Discussion Topic |
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stefanfischer
climber
Germany
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 16, 2012 - 05:13am PT
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Just seen this video - it shows that the Yosemite finish, when applied to the bowline, can just open up the bowline - I don't think it's safe to climb with it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dj5Y3h1AEI
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Jul 16, 2012 - 10:15am PT
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I climbed exclusively with a bowline tied off with a grapevine for the loose end. Always felt good.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jul 16, 2012 - 10:41am PT
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I just spent a good long time poking around in some knot test videos. I won't link them all here since it's a lot of material to wade through.
The general consensus is that bowlines have a greater likelihood of untying, are harder to inspect. Fig-eights are considered "safer" - mostly because they are still good even if you tie them partially or sloppy, but a "properly" tied bowline with a Yosemite finish is not the death-knot pictured in that video. I will say some of the tests seem to favor a regular backup knot or double-loop bowline(finish knot on the bight-side) as a "safer" finish over the Yosemite finish.
I read one report that German climbing competitions only allow a direct Fig-8 tie in after a climber was killed from a bowline coming undone. They didn't specify what kind of finish was used on that particular bowline.
That being said.. the video you posted is somewhat flawed. A Yosemite bowline.. tied tidy and correct and tight is still a bowline.. The video fails to show a correct tightened knot, and also fails to ever show the backup knot that is always tied. Tie one correctly with the strands side by side and look at it... I'm doing it now and I see the bowline still in tact.
The only way to replicate that "failing Yosemite bowline" is to physically loosen the knot and push the doubled back loop through the original loop. Of course.. it's technically possible for this to happen, but the knot would look really sloppy and incorrect from the start and a normal person would retie it if it looked that way. A new, stiff, dry-rope tied incorrectly could definitely untie itself. The video also fails to demonstrate force on the load-strand only.
So could it fail ?: sure- any knot can if tied incorrectly or really sloppy or loose. IMO 1000's of people tie in that way every day and they aren't dropping off the mountains like flies.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:04am PT
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The bowline is a popular knot with sailors precisely because it is easy to
untie after it is weighted. BITD, before harnesses, I never saw or heard of
one coming undone. We always backed them up with two half-hitches.
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stefanfischer
climber
Germany
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2012 - 11:07am PT
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In response to "justthemaid":
well, it all depend on what you mean with "tied in correctly". For me, if it's threaded correctly, it's correct. All that's left is to tighten it. Correctly threaded, and then tightened --> means the knot is correct.
Yet the video shows that you can thread the Yosemite correctly, tighten it (in one specific order of tugs), and mess it up to a point where there's not even a bowline underneath.
Then, even if you have a stopper, you're not safe. The stopper is basically the only knot that's holding you.
It is practical - it happened to me too while trying to tie the Yosemite. Of course, the knot seems a bit different, but just a little bit. And no one that ties themselves in is used to the fact that the order of tugging is significant for the correctness of the knot.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:16am PT
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I'm with Skip on this one. Anyone who "ties" a knot -- any knot -- that way is headed for trouble.
A properly tied bowline with grapevine stopper is not going to come loose.
That video is pretty silly.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:27am PT
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I've used that Knott (dbl bowline and single)quite a lot in the past 40yrs and yes I've had it come untied in the single mode with the Yo finish. It is a knott that demands your attension and because it's so simple, it is very easy to screw up, the fig 8 is probaly safer.
That said Lynn Hill was using a fig 8 when she fell 80' to the deck while lowering from the chains, she had forgotten to finish the knott. The lesson here? uuuummm, not sure. . .
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:29am PT
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Yet the video shows that you can thread the Yosemite correctly, tighten it (in one specific order of tugs), and mess it up to a point where there's not even a bowline underneath.
He never ties the knot correctly IMO.
He twice ties it in the start- both times with the strands lose and not tidy. It's hard to describe in words without dragging out my camera and posting some pictures, but I would have straightened up the redoubled strand into a different finish position than he shows. He tightens with "a specific order of tugs" as you say that causes the loops to invert. Sure... it technically can happen, but in real life you tie the bowline first... then back it up afterwards - unlike that video. Once the orginal loop is tight and the weight is on the load-strand, that inversion is highly unlikely. The third demo with the rubber bands you can clearly see that he has to physically push the redoubled loop throught the original loop to make the knot fail.
The Lesson? It doesn't matter what knot you use. Just pay attention to finishing it completely and correctly
...and yup - your fig-8 is way more foolproof so stick to that if you have doubts.
PS: I normally tie in with a fig-8 BTW.. I use a bowline on our double ropes which are skinny and difficult to untie if you use a Fig-8.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:37am PT
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Wow, who even knows how to tie a bowline?
I have no idea.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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Did Lynn tie a completed figure 8 but without the backup? And that failed? Or was the knot itself a problem? She must remember. If the figure 8 is not bombproof we need to know it.
The Yosemite finish? No way I would try to deal with all those
"If you do this exactly rights". Why?
Bowline is essential for towing a car. Never use anything else.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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Greg- I can tie about 10 types of bowlines.
BTW: When's your next one- handed knot-tying competition?
You might as well just send me the prize now.
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coondogger
Trad climber
NH
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:47am PT
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I thought the primary reason bowlines took second place to the figure 8 is because you tie one easily identified knot that doesn't come undone.
Everyone so far has said you need a second secure knot to ensure a bowline doesn't untie itself.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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Jstan,
Lynn was wearing a open Jacket and distacted while tying her Knott. She did not Follow thur the Fig 8, she only threaded the start of Knott. When she weighted her rig at the anchors the end pulled thru and 80' of airmailed Lynne hit the deck.
In other words, always check your knott. Like this Guy, gotta say he does look, cool. . .
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:52am PT
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Been climbing in Yosemite most of my life, never heard of a Yosemite bowline, therefore, never used one.
Sorry.
Figure 8 for me.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:55am PT
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The figure eight is a VERY dangerous knot, JStan. There are hundreds of reports of if failing, being the go-to knot for gym leading, every hour.
One time I tied my figure eight, then untied it - it came right out.
Freaky. Don't untie your knots when climbing, guys, they can't hold you that way.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:55am PT
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Thanks bullwinkle. Had me worried for a moment.
Oh and Jeff. Is the tree in front of the hole or behind? Norton asked me to explain the bowline to him and I want to be sure I have it right. If you could.....
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Some Random Guy
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Jul 16, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
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I've used that Knott (dbl bowline and single)quite a lot in the past 40yrs and yes I've had it come untied in the single mode with the Yo finish.
ur gonna die!
The Lesson? dressed and stressed?!?!?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 16, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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I'm guessing the technique has been around as long as knots have been, but when did people start calling it the "Yosemite finish?"
When some dude who learned it in Yosemite showed it to someone else....
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ruppell
climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
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Double bowline with a double fishermans as a backup under the bowline. Am I the only one that backs it up that way? Everything I'm finding on google shows the back up placed above the bowline. Why? All that does is make the knot longer. The compact nature of the knot the way I use it is great. Thoughts?
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
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^^Yup, exactly^^. One of the 5 reasons I think a bowline is better than a fig8.
2. easily adjustable knot, 3. won't lock up after a fall, 4. Falls apart if tied backwards (w/o back-up), 5. no "second" knot to untie before pulling the rope.
Nuf said. I have been using the bowline exclusively for 15 years without incident.
Edit: but I have never used the Yosemite finish...
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jul 16, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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That is disturbing!
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ruppell
climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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Jim
I must have been doing it wrong for all this time. LOL
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Jul 16, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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I have used the bowline for tying in for over 30 years & never had a problem with it. As Erik mentioned, it is easy to untie after holding a big load, and it never leaves an unwanted knot on the end that can accidently get left in & screw up the pull of the rappel ropes.
I just do a half fisherman's to secure it from getting loose.
Most of my partners use this knot too. The knot shown in the video is whacked! You can make anything unsafe if you do it wrong, and IMHO the finishing method depicted it that video is just plain nuts.
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JBoydston
climber
Deep South
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Jul 16, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
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**WARNING!!! THIS JUST IN!!!
KNOTS INTENTIONALLY TIED POORLY AREN'T SAFE**
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
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The moron tied it wrong that's why.
Can't these guys even "THINK".
I used the "Yosemite bowline" for 30 years and never had it come apart.
The video is all wrong ......
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 16, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
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I couldn't follow that German feller. I don't tie knots like that so his example is pretty much useless to me.
Me too.
I've only been climbing, falling and big walling for 37 years, but all my figure 8's have come untied after climbing,.....so far
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 16, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
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lol
one of the most useful and most widely used knots in the last several centuries of world history.
adopted for recreational alpinism in the 19th century.
declared unsafe in the 21st.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol
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Jul 16, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
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Tie your bowline on clove hitch and be done with it.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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The thread title should read:
The Yosemite bowline isn't safe for climbing if you often mis-tie and never inspect your knots for climbing...after all
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 16, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
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You just have to back the bowline up with half a grapevine or half hitches. Weighing 210 when I was climbing a lot, the bowline was far easier to untie. But for walls, when I never wanted the knot to budge, I always used the "Flemmish Bend," or double figure 8.
JL
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jul 16, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
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Here's a vid of Big Jim demonstrating its application for YOSAR juniors:
I like how he uses both hands to tie a one-handed bowline, thats a good tip
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 16, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
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Stefan seems to have gotten a generally hostile response for his trouble, which I think is unfortunate. Many people use the knot he tested, and I think it is fair to say that no one had a clue that it was possible for the knot to transform in this way. He discovered a potentially hidden danger and did the right thing by going out of his way to publicize it.
In the video, a very loose knot is collapsed into something, which, after further manipulation, is seen to be "untied." There is nothing new about this sort of thing. The ordinary bowline, if tied loosely, can be collapsed into a slip knot with the rope end simply threaded through the loop, surely as bad an outcome as the one in the video. Yet this topologically equivalent but catastrophic configuration is not held against the bowline, and is in fact promoted by some as a method of tying it!
The point is that just because you can manipulate a loose knot into a bad state does not, by itself, mean the original knot is bad. So the important and interesting question is this: suppose we tie the bowline with Yosemite finish the "wrong" way as in the video, but dress it and tighten it with the same care we'd use with any other climbing knot. Does this dressed and tightened knot collapse catastrophically into something that is "untied?"
I asked this question on the UKC forum thread on this same topic,
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=513200.
This post here is an edited and rewritten version of my post there:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=513200&v=1#x6950860.
There was an almost immediate response from Jim Titt
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=513200&v=1#x6950948,
in which he says
Tied with the Yosemite finish loop pulled up through and tightened and with the original bowline loop slack the knot locks up and continues to tighten. I stopped at 6kN as that is all I´m set up for at the moment. There appears no possibility that the tensioned rope will straighten as it has formed a half hitch around two other parts.
We'd be happier with a test to 12 kN, which would be the maximum allowable tension a rope could develop in a factor 1.78 fall according to UIAA standards, but most ropes are well under that number although not down to 6 kN yet.
So what it looks like to me is that if you tie the Yosemite finish the "wrong" way (which is easy to avoid), you get a different configuration which, assuming proper dressing and tightening (which has to be assumed in any case for all knots) is still reliable and is not, as suggested by the manipulations of the loosened version, "untied." But since Jim's equipment can't exceed 6 kN at present, we don't have what I would call a definitive statement on this yet.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 16, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
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I think you DO need a backup for a bowline or double bowline. A veteran climber in England was killed when his bowline came undone. http://www.rockandice.com/news/1909-bowline-blamed-for-death I can see that happening: e.g. you take a fall and catch the rabbit where he's going around the tree (that part of the rope) and you could pull the knot apart.
I never used the Yosemite finish for the same reason as DMT, it makes it hard to visually inspect the knot.
I use a double overhand on the loop like this:
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 16, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
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I like simple things that are hard to screw up. The best thing about the Figure 8 is that its pretty ovbious if its tied wrong. With the bowline I had to learn about a rabbit going around a tree and into a hole, proof in itself that its not obvious.
I learned to finish the figure 8 a weird way, though, that cleans it up and keeps the knot out of the way. After tying it, send the end down back through the center of the knot in tbe most obvious way - its the lower of the two loops of the 8. Hard to explain without a picture, but the end of the rope then follows the loop you've tied, and you tie it off there with the fisherman's knot. The remaining end of the rope then heads down towards your feet out of the way. I dont know if this has a name, but I learned if from a British climber and its always been how I tied in.
Fet - I finish my figure 8 just like in the bowline picture you just posted.
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Jul 16, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
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I'm with Largo on this one. I always use an 8 for multi pitch routes when I know I'll be staying tied in and a bowline on a TR or sport pitch when the line will more likely be weighted . There are two lessons I've learned though that I recommend strongly and practice religously. These are double check the knot when just a few feet off the ground (I give it a good tug)and when lowering always grab the line on the belayer side of the anchor until you are sure the belayer hasn't taken you off belay or some such foolishness. Believe me it happens...
Chappy
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Barbarian
Trad climber
New and Bionic too!
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Jul 16, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
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I'm an old dog, and like most old dogs, I keep to my old tricks. I've tied in with a Bowline w/Yosemite finish for close to 40 years, taken a bunch of falls, some short; some long, and I've never had the know fail. Of course, I have never failed to properly pull tight or back up my knot.
Bottom line: all knots, regardless of type, that are not tightened or backed up are more than likely unsafe.
Be safe....check your partner's harness and knot and let him/her/it double check yours.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 16, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
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People still use bowlines? I thought they went out with the swami belt.
I never finish knots, I just make sure they are well tied with an adequate tail.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 16, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
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People still use bowlines? I thought they went out with the swami belt.
Only people who fall a lot, so I can see why you'd be 'out of the loop' as it were.
P.S. And why you'd corrupt the basic visual pattern of a bowline with a yosemite finish is beyond me - provides nowhere near enough benefits for destroying the ability to simply visually check for the essential bowline pattern.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
New and Bionic too!
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Jul 16, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
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Yes....they seem strangely silent on the issue.
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jahwise
Trad climber
santa fe, nm
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Jul 16, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
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When I use a Bowline I use it like this backed up with a double overhand or fisherman's style knot. I don't consider the "Yosemite Finish" to be a backup knot, its just another loop in the original Bowline. From the video in the original post we can see how this has a strong potential for failure if tightened in a wrong sequence. Using the double overhand as a backup creates a closed loop in the system and would have to be untied first before the Bowline could come undone.
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jahwise
Trad climber
santa fe, nm
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Jul 16, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
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jahwise
Trad climber
santa fe, nm
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Jul 16, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
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This one is a fun one and has some good applications in the guiding vocation.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 16, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
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tobacco
widely used in the last several centuries of world history.
started mass production and widespread popularity in the 19th century.
declared unsafe in the late 20th.
lol
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
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rgold: I think the presentation has a lot to do with the negative response.
The blanket statement of the OP, combined with the sloppy knot video does not present a strong argument for the discerning.
Additionally, the whole "finish that (potentially) ruins the beautiful, simple function of a bowline" thing really raised my ire as a long-time user.
The point is valid, but it seemed dismissive.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
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I'd take the tail, jahwise, back around the DOUBLE loop(lacking) back through the "around the tree" loop & tie a fisherman against the main line.
Instant double backup.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
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I think the presentation has a lot to do with the negative response.
more likely the "banned in germany" brand. sort of like, "banned in wisconsin."
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:09pm PT
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I pretty much only use a double Bow Line backed up with a double overhand (1/2 of a double fishermans knot). Right there with Levy, Mr E, et al, as to why. I just tried to mess it up like that guy did and could not replicate it with the Double Bow Line. Maybe I'm not smart enough.
Prod.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
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Ah, yes...the old bowline-on-a-coil. I remember it well, and have used it on occasion throughout the years...eats up a lot of rope, though.
A loooong time ago, it used to be SOP as the backup belay for rappels on Outward Bound courses...in the event the student's harness fails...(!!?). Funny how things that made sense at the time now seem so ridiculous.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
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I sometimes use a follow thru 8 when I'm climbing with people who don't use a bowline to make them more comfortable, but I use the bowline I posted most of the time. It's not just easier to untie, for me it's easier to tie. For me it's faster, it's easier to get the length just right to have a double overhand back up with a few inches of tail, and as mentioned you don't have to remember to take out a knot that could get stuck when you are pulling the rope.
But the 8 IS prettier.
A knot check for me is often asking my experienced partners "good knot?" and they check themselves. It's really the double check to make sure the knot was done right that is important, not a separate person checking it. If I'm by myself at an anchor on a multipitch and I tie in again I'll double check myself, just before I weight the rope. And if I'm at a different anchor from my partner on a multipitch and I know they have retied in I'll call up "good knot?".
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jul 16, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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I'd take the tail, jahwise, back around the DOUBLE loop(lacking) back through the "around the tree" loop & tie a fisherman against the main line.
Instant double backup.
This is THE bowline knot to use, Skully. Ruppell, Levy, Jahwise etc. get it.
Do the research - the double bowline with the double fisherman's back-up is THE BEST bowline knot, and among the best when weight tested. Don't make me pull the links up.
Keep crankin' Brother!
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Jul 17, 2012 - 01:24am PT
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use to climb wearing a hangman's noose so as to lessen the falls,
like motorcycles, ride faster than you can fall and you will never crash,
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stefanfischer
climber
Germany
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2012 - 04:53am PT
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The Lesson? dressed and stressed?!?!?
The lesson for me is use one of the other knots, for which it doesn't matter in which order you dress and set them.
Don't use the only tie-in knot we know of that breaks down if you tighten it in the wrong way after threading it correctly.
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Jul 17, 2012 - 08:46am PT
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If the point of the bowline is that it is easy to untie, why would I want to use that as my tie-in knot?
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jul 17, 2012 - 09:15am PT
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If the point of the bowline is that it is easy to untie, why would I want to use that as my tie-in knot?
Gary, I'm guessing you haven't been jumping on your 5.13 proj. lately. :)
For real.. The folks I know that tie in with a bowline are generally doing it because:
a) They are taking lead falls off a sport climbing project and don't like having to un-weld the fig-8 with a screwdriver every time they untie.
b) Tying into really skinny or double/twin ropes that can be difficult to untie or..
c) They always tie in with a bowline because that's the way Royal Robbins taught them. ... so piss off you Fig-8 weenies and get off my lawn! or,
d) You are someone like my husband - who just likes bowlines better.
@ Stefan: I actually agree.. If you choose to use a bowline and are worried about greater safety... it's better to stick with a dressing that is easier to inspect for accuracy.
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Jul 17, 2012 - 09:39am PT
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Gary, I'm guessing you haven't been jumping on your 5.13 proj. lately. :)
It's like you're omniscient! ;-)
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thedogfather
Trad climber
Somewhere near Red Rocks
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Jul 17, 2012 - 10:18am PT
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For sport climbing we use the trace through bowline. Easy and fast to tie, redundant (if the second one loosens, you still are tied in with a single bowline) and super easy to untie. As a side note on this knot, we do the 24 hours of Horseshoe Hell every year where you climb around 100 routes each and lower off from draws after each route. Our forearms would be toast if we had to untie a tightened figure 8 after each lead or, heaven forbid, after a lead fall.
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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Jul 17, 2012 - 10:36am PT
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^ That's how I've always done it. Bombproof.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Jul 17, 2012 - 10:40am PT
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Because Richard Gold wanted it pulled all the way (well he wanted 12kN)I set up my other tester this morning. I couldn´t get the 12kN as the rope broke first, it was a fairly old 9mm half rope.
The first critical point is that for the knot to collapse is that the loaded strand has to straighten and no longer form a hitch. This can only occur if the knot is loosely dressed as otherwise the `around the tree´ loop prevents this. By loosely dressed I mean there is visible slack in the upper bend, this is looser than I would normally tighten a knot and I´m not a fanatic about correctly dressing knots at the best of times.
If we tie the knot loose (and incorrectly dressed naturally)it collapses to the aptly named `mess´ as shown in the video. As one keeps pulling this turns into a curious form of Prusik type knot around the loaded strand. On the rope I was testing with (9mm half rope) this slid at 2.3kN down to the tape loop (two layers 16mm nylon). When it hits the tape it remains as it is and continues to tighten as a slip knot which eventually failed at 9.4kN which seems quite an reasonable value for a somewhat older rope of this diameter. I tested a standard bowline with stopper to give a baseline and this failed at 7.9kN so one can reasonably say that the collapsed Yosemite version appears to be stronger than a normal bowline.
At no stage does there seem any potential for the mess to change into an 8 and this in fact seems impossible without loosening and manipulating the knot. As mentioned earlier in the thread (on UKC) this also seemed a perfectly adequate knot anyway (this was a previous test where I only took the various stages up to 6kN).
Ring pulled there seems no difference between the two ways (the correctly dressed Yosemite and the loop pulled up through variant) as they broke at 19.8kN and 20.1kN respectively. The tape is starting to cut at this point as well.
Personally I use the rethreaded bowline pictured directly above and this was the knot used at the other end of the test pieces since it is stronger, it didn´t break, turn inside out, fall apart or anything else exciting.
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Jul 17, 2012 - 11:02am PT
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I switched to an EDK (flat overhand) for joining rappel ropes after a partner showed me it and researching it online - bowline tie ins just don't have an advantage for me yet (I don't like to take falls on lead), but this link I saw at MP seems pretty neat:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 17, 2012 - 11:17am PT
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This is all I ever use, except I do the Kansas finish, which makes it a lot stronger and slower.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 17, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
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Thanks so much Jim for working this out!
The internet being what it is, I imagine we'll be hearing about the "problems" with the Yosemite finish bowlines for years, although it is now clear that even if you somehow get the finishing loop in the "wrong" position, the resulting knot is fine and is no more "untied" than an ordinary bowline is, given that the ordinary bowline can, when tied loosely, also be collapsed into an untied configuration.
I agree that the rethreaded bowline is the best tie-in knot, although we know from many commercial examples that the best technology doesn't always become the most universally adopted, and the figure-8 is the Microsoft Office of the knot world for now.
The one problem with the rethreaded bowline is that if you use half ropes, then you have to fit four strands through your harness tie-in points, which is getting a little crowded. For this reason, I've stuck with ordinary bowlines.
I use the Yosemite finish because (on multipitch routes) I clip my belay device to the rope loop, not the harness belay loop, an approach I learned some time ago from BD engineer Chris Harmston on the old rec.climbing. The Yosemite finish allows you to put the grapvine stopper knot outside the rope loop rather than inside, leaving a cleaner place for clipping the belay device.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 17, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
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In a message up thread a few people thought that Lynn Hill had begun to tie in with a figure eight. This is incorrect. In a conversation I had with her a couple of months, we were discussing the "re-threaded" bowline and I asked her about her accident.
The key to Lynn's accident was that there was no knot. She was going to tie a bowline and had threaded the rope through the tie-in loops when she was distracted. When she started climbing the rope was simply threaded through the tie-ins. When I asked he if she thought she would have had that accident if she had been using a fig-8 she thought perhaps not. She thinks that if she had been using a fig-8 that she or her partner may have seen the unthreaded first knot hanging below her jacket and been warned.
Regardless, I'm with JTitt and Rgold. I use a re-threaded bowline. I like it because it's easier to untie after weighting it, which I seem to do quite often these days, and, because it's more complicated to tie, I pay more attention to the process of tying it.
It's kind of a Zen thing for me as I'm much more engaged in the process of tying the knot than I ever have been before.
Climb safe,
Mal
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Jul 17, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
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Maldaly;-"Regardless, I'm with JTitt and Rgold. I use a re-threaded bowline. I like it because it's easier to untie after weighting it, which I seem to do quite often these days, and, because it's more complicated to tie, I pay more attention to the process of tying it.
It's kind of a Zen thing for me as I'm much more engaged in the process of tying the knot than I ever have been before."
Nicely put, one problem with coming from the original bowline generation is that we probably learnt it too well, all that practicing tying it one handed behind ones back and so on combined with 20 years of sailing means it is just too easy to tie without thinking, the re-thread is just impossible to do without looking and thinking. And the most elegant of knots when it is finished as well which is nice!
Richards point with double ropes is a good one, I revert to the 8 then but have no intention of falling off anyway! At the speed ropes are getting thinner this won´t be a problem soon anyway, my latest halves are 7.8mm and the new twins from Edelrid are 6.9mm!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 17, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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Buncha pussies can't untie a figure eight.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 17, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
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I love Jeremy....
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Manjusri
climber
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Jul 17, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
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How about the double bowline with follow through? This is the knot I've been using for years. Allows you to tie the fisherman's above the bowline. I've had my fisherman's untie from too much humping the rock and never had this one lose its shape.
edit: better link
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Guangzhou
Trad climber
Asia, Indonesia, East Java
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Jul 17, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
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Like this person posted, this is the knot I use. (Trad and Sport) I've been using is for a couple decades now and have no issues with it.
Cheers
Eman
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 17, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
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hey there say, stephanfisher and all...
yep, i don't climb... but i sure appreciate all the shares of knowledge etc, in this thread...
thanks for sharing...
i was curious, too, how the 'term' came to be...
the posts are many here, so perhaps i will see the answer here,....
*i liked the part how the one guy had 'used the expression' but NOT known where yosemite was, :)
learning about knots and danger when not done right, is always a good share...
well, off to read some of this...
:)
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 17, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
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The Yosemite bowline isn't meant for 11mm ropes.
It's for 10mm and below .....
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jul 17, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
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That is good beta, WBraun!
And maybe the following also applies:
Mountaineers: Use the 8. It is safe, proven and even if you tie it wrong, it mostly will save your ass.
Big Wallers: Your call, the 8 will weld, but if your life is dependent on a knot for days/weeks under many varieties of loading, find what works best.
People that actually take whippers doing free climbing: Find something else that doesn't weld when you fall, or bring an appropriate tool.
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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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Jul 19, 2012 - 11:09am PT
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So, A lot of people jumped on this and really thought it was a stupid concern.
However, recently I saw this exact flip happen. The knot is not being tied 'incorrectly' there is just an incorrect order of strand tightning (which leads to pass through end pulling ontop of the base strand).
It was not in a climbing application, per say, but on a fixed line, my partner and I were both really confused. He tied it, I looked at it, all looked well. I got onto the line, and a 3rd partner then came in and saw the bizarre knot he described as a half hitch, or double half hitch, or something like that. We were all confused.
The knot did hold fine though.
Good info throughout the rest of the thread. I do feel that there is a chance of this occurring (because I saw it happen in one scenario.).
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jul 19, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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The Yosemite bowline isn't meant for 11mm ropes.
It's for 10mm and below .....
Other than here, where is that written? I've never heard that, it does make sense though.
Prod.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jul 19, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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Chappy taught me the double bowlin at the apes wall in the early 90's.
I have used it ever since.
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knudeNoggin
climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:27am PT
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Wow, and Maldaly rec'd THIS thread in the Taco as "intelligent discussion"
vs. RC.com's?!??
First, no one corrected this old myth --save Lynn Hill herself, in her book:
> Lynn Hill was using a fig 8 when she fell 80' to the deck while lowering
> from the chains, she had forgotten to finish the knott.
> The lesson here? uuuummm, not sure. . .
How about : Check your facts? Lynn wrote that she simply tied NO KNOT,
but had intended to use her usual tie-in, a bowline. She wore a jacket that
hid this tragic condition, rope threaded into harness but untied, and she
was distracted during her tie-in.
To the OP, yes, the video shows how mis-tying can occur with what
might strike the tyer as beneficial tightening of the knot. The community
ought to welcome the insight rather than belittle it --presentation notwithstanding.
(Interestingly, the first edition of a widely distributed book On Rope has
the mistied YoBowl on its Ch.3 KNOTS cover page (!). Yeah, maybe that was
*artistic license* or something --made it to presss, whatever.
In most cases (nearly all, actually), the bowline is presented with the wrong
face to the viewer ; consider how the sheet bend is presented --THAT is
the face of the bowline (looking so alike, after all) that should be shown,
as from that perspective one can better see many of the interesting things
that can be done in extending the knot, and in the basic knot (the simple,
straight, in-around-tree-back-out paths (the "bight") of the tail are easy
to comprehend, compared to the loop of the mainline).
There is a simple variation of the bowline that uses a tail-tuck akin
to what is used in the YoBowl but more directly --without requiring
the (often reluctantly stiff) rope to turn around the single diameter
of the eye leg; and this variation is immune to the mis-formation
shown in the video. (See attached photo (if all goes well) of this knot,
tied in the bight.)
*kN*
ps: "half a dbl. fish" / "(half a) grapevine" ...
There IS a name for that knot : >>strangle knot<<.
Good for binding ends of ropes (w/mason line, fishline) to prevent (un)raveling;
acceptable to tie off a coil of rope.
And de rigeur for securing the tail in many kernmantle applications.
"STRANGLE" oughta be catchy enuff, and shorter than the imposters above.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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This is what I use when it's a race to the crag, seconds count, and someone else is about to snake my route:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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Wow, and Maldaly rec'd THIS thread in the Taco as "intelligent discussion"
vs. RC.com's?!??
First, no one corrected this old myth --save Lynn Hill herself, in her book:
> Lynn Hill was using a fig 8 when she fell 80' to the deck while lowering
> from the chains, she had forgotten to finish the knott.
> The lesson here? uuuummm, not sure. . .
the lesson here is to read the thread before posting yr foot in yr mouth.
for a start, try re-reading just mal's posts, you know, the ones you're actually citing. i'd cut-and-paste it for you, but it seems like you need the intellectual exercise. see if you can find it on your own.
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knudeNoggin
climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 21, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
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try re-reading just mal's posts, you know, the ones you're actually citing. i'd cut-and-paste it for you, but it seems like you need the intellectual exercise
Actually, I'm alluding to his RC.com post,
which led me here at a time when there were 4pp of the thread.
Yep, missed one --his--; thanks for being partially helpful.
When I asked he if she thought she would have had that accident if she had been using a fig-8 she thought perhaps not. She thinks that if she had been using a fig-8 that she or her partner may have seen the unthreaded first knot hanging below her jacket and been warned.
This is interesting, in that Lynn's case mistakenly cited as using the Fig.8 eyeknot
is sometimes given as a reason NOT to use the 8 --with it's *half-tied* state, of
the initial 8 awaiting the "re-threading" completion--, thinking that THAT is a
danger,
versus the bowline's being either completed or knotless, no half-way state.
(Frankly, I think that had she intended the fig.8 she just as well could have
been interrupted with the start of re-threading and the knotted part would
be out-of-view.)
*kN*
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Bump
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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interesting discussion. I have a friend in his 60's who is really into ice climbing. He prefers to tie in using the grapevine. See the shots below. Anybody else use this or have any comentary? The knot is tied into the belay loop just for this example. Normally it would be tied in just like the figure 8.
And dressed
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jstan
climber
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Some of us climbed when there generally was no one around other than the two people climbing. That being the case I don't know what others did in those days. For my own part I STFU when my partner was tying in and preparing to climb. That's not a good time to ask them also to carry on a conversation.
Crowd climbing has its own special danger. Mind you this was not universally appreciated even during the 60's. I once had a second who was trying to converse while I was at a hard move. My request for quiet was not appreciated.
I know it is not the general practice today to be quiet while someone is climbing. Climbing has become just another social interaction.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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The one and a half fisherman's bend is my go to tie-in. It is a wonderful way to tie in when you don't plan on getting air time. It is a very clean knot, very solid, easy to finish, has a low profile, and is easy to assess as to whether it has been correctly tied or not.
Skcreidc, the example you have there has to many turns on both sides of the knot. Use an overhand on one end and a double fisherman's, or grapevine, on the other.
With climbs I plan on getting air, I use the bowline with an overhand or fisherman's keeper.
Learned both from the '72 Chouinard catalog. http://climbaz.com/chouinard72/chouinard.html
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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interesting thread, but everyone knows that "climbing isn't safe" even though we seem to survive doing it...
one of the accidents I was involved in this last spring could probably have been avoided if I had asked a simple question of my leader: "don't you think you should put another piece of pro in?"
I didn't ask it because the leader was experienced, the climb was not technically difficult, and we both are generally quiet while the other is climbing.
While I am not sure that asking that question would have changed anything, I should have asked it...
vis-a-vis the OP, if you're tying in you've got a partner, it's not a bad habit for the partner to just ask "what does your knot look like?" before letting the leader launch off on the first pitch. Any time your partner ties in you might just ask that simple question.
I now do it in the gym, it can be freaky for the climber, but at least we both get to look at the knot and make sure it's finished, and certainly that it looks like a correct knot. It doesn't much matter which knot it is if it's tied correctly.
Having two pairs of eyes check is a good way of making sure. And it may seem somewhat "uncool," but it is mostly not cool to spend so much time in the hospital and in physical therapy recovering from the consequences of not having finished the knot if you're so lucky to have that opportunity.
Bottom line: just ask your partner to show you what they tied in with before you put them on belay.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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tagain and again,
redundancy
Pre flight check list:
check that your partner is tied in.
check that you are tied in.
is the belay safe?
the gear multi directional?
do your own check, ask that question,
communicate
do not let your partnerleave the ground or belay
with out the Heads up "Did you check your knot?"
A light grab on the harness and a" hey that looks...."
has saved lives
be the best risk manager and...". stop ((check the tie in points)) drop((hold and let go of the anchor points, as a light tug,visual check , physical check))and then roll((climb on))
rinse and repeat!
the grape vine tie in, is old school European. It was used when chest wrap harnesses were worn.and the leader did not fall.
The knot is fine and simple. It does weld and freeze((not prone to coming loose)) It can be evaluated at a glance.
the idea of standardizing the knots and Dis-use of the various types of rigging came with the mainstreaming of the sport.((80~85?))
Learning the Ropes to keep yourself alive took a turn and for the good................. K.I.S.S. Keep it simple ((st00pid))
One Main tie in knot: the follow thru figure8
What knot is best for any given situation can lead to much debate.
For working a route a knot that can be untied after repetitive loading is desirable.
When following, going second after a wait, CHECK your tie in! make it tight, whatever knot you use.
I can remember when some of the old timers at the Mountain House used Grape vines, over hands and square knots.
Using a 'Larks Head' tie in?for the middle of a three climber party? yikes!!
My first trip up Lake View(5.4) was in such a group with a Krist.R. and a Hans K.
I am sure that I was safely tied in. As a precocious youth I was proud to show off my skill and knot knowledge and tied an in line figure 8 on a line.Mrs. Raubenhiemer was quick to point out that the knot was better for mountain travel with rope coils over the shoulder,and that the simple girth hitch (larks head or clove)) was fine for the person climbing second in a party of three!?
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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This is a cool and informative thread. Sorry about the drift, but I appreciate the feedback.
Mark Force said Skcreidc, the example you have there has to many turns on both sides of the knot. Use an overhand on one end and a double fisherman's, or grapevine, on the other.
Thanks for the info and correcting me on how to tie it. I was trying to do it from memory and I wasn't quite sure; I've only been useing the figure 8. My friend says the overhand with a grapevine comes apart easier when the rope is frozen up after ice climbing and after taking a fall, so it is interesting to hear the opposite.
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Miltdawg
Trad climber
Louisville, CO
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I switched to the double Bowline knot to tie into my harness years(10+) ago after not being able to untie my figure8 knot after a big fall. It was a friends rope and I nearly had to cut the f*#ker to get the 8 off my harness. INSTEAD of following the end through the DB-Bowline(like WheeliePete suggest in his video...) and ending up with a cumbesome "stopper" knot above the Bowline(that gets in the way sometimes), I use the "stopper" knot below the Bowline on the loop and cinch it up tight to the bottom of the DB-Bowline. Now your tail gets tucked into your harness along side the loop of rope and you never have to see the tail while your climbing. This makes a much smaller knot than the 8 with a back-up or the DB-Bowline with the "stopper" knot on the top. I can tie or untie this knot with my eyes closed and it is very quick and easy. As with any knot, tightening each leg of the knot if very important. Figure 8 has 4 legs to tighten and the Bowline has only 3 legs...
People will leave the starter 8 on the end of the rope for courtesy and I will untie it and tie the DB-Bowline because that's what I'm used to now. Tying a figure 8 is a pain in the ass and I believe there is a proper way to dress the figure 8 KNOT(that takes extra time). Just "following through" any old way is improper! Your life line should always be the bottom of the figure 8 knot. So when you fall, your lifeline cinch's the entire 8. 95% of people I see tie the 8, do not know this fact and do not dress the 8 properly. Usually their lifeline is NOT the bottom of the 8 but the next level up from the bottom of the 8. NOW, when loading the lifeline, the bottom of the 8 doesn't do jack sh#t and it really isn't a proper figure 8 at all...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I use the double knotted bowline as seen in Mark Force's pic on the previous page from the Chouinard catalog, and I think what miltdawg is describing. It's sooo much easier to untie after being weighted, and faster for me to tie, vs an 8.
Unless I'm climbing with folks used to the rewoven 8 and ill sometimes use that so they can inspect it / make them feel comfortable.
I've never used the Yosemite finish because it makes it hard to inspect the bowline and I don't like messing with the integrity of the bowline but putting another rope into it.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Dec 10, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
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All you guys bitching about figure 8's getting too tight when you fall on them
Fall too much.
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F10
Trad climber
Bishop
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Dec 10, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
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After ditching the bowline on a coil and switching to a swami I started using the one and a half fishermans to tie in. After all it was in the Chouinard catalog. Decades later I started using the Double Bowline with a fisherman back up. Not sure about the Yosemite bowline, never used it.
It has never let me down, and is easy to untie after being weighted.
Above all, double check what ever you do !!
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