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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 21, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
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During it's closure over the last few years Summit Rock (in the Santa Cruz Mountains) has become extensively tagged. Since Summit will be reopening at some point in the not to distant future, us locals would like some suggestions on the best way to remove graffiti from the rock.
It's sandstone NOT granite.
Anyone have any sandstone graffiti removal experience is encouraged to reply! Hell if you've got a magic solution that actually turns out to work I'll hook you up with a 12 pack in the valley some time!
kev
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
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Thanks - it looks interesting (it being TSW).
I'd still like to hear from someone who's actually used it on sandstone though.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
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Yeah it does look good but I'd like to hear from someone who has
ACTUALLY USED IT ON SANDSTONE.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 21, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
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Put the head of a tagger on a pike with a sign.
Food for thought.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Mar 21, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
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Sandpaper and elbow grease?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 21, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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eat it, man.
cvnts are for eating.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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survival,
That'll make for some nasty slopers
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Mar 21, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
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Alright- I've got experience after battling Stoney Point (sandstone) taggers for a few years.
BTW: Here's the link to Dirt's old thread. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=203410&msg=801872#msg801872. Totally worth a read. He did a fair amount of removal in his day. Dirt was firmly in the strip-it camp. I've tried a bunch of things to get around the chemicals which he didn't necessarily agree with.
1st off.. is the graffiti sprayed on an actual climb? or just an eyesore where no-one actually touches it? I use different tactics depending on the placement.
There's several lines of attack:
1) Strip-it (chemically)
2) Paint it.
3) Sandblast it/Power-wash it.
4) Maidy's quick and easy (no paint)cover-up.
5) Leave it alone. Let the sun and wear take care of it.
6) Hire a sniper to kill taggers.
I've got a novel to write for you so I'll be back with details in a while.
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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Mar 21, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
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I've cleaned sandstone(Lizard's Mouth), and it was a pretty miserable affair. I used a bucket of water and a stiff wire brush.I couldn't remove it 100%, but I was able to diminish it to the point were it tended to blend in. I've used some aersol spray paint strippers on a limited basis. Works pretty well, but it's pretty harsh stuff and not the best thing to introduce to the surrounding area.
I've heard of some volunteers who would periodically use a trailer-mounted pressure washer and run a LONG hose. But still, the tagging has to be pretty close to a road for that to work. Does an awesome job, though.
I was afraid if the paint was allowed to remain taggers would add more. And in fact, over the last 6 months, in the areas that were not cleaned, that's exactly what happened. Dicks.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 21, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
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Neighborhood Watch, my bros!
We police the joint ourselves. It would be nice to get permission from the Law to do this. Park at CRSP or the Farm, and hike in. We wait for the as#@&%es to show and 'persuade them to leave'.
Once a presence is shown, they will leave. I'd be in on this. Sunset to Sunrise shifts on a rotating basis for a month would work wonders.
Groups of at least 2 equipped with baseball bats. Defensive measures only. Would be nice to get a conceal/carry permit for the job, but that may be harder.
This must stop. The LEO isn't stopping it.
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Gene
climber
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Mar 21, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
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I hear you Ron. Too bad the crag ain't in Florida.
g
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coastal_climber
Trad climber
British Columbia
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Mar 21, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
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water?
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
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P Ron's post is actually what i'd like to do, but I can't see myself climbing to much with chains around my ankles
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
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justthemaid - I feel like an idiot since i didn't find dirt's post. Thanks!
one of the thing's I'm worried about is how much of the stuff has seeped into the pores on the rock. F*#king taggers...
It sounds as if this is going to be a bit of a cluster f*#k but oh well it's got to get done.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Mar 21, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
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I've long believed that they should bring back the stocks as punishment for taggers. Let them piss on themselves instead of the environment.
OK, back to the OP. You have to decide if you want to "remove" it or make it less noticeable.
If the paint is on an actual route where people go/climb/touch it.. your options are limited.
1st recommendation is to just leave it alone. (Annoying- I know). The paint will actually wear off from traffic. If it is a bright color- the sun will fade it out considerably in the first year or two.
2nd recommendation is very light sandblasting. I charge up an air-tank that I can carry and have a small portable sandblasting nozzle. The air and sand run out quick, so it's really only useful on small areas to sort of "fade" the paint a bit. I let the climbers wear the rest off. Aggressive sandblasting is very destructive and not at all practical for outdoors anyhow.
Painting over it is a no-no. It just makes the climb slippery and sometimes looks worse than the graffiti.
Chemicals work, but are problematic since they are hard to remove completely and you don't want people touching it or putting their gear down in dirt that is full of the rinse-water.
If you choose a chemical remover you need to be fully dedicated to the clean-up required to make it safe for climbers.
If the graffiti is not on a route: you have more options.
Options:
1) Chemical Strippers. I recommend reading the link above for specific details how to use Remove-All. I won't repost it all here. I actually never found the TSW stuff locally so perhaps someone else can chime in on that brand.
I did a fair amount of research ( I don t remember all the brands) and pretty much anything that works is toxic. I ended up using the "Remove-All", which was since it is "safer" than your average stripper. That being said... it's still corrosive and stings if you get it on your skin so it may not be as eco-friendly as they claim.
Pros: It removes the paint without needing power-equipment.
Cons: It's a large time-commitment, you have to baby sit it and keep people away while it works, you have to haul a LOT of water in to clean it up. Toxic and difficult to clean off climbing routes IMO.
Working alone- I kinda gave up on strippers. It was just too difficult to find the time to do it correctly. If you have a crew this may be a more viable option.
Edit to add: Also, Stoney Point simply receives too much traffic touching every surface to risk the chemicals.
Other Options:
2)Paint it. I'm not personally a fan of this method. Heavy paint-over's are a no-no. They look awful and make climbs slippery. If you add a thick layer of paint, it's there forever.
I have actually seen a few good painted-cover-ups at Stoney which were done with a garden sprayer and watered down paint to sort of wash over it and make it less obvious. Doing this on small areas can work, but take the time to get a good color match.
3)Sandblasting and power-washing: These methods are controversial but effective. Either can carve up soft sandstone so extreme care needs to be taken. Permits are sometimes needed. Most places you can't get equipment in anyhow. A small hand-held sandblaster is the only option and again- is best just for partial removal on very small areas.
4)Maidy's quick and dirty cover-up method revealed : I only use this on non-climbs for a quick fix. Never at the base of a route.
Spray over the graffiti with spray adhesive or paint on some watered down Elmers glue (totally non-toxic). Pick up hand-fulls of dirt and toss it on the sticky surface. It's not always a 100% cover-up but it makes look a lot better and there's no trying to mix a matching paint color. You can alwys let it dry and add another coat. The glued-on sand looks natural. It isn't permanent and actually wears off after a while, but the great thing is that is takes some of the graffiti with it and can be redone quickly.
Edit to add: Dirtineye just rolled in his grave after this post BTW.
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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Mar 21, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
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Sun will fade the paint over time, but will it fade
enough before some dickhead feels compelled to add more.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Mar 21, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
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I discussed some juvenile porn in the 'Milks (but far removed from the klettergarten) with the Forest Engineer with the Inyo National Forest, who lives just upstreet. He recommended the application of "EZ Off," or some other generic, lye-based, oven cleaner. Said spray painted graffiti was on some very friable and chossy granite.
I was afraid if the paint was allowed to remain taggers would add more.
Once upon a time - in the mid '70s more precisely - my wife an I were getting ready to head back to Berkeley from Stinson Beach, after a hard day at Mickey's, when I found my attention focused upon this guy striding across the parking lot with a spray paint can.
A couple of hundred feet above the parking lot were some prominent rock outcroppings. In the parking lot was his g/f. Offshore was the sunset.
His intent to memorialize what must have been a successful date for time and eternity was evident. The only question was: do the rest of us have to live with he and his chick's initials, plus those of the following poseurs, at one of California's finest public beaches (as opposed to our Secret Beaches)?
I am definitely not a street fighter, so all I could hope to do was to talk him down. In fact, some classic Marin County hippies had just rolled up in their VW van, and loquaciously inquired if their was to be a fight.
In the meantime, they rolled up another one.
I think I scrambled up, and stood the higher ground. That display was all it took, while I cautiously talked him out of it as diplomatically as I could. With his g/f down there, a face-saving ritual seemed the be the best out for both of us.
Later, driving down Hwy 1, we noticed the He/She initials in red paint. But now, they were inscribed upon the concrete headwall of a drainage drop inlet. Sometimes I wonder about this couple. Are they still together? What became of them? Wonder how long the paint might have lasted, if he'd gone ahead and painted the rock? Would anyone else have intervened? Should anyone really care?
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Mar 21, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
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Bondo!
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Mar 21, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
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Coat the tagger with bondo?
That sounds like an excellent suggestion.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 21, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
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I've proposed in the past that the solution is to declare taggers a "game bird species" and make it legal to hunt them, shotgun only, no larger than 7-1/2 shot.
Only the ones aggressive enough to charge hunters would likely perish, but enough of them would end up lookin' like James Olmos to put a damper on the activity.
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briham89
Trad climber
los gatos. ca
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Mar 22, 2012 - 12:16am PT
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I'm not much help on how to get it off, but I will be help in man power. I live near the base of hwy 9 and am ready to help. Lmk when this is happening (when it re-opens)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 22, 2012 - 02:12am PT
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all in jim
climber
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Mar 22, 2012 - 02:17am PT
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Why not a wire brush? It will easily remove the paint (and a little rock).
Easier to control than sandblasting or chemicals, I'd think.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Mar 22, 2012 - 09:55am PT
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I've used stripper on granite at Joshua Tree in a clean up project for the park last year.
Also, I used to strip furniture for a living and have spent many long hours working with that stuff. (explains a lot)
Sandstone, being porous, is going to absorb the paint or dissolved paint. But, depending on the formation, tends to exfoliate itself.
Suggestion: If you go in with stripper right after it rains while the rock is saturated with water, it would theoretically prevent dissolved paint from soaking in and clean up would be easier.
NO easy solutions here.
Ultimately, nature will wash away all trace of mankind.
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tornado
climber
lawrence kansas
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Mar 22, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
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Quote HCons: It's a large time-commitment, you have to baby sit it and keep people away while it works, you have to haul a LOT of water in to clean it up. Toxic and difficult to clean off climbing routes IMO.
ere Great stuff to use in an area that just had a closure lifted for protected birds.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Mar 23, 2012 - 01:22am PT
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I tried a couple of strippers at Stoney Point today, they just ended up leaving with a couple of Guidos.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 23, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
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Being a 39 year Stoney Point climber, I can speak from experience.
Its best to NOT TRY to remove the ugly ART.
The worst thing is Sandblasting or hi-pressure water blasting.
These methods not only remove the ART but they remove the problems and the patina that makes the sandstone climbable.
Some "do gooders" tried this at Stoney. Lucky for climbers Bob Kamps was there and he jumped in and physically stopped the blasters. He then used his connections at the LA Parks department and they got a represatitive down there ASAP and they officially stopped the blasting.
The next worse thing to do is to paint over the art. some other do-gooders painted over the art .... this ruins the problems too, they become slick as snot, and unclimbable as well.
So I guess it's best to use the art as reference points. Heck that's how TURLOCK boulder and THE JESUS WALL got named.
To bad the LEOS only worry about climbers and care if they are totin in beers and not watching out for the taggers...
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