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John
Social climber
Salt Lake
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 14, 2003 - 05:49pm PT
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How are folks handling piss on big walls these days?
The SuperTopo book of Yosemite Big Wall Classics mentions that the ethic for hauling sh#t off of walls needs to be extended to piss. Is anyone doing this? If so, how? My wife and I used an empty box wine liner bag to haul our pee to the Idaho side of the Lower Saddle on the Grand in order to help keep the spring there and below clean and unpolluted. Not sure how this would work on a wall though.
John
p.s. will the moments of big wall flashbacks upon entering a particularly stinky men's room be a thing of the past one day? Hope so.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Apr 14, 2003 - 06:00pm PT
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>How are folks handling piss on big walls these days?
Usually with just one hand...
...but...seriously...if its steep, I like to watch it go (and hope there's not an updraft). If its low angle, then probably just down an exposed slab that rain might hopefully wash off someday.
I try not to do it in a confined corner or on a ledge.
>The SuperTopo book of Yosemite Big Wall Classics mentions that the ethic for hauling sh#t off of walls needs to be extended to piss. Is anyone doing this?
I can't imagine having to plan for, what usually, is an unplanned event for me. Ugh.
Good question, John. Was out of town last Friday...hope you got out!
Brian in SLC
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mpepe
Big Wall climber
pleasant hill, ca
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Apr 14, 2003 - 06:38pm PT
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apparantly i'm in the minority, judging by the smell on most of the ledges in the valley, but i just use empty water bottles to piss in. how hard is it to piss in an empty bottle or two(depending on how long your up there) and pour the thing out in some bushes on top or carry it down. people who piss on the rock are just lazy.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Apr 14, 2003 - 06:41pm PT
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The pee smell doesn't really bug me. I forget about it pretty quickly. And it's not a huge health hazard. The visual impact of pee streaks seems like a bigger problem to me.
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Ben Rumsen
Mountain climber
Sacramento, CA
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Apr 14, 2003 - 07:54pm PT
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The smell of pee may not bother you, but if you ever have a team above you on an overhanging route and the wind is just right, you'll be a believer in " Acid Rain "!
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Apr 14, 2003 - 08:08pm PT
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Sometimes I pee in a bottle and then dump it further out into space than I could naturally project it... I definitely try to avoid sheltered places where it won't ever wash off.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Apr 15, 2003 - 12:05am PT
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"The smell of pee may not bother you, but if you ever have a team above you on an overhanging route and the wind is just right, you'll be a believer in " Acid Rain "! "
Same thing happens to me in an updraft. Sometimes it's hard to be a girl. :-(
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Lambone
Ice climber
Seattle
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Apr 15, 2003 - 02:33pm PT
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Just DON"T pee in a bottle and leave it on the ledge! My memories of Camp 6 are limited to the sight and smell of several full piss botels and one sh#t bucket...
That realy left a bad taste in my mouth (not literaly) after a most wonderfull climb.
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More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
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Apr 15, 2003 - 10:47pm PT
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20 years ago I did the Leaning Tower, there was no smell of urine at all. Last fall I did the same route again. The smell on the ledges was WAY strong. Personally, I'd like to see pee bottles used ALL the time. For the small amount of inconvenience, you could sit at a belay ledge & breath fresh air!
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Loom
climber
K P Pinnacle or Gehenna
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Apr 15, 2003 - 11:15pm PT
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Whenever possible I've always tried to aim for the French. . .
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John
Social climber
Salt Lake
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2003 - 12:22pm PT
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Well, no big surprises in the responses to my question.
A friend and I will be on The Nose very soon, and I'm going to propose that we haul off our piss. It'll be the first time I've done this on a wall.
The piss stench that arises upon pee hitting the rock just off a ledge is one good reason, leaving the route as clean as we found it is another, and keeping the visual and ecological impart of climbers on such a visible landmark to a minimum is maybe the best reason to do this. Basically, its the right thing to be doing.
Now the problem is logistics. Peeing into the narrow mouth of a standard 2 liter soda bottle isn't going to happen cleanly all the time (understatement). Maybe carry a wide mouthed pee bottle and then transfer into empty 2 liter bottles at the end of the day? Also possibly messy and unappetizing (but maybe "ya gotta do what ya gotta do"?) I'm sure the first thoughts of dealing with storing and hauling a bag of sh#t up a wall was initially unappetizing (still is, but we deal with it).
Does anyone know if a wide mouthed 2 liter soda bottle is sold? Maybe I'll go cruising for "pee-able" 2 liters at the grocery store tonight. This would be the best option. Just start the wall with one empty bottle, kept handy, then fill the water bottles with pee after you empty them of water. All water bottle would then need to have clip in loops (not something I've always done).
And this maybe doesn't really address the extra logistics the ladies get to deal with. I guess bluntly put "can you cleanly hit a wide mouthed bottle?"
later, John
(almost pissing myself with anticipation of The Nose!)
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Bloodynipples
Big Wall climber
The Mountain Room Bar
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Apr 16, 2003 - 12:31pm PT
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Gatorade bottles. There are aslo these 3-litre bottles out there, they have a pretty wide mouth. I use these bottles almost exclusevly with clip-in loops on everything. The wide mouth is great because you can just stick your monkey in the bottle while using the brown sac of stink since one usually leads to the other.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Apr 16, 2003 - 12:53pm PT
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John, you an the missus need to hit the TnT for the 1 liter tonic bottles prior to your trip. Pepsi too (and a few others).
Just about, ahem, big enough diameter to be useful...(har har)...
Brian in SLC
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FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
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Apr 16, 2003 - 12:57pm PT
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I got nothin good to say about any of this at all!
Gross.
How unfortunate.
Try drinking less.
No freakin wonder couples don't do walls together and stay together (so they said in another thread), "that's ok hon- why don't you just solo it again?"
Here's an idea:
Go at the bottom, go again at the top. Works for me!
Maybe Hans should switch his saying from "no bivies" to "nothing nasty to haul"...
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Apr 16, 2003 - 01:59pm PT
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Maybe Hans should switch his saying from "no bivies" to "nothing nasty to haul"...
It wouldn't fit on the liscence plate. I think he tried that first...
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Carolyn
climber
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Apr 16, 2003 - 02:38pm PT
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John, there are a variety of feminine urinary devices available out there (check the Campmor catalogue) that let us do it like the guys do. Highly recommended on the wall, especially if you are going to be carrying it out (which is not GROSS but a fact of life up there - much less gross than smelling like you are in a New York subway train for days). Cheers.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Apr 16, 2003 - 02:44pm PT
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The top of a nalgene is bigger than the Freshette funnel and the top of a Gatorade bottle is comparable. I think you need to get pretty good w/ the Freshette before you don't go all over your hands. And if you just go in the bottle, you'll only have one thing to fumble with instead of two. Bottles are sealable too. (Imagine reaching into the ziplock that your pee funnel has been festering in for a week...)
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Lambone
Ice climber
Seattle
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Apr 17, 2003 - 01:23am PT
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While we are on the subject, what is the best way to avoid pissing on your portaledge when you get up to take that inevitable piss in the middle of the night? When your pissing into space that is...
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Apr 17, 2003 - 02:37am PT
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You guys need some advice from Mr. Way. He has urinated in a bottle at my house and stored it for the past week. I love to piss on walls. I feel free from all my earthly concerns....a simple word nirvana
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Apr 18, 2003 - 08:02pm PT
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> While we are on the subject, what is
> the best way to avoid pissing on your
> portaledge when you get up to take that
> inevitable piss in the middle of the
> night? When your pissing into space
> that is...
On a Fish ledge, just roll over and go through hole where the mid-ledge support strap is attached. No need to even stand up or kneel. Remember to unzip your sleeping bag first.
Brutus
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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I know that this is an old thread (started in April), but it is an important topic. I just did The Nose (along with a million other people who were on the route before and after us). I was the junior member of the team, was told bymy more experienced partner that sh#t comes with us, piss goes on the rock. That is what we did, but I regret that now. We were the first party up after a solid rain, so the only thing we had to smell was our own, and that was objectionable enough. I hate to think what August will be like.
We as a climbing community made a decision that sh#t gets packed out (granted that the NPS has made it official policy, and the approach to the Big Stone has that great sign in four languages). Is there not a consensus among us now that piss needs to get packed out? I know that the pig is heavy enough already, and the only thing good about the pig is that it gets lighter every day, but think how pristine the climb would be! Here you go, off in the most beautiful heaven on this planet, and it smells like the inner city! What we are doing to ourselves is crazy. This is not some foreign power, this is not the establishment. As Walt Kelly said years ago (in the comic, Pogo): We have me the enemy and he is us.
(Chris McNamara just finished his Nth ascent of The Nose, and some jerks have fouled Camp VI with both piss and sh#t. Come on, guys (and here this term includes gals): get your sh#t together and Keep Camp VI Clean, and all of the rest of the rock, too.)
It won't work unless we all make a commitment. What are the opinions?
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Buzzardboy
Trad climber
Lancaster, PA
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Chris McNamara just finished his Nth ascent of The Nose, and some jerks have fouled Camp VI with both piss and sh#t. Come on, guys (and here this term includes gals): get your sh#t together and Keep Camp VI Clean, and all of the rest of the rock, too.)
This kinda stuff pisses me off. What are people thinking when they leave their waste at Camp VI? There's way too much traffic on these routes for this kinda laziness. With all the information and support for "Leave No Trace" climbing, you would think people would be getting the message. I know most climbers think of themselves as environmentally conscious people, so whats the deal????
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sto
climber
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I'm a big believer in respecting the local ethics no matter how retarded (yes, I use resin in Fontainebleau and I don't top rope on gritstone in the UK) but there doesn't seem to be a clear local consensus on piss on big walls. I was in a party of three on the Salathe Wall this May and our position was kind of a compromise. We would haul our piss until we found water with enough flow to wash it away.
So at the Block we poured the piss down into the Jungle (aka Sewer) Pitch. We knew that the next party was only down by Hollow Flake Ledge so we thought it would be dissipated by the time they got up. Problem was -- Jim Herson and Pete Coward decided to do the Salathe in a day that morning so it must have been pretty nasty in there when they got there a few hours later. Sorry guys.
I guess this post is the answer to the question: "How could the Jungle Pitch possibly be worse?"
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None
climber
San Francisco, CA
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"Is there not a consensus among us now that piss needs to get packed out?"
Nope.
But if there was, I think you'd need to include free climbers too. After morning coffee, lots of us tend to wash down the first couple of belays on longer routes.
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Mike
climber
Orange County CA
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Pee in mid-pitch (unless it's continuously hard free, obviously). Below traverses are often good spots where no one will likely be climbing or spend much time. Belays with ledges are the obvious and over-used locations.
PS: Lamb: I often use a pee bottle for "transfer" - especially useful when on the inside of a double ledge. Hey, nice job on the Trip too...
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cadl
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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We've used this technique pretty successfully. Pee in a 1 liter Nalgene. When you're on a steep section, unscrew the cap, hold the cap against side of the bottle with your forefinger. Check the wind direction and speed, make sure there are no parties below you, and when it's not blowing too hard, do the underhand softball fling. It normally takes 3 flings to empty a whole liter, but you can clear the wall by 4-5 feet. If the wall is pretty steep, very little actually hits the wall.
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Lincoln
climber
Yosemite, CA
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Good topic, I was just talking to folks in Camp 4 about this question last week.
As a climber, and as someone who's job is to try and protect these cliffs, the more we can do to keep them clean the better.
I think we're quite a ways from getting everyone to pack their urine off with them (we're still working on the more nasty challenge: picked up over twenty crap bags from the base on a clean up two weeks ago). For the time being, we can at least get people to make a little extra effort:
Using a wide mouth bottle to "transfer" works great, and it's easy enough that people might be willing to do it. Fill the bottle when you need to go, and then pour it out when you're in a better spot (overhung, traverse, etc).
The top section of the Nose is an especially bad spot since no such "better spot" exists until your at or near the summit. The solution is probably to carry your piss for at least this section of the climb and pour it out at the top.
Makes you wonder how many gallons of piss we pour on El Cap every year... doesn't seem like the best way to treat the same rock we all dream about most of the time...
-Link
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Thom
Trad climber
Santa Margarita, CA
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CARRY IT OUT YOU LAZY BUMS! NO ACCEPTABLE EXCUSE! Lazy, LAzy, LAZy, LAZY! What's so hard about it? No matter what, the pig will be lighter at the top than it was at the bottom—even with a few bottles of recycled water. (Here's a thought: take less water to start with; then, just drink it 3 times [3 times is the max before it becomes too acidic and actually will affect your health]; survival tip for anyone that cares).
Next time I'm visiting your home, I'll be sure to piss in a corner somewhere when I gotta go, since it would be bad form for me to just piss in the middle of your bedroom; I do have some manners. Of course, I'd never do this in my own home: I have (and use) the indoor plumbing system; but then, what do I care about your home—I'm only visiting. Unfortunately, it appears that some of you already piss in the corners of your homes and wouldn't mind, therefor, if I did. We all live on these walls for days (even weeks) at a time, numerous times each year, year after year. Might as well be home (and is) for many of us. I don't want to sleep in the stench of your laziness.
Pooring it into the air, down a crack, down a slab, whatever: the solid particles contained in your piss remain and make their way into the surrounding environment. Just because you can't see it anymore doesn't mean it ain't there. Compound that by 1000's of climbers... There are just too many people, concentrated in too small of an area, to enable the environment to absorb the impact. And I swear to the mountain gods themselves, the next climber that pisses on me in the middle of the night will take up Bocce Ball (using those formally attached to their own body) when I'm finished.
LAZY! (Did I already say that)? It simply is not that big of a deal. You don't want to carry the extra weight? You'll figure at a way to haul everything but the kitchen sink up the damn wall but you're too lazy to carry out your own piss? Climbing the valley walls is not that strenuous. Sure, it's work, but you have every amenity you could ask for to facilitate your valiant, hardcore, efforts right at your fingertips. So you have to hike a few hours with a couple of extra pounds of weight at the end of the climb: big f*g deal.
And before anyone starts whining about my position that valley wall climbing isn't strenuous enough to warrant carrying out a few extra pounds of urine, take a hard look at what some other climbers, in other venues, go through to accomplish their goals. By comparison, you've got it easy. You're a bunch of soft, whiny, lazy, babies that don't know what HARD work truly is. And yes, I carry one empty Nalgene bottle (1 qt.) for every two days I plan to be on a wall. I carry them all out and head to the nearest RV dump station.
CARRY OUT YOUR PISS!
P.S. The above is not directed at anyone in particular. But, if the shoe fits, by all means, put it on, lace it up, and walk around in it for awhile. Maybe you'll find that pair of shoes too snug and exchange them for a better fit.
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fern
climber
Vancouver
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a friend and I did the leaning tower last week and decided to
carry out a collection of gross, manky old water bottles
accumulated at the top. We were emptying them and didn't
realize that one was 2nd hand water and poured it on the ledge.
Sorry! I feel bad for contributing to the problem like that.
Then later doing the gully raps in the dark we lost track of a
bunch of bottles (and some slings and biners), so I think we left
them in the descent gully somewhere. Good intentions but faulty
execution at a few steps along the way, I hope we didn't
inconvenience or offend anyone.
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Mike
climber
Orange County CA
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Diplomatic plea, Wolf. Especially helpful is the suggestion of drinking piss.
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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Wolf, thanks. I did not want to post such a strong statement when I re-activated this thread, BUT I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT. It appalls me that Linc says some jerks are still tossing their sh#t. The climbing community has decided that this is no longer acceptable, like pounding in pitons on clean cracks. You cannot just do what you want, as it affects all of the rest of us. (The NPS has also mandated the non-toss rule, but here I am referring to your peers.)
The aesthetics of piss is the same as sh#t, only we are slower to recognize it. We are out to enjoy the beauty, grandure, solitude of the Big Stone (or wherever you are climbing). The piss stench COMPLETELY degrades the experience. We are doing it to ourselves! Wolf is right: out of laziness, pure and simple. WE are the ones who are hurt by it, WE are the ones who have to stop it. Rant and rave all you want about the Establishment, but as I said above, We have met the enemy and he is us.
Keep this thread going, talk to your fellow climbers, hold yourself to a higher standard even if others refuse to improve their style. It is much more in the style of Salathe and Robbins to grow ethically and to climb without leaving a trace, than to make the Big Stone your bathroom.
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FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
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Jul 10, 2003 - 02:28pm PT
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"don't piss in the wind"
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FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
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Jul 11, 2003 - 04:22pm PT
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Re: this email (below)
Dear Free,
What do you mean? Your "don't piss in the wind" comment was idiotic
and garbage. The question of urine on big walls is a serious question
that the climbing community needs to address. You degrade the quality
of the discussion with stupid comments. I am serious: we need to
discuss this and stop pissing on our routes.
David Nelson
San Francisco
Mr. Nelson (et. al.)-
I was engagaed at the time in an effort to push a dozen or so adolescent and idiotic threads to the 2nd page of the forum. Toward this end I brought 20 or so threads up from the pages of older topics. In my own defence, at least I was keeping the topic current on the forum, and you cannot argue w/ the advice itself...
-Fc
Ps- Dave, perhaps you were being a touch over serious when you emailed me? Cheers.
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Satan
Social climber
South Central LA ( HELL )
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Jul 16, 2003 - 03:21pm PT
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"Especially helpful is the suggestion of drinking piss" - are you people CRAZY? Is that gatoraid in your canteen or are you relieved to see me?
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clustiere
Big Wall climber
san diego
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Jul 17, 2003 - 02:45am PT
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if you dont want to huff piss do a route far from the crowds or do an A4 route. Otherwise suck it up.
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Fishy
climber
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Jul 17, 2003 - 05:16am PT
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Am I the only one having trouble with the "solid particles contained in your piss" statement by our passionate friend Wolf??
I dont know about you guys, but I am more than happy I am not pissing solid particles....
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Larry
Trad climber
Reno NV
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Jul 17, 2003 - 09:10am PT
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David Nelson said,
"The climbing community has decided that [tossing sh#t bags] is no longer acceptable, like pounding in pitons on clean cracks."
Last time I looked people were still nailing lots of "clean" routes - Zodiac, ZM, NA, Shield for example.
Not that that makes sh#t bags acceptable...I'm just saying that some in "the community" do find them acceptable, still. Let alone piss.
On the constructive side, has anyone tried those "WAG Bags" for containing human waste? Do they work with both #1 and #2?
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Ben Rumsen
Mountain climber
Sacramento, CA
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Jul 17, 2003 - 12:09pm PT
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I've bought some WAG bags, though I haven't had a chance to use them. But the concept is good. Check 'em out.
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Thom
Trad climber
South Orange County, CA
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Jul 17, 2003 - 09:51pm PT
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Oh, but you are my dear Fishy...
There's even a medical test called Osmolality that will measure the concentration of particles in your fishy urine. It's similar to a Specific Gravity test (also known as Urine Density Test). The results of this test can indicate such things as Diabetes Insipidus or heart failure related to decreased blood flow to the kidneys.
Perhaps you should simply be happy that you're not pissing LARGE particles....
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Fishy
climber
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Jul 18, 2003 - 05:14am PT
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Hey Wolf,
Yeah, I actually spent several years studying osmolality and osmoregulation in fish, so I grasp that concept.
I am still not convinced that particle is quite the right word for the solutes in urine though....
Anyhow...
Perhaps we should only enforce piss bottles for urine above a certain osmolality? We could install osmometers on each ledge up the nose to camp 6 for people do do a quick self test...anything to keep those with a load of "brown syrup" from dumping it on the rock....urgh
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jul 18, 2003 - 01:18pm PT
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Ya gotta save yur beer cans n piss into em when ya need to. Take an emptee on lead. This way, yur beer cans go straight to the base and yur partner dusn't get peed on.
Pee bombs are the ticket! 24 oz cans recommended for larger folks.
...back to the Deli...
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Thom
Trad climber
South Orange County, CA
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Jul 18, 2003 - 09:30pm PT
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Hey Fishy,
Probably right: "particle" may not be the best choice of verbage.
Osmometers on The Nose; I like it!
Perhaps climbers could be required to "recycle" their fluids until they reach a certain density. When it reaches the "brown syrup" density that you mention, it could then be used as a spread (like Vegemite) on crackers and such (probably have a similar taste at that point, too).
Wait a minute, maybe we're on to something here, Fishy! Maybe, climbers could be convinced to carry the stuff down afterall:
If it does indeed end up similar to Vegemite, perhaps we could pay top dollar for each pint brought down; then, after a little further processing to increase the density, we could bottle it right in the valley and export it to the Aussies and Kiwis!
But what shall we name it....anyone?
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