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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 9, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
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Twenty-nine years ago, I did a bad thing, and I began to regret it the very next day.
There has been a lot of conjecture, mistruths, and outright lies about Wings Of Steel. I will present nothing but facts here. Everything I say here is the truth. I was a chopper and shitter in the Wings of Steel incident, and I am writing today to apologize publicly to Mark Smith and Richard Jensen.
To explain things a bit, but not justify anything, I'd like to go back to 1982. Richard Jensen and Mark Smith arrived in the Valley intent on climbing a new route on El Capitan, via the blankish looking slab to the left of the Dihedral Wall. Some Valley Locals, including me, a member of Yosar, and other Yosar members reacted badly to what we perceived to be their intrusion. We had put in our time on the Big Stone before venturing onto first ascent terrain. The word on Richard and Mark, whether factual or not, was that they had practiced aid climbing in some quarry in L.A. and felt ready for victory on our sacred wall. Word out was that they had not even done a single big wall...although I believe they actually had done the Column. A weird sort of mob mentality began to develop. We imagined a bolt ladder up the slab, and that was bad style. Therefore we felt it had to be chopped.
I have in my notes May 19th, 1982 as the day that I first free climbed Astroman. My log shows two falls. To celebrate afterwards, I remember quaffing a six pack in pretty short time. I was totally hammered and feeling pretty full of myself when a couple of friends of mine and I headed out to chop that route. It seems like we all sort of dared each other to do it. When we got to the base I had forgotten my jumars because I was so drunk. So I mostly just sat there while my friends went up and started the chopping. It was pitch black.
I don't want to say here who my two friends were because I don't think it is cool to "out" somebody. But I have never seen them here on the Taco, at least not knowingly, so excuse them if they never write here. I can say that they are still my friends and I consider them to be men of good character, though I don't see them that often anymore.
When one of them came down the fixed ropes, I used his jugs to go up and chop the first two bolts. They were the first and last bolts I would ever chop in my life, such was the subsequent distaste in my mouth that I experienced from this act of vandalism.
When the top guy came down from the second pitch, he held a biner full of copperheads that he had chopped like it was a trophy. A lot of the heads looked tiny, and that was when I first began to realize that maybe this wasn't such a good idea. It looked like Mark and Richard were doing some climbing. I thought we had come to chop a bolt ladder. Oops. That biner of heads still haunts me to this day. After all, when Robbins began chopping WOEML, he at least was able to realize after climbing part of the route that it deserved to stay. But we hadn't climbed anything, we had just jugged their lines, and we had chopped it in the dark without looking. We never even gave those guys a chance.
We were pretty caught up with the event, and had brought some beans or chili to dump on their ropes in the end. But I guess that wasn't good enough for me and I had the idea to defecate on their ropes. Events are really hazy for me here, perhaps because I have tried to repress these hurtful memories for most of 30 years, but I remember taking a dump on their cords, one of my friends trying but not being successful, and the other not dumping at all. Mostly, it was just me. And is a terribly hard thing for me to say and, of course, I am like, way ashamed. I was 21 years old at the time.
Now I'm 51. And after Ammon and Kait's second ascent vindicated Mark and Richard by agreeing that WOS has some of the hardest hooking on El Cap, and after reading some of the utter crap the people had said about these guys on the thread that would not die, and after reading Ammon's article in Rock & Ice, and after gettin' a nudge from "an acquaintance", I knew what I had to do.
Six weeks ago, with phone numbers in hand, I first called Richard Jensen, then Mark Smith in a single day, to apologize. Those conversations were amazing, and private, but the basics were that I 'fessed up to what I had done, and had expressed to them how sorry I was - and I mean , my God I was sorry. I was unanimously forgiven. I felt very humbled.
And the thing that really bummed me was that Mark and Richard seem like great guys. And the realization hit me that we could have been friends for all these years if circumstances had been different, and I hadn't done what I did. And that seemed like a shame. So, I felt I could forgive myself a bit now that I had come clean with those guys. It was a long time ago, when I was a young dumb blonde kid, and I had been especially trashed. But recently, I had been losing sleep over this because I felt so bad about it, and after speaking with Mark and Richard I slept better for a little while, at least until I knew I had to take this next step and 'fess up publicly.
Because these guys Mark and Richard had been taking all this crap over the years, and pretty much all of it was completely unfair. They had done Sea of Dreams and gotten a little respect. They went out to do an A6 route in the desert, finding it to be not that bad. But for whatever reason, maybe an extension of the mob mentality thing, these guys were just getting plain persucuted, even a quarter-century later. And it just doesn't seem fair now that I logically think about it. Nobody wanted anything to do with that slab . And since WOS, nobody has gone near that slab. If a couple of guys can come up from LA and embrace that slick slab like they did, then I say all the more power to them. They certainly did nothing wrong.
Mark and Richard, I wish I could turn back the clock and take that night back. But I can't do that. I can only do what I can do and this is all I can do. I realize I have made a lot of mistakes with people over the years and I have found myself calling and apologizing to friends with whom I had strained relationships by being a jerk at times (some of you on the Taco can attest to this fact). But this was my biggest faux pas in the climbing world, and with it being so public, it has been the hardest to come to terms with.
One of the bottom lines is that I don't want to be on my death bed with any sh#t hanging over me. And another is that I want to be able to meet Richard and Mark and be able to put my hand out and not have any unfinished business between us.
And so now I extend my hand - holding this olive branch - towards Mark and Richard.
Sincerely,
Steve "Shipoopoi" Schneider
Oakland, California
BTW This is NOT how I got my nickname
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Well done, Steve, thank you very much.
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fosburg
climber
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Thanks for that Steve, I admire you more than ever.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Wow Steve, Good on you! I'm proud to know you (as I have been the last thirty odd years...)
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Mick K
climber
Northern Sierra
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Excellent
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Steve: WOW!
I have not been involved in the WOS thread, but I did read a lot of it, and also the recent article on the 2nd ascent.
Thank you for openly admitting your youthful involvement in the “rope-chopping” incident on WOS.
“Young & Dumb” is something most all of us have had to suffer through.
It is too bad that those memories of “youthful indiscretion” have been with you all these years.
I commend you for “fessing-up” and making peace.
Best Wishes!
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Only positive vibes comin' outta this thread! Well done. This is way cool.
Stoke!
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mctwisted
Social climber
paradise
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we still love you steve
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Where are you bound?
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Well, if that wasn't just hit right outa Left Field....
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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We all did stuff in our youth that we regret later. But most of us don't have the balls to admit it, let alone to publicly apoligize.
Steve Schneider = class act
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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The cycle is complete?
A historical artifact of the division that can come to a climbing community?
Human nature both in it's lower and higher forms?
True congrats to Richard and Mark.
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ryankelly
Trad climber
el portal
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right on steve
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Prod
Trad climber
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That was a pretty big thing to do. Feel better? Hope so.
Prod.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Where are you bound?
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It's all circles, right? Sh#t comes back around. Same as it ever was.
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jsb
Trad climber
Bay area
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It's really great to see this story have a happy ending for everyone involved. Congrats.
What's up with that videotaped confession by someone else in Ammon's movie, though?
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nature
climber
Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...
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hey Steve.... go get a really good nights rest.
you deserve it.
cheers!
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ec
climber
ca
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Steve,
Thx for that. Going by 'here say' has gotten many of us into trouble. You needed some humbling; for this and for probably lots of other selfish/dumb acts.
I first met you at a 'casual' slideshow that you gave after another climber at the then, Sunrise Mountaineering in Walnut Creek, CA in maybe '85 or so. First-up was who we all knew here at the Taco as Brutus. He was cool enough to share an FA on Mount Whitney. However, he wasn't part of your entourage and during his whole presentation you and your buds made comments and jeered about his accomplishment. I don't know if Brutus even cared, but I found your behavior obnoxious. I've never had any respect for you since. Narcissism is an ugly thing.
So I am not surprised you were involved in this WOS thing. Perhaps, maybe I also can have some change of thought about you. Getting old and having things like this on your list of acts suck, doesn't it?
 ec
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Good on you for owning up Steve! Ditto on the "we've all done wrong" riff, it's a rare thing that's irreversible with the right attitude. Your post was well written and heartfelt. Good on you.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Nicely done. It is never too late to apologize and accept the blame.
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perswig
climber
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This place never fails to surprise and impress me.
Dale
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go-B
climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
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Cheers to Richard and Mark!
Steve you have always been a friend and hero of mine and even more so now!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Steve, as I told you when we talked on the phone, I'm deeply touched.
I know something of what your phone call, and now this, must have cost you, and I take a knee before you and honor you as a fellow warrior of the spirit. Well done; you have indeed rolled back the clock, my friend. Thank you.
May you be blessed and at peace,
Richard
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Brian
climber
California
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I'm sure that fessing up was hard--really, really hard. But I'm sure you're feeling better having done so. I know from experience.
Kudos to you for coming clean. And kudos to Mark and Richard for being forgiving.
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
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Thank you Richard Jensen, steve
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Heavy sh#t man . . . no pun intended. What a crucial step forward you have taken to heal this blemish on your soul. It takes a real man to admit his mistakes and apologize to those he has slighted.
Good luck going forward with your healing process.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Wow, Steve! Am very impressed with your 'fessing up and apology. Good on you!
And Richard, too, for being gracious and forgiving.
I'd love to see a TR on the Taco someday of you two (or 3) climbing together after all of this!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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It takes guts to own up to a mistake, good work! I bet that's a weight off your chest.
Forgive yourself, we all make mistakes.
I'm not surprised the WoS guys accepted your apology gracefully. They seem like good guys.
Good work with a private then public apology. A silver lining may be if other climbers read this they may learn something about jumping to conclusions. I thought it was big of Royal to discuss his thoughts around the chopping on the WOEML, and help people understand the ethics of the FA are a tough subject and you really need to be careful.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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bet it was pretty tough pickin up the phone for that call.
tough thing to do in print.
good on ya
personally, i hope this doesn't put pressure on the rest of us to publicly confess all the bad stuff we did while young and drunk in camp 4.
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seneca
climber
jamais, jamais pays
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Style and Grace
Bob
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E
Social climber
Tujunga CA.
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Hey wait a minuite I always thought Russel cranked the steamer.
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Park Rat
Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
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Wow, who would've guessed?
Young people often make mistakes, it is part of growing up.
Taking responsibility for those mistakes takes both courage and maturity.
Good for you.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Shipoopoi,
Thank you for restoring a large quantity of my faith in humanity.
You make me very proud to say, we are climbers.
You sir, are truly a man.
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burntheman
Trad climber
slt
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More praise for Richard and Mark. They endured some major challenges outside of their once repeated route. And they took the high road the whole way. Amazing character.
And a fitting end to a Hollywood type script.. Thanks for telling your story Steve.
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MH2
climber
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Big sigh of relief.
No irony intended.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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This reflects positively on al of of you. Except Mimi.
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micronut
Trad climber
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That was a big step man. We've never met, but I hope your courage and humility, years and years in the making, serve as an inspiration to others. Asking for forgiveness is one of the great duties in life.......many go through life never doing it. i hope it and the relationship with the men involved brings you some peace.
I also hope that this act serves to change the minds of dudes who did a whole lot of unneccessary hating on Richard and Mark. I hope they realize how lame this thing had gotten. Thanks for doing the right thing.
Yall should go do a wall together. We'll be waiting for the TR.
Scott
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ClimbingOn
Trad climber
NY
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Good read, and thanks for closing that chapter.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Thanks Steve, for sharing that. And good job! That took courage. And thank you Mark and Richard for having the decency to accept his apology.
Kudos..
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Pretty amazing. The taco stand is really something else.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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steve, you are a man of substance, we've always known that. Now we know you are a brave big hearted man. And hey all, let's praise mark and richard for their open hearted response.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Steve....Guilt is a useless emotion....Next time use a litter box...RJ
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Steve - Doing the route yourself might be just the katharsis needed right now. Think about it.
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Damn. I wish I'd shat on the ropes so I could do such a generous and humble thing.
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Iron Mtn.
Trad climber
Riverside, Ca.
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Wow, I really didn't expect this. Especially after seeing that lame youtube video which seemed to be stoking the fire on this even more.
Years ago I read the book about the ascent and found it a good read. I could relate to the struggles that Mark and Richard were going through on and off the rock. I always felt an admiration for the ascent, I felt it was very Warren Harding-like bucking the trends of the day. The other cool thing was that they were local guys who pulled off a pretty cool achievement.
When I joined taco, I was shocked how people were still really emotional and negative towards Mark and Richard. I chose to avoid all of that until now.
I am happy they finally got an apology from one of the perpetrators, it was long overdue.......
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Everyone makes mistakes, it's what you do about them that shows what kind of a person you are.
Steve that was digging deep.
What a fine thing to do.
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laughingman
Mountain climber
Seattle WA
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Wish politicians were as honest as you Steve. It takes a real man to own up to ones mistakes...
Best regards
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2011 - 12:01am PT
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What I don't understand is why wait so long?
All these years I never knew until somebody outed you three 2 weeks ago on another thread here.
Your actions also affected a lot of locals as they were thrown into this sh!t storm thru so called guilt by association.
That fell under the term "Valley Locals".
Others were falsely accused or played with as the guilty (one/ones) and had ranting breakdowns here.
Meaty for example.
It was huge drama scene played out to the entertainment and nightmare.
What a huge fuking mess over a rock climb.
30 some fuking years over this sh!t seems pretty fuking stupid but that's life.
Thanks for pulling out all stops on this as it took balls.
Best wishes to the whole bunch of ya .... Steve, Richard & Mark
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Dec 10, 2011 - 12:22am PT
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LOL!
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hollyclimber
Big Wall climber
Yosemite, CA
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Dec 10, 2011 - 12:48am PT
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Steve-
Thanks for putting a stop to all the nonsense and lies that were perpetuated by some.
Hugs,
HB
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Dec 10, 2011 - 12:56am PT
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Holy crap Steve! We have never met, but I've been an avid rock climber for 33 years and I've always had tremendous respect for your acomplishments. Well, now multiply that by a thousand!!!
Class act. Period.
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James
climber
My twin brother's laundry room
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Dec 10, 2011 - 01:03am PT
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Ps that's not how I got my nickname.
That witticism was worth the whole fiasco.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 10, 2011 - 01:15am PT
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Bravo! - something we can all learn from.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 10, 2011 - 01:17am PT
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Steve,
You must have felt like you were on an A5 lead as you considered whether or not to come forward publically. Very impressive. And for me, deeply appreciated. As I told you on the phone, my friend, all is well. We will shake hands sometime soon. The essence of who you or any of us are is best measured by where we are headed, not where we have been. Sleep well tonight.
--Mark
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 10, 2011 - 01:39am PT
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Man we've all done some things we don't care to share. Done someone wrong. Fortunately for most of us we didn't do something that went down in history with such bitterness for a whole community.
Talk about pressure! I can still remember with knots in my stomach having to confess a few things to close friends.
To have to do so publicly? I feel for you.
But out of this hard personal step please know you have brought a really positive closure to what would have continued to go down as a dark mark in climbing history.
You lift a weight off all our shoulders.
KUDO's to Steve, Mark and Richard. To helping close the book on the epic that is WOS
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2011 - 01:59am PT
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and thank you Mark Smith. yeah, sleep sounds really good right now, steve
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Dec 10, 2011 - 02:08am PT
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Schneider.....WOW, I'm totally blown away...
Pretty incredible..
Now you should be proud of yourself..
Saludos...best wishes..
nita.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSfj9kDbnpY
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2011 - 02:19am PT
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I've got an almost choked up warm feeling in my chest.
This is the way of healing and humanity on both sides.
Thank you for showing the way
Peace
Karl
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tom Carter
Social climber
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Dec 10, 2011 - 03:28am PT
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Steve, good for you... And good for them.
Good things happen every day.
Thanks
Tc
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 10, 2011 - 03:45am PT
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I'm a software guy and use a lot of social media, but Supertopo is the only one I participate in where I've witnessed it gel into a real, enduring community.
We've developed rants, raves, debates, ideas, charity, relationships, history, videos, stories, and even products - and now, in a real sign of maturity - integrity and humility. And, I don't mean just Steve, because I suspect his brave acts will fold into the fabric of who we all are both as individuals and together as a collected whole.
Bravo...
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Dec 10, 2011 - 07:21am PT
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an awesome display of human nature,
courage and confidence
eclipsed by arrogance and mischief.
guilt carried.
then humility and kindness extended.
i am moved by your spirit.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Dec 10, 2011 - 08:39am PT
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I haven't been involved in the WOS debate for a long time, but I feel like I have to chime in on congratulating Steve in his resolve and Richard and Mark for their gracious acceptance.
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Maysho
climber
Soda Springs, CA
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Dec 10, 2011 - 09:23am PT
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Bravo Steve!
I am proud to be your friend...You have contributed so much to this funny rich lifelong scene of climbing...and never more than today!
As has been said...
"climbing may be hard, buts it's easier than growing up!".
Peter
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Double D
climber
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Dec 10, 2011 - 10:02am PT
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Bold move from a bold guy. Nice job Steve.
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NigelSSI
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 10, 2011 - 10:35am PT
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Best post in the whole WOS taco saga, Steve.
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tallguy
Trad climber
eastside
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Dec 10, 2011 - 10:38am PT
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Steve,
Given the length and quality of the circle jerk you just received, I'd recommend coming up with some more things to confess...
well done.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 10, 2011 - 10:56am PT
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Doing something like this takes a strong man or woman. Props to you and may your conscious gain some clarity.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 10, 2011 - 11:24am PT
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He made amends. Like an adult - never easy. At least not for me, so I´m hoping some of his courage might rub off on me.
Now it´s done and we move on.
JL
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Dec 10, 2011 - 11:36am PT
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Steve:
Your actions were very understandable knowing the traditions and culture of that day.
Any of us can make mistakes, only the strongest can admit and accept them.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Dec 10, 2011 - 11:41am PT
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Great confession poopi....
Much like Werners post, I'm in the camp of it is a shame that so many poor bastards got tossed under the bus during the sh#t-storm and finger pointing sessions on the rabid hunt for shitters.
Since you are no rat, how about a list of "non-shitters" culled from the accused in the various WOS threads? How about clearing their names?
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Blakey
Trad climber
Newcastle UK
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Dec 10, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
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As a distant bystander it's very pleasing to see that something good has eventually come out of this saga.
I was eventually able to get a copy of the Magazine in the UK and the article made for an interesting read.
Well done to Steve for his humility, and a big well done to the WOS team for their noble acceptance of his sincere apology.
Happy Christmas to you all!
Steve
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pc
climber
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Dec 10, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
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I'm glad Mark and Richard got the apology and good for them for continuing to be class acts and accept it with grace.
Bummer though...WOS is/was one of the few raging climbing topics. Back to politics and religion I guess.
Cheers,
pc
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Dec 10, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
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Good on ya, Steve. Growing up;....happens to most all of us;...just takes longer for some of us than others. Everyone screws up....but not many find the sac to try to fix the screw ups;.....thanks for being an example, once again, to all of us....pointing us in the right direction and giving us all a tiny push. Much appreciated and respected. Good on Mark and Richard for hanging tough, being real, and being able to appreciate and respect Steve's honesty and sincere apology......We all know climbing is a dirty and dangerous sport.....Bravo to the climbing community for figuring this one out;....(took a couple of decades.....)...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 10, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
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Good Job steve. Hopefully the rest of the bullys will come forward and make amends.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 10, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
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With such a display of candor and humility you can kiss your political aspirations goodbye!
But maybe you could go onto the lecture circuit? Well done :-)
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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Dec 10, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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Who the hell started this whole freaking mess on Supertopo? I'd say let's kick their ass, but they're probably very fit, athletic, and some sort of MMA fighter.
May 17 2005
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 10, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
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Good job Jason. You should take some Psyc courses and become a conflict resolution counsler ;)
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 10, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
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Thank you, Steve.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 10, 2011 - 01:44pm PT
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A heartfelt apology with genuine humility ! Deep reverence, Steve.
One wonders how much group contagion (for doing the outrageous) in a place like Camp4 might lead to insolent acts an individual wouldn't do at home.
Camp 4 would appear a terrifying neighborhood in those days...but most of you turned out to be good people.
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
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wow, i'm pretty blown away. there is sure a lot of sweet people on the taco. thanks everybody for your support, especially richard and mark. i had heard that they were really a class act, and now that should be apparent for all to see. they really took the high road all the way. steve
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Dec 10, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
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Wow.
That was bold, done with surprising style, and will likely never be repeated.
You even made it look easy.
It's hard to not feel uniquely inspired after just reading that 1st 100 posts.
I also will take this opportunity to apologize to Mark and Richard if I ever piled on in any inappropriate or hurtful way, in threads past or distant past.
Rock climbing aside, and the rocks themselves aside, it's obviously humbling for everyone to see people genuinely putting the lives and feelings and real experiences of other people ahead of ego or tradition or whatever else.
Steve I remember a day when we surprised each other, and honestly I was even more surprised by you the day we later shook hands over that, but none of that ever really caused me to see you in a different light, the way this post has.
Namaste Steve.
After opening up in private, and then opening up here in public, I want to ask you, please, to do us all one more favor?
In particular for those of us who have long admired you, but also for those who may be just learning to admire you, and for all of the people in the World who care about you as a person and not just a legendary rock climber, I want to ask you please to continue this latest bold solo of yours, complete the trifecta, and forgive yourself.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Dec 10, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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Well done Mark, Richard and Steve.
It makes me proud to be a rock climber and part of this community.
....especially after that thread with the masked a-hole. That left a bad taste in my mouth.
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
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matt, thanks for your words. as you personally know, i can still be a hothead...but i have gotten a lot better at apologizing. steve
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
WA, & NC & Idaho
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Dec 10, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
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Good for you Steve, way to man up and take responsibility!
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Dec 10, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
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Good Job steve. Hopefully the rest of the bullys will come forward and make amends.
The rest of the bullys? That's not the spirit of this thread.
We could all use Steve's example in our lives.
Steve Sneider-King of Paine! That is the east face and complete Paine Tower traverse. Insane! Long Live Shipoopoi.
Arne
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jack herer
Big Wall climber
Veneta, Oregon
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Dec 10, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
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hey poopi... way to finally get it off your chest. I remember when you told me this at the base of the slab a couple of years ago. I was like NO SH#T!! Glad you could finally get it off your chest =) Bummed I didnt get to see you this year... Lets talk soon, I'll give you a call!
Ty
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krahmes
Social climber
Stumptown
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Dec 10, 2011 - 03:11pm PT
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Well that just about puts a bow on the whole WOS saga. Well done Mark, Richard, Ammon, Kait and finally Steve for coming clean.
That took guts coming clean, and as I get older the goal is to live life without regret, which I think is a common human thread.
Still I can’t help but wonder if that juvenile malicious prank (and Mark and Richard persevering after the act) didn’t add to mystique that has surrounded the WOS climb and has given some of us years of pondering about how we address the climbs we do, the form we do it in and our reaction to the people that occupy our alpine world with us. All’s well that ends well.
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Dec 10, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
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Steve,
One cannot change the past, but with correct actions help redeem it. As we probably had only met in passing, what I have known of you is from the quality and boldness of your routes – and I believe that you now again have done the same with your confession.
Forgiveness is tough as it involves action(s) from the perpetrator and the victim. You have gone to those who were most affected and inflicted by this act, and true to their convictions have wholly forgiven and now embrace you as a friend. In this I counsel to take solace; for there are those who will see the passage of time between action and accountability as an excuse to become even more vitriolic and derisive.
I also hope that this spurs others to right actions, those who have accused, derided, and have also participated in the “Mob Mentality” that you so aptly chronicled – whether in person or on the Taco- Actions indeed do not happen in a vacuum.
A thought on pride; Pride is indeed the root of many a foul action. As you have alluded to, it was pride for your turf, your group and the collective rules that was a prime motivator. Being drunk is never an excuse, rather the reason why the demon of pride was let loose.
In conclusion Steve, thank you for being transparent and accountable. Thank you for having the courage of your convictions. May you prosper in every good way and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.
Rob Newell
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Dec 10, 2011 - 03:57pm PT
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+1 for thinking you should at least try the route (with the FA guys if possible) to attone for this. Also that would be a rad movie opportunity, you all sketched out on gnarly hooking with those guys cheering you on.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Dec 10, 2011 - 04:15pm PT
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Steve,
nice job in finally standing up! One thing you might also consider doing(which you might have already done) is to personally apologize to anyone who might have caught some of the blame for your actions.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 10, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
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Impressive apologies. Well done.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 10, 2011 - 05:19pm PT
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There are many kinds of courage...this is one of the best.
Way to drop that load (no pun intended). The future is all you can control.
Thank you Steve.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Dec 10, 2011 - 06:18pm PT
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"To fail is human. To resurrect oneself is an act of courage." - unknown
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Dec 10, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
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Way cool. I like what I read. Thanks for your courage.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 10, 2011 - 07:30pm PT
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Steve, thanks again. I am very happy to see how this thread is turning out, and it lifts me up to see people reacting as they are to this whole thing.
And, Matt, thank you also. It's a hard thing to change perspectives... perhaps the hardest. Thank you for your post.
It's very satisfying to finally have closure. Thank you to all who contributed to that!
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Dec 10, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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I good lesson for those who would go off and take action based on rumor & assumption.
There is not much in the conflicts between men that could not be handled by direct communication with the intent to understand.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 10, 2011 - 10:00pm PT
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Reposting from 2006, now with added significance....
I guess it's just my nature to look for the silver lining in things. First of all, (apologies to R&M, and S) but the whole incident WAS pretty funny. So childish. I hope you all can look back some day and laugh. Secondly, it gave the climb more notoriety because it was so outrageous. We ALL heard about it. Thirdly it gave rise to the apology and this thread... redemption! Fourth it was ONE more thing for the FA team to overcome. I think it was ballsy to say f*#k it, we're going to wash our ropes, regain our hight point and keep going. I think that was perhaps the best part of this whole incident, that Warren Harding doggedness displayed.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 10, 2011 - 10:13pm PT
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I've been offline a while but had breakfast with Maria and she told me about this.
Hats off to Steve. You have guts man.
But there is something I don't understand, if it wasn't them, then who's ropes did you sh#t on to get the nickname?
(kidding)
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Peter
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Dec 10, 2011 - 11:15pm PT
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I am shocked and appalled.
Wasted off a six pack. Shameful.
Apart from that, great post.
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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Dec 10, 2011 - 11:28pm PT
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Valley drama...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2011 - 11:43pm PT
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Reposted from another thread:
It's a beautiful test and drama of life that the WOS team should undergo this giant epic on the stone and epic of controversy in the climbing community only to be finally vindicated and pass the test of their professed Christianity by forgiving their transgressor. It's like topping out at the end of a 30 year big wall epic.
and also a beautiful example that Steve should come, as a super accomplished climber with his hat in his hand, demonstrating that someone once famous for his hubris could admit his mistake humbly and publicly come clean without defensiveness.
Humanity rarely sees such victories and the bloodlust for punishment pales by comparison. We've all made mistakes and done wrong. For once, it lead to a good example and transformation all around
PEace
Karl
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Dec 10, 2011 - 11:45pm PT
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Coz: Russ,
That's rich coming from you...
Still leg humping I see... figures.
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ruppell
climber
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Dec 10, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
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Sh#t poopi(yes i thought that was funny)
If that's you're mid-life confession what are you saving for your death bed?
Congrats for owning up to it like a man should.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Dec 10, 2011 - 11:50pm PT
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Steve, first really got to know you at the C4 Bachar Memorial and will always appreciate your being there and your comments about John that evening.
I'm not surprised at this thread. We all make mistakes living life on this planet. Few have the personal integrity to address them and try to set things right. It's a blessing to know you. lynne
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 11, 2011 - 04:11am PT
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Big deal...! A silly prank , 30 years past , sends the C4 community into a frenzy....Get a life everyone and keep your nose out of Steve and the other party poopers business...RJ
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Dec 11, 2011 - 05:24am PT
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It should not be minimized as just a silly little prank. It was an extremely strong physical demonstration of contempt and not being accepted, and for some people there are few things that could be more deeply hurtful. It sends a strong negative message that resonates with the deepest fears or vulnerabilities that many people have: "I'm worthless", "I'm not likeable or loveable", "I don't deserve to be happy" etc. These feelings are passed between people like a virus, transmitted in automatic and thoughtless or even premeditated and vindictive reactions in a vain attempt to cope with our own pain.
So the act itself, while superficially childish and petty, was profoundly destructive to spirit more so than to the ropes. This is all the more reason why it was so hard to step up and take responsibility. The passage of time probably made it harder and harder too.
Steve, it really takes a lot of guts to handle it as you have now, and I respect that infinitely more than any hard rock climbing accomplishment.
Today, you passed along antibodies to help us all kill the emotional and spiritual viruses that infect us all to greater or lesser extents.
Thank you.
Mark and Richard, thank you also for being pillars of integrity and courage.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 11, 2011 - 08:10am PT
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Nutjob has a good point. Bullying is never acceptable and it often causes scars beyond what the bullys could imagin at the time.
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oldtopangalizard
Social climber
ca
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Dec 11, 2011 - 09:21am PT
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Different perspective. I never met SS, buy we all know he's one of the all time greats on the rock. Of course he was so good at such a young age, it could not have been easy with all the politics.
I went to a slide show in the 90's, it may have been the Scott, Messner, Bonnington series, when I came across Steve's dad. A bunch of people were milling about after the show, telling lies, autographs, the usual. So I strike it up with this older gentleman, he was by himself, who starts telling me his son really likes to climb, he thinks it good for him and such. He goes on about the beautiful slides and stories we just went through and asked me questions about climbing. I tell him the truth; I will never do any of the climbs we just saw.
The guy had to be one of the most humble, easy going guys you have ever met. He tells me who his son is, like he's a weekend climber, and mentions once again what a great sport for all young guys to get into. He must spend a fair amount of time outdoors. This guy was the salt of the earth. Definitely the kind of guy you want to be friends with for the rest of your life.
The point is, at the end of the day (growing up, seeing life after spending a good amount of it as an adult) we all seem to end up like our parents. Be it good or bad.
I don't know Steve, never met him, but I did meet his father.
Steve is a lucky guy, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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Dec 11, 2011 - 10:23am PT
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I thought the name "Shipoopoi" was related to the musical 'Music Man' or perhaps the more modern redition performed by Peter Griffin and the Silly Nannies.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 11, 2011 - 10:28am PT
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i wish i knew where it came from--some kind of midwestern lore. i'm from that part of the country, but i never heard it before willson's epic musical.
the girl who'll kiss on the very first date
is usually a hussy
and the girl who'll kiss on the second time out
is anything but fussy ...
but the girl who kisses on the third time out
--she's your shipoopi--the girl who's hard to get.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Dec 11, 2011 - 10:43am PT
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apologies and forgiveness
I'll bet it feels good to have the weight off for both parties
Everybody does things that don't shine and you can pull on that rope all you want but you can't reverse time
so good for you for forward and moving on
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johnwesely
Trad climber
Athens, Ga
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Dec 11, 2011 - 12:19pm PT
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I really wish I could do something awful, apologize almost thirty years later, and be idolized for it. I am sure it wasn't easy to do, I doubt a lesser person would have done it, but apologizing after doing something like that shouldn't be easy.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 11, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
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Tami...I think it could make a long run on Broadway...? Will they have to use stunt doubles...? RJ
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Hilt
Social climber
Utah
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Dec 11, 2011 - 02:35pm PT
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Now this is an act full of character and class.
We "ALL" do horrible stuff, yet what separates "Great Men" from the rest is what is done after the fact. Do we realize what we've done? Claim responsibility, make an effort to fix it or do we ignore it? Pretend it never happened, shift blame, etc... (Since I've done a good share of pretending and shifting the blame. I know how much easier it is to be less.)
I hope one day I get to meet you Steve. It's rare to meet a Great Man I can learn from in this day and age.
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Thelonius Fan
climber
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Dec 11, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
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Steve - REally nice post. How wonderful life is when we can forgive and be forgiven. Proud of you.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Dec 11, 2011 - 04:07pm PT
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I can't wait for "Wings of Steel" the musical
Starring: Sodapop and Johnny as Mark and Richard
Ma and Pa Kettle as Steve and mimi
The Cartwrights as the Valley Locals
Two-bit as Pass the Pitons Pete
Wilford Brimley as Werner
Jack Sparrow and Elizabeth Swann as the 2nd ascent team
That dude from Weird Science as Shipoopi
Kanye and the smoke monster as the other shitters
With a special appearance by Alf
....Leif Garrett as The Fish...
...and the Greatest American Hero as THE COZ
Should be a big hit.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Dec 11, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
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Thanks for posting your apology, Steve. You show empathy and respect for the guys you wronged. You also give the rest of us insight into the mob mentality in that circumstance, which is also relevant to many of our responses on this forum. I appreciate the image you paint of the carabiner with all the small copperheads. It was not enough to stop the momentum of the moment, but it seems like it has worked on you over time.
Richard, Whenever you complained about the cowardice of the shitters and how they should come forward and apologize, I just smirked. "No one is ever going to confess. And even if they did, what good would it do?" Now Steve goes and confesses in a really decent way and it truly feels like it is doing a lot of good.
Richard, I have been rereading some of your early posts from 2005 and they seem even more fascinating and touching now. I still find myself annoyed at certain aspects of your writing and defenses. Yet, I find myself more and more impressed with your tenacity on the rock and in trying to explain yourself. It has been a very educational process reading this long and crazy conversation. Thanks for sticking with it and making such a long effort to explain to so many strangers.
I won't join the group hug, Steve, but down the road I will be curious to hear what longer term repercussions and lessons you experience. Also, in this day of pseudo apologies that don't actually apologize for anything, that was a good apology, plus an additional viewpoint on the times. Thank you.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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Dec 11, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
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Kind of a sad thought: many of our big weird community didn't even last long enough to grow up, as Steve seems to have. So many gone too soon, and too young. Thanks, Shipoopi (a great neighbor), for putting a mystery to rest... with maturity and contrition.
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Dec 11, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
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"Fair" is a Human invention. Fuck your fair. The Universe could care less. That's just how it goes.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Dec 11, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
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I would watch the WOS musical over and over until Glee did their own version of it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 11, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
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Paul, thank you very much for your post. And you are being kind to call some of my rants "tenacity". SO hard to know where to draw the line, and, at some point early on, I decided to err on the side of being as "in the face" of the "strangers" as people had been in our faces. I am SURE that I at times crossed the best possible line and did err. But most people kept an open enough mind anyway that the truth could ultimately find acceptance. I am honestly humbled by that and thank people for putting up with some of my more vociferous rants. But, bottom line, is that what Steve has done here is magnificent, and it's an honor to receive and accept such an honorable apology. To me, what Steve has done is the focus of this thread. I do, however, very much appreciate your post.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 11, 2011 - 08:52pm PT
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There's no better feeling that fixing something broken and building bridges where there's nothing but burnt pilings.
A bit dramatic as usual but way more edifying that a lot that's said around here.
Nice work Steve, Richard and Mark.
This tune seems aproppriate.
http://youtu.be/3Eb_UXDxUbs
Peace
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Dec 11, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
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You are correct, Wyna. That changes nothing.
Fair does not matter, except to the likes of us.
Feel better?
BTW, I like Shipoopi, nevertheless. But then, for me, he's a man, not a disembodied voice that may or not in fact be one.
Unlike most of you.
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Gary
climber
That Long Black Cloud Is Coming Down
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Dec 11, 2011 - 09:00pm PT
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Steve Schneider,
Never met you, probably never will, but no matter what might have happened years ago, it takes a big man to write what you did.
That's hellacool, dude.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Dec 11, 2011 - 09:21pm PT
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Steve has more class than his main detractor, MTucker.
TruDat. And Mucker doesn't even have the balls to tell us who he is and whether he climbs anything harder than his couch, or anything at all.
Many many of us on here have partners on ST, Folks that we've climbed with and can attest to who we are.
At least we know what kind of stuff Steve has climbed....
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YoungGun
climber
North
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Dec 11, 2011 - 10:42pm PT
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What Gary said.
And I respect Steve all the more for his climbing achievements after reading his opening post. Open and humble, and commendable for that.
And as far as shitty topics go, this one is pretty worthwhile.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 13, 2011 - 09:47am PT
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That was a very proud and runout send by Steve of a route that had been haunting him for three decades. It took a lot of courage to face down his fears and confront them head on.
There are comments above about "fairness", which is a relevant concept. Forgiveness is inherently "unfair", because it requires you to make the conscious decision to let someone off the hook - the very person who hurt you the most. It is a free gift to the one who did the hurting, a gift that can't be earned. But it also lets you off the hook, too, because it frees your heart from the burden of bitterness and unforgiveness.
For Mark and Richard to graciously forgive Steve proves that they not only talk the talk, they climb the climb.
I know the depths of the hurt for all involved, and how much healing will take place in their hearts.
Lots of nice warm squishy feelings here!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 13, 2011 - 09:59am PT
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Indeed. Insulin, anyone?
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Dec 13, 2011 - 10:23am PT
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There is guilt and there is shame.
Steve will always be guilty for this one. He has carried the shame for almost 30 years - long enough for anyone to be burdened by something as ugly as shame, even for a hurtful prank spun from youthful folly.
The FAistas had and continues to have spine, the SA team proved that, and one of the antagonists showed class by stetching a hand out to close this silly but painful chapter in YV history.
Steve was always a standup guy to me. But that doesn't matter now, does it?
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Dec 13, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
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Climbing is hard, growing up is harder, and admitting mistakes that we made in the process is even more difficult.
Good on Steve for doing the right thing. I hope that all of the players in this drama get the acceptance and forgiveness that they need.
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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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Dec 13, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
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Why is Steve getting all the attention here? How about every last motherf*#ker who gave Richard and Mark sh#t for the last 30 years apologize. The local mob mentality that caused all the Valley locals to vilify these guys before they started their climb still exists in many places. It's one of the sadder things about the climbing community.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 13, 2011 - 02:38pm PT
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Have you read all the posts above? Actually, a few others have also apologized to Mark and Richard. :) Of course you'll never get every last one, but there has definitely been a lot of really positive progress made.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Dec 13, 2011 - 02:41pm PT
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Sorry guys. Even tho I can't remember slamming them at all.
I was in the USAF, so wasn't around for the feeding frenzy.
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lightninglycett
climber
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Dec 13, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
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Wow, good job steve, I hope I don't have to apologize for letting the air out of your tires that night.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Dec 13, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
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way to go Steve. You have always been a class act in my mind,
Takes balls to fess up here.
Kurt
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 13, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
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Good job Steve. It's our secrets that make us sick.
Takes balls to fess up here.
OK then, here goes: I killed Jimmy Hoffa.
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neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Dec 13, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
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Good on you for fessin' up....
...while were at it i once put some cat shite in my brothers cargo pocket on his shorts that he wore to school..he didnt find it for 6 hrs....im goin' to hell.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 13, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
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Voice of John Cleese:
"We would like to apologize for the previous apology."
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 13, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
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I apologize for helping this thread hit 10,000 posts.
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Dec 13, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
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Wow. That story brought a tear to my eye and a lump in my throat, Steve.
I wish I understood why, but it doesn't really matter.
Excellent.
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CaNewt
Mountain climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 13, 2011 - 08:22pm PT
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Props to my brother Steve. Good on you.
And, I marvel at and deeply appreciate the generousity and forgiveness of Mark and Richard.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Dec 13, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
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i remember a little skinny guy with glasses and a sting ray that pooped on ropes in the eighties.
they called him poopee.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 14, 2011 - 12:47am PT
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Hell, I know people who feel less remorse for killing off a family of seven vietnamese.
Don,t stress the small stuff, but heroic of you to come out in public. Here,s to public confessions.
(Typed on my android)
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Floyd Hayes
Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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Dec 14, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
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I just saw and read this thread for the first time. And I'm very, very, very impressed, Steve, with your courage in coming forward to apologize. We all make mistakes; what matters most is whether we have learned any lessons. You've earned my respect!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 14, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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That Shipoopi is a pretty damn cool human! Even if he is a Miramonte alum....
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pbernard02
Trad climber
Chester, CA
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Dec 15, 2011 - 12:03am PT
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One of the best threads on the site... I hope other people are inspired to do the same things and right the wrongs of the past. It's never too late. Thanks for sharing the story.
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Mary Moser
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Dec 16, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
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You took the initiative to apologize, even after all these years. For this I have the utmost respect for you, Steve. It takes a man of integrity to admit to wrongdoing. Bravo!
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FeelioBabar
Trad climber
One drink ahead of my past.
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Dec 16, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
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Accountability is a wonderful thing. Strong work Steve.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 16, 2011 - 06:19pm PT
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Handel's Messiah has lyrics quite appropriate to this:
"He was despised and rejected of men;
a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
He gave His back to the smiters,
and His cheeks to them that plucked off the hair:
He hid not His face from shame and spitting."
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Heloise Pendergrast
Social climber
Tahoe City
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Dec 16, 2011 - 06:42pm PT
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Steve, thank you for baring your humanity. We are all fallible. This is what makes us relate to one another--not in spite of our mistakes and shortcomings, but rather because of them. I hope this inspires others to right a wrong. I'm inspired: In the eighties I pulled on a piece on the last move of the 1st pitch of Outer Limits. There.
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kenny morrell
Trad climber
danville,ca
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Dec 16, 2011 - 09:22pm PT
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steve - just read it, I'm really glad you had the guts not only to confess here publicly on taco but to call both richard and mark personally. sleep now peacefully. take care peace kenny
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Dec 16, 2011 - 09:42pm PT
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Find it hard to bag on a guy asking for forgivness, getting it from those who can forgive and admitting to doing wrong! I'd take that guy as a friend anyday!
Peace
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Beautiful_Corn
Trad climber
Brooklyn Park, MD
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Dec 17, 2011 - 12:31am PT
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I will probably never have the pleasure of meeting Steve Schneider, but he will live on forever in my mind as the man who taught me how to check if the climber tied in. To this day, my wife and I still do this move to each other to jokingly verify we are tied in properly.
5 minutes, 10 seconds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=mrcBC-o6gD8
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Dec 17, 2011 - 01:17am PT
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always check yer knot! lol
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OP
Mountain climber
Utah
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Dec 20, 2011 - 06:13pm PT
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Good Post, I understand where you have been and where you are going, Enjoy the ride.
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ec
climber
ca
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Strange...this was almost exactly a year ago...
ec
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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May 22, 2014 - 02:36am PT
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New thread title:
An as#@&%e repents
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| Messages 1 - 159 of total 159 in this topic |
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