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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Mar 16, 2003 - 02:25am PT
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Hi Greg,
Are these the same as the 'euro' ring bolts that I've seen on El Cap? The bolt is flared at the head where the ring attaches and the ring is about 1 1/2" in diameter but made of fairly thin diameter metal? Am I on the right track?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2003 - 02:42am PT
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Not sure - I don't remember them as flared, and I haven't seen the El Cap ones.
But otherwise sounds right, the ring is pretty thin and 1.5" in diameter.
Greg
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Nemo
Big Wall climber
Colorado Springs, CO
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Mar 16, 2003 - 02:56pm PT
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are they drilled ring angles, like you occasionally find in the desert? or is this something different?
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Loom
climber
K P Pinnacle or Gehenna
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Mar 16, 2003 - 03:44pm PT
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I've seen these bolts on El Cap too. They're not ring angles. They're some weird euro crap. Over-sized grenade pins. The rings (maybe the bolt too?) seem to be made from some pretty mild steel. I remember an anchor composed of 3 of these bolts near the top of the PO (a variation finish?) and all 3 rings had varying amounts of deformation. They drooped and had become ovoid shaped from being hauled on.
I have no idea what holds the bolt in there, so I don't have any suggestions on how to chop/pull them. They definitely should be removed.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2003 - 04:46pm PT
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Yeah, that's them - oversized grenade pins!
The ring on the one on Left Water Crack is a bit bent as well, somone probably fell on it at some point.
Maybe Marty Karabin (sp?) in AZ, the guy with the HUGE bolt/hanger collection, has one - anyone have contact info for him?
Greg
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Mar 16, 2003 - 09:04pm PT
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"Over-sized grenade pins"
Now that's freakin' funny!
Pull the pin and you die.
The ones I've seen had deformed rings too. Ug!
They looked like they might be a hammer-in type bolt, but not sure. Chop 'em!
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Mike
climber
Orange County CA
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Mar 17, 2003 - 11:20am PT
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Sounds like a few have seen the toy anchor up high on the PO - three of those goldish-colored, deformed-ring grenade pins. At least in this spot you can equalize them all as one anchor piece and place a couple of good ones behind the block.
A claw hammer or crow bar with a scrap of plywood or two to protect the rock and position the fulcrum looks like the removal ticket. Wear a flack jacket...
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Mar 17, 2003 - 01:06pm PT
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Those things are also on LIA and BUBS.
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susan peplow
climber
sweltering phoenix-az
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Mar 17, 2003 - 03:09pm PT
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hey greg,
i'll see marty tonight and ask him to contact you. for future reference........
karabin714@aol.com
susan
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Ammon McNeely
Big Wall climber
Bay Area
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Mar 19, 2003 - 11:56pm PT
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Whooahh!! Those things are dicey...... to haul on anyways.
Although, I didn't see them on BUBS or LIA.
I did see them on the last belay station before you get to the summit of the PO.
Is that a variation? It was dark... and 3:00am.
I remember the rings being VERY oval.... and thin.
Yiiikess!!! I thought it was a cruel joke.
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Loom
climber
K P Pinnacle or Gehenna
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Mar 20, 2003 - 12:15am PT
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Hey Ammon,
Variation? I don't know; I've never seen a topo or heard of anything.
When I first did the PO I just had the old topo and went left where the SuperTopo says, "off route." That funneled me right into that anchor. When I did SS to PO I went to the right, as the ST shows, and I set up my anchor a little lower and farther to the right. I remember looking at that "anchor" and thinking one could go straight up a crack from there, but I don't know what happens after that short steep crack right above it.
Scott
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Ammon McNeely
Big Wall climber
Bay Area
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Mar 20, 2003 - 01:17pm PT
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Thanks Scott,
I didn't have a SuperTopo, not sure what it looks like. I'm pretty sure it's the 27th belay from the Donni Reid book.
I kept thinking "This can't be the belay".
The worst part was there was no way to avoid clipping the suspect rings, except tieing the bolts off short with a sling.
Was I on route?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2003 - 11:50am PT
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Hey Larry, thanks!
That does look just like them, although I didn't notice any taper at the surface - perhaps they cratered the top of the hole, or maybe it's a variation on the bolt.
Any ideas on how to pull them? First thought is just do a way hard funk straight out, but it'd probably break the ring. Maybe pound a sharp-groove prybar onto the bolt then pry?
Unfortunately it does look like the basically-unremovable-Long-life design...
Greg
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Larry
Trad climber
Reno NV
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May 22, 2003 - 03:43pm PT
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Funking would be worth a try of course. The ring does look like the weak point though.
I'd be prepared to cut the ring out, then insert a punch into the remaining hole, and drive wedges against that.
Drilling out the long-life-style center pin would probably be key.
I once saw a homemade jack-style bolt puller. Maybe that would work.
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bspisak
climber
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Aug 15, 2005 - 02:31pm PT
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Haven't seen any updates to this with respect to the Dike Route, and the old fixed ring is still there next to the new ASCA bolt.
Does anyone know which was the original protection: the old bolt or the ring? FWIW, this particular ring appears to be much more bomber than the "grenade pin" version mentioned in this thread.
I don't like second guessing someone's decision making when I don't have the whole scoop (especially Gregg's given the great work he's been doing.) However, my first impression is that the old bolt should have been chopped and the ring left as the only protection.
Of course this is all in hindsight, but even if the old bolt was replaced with the intention of eventually chopping the ring, the fact that it was a questionable proposition should have been carefully considered. Of the 4 possible outcomes (new bolt only, old ring only, old bolt and old ring, or new bolt and old ring) I would argue that the current situation (new bolt and old ring) is almost worse than the original situation (old bolt and old ring.)
If the old bolt was left until it was determined that the ring could be chopped, then the option to remove the old bolt and leave just the ring would be preserved. Of course, the new bolt could be chopped, but the resulting damage to the rock is much greater than what the old would have left.
Leaving the old ring only or having the new bolt only seem like the only desirable outcomes. If the ring were determined to be the original pro, then if it could not be chopeed, there was perhaps only one option: ring only.
Even if the ring were NOT original, if it could not be chopped, I would argue that it would have been better to leave it as the only protection. First of all, it looks bomber enough to belay a truck. Secondly, given the nature of the route (harder climbing with longer runouts above), it is extremely unlikley that it would ever be needed. (Even if it was, the low angle nature of that section would mean it wouldn't be subjected to high impact forces.) Third, it gives the route a classic old/school feel. Lastly, the current situation is, IMHO, ugly and feels like a hack. (No insult intended, just my opinion, and we all know opinions are like as#@&%es, everyone's got one.)
Don't want to start a flame war, and certainly not trying to dis the ASCA. Just curious what other people think about this and see if perhaps there are any new ideas on how to chop the old ring?
Brian
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
right behind you
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Aug 15, 2005 - 06:03pm PT
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DEAR GOD, those are so short!
I am glad I didn't use those ones on the PO. I thought the deformed rings looked bad, but seeing how short the shaft is, I am horrified.
I didn't clip them, so they aren't necessary and should be chopped, and not replaced!
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Aug 15, 2005 - 08:15pm PT
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Petzl also made a version of the ring bolt. The Petzl had a slightly larger tapered cone that that bolt hammered into, expanding the bolt's base. It's probably still in their catalog, I think the Euro's still use the 8mm and 10mm shallow self-drill bolts which are similar.
If the funkness doesn't work, you could take an acetylene torch and cut the bolt off flush with the rock. A climber who probably should-forever-remain-nameless back in 1988 made a backpack acetylene torch set-up and cut all the bolts off the steep wall on Windy Point (which had recently been sport-bolted on rappel) in Tucson.
It only took him a few hours to clear about 30 3/8" bolts.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2005 - 10:25pm PT
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Brian, your response is entirely based on your perception of those bolts as "bomber." If I thought those were bomber I would have done as you suggested and just pulled & patched the old bolt. My initial reaction was "heinously weak looking." Stories of the bent rings on those bolts on El Cap seem to back up that assessment. We won't really know unless someone tested them.
It's a good reminder, I'll go up there soon and see if I can just funk out the bolt. If the ring breaks, maybe we can find the acetylene torch backpack?
As to the originality of the bolt, obviously the ring is a lot newer than 1966, so the old Leeper would be the original one (but remember that the FA allowed retrobolting of the Dike Route back when it first went up, so you'd have to know which ones he did on the FA and which were added right after).
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Aug 16, 2005 - 12:02am PT
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hi,
I think deuce is right. In the mid 80's about when sport climbing was growing in the states petzl made a ring bolt, REI even sold them I think. They were constant diameter with a small pin in the end so in a hole drilled the right depth the pin would flare the bolt to lock it in place. the ones I remember are fairly short, about 2" long, with the funky ring (welded) on the end. Good luck.
G
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 16, 2005 - 01:24am PT
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Hey Greg,
There's a good chance that you could successfully funk it out w/o breaking the ring. Pullout strength on that bolt has to be crap.
Remember that oversized "tuning fork" that I made out of a 1" cold chisel? From the looks of the photo, I think that would work. It might require a 3/8" wide slot, so maybe making one from a 1-1/2" chisel would be best. A claw hammer would do the same thing, especially if you were to modify the slot to fit the diameter of the bolt.
Buenas suerte,
John
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Landgolier
climber
Arlington, VA
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Aug 16, 2005 - 10:03am PT
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Man, I had a pucker moment when I saw that pic of these. I was going to suggest what zardoz said, take some cable with you and thread those little brotherchuckers once the ring breaks. I guess you'd have to carry a swage tool too and crimp a loop, or you could thread, make a mini-funkness, clip both loops, then cut and reuse one side.
If you're not doing 30 a day, I'm not sure a cutting wheel on a drill wouldn't be easier than the acetylene rig. Be sure to memorize some good lines from Ghostbusters if you do head up with a tennessee speed wrench strapped to your back, tho. "Each of us is wearing an unlicensed nuclear accelerator on our back. No problem."
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kev
climber
CA
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Aug 16, 2005 - 01:46pm PT
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I've seen another one somewhere in the meadows this year. I'll talk to my partners and see if they remember where so I can let you know. Sorta sad (in a nostalgic way) to see them go but they need to. Thanks Gregg!
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couchmaster
climber
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Duece4 said:
If the funkness doesn't work, you could take an acetylene torch and cut the bolt off flush with the rock. A climber who probably should-forever-remain-nameless back in 1988 made a backpack acetylene torch set-up and cut all the bolts off the steep wall on Windy Point (which had recently been sport-bolted on rappel) in Tucson.
It only took him a few hours to clear about 30 3/8" bolts.
_
I just saw this. Holy crap that's some risky business Deuce. Hard dirty brutal dangerous work. Hanging on a wall, probably with dark glasses as a shield, with hot red burning metal sparks and the torch itself trying to melt your rope with heavy tanks hanging off you someplace.... H-O-L-Y F*ing S-H-I-T I think that I just sh#t my pants right here at my desk and my testicles climbed right up past my Adams apple to my mouth. I can't talk from reading that...... I'm buying that man a beer if he's still alive and I run into him. OMG!! That there is a MAN!
So, how the hell do you pull out an old rusty POS stud (standard wedge anchor, 3/8", steel) so you can re-use the hole? BTW, the correct answer isn't a large 2' crowbar. It gets great purchase but didn't budge it. Joseph has linked some Steve Grossman ST stuff the discussion is starting over here: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/893078#Post893078
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jstan
climber
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Try Home Depot. I got my small oxyacetylene set up there and they probably still carry them. About $300 as I remember. With a cutting torch I would think you should easily be able to melt the bolt well down into the hole so you can get a good epoxy/rock patch.
If you have the right torch tip you can probably put a hook into the same hole you are clearing with the torch and so avoid coming down on rappel. Get a camelback and direct a stream of water at the tip of the hook.
Using a rappel would be poor style.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Dude noooooooo. You can't yank the Water Crack bolts those are CLASSICS. Who actually falls on those things anyway. Please leave them for posterity.
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Big Joe
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 22, 2014 - 10:11am PT
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Does anyone know who made these? The assumption around these parts, Boulder, CO, has always been Mammut. Was it instead Petzl or maybe both? And does anyone by chance have a spec sheet on these things? We called Mammut and they don't have any recollection of them or ever distributing.
The ask for a spec sheet is to try and ascertain the Rockwell Hardness for the metal so we can correctly select drill bit hardness for attempts at center drilling which may allow for funking and/or using subsequent taping and then threading with a stud and wrench to pull.
Here is a brief article on some techniques we have used to attempt to remove. If the original install hole is too long then they do not expand correctly when placed and can be funked out fairly easy. The rings will bend a bit on heavy funking. However, we have discovered that text book installs can not be removed even with a high force hydraulic puller w/out damaging the rock. They are bomber if installed correctly, but a PITA to clip.
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Sep 22, 2014 - 11:38am PT
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I'm pretty sure they were sold by Mammut around 1988-89. I had a mail order climbing gear company back then and sold them. (fortunately, I didn't sell many of them!)
I placed a few of them which you will find on obscure crags in the Platte. If memory serves me, CG originally used them on Paris Girl.
Each bolt was sold with another piece use to drill the hole - they looked like these, without the cone in place:
Assuming you were hand drilling, you also needed a handle that held the drilling bolt so you could hammer drill the hole - wish I had a picture of those. They were a pain to place and I'll bet most were not placed correctly.
They also sold hangers and cap screws that could be used with the bolts pictured above.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Sep 22, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
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They are probably the venerable Stubai ring bolt though they were actually a generic product so I´ve seen them referred to as Kong or Cassin as well. Plenty of them around in the Alps.
The best way to get them out is start with rotating them a lot with a big pipe wrench then pull a bit then turn more. Better than nothing in a bit of granite, not that good in sandstone!
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Big Joe
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 22, 2014 - 12:09pm PT
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Bubba,
Thanks for the reply. Yes Cristian did use them on Paris Girls. There are probably 40 or so in Eldo and more in the Flat Irons and Boulder Canyon. Right now we are mostly chopping with a grinder and patching, but ideally would like to re-use the holes.
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Sep 22, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
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Joe, I have no idea how to get them out of softer stone like Eldo without rock breakage around the hole.
The only ones I have pulled were some that had the rings cut on a new route in the Platte. I put a bolt through the hole, attached chain and funked them out. None of the holes were reusable as the rock broke around the hole.
If you could build a jig to center drill them to cut the cone in the bottom, they would come out easily. The steel is soft enough and based on some of the fancy stuff Greggerman had at Anarchy when we rebolted that, it might be possible. I guess I envision cutting off the ring, then putting a jig over the bolt head that has something that goes in the ring holes to hold in in place and keep everything from spinning, but not far enough in to interfere with the drill. Since the bolt is mostly hollow, it seems like a limited amount of drilling would be necessary. If you could then cut a bit of the expansion cone off, they would pull easily.
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Big Joe
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 23, 2014 - 10:06am PT
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Bubba, I do not think a jig will work as a flat surface is not guaranteed and it might be complicated with adjustable legs to get the angle just right. Careful, slow and well lubed hand center drilling should work. We are in the process of seeing if we can determine the Rockwell Hardness for proper drill bit selection. Will update when know more.
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Big Joe
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 24, 2014 - 09:53am PT
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Bubba,
Let me know if you or anyone else has some Mammut/Cassin/Kong/Stubai ring bolts. I am looking around for some more to practice removal techniques. Post up here and I'll get in touch with you ASAP.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 24, 2014 - 10:53am PT
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If you want to get a clean pull on a cone expansion type anchor like this and avoid the possibility of a nasty crater then the only good option is drilling a cone diameter sized hole all the way to the bottom of the hole to clear away the cone directly and thereby negate its holding power. Never a fun or cheap option as you need to use cobalt bits and cutting oil to get that job done properly. Mask around the hole to keep the cutting oil from becoming a problem. A bit of aluminum foil comes in handy to catch the oil and metal shards as part of the masking.
This type of anchor fortunately never became popular over here.
The self driving shield type expansion anchor has internal threads that can be used to remove the shield as long as you are able to clear out the machine bolt to reinsert a longer machine bolt with the threads ground away to allow it to contact the cone directly. You want to use a Grade 8 machine bolt for this type of extraction as it doesn't take a big amount of torque to shear a 1/4" or 5/16" machine bolt head right off.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Sep 25, 2014 - 09:25pm PT
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Mount Lemmon Route right of Steves Arete is "Green Ripper 5.12 that has those ring bolts. For sure they are Mammut Ring Bolts since I have a few that are stamped "Mammut." Drill the hole, put cone in end, put unit into hole and beat the crap out of it. Great for Granite! Came out in the early 1980s? Or earlier? Lord of the Rings route is also named for these ring bolts.
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| Messages 1 - 39 of total 39 in this topic |
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Left Water Crack (one of the 3 bolts)
Let us know!