Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 44 of total 44 in this topic |
skywalker
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 15, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
|
I have no plans to climb this thing in the next few years, as I have a fledgling family but I live part of my previous life vicariously through this website.
I was looking at the Supertopo description and it says placing gear can be more scary than going with out it. Being weak and out of shape due to above mentioned reasons, my question is could you just place a #6 or valley giant and clip in with a daisy and use it as a "crutch"? (walking it along) I know elite climbers would scoff at this proposal but for "regular" folks who have had their time to crank but find themselves like me and happy with a "boggy" does this seem like a solution?
The application could be to many other situations.
Thanks for any input.
Cheers!!!
S....
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2011 - 05:26pm PT
|
The style police won't turn you around if you take aid on the Hollow Flake, but if you take aid on one piece when you're far out and the piece fails, the consequences aren't so fun. (It has happened there, and I can think of a couple of other serious accidents as well.)
|
|
skywalker
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2011 - 05:41pm PT
|
Hmmmm...Melissa...Damn, i was hoping for an enthusiastic "Yes, Brilliant!". I will look towards the other "applications" and hone my groveling skills for the future Salathe.
Thanks!
Cheers!!!
S...
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
|
6" is too small, and a Valley Giant would only protect you for a couple of moves [see Tom's comment below, though - I haven't actually used Valley Giants; he makes and uses them].
The upper part is something like 14", so your body fits it, and it is low angle there so you can rest if you want. Bring kneepads.
The crux couple of moves are ow size, but low angle and your leg fits in the crack so you are not going to fall out. You can actually just pinch the arete and do 2 pullups. No ow moves required.
It is only 5.8 and is done routinely.
[Edit 1:] One other thing: I left behind the entire rack and haul line - just took 2 biners for the anchor. Then I pulled up the haul line, pulley, etc, and let the lead line back down. Less rack weight makes chimneys much easier.
[Edit 2:] The lowest part is about 2 lieback moves where you are toproped (assuming you tension across left as high as possible), then about 40' of 4th class jug flakes and standing on chockstones. No reason to put any pro in there (it would just give you rope drag and not protect any hard moves).
Then you have a 10' semi-steep 6-7" section (i.e. flake does not lean left but main wall is low angle). I could throw my whole right leg in there, twist it slightly, and let go with both hands. That enabled me to pinch the edge of the flake with both hands and do a pullup, move my right leg up, move hands up and do a second pullup, move leg up, then reach a jug.
If you do not fit this or are doing conventional ow moves, this is probably the crux and could feel like 5.9.
Last is a long tight chimney section (14" or so) but the edge of the flake leans back, so if you were to let go, you would just slide down into the chimney instead of falling out of the flake (*IF* your hips are narrow enough, like mine are). Kneepads help here, otherwise you could get some painful bruises.
[Edit 3:]
Tom Evans' photo of me leading the upper part (behind 2 other parties)
Looks like I have 2 ropes?
[Edit 4:]
(It has been 4 years, so some of the details may be off, like the exact position of the pendulum anchor, and the exact location of the crux.)
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2011 - 07:06pm PT
|
I thought it was fully 5.9, and less secure than many b/c it flares and I never really did feel like I was safely inside of it. But I was pretty gripped and always think that stuff that other people think is easy is hard.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2011 - 07:14pm PT
|
I remember when I did the Salathe with my wife and told her this Hollow Flake pitch is your lead.
It's piss easy I said.
Here take this rack and it's all you need. Heh heh
I gave her a few small cams.
Then she swings over there and was dumbfounded.
Hey!!!! Where do I place these things she asked as there's no place they fit.
I replied; "At the belay" ......
|
|
Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
|
There was a thread about five plus years ago, which I can't find right now. What the guy did is take two lead ropes, after the penji on rope one, he placed a piece and clipped in rope two. The last piece was a bigbro4, I think. Apparently, you still run it to the anchor but you have a few pieces in for the 5.9 and you have no rope drag. To be clear, I haven't done this- just read about it.
Zander
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
|
It seems like you'd still have hella rope drag b/c your 2nd rope would be a big V. But if you did it w/ one rope (running a big Z) you probably wouldn't be able to move.
|
|
Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
|
Skywalker, you don't really want to be on this wall unless you are in pretty damn good shape. Hollow Flake is only one of many physical and mental challenges and the route is something like 36 pitches long as well--- lotsa chimneys, offwidths, and other goodies.
|
|
skywalker
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
|
Peter you are so right. I don't belong on any wall right now but it was just 6 years ago I was climbing hard in the Black, desert, etc. Like I said raising a family I poke around at these things.
Couple more years...
Cheers
|
|
nature
climber
Kovalum Kerala India
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2011 - 09:06pm PT
|
take the biggest cam you have and push it until it tips out. and then keep climbing... and climbing... and climbing. And for gods sake just don't fall out of the thing.
then go get yourself the hollow flake YCA shirt from simon's site and be proud wearing that thing.
When I think back on all the climbing I've done I can say that pitch might just be the most memorable. So exciting.
I recall being at the last move which isn't easy. I probably sat there for 10 minutes maybe 50 feet out from the tipped out big cam. A meditation practice comes in handy.
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2011 - 09:36pm PT
|
The #9 Valley Giant fits the upper part of the Hollow Flake Crack, except for a few feet at the very top. A BD6 or WC6 is too small for most of the crack.
I've heard of people leading up and across the penji with one rope, and then using a second lead rope to clip their pro, i.e., the Euro twin rope system. A single rope would have too much rope drag if you clipped pieces down low. The broken area where the penji swings in can take the odd nut, cam, sling around a chockstone, clipping the rotten slings already there, etc.
Or, you could daisy into several pieces, and move them one at a time until you get up into the offwidth proper.
The VG cams have been specifically designed for pushing up as you go - the trigger wires are solid spring wire (not floppy cable) that keeps the head of the cam stable as it slides up the crack.
EDIT: Zander already called out the twin-rope strategy above.
I did the Hollow Flake as part of Bermuda Dunes, which does not entail a penji. Bermuda Dunes follows the entire crack beginning at the bottom, finger/hand/fist section.
|
|
skywalker
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2011 - 01:09am PT
|
Quote Here
"then go get yourself the hollow flake YCA shirt from simon's site and be proud wearing that thing"
Nature, that's hilarious! I'm not asking for specific beta. Not to keep a mediocre thread going...but I really find myself wanting to do what I did in my 20's going and I'm trying to find solutions to my previous strengths. "Keep the Dream Alive" if you will. I used hollow flake as an example but the reality is if I can use a little ingenuity perhaps "stopper" pitches can be overcome by intelligence not brawn. Anyway thanks for the input and I'll continue to move upwards in anyway I can...and down of course.
Cheers!!! It's Friday!
S....
How the hell do you quote things here??? Rhetorical question...
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2011 - 01:12am PT
|
Hollow Flake, nothing special needed: I agree with Werner, it's not very hard.
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2011 - 05:31am PT
|
Here's what the Hollow Flake Crack looks like, below where the Salathe swings in to meet it.
Maybe Robbins, Frost and Pratt should've penjied in a bit lower?
If you ever get stuck in traffic at the Hollow Flake Ledge, lowering off to TR this beauty and the upper OW would not be the worst way to spend a bit of time.
Since this is a "what if?" topic, how about this:
What if you lowered from Lung Ledge, instead of climbing to the usual penji point, and swung over to meet this lower section of the Hollow Flake Crack? A pitch of 5.8 leads to a belay close to where the Salathe route swings over.
The benefits would be an extra pitch of stellar free climbing up high, and also the ability to lead the upper, fearsome offwidth in a straight line, with as much pro as you can find to stick, without rope drag.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2011 - 11:04am PT
|
You're such a card, Werner...
The only problem with the OP's proposal is that it invokes schelping a big ol peice of specialized gear that you probably won't use elsewhere on the route. Style police be dammed, BTW. It's best not to leave pro in the hf because someone has to follow it, and that will cost time... Since it's after a pendulum,
you do basically have a top-rope, afterall.
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2011 - 11:53am PT
|
Werner's wife is either a saint or a hard woman, probably both.
I led HF with only biners and slings for the belay too (primarily due to Jay's logic), and it was about 100 am. We had started the Salathe at about 700 pm the previous night and topped out after 23 hours of great climbing.
I liked the squeeze chimney on HF because the moon was lighting up all the other walls and it was very beautiful. But I also had time to think up there for a second that I had to finish this thing, that I was at one of those points on a climb where quitting was not an option. I don't know why that came to me there but it was an eery feeling for a second.
|
|
Captain...or Skully
climber
My ready room
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2011 - 02:27pm PT
|
Well, I think she's great on both counts. Go Merry!!!
It's the Hollow Flake(OMG)...YER gonna DIE!
|
|
tahoe523
Trad climber
Station Wagon, USA
|
|
|
May 31, 2011 - 12:42pm PT
|
The Narrows? Check!
The Harding Slot? Check!
Hollow Flake? Check!
Now I just need a "I humped up the trifecta of valley squeeze chimneys and all I got was this lousy t-shirt. And two black knees."
Climbed the HF on Saturday before the "30% chance" hail, rain, snow, thunder storm. I would take an ice cream scooper to my brains right now if I knew I could gouge out the chunk that stubbornly declared to the party that this lead was non-negotiable.
There was a fixed rope which took all the fun out of the supposed pendulum.
But my disappointment was quickly superseded by unbridled AWE.
Like the comments here, everyone at Camp 4 said to ignore all the sensationalized hype.
"Just grab the edge of the flake, do a few pull ups, and bam, you're at the anchor."
"Solo it. You won't fall out."
"It's 5.8. No biggie. Just do it."
Pffffft. Okay. I won't sensationalize, but I thought the damn thing was pretty enduring. Compared to the monster offwidth? Okay, no. But still. I did "a few pull ups", thought, "sweet! this is cake!", turned my head up and saw to my horror that I had, in reality, made very little progress. I had another 40 plus feet to go.
Sure, the monotonous move is no harder that 5.8, but it just keeps going and going. I plugged the useless green #6 at the base.
The big bro #4 was just a hair too big, but I dumped it somewhere down low thinking, "All right, big bro, now you're stuck. Bomber. Don't fail me if I happen to fly past you. Okay?" *Stony silence* Am I the only one that talks to her pro? Actually, don't answer that.
If you're doing the Euro two rope system, also consider bringing a yellow and green alien sized cam. There is a small pocket in the rim that will fit a narrower headed cam at the "crux". I wish I had the gear because I firmly believe it would have been a good placement.
I thought the Harding Slot was a time sink. Boy, was I wrong. While I groveled, huffed and knee slammed up the flake, I think my partners went through an entire pack of cigarettes and had a decent nap or two.
And what felt like hours later, I was finally at the anchor. When my partner came jugging up, I cried, "How was that Big Bro placement? Pretty bomber, eh?"
"It tipped out with my finger."
*Stony silence*
I really thought that Hollow Flake was enduring... but that was until I climbed the Ear. And then the HF didn't seem so bad. The Ear needs an appreciation thread because the hollow flake ain't got nothing on the ear. Now that pitch needs a trip report all on its own.
Happy post-Memorial Day Tuesday! Wearing my 'BITCHES GET STUFF DONE!' shirt. It is, however, incumbent upon me to report that 'STUFF' does not necessarily include putting on pants or getting out of bed.
The stormy, soggy, slumber party on the Salathe came at a price. We were forced to bail. At least we escaped the holiday traffic. Always a silver lining.
We will return when the sun decides to come out and play. I can't believe I have to climb these two pitches again. And just between you and me, I am totally psyched!
Cheers!
|
|
Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
|
|
|
May 31, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
|
For me the hardest ow on the climb was definitely not Hollow Flake, but rather the slippery 15 foot slot up into El Cap Recess. There were some fixed and rather shaky looking bashies on the right wall which I used for aid as sparingly as I could. Without those, this is a pitch which could stop people. Maybe I am overstating this as it was the end of the day and I was tired.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
May 31, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
|
Tahoe523, Thats a classic tale. hahaha.. thanks man.
|
|
Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
|
|
|
May 31, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
|
Tahoe523 - that was a good read!
|
|
Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
|
|
|
May 31, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
|
So, What would Donini bring for pro? Probably a blue BD Cam!!
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
May 31, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
|
tahoe523 - great stuff, thanks for sharing!
It must not be that bad if you are pausing to take photos, right? :-)
Knee pads?
Too bad about all that snow/rain on Sunday. Bummer to bail from that high.
Did you cut loose the fixed line when you went down?
Salathe' with the Catalans >>> Leaning Tower!
|
|
tahoe523
Trad climber
Station Wagon, USA
|
|
|
May 31, 2011 - 04:00pm PT
|
Clint,
Although we have never met, I thought of you during the paintastic grovel-fest.
I thought, "Clint, thank you for the knee pad beta!" (plus, do they ever prove handy during jugging duty!)
And then, "It is only 5.8 and is done routinely." True and true, but bloody hell!
Halfway through, I wish I brought a sandwich to nom on. The gas tank was running near empty. Up higher in the ear, I wish I was in the sun, eating cookies at the cookie cliff. Better yet, I really wished I enjoyed the pastime of sitting on the beach and doing absolutely nothing.
No hands rest allowed for the two hands snappy action photo time. I need proof to show my future grandchildren that grandma had one too many screws loose back in the day.
Cheers!
|
|
Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
|
|
|
May 31, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
|
at the boundaries of sanity,
i thrive.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
It's not aid till you weight the peiece!
Hollow Flake, and all chimbleys, rule!!
Especially the bombays!
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
tahoe523,
It's a "hand me down" tradition. When I led it, I was thinking of my friend Andy who told me it was only 5.8, and always advised kneepads. I got kind of tired on that long upper section, too, so at one point I settled down into the crack for a body jam style rest before finishing. Probably at about the same point where you took that last photo. :-) I was tempted to take one foot out of the crack and stem, but being 70' out from pro made that too sketchy a proposition!
Ex post beta: in that photo in my old post, I think I'm tied into the middle of the 60m lead line, in hopes that I can haul on one side and my partner jugs on the other. But it turned out the lead was slightly more than 30m, so I had to fiddle around to get the haul line up.
|
|
R.B.
Trad climber
Land of the Lahar
|
|
I hate to say it
Your gonna die!
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
Since Nature mentioned it...
This shirt features the Steve Gropp's eerie image of a climber experiencing the joys of the Hollow Flake pitch on the Salathé Wall. The three-color Hollow Flake image is printed on the back and the single-color Yosemite Climbing Association (YCA) logo is on the front left breast.
Hollow Flake Shirt
|
|
Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
tahoe523, fun!
Good thread,
Zander
|
|
ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
|
|
The first time I lead the Hollow Flake I didn't place any gear at all, just psych up and go. The second time I tried to be smart, like the OP, and placed one piece somewhere on the way up, which only served to make it harder. Best just to be ready and do without.
There is use, however, of a big piece in that pitch off El Cap Spire where it becomes some sort of flaring chimney thing, especially if its wet. Think we had one big bro we used there.
|
|
tahoe523
Trad climber
Station Wagon, USA
|
|
Whoa! There's a real Hollow Flake shirt? Neat!
That chimney you spoke of was a gushing waterfall on Memorial Day. We agreed that if we had dry suits (don't judge, I mean, there was a free solo'ing banana spotted that weekend after all), we would have completed the climb. And quite comfortably and seriously, I might add. However, agreed, I think the experience will be more enjoyable when dry and more attempts at free climbing can be had by all.
Drumming our fingers and impatiently waiting for the ultra violet rays of summer...
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
Tahoe 523,
What a fun narration -- and great mid-pitch pics. Thanks much.
John
|
|
Spike Flavis
Trad climber
Truckee California
|
|
I first climbed the Salathe in '87 w/ Chuck Ashbaugh. I led the Hollow flake in shorts and a T-shirt.
A few days later a german dude saw the scabs on the insides of my right elbow and knee and asked
".....Hollow flake?" When I said yes, he pointed at his own scars and said "HOLLOW FLAKE HOLLOW
FLAKE!!!!!" Another story about the hollow flake I like is from my friend Hunter Sibbald. He told me
that after he made the pendulum, his partner Brian Biaga asked "what do you want me to do if you
fall? Hunter replied "call a F%&#in' ambulance" Another time, I think it was also '87 while I belayed
Mimi de Gravelle on the Shield I watched a guy (I think it was Rick Pickett??) casually lay it back, rope
swaying in the wind. If it was 5.9 before big cams, shouldn't it be 5.8 with???
|
|
SGropp
Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
|
|
I still have scars from the Hollow Flake, 34 years later.
|
|
Cain J Waters
Mountain climber
Ithaca, NY
|
|
Tahoe- great tale. The wife and I are looking forward to reading your full TR on the Salathe. Good luck. Looks like you might just get a string of good weather after Monday. Send it! -CW
|
|
Morgan
Trad climber
East Coast
|
|
|
Jun 19, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
|
It seems like El Cap is full of cool features:
"The Black Cat" TT
"Stork Ledge" Mescalito
"Horse's Head" Tribal Rite
Check Clint's photo. It looks like a Velociraptor head, or a Komodo dragon, just below the purple type that says: "long upper section".
|
|
Oleg Fecanin
Trad climber
Frisco
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2011 - 11:46am PT
|
I did Salathe last month and let me tell you couple of things about it:
As Peter Haan said above, HF is only one of the challenges on Salathe Wall. Not talking about other stuff, you want to be especially good at chimneys and offwidths. I would try some chimneys and offwidths on smaller walls in the Valley before I would start on Salathe. Did I do that? Did I climb some other chimneys before Salathe? Of course, not. So, why I am recommending it? Because I have been there and with that experience I would do it now. I am from Europe originally and I am climbing for some 30 years, so I have climbed some crags already, but I have found that Yosemite offwidths are totally different animals than anything else you can find on the face climbing, and also the Yosemite granite is totally different than limestone or other rocks, even different then granite elsewhere. Why I am saying this? Because if you regularly climb 5.11 on limestone crags, that does not guarantee your success on climbing 5.7 - 5.9 (old) offwidths or chimneys in Yosemite Valley. It is just different. Even 5.10c finger crack or 5.10d slab on “Freeblast” is easier for “face climbers”, than 5.7 chimney above the Hollow Flake Ledge without protection (or with few pieces).
So Skywalker, get in the shape, climb some offwidths in Yosemite, and then you can do it. Well, you can even protect it. I would have not climbed it without protection, no matter what. I had one #6 camalot, one #3 Big-Bro and two #4 Big-Bros.
This is how I did it:
I did pendulum on our hauling rope (yes there is a fix rope for pendulum, but what the heck). I have lowered down and get into the HF crack. Then I started chimney-ing for a while until the chimney was too narrow. I protected it with camalot #6 deep inside in the crack on our climbing rope. There was no drag on the rope since it went straight to my friend at the belay. (BTW: there is no bolt on this belay – actually was, but now it is broken). Then I have climbed offwidth for couple of meters and I have truly walked #6 for couple of moves, but offwidth was so difficult that I went out and climbed it as layback instead leaving #6 there. I have climbed outside up to the first “little horn” and placed Big-bro #3 as high as I could. Then I’ve climbed offwidth to the second little horn (no layback here) and placed #4 Big-Bro. Again I have climbed couple of meters and now I’ve realized that I’ve used 3 of my 4 pieces on 35 feet and I was left with only one Big-Bro#4 for remaining 10 miles. So, I screwed the Big-Bro as high as I could and stared up with combination of chimney-offwidth-open corner technique. What is that? Well, something like “godjustkeepmeontherock” style. To keep my pans dry, I have unscrewed Big-Bro and moved it higher, and from this point I was able to “climb” to the top.
Was it hard? Hell, yes. Could I climb it again? Yes, and probably little bit calmer and without moving my chickenshit piece. Can you retreat from HF? I can’t imagine how. Maybe you can, but to me it looked like one way street and that what’s doing HF so intimidating. You are there with few pieces of protection (or non) and you can see this awfully long wide crack above you, so you really want to be amps up for that.
So, again like Peter Haan said, be in pretty damn good shape and I would say, be in pretty damn good mental shape as well. He (Peter) probably has not thought about mentioning that mental shape since he is in a different league than we are (Skywalker and me) and as everybody knows he did first solo on Salathe, back in seventies. I guess he is still climbing pretty damn excellent.
And tahoe523 is right about the Ear. Even though I have not climbed but cleaned the Ear pitch, from jumars it just looked much worse than HF.
|
|
scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2011 - 11:51am PT
|
BRAVO!!!
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
|
Oleg,
Nice shot. Brings back, uh, fond memories! I remember liebacking with no pro for some ways, then desperately slammin' myself inside the fissure, realizing my exposed position. The only thing I was able to get for protection was a #10 or 11 Hexentric stacked with a Tube Chock...and that was it for a long way. Props to Peter for goin' it alone on that!
 ec
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Jul 22, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
|
Geez...you top rope the first part and you can get your leg in- what's the big deal?
|
|
| Messages 1 - 44 of total 44 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!