Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 52 of total 52 in this topic |
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 9, 2011 - 02:58pm PT
|
More properly called .303 British, it was developed in 1887 for the Lee-Metford Mk1 rifle (James Paris Lee was actually an American), and was adopted by the British Commonwealth as their military cartridge lasting an astounding 69 years (through both world wars!) until replaced by the .308 (AKA 7.62mm Nato).
Originally loaded with 70 grains of blackpowder the load was converted to cordite in 1892 significantly increasing muzzle energy.
When reports came back in the 1890s that the original fully jacketed 215 grain round nosed bullet was sometimes ineffective on restless natives Captain Bertie Clay set about redesigning the projectile.
Using only a partially jacketed round exposing the lead core at the tip had satisfying results as far greater expansion resulted on impact.
This has led to much confusion and mythology for a strange reason.
You see, Captain Clay was stationed at the arsenal in Dum Dum, India, and that is where the term "dumdum bullet" comes from (not scoring the business end of the projectile.)
The first dumdums were .303
Anyway, Metford's contribution to the rifle design, rounded land rifling, was rendered moot by cordite, and Lee continued to refine his design in dozens of significant ways at the Royal Small Arms factory in Enfield.
Probably the most important model originated in 1903 with 5" of barrel as well as the cleaning rod removed.
The short magazine Lee-Enfield Mk1, known by the acronym "Smelly", is considered to be one of the ten best rifles ever made.
It is so robust that many of the tens of millions manufactured have been rechambered to more powerful rounds than the .303
Anybody know which climber spent the better part of two years rechambering Smellies before going on to put up routes on the Captain?
I'm sure BDC can post some .303 photos,..
|
|
Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
|
Doh! Thought this was about Denver. :)
|
|
Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
|
|
Cool, I didn't know that little tidbit about the history of the .303 round.
The Lee-Enfield was certainly one of the best rifles ever made. It holds up well against other great rifles of the time like the Mosin-Nagant (an extremely reliable rifle) and my personal favorite, the Yankee M1 Grand.
The .303 is a better round than the 7.62 IMO. When the Brits began using the more powerful and heavy round they noted that it tended to "pass on through" the target rather than expand and tumble like the .303. The .308 FAL which replaced the Enfield line is one of my favorite rifles ever made. However the 7.62mm round has more limitations than positives on the battlefield which is why the Brits alongside a growing number of countries have switched to the more effective and accurate 5.56 Nato or .223mm round in their current infantry rifle, the SA80 or L85A2 as the Brits like to call it.
I own a Mk 1 "jungle carbine". Great rifle.
|
|
Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
|
|
Check out the 303 soliloquy in Breaker Morant. Classic.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2011 - 04:40pm PT
|
Yeah, I was going to bring that up about Rule .303 in BM (great film).
EDIT
Another great line from Breaker Morant; Bryon Brown regarding his character's adulterous hijinks, "Nobody misses a slice off a cut loaf."
My FAL is a Springfield. Anybody know who has metric mags for sale?
Interesting FAL factoid.
During the Falklands spat both sides carried the FAL, but the Argentines had select fire.
The Brits traded their rifles for the select fire ones they could capture.
The irony is that the FAL kicks like a mule and is even more inaccurate in full auto than say an M14, which is to say you are gonna put a lot of "holes in the sky".
Better off in semi-auto, the ammo lasts longer.
But back to .303
Isn't that what shot down the Red Baron?
|
|
wildone
climber
Troy, MT
|
|
That cordite sure has a distinctive smell.
This year, I'll be picking up a FN AR in 7.62, heavy 20 inch barrel. Uses metric mags. You having a hard time finding those mags Ron?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
|
J&G usually have them by the crate.
Fresh out.
It is weird, despite the ammo scare people kept buying guns and mags.
Now they just can't afford to load them anymore.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
I think I've posted this before, but for those who haven't seen it:
and
For those unfamiliar with what at one time were called "Light Machine Guns," that denotes a machine gun capable of being carried and served by just a gunner as opposed to a crew-served automatic weapon requiring tripod, ammo carrier, and an assistant gunner. Uniformly they were issued in the same caliber as the standard infantry rifle. The U.S. Army and Marine Corps uniformly used the famous BAR, or Browning Automatic Rifle in this role.
Currently they are referred to as a "SAW," or Squad Automatic Weapon.
The BREN, in cal.303 British served through W.W. II, Korea, and into the Falklands. The weapon was so well liked by the troops that they practically had to be pried from their hands. After owning 2 BRENs I can understand why; I also owned one manufacturesd by John Inglis, Co. in Canada chambered in 8 mm Mauser that was devoid of any amrkings other than the caliber, 7.92 M. This models, and lfewer than 5000 were ever manufactured, were supplied to Tito's Partisans in Jugoslavia.
The BREN was not a British designed weapon, and had it's origin in the Czechoslovakian VZ-26 designed by Vaklav Holek for the Czech government. I aslo have owned 3 VZ-26s over the years, and the reputation of the firearm for reliability and accuracy caused an armament commission in Britain to solicit a model made in .303 British; this was accomplished and the pilot model designated vz-33. The British government signed a contract and license agreement and did some simplification for their methods of manufacture, and the final design became the BREN. BR from the Brno arsenal, and the EN from Enfield lock in Britain.
I can unequivocally state that of all the fine automatic rifles/light machine guns that I have either owned or fired, the .303 BREN leads the pack by a huge margin. The absolute worst? The U.S. M-60!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2011 - 05:03pm PT
|
The round or rifle, Bruce?
The round is .303 British
Companies tagging their names onto proprietary calibers is more of a American practice, but does occur overseas.
Nobody has the El Cap pioneer Smelly converter?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
|
Rodger,.... isn't there something missing??????????????
Fits into the top,... kind of banana shaped (or better for aircraft, pan head)???????
Another thing about the Bren is that it fires from an open bolt, so there is far less danger of it cooking off rounds when it gets hot.
Rodger, have you heard about the Australians using the striker springs from their #36 grenades to add onto the return guide rod to significantly increase the rate of fire?
I've had some M60 trigger time. Reminds me of driving a Chevy.
The 249 is an improvement, but I hear has jamming problems when you are crawling around in the sand.
Anyway, back to those Czechs, boy they must be an ornery bunch because they make some badass guns, some of my favorites.
Lets not forget that Maxim made the machine gun after a chance encounter with a friend who said to him that if he wanted to make money he just needed to invent something that would allow these damned europeans to kill each other faster.
Hotchkiss was another American (the son of a famed General) who moved to europe to design guns.
And, of course, John M. Browning made 60 odd trips to Belgium.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
Ron-
I didn't take any photos with the "30 round" magazines in place. Nominally they are really good for 27-28 rounds if jamming is to be avoided. There is also a kit adapting the BREN to take special 100 round drum magazines similar to the Lewis gun. That was the so-called antiaircraft setup.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
Just let's not talk about the notorious Ross Rifle, which Canadian troops had forced on them in World War I. They did everything they could to pick up Lee Enfields instead. The Ross simply wasn't field reliable, in what were rather challenging conditions. A robust and reliable weapon, whether for combat or climbing, is often preferable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_rifle
|
|
Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
|
|
Ditto for Czech made firearms.
I've owned a Brno 30-06 since I was fifteen.
Plain looking, smooth as silk and deadly accurate.
Wouldn't trade it for the shiniest alternative.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
|
My Smelly ran $79 in the late '90s.
Sometime I'll post a photo of my CZ 9mm with 22 round clip, Surefire light, tactical ram, and 5" bayonet!
(First I gotta figure out how to attach the Swiss Army knife)
My CZ 556 with french set trigger actually makes a better tannerite detonator than my H bar Rem 700 with laminated bench stock in .22-250
My latest CZ has the exact same lines and chambering (.308) as my ancient Mauser, but that french trigger is a tad better than the Mauser, which has so much travel the shooter needs a running start.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
|
Negative on Chuck Pratt.
He is younger than donini but doesn't climb as much.
(yeah I know, that doesn't rule out very many)
|
|
gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
|
|
For ammo and military gun parts, check this site out
http://www.auctionarms.com
I have a Mk3, love it. I took it down to parade rest, sanded and refinished the wood, then cleaned and reblued the metal. Its still battlefield stock, but looks real nice. Deadly accurate too.
Im partial to my 8mm (7.92) mauser however. Its just a real accurate cannon.
|
|
edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
|
|
Donini the Smelly man?
|
|
Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
|
|
That BREN is pretty sweet. Weren't they favored for not only their reliability and smooth operation, but for the fact that they had a slow rate of fire, making it one of the most accurate light machine guns ever produced? I sure would jump at the chance for some trigger time behind that thing.
Interesting note about British .303 ammunition. Several forms and upgrades took place throughout the 70 years that this round saw service. The early "hollow point" versions (Mark 3,4 and 5) were prohibited by the Hague convention of 1899. This lead to the Mark 6 which was a rounded nose version similar to the older Mark 2 but with a much thinner copper casing. The idea being that the thinner jacketed round would flatten and expand more easily mimicking the actions of a hollow point bullet.
That wasn't the case so what they came up with was the Mark 7. This version utilized a pointed bullet design as well as a lighter grain bullet giving it a much higher velocity. The big change in design wasn't this pointed (spitzer) round or the lighter grain. The big change was that 1/3 of the bullet was replaced by softer materials like Aluminum and eventually wood pulp. The lighter nose of the bullet makes the round bottom heavy causing it to tumble and roll when hitting a target rather than just passing through. This was a much more devastating round that the British used up until the .303 was replaced by the 7.62 in the late 60's.
To show the gentlemanly conduct of the British, they actually required the pulp used in the front 1/3rd of the bullet to be sterilized in production to help prevent infection of the wound. How civil of them Brits eh!
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
The BREN was actually prized more for the ease with which the barrels could be changed; about 2 seconds for an experienced gunner. The cyclic rate is higher than the U.S. Browning 1919 A4 (550 RPM vs 450 RPM). The speed king from these older MGs was the German MG42 at ~1100-1200 RPM. There were usually 2 bullets in the barrel at the same time!
However the accuracy of the BREN is legendary; a complete magazine into a bushel basket size target at 900 yards.
A dealer-friend of mine has an rare and unusual BREN manufactured in Taiwan: it's one of a handful manufactured in .30-06!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2011 - 09:02pm PT
|
Read again edejom.
Salamanizer thats like wiping with a swab of alcohol in the prisons that perform lethal injections.
gonamok, I'm not gonna pay $50 for a clip.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
One other feature about the BREN: THEY NEVER BREAK!
The Czech vz 26 (BREN forerunner) had a specification for the steel that was fantastic; the steel was made by the Skoda works and was required to show no appreciable wear of the receiver until at least 500,000 rounds had been fired.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2011 - 09:16pm PT
|
Wish that guy hadn't bought it.
You should use it for your avatar photo, Rodger.
I hope its not windy tomorrow. Its good and wet and I have a 10 gallon propane tank, a road flare, and a new Sharps .45-70 (and a video camera).
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2011 - 09:35pm PT
|
OK, I'll narrow it down.
He put up more than two.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2011 - 09:48pm PT
|
Read again. I got a Sharps Quigley.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
Woody had a .303 he was quite proud of. He thought he had a jungle carbine, was quite sure it was genuine, but had a tinge of doubt.
I volunteered to run it down for him and he provided the SN#.
He was a bit disappointed when I confirmed that it was a post war conversion by an importer.
Genuine Jungle Carbines are incredibly rare. There were only a few thousand (if that many) made. Converting SMLE's to carbine status by chopping them down was a growth industry in the 50's and 60's.
Back in the 70's one of my buddies I'd grown up with had a .303 he'd been given by an older brother. He also had a large supply of WWII vintage ammo.
We'd fire it and about every half dozen, dozen rounds or so there would be a hang fire of a half second or so, or a misfire, requiring the manual pin re-cock and the mandatory 30 count if it didn't go off on the second strike. Some of the rounds just didn't have the correct report and recoil as well, hitting the dirt well in front of the target.
Now another buddy, John wanted to borrow it to go Boar hunting up at Ft. Hunter Ligget. We both told him to make sure he purchased some new factory ammo.
He ignored us.
On his boar hunt he managed to hit one, but with one of those squib rounds that just really pissed off the pig.
The next round was a hang fire.
To add insult to injury they got busted while still up in the oak tree they'd taken refuge in by the MP's
Turned out they didn't have the correct permits.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2011 - 10:30pm PT
|
Some of the boar hunts in Nevada have no trees to hide in.
Can you believe those euros that hunt boars with spears?
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
I hope its not windy tomorrow. Its good and wet and I have a 10 gallon propane tank, a road flare, and a new Sharps .45-70 (and a video camera).
This should be good.
|
|
FGD135
Social climber
Colorado
|
|
Brits loved those Bren guns so much they made a special tracked vehicle to carry it, a workhorse for them in WW2.
Bren guns were kept in store for a very long time, and most of them were eventually converted into the L4A1 version, L4A2 etc., firing 7.62x51 NATO, recognizable by their straight magazines, instead of the curved .303SA mags.
Never have had a chance to shoot either version,dang it, but I have fired a .303 Lewis gun.
Please post up some video of that Sharps in action!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2011 - 11:48pm PT
|
OK, additional clue;
more than three routes.
What? Nobody can even guess?
|
|
FGD135
Social climber
Colorado
|
|
I dunno, must be a Canuck or English climber? Who else is gonna be rechambering .303s?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2011 - 12:02am PT
|
FGD,
WRONG!
and did you know that The Seven Pillars Of Wisdom was a rewrite (in barely 3 months) after the original 500,000 word manuscript was purloined?
Hint; American
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2011 - 12:05am PT
|
OK, so yer narrowing it down.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2011 - 12:23am PT
|
LOL
No.
|
|
Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
|
|
|
Apr 10, 2011 - 12:49am PT
|
Brits loved those Bren guns so much they made a special tracked vehicle to carry it, a workhorse for them in WW2.
Was watching the tube (yes I still have a tube TV) the other day and saw that the Brits also adopted the Willies JEEP into service modifying it to carry five, yes five BREN MG's and an optional center mount to fix a MA Deuce too. The Royal Marines would bugger around German air strips and let loose on the stationed planes with incendiary rounds.
What a hell of a ride that would have been!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2011 - 01:31am PT
|
Probably doesn't equal the average low-rider.
Finally tha Dood gets it ( my next clue was that his nickname rhymes with Tha Turd).
|
|
Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
|
|
|
Apr 10, 2011 - 01:41am PT
|
I thought somebody already guessed Bridwell?
|
|
T Moses
Big Wall climber
Paso Robles
|
|
|
Apr 10, 2011 - 02:08am PT
|
Euros hunting boar with spears? Psshaw. Hawaiians do it with knives at night. Drop out of the trees from above as a team. Heard tell from one of them directly. They had one among the group that got gored and had to go to the hospital to get stitched up. They had a hell of a time explaining that.
I'd love to see video of that maniacal Willies beast that the brits cooked up. Must have been hell on wheels.
Sorry for the thread drift. At least it's not the 5.56 vs 7.62x39 vs 7.62x51 eternal debate. That goes on like the "wrong repulicans" thread.
|
|
FGD135
Social climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
|
Rifle is engraved "Part of our booty in the battle for the Dardanelles" by the Turks, given to Feisal by Enver Pasha, then to Lawrence. Has five notches carved into it by Lawrence, his initials, and the date 4.12.16 .
Lawrence gave it to King George V.
This is the rifle carried by Lawrence in "Seven Pillars of Wisdom".
Not a Bren, but cool
So, Bridwell was in who's employ when he was rechambering .303s?
|
|
Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
|
Guns and rifles suck. Unless you are Grizzly Adams.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2011 - 12:36am PT
|
But back to .303
Isn't that what shot down the Red Baron?
No. It was Sgt. Cedric Bassett Popkin that brought down the Red Knight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedric_Popkin
|
|
Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2011 - 12:43am PT
|
TGT, Woody took me out to the firing range and I got to fire his .303, wow it did have quite the kick! fun though.
|
|
gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2011 - 02:59am PT
|
Guns and rifles suck. Unless you are Grizzly Adams
or a total sissy
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2011 - 09:06am PT
|
Gary,
if you were diligent enough to read your own link you would see that it was indeed a .303 that killed Manfred von Richthofen.
chinchin & gonamuk,
just about anything sucks if you don't know jack about what to do with it.
|
|
guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2011 - 12:19pm PT
|
Speaking of the Red Baron!
"Last Man Standing" by Jeff Sharra is an excellent historical fiction account of WW1.
Omaka Air Museum near Blenheim New Zealand. Peter Jackson was involved with the superb museum located at the northern part of the South Island.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
|
Wow! A Red Baron diarama.
But,... but,... where's Snoopy?
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2011 - 06:06am PT
Gary,
if you were diligent enough to read your own link you would see that it was indeed a .303 that killed Manfred von Richthofen.
Ron,
You of all people should know that guns don't kill people. People kill people.
I read about Popkin in the 8th grade in a very interesting book about Richtofen and his last day.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
|
Gary,
you of all people should know I was referring to the calibre of the round that proved effective in killing him.
PS the History Channel did a show on this incident.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2011 - 08:31pm PT
|
The book is Who Killed the Red Baron by P.J. Carisella and James W. Ryan. If you can find a copy, Ron, I think you'd like it. I was fascinated by it when I was 12. At that age who could resist the post-mortem photographs.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
|
MarkIV was my first center fire rifle. Heavy son of a gun for a 12 year old. I had a Lee loader reloading kit. Just a hand held die that you whacked the cases into with a mallet. Red plastic scoop for a powder measure. Pretty silly set up but it kind of worked. Problem was that the head spaceing on most (definatly on mine) of the Enfields was so generous that the cases tended to split after 3 or 4 reloads. I bought a wooden case of ammo stamped 1953 in about 1983 They hang fired so bad I never even shot up the whole case. Too spooky. Ended up giveing that rifle to my nephue a few years ago.
|
|
marv
Mountain climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2011 - 08:53pm PT
|
are knockoff AK-47's in production these days?
|
|
gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
|
|
|
Apr 18, 2011 - 02:09am PT
|
gasp...I think Ive been disparaged! Ronald, (love that name, happens to be mine too) I wasnt saying anything sucks (tho plenty does), I was calling the guy who said guns suck a sissy. I thot youd be proud of me.. .(said wif a little tear in my eye)
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2011 - 12:57am PT
|
Today is the anniversary of a .303 ending the reign of the Red Baron, April 21, 1918.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 52 of total 52 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!