Discussion Topic |
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:07am PT
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Got a picture of the bolt?
Probably not, most modern cameras won't function in such balmy weather...not unless you've managed to keep the battery warm!
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:50am PT
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Actually I didn't take any pictures today. Although my camera works great in cold temps! :) They made the Canon 7d to withstand colder temperatures and it works!
I will take a picture of my growing old bolt collection. I'm up to about 85 now since a few months ago.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Jan 31, 2011 - 09:50am PT
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Why don't you chop the retro bolts YOU put in at Crack In The Woods? You know the bolts YOU knowingly added to Hocus Pocus and Splat Button?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:36pm PT
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There was a thread on Supertopo a while back (maybe a year?) that went on for some time on this issue. I thought that the modified piton was first, then just cranking on it with a long wrench and snapping it off was next.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:42pm PT
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As mentioned above- use a cordless grinder with a cutting wheel. Be careful to not touch the rock.
A cordless dremmel with a cutting wheel works well too if you only need to cut one or two studs. And it's lighter and easier to avoid touching the rock.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jan 31, 2011 - 02:48pm PT
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I thought I read about a piton tuning fork thing.
Ask Clint.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jan 31, 2011 - 04:03pm PT
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It depends on the type of bolt, but you can either use a hacksaw blade (bend it to get as close to the rock as possible) and saw through the bolt. You only need to cut about 1/3 of the way through then you can knock it off with a hammer. Or you can use a cold chisel and chop it off, but be careful not to do too much damage to the rock as that will leave a very ugly scar.
BTW, if it s a wedge bolt, after the stud is chopped off use the appropriate sized metal rod (3/8" for 3/8" bolt)and try to pound the stud back into the hole before patching. This also works for other types of bolts as well.
Bruce
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Jan 31, 2011 - 09:44pm PT
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Holy Moly John Kelley, I haven't heard from you in a while. After all this time all you can talk about is 2 routes on the highway less then 40ft long and a total of 5 bolts. Here I thought I was going to get a hug or something...
As far as those routes go I think I'm still looking for the first ascentionist. Although I may have talked to him already but he was a bit hazy on it as those routes are 20 years old or so. Gotta know how to cut bolts right before you go chopping even your own.
Thankfully ive only had about 4 or 5 problem bolts out of 80+ so thats pretty good. Some have snapped without effort and most others have come out. I like the idea of a drill with a cutting wheel. Is there an easy way to make SDS to regular or is there a cutting wheel that will actually fit the SDS bit?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Knowingly retro bolting 20 year old routes if f*#king weak. Why would you add bolts to it?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Wedge bolts 3/8th - 1/2" - Use a large breaker bar, hacksaw, or cold chissle. Then use an appropriate size punch to seat the stud, then patch the hole.
3/8 split shaft compression bolts, beat them back and forth gently until you can pull them out with a fulcrum and plyers. They pull easier if you can rotate the bolt during the beating.
1/4" buttonheads/threaded use a tuning fork, or a modified wonderbar.
Star Drives... suck! I use a crowbar with a 5/8ths slot cut for the lead sheath, then use it like a standard crowbar and lever the nail out.
5/8ths button heads, A tuning for that has been worked over and has it's tangs widened is perfect for those buggers. Tork is a master at removing these devils.
I treat Replacement like a job. I get all kinds of tools together, organize the kit, bring the ladders, chest harness etc...
I save and label all of the bolts I replace, for history ya dig!
I can tell you the worst thing ever is to shlep your entire kit up to a rebolt, start rapping and find out you have the wrong tool for the job.
Bring everything you might need for every bolt you may encounter.
Nice to hear you are providing a selfless service to the community Prez.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Thanks mucci, Ive replaced a lot so far and have been keeping them all on a piece of rope. Its quite the collection so far! I'll have to post a picture sometime. Thanks for the information, I didn't realize the star drives were a different size, no wonder they were such a pain!
John it was a 20 year old toprope, everyone who I have talked to that climbed during that time said the same thing "I might have put it up, who cares? Go ahead and bolt it." I think your anger here stems from something else and supertopo is no place to fight.....oh wait...
:)
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Yea locker I am seeing that. Although Ive only bolted those two after the fact you really just never get to hear the end of it. I have also had several people tell me what an enjoyable lead it is. They had never climbed it as a TR before but now that it is a lead climb it actually gets lots of traffic. I think in the end I will leave those bolts assuming Ive talked with the first ascentionist and they believe it to be good. The climb on the left I'll probably end up pulling two bolts from.
The climbs have had a much more positive reception then negative. Ive heard two or 3 comments against and about 10 are for it.
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ec
climber
ca
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For small diameter bolts like .25" that break off in the hole, drill a hole right along side (a power drill is the only way, however) and use a punch to knock it over and pluck it out. Then drill a .5" diameter hole through both holes and place a new .5" diameter bolt.
 ec
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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My question Prez is why the hell are your replacing bolts in 23 degree weather on that shite by the Seward Highway and not coming down here to play. I'll be in RR for a week beginning Thursday.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Two of them were already lead climbs. You added bolts to them because they were too runout for you.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Oh donini thats just a mean thing to say! If I had the funds I'd be joining you there in a heartbeat. I have already been climbing when I go out bolting and my fingers are getting used to it.
I was hoping on the possibility of coming down that way in March or so.
John: well thats not true now is it. Ive only added to two, one was a 5.10rx and the other was a TR.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I've heard that there's a route on the south side of Half Dome, that maybe you could practice on. It has lots of bolts. Coz can give you the details.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Ive heard about that route. I do have to say I wouldn't bolt that, especially rap bolt it.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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What about cranking on a large socket until the bolt breaks then punch in the stud and fill the hole as best you can.
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gonamok
climber
sez me
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Theres absolutely no reason to epoxy bolts. A properly placed 3/8" x 3" stainless steel expansion sleeve bolt will resist 2000 lbs of pull out force, with shear strength of 4000 lbs or more. Epoxy traps moisture and accellerates corrosion of the bolt. Looks like hell too.
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jstan
climber
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You can get a backpackable oxy-acetylene torch kit at Home Depot for about $300. With it you can melt the steel bolts right out of their holes. Better wear goggles though. Molten steel comes back at you like gangbusters. Then fill and hide the hole, as per usual.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Gonamuck I agree with you especially here in AK. All the bolts I have found with glue come out super easy due to the rust factor. I think he meant it as a patching method though.
And mike the problem with cranking on them is sometimes they just turn in the hole. I have had that happen with a few of them.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 11, 2011 - 11:18pm PT
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Are these ASCA bolts? I saw on the ASCA website that you are doing some rebolting for them and then I saw that they don't add bolts to climbs?
There's a total of 13 new protection bolts at the crag now, not counting anchors. Only two are replacements. The other 11 are retro bolts that have been added to existing climbs.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Feb 11, 2011 - 11:43pm PT
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jstan... thanks for the tip, got some Petzil bolts at Courtwright Res. that have so far resisted all attempts.
Question for you. Is the stone burnt after molten steel comes out of the hole?
And J. Kelley... I agree ... adding bolts during "Bolt Replacement, saftey bla bla bla" really sucks.
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Disaster Master
Social climber
Born in So-Cal, left my soul in far Nor-Cal.
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Feb 12, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
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Have you described the bolt in question? Is it a power bolt / hex head? Threaded stud with stuck nut? Glue in?
If I had the facts I could make you a good plan. But different types of bolts are better chopped with different techniques...
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 18, 2011 - 09:03pm PT
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Kelsey don't worry, Hocus Pocus and Splat Button got the axe. No you can't have the hangers back.
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Feb 18, 2011 - 09:48pm PT
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nice work john
almost broke out my crowbar and touched up on my bolt removel skilz
figured it wasn't worth it for such a chosspile though
cant believe you tacos are giving him advice on how to chop bolts when he is known as a retrobolter who feels that if he can't find the fa on facebook then noone really cares right
shame on you guys
just goes to show how easy it is to hide on the www
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Disaster Master
Social climber
Born in So-Cal, left my soul in far Nor-Cal.
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Feb 19, 2011 - 08:52am PT
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shame on you guys
Shame on us?!
Just answering a question. Not clairvoyant to know or care who he is. Yell at him, not others.
just goes to show how easy it is to hide on the www Uh, sure is.."Cavemonkey". Why did your folks name you that? ;)
-Paul Humphrey
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Feb 19, 2011 - 10:01am PT
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last time i made popcorn the show disappeared. i was told that there were threats to sue. some of these dirtbags must have deep pockets.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 19, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
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Shame on the ASCA for giving him the Bolts!
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jstan
climber
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Feb 19, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
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Guyman:
If you have a question as to the rock being affected apply the torch to similat rock somewhere. Any carbon deposited can be burned off in excess oxygen. But keep the tips of the blue cone off the rock as that is where temperature is a maximum.
Keep your face out of the line of fire. The molten steel will come flying out.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 19, 2011 - 10:40pm PT
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johnkelley I'd like to think you left in at least the middle bolt on Splat Button since that bolt was already there, for the last 20 years as you so proudly announce. If not then I'd suggest you go put it back.
All the other routes that have been rebolted on the highway in the last 3 months at least from me have no new bolts added. They are all replacements only. Do not go cutting this bolts as you have no reason and will only be making it more dangerous for everyone. Oh and I didn't rebolt those other routes that you claim I did so give it a freaking rest. Look at the hangers you stole, are they stamped? I doubt it. That is because I bought them myself from AMH.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 19, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
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Kelsey- you telling me what to do only pisses me off. Stop trying to rewrite history and stop retrobolting. As far as rewriting history goes, things like Thin as Ice and Local Motion had far less bolts on them when I got here then they do now. However your cheese dick book fails to mention that! So maybe it's you that needs to give it a break? BTW I'm just getting warmed up.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 02:43am PT
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Rewrite history? Where are you from? I'd bet its not Alaska. Its not my job to note every single change in each route from how long ago it was, many routes have changed here. It has been the nature of the area. Your "history" is actually mistaken. Why don't you try talking to the people who put up these routes instead of just assuming you know exactly what they would want or what they even put up.
I have put up 5 new bolts ever on an existing route. You have already created your own storm of garbage and apparently you chopped them. Yes we had our arguments about it and I've talked about the routes with many, many people. Regardless of the fact that many more people were thankful for them then the rare few who were upset I still decided that I wouldn't do it any more. That it was a step back in bolting ethics here and that I was wrong to do so. I also have been tracking down the first ascentionist which is hard because those who put up the routes in that time just don't seem to really care whats happened to it. I was already gearing to chop the bolts myself because I was unable to find the person who put it up and I wanted to clean up after my own errors.
You should put the bolt back in Splat Button not because I told you to but because if you do not you are cutting a pre-existing route and that makes you no better than everything you claim me to be. Its your call.
Still I would urge you not to pull the other bolts which I have placed on the highway. One reason is that you have shown you have no idea what I have done or what routes I have replaced. You will essentially be pulling bolts that could have been put up by someone who did the first ascent, maybe you should do your research before blaring your ego.
My apologies to the Taco as more drama is probably not needed on this board.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 02:59am PT
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Maybe YOU Should go look at Splat Button for yourself. I did leave the original placement. Like I said I'm just warming up boy.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 03:04am PT
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I had no problem finding the FA party. Maybe they like me more then you? You have been kinda a bitch.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Feb 20, 2011 - 03:13am PT
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When I think of Alaska, bolt wars are usually not the first thing to come to mind.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 03:15am PT
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BTW- I used a phone book
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 03:20am PT
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BS. You just picked up a phone book and called the Unknown first ascent hotline?
What is your problem with me anyway? Why lie to try and make your point? Seriously I mean you've been a pain for so long I figure most people at least don't like to hold onto anger that long. You have pissed off almost every climbing partner you have here.
ontheedge I wouldn't have thought so either.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Feb 20, 2011 - 03:28am PT
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Why don't you guys meet up and talk about it over a climb or replacement.
Probably have more in common than remembering bolt counts.
Both of you:
climb when it is 23degrees out.
live in AK
know how to chop bolts.
are members on the taco.
ice fish
ride snowmobiles
beat seals
eat shellfish
?
Give us a TR when your done.
Edit: Unknown first ascent hotline
BWhaahahHAHAHAH!!! New Route Name, you guys are all set up!!!!
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 03:30am PT
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mucci I like your style. Although I don't beat any seals, icefish or what was the last one again?... :)
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 03:32am PT
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Sorry, a half dozen grade IV/VI FA's a year is all I can do. You are lost and I'm sorry for you.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 03:35am PT
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John there really comes a point when it doesn't matter what you put up. I don't care how hard you climb. If you are sorry for me you should be, I have to put up with you stalking me.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 03:47am PT
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I guess you pissed me off? Stop retrobolting and I'll disappear again but I guess I'll have to put up with you making a buck off of what I do in my free time?
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 03:50am PT
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You really haven't been listening have you? 5 bolts over 7 months ago. None since, already decided not to. Not because of you but won't be doing any more regardless. Get it?
Don't know why I pissed you off since you are so busy putting up first ascents on big unnamed peaks and what not. Can't believe you let the Seward Highway get you so upset.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 04:06am PT
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I'm a Traditionalist dummy.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 04:13am PT
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BS on that to, it doesn't mean you have to suck as a person.
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wildone
climber
Troy, MT
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Feb 20, 2011 - 04:17am PT
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Just for the record, if we're talking about the rock on the seward highway, for those of you who haven't seen it, it's a scruffy little band of choss. Really long.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 04:22am PT
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Yes we are talking about the rock on the Seward Highway which makes this about the most ridiculous and overtalked conversation possible!
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 04:59am PT
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No ASCA bolts have been used for anything but replacing older bolts. I want to make very sure that you understand that. You are trying to stop me from replacing bolts when nobody else is for no other reason then you are pissed off for some reason. I hope you are prepared to step up and replace them yourself if you continue this attack.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 05:10am PT
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Your right it is just lttle scruffy bands of choss. One would think that in a state where 99 plus % of peaks are virgin that one would find something better to do then add retrobolts to 20 year old climbs and then bitch like a little kid when they get the axe. Like I said he's lost.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 05:17am PT
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I'm pissed because of your retrobolting, nothing else. I'm also pissed at the ASCA for giving you bolts. I know it's hard for you to stomach but that is really the beginning and ending of it.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
The Seas of Stone.
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Feb 20, 2011 - 08:11am PT
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Evil Prez? Sinister intent? Part one of your evil plan of World Domination?
Bwha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-ha-Ha!!!!!!
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Scott Thelen
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Feb 20, 2011 - 12:17pm PT
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Your fighting over sh#t rock and I love it.
Keep it coming.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
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You have been an jerk to me for the last 3 or 4 years. Remember the multiple times I've banned you and your aliases from alaska mountain forum? So what's the real problem here? You are wrong about me and will eat your words. I don't think people here are stupid and the longer you post the more they will see you for what you are as most other places already do.
So what is your real problem with me. Let's get this over with as I am tired of dealing with you.
Scott he is trying to make it so I can no longer get ASCA replacements. I have replaced around 80 bad bolts here since October. To me that's possibly saving someones life. It's something I take pride in and hate to have it smeared.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 03:26pm PT
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You shouldn't get any bolts from the ASCA. Retrobolting is in contradiction to their mission statement. Shame on the for giving you anything.
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bigdamnjohnson
climber
palmer, alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
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If you were interested in saving somebodys life, then you should probably encourage people NOT to climb on those shitty ass road cuts. The only thing you are doing by replacing bolts on the seward highway is wasting time and resources that should be directed elsewhere. You haven’t been climbing around here long enough to see it, but believe it or not the highway is falling down, as evidenced by multiple pieces of “rock” with bolts still in, being cleaned off the side of the road by heavy equipment. New bolts doesn’t change the rock quality or the vicious freeze thaw cycles we experience here.
If you were interested in “saving someones life” then you start by telling people not to climb on the highway. If you really want to replace some bolts, howabout the rusty ¼ in a watercourse that protects a 30ft 5.11 runout to the anchor on “catch the wave” in hatcher pass. Yeah that bolt. The one that isn’t mentioned in your guide book because you’ve never set shoe to that route. If you ask me providing 100% not accurate beta for dangerous routes because you were too lazy to climb it yourself is criminal negligence. If you want to “save someones life” don’t publish inaccurate 20 year old information that you plagerized, and assumed was correct, when in fact, it is horribly WRONG. And don’t start renaming routes and crags when you cant find a facebook blog in the last year about it. Your dishonesty and unwillingness to admit to your mistakes and inaccuracies doesn’t make you more credible. Denial is not just a river in Egypt dood.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
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Well this is just getting interesting isn't it.
Well its obvious you know who I am so lets stop hiding behind aliases and if your going to say something why don't you tell me who you are. Since this is your first post here I don't give you any credit.
Hatcher has been under some pretty huge mounds of snow. It has been hard to rebolt there since I only started this winter although I was going to go to Hatcher Pass and start here in the next few weeks. Why don't you go count every bolt out there yourself before I start so you can see that I am only replacing bolts. I renamed no routes in the book that is why there are at least 100 routes with "Unknown" as the name and "Unknown" as the first ascent. If you are unwilling to share your information then at least don't throw a stupid hissy fit when your routes are put down as unknown. I could easily have renamed every route in the book but decided not to so that those who put up the route would have the possibility of stepping forward and filling up the gaps. It is your choice if you don't want to and I didn't hold that against anyone but what do you expect at that point?
I will admit my mistakes when I believe they have been made. I have no problem with that. I did not plagiarize information from 20 years ago. If I had wanted to do that then I could easily have done so with permission from the authors of First Steps. However I did not. Try to lay off that valley weed, its making you paranoid.
It is true that some areas of the Seward Highway are falling apart. Look at Weeping Wall, that area is a disaster. What I am finding though is that it is becoming more and more popular with climbers in the Anchorage area. The Scar is years out of print and super hard to get, most people don't even seem to know about it these days. I came to the dilemma of should I or should I not include the Highway in the next updated book. I decided that I should because there are some fun routes along it and some safe places to climb. I also really enjoy myself on some good highway days because I just love getting out and climbing. I have been trying to replace these routes that I believe are generally safe. I don't think any wall is immune from rockfall.
Mighty Hiker - Apparently you can't even replace a bolt here without massive amounts of scrutiny. However I think the main problem I am having is because I am actually putting myself out there. I am not rebolting these routes and hiding behind an alias or just "not telling anyone". I think if you are going to do something you should stand behind it.
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bigdamnjohnson
climber
palmer, alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
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so your the information you published for catch the wave is accurate, and you climbed the route, and that is where your beta came from? or you never climbed it, and your sh#t is way off, and you wont admit it?
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
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It says in the book that I didn't climb it. Says "from what I hear" right there in the description, no stars, no letter grades on the difficulties. If I didn't climb it, then I didn't claim to.
The information that I got for that route was a combination of information from Andy Hoyt and Roger Pollard. I have already admitted there are routes with incomplete information in the first book. That was book one and the reason for a second.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 04:23pm PT
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Here is a few pictures of the bolts I have pulled along the Seward Highway since October.
I counted 85. The piton was the third piece in an anchor and not necessary after two new anchor bolts.
It doesn't look like I am the one having a problem with admitting they are wrong here.
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bigdamnjohnson
climber
palmer, alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
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incomplete means i that something is missing dead flat wrong information on a route is not what most people call incomplete.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
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Still hiding behind your alias. Want to continue this conversation then comon out behind it. Could just admit your Hoyt and that you are the one who gave me the info. Then what? I will go out and climb the route this summer as already planned. The information will change for the next book. I don't know if it is wrong as I just stated I did not climb it. If it is wrong then it will be changed and you will have to find something else to complain about.
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bigdamnjohnson
climber
palmer, alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
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consider your sources dude
somebody who hasnt climbed up there in decades, or
somebody who has been climbing up there For decades, but cant remember what he had for breakfast that day
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
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haha when you say it like that it seems like you could eliminate half the climbing community up here.
Still hiding though, that makes me wonder on your sources.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 04:48pm PT
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Kelsey - Andy doesn't live in Palmer.
Your book is full of misinformation. Long story short it sucks. That's what happens when someone writes a book about something they know nothing about. How about the retrobolts at Hatchers? Your book makes them all sound original. Another attempt at rewritting history? How about the slack line bolts? They didn't last long though. Again shame on the ASCA for helping this kid f*#k up our crags.
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bigdamnjohnson
climber
palmer, alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
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I climbed a route with andy this summer in hp. Obvious route, in full view of the road, awsome hand traverse out roof to 20 meter handcrack on 2nd of 4 roped pitches. 5 stars. When i asked him why it wasnt in the guidebook, he said dont get me started, and catch the wave if 5.10 yeah right. some elaboration on that, obviously very knowledgable of the area
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 05:09pm PT
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So John at least we are getting to the point here. You are pissed at me for everyones retrobolting. No matter how long ago it was. Why don't you get a hobby?
So Johnson your souce is someone who can't remember his breakfast that morning? I could not include everything in the book. More will be in the next. If you think something should be in there then speak up. Otherwise don't just complain, it's useless.
Your crags? I've never once seen you climbing out there. Ever.
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bigdamnjohnson
climber
palmer, alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
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I think john is pissed at you because he come from a way different school than you. John climbs some serious and hard shiz, he has been for a long time. John doesnt clip or place a whole lot of bolts. The approaches alone to the "routes" that he does would crush most "athletes". John doesnt spray very hard. Call this "old school"
this old school guy sees "new school"
oh boy i got my top rope card and i am really psyched, lets write a guidebook. Yay!!! spray....
Old schools gut reaction is too call out "new school"
new school gets new school.
when called out he refuses to admit he has no clue and should have listend to the people he talked to pre-guidebook... makes ass out of self publicly
Usually at this point most people would maybe try to gain some experience...
new school proceeds to spray and whore self out to asca
wastes time on climbings top ten worst crag instead of learning how to walk before he learns to spray.
new school sprays about waste of time
old school gut reaction to call him out again
guy from palmer tells new school that he isnt fit to carry old schools garbage out.
and dont start some retarded thread like a "bolt chopping question" if you have replaced 80 so far you have obviously got it figured out. quit shopping for attention. Go spend some of you free time finding the better crags in alaska that are out there.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
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Actually I pulled those bolts but had some that would not come out so I had to cut them but wanted to ask the experienced folks here what there ideas were. I could just run out and do it anyway I could think of but wanted to approach the best way I could.
John does them alone because he gets in a fight with his climbing partner then leaves him miles in while he drives away with all the guys gear. It would suck to have to climb alone because nobody trusts you. He sure knows a lot about the highway for someone who doesn't clip a lot of bots. What crap. Don't try to make this a new school vs old school thing. He's not even from here.
You sound like some suck up kid who thinks he knows all just because he hung around with someone"old school". This is my last response to you unless you want to come out behind your alias.
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bigdamnjohnson
climber
palmer, alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
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im not going to tell you my name, i dont need you misquoting me in the next version of your "guidebook"
this is what you are missing
i dont really want to hear a response from you, i think instead you should focus your energies to write an ACCURATE, COMPLTETE, book to south central alaska that includes a majority of the known areas, not simply the majority that are known to you
if you have problems getting information from your predecesors, dont bitch about it, do what they did. put on a pack, go find the climbs. King mountain sounds nice. Will it be in your next guide? are you too lazy to hike up there? Or leave it out entirely and hold a grudge against Skine because he wont carry you up there and ropegun for you?
Riding on the laurals of being a "guidbook author" and conning the asca into giving you a bunch of bolts is kinda weak. at least replace bolts that actually need it, and on quality climbs, instead of encourgaing people to climb on dangerous shitty rock.
Just keep on spraying while the rest of us keep playin
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
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You really need to get your facts straight.
A half dozen Grade V and VI FA's in the last year. One solo and the rest with partners. Some old, some new. All to hard for you.
As for "old school" I learned to climb in NC 25 years ago. How long have you been at it? You tried to write a guide book after your 2nd or 3rd year, no wonder it sucks. Now we have a rookie with a power drill and no ethics or even a hint of respect.
I like the "left my partner in the woods". You've got that story way wrong. I have NEVER left any of my climbing partners.
As far as needing a hobby... you put in 85 new bolts for me.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
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Well thats a step although I have no idea what you mean by mosquitoing.
There is a lot of climbing in this state. You really expect someone to do Everything before a book is written? What you expect is a climbing dictionary of all routes the first time? Lots of people wanted a book and they don't care if it doesn't have every single route in it the first time. They just wanted to have an idea on where to climb since there were no guidebooks! First Steps was an "old school" guidebook and it had about 80 routes at most as far as I can tell. Are you saying they shouldn't have published it? You are letting your frustrations cloud your intelligence. Perhaps you would have been more satisfied if I had said "A collection of routes from Southcentral Alaska" then your whining would have less validity.
I put on a pack and went and climbed a whole lot of routes. Then some of those who refused to tell me any information got pissed because I didn't call it exactly what they wanted or did it differently then they did. I am not the one being pissy because my routes are not exactly like I wanted.
I have nothing at all against Skine. No grudge in any way or form. I respect both him and Kirsten and although they didn't want to contribute to the book I still appreciated their friendliness as the crag. Like I said, nobody has to contribute that is entirely their prerogative. I have had no current intentions of heading up to King Mountain. I feel they are still developing it and it is not a good time to open it up to the public, I would also like to do so with their consent which may or may not ever come. Still it is their choice.
I did not ride on anything to receive bolts from the ASCA. I will continue to rebolt because it is something I enjoy doing and I think it is making a difference. I started on the highway and will move into Hatcher Pass and other areas as the snow allows. I will continue to do this even if I have to pay for it myself. Do not get pissed at me just because I am not bolting what you want me to. If you are so upset then try doing something for someone other then yourself and beat me to it. If someone else was out there replacing bolts I really wouldn't mind. I think its necessary here. I enjoy the routes that I am rebolting, they are fun and some get lots of traffic. The routes that are deemed to dangerous will not be getting new bolts and will be placed as dangerous in the next book.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
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We could do this whole "your facts are wrong" garbage all day John. I did not try to write a book after my second or third year. I climbed routes up to 5.12 while writing the guidebook, those are all to hard for you. What does that mean? NOTHING! You are climbing differently then I. Just because I don't really like freezing my ass off in a gully of ice doesn't mean I don't have my own set of strengths.
I am not going to argue this old school stuff with you. Just because I have zero respect for a thief and a liar such as yourself doesn't mean I don't respect the climbers before or around me.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
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Removing retrobolts doesn't make someone a thief. CSP considers anything left unattended for over 24hrs as abandoned.
Hoytt and Varney took you on your first trip to Hatchers. It was only a few years before your book came out. I took you on your first ice climbing trip. I even loaned you gear. That was before I knew how big of a jackass you are.
You're completely clueless.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 10:00pm PT
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Dew Mound is going to be in the next guide FYI.
What kind of credentials would you like? Certification of the space program? How about I have never rebolted something I haven't climbed.
You assume to tell me I have no say yet give nothing of use yourself.
John you are vastly off as far as Hoyt and Varney taking me on my first trip to the valley. Ive never actually climbed with Varney only met him once at Goats Head Soup. This is a good time to admit you were wrong. Admit you have sprayed false information about me and about what I am doing. Lets see if you have the balls to admit your mistakes. Yes I went ice climbing with you and that was my first time ice climbing. I appreciated it, it was far from my first time rock climbing however and I am still amazed at how much of a jerk you morphed into. If you want a medal for it your not getting one. I know this is because of how you like to present yourself over the internet. This display you create does not make you look more of a man.
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coldclimb
climber
Wasilla, Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 10:16pm PT
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For what it's worth, and to help prevent some of the climbing community outside Alaska from being swayed by rumors without being around to know for themselves what's going on, here's a few points from a local in close contact with prezwoodz on a daily basis:
Kelsey hasn't placed any ASCA bolts except in direct replacement of other old manky bolts. He's got the rack of old manky bolts to prove it, and they number MORE than the ASCA bolts he's been given.
Kelsey has worked with the local FAs regarding their routes, and the vast majority are all for distributing information and improving the safety of the routes. I can list a number of them off the top of my head that have given him direct explicit permission to rebolt or even ADD bolts to any of their routes, and that is because he approached them and asked about that, and they trust his judgment. There's really not a lot of negative feeling about his efforts, but what there is is from a small group of very vocal individuals. Which leads to my next point:
John Kelley has a history of antagonism and animosity in the local climbing community. He's pulled bolts, been involved in physical and legal disputes with his climbing partners, and just generally been the source of a lot of discontent.
The last guy who tried to make a guidebook for this area suffered everything from light negativity to outright death threats, and wound up not carrying it through. Kelsey writing a guide at all has been a seriously impressive effort (He did it in a year of non-stop climbing, living in his jeep at the base of each crag he worked and making the effort to climb every single route he put in the guide), and has done an enormous amount of help to the local climbers who don't have an in to get route information from established old-schoolers.
So there's a couple points of perspective anyway, if it matters, from one who grew up climbing right here in Southcentral Alaska starting fifteen years ago.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 20, 2011 - 10:39pm PT
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Kelley
Kelsey
If you think there is anyone out here listening, everyone needs to ditch their avatar.
This is not a good one.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 11:01pm PT
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Good idea jstan! Yay new avatar.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 11:15pm PT
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I've never been involved in ANY physical or legal disputes with anyone. Where do you come up with this sh#t? If you would like a physical dispute I'm game. Let me know?
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 20, 2011 - 11:44pm PT
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I think this has run its course. I'm going to go climb something you can continue to hit the refresh button and wait for something else to stew in.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 11:49pm PT
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Coldclimb- John borland - AKA the slackline bolter. For years you kids bitched that I chopped your bolts until one day ya'll finally figured out it was soeone else. I've chopped eight bolts in the last decade. All were retrobolts! This # is sure to increase. When you tards stop retrobolting I'll stop chopping. What's happening is some kids want to be know as climbers but they aren't willing to do any climbing worth mentioning. Too much work so instead they add bolts to climbs. They claim it's some kind of community service. That's pretty weak.
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coldclimb
climber
Wasilla, Alaska
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Feb 20, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
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Yep, I'm the only coldclimb out there, except the one on boldering.com mocking me. :D
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coldclimb
climber
Wasilla, Alaska
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Feb 21, 2011 - 12:00am PT
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You were the one who informed me those bolts were chopped, and you told me yourself that it was someone else. :D
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 21, 2011 - 04:26am PT
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read about them in the AAJ if you want
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Feb 21, 2011 - 04:52am PT
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John- I thought Johnson was spraying, I was confused.
I pulled my post b/c it was not relevant to the spray, and I was pimp slapping the wrong spraylord.
Still, both of you are spraylords.
AAJ....PFFfffft!
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 21, 2011 - 11:11pm PT
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Walked up to Pivot Point today just to have a look. Center Fire now has 3 retrobolts on it. All for Naught and Naught for All have one retrobolt each. On the Upper Pivot Point the Butt Crack has 2 retrobolts and the unnamed 5.8 to the right has had two retrobolts added.
These have all been added this fall/winter.
Kelsey - Have you been bolting here too? If it's not you then who?
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squishy
Mountain climber
sacramento
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Feb 21, 2011 - 11:59pm PT
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 22, 2011 - 12:15am PT
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JIMB - I'm posting this here because the people supplying him with bolts post here. In the same thread even. I understand it takes a little thought to figure that out but now you know.
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coldclimb
climber
Wasilla, Alaska
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Feb 22, 2011 - 01:35am PT
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Were they ASCA hangers?
I think we can all guess the answer. ;)
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 22, 2011 - 02:24am PT
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The ASCA is supplying a know retrobolter with hardware. He uses his stuff for retrobolts and theirs for replacements. What's the difference?
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coldclimb
climber
Wasilla, Alaska
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Feb 22, 2011 - 02:41am PT
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That statement is simply entirely untrue.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 22, 2011 - 02:58am PT
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That statement is simply entirely untrue.
Funny, it sounds exactly like what's happening. I'd say the only real questions left are whether the ASCA will keep supplying him now that they do know prezwoods has been retrobolting, whether prezwoods will stop retrobolting, and whether John will get busy chopping.
Prezwoods: No ASCA bolts have been used for anything but replacing older bolts. I want to make very sure that you understand that.
That clearly isn't the issue, if all you were doing was rebolting this thread wouldn't exist, but you're retrobolting and it doesn't matter who you talk to when they're long established routes, it's going to piss folks off. It's simple, stick with rebolting and you'll have zero problems with this issue.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 22, 2011 - 03:04am PT
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That's exactly whats happening. Sooner or later I'll get them all chopped.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 22, 2011 - 03:45am PT
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Guess I'll have to revisit this although I hoped to let it die.
Healyje - This thread exists because John has a problem with me, he has for a long time. I am not sure what that problem even is anymore. The bolts added to Hocus Pocus and Splat Button were added on June 18th. I had not added any bolts to a pre-existing climb before and certainly not since. Nor will I add anymore to a pre-existing climb without the explicit permission of the FA party. This decision came about way before this argument here. I didn't receive any bolts from the ASCA until I think October, or at least September at the earliest. Greg should have record of that. I have proof that those bolts were added in June.
As for Pivot Point John I cannot defend those bolts because I have already stated I did not put those up. I was surprised to see them myself and they were already there earlier last summer with the exception of Butt Crack. I had no idea that was bolted. As this thread should show I have no problem speaking for what I have done and admitting to the routes that I have bolted or rebolted. I am not the only one with a drill or bolts. Although I do feel like maybe they are the more intelligent ones for doing it quietly and not admitting to who they are!
I am continuing this argument because I want to set the record straight. I will answer anything you come up with frankly and honestly. I will not engage you in a flamefest any longer.
I have sticked entirely with rebolting only, this includes both ASCA bolts and my own which I have used when I ran out of the ones sent to me. I would love to put up a few routes this summer but they will be entirely new and not pre-existing lines.
Squishy, you have the best post in this whole thread!
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 22, 2011 - 04:07am PT
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My problem with you is your complete disreguard for clean climbing. Retrobolts, slackline bolts, etc. I urge the ASCA to withdraw their suppout.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 22, 2011 - 04:26am PT
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I myself have never placed slackline bolts before. The rest has already been discussed here. What is included in your ect..?
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coldclimb
climber
Wasilla, Alaska
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Feb 22, 2011 - 04:32am PT
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Joseph, I'm curious because you typically seem like a pretty smart guy: What are you basing your accusations on?
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dipper
climber
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Feb 22, 2011 - 04:34am PT
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I seem to be pretty good at killing threads around here.
This thread is well past done.
See if you two can't find something meaningful to occupy your time with.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 22, 2011 - 04:37am PT
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Thank you dipper.
Life is so much more important than accusations and explanations.
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wildone
climber
Troy, MT
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Feb 22, 2011 - 04:44am PT
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John Kelley Is a classic Jim Beyer type. You can see it from a mile away.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 22, 2011 - 05:48am PT
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The etc. includes things like your book. Full of misinformation. It's not cool how you try to pass retrobolts as origionals, rename climbs, stuff like that. Not all stone needs to be ADA compliant.
Beyer and I aren't really the same. We had more in common when I lived in Durango and climbed together quite often. We did do a new line last summer in the St. Elias Range though.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 22, 2011 - 05:59am PT
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Joseph, I'm curious because you typically seem like a pretty smart guy: What are you basing your accusations on?
I'm not making any accusations. Prezwoodz said he retrobolted, john said he had a hard time with that. I'm merely pointing out that if prezwoodz' activities were confined to rebolting there wouldn't be an issue of any kind and certainly not one Greg and the ASCA would get dragged into.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 22, 2011 - 06:22am PT
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A complete history of every single climb is not my intent. I listed bolt amounts, not when they were installed or who installed them. You are more then welcome to start a history of each climb and who bolted it first as well as when it was retrobolted. I would love to read such a detailed history but I for one will not be writing it.
I see healyje. I think the issue here is when you say that I "am retrobolting" which is not true. I did once, and I mean once. Saying that I am retrobolting indicates it is something I have done recently or will continue to do when neither is the truth. I have already had this whole argument / conversation about these two climbs with many locals and I thought it was a settled subject. ---- I find the person who put up the FA. I tell them what I did regardless of their support or frustrations with me. If they are against the bolts I will gladly cut and patch them myself. If I cannot find the FA party I will cut and patch them as well due to a lack of permission. ---- I understand what you are saying but I feel that John Kelleys attempts at slander here really have nothing to do with these 5 bolts. I believe this conversation would be happening regardless of those 5 as is evidence by the accusations that are being made which are vastly incorrect. I find the rebolting project that I have undertaken something of much greater importance to me.
I find it hard to believe that all this frustration is about the right side of this.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 22, 2011 - 06:26am PT
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Prezwoods, I did say that in past-tense as in 'retrobolted' and did not say you were currently.
I've rebolted 68 fixed rap/belay anchors and know what goes into the effort and I'd guess that
is appreciated by all concerned. If you say that's the end of your retrobolting then
I'd agree it would seem to be a moot point now.
I know it might seem odd, but people do get attached to rocks of all quality.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 22, 2011 - 06:29am PT
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I do definitely say that the was the last and only time I will ever be retrobolting.
I know what you mean about the attachment. I actually like the Seward Highway climbing.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 22, 2011 - 07:06am PT
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I already told you why I don't like you. It's your complete lack of ethics and total disrespect for the stone.
The ASCA has made a major mistake giving you anything. You kinda made them look the fool.
Your empty promise to fix it yourself never happened. You had time to correct your mistake, over eight months, but choose not to.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 22, 2011 - 07:09am PT
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It would seem there is more going on here than the rebolting/retrobolting activity and given my comments
revolved solely around that issue I guess I'll bow out at this point as that aspect of the dispute would seem
settled from what I can tell.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 22, 2011 - 07:12am PT
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Why don't you post a picture of the side you grid bolted?
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 22, 2011 - 07:20am PT
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Don't have a picture of that side John on this computer. Have you got one? I'd post if I had at. Pulled that one from Rockclimbing.com. Grid bolted is a bit of a stretch.
I think someone here is trying to make them look the fool but arguing over such things as we have done in this thread only makes us both look like fools.
No it had not been done yet, I'll admit I was still hoping to find the FA Party. Wishful thinking I suppose. I just asked someone a few days ago who gave me some information on those routes. Still searching, and I will continue to do so because now Its like a good mystery.
healyje I appreciate your comments and your level headed replies.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 26, 2011 - 12:06am PT
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Kelsey - Why are you posting a pic of bigdamnjohnson on your cheese dick forum asking who he is? It's obvious he's someone who isn't into your bolting everything or your book. Part of the majority.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 26, 2011 - 04:02am PT
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Curiosity?
Why are you spending your time on a forum you obviously hate? Didn't this thread die already?
Enough is enough.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 26, 2011 - 06:05am PT
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You revived it with your manhunt. This thread will die when you stop bolting everything.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 26, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
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Your iright I don't want to know who that is anymore, it doesn't matter. A
I am not adding new bolts. I've said it plenty.
Stop spreading these lies around the community.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Feb 26, 2011 - 03:57pm PT
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Walked up to Pivot Point today just to have a look. Center Fire now has 3 retrobolts on it. All for Naught and Naught for All have one retrobolt each. On the Upper Pivot Point the Butt Crack has 2 retrobolts and the unnamed 5.8 to the right has had two retrobolts added.
These have all been added this fall/winter.
Kelsey - Have you been bolting here too? If it's not you then who? -- johnkelley
Dude, what a wanker. You're accusing somebody of adding bolts when you obviously don't know yourself who did the deed. What's worse, you're demanding that Kelsey tell you who added the bolts, essentially accusing him of being an accomplice if he himself did not do it.
In this thread, Prezwoodz has been upfront, reasonable, an responsive. You, johnkelley, have been nothing but accusatory and hot-headed.
Now, go to the bank, take out all your money, and buy a clue.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 26, 2011 - 11:43pm PT
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Lies? All of those bolts have been added by someone. Hopefully they will stop.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 27, 2011 - 01:55am PT
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You'll have to take that up with them.
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wildone
climber
Troy, MT
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Feb 27, 2011 - 02:01am PT
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JK is a f*#king goon.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Feb 27, 2011 - 02:14am PT
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by "someone" lol...way to narrow it right down dude
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 27, 2011 - 03:36am PT
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I'll just keep pulling them out. Last time around all the kids bitched that there was no discussion now the same people are bitching that it's being discussed. Wildbone you're a nonparticipant so your opinion does not matter.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 27, 2011 - 04:06am PT
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I'm not sure what your talking about but this really didn't feel like a discussion. More like an interrogation.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 27, 2011 - 04:43am PT
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Fine, it's just chop chop from here on out.
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wildone
climber
Troy, MT
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Feb 27, 2011 - 05:06am PT
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I'm a non-participant? You don't know me.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Feb 27, 2011 - 05:39am PT
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I think its a good idea to find out who's putting those up before chopping anything. At least a discussion with the FA party should be attempted.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Feb 27, 2011 - 06:33am PT
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Ok wildbone who are you then? Kelsey these have been established routes for generations. They don't need bolts added to them. So it's chop time.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Feb 27, 2011 - 09:54am PT
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Last time around all the kids bitched that there was no discussion now the same people are bitching that it's being discussed. Wildbone you're a nonparticipant so your opinion does not matter.
I've seen you posting all this stuff to a bunch of other bulletin boards J Kelly. Look, you guys need to get together and discuss this mano -e mano. As far as the chopping thing goes, go for it. Or maybe you want the "authorities" to step in and manage it and you? In either case, almost all of us are "non-participants". Most of us have never been to Alaska and never will. We feel lucky if we can spell it correctly. The closest we get to Alaska is watching Sarah Palin on the news and having erotic thoughts. (Yeah, I said it out loud, you all know it's true)
You will not effect change by ranting on a thread mostly read by So Californians Kelly. Go look some of these guys in the eyes and discuss it right to their faces. Try to be less shrill too. If you can't find them then twist the offending bolts off with a breaker bar. SNAP. just like that. If they feel that they have a right to put them into an established route without discussing it with you or the first ascentionists, you have as much right to snap them off without discussing it with them. Takes all of 10 seconds... if that. It would be much faster than these long written rants to strangers who don't care a whit, and much more effective as well.
I'm making the assumption that you did discuss this with the folks who did the FA and that led you to this point, if not, you need to get your sh#t together in a very serious way and figure it out and you won't be able to get there from here. So get on the telephone and start dialing your buddies to get it figured out. Or you can chose to continue to rant online, in which case we'll all know that you are full of hot air and not serious, cause if you were serious, and this was important, you'd go do what I said up there. Maybe read this post twice if you need too so you have it figured out.
Good luck to you all.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Feb 27, 2011 - 10:19am PT
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The closest we get to Alaska is watching Sarah Palin on the news and having erotic thoughts.
If erotic thoughts include barfing, then yeah, I guess you're right.
I haven't seen the routes, but if all these retro bolts are just she-man bolts, then I'm with JK. In climbing, nothing pisses me off more than those things. Just do it right.
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wildone
climber
Troy, MT
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Feb 27, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
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+1 on the barfing/gouging my eyes out...
Unlike you, I actually have climbed on the seward highway, as my company has a condo in Anchorage, where I find myself often enough. Hell, maybe I'll see JK out there someday, yarding out bolts! You never know.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Feb 27, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
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The closest we get to Alaska is watching Sarah Palin on the news and having erotic thoughts. (Yeah, I said it out loud, you all know it's true
Now yer talking!!!
Jump on the Palin Train, IT"S RUNNIN HOTTTTT!!!!
John, you should just go send another epic route dude. Obviously your not busy chopping, rather running your anoying mouth and taking up space on the front page.
Edit: OOPs, I just bumped this to the top.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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The Chugach State Park is now taking comments on it's newly proposed policy which bans the placement and use of any perminent anchor in the CSP. I guess the CSP noticed the few hundred new bolts along the hwy and some other spots as well.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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The Chugach State Park is now taking comments on it's newly proposed policy which bans the placement and use of any perminent anchor in the CSP. I guess the CSP noticed the few hundred new bolts along the hwy and some other spots as well.
Well since you publicized this so widely, it's a sure bet that they read your words and that you yourself have caused this. I live 1000's of miles away and read your bitching on multiple web sites. (first causation goes to the bolter of course, but you get the credit here).
Congrats. Hope you are happy.
What the hell is wrong with people who are always bitching online and don't expect things like this to occur?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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The policy change proposal is because of the hundred or so new bolts you can see from the road, mostly ASCA bolts btw. Where are the bolters now? They stood in line to take credit for all of the drilling "services". What does the ASCA/Greg Barnes have to say? They seem pretty proud about the new hardware too.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Well, at least you feel that you are innocent.
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William Finley
Mountain climber
Anchorage
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I'll be the first to admit that I'm not happy about the retro bolts. If a line has been TR only or a highball problem for years then it shouldn't be bolted for the masses. This year I've seen retro bolts on Center Fire and on Upper Pivot Point plus the old ones that have been on Sunshine Ridge for a few years now. I recently went to Upper Crack in the Woods and noticed the bolts are gone - which is a good thing. Thanks for pulling them cleanly (I could barely find the holes).
However... hundreds of retro bolts? Please fill me in. I've been climbing on the highway more than usual this summer and I haven't been seeing these hundreds of retro bolts. Or do you call replacing old 1/2" bolts retro bolting? Having ripped off more chossy holds than usual this rainy summer I've not been too keen on getting on anything with rusty old button heads. Call me a wimp.
Do you really think that the Chugach State Park Planners want to ban fixed anchors because they've had a sudden environmental change of heart? Please... this is the same plan that proposes a new road through the park up to Glen Alps. The same plan that removes all of Crow Pass from the wilderness zone. The same plan that allows tactical military training in the wilderness zone, commercial power development in the non-wilderness portions of the park and new huts in Peters Creek and Bird Creek.
When compared to the issues I listed above the issue of fixed anchors is ridiculously trivial. If the park wants to implement a fixed anchor ban because of a handful of new bolts (which I guarantee you neither Monica Alvarez nor Tom Harrison have ever seen) then chances are they're only doing so because of a very vocal local who can't seem to talk about this in a rational manner.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Great, if this ban goes through then we'll be stuck with the existing bolts.
Yes, whoever added all the bolts to upper pivot was an idiot, it should have stayed as a top rope bouldering area, a few bolts to setup a tr, and that's it. But somebody when bosh crazy up there, and it boggles my mind that somebody would add two bolts with malions above the crack when one could walk off faster than they could set up a rap and pull the rope.
But why get on the internet and spray about threats of chopping the retrobolts, either get out there and chop them, or STFU. When I was up at Pivot Point a few weeks back my instict was to come back with a crowbar. But I guess I've matured or mellowed somewhat as I realize the rock loses when we get into spats over bolts. Does this really justify a bolt war?
Sarcastic jab to the bolters, you've really accomplished something when you retrobolt something that was toproped by a 6 y/o.
As this statement, "I guess the CSP noticed the few hundred new bolts along the hwy and some other spots as well. "
A few hundred, really???
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William Finley
Mountain climber
Anchorage
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it boggles my mind that somebody would add two bolts with malions above the crack when one could walk off faster than they could set up a rap and pull the rope. Next time you're up there look at the trees nearby. They've been trashed from years of TR anchors. Sometimes a couple bolts have less impact. Placing fixed rock anchors in popular areas to keep vegetation healthy is an accepted practice throughout the US and something that climbers should encourage.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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As I said, I have no problem with bolts as tr anchors, they certainly have their place. That said, in the 14 odd years I’ve been up here, I think the bolting chronology in that time frame is something like:
There were a pair of 5/16” button heads with smc hangers placed way back at the top of the rock, kind of a stupid location given the length of slings needed.
12 odd years ago I placed a couple of welded 3/8” cold shuts on the top of the 5.8 route that was retrobolted this year. They were a logical location for a tr anchor, but I regret using the cold shuts. I also placed another set up anchors higher and to the right for the next face over for a tr.
I think the next year or so Bruce and Kate retrobolted the 5.8 that now has 5 lead bolts and two tr bolts, as shown in this pic.
This summer somebody smashed off one of the welded cold shuts on the top of the 5.8, put in a new bolt and hanger (don’t know why they didn’t replace both of them or patch the old bolt) and they retrobolted the tr with 3 new lead bolts. Also the crack route now sports 2 bolts on top, with mallions. It’s the mallions that make no sense to me, they are poorly located to rap from, and really don’t need to be so far back for a tr anchor. So now that little rock has 10 anchors on top of it, 8 lead bolts, oops 9 counting one next to the crack.
It’s a nice little location, far enough away from the highway that you can barely hear the cars, for the area very solid rock, and nicely featured. I just don’t see why somebody would go crazy adding lead bolts to short established tr problems that have been done countless times as highballs. I can’t see how anyone could get a sense of accomplishment from “leading” those routes, or adding bolts to them. Respect the fact that the routes are established tr’s and climb them as such.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Conclusion, bolt wars are almost as lame as arguing on the internet. Don't know what sort of lameness arguing bolt wars on the internet brings one to.
But with all this fervor, I simply had to check out the routes that had generated this spat. It's been years since been to upper crack in the woods, certainly I must have been missing something as why had I not been back to such an amazing spot in years?
Whoever did the chopping did a fine job, as I couldn't see where any bolts had been placed, though I didn't put that much effort into the inspection. I don't have my guide book with me but I'm pretty sure it was Hocus Pocus I dropped a line down from the top and rope soloed at lunch today. I know I'd climbed it ~10 years ago and at the time was suprised that I could still climb a 5.10. Well, getting back on it kinda cleared up why (I'm a long ways from being solid on 10's as I was back in the day). The tan metolious hanger also jostled my memory that I'd replaced the original bolt with as I recall a 3/8" 3 1/2" 5pc rawl bolt.
My pas camera died earlier this year, so appologies for no pics, though you're not missing much. Here's about as good of a description of the route as I can muster. There is a low angle 3rd class slab to the base of the route, the slab is ~20' and change, then it trasitions to just less than verticle. There is a small crack that will accept I'm guessing a 4 or 5 sized chock you can place before getting on the route. The first move or two is 5.8 with solid hand and foot holds. You can't clip the bolt at this point, but there is a crack that will accept a #2 camalot, and still allow you to use the crack as a handhold. So that's two pieces of gear about 2' apart. Then you have to work up to thin foot and hand holds for one move until you reach a bomber jug, and can clip the bolt. After that it's jugs to the top. The bolt is at your feet when your hands are at the top of the route, though you could place another cam or nut before topping out, for that added security. I'm not sure how accurate my vernier eyebrows are, but I'd say it's 20' of verticle rock, maybe a scoach more.
All this spew and spray about one of the most forgettable climbs on a highway full of forgettable climbs? I mean, out of 200 routes along the highway you'd be hard pressed to find a handful you'd want to share with a visiting climber.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Oct 14, 2011 - 05:38am PT
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Hey Paul,
In reference to your comments about Upper Pivot I'm not sure who has been adding bolts to that area. I have seen a lot of cars there this last year so its had a huge increase in traffic. The route you posted of the 6yo on the rock, did she really TR that bottom section? Man I thought it was kind of tough. At least directly from where that person put the bolt in. Of course its only hard for 4ft but oh well.
That bolt on Butt Crack is a silly one. It looks like it has been there for a long time. My thought was that maybe it was one they put in a long time ago for the face climb? I was also surprised that someone added a few more bolts to the 5.8 as I didn't think it was all that bad before. I was up in that area looking for bolts to replace and felt that they were all good (at least newish) except for that one which, of course, had no reason to be replaced. Its old and to close to a crack. I did replace the anchor on the Lefty area. I was surprised to see the bolts on Centre Fire and wondered who put them up as well. I think that most of this specific type of bolting has been limited to the Pivot Area. It seems to see the most traffic of all the areas as well. I haven't seen a single other person installing bolts since I've been climbing on the highway, I am really curious!
I have been climbing all the highway routes to put them in the book. I've also talked with everyone I can think of who put those routes up on the highway. If you know of anyone who I can get in touch with to get more history / information on any of the routes please let me know.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Oct 14, 2011 - 09:47am PT
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Oct 14, 2011 - 12:26pm PT
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Kelsey,
Pat Rinehart is the only one I know of that is active doing stuff on the highway (but not at upper pivot), but I don't think he's done much lately. I think he and Jason Moncrieff (who's apparently moved out of state) did the bolting on Pivot.
As to new routes, The 3 bolt face route on upper crack in the woods was bolted by me and Pat the got the FA calling it 10a, but that was about 10 years ago, and I forget what it was named. On Party World I bolted the line that starts to the left of Urban Blight and runs pretty much straight up to a set of chains, Pat also did the FA calling it 10b. I named that one Gerard McDonnel Memorial after our friend that was killed on K2.
I'm also the one that's bolted a new line on Good Vibes wall that starts to the left of classic crack, but I still haven't gotten back to finish it. There are 3 bolts, it needs a 4th and a rap station above it. I'd thought I'd finish it this summer, but it just didn't happen.
Oh, I did some rebolting on Sunshine Ridge a week or so back. I put two 1/2" bolts with hangers at the top, replaced the old 1/4" well rusted leeper hanger and button head just below the summit with a ss 3/8" 5 pc rawl, and rapped to the top of the 3rd pitch to pull the 5/16" button head and replaced it with a 1/2" ss 5 pc rawl. I still need to replace the 2nd bolt at the start of the route. Years ago I replaced the 1st and 3rd bolts on the first pitch with 3/8" ss 5pc rawls.
Are you going to include the ice climbs in the new Seward book?
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Oct 14, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
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Paul,
Thanks for the info! You filled a few holes I have for sure. I am glad you replaced those on Sunshine. I was going to go up there and replace them myself so you beat me to it! Let me know if you need a partner to go finish up that one on Good Vibes. Weather is still good for a climb.
The route left of Urban Blight meets with Urban blight after about 3 bolts or so correct? I think I know just which one you are talking about. I am gathering a list of people I am going to send a rough draft of the book to so everyone can help fill in blanks and fix mistakes. Would you mind being on that list?
Todd , Thanks for the tip. I'm going to go buy some gray paint for my next rebolting.
Kelsey
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Oct 14, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
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As I recall, it's been a few years, the line L of Urban Blight has 2 bolts on an overnhanging face, two on an arete, the 5th bolt is one of the existing bolts on Urban blight, and then I don't recall if there is another bolt before the belay station or not, I don't think so.
It's looking like my work schedule is going to be crazy busy until early/mid November so not likely I'll be able to get away to finish up the new route this season.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Oct 14, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
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I rarely have a 1/4 in bolt break off in the whole and unless the rocks bad I usually use the same hole to put the new bolt in.
Paul,
Well if you get ansy let me know. I'll probably be climbing out there on the rock to december.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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There are people who climb, and there are people who climb who think they should tell everyone else what to do and how to climb, not sure why. Interesting read.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 20, 2015 - 06:39pm PT
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Kelsey WTF is wrong with you? Did you have to knowingly retro bolt the start of Escape from the Lemming Farm?
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Sep 20, 2015 - 07:20pm PT
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Lol. Like we care.
Canadians
~~~
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Sep 20, 2015 - 07:28pm PT
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30 year old
5 star jam crack with a spicy start
been working up my nerves for a couple years for the lead
guess i dont have too anymore
If this was in yosemite, there would be blood
asca bolts too probably! ironic
Kelsey
u are a great photographer
but set a very poor example as a rock climber
please rethink and remove your bolts
and show some f*#kin respect
gotta draw the line in the sand somewhere
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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Sep 20, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
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I think you people should move where there is more sun. Might make you happier.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 21, 2015 - 08:15am PT
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Nope cave monkey you can just clip Kelsey's Gays retro bolts now... How many lines is this guy going to retro bolt? This isn't the first time Kelsey has decided to add bolts to old, established routes.
Is the ASCA still giving this guy bolts?
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couchmaster
climber
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Sep 26, 2015 - 07:16am PT
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You still don't have Kelseys phone number 3 years later? Jesus. Go look it up John and call him about it. Or go get a beer together and discuss it.
Johnkelly posted: "Sept 20, 2015 - 06:39pm PT
Kelsey WTF is wrong with you? Did you have to knowingly retro bolt the start of Escape from the Lemming Farm? "
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Sep 26, 2015 - 08:36am PT
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This is a current, recent, ongoing issue couch. The lines have been drawn in the sand, and noone is budging. Rather unfortunate, because a bolting-chopping-rebolting-rechopping-internet spraying-rebolting-re rechopping will likely ensue. Chelsea has made a lot of positive climbing related content to this site.....but he is in the wrong on this issue. John is a well known internet sh#t talker, but absolutely in the right on this issue, and I applaud him for bringing this issue to light. It is interesting to ponder what our climbing areas will look like in the future, because there are no laws against indiscriminate bolting, and anyone CAN put bolts wherever they want. Other than the climbing communities self regulation. Example.....Nothing is stopping me from putting a bolt ladder from the bottom to the top of El Cap
qualifier- I have been climbing and establishing routes in this particular area long before either of the two involved had even heard of it and was lucky enough to have climbed/camped/philosophized with the pioneers as well
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Sep 27, 2015 - 11:19pm PT
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It sounds like you guys have a "Nanook of the North" up there.
The one down here has been uncontrollably obnoxious for more than a decade.
Good luck on restricting the vandalism at your crags.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Sep 27, 2015 - 11:21pm PT
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I heard that dirty laundry is best aired with the shitty, shitty side out.
Congrats, AlaskA!
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Bent knee
Ice climber
VT
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Sep 28, 2015 - 07:03am PT
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Lived in Alaska from 2009- 2013. Encountered Kelsey numerous times both on the highway and in Hatcher. Spoke with him on a number of occasions regarding some of his rebolts, he never seemed to grasp the idea that replacing sh#t bolts doesn't give you the right to change a routes character. Basic argument "it doesn't get climbed with x so I'll do y and people will climb it." Some of my Kelsey bolt rage stemmed from going to a spot that had been bouldered for years and finding bolts on top not far from cracks and trees to TR off.So, one day I found his online route database for updating and spent a bit more than a year retracing his steps. bolts that were loose, out of character, or moved from the original got the chop or noted and someone else did the job. I think only 2 bolts were ASCA provided and iirc I was able to remove the hangers wth just my fingers. At the time not only was he cluster f*cking up routes he was doing a poor job at it.
Don't get me wrong Kelsey really is a nice guy and a solid climber with a lot of love for the sport but some of his goals have blinded him from seeing what he's doing.
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Dommelheimer
Trad climber
Anchorage
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Sep 28, 2015 - 11:22am PT
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This new issue is probably not actually a retrobolt, and I'm pretty sure neither Cavemonkey or John Kelley have actually gone up there to see what is being sprayed about, they might not even have seen a picture, but the new bolts are reportedly 15ft away from the climbs on either side.
The person who bolted this with Kelsey is as against retrobolts (or generally bolts) as anyone I know. It wasn't me as is being suggested.
This isn't an ethical discussion about retro bolts, but rather John's unreasonable dislike of Kelsey. I dislike retros as much as everyone, and while I probably wouldn't have squeezed a new line in there, Roger Pollard (one of the FAs) suggested to Kelsey that he establish a route there.
It would be great to give Kelsey credit for being one of the driving forces behind replacing old rustyass button heads in Alaska, and not let one or two outspoken characters demonize him by making (often) false accusations about him.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 28, 2015 - 12:58pm PT
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Here's what Sweeney, half of the FA party, had to say about it...
"Hadn't heard about the bolts on Lemming Ranch. Though it had good gear...pussies".
No one asked him anything about retro bolting his old routes. The idea that permission was given by the FA party to add bolts is a lie.
The idea that these bolts don't alter the start of Lemming Ranch is false.
The question I've repeatedly asked, that you have continued to dodge, is why? There's tons of unclimbed stone in the area. Tons of untouched rock for you to sink all the bolts into you want without anyone complaining too much. Why does the start of a high quality route need bolts added to it a quarter century after it was first climbed?
Why risk having this controversy at all?
It's a blatant slap in the face right down to the route name. Collateral Damage...
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 28, 2015 - 01:04pm PT
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Here's a photo
I'm not sure I see where it's been suggested that you placed the bolts? Some guy named Kris and Kelsey right?
Things I do see... Claims that the FA party was fully aware and supported this are simply untrue. I contacted 1/2 of the FA party as suggested by you. The idea that these bolts don't alter the start of Lemming Ranch are untrue. It's obvious in the photo which you falsely suggested that I've never seen.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 28, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
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Wow, John you really don't ever stop. I considered not actually replying to this since I'm sitting in Yosemite and doing actual climbing instead of just spraying constantly on the internet about routes you know nothing about. But I don't think its right to try as hard as you can to make someone look bad using lies and alter egos. So I'll correct you here in the open. Also you don't need to try and make up false accounts (cavemonkey, Bent Knee) to try and slander me. You do just fine on your own. So here goes, and I know that this is trivial and worthless information to a great many of you. And that we've wasted valuable life time arguing about something that really shouldn't matter. We should all go climbing. Sorry.
We did bolt a line to the left of Escape from the Lemming Ranch (not Farm, speaking of not knowing what your talking about), which I'm pretty sure you've never climbed. Before bolting the route we discussed the start and the start of lemming ranch and started far to the left of where I had climbed it before. I believed the start to be down and right at least 15ft or so from where our current route would go. When I wrote the previous book I had talked with Roger Pollard who did the first ascent and he told me he always thought the lower section could use a bolt. I , in fact, got permission from him to add a bolt to that area (which I intentionally did not do).
After we put up the route the picture went online and the storm started. We've picked through old photos and through it all I reached out to Roger and got his take on it. Here's a picture that Roger himself put up online on Rockclimbing.com. You can see the two original lines that he drew which are Escape From the Lemming Ranch and Tax Man Cometh. I drew in a red line to show where our line goes. This picture was taken from around 100 yards away. The distance between the two lines is at least 15ft at the base.
Now, that really should be enough to show that we did not in fact retrobolt it but it got interesting because there are also photos showing that they appeared to come from the left, which didn't match with the photo. Namely this picture of Roger leading it on an early if not first ascent.
So, which way does it go?
Well I was able to get in touch with Roger and here's what he sent me.
As I remember the pro was pretty crappy as I noted on your FB picture even though from the ground the crack looked good it was way too flaring to accept anything. I was carrying a drill with 1/4 bit so I had an out if things got weird. I also carried a couple pins and pounded a massively bomber lost arrow in at the base of the corner. It was a good thing that I did because I talked JJ Brooks into going out with me and see what he thought since I was talking it up. He ended up falling from the top of the dihedral (was weird because he was totally solid then airborne) all the gear ripped out and the only thing that stopped him from cratering was the pin. It was the longest fall I ever caught ...probably 30ft. The reason I mention this is the climb goes up right. straight up then left which is a setup for the naive leader a classic zipper situation. You MUST oppose the first piece! With all the sport climbers these days it is cause for worry. Also the belay bolts are sh#t .. 2x 1/4 inches (drilled by had i might add) so those definitely need to be replaced.
Not sure if the pin is still there. I recall leaving a long runner in it so someone could clip it from below and be somewhat protected. The climb should be a HP classic but might turn some away for the reasons mentioned. putting a bolt up by the flaring crack would help. Feel free to make it safe how ever you need to, with so few climbs I think it is necessary. I'm Glad to see you're working that wall, there's some good granite there.
And with that he sent me this picture of how the FA went down.
You'll see that the lines are different for sure although the first bolt does look like it could be on or close to the route. However if you were to climb it without the bolt you would not follow our line but a line 5ft to the right where Rogers line is in the picture. You would not be able to clip the bolt from the original line of easiest climbing without doing a small traverse left to clip it and then the second bolt would be off route.
So with all that being said we don't feel that we've retro bolted the route, even though we had permission to, its more like an alternate start at this point and even though we didn't mean to, it makes this classic a more appetizing climb which will probably see a lot more traffic at this point.
So there's my spiel. I know you still have problem with me JK, I dont really know why seeing that you don't actually climb rock or crag around here and I've never actually seen you before on the crags....ever...So lets get beyond this. Its annoying and really your the only one who cares to continue such a stupid argument or fight.
As to why we bolted it? Because its a pretty fun line.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 28, 2015 - 03:37pm PT
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Do you really not see how this is a retro bolting ?
"You'll see that the lines are different for sure although the first bolt does look like it could be on or close to the route. However if you were to climb it without the bolt you would not follow our line but a line 5ft to the right where Rogers line is in the picture".
Why didn't you contact Sweeney? The other half of the FA party. I think you had a pretty good idea what his answer would be.
This one shows it pretty good too.
Either way the route goes your bolts are additions to a route established a quarter century ago...
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 28, 2015 - 03:47pm PT
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The reason we did not is because we were not there to retrobolt any line and we did not. I know this pictures misleading because I took it. Why don't you go out there and follow the line that he drew and tell me what you think. Then come back and spray some more.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 28, 2015 - 03:58pm PT
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They're not. If anything I could see you try and make a claim for the first bolt even though that is not the way you would go if you were doing the FA and trying to climb the easiest line. Its not really that easy there. I'm letting you know because I know that you've never been to the wall or probably anything in Hatcher.
Lets get to the root of this. I know you've never been willing to actually talk to me in person because I've seen you around town and you avoid me. So whats your deal? You don't have any idea what your talking about so whats your plan?
Arent you something of an alpinist? Why don't you just spend your time and energy in something worthwhile?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 28, 2015 - 04:24pm PT
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Also your claim that I'm making up "false accounts to slander you" is laughable... I'm sure this will come out in the wash.
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Bent knee
Ice climber
VT
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Sep 28, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
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Sorry Kelsey, I'm not John, I've never met him although I vaguely remember calling or emailing him about climbing on Yukla. Kelsey whenever we met I was usually soloing, but there may have been a time or two that I was with Eddie or other well known SC long time locals.
Kelsey you and I have a philosophical difference and when you mention "I added a bolt that will make a classic line safer or tamer for the masses (paraphrasing)" it makes me cringe a bit. Otherwise I applaude you for your efforts on cleaning up the countless time bombs lurking around Anchorage.
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Sep 28, 2015 - 05:17pm PT
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I also am not John
nor have I ever climbed with him
but I am familiar with the two of youz disagreements in the past
Take my word for it, I am more familiar with the history and ethics of the area than you and have spent decades wandering those hills
Man up Chelsea and admit you are wrong. People will respect you for it. I haven't been to the wall since the bolts went in, but heard from others who have clipped them and continued up Lemming. You have taken a old route that required mandatory courage as a qualifier, and added a sport weiny variation start. That is a retro bolt in case you didn't see that clearly. Honest mistake. Just fix it. You should be inspired by being in Yosem, think that it would fly there?
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Sep 28, 2015 - 05:38pm PT
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WWBD ?
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the_dude
Mountain climber
anchorage, alaska
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Sep 28, 2015 - 05:44pm PT
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If all of you feel so strongly about it, then attach your real names to your opinions. There's no need for name calling, but if you really feel that strongly against Kelsey's actions, own it with your name, not some online persona. The common thought though is pretty simple and widespread across any climbing venue.
Don't retrobolt and don't put another bolted line close enough to an established line so that it changes the character of the original route.
Go climb Serenity Crack. That first 35 feet is more or less unprotectable (except by a flared .75 in a pinscar up high). Bolts have been added and chopped and the consensus is that they aren't needed. If people can't climb the route without taking the groundfall potential, they don't climb it.
Go climb in J-Tree, Taquitz/Suicide, The Needles. All of these have great cracks with sketchy or heady face climbing starts and groundfall potential.
-Clint Helander
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 28, 2015 - 08:01pm PT
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Bent Knee - Not really sure who you are and I don't remember meeting you. Doesn't mean I didn't but I don't remember it. I'm not sure where you say you talked with me about rebolts. I only use ASCA gear for rebolting so I'm not putting crap bolts in. Also I don't know what you mean about bolts on top of a boulder that didn't have them before. I've never put new bolts on top of any boulder and i've only replaced them on one (the nugget boulder and I only replaced a few of those). I guess my question would be to ask what makes you think you were qualified to judge what was misplaced or out of character when you only lived in AK for four years? I can continue to question the rest of what you said in your post but I don't actually think any of its true. Following me around for a year changing routes that you think I changed is super hypocritical. Please don't paraphrase me to make it sound like I intentionally retrobolted a route. If I did do it intentionally or otherwise then I'll admit to it. I've never shied away from admitting my mistakes.
cavemonkey - I don't agree that it is a retrobolt and neither did Roger. Yes you can traverse into the crack for the first piece of gear from the bolts on our climb but how far is that? From what I've seen you can clip the 3rd bolt on our climb and do a traverse across some 15ft or so to the first piece for Lemming Ranch. How many climbs can you do that on in the country? Even here in Yosemite. We didn't put it up as an alternate start but it can be used as one by running it out on unprotected ground. How many climbs have alternate starts? If we had created an alternate start to the climb with the permission of the FA then would it not have been accepted? This isn't really any different only it was completely unintentional. If you actually went to the cliff and climbed the Original Lemming Ranch then you would know that it doesn't follow our bolts. I know the picture is somewhat deceiving but it follows to the right. Do you go to a cliff where two routes or nearby one another and climb half of one then half of the other and call it good? No. You figure out where the start of the climb is and climb it that way. Sure you could use the other route but your cheating the route and yourself.
johnk - You've never admitted a single mistake you've ever made during all your bogus and irrational claims. Until you do, I won't respond to you again.
I realize saying all this isn't going to actually solve or help anything because this isn't a debate its a bashing and its not really meant to be anything else. I won't even have a discussion with those name calling or other childish comments. Arguing on the internet makes idiots of us all.
The Alaska climbing scene is tiring.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 28, 2015 - 08:12pm PT
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The Alaska climbing scene is tiring.
Sounds like you need a trip to visit ol' GDavis in Josh :)))
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Sep 28, 2015 - 08:13pm PT
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please tell me you'd provide boxin' attire GD.
maybe some pennies in the left hand-glovez
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 28, 2015 - 08:16pm PT
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Hey Gdavis! It was super cool meeting you the other day. A trip to Josh does sound fun but its hard to leave the valley! heh
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 28, 2015 - 08:29pm PT
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Right on bro was really cool meeting you as well!
No gloves I'll learn the soft art of Kung Fu ;D hehehehe
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 28, 2015 - 08:59pm PT
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"I guess my question would be to ask what makes you think you were qualified to judge what was misplaced or out of character when you only lived in AK for four years"?
That's as long or longer then you were here before you retro bolted Splat Button and Hocus Pocus...
" Please don't paraphrase me to make it sound like I intentionally retrobolted a route". Read the first page of this thread...
This isn't the first route you have knowingly retro bolted and then bragged online about.
The photos of Lemming Ranch make it pretty clear what's happened...
Further more your bs argument over who's local enough doesn't hold water... After all the guy you claimed gave you permission doesn't live in the state. Not that it matters. Oh and "permission from the FA party" means just that... Party being the key word, as opposed to an individual.
My "bogus and irrational claims"? Haha like what? Like your claims that I'm using multiple identies to harass you? Or claims like these are obvious retro bolts?
I mistakenly called Lemming Ranch Lemming Farm. My bad... Seems trivial in comparison to your repeated f*#k ups...
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Bent knee
Ice climber
VT
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Sep 29, 2015 - 07:26am PT
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IIRC either at the parking lot or the monolith we talked about Flakey and how you felt a bolt at the bottom would help. We talked about bolting and retro bolting for a bit when you put in the climb on the left of sunshine buttress as you enter the trees. No worries if you don't remember me or our conversations, if you didn't author 2 guidebooks or bolt/ re bolt I wouldn't remember you.
As to the boulder, it's one of the many traditionally bouldered near Boy Scout rocks. The hangers were removed by hand no wrench or tools. They were removed due to the crap job of the installer, perhaps it wasn't you but they were ASCA bolts.
"It makes this classic a more appetizing climb which will probably see a lot more traffic at this point." From the previous page, your words not mine.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Sep 29, 2015 - 08:16am PT
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Ill come out and pull all the bolts you like! super easy if ya have the right tools. Die Grinder for those tough ones..
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Sep 29, 2015 - 08:21am PT
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You got a cordless die grinder?
Hate to say it, but tempting to just lift the hangers and mangle the bolts as a reminder. I know its lame, but kinda pissed off.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 29, 2015 - 09:05am PT
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Just put a wrench of every bolt on Kelsey's mess and turn it to the right until the bolt snaps off... It's easy
Keep the hangers for your own projects
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couchmaster
climber
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Sep 29, 2015 - 09:40am PT
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John has it^^^. Then you tap the stud back down a tad, and put the grey epoxy putty over it. Bamm, gone/invisible. Healyje even has elevated it to an art form where he pusses a brass brush onto the epoxy to slightly rough up the surface and thus match the rock. The guy could have been an art restorer:-)
Dudes come back: no bolts - confusion ensues. Later they reinstall, so you rinse and repeat. Pretty soon, your point will be noticed and perhaps some personal reflection will occur on their end. No problemo and no boltos. You think yammering on the internet will do anything? NO is the correct answer. Not only is Johns solution the answer, but I suspect that via this method you will feel much better by taking action (instead of getting idiots like me to crack wise and get yer blood pressure up) as well. Email them and let them know 2 things. 1st) They pissed you off and they ain't getting the hangers back. Ever. They are your now. 2nd) If they do it again you will send the same email and add to your hanger pile.
Get cracking boyz. Don't screw up the rock - get it clean, let us know how it goes and bring some self satisfied photos of your work so we can all laugh and pat your backs (virtual mode of course).
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 29, 2015 - 10:00am PT
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It's the method I've used to clean up Kelsey's messes in the past. Works good. Doesn't damage the stone...
People had things like this to say about it.
"Whoever did the chopping did a fine job, as I couldn't see where any bolts had been placed, though I didn't put that much effort into the inspection".
Here's another...
"I recently went to upper Crack in the Woods and noticed the bolts are gone - which is a good thing. Thanks for pulling them cleanly (I could barely find the holes).
Just s few quotes from earlier in this thead...
Couchmaster - i always thought this went without saying but thanks for pointing it out...
"They pissed you off and they ain't getting the hangers back. Ever. They are yours now".
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 29, 2015 - 10:22am PT
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What's shocking to me is the diversity of the people who think that you f*#ked up placing these bolts...
Skinny, Andy, Clint, and I all have very different ideas and styles... Very different. However we all seem to agree that this is yet another one of your mistakes.
Most people learn from their mistakes but apparently you are not one of those people...
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Sep 29, 2015 - 04:24pm PT
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Chelsea
please tell me that you did not add a retro variation to Garveys tax man. You are bordering on ass whooping territory!!!!!
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Sep 29, 2015 - 04:45pm PT
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Zzzzzzz. Please go away. WE DON'T CARE.
Isn't there a Alaskacrappycrag.com that you can post to?
BTW Kelsey seems like a reasonable dude and that other dude seems like a complete d#@&%e.
JMO from the bleachers.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 29, 2015 - 07:47pm PT
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"I only use ASCA gear for rebolting so I'm not putting crap bolts in". This is from Kelsey today.
This is from the ASCA's homepage...
"The amount of protection on a climb is traditionally determined by the first to climb the route, and while climbing is a fairly anarchistic pursuit, the one revered tradition is that later climbers never add additional fixed protection to an existing route. In other words, the addition of bolts or pitons to existing routes is not tolerated unless the first person to do the route adds the bolts to their own route".
The ASCA supplied Kelsey with bolts after his intentional retro bolting of Hocus Pocus and Splat Button several years ago. Something about how he wouldn't do it again... We'll hear we are again. Go figure...
Is the ASCA still supplying him with bolts/hardware?
Is, or has, the ASCA supplied his partner Kristopher Klein with bolts/hardware?
Oddly enough the Alaska section on the ASCA site is down
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