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Fish_Products
Big Wall climber
FishProducts.com
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 16, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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How many people actually flag their ledge these days?
How many flagged ledges do you voyeurs see up on El Cap, as a percentage of total ledges seen?
And if you don't, why don't you flag your ledge?
Thanks, and do have a lovely day today and a fruitful and pleasant tomorrow.
See us on the web at:
http://www.FishProducts.com
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Dec 16, 2010 - 04:01pm PT
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I've done it for one pitch, so far. As a rule, no, though. It's easy to take down and easy to set up. Additionally, I spent a bunch of money on it, I want it to last.
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Buju
Big Wall climber
the range of light
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Dec 16, 2010 - 04:10pm PT
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Yeah...I dont want to beat mine up either.
Also, I am usually only doing routes were the belayer is not required to sit on a ledge for 5 hour leads.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Dec 16, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
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I flag my ledge all the time. It doesn't get beat up because its a FISH ledge with ballistic reinforcements on the sides coated in tool dip. I have no doubt that my ledge will outlast my climbing career based on how well Pete's ledge lasted. Also, if I totally FUBAR it, I have no doubt that FISH will fix it up for a reasonable price.
The only time I put it away is on the summit haul, which makes sense because I won't be using it again and its usually a bad haul.
Shoot, the thing even gets caught under roofs and hourglasses like you wouldn't believe then springs back into shape. Worst case scenario a corner pops out and I have to re-seat it. Pete's ledge got bent once, he just stomped on it for about 5 minutes and much to my surprise it was good as new when he was done.
For me, 45 minute sitting belay beats a 45 minute hanging belay. Multiply or divide by five and the answer doesn't change, I'd rather sit around in comfort. :)
Kate
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 16, 2010 - 05:32pm PT
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Tom Evans may be the main man for information on this subject, at least with respect to El Cap. Practices elsewhere may of course vary considerably.
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mastadon
Trad climber
quaking has-been
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Dec 16, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
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The modified lawn chair is a nice alternative for hanging belays….
Another use for The Chair
Still another
And last but not least…..
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Dec 16, 2010 - 06:11pm PT
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No flagging here. I'm amazed by how little it takes to bugger up a haul, and the last thing I need is a big old ledge to further bugger things up. But I'm a wall noob and don't climb that much.
My most recent ledge breaks both the side and end poles in half (equal lengths AFTER breaking in half), which makes setup pretty fast even though it is a monster (50"x84"). I had it setup in <5 minutes on a full on hanging belay while crammed against my partner. When he asked what he could do to help I told him "Defend yourself!" as Chrome Moly twirled in the darkness. Biggest problem is that it's easy to accidentally pass the bundle through a strap leading to cluster (I think I'll add quicklinks on the corners for the next trip). And I need a proper haul bag, it's crammed in a single ledge bag right now, making stowage the longest step.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Dec 16, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
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Nope, I don't flag ledges. Tried it once.
I'd rather get up five minutes earlier and put it away and take care of it.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2010 - 07:39pm PT
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I've always just flagged it. Takes 2 seconds to do.
Haul and 2 seconds set back up and lay down and then belay.
Speed is good .....
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Prod
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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Flagger, I'm with Kate, I hate hanging belays. I figure if I fuk it up I'll buy another one from Fish Products. I think I'll go with a double next time though.
Prod.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Dec 16, 2010 - 08:27pm PT
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If it is steep (which most of my big wall ascents were) I always flag.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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Dec 16, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
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Flag it, baby.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Dec 16, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
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Speaking of FLAGGED, did my order from Sooze get flagged as it passed yer desk?
Merry Christmas to the ENTIRE staff at Fish Products and continue with the great job you ALL do there! By the way are you guys needin' any work done on your aches and pains these days? Just let me know and I'll be by to check in on ya!
Peace
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Dec 16, 2010 - 09:45pm PT
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Thanks, and do have a lovely day today and a fruitful and pleasant tomorrow.
Obviously the staff in the Market Research department over at Fish Products Inc. is just messin with us.
If both climbers have ledges, do you still just flag one?
Anyone ever flagged 2?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 16, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
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My sub ledge got confiscated out back in C loop WBITD.
But I could see flagging my p-ledge; prolly go wit da international theme.
Jamaican flag, Austrian flag, Italian for sure ... American of course.
-----------------------------------------------------------
***Sent from my Blackberry, whils't sitting out the weather in a Russian prison.
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Gagner
climber
Boulder
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Dec 16, 2010 - 10:33pm PT
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Sometimes, but as Mark said above, only on the occasional pitch, or if say for example the weather is dicey and I want to be able to get it in quick - Lovelace and I flagged the ledge the whole time when in Baffin Island because we, as Wener said, wanted to lay down and belay, and of course have shelter from the weather.
Paul
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Dec 16, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
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no way man!
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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Dec 18, 2010 - 10:38am PT
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Actually, I rarely flag mine anymore, it's a single. I used to have an A5 double, which was flagged a lot. It was just more annoying to set up & break down. That is a moot point with my sweet single.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
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Just see how simple it is as coz explains the method above.
If one can't figure out a simple thing like this one is definitely and idiot.
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Dec 20, 2010 - 07:35pm PT
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Once again Coz shows how brilliant and nice he is. NOT!!
We used a black single and a red double on the FA of the Shaft, or incorrectly known as the free attempt of the Muir. We flagged, hauled, thrash the thing for 54 days. We used it in the Yukon for 20 days. And probably about another 100 days on other walls.
They are both still bomber, so you sissy boys worried about hurting your Fish ledge, have nothing too worry about. Put away you man purses and ear rings and sack up and flag with pride.
It's solid, bomber and made in the USA, instead of China by some corporate monster Posing as a cool liberal climbing company. ; )
Scott Cosgrove,
The wall has to be overhanging, duh.
Here's the big trick, what for it....... clip the top and bottom of your ledge to the biggest haul bag. Put a little tie off on both sides and party on.
Leaving a ledge un-flagged is just well.... how do you say, "not so smart????"
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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Dec 20, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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I once flagged my ledge while I was in it. Then I wasn't in it.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 20, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
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DON'T BUY A FISH LEDGE!
It is a colossal piece of junk. My FISH ledge "only" lasted 410 nights on El Cap, before I had to get a new one from Russ, with a whole bunch of superb modifications, for a really great price.
During those 410 nights, I climbed 40 different El Cap routes, and what do El Cap routes average, 20 pitches each? I flagged virtually every one of those pitches, except maybe some of the summit pitches. So what's that - 800 or so pitches flagged? I climbed a few Grade V's as well in addition. So nearly a thousand pitches? Unfortunately this also means I had to climb nearly a thousand pitches, for climbing is a necessary encumbrance in order to reach the bitchin'est campsites.
When I go Big Wall Camping, I set up my FISH ledge at the base, flag it the entire wall, and take it down at the top. Any fool can be uncomfortable, and I only look stupid. If you know what you're doing, and it ain't hard to learn, you can have your ledge flagged in seconds, and unflagged in seconds. Especially when using the Super Duper Trick of Kate's, which she can explain to you, because it's her killer idea, and makes flagging - and setting up your campsite - a breeze.
Caveat: Be careful when clipping the ledge onto or off of the haul line in heavy winds, or you can get your chops wrecked. Ask Kate and Handsome Mike about that.
Plus I concur with every word of Kate's post above, so be sure to go back a page and read it.
So don't buy a FISH ledge, because you will never be able to get rid of the thing. It will last you pretty much forever. You can abuse it, you can tweak it under roofs, it will pop around. If a tube bends, you can stand on it [on a rock ledge] to straighten it pretty much as good as new. I did that on Timbuktu Towers to the amazement of Kate, as she describes above. Note that not flagging your ledge on really sick hauls will make tweaking your ledge less likely. But it's a FISH, so it doesn't matter.
Russ has added a couple really great features on my new ledge. The first is as Kate describes, bomber wraps around the three sides that rub and get abraded during flagging. Buy yourself a can of Plasti-Dip and reinforce these bits first. Secondly, he made a daisy along the bottom of the outside of the ledge - a brilliant idea for hanging stuff when you're camping, to supplement the other daisies on the six straps. I use my FISH double for solo bivying, and Russ left off the shark fins for me because he knows this.
Note to Russ - you really don't need the daisy on the ends of the ledge, only on the outside bit.
Now, my only complaint is that the beer cozy he made for me is a bit too large in diameter. I think what it needs to be is made to fit a regular tall beer can or regular diameter coffee cup, and that a slot needs to be cut into it to accomodate the handle of the coffee cup, depending of course on whether it is before or after Changeover Time.
Cheers and beers,
Pete
P.S. I don't understand what MTucker means above - please explain
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Dec 20, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
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lol!
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Kristoffer
climber
San Diego, California
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Dec 21, 2010 - 12:15am PT
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i just sleep hanging in my harness...
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NeeDlzdos
Big Wall climber
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Dec 21, 2010 - 01:18am PT
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I'll flag everything unless it's a slab or funky haul.
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Pass the Chongo, Chongo
Social climber
in cave
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Dec 21, 2010 - 02:12am PT
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HEY THERE SAY.... I ONLY FLAG!
XOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXO
choNGO!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 21, 2010 - 09:48am PT
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Fast climbers might break their ledges down, but slow goers find the ledge to be a great belay stance. If you flag the ledge, you always have a place to stack the rope, sort gear, fall asleep at the belay . .. . .
RUSS: More than once, I've seen your double ledge, flagged, do a pretzel/tweak twist against an edge, go long tube against long tube, and then suddenly POP!, get free, and then go back to normal.
Cro-moly tubing is the way to go. Like spring steel, it is impossible to dent, damage, or defile.
I'd like to say that aluminum tubing is for fags, but that's not PC.
My ledge has carbon fiber tubes. To be as robust as a FISH double, I had to reinforce the ends of the tubes. I used epoxy and stainless steel tubing, about three inches long. I put an inside and and outside tube at each corner. My ledge has a two outside slider couplings at the mid span.
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Dec 21, 2010 - 11:34am PT
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I flag it when the pitches for the day allow it. Way easy, watch the wind, and soooooo comfy to stretch out at the belay. Only remeber hanging up once, waited (well needed cardio break), the wind changed and it was free once more. I do recall a small 20 minute nap when the wind died and the sun shone in May, just don't tell Oli, he was on his hardest aid lead yet. Fly that puppy like your proud to own a Fish ledge.
Discalimer, no all pitches allow it, Zion is a bit abrasive.
Burly Bob
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Feb 12, 2011 - 12:21am PT
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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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Feb 12, 2011 - 01:36am PT
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Cha!!
Flagging is SOOO yesterday. I use the most kick ass cOmfortable Parke Design Hammock ever. Don't believe me, ask Mark Hudon, he has one, it's the best ever.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Feb 12, 2011 - 02:12am PT
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Forrest hammocks work pretty good too.
Nothing better than a recliner at the belay.
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Gabe
climber
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Feb 12, 2011 - 02:29am PT
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Pack it away for safe keeping! You need that gear in working condition or it's an anchor. Smiles.
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namascar
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Feb 12, 2011 - 02:36am PT
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I noticed that I loose 10 lb if I don´t flag the ledge but I mantain my weight if I flag it. I think the difference is due to the crucifixion-style effort involved while at hanging belays (belay sits just won´t do). I am there for the fun, so I flag.
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hollyclimber
Big Wall climber
Yosemite, CA
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May 29, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
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Hi Russ-
Saw this question on your blog today and came here to answer. I don't flag my ledge. One reason is I use a BD unfoldy ledge, and it gets really cranky when flagged. The strap configurations are really important and its a pain if they get crossed.
I wouldn't flag most likely with another ledge either. I have climbed with someone who flags their ledge. Sure its nice to sit on it when belaying. But, I bring a nice belay seat. I find that having to deal with the ledge at the belay is just one more slow down. I like to go fast. I have the anchor broken down except the one biner that is holding the bags and have myself totally ready to jug before the haul starts. I found the ledge to be annoying and in the way at these last 10 min of the pitch. Just one more thing to be attending to at the time when you have a lot to be attending to. The ledge is banging around, potentially hitting you in the head as it is resting on top of your bag and sticking up 5 feet. Maybe even it is in the way for you to get on your jugs until the haul starts. Thats a serious delay in my book. Also, that means you have less time to access the bag, since accessing the bag is not the last thing you do, but the next to last thing.
Then, I found the ledge to be in the way when the bag first comes up for the dock (like to dock my bag as high as I can for easy access) and when my partner and I were at the belay together. I don't mind at all the routine of putting away the ledge. My partner and I put away everything together before we climb so we are packed up and ready to go for the days business. Finally, I would say there is zero risk of me dropping my ledge during the day when I don't flag it. I don't need an extra chance to pitch my ledge off El Cap. Been on a climb where the ledge got pitched on Day One (not due to flagging) - pretty grim up the Trip for 3 days after that.
Maybe the ledge doesn't get "damaged" from being flagged, but I am sure that it gets stuck on some hauls and causes small hassles. Just what I don't need when I want to go fast. So, after flagging my ledge on one pitch and doing one full El Cap route with a flagged ledge, I was not convinced that it was better than my method of putting everything away. If you save 10 min a pitch by not fussing around with the ledge (which is pretty modest-bet most flaggers spend more than 10 min per pitch messing with it overall), that might be the 40 min you need to do 5 pitches today instead of 4. I would rather setup my ledge in the dark and get in the extra pitch if I want it.
Also, you specifically asked what most climbers do. Most parties on El Cap do not flag. It is pretty rare. I am confident that if we had stats they would show this to be overwhelmingly true. But, what the person who is climbing El Cap for his or her first time (which is the case for most people up there) is doing is probably not that relevant. Doesn't mean its the best choice. Better to find out what people who climb El Cap more than a couple of times do the most and that is hard to be sure on.
But if people like the features marketed for flagging, you got to go for it right?!! To me a flagged ledge is part of a junk show, and I try to run a very small tidy show if possible.
HB
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mctwisted
Social climber
superslacker city
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May 29, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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May 29, 2011 - 09:20pm PT
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If both climbers have ledges, do you still just flag one?
Anyone ever flagged 2?
Yes.
If you have two pigs, you flag both ledges.
The second ledge becomes a - wait for it - SUN SHADE.
The only time I didn't flag my ledge was when I was *reviewing* a Metolious with aluminum tubes. That sort of cubicle-designed product belongs in the storage bag, in the garage, at all times. And not on a Big Wall.
Flag the FISH.
Offload the rest on eBay to n00bs.
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