Discussion Topic |
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 15, 2005 - 04:37pm PT
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Edit as you vote.
Yes 1
No 0
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Russ Walling
Social climber
NOT FOR LOAN™ CC3
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Dec 15, 2005 - 04:43pm PT
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Who is Skinner?? Where are the bolts??
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estwing
Trad climber
montreal
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Dec 15, 2005 - 04:44pm PT
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Hi Juan,
As someone who will likely never climb wet denim, why should I care if their are bolts on it? Will you ever climb it? If you do will it be free? I bet you would clip those bolts even if you where aiding the route. Why bother taking them out, just prove how hard you really are by skipping them. Then you can say "I am bolder than Mr. Skinner" (though I can't free 5.13).
yes 1
no 1
who really gives a sh*t anyway?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2005 - 04:46pm PT
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Please just vote, we really do not need the dumbass comments!
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Dec 15, 2005 - 04:47pm PT
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Yes 2
No 1
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crotch
climber
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Dec 15, 2005 - 04:47pm PT
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2005 - 04:48pm PT
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You f*#king children!
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Oregon Boy
Trad climber
OR
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Dec 15, 2005 - 04:49pm PT
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no.
Yes 2
No 2
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Bilbo
Trad climber
Truckee
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Dec 15, 2005 - 04:53pm PT
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Juan, You really should let the Diebold voting machines do the counting, run by coiler.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2005 - 04:54pm PT
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Yes 984
No 2
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2005 - 05:02pm PT
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It could be very serious, we have a record of the vote, and the tabulation?
How is it different than any voting, most people do not spend hours weighing the facts!
If the name Skinner comes up I vote chop!
JDF
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426
Sport climber
Roun' Chatt
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Dec 15, 2005 - 05:09pm PT
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Bilbo
Trad climber
Truckee
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Dec 15, 2005 - 05:26pm PT
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I just re-read Coiler's original post;
He plans to climb it soon and CHOP all 15 bolts, no need for a vote or an opinion.
He's keeping the valley BOLD.
This is an issue for the locals, everyone else needs to mind there own buisness. There are plenty of places to bolt-up sh#t, the Valley is not one of them.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 15, 2005 - 05:33pm PT
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Yes.
Yes - 3
No - 2
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pc
climber
Eastside
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Dec 15, 2005 - 05:38pm PT
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Do Canadians get to vote?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 15, 2005 - 05:42pm PT
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Bilbo says Coiler's going to chop all 15 bolts but is that true?
Supposedly only 5 bolts are near the original route, the rest on free variations, and we hear only 2 are within actual reach of the aid climbing. So while yur all votin, you might distinguish which bolts derserve to be chopped and why. Is it ethical to Rap Chop and why?
Keep in mind that Todd had the Fa's permission and that Ammon himself said that only one bolt was within easy reach of the original route. The bolt that would keep a free climber from decking on Ahwahnee ledge.
What Coilers decides to do or not do is differnent (maybe) from what the community decides. Just cause bolts come out doesn't mean they stay out unless we have some kind of meeting of the minds.
Peace
karl
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Dec 15, 2005 - 05:44pm PT
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This reminds me of some advice a friend gave me after I had a run in with an a-hole surfer once at a total beginner area. The advice - "the a-hole was some old guy who used to be good, but is now past his time". Same deal here. WDD was once scary stuff. It's relatively easy now (I did the route 7 years ago). Sounds like it's gone free. The guy who's gonna chop it probably can't free it. He probably once climbed some hard stuff, but probably not any more. Can he repeat Skinner's route on free? Can he free something else and set a better standard?
Why free WDD? I don't know - there's better stuff to free out there. Why chop it? Is there a lack of A3/A4 in the Valley? Ego vs. Ego.
Be the better person and don't go chopping. It only makes a mess on the cliff and doesn't help the climbing community.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 15, 2005 - 05:48pm PT
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This Hoser voted in the last US election. Clever, eh?
I guess you Merricans don't know how to count, huh?
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pc
climber
Eastside
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Dec 15, 2005 - 05:51pm PT
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Prolly 'cause that "diebold" thing had a special exemption for W voting hosers, eh?
Me too, eh. But not the W part.
Perhaps we just cancelled each other out. WTF.
;)
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Bilbo
Trad climber
Truckee
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Dec 15, 2005 - 05:58pm PT
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Karl, I just repeated his original post.
It's NOT about;
Bolts, freeclimbing, aid climbing, sportclimbing ect...
Its about keeping Yosemite Valley walls BOLD! His words, but I agree.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Dec 15, 2005 - 06:13pm PT
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Bold? Give me a break. WDD is a mid-level aid route. Sure, it's got the potential for serious injury/death on P7. But it's not the cutting edge of aid, or anywhere close to it.
"Bold" is about doing something that nobody else has that's way out there. Repeating WDD for the 17,000th time is NOT bold (bolts or not). Freeing WDD with 3 bolts instead of 7 is bold. Doing a new totally freaky route on the Tower would be bold. Can you do that?
Someone who is chopping bolts on a mid level aid route that they've done before is hardly bold - only shows that someone has to stroke their own ego.
And for the record, free trumps aid. If the free route is totally contrived, you'd better have a good reason for pulling bolts. Saying the original was "bold" (and in the 80's it was), only shows the era you're still in.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Dec 15, 2005 - 06:23pm PT
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And I might was well add this. Skinner is a lamer for going up and making a big stink on a wall that cannot go free from the ground. If you're gonna free, do the job right.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2005 - 06:25pm PT
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That's the history of Skinner. Did this not all start with some aid line - Stigma?
Juanito
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Dec 15, 2005 - 06:28pm PT
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having had climbed the route in question (you should NOT get a vote if you haven't climbed the route IMHO) ..
YES
Yes- 4
No - 2
.. at least chop the ones that are within reach of the aid route.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Dec 15, 2005 - 06:44pm PT
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And I have climbed WDD!
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426
Sport climber
Another slopey nightmare, GA
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Dec 15, 2005 - 06:51pm PT
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I think you refer to"Cowboyography" (aka Brokeback Mountain) 13d, Hueco.
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elemental
Gym climber
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Dec 15, 2005 - 07:06pm PT
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Have the new bolts on the Free Dihedral Wall been removed?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2005 - 07:12pm PT
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Is it not simple to fix the problem by adopting the rule that no new bolt placed within reach of aid line?
?????
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Dec 15, 2005 - 10:04pm PT
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At the risk of real blasphemy here. I do not consider Yosemite to qualify as a crag of locals. It is a world class destination, and most of any locals have always been transient. And they, for the most part, all came there from somewhere distant.
For me anyway, local crags would be the three star and lower type crags in Rock and Road. Maybe the crags would be open to debate...
I would say no, even though I do not ever expect to be there. But WTFDIK?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2005 - 02:05am PT
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When did all this nonsense begin in the valley. Was it the Muir?
So if I want to free an aid line its okay to add bolts?
What is the history of this?
Juan
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NinjaChimp
climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 16, 2005 - 06:33am PT
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yes-4
no-3
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426
Sport climber
Another slopey nightmare, GA
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Dec 16, 2005 - 11:07am PT
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If you want to start in on "Da Muir" then start complaining to Robbins (who added a bolt at the crux on the 2nd ascent).
(Not that I didn't clip it, I was rather relieved to loop that thing-comes right before the belay on C3+ or so....)
Also, the crux belays on Muir weren't bolted by Cos and the General, they veered left onto the Shield to finish the potential FFA. There was a whole lotta schwag up there when we did it, but I've heard ASCA and others put in some bombs.
From what I saw, the free var. that was bolted goes a little below the bolt ladder (3d into Nose section) and then follows some pitches off the Muir during the middle, crossing then finishing left.
For what it's worth...
"At the risk of real blasphemy here. I do not consider Yosemite to qualify as a crag of locals."
I'll blaspheme too, I agree with ya...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Dec 16, 2005 - 11:16am PT
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The chopping issue started with Robbins on the "Dawn Wall" ...No??
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 16, 2005 - 11:17am PT
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Make a real statement and chop all the bolts on the route, even
at the belays and the first pitches. Then, chisel hook placements
so the thing can be clean aided. Who cares what it looks like as long as we can play our games.
:- k
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Huge Balls
Big Wall climber
Darkside of the Moon
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Dec 16, 2005 - 01:18pm PT
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Some of you have lost context of the situation. In order for Turd Skimmer to so-call free climb this route, he had to add the protection of bolts for his security and well being. Even if there are only a couple next to the existing route, why not use the pro that the aid climbers have to use?
Poor form Turd Skimmer, Poor form
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2005 - 01:42pm PT
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Huge Balls,
I thought that was the rule. One had to use existing pro?
Have the rules changed?
Juan
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 16, 2005 - 01:49pm PT
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"Have the rules changed?"
Depends on who you talk to...
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Bilbo
Trad climber
Truckee
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Dec 16, 2005 - 01:58pm PT
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It really comes down to this quote from Skinner;
"I have never considered the first-ascentionists to be the owners of the route"-TS
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Tuan DeLusion
Social climber
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Dec 16, 2005 - 02:02pm PT
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Leave the bolts alone. Remove Juan's loose screws.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 16, 2005 - 02:04pm PT
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Better sharpen your tools if you're going to chop all the bolts that have been added to aid routes to make them go free. Why single out WDD here?
From my perspective, it's a pretty lame argument. If the route had zero bolts to begin with, and a free-climber added bolts, then you'd have my sympathy. But a route that starts with a 200' bolt ladder? Come on, what game are you trying to play.
:- k
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2005 - 02:15pm PT
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Can you provide a list of some of the routes that this practice has occurred on. I not interested in chopping, just the history.
Muir - the 2 pitches above grey?
WDD
Juanito
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Victorville, CA
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Dec 16, 2005 - 02:48pm PT
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Royal later expressed regret for having chopped Harding's bolts.
Wouldn't true ethics police discuss chopping the bolter, not just the bolts?
As much as I don't like the guy, or wouldn't trust him, the bolts are there, if they are bad, wrong, stupid, unethical or named after each of Tookie's apprentices, let 'em be, they stand as witness to him who put them in, time will tell.
yes ethicspolice
No noegoinvested
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Dec 16, 2005 - 02:49pm PT
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Chopping bolts so that you can hammer in a copper head? Totally bold.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 16, 2005 - 08:12pm PT
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Free climbing bolts added to existing aid routes? I'm no expert
here, but one obvious one is the Nose. Some new bolts recently
discussed here, and how about that traverse? Those bolts have
been there for a while and nobody's talking about wanting to chop
those. Another, Zodiac.
Variations on Salathe?
The hood orniment?
NA?
Like I said, I'm no expert, but I do know they exist.
People think they can get to Skinner by chopping his bolts.
To me it sounds like it's a personal war.
:- k
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Dec 16, 2005 - 08:48pm PT
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k-man, you're right on. It's some kind of stupid personal deal. I'd hate to see the cliff get all f'd up by people bolting/chopping/replacing/re-chopping bolts.
The whole thing is rather stupid - the route has an aid ladder leading up to it. Nobody is going to return to repeat the thing on free. The original route required hammering and the current route still sees hammering. And someone is chopping a route so that they can aid it (why not just not clip the bolts if they're so bold??)!
Eh, if they are going to chop it, I might as well go up and swipe the hangers before they do.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 16, 2005 - 09:24pm PT
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What makes you think no one will make a free repeat?
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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Dec 16, 2005 - 09:40pm PT
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I don't care about Skinner. For me it is not about some personal grudge. Don't know him, don't care.
What it is about, is this: Some climbers seem to KNOW that their vision of higher forms and climbing's future permits them to add bolts to an existing route. They KNOW that it is a righteous act. They know it the way Jody KNOWS that everyone on SuperTopo, except him, is going burn in hell in a lake of fire for all eternity. Hewett and Skinner KNOW that they can climb that line better than it was originally done, problem is they don't have a time machine.
When an aid climber adds a bolt to a belay or places a chicken rivet, it is wrong. He probably knows it's wrong, and most of us, hopefully, know it is wrong. But the chicken bolts were put in for an entirely different reason than Todd and Jim's. The snail eyed aid climber put them in out of weakness, to his shame, and few will argue their eventual removal. While they continue to go unchopped they are not as much of a threat to the FA rule as Hewett and Skinner's bolts.
The "few bolts" that are added in the name of a "higher form" FFA are the foot in the door. If we say it is okay for Todd to do this, we are saying it is okay for anyone. We will also be saying not just that it is okay to add bolts for a FFA, but it is okay to "re-do" any FA, aid or free. Once this is more acceptable we'll see more recycled aid routes where as much as possible all vestiges of the original "lower form" aid route will be erased. In its place will be the perfected route--the "higher form" route, with plenty of bolts, epoxy reinforced holds, and properly situated belays. Next of course it will be the free climbs that someone just KNOWS he or she could FA much better.
Todd and Jim apparently view aid climbing as a dead language. A soon to be "historical curiosity." So they have no qualms about writing over the text in those old books. Maybe, eventually, you can just go out and erase all the words and write your own higher form. Erase the previous FAs from the backs of guide books, they never existed.
The FA rule is arbitrary, but it works. It saves us from legions of climbers, badass and gumbie alike, going out to "perfect" their favorite routes.
Don't let that happen. Maintain the routes. Replace old bolts. Don't add bolts. Chop and patch non-original bolts.
--Scott
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 16, 2005 - 09:42pm PT
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Everybody likes the smell of their own farts.
But having said that, the free climbers say it's a quality line. The Westie face variation has seen quite a few repeats already by relative mortals. I don't know how much harder WDD is but nobody expected the Salathe to see the traffic that it gets now. I'm sure somebody will repeat it. The guy who put up the 13r on the Falls wall already said he thought it would be "fun to try."
Now the question of boldness is interesting. Sure, some sport dclimbs dumb down boldness, but my understanding is that Todd was taking 30 foot whippers up there. Freeclimbing a route like that seems pretty bold to me.
Now that one bolt above Ahwahnee, the one that keeps you from cratering into the ledge. Does that bolt reduce the boldness? It sure does for the aid climbers who clip it. On the other hand, there are tons of aid climbers who would only go up there if they didn't think they were facing a death fall if somebody else's copperheads blew out on them. That's their limit of boldness. So if the route still has technical aid on it, they might push their boldness to do the route if that one nagging danger was lessened.
Which is kind of a BS danger to chop bolts and deny free climbers a fair shot at the route in order to maintain. All that trouble to keep a fall on fixed gear a potential death fall.
This ain't just talk either. Somebody else has already posted that the free bolt kept somebody from hitting Ahwahnee after a long fall. Personally, yeah, climbing is dangerous, but I wouldn't want somebody elses trip to the iron lung on my chopping conscious.
Peace
Karl
Edit:
Scott's version of the FA rule isn't the one that climbers have been going on for a long time.
Skinner consulted the FA party about the bolts, he got the OK. Scott might say the FA doesn't have the rights to OK more bolts, but the game has been played differently for a long time. First Ascenders have OKed bolts on plenty of climbs.
Also, Minerals added a couple bolts to WDD himself at a "better belay" He nobly fessed up to it here and the opinion was divided about whether the original belay should be chopped or Minerals "better" belay. It just ain't so black and white.
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mtwoodsonguide
Big Wall climber
San Diego
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Dec 16, 2005 - 10:40pm PT
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Why didn't you chop them before he sent, that would have been way better. How long have those bolts been there. 2 3 years.
What about the Dihedral Wall, I'm sure he didn't get input from the fa of that one. The bolt ladder around A3 slime make the crux A0. Been like 3 years at least.
What does would Jim Bridwell think. He's still the man in my opinion.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Dec 16, 2005 - 10:40pm PT
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This is really funny sh#t.
One only has to look at "The Shield" to see how aid climbing has done it's fair share of "damage" to El Cap.
I would bet that more "holes" have been put in on original routes (after the FA) on El Cap" by aid climbers than free climbers.
Any takers???
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dougs510
Trad climber
Nashville, TN.
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Dec 16, 2005 - 11:36pm PT
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Dude,
Todd is so far out of your league. If you want to chop, chop away.
HELL YES. Remove them. Then I'd like you to free LT......... BawwwwHawwwww. LT is a SOB is a bitch to aid, much less free.
Somehow, I think your a troll stirring the pot. So, I'm not politically correct and your goofy..... by the way, have you done LT before?
Live Big, talk little.
D.
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poop_tube
Trad climber
Irvine, CA
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Dec 17, 2005 - 12:24am PT
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I EAT BOLTS FOR BREAKFAST, AAAAAARGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH
I BURY DOZ KOCKAROACHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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poop_tube
Trad climber
Irvine, CA
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Dec 17, 2005 - 12:26am PT
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I TONY MONTANAAAAAAAAA
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poop_tube
Trad climber
Irvine, CA
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Dec 17, 2005 - 12:27am PT
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WADDAA YOU KNOW
BUBBLE HEAD????
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 17, 2005 - 01:43am PT
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So, you're saying that you sent and chopped the bolts???
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poop_tube
Trad climber
Irvine, CA
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Dec 17, 2005 - 06:28am PT
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noooo
man
i havent been up there yet]]]
chppin or no chppin
peace\
kia
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poop_tube
Trad climber
Irvine, CA
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Dec 17, 2005 - 06:39am PT
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respect
including Todd
cuz dat sh#t must be hard
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poop_tube
Trad climber
Irvine, CA
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Dec 17, 2005 - 06:54am PT
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i dunno, if you dont want to clip them, then dont, much love to all ya all
lets just climb!
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Dec 19, 2005 - 03:26pm PT
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Re: why bother w/ second free ascent -
Seems like a bit of slog to get all the way to Awahnee ledge to then start free climbing. That's all. But if people say the climbing is all that, then perhaps I'm wrong...
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Dec 20, 2005 - 02:48am PT
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Leave the bolts.
Put red duct tape next to the new ones.
Add a tag at the base that rates the variation with aretes and cracks off.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 20, 2005 - 11:08am PT
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People stream into Yo for the easy access to unparalleled Greade V and VI aid routes. But the trend is now moving towards freeing the long ones. Look at the frequency that walls are getting free attempts. C.Mac stated that during his ascent with Caldwell, there were more free climbers on the Stone than those in aiders. Groundbreaking was Astroman a few years ago. These days you find lines at the base.
Now that WDD has been established as a free climb (regardless of the style of the ascent), it's on a small list of long, hard routes. Sure you can chop the bolts and turn it back into an aid line. But I wouldn't be surprised to see the bolts reappear in a few years as more folks whet their appetite for the Grade V and IV testpieces.
One old ethic says that once a route goes free, you stop nailing it. Like someone alluded to above, "Chop a free bolt so you can hammer a copperhead?" I guess it's like trying to play checkers and chess on the same board.
:- k
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Calif
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Dec 20, 2005 - 12:05pm PT
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I vote with the chopping/removal camp. I did WDD in May for the 2nd time and the bolts were way too close to the regular route. There was a new belay just to the right of the regular belay after WDD's crux pitch and bolts in other sections near cracks that could take traditional gear. These additional bolts are an eyesore and a desecration to a fine route that had so few bolts on it's original pitches that they could be counted on the fingers of one hand(except for the initial section up to Ahwahnee on WFLT est by Harding).
Coiler, if you want help in removing these offensive bolts, let me know & I'll help.
Levy
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hardman
Trad climber
the valley
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Dec 20, 2005 - 01:39pm PT
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LMAO at poop tube reply to Bob d
Say Hello to my little friend :)
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Dec 20, 2005 - 01:54pm PT
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" There was a new belay just to the right of the regular belay after WDD's crux pitch and bolts in other sections near cracks that could take traditional gear " -
Wouldn't that be considered bullshit just about anywhere??
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2005 - 01:55pm PT
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Aid climbers are dying just like those dinosaurs, free climbing is going to knock you socks off! Aid climbers are the biggest cheaters on the rock.
Hehehe, just ask Bachar .....
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Victorville, CA
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Dec 20, 2005 - 03:12pm PT
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If the decision is made via poll, wait ten years and see what the opinion is.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Dec 20, 2005 - 03:34pm PT
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Tell you what. You go chop the bolts, and I'll go and clean all those fixed heads.
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Dec 20, 2005 - 07:47pm PT
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Now that sounds fair.
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