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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 20, 2010 - 06:34pm PT
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If he ran into route-finding problems, would we conclude that he didn't know whether he was coming or Goering?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Oct 20, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
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Well, we know he wasn't a BASE jumper, 'cause when he flew in W.W. I, they didn't fly with parachutes.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 20, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
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Yeah, he was actually an ace that flew with the Red Baron.
Between clothing, waistline, and apparent technical difficulty I'd guess that photo to be the '20s.
The Nazi party was likely little more than loud minority at the time.
He was smart enough to immediately realize that when he saw P-51s over Berlin it was over.
Who thinks the guard knowingly retrieved the poison?
(I had a partner who was in the Hitler Youth. They are into fitness.)
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 20, 2010 - 08:30pm PT
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In the final instance, Hermann Goering decided to avoid the rope.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 20, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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the photo is from after the nazi rise to power. der watzmann is the big peak that looms over berchtesgaden and hitler's mountain retreat.
if yr interested in the actual date and a brief account of goerring's outing, it gets a brief mention in zebhauser's alpinismus im hitlerstaat.
lots of nazis were climbers, heinrich harrer just one of the best known.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 20, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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I think what Gene is saying is Goering did it unroped.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 20, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
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Following on from Ron's comment, it is interesting that of the main leaders during World War II, Hitler was one of the few who served during all of World War I, and was decorated twice for bravery. Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin did not serve, although Churchill had something of a military career in the late 19th century. Likewise Goering, who served with distinction. He also was the most articulate in defending himself and the Nazi regime at Nuremberg, pointing out that the war crimes and crimes against humanity with which they were charged were not crimes under international law when the war broke out, and that the allies had far from clean hands when it came to war crimes. He was found guilty anyway.
On a lesser of evils argument, the allies clearly were ahead - such crimes as they committed (area bombing of civilians is the one most argued about) were with the purpose of ending the war, not of committing the crime.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 20, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
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Actually, towards the end of WWI the German pilots were issued parachutes. Ernst Udet, for instance, was saved by a parachute. Udet went on to later spot the body of Sedlmayer or Mehringer when he flew to within a few feet of the Eiger Mordwand.
Artillery balloon spotters had been provided parachutes all through the war and many were saved by chutes. For one, the British refused to issue parachutes because they thought the pilots would be too quick to jump from their planes.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Oct 20, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
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"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on
a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of
it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people
don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in
Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to
drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger. It works the same in any country."
Hermann Goering
Nuremberg Diary (Farrar, Straus & Co 1947), by Gustave Gilbert (an Allied appointed psychologist), who visited daily with Goering and his cronies in their cells, afterwards making notes and ultimately writing the book about these conversations.
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sheepdog
Trad climber
just over the hill
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Oct 20, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
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Don't have a bio on hand, but I believe Churchill spent time on the western front (eventually rising to Colonel) after his losing his place in the cabinet over the Dardanelles-Gallipoli failure.
Interesting quote attributed to him circa 1936:
"America should have minded her own business and stayed out of the World War. If you hadn't entered the war the Allies would have made peace with Germany in the Spring of 1917. Had we made peace then there would have been no collapse in Russia followed by Communism, no breakdown in Italy followed by Fascism, and Germany would not have signed the Versailles Treaty, which has enthroned Nazism in Germany. If America had stayed out of the war, all these 'isms' wouldn't today be sweeping the continent of Europe and breaking down parliamentary government - and if England had made peace early in 1917, it would have saved over one million British, French, American, and other lives."
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Oct 21, 2010 - 12:20am PT
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Anybody remember who played the nazi climber in this one?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Oct 21, 2010 - 12:33am PT
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Nazi names questioned on Swedish crag:
Swedish historian and sport climber Cordelia Hess discovered that several of the names used for the crag in Gåseborg bore names with a Nazi theme such as "3rd Reich", "Swastika" and "Himmler", according to a report in the Dagens Nyheter daily.
"I was there with my friends and doing a bit of climbing, and I thought it felt rather unpleasant to climb through the 'Crematorium' or say that 'now I am going to do Kristallnacht'," Hess told the newspaper.
Cordelia Hess argued to the newspaper that the names trivialise the suffering of the Jews during the Holocaust.
But the names are set to stay in place for the time being as it is accepted climbing praxis for the first climbers who tackle and conquer a route to be given the right to name it.
"It is up to the first climber who makes it to name a route," Stockholm climber Erik Djerf told The Local on Thursday. "It is thus that climber, or perhaps the publisher of a local climbing guidebook, who would then be able to change it".
Djerf told The Local that while there is no formal body that approves or rejects names of climbing routes, sites are registered by the Swedish Climbing Association for reasons concerning the public right of access (allemansrätten) and nature conservation.
"There is no board or committee that gives the yay or nay, but perhaps if the names would cause a great deal of offence...The names are in any case often chosen to be deliberately provocative," he said.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 21, 2010 - 12:47am PT
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LLoyd Bridges was the closet Nazi, Brucer.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 21, 2010 - 01:35am PT
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Sorry, I meant served in combat, at the front. Churchill was senior enough that he may have been in command of combat troops, but he wasn't in combat. Not sure about Mussolini, Tojo etc. But neither Stalin nor Roosevelt was in the armed forces during World War I (Roosevelt may have been Secretary of the Navy, but that hardly counts), nor for that matter was Canada's Mackenzie King.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Oct 21, 2010 - 02:18am PT
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Hitler was a Lance Corporal in the trenches, and received the Iron Cross First Class which was seldom awarded to common enlisted men; he also received the Iron Cross Second Class, and the Wound Badge for being gassed.
His exposure to war gasses explained his aversion to use of gas on the battlefield in spite of his advisors wanting to use them on the Russians.
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sheepdog
Trad climber
just over the hill
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Oct 21, 2010 - 08:14am PT
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He used enough Zyklon B on his civilian victims. I think all combatant powers were worried about retribution if gas were used. Sort of a pre-atomic version of MAD.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 21, 2010 - 10:43am PT
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In the final instance, Hermann Goering decided to avoid the rope.
A wise move on his part. When a bunch of them nazis got hung, the US Army executioner made a "mistake" in his calculations and when they dropped their necks didn't snap, so they hung there and strangled to death.
He got canned for that.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 21, 2010 - 10:58am PT
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In Liverpool, England on business, hanging out with a few of the local toughs helping to load my container with furniture.
They were making American jokes, so I asked them "Sprechen zie Deutsh?"
They said "No, of course we don't speak German."
I said "Thats right, and thats because of America in WWII."
It almost got me in a fist fight but they knew I was right!
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 21, 2010 - 11:04am PT
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Funny Studly and good for you!
Here is quite a bit on Hermann G’s climbing. I know it is hard to believe this porker was ever able to leave sea level! It is David Irving’s biography, Goring. In the pages 30-32 Irving quotes from HG’s diary extensively. With his friends Barth and Rigele (who married Olga Goering) Goering actually did a first ascent of the twin Wilder Sander Peaks south of Lienz in 1911. And in this description also we have an account of his hike up the Watzmann as well as a page later, an account of the Wilder Sander outing. The Watzmann is the third highest peak in Germany being about 8900 ft and triple-summitted. It overlooks Hitler’s Kelsteinhaus, The Eagle’s Nest.
The entire biography online, free here (pertinent pages 30-32):
http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Goering/Goering_2010.pdf
and with his Pour le Merite (The Blue Max) medal at his throat:
He was 264 lbs when first imprisoned but only 5’-10”, having heart attacks and had been and continued to take 200mg of codeine daily in the form of twenty pills. When captured he had 2,000 pills in possession. (see chapter, “Fat Stuff Fights Back” pp475 onwards).
Here is Big Missy now in full:
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Oct 21, 2010 - 11:30am PT
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Wow, this thread surely has opened lots of doors( some of which probably should remain closed). Trying to stay at least somewhat climbing-related--as mentioned in the on-going Preuss tread there was a strong Nazi/fascist/anti-semitic element in the pre-WW II Germanic climbing community. For example a good number of the Austrian Nazis who helped in the Nazi takeover of Austria were climbers who would do their planning in mountain huts. Another example is Preuss's contemporary, the Dresden climber Fehrmann, who, according to Messner and other sources, was a rabid anti-semite, who eventually died in prison shortly after WW II awaiting trial for war crimes. So it is not really surprising that Goering, who, at least in his younger years, was personally very brave, did some climbing. The Nazis used climbing as a symbol for their rise, as exampled by the publicity surrounding the Eiger ascent. It is noteworthy that Leni Riefenstahl(I know I've mispelled her name), Hitler's favorite film-maker, was also a climber. Having said that, there were plenty of Germanic and other climbers of the day who were active anti-fascists, and even more who were basically apolitical.
On the other topic of WW I active service, or lack thereof, amongst the WW II leaders, it really was mostly age related as Roosevelt and Churchill were both too old to be drafted by the time of the First World War. Both served in the civilian part of the military, and Churchill for a time in the active military, during that war, but both were too old for the trenches. Churchill had been involved, as a war correspondent who saw action, in the Boer War. The Nazi leaders were a somewhat younger generation then the allied leaders, though their military experiences of the horrors of WW I surely didn't turn them into pacifists!!!! I'm not sure of Stalin's role in WW I--most likely he was either in prison or exile because of his radical activism, but he was involved in combat (as a commissar, I believe) during the Russian Civil War which followed.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 21, 2010 - 11:39am PT
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Interesting Al! Stalin was in fact conscripted for WW I but of course was disqualified as his left arm was basically paralyzed from two horse-drawn carriage accidents when he was a youth.
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richross
Trad climber
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Oct 21, 2010 - 11:42am PT
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I'll bet his favorite climbs were reich facing corners.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Oct 21, 2010 - 11:44am PT
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Apparently during W.W. II, trips to the mountains for climbing were frequently given as rewards for various "milestones" of service. In several of his books, German fighter pilot and test pilot, Mano Ziegler describes ski trips to the Marmolada as rewards for surviving 10 flights in combat in the Me 163 rocket fighter.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Oct 21, 2010 - 11:48am PT
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Peter-
The decoration at the Fat Hermann's throat is NOT the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross, but is in fact the "Pour le Merite," commonly known as the "Blue Max."
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Oct 21, 2010 - 11:49am PT
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Yea, after a tough day of drinking the jolly lager and terrorizing women and children and old people, what better relaxation than to go pull down on the stones? On the practical side, I'd sure hate to try and catch that whale when he winged off.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 21, 2010 - 12:06pm PT
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Another odd thing is that mountaineering, in the broad sense of the word, was also considered a very proletarian thing to do - in Soviet Russia. It was considered very egalitarian and Marxist, whether mountain hiking or serious climbing. And there were several German expeditions to climb in the USSR in the later 1920s and early 1930s, mainly in the Pamirs.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 21, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
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Thanks Broken, you are right. Goering had both, but is wearing the Blue Max in the photo.
The Grand Cross of the Iron Cross:
The Blue Max (Pour le Merite):
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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Oct 21, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
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Wow this is a really interesting yet slightly disturbing thread.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 21, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
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Why did Goering have a Frog medal?
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Oct 21, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
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Goering was a very heavy morphine addict, to dull the pain from a bullet wound he received during the 1923 Beer Hall Putsch in Munich. Probably doing codeine as well. His addiction was well known to the other Nazi leaders, but the good old boy system prevailed and Hitler never canned his ass, even when Goering let the Luftwaffe molder while he collected jewelry, art works stolen from all over Europe, and built an amazing minature train collection. After Goerings rash promises to relieve the Stalingrad Pocket by air (fail!) and his failure to stem the Allied bombardment of German cities later in the war, he was pretty much blown off by Hitler for a functional leadership roll and was kept around as window dressing, mainly the keep the German people from getting the idea that their leaders were total bozos. Unfortunately, for the majority of Germans, they either didn't figure it out until we had reduced their country to the stone age or they were too terrorized by the incredibly efficient police apparatus that was in place to risk protest.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Oct 21, 2010 - 01:15pm PT
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Hmmmm, Randisi hasn't been back.
I have a sneaking feeling that he's researching the goods, like he did on the Preuss thread!
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hb81
climber
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Oct 21, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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Why did Goering have a Frog medal?
It's not a French medal but a Prussian medal.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 21, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
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^^^^ Obviously, but isn't it at least ironic it is written in French?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 21, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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Another odd thing about the Nazis and mountains, related to their semi-mystical beliefs. The first ascent of the north face of the Eiger was in 1938, by Heinrich Harrer, Anderl Heckmair, Fritz Kasparek, and Ludwig Vörg. Vörg was on the first ascent of the north face of Ushba, in the Caucasus. After the Eiger, the four were somewhat co-opted by the Nazis. Harrer and Heckmair managed to avoid a lot of it by going to Nanga Parbat in 1939, getting interned, and escaping to Tibet. Vörg, and I believe Kasparek also, were put in an elite division of mountain troops, who in conformity with Nazi ideals were thought to be superior soldiers, and so used in 'impossible' situations. Vörg died on the first day of the invasion of the USSR in 1941, but Kasparek survived the war.
Of course, other countries also had "elite" divisions of mountain troops. Whether they were better troops than other soldiers, apart from better training and equipment, is an interesting question.
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hb81
climber
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Oct 21, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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Obviously, but isn't it at least ironic it is written in French?
Sure is, as nuts as they were one would expect that they'd make a re-design with a German inscripton or so...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 21, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
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Maybe they were just being sarcastic? On second thought...
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Oct 21, 2010 - 01:46pm PT
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Interestingly, when a group of Wehrmacht Mountain Troops climbed Mt. Elbrus in the Fall of 1942, Hitler wanted the participants severely reprimanded for diverting from the effort on the southern Russian front and complained to his generals about all that useless mountain climbing. I believe he actually forbid any further such "stunts" by his soldiers.
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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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Oct 21, 2010 - 01:54pm PT
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In the excellent Vanity Fair article on Messner that Reilly posted recently, Messner observes that at the time of the early Nanga Parbat expedition in 1934, the German Alpine Club had 600,000 members.
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hb81
climber
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Oct 21, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
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In the excellent Vanity Fair article on Messner that Reilly posted recently, Messner observes that at the time of the early Nanga Parbat expedition in 1934, the German Alpine Club had 600,000 members.
I'm wondering whether this number is really true as today it's "only" about 200,000 more. The Nazis pretty much overtook the German Alpine Club and integrated it into their public sport system.
I think there's a good chance that they "enhanced" the member numbers for propaganda issues.
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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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Oct 21, 2010 - 03:14pm PT
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Good question. In the early 1930s the population was around 62 million; today about 82 million, thus the proportions are roughly the same (assuming those numbers are accurate).
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 21, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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From wikipedia:
The German Alpine Club (German: Deutscher Alpenverein) or DAV is the largest climbing association in the world and the eight largest sports union in Germany. It is organised into 354 legally independent branches with a total of around 815,000[1] members. It is a member of the German Olympic Sports Confederation, the responsible body for sport and competition climbing, hiking, mountaineering, hill walking, ice climbing and mountain expeditions as well as ski mountaineering.
Here is the club medal, since we are doing medals:
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Oct 21, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
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Yo Randisi! What's up?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 21, 2010 - 04:44pm PT
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Vote or no vote, the people can always be brought to obey the commands of the leaders. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. This method works in any country. !!!!!
If only the neo-cons were so honest.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 21, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
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I saw that photo of Goering on the watzmann attributed to 1932 or 33. Ill have to dig it up. And that s no guarantee that the attribution is correct. But The later date seems plausible for a variety of reasons. I wrote on it a while back, but can't recall the details. As best I recall, a guided climb on a chunk of moderate fifth class choss on the Watzmann, after Goering had bought his chalet.
Goering wasn't much of a climber, but he was an early member of the Brandenburg Sektion of the DOEAV, which was the first climbing section to have an Aryan only clause.
The numbers on the DOEAV are probably correct. Six hundred k was a lot of folks, but climbing was really big in twenties and early thirties Germany and Austria. You need only to look to the Clubhouse, on one of the nicest pieces of real estate in Munich, to understand how nicely climbing was positioned in period German political and social life. Mountain climbing movies weed for German speakers what westerns were for Americans. Even Leni Riefenstahl got her start in Bergfilm
The DOEAV was an important club, not just in climbing but in culture generally. And it was one of the early platforms for political antiSemitism.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Nov 10, 2013 - 11:44am PT
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Here's a more complete rendition of his famous quote:
"Nazi leader Hermann Goering, interviewed by Gustave Gilbert during
the Easter recess of the Nuremberg trials, 1946 April 18, quoted in
Gilbert's book 'Nuremberg Diary.'
Goering: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some
poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that
he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece.
Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in
England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is
understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who
determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the
people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or
a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy the people have some
say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the
United States only Congress can declare wars.
Goering: Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in
any country."
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ddsstyle
Sport climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Nov 10, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
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"If that picture was from 1911, Goering would only be 18 in that photo. Doesn't look 18 to me, but it's hard to tell."
His weight absolutely ballooned in the 1930s. From photos taken in the late 1920's he is still not too big. Barrel chest for sure. But not obese. Looking at the mid 1930's, he looks like he is pushing 325. Not sure how much mountaineering he did once the party rose and his political role increased, along with his weight.
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