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billiegoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 25, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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My partner and I are new to aiding and we're looking to climb Roulette This weekend. We read some scary beta that showed up on a Google search about most once-fixed gear being gone, but that was from 2005. Most beta says the climb is either spicy, scary, or sketchy, yet supertopo big walls book says it never gets too difficult or too dangerous.
Wondering if anyone has any advice about this particular endeavour, recent or past.
Also, my illustrious partner and boyfriend would like to know if the belay bolts have been replaced.
Thanks much,
BG
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Aug 25, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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it never gets too difficult or too dangerous. for Chris Mac. YMMV
What other aid climbs have you done?
How are you at placing heads?
Not sure you'd want to jump on that if your "new" but I could be wrong.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Aug 25, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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I'd bring a kit.
There's fixed stuff, but it's kinda crap.
One of the coolest locations there is. Roulette, baby!
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Aug 25, 2010 - 12:35am PT
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Oh, I almost forgot.
Yer gonna die fer sure!
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Burt
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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Aug 25, 2010 - 01:42am PT
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Hey Goat if you are comfortable with big runs between gear on hooks, small heads, bad rock, then it is up your alley. The thing is steep you will not hit anything, but for the new walls I would try something a little less on the scale. West Face is awesome, Wet Denim is supposed to be great, climb the Zodiac in 2 days (or a day) that will make the aiding thing go a lot better. Mileage is the key to success on the routes. Roulette is a hard one. Still very modern A4 IMO.
Kurt "Burt" Arend
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Aug 25, 2010 - 02:30am PT
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Ok here is what Lord Klaus (Eric Kohl) had to say about it...
I just climbed this route last week. Overall I'd say it's a quality line with some incredible thin seams. It's possibly too soon for it to have a supertopo, especially with ratings of A3 and A2. The rivets for the most part are bad and I wouldn't expect they'd hold a fall. This combined with the extensive heading and hooking would make for some A4 in my book.
The first pitch is technically not that hard but you sure wouldn't want to fall. It appeared that someone had retreated off pitch 2 where a feature broke off leaving it blank for a move. I managed to chisel a head placement here (I brought no drilling gear). There is a bolt with a hanger on pitch 4 that should be removed. It must have been next to a detatched block that is now gone leaving an easy crack. Pitches 5 and 6 are totally rad but be warned most of the fixed gear has been removed so they will require a fair amount of effort and involve more time than you'd expect. Pitch six is probably the longest on the route at 175 feet or so. Pitch 7 was more involved than your average A2 pitch also.
As far as a rack list goes I'd suggest 12 beaks including peckers, the LA's should mostly be short/thin, 2 each baby angles, and at least 30 heads. I brought a pint of Dewars in lieu of cam hooks.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=91128&tn=40
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Aug 25, 2010 - 02:31am PT
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Wow, why not? Tons of folks started out hard.
You will find out on the 1st pitch if it is what you seek.
It is short.....
Good luck,
YGD.
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Gagner
climber
Boulder
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Aug 25, 2010 - 11:16am PT
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Don't fall on the first pitch - as was said above, it isn't that hard, but you could easily deck if you blew a hook onthe long run up to the first rivet.
If you haven't done much aid climbing I'd suggest something a bit safer, and easier.
P.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 25, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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Please don't feed the troll.
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Aug 25, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
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As most of the folks above have noted, Roulette is not a easy route. I did it in 2005 or 2006 & it seemed much more stout than the Super Typo rating of A3 might suggest. I would recommend doing Wet Denim first & see how that goes. Roulette has much harder hooking & heading than the ST guide makes it appear. I would consider it A3+/A4-. Not too bad if you know what you're doing but way stout for a self professed newbie team.
If you do send it though, you're hard core! Just don't drill if you get scared.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Aug 25, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
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Just don't drill if you get scared.
Agreed!
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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Aug 25, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
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If you get by the first pitch you could go at a one pitch per day kind of pace and figure everything out as you go along. Bring a long-ish tag line and have fun.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 25, 2010 - 05:53pm PT
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BG, ur in SC, talk to TD ...
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 25, 2010 - 06:54pm PT
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You guys are way too nice.
This thread reminds me of another I say recently where someone (a non climber) wrote that she just read a book on Everest and now wants to climb it. What do I need to know to do it?
Aid's a blast, but start small, start easy, start safe.
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OR
Trad climber
VT
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Aug 25, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
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Do it.
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Burt
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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Aug 25, 2010 - 10:34pm PT
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Tell that to Erik Sloan.
HEHEHE!!!
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billiegoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
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We're doin' it.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Aug 25, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
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Cool. Take lots of pics....please?
The Leaning Tower Kicks Ass.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 25, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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My partner and I are new to aiding and we're looking to climb Roulette This weekend.
Do the West Face noob. If you don't die on the first pitch you end up beating the sh#t out of the pristine hard nailing cracks.
Honestly, no offense man, you may be a great climber...but thinking you can skip the trade routes to jump into something that Klaus himself calls "hard," is foolish, naive, and potentially destructive to yourself, and the route.
I got money on you bailing to the West Face after one look at that first pitch (no shame in that). And if you are stupid enough to get on it, don't f*#kin' fall.
Wet Denim is an alternative, but still has some thin nailing in "don't fall territory" above Awhanee Ledge, and a delicate block to be surmounted.
Either way, have fun.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Aug 25, 2010 - 11:50pm PT
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Tell that to Erik Sloan.
LOL!!!
Good one Mike.
We're doin' it.
You did see the rack list right?
12 beaks incl. peckers
2 rurps
8 KBs: 2 ea #1-#3, #5
8 LAs: 2 ea #1-#4
2 ea. baby angles
nuts: 2 ea (offsets useful)
micronuts: 2 ea (offsets useful)
cams: 2 ea .4" (offsets useful)
3 ea .5"-1"
2 ea 1.25"-2"
30 heads
hooks: 2 ea (including large)
cam hooks
10 rivet hangers (including thin)
2 large balls (offsets helpful)
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Aug 26, 2010 - 01:54am PT
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Be sure to buy all of your Heads from Klaus...
As pete would say "Don't forget the ductape"
1 in 6 chance
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billygoat
climber
Pees on beard to seek mates.
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Aug 26, 2010 - 03:09am PT
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So I'm over at climber's night at the brewery tonight and my buddy Zach asks me how my plans are coming along for Roulette. I go, "I'm climbing Roulette?" And he informs me I've made a beta inquiry on ST. "No, I don't think so." Look, if you like me that much, don't just steal my taco identity. Track me down and flirt with me. I'm newly single, and a perfectly enjoyable assshole. Also, you can't be a billygoat. You appear to be female, and therefore lack the beard and the penis to piss on it with.
Oh, by the way, you're gonna die up there.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Aug 26, 2010 - 03:16am PT
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Bwahahahahahaha!!!!111
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 26, 2010 - 03:29am PT
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I'd say try to borrow a wingsuit from Ammon, but I think his is still in the evidence locker.
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billygoat
climber
Pees on beard to seek mates.
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Aug 26, 2010 - 11:25am PT
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Seriously, though, you're in Santa Cruz. Like k-man said, go talk to Tom Davis at Pacific Edge. He's pretty familiar with the route. Honestly, if you're new to aid, you're probably in way over your heads. Actually, you'll probably be falling way below your heads, but that's another story....
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billiegoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 26, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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Thanks, Silver
Belief has been enough to get me as far as I am. That and my partner. We're humble and ready to bail if needed.
But probably won't.
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Anywhere I like
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Aug 26, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
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What did Sloan do?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 26, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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//We're humble and ready to bail if needed.
But probably won't.//
You ever get the feeling someone just isn't hearing what you have to say?
I'm probably not the best person to be advising caution. Back in '83, when I was 19, I dragged my 17 year old buddy up Zodiac, which at the time was probably still old school A3, maybe A3+. Loose Block pitch still had loose blocks. The Chicken Bolt pitch still required lots of rurps. All thin knifeblades under the Nipple Pitch, etc. Prior that my only aid experience was the NW Face of the Dome three years earlier and The Prow the year before.
Despite, that I had been trad climbing for 6 yrs., done a bunch of practice aiding and nailing at places like Mt. Rubidoux, Riverside Quarry and all kinds of concrete pillars in Orange County (which were surprisingly tricky). My friend had done all the similarly sketchy aid climbs in SF. We didn't have a lot of experience way off the deck, but we were solid climbers who had a pretty good idea of how to nail.
Having said that, it was (apart from becoming a dad) probably the biggest breakthrough experience of my life. After that anything, climbing or otherwise, seemed possible if I was willing to roll up the sleeves and get to it. In retrospect, the only other two El Cap nailing routes I've done, the Shield and PO Wall, felt kind of easy compared to Zodiac.
So, in other words, sometimes youthful enthusiasm and guts can get you thru stuff, but it still helps to have some foundation to base it on. Most of the people on this forum are genuinely supportive, but despite their joking don't want to see anyone get hurt or, almost as bad, a route get permanently downgraded because some couldn't wait to earn their chops elsewhere.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Aug 26, 2010 - 06:41pm PT
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Aren't you the billie goat that just got her first lead on that 5.10x route at Parkline?
The one your "Experienced" partner threw you on telling you it was a 5.8?
Try not to hold too much stock in your ropegun, no room for error up there.
Mucci
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Aug 26, 2010 - 07:15pm PT
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OooooH
This is getting more interesting.
I sense an epic in the making.
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billygoat
climber
Pees on beard to seek mates.
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Aug 26, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
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I'm curious, if you're ready to bail whenever needed, how might you bail from the middle of a bunch of mandatory hooking when you realize you don't know which hook to use? How are you gonna bail off of a head ladder when one blows and you can't figure out how to place a solid new one? Maybe you have this stuff reasoned out in your head, but Roulette is not the wall to learn if you don't have experience with these types of placements. Then again, maybe you'll get up there and not freak out. Maybe stuff won't blow. But are you prepared to deal if it does? And even if you do top out, is it gonna be a matter of luck or skill. Your ascent will be much more noble if it's the latter. I would feel guilty if you broke rule number one and I didn't tell you this. What you are about to do is EXTREMELY dangerous regardless of experience, so why not gain some experience so you stand a better chance of negotiating the dangers?
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msiddens
Trad climber
Mountain View
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Aug 27, 2010 - 12:22am PT
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wonder if billygoat knows billiegoat?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 27, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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The Tower is difficult to bail on noob. Bring extra shorts to change into after making the first few moves off the ledge.
This is either the dumbest thread I have ever seen, or the best troll. If not have fun carrying a huge pin rack up the WFLT.
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billygoat
climber
Pees on beard to seek mates.
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Aug 27, 2010 - 01:45am PT
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I don't think I do know her, but I'd like to meet her. Surely we've been around each other. The climbing community isn't THAT big in Santa Cruz. I have no interest in meeting a dead person walking. I'll make the effort if she survives or successfully bails.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Aug 28, 2010 - 04:16am PT
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Las Vegas is posting 20:1 odds on them topping out.
I can't wait for the TR.
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Pierre
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Aug 28, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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Me thinks -
T r o l l . . .
(The best one in a long time=)
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Aug 30, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
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Bump for an update?...
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j-tree
Trad climber
bay area, ca
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Aug 30, 2010 - 09:46pm PT
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So, long story short, we went up and bailed Roulette while still standing on the catwalk. I'd post a TR on the Route page but the vertical miles it would cover would be a bit thin.
I feel like Billiegoat caused enough interest with her thread that a TR would be worth posting here. Because we did not actually get on Roulette, I would not read this if you want to know about that route. I have some pictures of the start of it, otherwise, the TR will be less about Roulette and more about our journey up down and around.
Skip or read depending upon whether that’s your sort of thing.
Intention
We spent the summer practicing aid placements on rotten boulders an hour north of Truckee. Fun two and three move wonders that were more about trying to figure out what worked and what didn't. The translation from the page to the rock coming in spurts of realizations followed by dry spells in between. We would have liked to go a bit bigger, but our jobs only gave us 24 hours off every week. Not nearly enough time to march up to a big wall and do anything but turn back around again. We had played on Washington Column before the summer but had no other longer route to hang our hat on besides multiple single pitch TR hooking sessions done more for the fun of trying things out than for the most efficient line to the top - read as, all over the place, including the occasional quick downward trip.
Once our summer job was over, we pulled out our Big Walls book and opened up to Leaning Tower. We wanted something that we could play about with iron and hooking and heading instead of clean aid so that we could piece together all of the things that we had practiced over the summer. I suppose that any clean wall can go with aid but part of me feels that if it can go clean then it should go clean (the other part just not knowing).
She loved the description of Roulette and I liked the challenge that it posed. Putting everything together all at once would be exhilarating to say the least. Better than the difficulty was the options of West Face or WDDD should we decide that our eyes were bigger than our hearts for the time being. The only other thing that you might need to know in advance is that we have hammocks. There’s something sufferingly romantic about doing a wall in hammocks. Have we done one yet? Nope. Do we expect to still want to do a wall in hammocks after we’ve done one? I don’t. Romance is seldom a practical or comfortable thing.
Application
We left the bay area at 3:30 and drove for Yosemite. Getting there as the sun was setting, we parked off of the road and gathered our stuff together. The most amount of time was probably spent getting smelly things out of the car. Mouthwash, deodorant, trash, toothpaste, sunscreen. By the time we had sufficiently bear proofed the car, the light was gone and we were moving down the road with our headlamps showing us the way.
We intended to approach through the night. Once we passed the bear boxes of the parking area, we headed towards the “house sized” boulder that Chris talks about in the approach information. “Is that it? It looks more like a shed.” The first thing we saw didn’t seem large enough until the beam of my headlamp hit what appeared to be a walk of granite behind the shed sized boulder. “Distinct” was a good descriptor for this boulder. We moved around that boulder, stopping to look at the chalked up problems (read as, I stopped and Billiegoat did not like standing around with two ropes strapped to her pack) and found the trail heading uphill. Where the trail splits at the top of the hill there is the option to go left and the option to go right. During the day time, one can see the cairns off to the left more clearly. During the nighttime, it is easy to follow the community trails around the boulders heading to the right. A note for those doing the approach at night. When Chris says, veer right through the boulder field, this is based upon facing the wall, not facing uphill. If you face uphill, you would want to veer to the left. This did not become apparent until the morning.
Having immediately lost the trail in the boulder field, he did the best we could to talus hop while looking for cairns. Without the packs, this would be fun and beautiful as most of the boulders are massive and the moss moves seamlessly from the ground onto the rocks. With our packs this was like taking a sweat bath while punishing our knees for some past sin. This talus approach made me thankful that we choose to climb with a purposefully large rack in order to learn how to balance with the oppressive and shifting burden of the weight. The night was warm we think. Truth is that it could have been freezing and we still would have had our shirts off at the first gasping stop somewhere in the wasteland of looming boulders.
Eventually, we could see the shadowed outline of Leaning Tower off to our left and so we began veering in that direction, finally finding the cairns and trail aprox halfway up the approach. Once we hit the wall, we followed the line of ledges above us into the dark, hoping that they would equal the start of the catwalk and our bivy spot. Twice we were denied but the leapfrogging hopes of each new ledge hanging above us made it a bit easier in the long run. Every time we said, “I’m done, to hell with this.” We would look up and say “just a bit further, probably 25 more feet, just got to push it” Thus teaching us BIGWALLLESSON#1 Just keep walking.
At the bivy spot, we dropped our bags, lay on the ground and fell asleep. The time it took to read that sentence is probably the same amount of time it took us to perform those three actions.
In the morning we grabbed our things and headed up the catwalk. We came to the start of Roulette almost immediately. Maybe. 25% sure. The topo has the route starting just before the “fixed line tree” yet this did not seem to be the case. The first tree that had the fixed line to it was the smaller tree that has its lower trunk shooting directly out from the wall, forcing you to step over it (and over an exposed drop) in order to continue on the catwalk. This exposed drop taught me the first thing about big wall approaches that I was to learn that day: haul bags are much much heavier and thus, much more dangerous to walk around with than a normal pack. I’m used to hiking 4 60M ropes and gear up to the top of climbing walls for my summer camp, but exposed catwalks are something completely different. After realizing that I was being pushed a bit too far away fropm the wall as I was trying to get past the tree, I learned BIGWALLLESSON#2 Scout around, THEN bring the pack.
Having now dropped our packs, we decided that the start of the route did not seem to begin before this tree, so we continued on, finding 10-20 feet later that the fixed line wrapped around a much larger tree (prob 3-4’ diameter). The features on the wall just before this tree did match up with Roulette and so we were now 50% sure. Looking around, it seemed like I could match up a few bolts up high that made sense based upon the topo. We were now 75% sure. To be 100% sure, we figured that we should find the start to West Face. This would prove that we had gone too far and the backtracking would be the nail in the coffin. Actually, lets change the imagery to something else. The backtracking would be the icing on the cake. Never mind.
Making the trek over to West Face started out without a harness until about midway when Billiegoat suggested rather strongly that we get our harnesses. There are parts of that traverse that might be better called 4th class + or just 5th class. On your own, the traverse is fun and airy. We would later learn that when hauling gear across it, airy would be a descriptor that didn’t hold the correct amount of dread and yuck.
Once we stood in front of West Face, we were now 100% certain that we had earlier found the beginning of Roulette. The good thing about 100% certainty about finding the beginning of the route was that we were now 100% certain that we were not ready to start that route. Cue pictures now.
and later in front of West Face
Call it fear but once I was sure we had found the route, I then became certain that we were wrong about the route. “There’s a bunch of routes here that aren’t in the guide. Look at that bolt, and that rivet” Inside I knew that I was just scared. But the best part about Leaning Tower was the routes like West Face to the left that we could conveniently scoot over to. There something frightening about seeing three equalized heads attached to a locking biner. It’s like a sign saying, “Pain and Fear lie this way.” I could see fixed heads sticking out from the wall, but they didn’t look like they were fully attached to anything. At that distance, I have a feeling that their relative solidity had as much truthfulness in my head as a mirage of water to a cartoon guy crawling through the desert. From the base, you cannot see past the first corner section. This means ten feet or so of the copperhead/biner warning followed by…. I don’t know. Our internal agreement about risk and safety forces us to see the route that we know is probably over our heads (pun intended). It’s hard to convince yourself of what you cannot see. Back on the ground, in my chair at work, I can see the equalized heads and biner as a safety net, but at the time they seemed more like a warning. In the end, when choosing between a neat row of bolts as far as the eye can see versus ten feet of heads followed by… something, West Face was the choice we made.
I had thought to myself how happy I was to not be dragging my gear across the catwalk to West Face when I was scouting over to it. While I later was actually lugging the gear, I cursed my formerly happy self. Making a 4th class traverse with a haul bag is something I never want to do again, that I look forward to doing it again is besides the point. It was later when I was heading back across the catwalk that I learned BIGWALLLESSON#3: Bags can be attached to a fixed line and pushed with a small ascender. Such a lesson would have saved a lot of anguish.
At West Face, I headed up the bolt ladder and got to the bolt right below the bulgy overhang section that takes C1F. I needed to back clean and so I had Billiegoat lower me to gather some of my draws and biner chains from the bolt ladder. This allowed me the fun of learning BIGWALLLESSON#4: When on overhanging terrain, make sure that you are clipped to the belay side of the rope as well. Once I was hanging in space and unable to reach the wall again. I realized that I had made a small mistake. I remember being able to make a swing on the playground go back and forth by swinging my legs forward and then leaning back, but apparently this does not work from a dead hang. I tried doing an Indiana Jones whipping move with my aiders to get a swinging action going but to no avail. Shaking my head at myself and hearing Billiegoat’s laughter at my helpless thrashing in space, I was forced to have Billiegoat lower me all the way past her ledge until I could reach the wall and kick myself into an arc and then climb back up to her.
Having to reaid up to the last high point could have been a low point of the day (though not nearly as low as that wordplay joke) but for some reason it wasn’t. The weight of Roulette was off me and everything felt fine. I had no worries anymore. Then I got to my last high point. Faced with the C1F section, I noticed that there was a rusting piton halfway up the crack and not a lot else that I could see at first. A few shallow slots and a solid left rising crack that was more than out of my reach. I assume at this point that I’m missing something easy, but as I sit there very few option begin to show themselves. There looked like a head placement that had been removed but I had left my heads at the belay and didn’t want to place any I (I had convinced myself that the section was clean and that I would not need to place any, with that in mind, I put the idea of placing heads out of my mind) I decided to try a tomahawk high and to the right in a small groove and was able to step up and onto it. I was not happy with this though because this placement was obviously tipped out, but at this point, I decided to keep moving up. I fiddled with my brass offsets more because I wanted to see how they would work and found that I probably want a little more time playing with them closer to the ground. A 00 C3 worked well for a bit until it began to move out as I tested it. Finally I got a ballnut placement that looked perfect. This is where I learned BIGWALLLESSON#5: stand there long enough and your mind starts to play tricks on you. I looked at the ballnut, saw that most of the ball was showing and decided that it was a good placement. Bounced it, stepped up onto it, and then took a ride into space. As I was falling, it occurred to me that I knew that the ballnut placement was bad. I knew that the less of the rounded ball you see, the better. In this case though, my mind tripped me up and I made a bad choice.
Once I got back onto the bolt, my head felt different. Mistrust had become part of the game now. I knew this feeling well from many a multipitch climb where the topout came long after dark and I had to check everything I did at least 3 times to make sure that I would catch every mistake. From here I placed the tomahawk again, pulled it out while bounce testing it and then sat there for a while. I noticed a perfectly drilled bathook hole right at the right side of the lip. I knew this would help me surmount the bulge and place a solid piece in the crack up left, but my talon was down at the belay. I could have called for Billiegoat to send it up to my on the tag line but I didn’t. I was done and I knew it. I threw a locking quicksilver (booty alert) on the bolt and headed down. This time, I remembered to clip myself to the belay side of the rope.
I’ll spare you the story of getting back to the ground. Suffice to say, my back and joints hurt. Once we had time, he headed over to Church Bowl and aided Church Bowl Tree in order to set the TR on More Balls Than Brains which was a lot of fun. The bathooks that take you to and between the 2 rivets at the start of that route only served to prove to me that I could have easily surmounted the bulge, but knowing what could have worked only matters when you find yourself back up there again.
...and a few more pictures before we go
So, this is a TR of failure, a TR of learning, or just a TR. We’re happy with the weekend despite its unplanned result, we will go back to send West Face or WDDD and after that, we will go back to send Roulette. At this point, it’s only a matter of time. Once we do, we’ll post a proper Roulette TR for all to see.
Prologue
I made a point not to respond to the posts in this thread until after I got back from this weekend, I guess there's a bit of a list to get to. Check for your name if you feel like you merited a response.
Lambone:
I actually had your post going through my head as we were driving to Yosemite. "I got money on you bailing to the West Face after one look at that first pitch (no shame in that" This is pretty much the same mindset that I had going into the whole idea. Lines on a page are hard to use for anything but general reference. Walk up to the start with the option of bailing to the left is a win/win imo.
Mucci:
The previous thread you mention about Billiegoat's first climb is a bit vague in parts. We didn't go up the 10a thinking that it was the 5.8MGJ route. We knew that we hadn't found MGJ (due to the inconsistencies with the topo information we had: bolt # and features)and so we decide to adventure climb the route that was in front of us. Being able to look at something and make the decision to accept the risk or bail is as important to climbing as being able to send the route in the first place. In our opinion, a "go for it" attitude is good only when the blinders about the wages of risk are observed.
Billygoat:
In regards to your questions about down-aiding in order to bail: I have a feeling that when my partner called our team new to aiding, we should have been a bit more specific that we were new to putting everything together onto a longer climb. We spent the summer practicing placing heads and iron and hooks and peckers on crappy unclimbed and rotten boulders near the Sierra Buttes. Anywho, the point being that we both felt (and still feel) that we have the experience to look ahead and decide whether to start up the string of hooks before we get to that point of needing to down-aid on hooks. Same thing with placing heads which Billiegoat has a good amount of experience doing on those same boulders.
In regards to your login name, originality is probably the best way to prevent people from using the same name as you. Billiegoat and I both use names that we use at a summer camp that we work at. I use J-Tree for obvious reasons and she uses Billiegoat because goats can climb and it's cute to shorten it to "billie". These things happen.
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Llewelyn Moss
Big Wall climber
china beach
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Aug 30, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
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i can dig it... thats AOK (edit:with me!)
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 30, 2010 - 10:08pm PT
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Billegoat,
welcome to the world of bigwall climbing!
Rather then say "I told you so..."
I'll just say Im glad you made the wise decision that you wern't ready for Roulette. As I said, no shame in being smart and humble enough to accept your limitations.
I like your attitude, it seems like you had some fun despite bailing, and that's what it's all about. If you can bail off an attempt on the Tower, and still want to bigwall climb, then you are halfway there.
There's nothing wrong with having ambitious wall plans, hell...how else would all those hard scary routes get put up? The key is to be honest with yourself and have a plan B or even a plan C. The supertopo books make the routes sound casual, but you gotta remember, the authors, and Klaus have miles of hard aid behind them, so if they say it's kinda hard, to the average climber it means really f*#kin hard and scary.
Anyway, good for you for getting up there. Get back after it and leave the pins at home next time. I'd still recomend doing WFLT first, then maybe some column routes before getting on WDD. btw, That C1 move On WFLT is a blue alien from the bolt and clip the fixed pin. Whoever drilled that bathook is an idiot.
Cheers
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billygoat
climber
Pees on beard to seek mates.
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Aug 30, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
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What Lambone said. Glad you two made the right decision in the end.
Oh, and billiegoat (no matter the spelling) is a horrible camp name or any kind of nickname for a girl. Seriously, they pee on their beards. How about Snow Leopard or some other majestic creature.
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billiegoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2010 - 10:38pm PT
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Lambone:
Your response made me feel fuzzy and nice, but most of all, encouraged. I've got the big wall fire in me. I told Jtree after bailing that I still felt badass just making the approach, in the dark Blair witch status.
Next step maybe some Washington Column action. Jtree and Billie go halfsies on a portaledge. It'll be like getting a dog together but better.
Much appreciation,
BG
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 30, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
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Prolly 9 out of 10 Tower bailers never wall climb again. Be the 1!
And yes, the Tower approach is a bitch in the dark, even if you've done it before. I lol'd at the Blair Witch Project analogy. Definately been there!
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 30, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
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Pre-Spray is almost allways a bad idea.
Come to think of it, there did use to be some sort of manky fixed piece with a broken wire above that bolt.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Aug 30, 2010 - 11:33pm PT
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rawking!!!
BIGWALLLESSON#5: stand there long enough and your mind starts to play tricks on you. I looked at the ballnut, saw that most of the ball was showing and decided that it was a good placement. Bounced it, stepped up onto it, and then took a ride into space. As I was falling, it occurred to me that I knew that the ballnut placement was bad. I knew that the less of the rounded ball you see, the better. In this case though, my mind tripped me up and I made a bad choice.
This will carry you forward in that you will never, EVAR, make that mistake again. Since you didn't hit nothing on the fall, it was a good day.
keep it up
oh, and 'yer gunna die!'
cheers,
M
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 30, 2010 - 11:41pm PT
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Ballnuts suck, a camhook almost allways works better.
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j-tree
Trad climber
bay area, ca
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Aug 31, 2010 - 12:15am PT
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assuming this is all true, i'd say by far that the most questionable decision you guys made was the one to pre-spray on supertopo.
@Ian Jewell
If posting to get info on a route that one is excited to get on is pre-spray, how can one elicit info without being considered spray happy?
Granted, being determined to walk to the base of a climb and see it yourself may come across as pig-headed, and continuing to be excited about the possibilities of being able to experience a climb even when others who have experience express doubt and misgivings can be seen as foolhearty, but I've always associated spraying with delusions about what one will do as opposed to being excited about what one could do.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 31, 2010 - 12:18am PT
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pg1
We're doin' it.
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billiegoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2010 - 12:28am PT
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We're doin it = We're goin for it
I was excited and I wanted to think we could pull it. One day we will.
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j-tree
Trad climber
bay area, ca
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Aug 31, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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we're doing it
Can easily be understood as we're going to send it when taken out of context, understandibly.
I would hope though, that the rest of Billiegoat's posts would allow you to see that the same statement can be a response to being told not to try.
If she was spraying about sending it as a forgone conclusion, I don't think that it'd make sense in the context of her saying that we're completely prepared to bail if it's too hard/technical/scary/ or whatever else is an acceptable or unacceptable reason to back down.
Edit: BG posted faster than I could. Apologies for the multiposting
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j-tree
Trad climber
bay area, ca
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Aug 31, 2010 - 01:11am PT
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@ Ian Jewell
Imo, asking for beta is different from asking permission. In the same way, offering beta is different from offering permission.
Your own argument talks about the need for humility and perspective in action rather than words. Considering that the actions in this case concerned a willingness to back down if needed and the actual backing down, I find it difficult to find the part I would change next time out.
Unless our being willing to carry too much gear up a hill changes your day somehow? Or does our willingness to go look at something in the flesh (or rock) even if we've been told we shouldn't changes your climbing experience somehow? My partner and I got excited and then backed off when it got to be too much (or in this case, before it got to be too much). Should we no longer share our excitement with the ST community in your opinion?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 31, 2010 - 01:18am PT
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and don't worry if they call you "noob"
I don't see "noob" as a derogatory term. Nothing wrong with being a "noob" to anything. Everyone is a noob to everything at some point, there is only one way to become not-a-noob.
Whenever I talk to someone about bigwall climbing my suggestion is always to work your way up the trade routes before you get into the serious stuff. I have only been on a couple of routes that could be considered hard-ish aid, probably more moderate these days...and I was sure glad I had seen a lot to the stuff I'd been through on trade routes beforehand. Allowed me to climb with confidence and in better style (not the "best" style by any means).
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j-tree
Trad climber
bay area, ca
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Aug 31, 2010 - 01:37am PT
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The word noob is fine, though the context around it can change things.
I tell my students similar things in class, Everything you currently know started out as "I don't know" so don't worry about not knowing, worry about the steps you'll take to find out.
I'm glad that Lambone and others were able to point out the positive to be found. You should know that those things are appreciated.
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Aug 31, 2010 - 10:34am PT
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So, this is a TR of failure, a TR of learning, or just a TR. We’re happy with the weekend despite its unplanned result
We've all been there...sounds like a lot of lessons learned! And dont forget...
"If you want to climb it badly enough, you will. So... why bother ?" — Doug Scott.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 31, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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I think the #1 lesson of wall climbing is learning to roll with the punches. It's rare that things go exactly as planned. If you can adapt and continue smilling, even through a bail, then your ahead of the curve.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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You nailed on P1 of leaning tower.
BIGWALL LESSON #1 DO NOT NAIL ON ESTABLISHED CLEAN PITCHES.
Unbelievable.
Back to the boulders for you two, but with small nuts this time.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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I really like the grim-reaper style photo of you pointing at leaning tower.
The beauty of this situation is that you got to have the mental (and physical) experiences that you wanted to have... puzzling over placements, testing/using the barely workable, and solving wall-specific logistical problems, all without having to risk decking on the first pitch of Roulette. Location, location, location...
Id say most agree that every time you push yourself on aid in the future, its going to feel just like leaning tower felt. Only as you get more tools in your bag you will learn that you can solve about any problem based on past experience.
Thank you for sharing your trip report. I think every one of us looks forward to the feelings that you're describing as we head into the next wall season...climbing slightly over our heads, puzzling it out, and walking the fine line between heading up and heading down.
-Kate.
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j-tree
Trad climber
bay area, ca
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You nailed on P1 of leaning tower.
Mucci, I'm going to assume you're talking about the tomahawk I mentioned. I hand placed that piece. No hammer involved. Does that still count as nailing? Or were you thinking of something else?
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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My partner and I are new to aiding and we're looking to climb Roulette This weekend.
Hilarious!
And the fact that you got shut down by the easiest pitch in the world makes it even funnier, thanks for the laugh!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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"Mucci, I'm going to assume you're talking about the tomahawk I mentioned. I hand placed that piece. No hammer involved. Does that still count as nailing? Or were you thinking of something else? "
Sorry for the confusion. Placed and hand placed are two different descriptions.
I hand place beaks on every route. Good you were thinking along those lines.
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j-tree
Trad climber
bay area, ca
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okay, I see the difference in terminology now. Next time i'll be sure to differentiate placed and hand-placed next time i TR about something like a pecker or baby angle or something like that. Thanks for the heads up Mucci. (not sarcasm)
yeah. I think I posted this earlier. But i def am of the mindset that if it goes clean, then the hammer stays in the bag.
though I do have a question though (just realized this)
if on a route where it goes clean, but on fixed gear, how can one find out what gear is expected to be fixed? Mostly I ask this because I'm not sure how to proceed when on a route that says fixed gear on a section and I can't figure a way through that section. I will normally assume that I'm just not seeing a clean move but if it does require some fixed gear that is missing and thus requires a hammer to come out, how does one know before hand what to specifically expect to be there.(especially on pitches where the topo says "tons of fixed gear")
I assume the initial answer is "you learn to figure it out with time" but many of the "easier" trade routes such as those on Washington Column or Leaning Tower might present this issue to someone that is early on and thus has yet to have that experience.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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I was out of town so I missed the update, glad you guys had a good learning experience.
Big Wall Lesson #6: Back clean as you go on a bolt ladder. Only need to clip like every third bolt.
Big Wall Lesson #7: Don't count on fixed gear being there. A missing head or 2 could turn a C2 section into A3!
Big Wall Lesson #8: Learn how to tag. The belayer could have tied some heads and a hammer (or whatever was needed)to the haul line, leader pulls it up, and you could have continued on.
More lessons in there too I'm sure, but at least you guys have the right attitude. Stick with it and you will send.
Edit: Big Wall Lesson #9: After a fall (or being lowered), jugging back up the lead line is way easier that what you did! Hahaha! (sorry, that one made me laugh)
If you didn't have jugs with you on lead, See Lesson #8!
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Oh yeah, the Big Wall Lesson you didn't get to learn yet:
Hammocks SUCK!
There are probably some people here who would be willing to loan you a double ledge..(I would consider it myself),
but you don't need one for the West Face.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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> We wanted something that we could play about with iron and hooking and heading instead of clean aid so that we could piece together all of the things that we had practiced over the summer.
I think you were trying to learn too many things at once.
Better to:
1. Learn how to aid a full length pitch. Learn about partial backcleaning on the way up, and how much gear/biners/draws you need to bring with you on lead. You started to learn this on p1 of Leaning Tower West Face.
2. Practice hooking on a friendlier pitch than Roulette, where if something goes wrong you do not die. I would recommend the first pitch of Mescalito.
3. Do a multipitch clean aid route. Learn mechanics of following, hauling etc. Get fast enough so that you can climb 4 or more full pitches of aid each day.
4. Do El Cap.
5. Then, if you still want to learn more destructive techniques like nailing and placing heads, go ahead. At this point you will not be trying to learn everything at once.
Analogy: if you want to learn face climbing on knobs, start on something reasonably well protected like Cryin' Time Again, or East Cottage Dome. Don't start out on the Bachar-Yerian, because if something goes wrong, you deck/die. Same thing with Roulette. The hard aid ratings these days like A4 are not really about difficulty of getting something to hold your body weight. They are really more like R and X - you don't dare fall. Learn techniques in situations where you can survive a fall, like you did on that toprope by Church Bowl Tree.
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billygoat
climber
Pees on beard to seek mates.
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Lambone has given you guys some good advice, Clint just gave you some excellent advice. I hope you both take it to heart. There's been a number of posts on this thread that you could run with and end up suffering some serious consequences. I can imagine, being novices, it's hard to decipher who to listen to and easy to go with what you want to hear. Ignore the folks who tell you just to go for it, take caution from those of us you give you sarcastic warnings, and head the wisdom of those who have the credentials. You will more than likely walk away with your lives if you do.
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j-tree
Trad climber
bay area, ca
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This last page of posts is the reason why I love ST so much. Beneath the crusty surface is a bunch of guys with experience that care about everyone else in the community getting that same experience without breaking bones or the rock.
I'm liking the view from the bottom of the ladder (hahah pun! get it! get it?... hahaha..ha..he heh. eh... ahem.) after being knock down a peg or seven.
We've decided to do Wyoming Sheep Ranch next. j/k ;-P But in actuality, we're thinking of doing the first 4 pitches of the nose and then coming down followed by East Buttress (free of course) to figure out the east ledges descent.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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The Nose might not be the best choice of routes to practice on because of the crowds it sees, depends on the traffic.
P1 of the NA and PO are good practice. First pitches of the Muir are ussually uncrowded and easy to bail from.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
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Listen to Clint on this one. Plenty of time to learn to climb right. No hurry to go up and get hurt.
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saghi
Trad climber
Muskogee, OK
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Hey J-Tree! Remember me, Shaggy? I don't post here. Only lurk.
Nice story. The beginning of The Nose would be great practice. Be mindful of the crowds, though. They get pissy if you're slow/learning.
I would recommend SFWC before The Nose. I bailed at sickle due to two straight days of rain my first try. I did SFWC before I got back on the nose and the difference was night and day. Working out the kinks on SFWC was very good for me.
Hope you are well!
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