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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 25, 2010 - 04:51pm PT
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ok boyz --need some help with a harness choice. What's the latest...
Need one that is:
--lightweight (and simple)
--has the "no-need-to-double-back" buckle
--good strong belay loop
--also good haul clip-in loop on back
--gear loops: really only need two but four's ok, and not plastic, yet something beefier than the ones that are just seam tape folded over with a plastic tube over it. Definitely don't like the ones with 4 big plastic gear loops sticking out like elephant ears, as I still rack with shoulder slings and might find myself even doing offwidths again.
cheap would be nice, too. Any ideas?
oh, also--one that is fairly adjustable, but doesn't end up with that annoying flap of waist padding that always ending up sticking out instead of overlapping with the other side in front...
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treeman
climber
mule city
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May 25, 2010 - 04:55pm PT
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BD Momentum SA runs 60 bucks US, has what your looking for.
TMaloney
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jack herer
climber
veneta, or
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May 25, 2010 - 05:12pm PT
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ya bd harness's are horrible... i highly reccomend metolius but you do have to double the buckle back. everything is full strength wich is nice, you probably deserve to eat it if you manage to clip in with your gear loops... but its greatr peice of mind. wouldnt climb in anything else, but thats just my opinion
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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May 25, 2010 - 05:43pm PT
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what you described, john, sounds like a souped-up swami belt.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 25, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
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Petzl Calidris, comfortable enough for big wall, light and breathes enough for everything else too. Only drawback- no elastic in the leg loops to help keep them up and $$.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 05:55pm PT
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Exactly, a souped up swami would be ideal. Can't seem to find the good tubular 2" red webbing anymore, dang...
Thanks for the kind offer, Mike, but I'm about a 35" waist now.
Thanks all for the suggestions. All good choices, haven't pressed the "buy now" button yet, though...
That Mistly looks the best so far to me. The extra $30 or so is the cost of buying American it seems.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 25, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
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I haven't tried the ranger, but the Misty cadillacs etc. with the fleece covering don't breathe well (sweaty and clammy) and they break down so you feel the webbing belt. The Petzl frame construction distributes the load better. YMMV.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 25, 2010 - 06:26pm PT
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n00b?
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apogee
climber
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May 25, 2010 - 06:29pm PT
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Another vote for Misty Mountain- I have a Cadillac (which is bigger than you are looking for), but the workmanship is superb.
Black Diamond = offshore manufactured Krap®. Tell a friend.
Buy from your local retailer, too- avoid the big-box REI megalopolis.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 06:33pm PT
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beginners mind, nature, beginners mind...
Cragman, it looks like the Metolius don't have the new fangled no-double-back buckles (what the heck are they called, anyway?). I really like that feature. Even Lynn forgot once.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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May 25, 2010 - 06:35pm PT
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it was a joke ;-)
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 07:16pm PT
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me too!
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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May 25, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
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I am with Locker the Metolius SafeTech. Or really the senility harness cause if you screw something up it is still bomber. The gear loops are full strength as are the leg loops. It could be a bit wider in the back but it is a fine all-round harness.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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May 25, 2010 - 07:44pm PT
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John - "no-double-back buckles" = "Speed Adjust buckles", at least that's what the black diamond folks call them.
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Scott McNamara
Social climber
Tucson, Arizona
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May 25, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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John,
What about talking to Mike Head in Tucson?
He will build you whatever you want.
You can design it yourself.
I do not think his price will be much different from buying a commercial harness.
Have fun!
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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May 25, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
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The BD Chaos is by far the best trad climbing harness on the market.
Coz,
Are you joking about the belay loop? Tripled-over webbing can be held together with duct tape and still hold any force generated in a climbing fall.
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squishy
Mountain climber
sacramento
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May 25, 2010 - 08:09pm PT
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A real pain to get on, but more bomber than anything else...I find that feature to be a plus and a giant piece of mind...
Another vote for Met here...
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habitat
climber
grass pass
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May 25, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
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//BD has one of the weakest harnesses on the market, their belay loop is not bar tacked all the way through, making it much weaker than most.
Their tie in point, turns into a daisy chain pocket, if you do not clip your belay device to the loop of your rope. It could fail...
I would never use one.//
Coz,
I got mine out immediately to check this out -- and you're right, the belay loop does not appear to be bar tacked all the way through...never noticed it before, just sort of take these things for granted, that the gear I buy from a company like BD will be safe, but you say not...which, given your experience, leads me to wonder...
And, could you elaborate on your second sentence and caution, not being an aid climber, not sure what to make of it.
Thanks.
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
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To all harness gear manufacturers.
Please give John at least a pro deal or some kind of deal on the harness he eventually chooses.
This is a guy when he was A5 was helping all kinds of people with their gear.
He was an icon on YOSAR for years.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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May 25, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
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Coz,
BD makes bomber gear. Everyone from the CEO to the engineers climb on it. I have put hundreds of hours and dozens of walls on my harness. If you have a more specific complaint I think you need to make it known here. Making vague accusations is not moving this conversation forward.
cheers,
Brendan
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habitat
climber
grass pass
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May 25, 2010 - 10:16pm PT
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Brendan,
Coz has stated that the belay loop is not bar-tacked through; and that there is also a problem with the tie-in loops, something I admit I don't quite understand. Since you are from SLC, and you appear to be defending their gear, can you respond to this?
I am interested in any info, as I climb in a BD primrose.
Thanks.
edit: Tripled-over webbing can be held together with duct tape and still hold any force generated in a climbing fall. Can you explain what you mean by this? Sorry if I sound ignorant; thanks.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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May 25, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
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coz,
I believe you are incorrect in you statement of BD's quality and safety.
YOUR FIRST STATEMENT IS WRONG WHEN YOU SAY "their belay loop is not bar tacked all the way through, making it much weaker than most."
You appear to be ignorant of the fact that there is an extra layer sewn over the bar tacking on the outside of the belay loop to protect it from wear.
habitat,
Take a second look at you harnesses belay loop and I think you we see what I'm talking about.
coz,
Your second comment is unclear, please elaborate with a better description and picture or two.
"Their tie in point, turns into a daisy chain pocket, if you do not clip your belay device to the loop of your rope. It could fail..."
Do you have an axe to grind with Black Diamond that we should know about?
I know BD is not perfect. I do not work for or represent BD in any way and at the moment I am not even using one of BD's harnesses.
Erik
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habitat
climber
grass pass
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May 25, 2010 - 10:38pm PT
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labrat,
I did as you suggested and it does appear that the belay loop has three "layers" to it, so conceivably, yes, it could be that the first two layers are bar-tacked together, with the third layer sewn over those, perhaps to protect the stitching, which seems like a sound idea.
Thanks for your feedback, appreciate it.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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May 25, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
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D has one of the weakest harnesses on the market, their belay loop is not bar tacked all the way through, making it much weaker than most.
Yeah, umm, no.
They are (indeed) sewn differently, but they are not weaker.
[This is totally n00bish discussion, but whatever.]
Take a piece of webbing, long enough to make a loop twice upon itself. Tape it shut. Seriously, just masking tape. In other words, mimic the basic construction of the belay loop on the harness you're peering at critically.
Try to pull it apart.
Oh wait, you can't? Yeah I thought so.
BD sews theirs differently, true. It's on purpose. The extra outer webbing covers the bar tacks (somewhat hidden) inside. As such, the stitching cannot be abraded if the belay loop is oriented with the naked side out.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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May 25, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
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I've had multiple hip bone grafts and the scars on my hips really test a harness...The metolius safetec and Waldo are the ticket.
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msiddens
Trad climber
Mountain View
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May 25, 2010 - 11:04pm PT
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I'm a huge Misty Mountain Cadillac fan but recently ventured to the UK. Happy with the new Wild Country Elite Adjustable...quite nice and not to $$
http://tinyurl.com/ygbt3fa
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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May 25, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
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Re: Werner's comment.
C'mon, somebody out there from Petzl or Misty Mountain has to read
this thread.
Give John a FREE harness. The guy will get you rad pictures
using it, no doubt!!!!!
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habitat
climber
grass pass
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May 25, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
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Okay...just got out my BD primrose, Metolius safetec, and Arc'teryx something-or-other.
All have a three-layer belay loop construction.
Metolius and Arc'teryx are sewn through all three layers.
BD is not.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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May 26, 2010 - 09:29am PT
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Let us put this misinformation that Coz is spreading to rest with real, scientific results.
http://207.135.152.14/scene/beta/qc_kp_archive.php#102706
After the only known modern belay loop failure (not a BD harness) KP tested various forms of wear including cutting many of the bar tacks. They held 5000 lbs.
A belay loop cut 90% of the way through holds over 700 lbs.
All harness belay loops on the market hold pretty much the same. 5000 lbs.
I don't work for BD but I climb on their gear. Some of their gear sucks, some kicks ass. When you start calling gear unsafe without any testing data to back it up you have crossed a line.
-brendan
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habitat
climber
grass pass
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May 26, 2010 - 11:04am PT
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A few excerpts from the article:
provide some super-unofficial non-complete experimental data on belay loops
Some Unofficial, Incomplete, One Data Point, for Curiosity Only Experiements
By no means are these experiments complete or conclusive as there are many variables that were not, but could be looked at like: belay loop construction (2 tacks vs. 4 tacks, protective non-structural layer over top of the tacks),
I don't know my way around a sewing machine. I will continue to use my BD harness because it is the safest one I have, being that it is the newest.
We need to be careful what we call science. One data point?! I don't believe what was presented in this article can pass for science.
And just going by the comments posted here, it seems the industry norm (if there is one) is a three-layer construction sewn through all three layers. Like I said, I wouldn't know, maybe that is overkill, and maybe BD has found a simpler and equally bomber way.
But I will be paying more attention to construction the next time I need a harness. Thanks all for the info. Always learning something new here!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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May 26, 2010 - 11:29am PT
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Coz said BD has one of the weakest harnesses on the market, their belay loop is not bar tacked all the way through, making it much weaker than most. Their tie in point, turns into a daisy chain pocket, if you do not clip your belay device to the loop of your rope. It could fail...I would never use one.
Bullsh#t. Black Diamond tests the crap out of their harness's, they are very strong and secure, and there's never been a belay loop fail in the field that I've ever heard of. AND you ain't going to see one either. For the record, I don't work for - or even like, Black Diamond harness's. but that's sh#t slagging Coz and very misleading. I own a Misty Mt Cadillac, 2 Sonics and 2 Metolius Waldos, but I just prefer the Misty Mt and Metolius over the BD, for the fit. The Metolius Waldos in particular are way cush and comfy!
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The Wolf
Trad climber
Martinez, CA
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May 26, 2010 - 11:35am PT
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CAMP Quartz CR3: I bought one of these based on Chris Mac's review. Hands down the most comfortable harness I've ever owned.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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May 26, 2010 - 11:36am PT
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...turns into a daisy chain pocket, if you do not clip your belay device to the loop of your rope.
Isn't that true for just about ever harness out there? I would guess that the safetech doesn't have this problem but I'm asking because I think that every other harness is the same in this way.
Dave
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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May 26, 2010 - 11:41am PT
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It seems you are missing the big picture. Belay loops are incredibly strong and overbuilt. They will never fail unless incredibly misused.
By abrading the bar tacks many of them were destroyed. I can't imagine any real world scenario where the difference between 4,000 lbs and 5,000 lbs holding force on a belay loop could matter. Your vaporized bones and organs would ooze out of the harness well before it broke.
Returning to the topic:
Any modern harness produced today is incredibly bomber. Choose the one that fits your needs the best.
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lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
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May 26, 2010 - 11:44am PT
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Their tie in point, turns into a daisy chain pocket, if you do not clip your belay device to the loop of your rope. It could fail...I would never use one.
Huh? Then where are all the harness failures? I agree this is pure BS without some facts. I also would prefer a Misty Mtn since they don't seem to wear out as fast as a BD, but they don't fit me as well (they have had some weird sizing in the past). My BD fits perfect and I have not had my tie in points "turn into a daisy chain pocket" after a fall. Clip my belay device to the loop of my rope? WTF
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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May 26, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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jeez - SO much BS around here. Chief - you aren't even referencing the right picture from the QC site. Did you even read it? Those are each different samples for different tests (50%, 75%, 90% cut thru)...you don't even show the one that BD says actually had the bar tacks cut. Quit freaking out and pay attention...jeez.
I'm assuming you aren't just spraying false info because you've got a chip on your shoulder for BD...
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 26, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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If you do a lot of OW, I'd say the BD belay loop with the bartacks protected from abrasion is arguably the safest construction. As for strength,
1. There have never been, as far as I know, any comparative tests of belay loop strength.
2. Asserting that the BD construction is "the weakest" seems to be based on an assumption that tacking through all three layers is significantly stronger than tacking through two. Is this assumption true?
3. If bar-tack abrasion weakens the belay loop, then even if it turns out that a fully stitched-through loop starts out stronger, it might end up weaker after some use. Once again, we don't actually have any data that I know of, but this possibility makes the claim for stitching-through even less certain.
4. No one seems to be complaining about the fact that the Petzl harnesses only have two bar tacks in the belay loop while most others have four. So which is "stronger," the Petzl sewn all the way through with only two tacks, or the BD with four tacks sewn through two layers and protected from abrasion?
By and large, criteria for selecting harnesses boil down to personal preferences and idiosyncracies. As harnesses get lighter and lighter, their safe lifetime probably decreases, and we all know the tragic consequences of pushing a harness far beyond its appropriate lifetime. But for those who retire their harnesses before their appearance scares old ladies and children, my guess is that this wrangling over stitching is completely irrelevant.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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May 26, 2010 - 12:08pm PT
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coz, i'd guess people are freaking out because the issue is...uh... fairly important to them. You make an unsubstantiated claim - YOUR HARNESS IS DANGEROUS!!! - and people pay attention if they have reason to trust you. They do...you've been around climbing a while.
You make the claim based on an observed construction methodology and NOT on any data. Your facts are simply - BD does X...but you have no data to support that it is actually LESS SAFE, as you claim. That's BS.
Frankly, I figured a guy that's been around the climbing world as long as you would have a better head on his shoulders. Disappointing.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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May 26, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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rgold, thank you (once again) for stating things clearly.
coz: It is my feelings having climbed for 35 years. I am expressing my thoughts.
I am just pointing out facts, pure simple facts.
And there we have it.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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May 26, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
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yeah +1 for rgold. Good post.
Kinda wraps it up for me. Not much else to say.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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May 26, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
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All the anger, never seen a belay loop fail, tell that to the Skinner family. Was that a BD harness Coz?
I worked for BD as a tech rep, BD does not tac their loops the same as most companies and they are not as strong. could you please provide some pull-test data to back up that accusation?
I am just pointing out facts, pure simple facts. No, you are making speculations.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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May 26, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
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I am also very disappointed by coz's statements. They are incorrect and misleading.
Chief and locker need to do some more reading.
Erik
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 26, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
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I wish the raw data from the harness testing sponsered by Arc'teryx was available.
Was summarized in a Rock and Ice magazine article, I seem to recall. I'd really like to see the testing numbers.
Recall that older harnesses did fairly well against the newer ones.
I've never had an issue with a belay loop on a harness, but, I retire mine fairly regularly. Just wish the BD harnesses fit me better. I've gone to a Metolious for rock climbing, but, the buckle is super hard to finish strappin' into (to the point I almost bruise my thumb and fingers putting it on). Figure I just got a tight one. Other than that, I find the harness (safe tech) super comfy especially for longer hanging periods.
-Brian in SLC
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ec
climber
ca
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May 26, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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If you are worrying about the sewing...worry no more...Yates
The only thing that might not pass your criteria may be the buckle.
Just talk to John Yates and tell him what you want.
Deuce you have enough clout to design your own through him...
 ec
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MeatBomb
Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
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May 26, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
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Coz: I work on the R and D of their harnesses,
Jeesus, no wonder they are "unsafe".
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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May 26, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
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Goodbye coz! Amazing what happens when we try discussing the facts vs. feelings and past history.
Erik
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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May 26, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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No anger Coz, but I don't think that you are not pointing out facts. Rgold is pointing out facts, you are speculating on how shitty Black Diamonds stuff is. I've seen lots of BD testing on their harness, they test the sh#t out of them, they make high quality products and those are the real facts.
coz said: If you do not know that bar tacking all three layers is stronger, then go figure out on your own. Call BD they will be happy to show you the data. It is so basic. Todd died on an Arteryx harness (I heard) that has a far stronger belay loop, one that is bar tac all the way through, Petzl also bar tacs all the way through, as does just about everyone. There is no speculation, it's just is a fact. It's such a basic thing, you don't need data. I work on the R and D of their harnesses, wore them for years, I do not like the belay loop, and don't trust it.
So, I am done posting I have made my point and it is a fact.
Yup: Todd's was the only harness I've heard break and it was an Arteryx not a BD. You have some facts and that is one of them, that and the way the bar tacks are constricted, but you don't know what it would test too. Other than that, bring some testing info. I would not bet money that any Metolius would not kick any Black Diamonds harness's ass, Metolius makes some burly beefy stuff, but that in no way in no way makes the BD's unsafe. Scott, it's only your opinion. Opinion sir! Bring some real testing data. Please don't think I'm being angry here or dissing on you, Your opinion is great, speaking for myself, I weight your opinion very very highly and love to hear it, but I'd suggest you present it as opinion when it is opinion and not facts: I'm just saying. I'd like to hear what Black Diamond says to all of this as well, if they do have a skeleton in the closet. I've talked with Bill Bellencourt, head product designer, about the C3 and other cams, and the design consideration, testing and checking that BD goes through is damn impressive to say the least.
Warm regards
ps, John, side note: don't forget that Russ at Fish Products makes a kick assed harness, probably too big for what you want.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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May 26, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
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What about that poor girl who fell on that helicopter tyrolean traverse when her bd harness failed? You know, that bolt gun rescue guy, and the hurt knee, on top of the spire. Buckles are clearly the weakpoint.
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ec
climber
ca
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May 26, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
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Ace Ventura, When Nature Calls...that buckle failure was rad...
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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May 26, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
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Chief,
KP's tests are over four years old and are in no way a response to Coz's unfounded claims. KP clearly states in the blog that he is cutting the webbing and not the bar tacks in most of the tests.
In the test where he did cut fully through two of the four bar tacks the belay loop still held up to CE standards. To me, this indicates that the bar tacks have very little influence on the strength of the belay loop. I strongly suggest you reread the report to correct your misunderstandings.
Want to try a fun experiment? Get some 1 inch tubular webbing and triple-wrap it like a belay loop. Hold it together with some duct tape. Now bounce test it. Now pull it with your truck.
The strength of a belay loop does not come from the bar tacks but rather from the friction of the the webbing.
Would you trust your pilot to fix your airplane? Why would Coz have any idea about physics, engineering or structural testing?
Again, I don't work for BD, but I am a fierce opponent of unfounded fear mongering such as Coz's claims.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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May 26, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
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Chief and Locker,
Then talk about what you like and use instead of choking on your feet after talking and raising questions about harnesses you know nothing about and are too ............ to figure out.
Erik
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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May 26, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
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lol...why do i bother...?
I truly hope that this is not the norm for any QA/QC individual in describing their eq testing to any of their customer's. Misleading info such as this one is not very professional IMO.
Just saying....
Thanks....
At no point does KP indicate the three tests you reference have anything to do with bar tack damage. They are simply tests of failure when the belay loop is partially cut through. They really have nothing to do with this discussion.
My point exactly. I am not the one that introduced this test to substantiate a claim to counter Coz's statement. I merely brought forth the point that you so clearly elude to.
Thanks for agreeing with me.
riiiiiight...
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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May 26, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
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locker,
You are missing the point. My main problem with coz's statements is him saying BD harnesses are unsafe. This is simply not true. He has no facts to support this argument. (Only feelings and his vast experience.) No accidents cited. No close calls cited. No substandard strength data. Before he abandoned this conversation he had not supported any of his accusations dealing with safety.
I acknowledge that the bar tacks on BD harnesses do not go completely thru the visible portion of the belay loop. It does not make them unsafe!
I will be surprised if BD does not contact coz privately. His comments should be retracted.
Erik
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 26, 2010 - 10:33pm PT
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Please do indicate where I do not show the actual cutting of the Sewn Through Four Bar Tacks that are in question here by Coz's claim and my original post regarding the "Cutting through Tests" by KP... please.
2 of 4 tacks cut—3970 lbf:
All tacks heavily abraded across file surface—5280 lbf:
All tacks heavily abraded across file surface—5338 lbf:
All tacks heavily abraded across file surface—7429 lbf:
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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May 26, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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May 27, 2010 - 01:23am PT
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Locker,
Do you think your BD harness is safe?
Erik
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WBraun
climber
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May 27, 2010 - 01:30am PT
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PROBABLY safe
Is there proof?
smiley emoticon here :-)
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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May 27, 2010 - 01:57am PT
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locker,
I went back a read that you think they are probably safe. Sorry I missed it previously. I seemed to be more focused on coz and it seemed you were blindly following his lead. I do understand supporting people you know and respect but his statments were over the line.
Erik ( :
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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May 27, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
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blindly following
Fair analogy for many of the statements that try to be coherent arguments around here.
I can't (won't) speak for anyone else, but I am more likely to trust someone's judgment if they make mostly coherent, mostly gracious, mostly defensible arguments... most of the time.
And on the flip side I am inclined to NOT trust someone's judgment if they make mostly intransigent, mostly incoherent, mostly indefensible arguments... ever.
What's that Talking Head's tune? Stop Making Sense? This ain't about bartacks, this is about listening to (and by extension trusting implicitly) persons who DO. NOT. MAKE. SENSE.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 27, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
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With regard to the newer no-double-back aka speed-adjust harnesses, I've wondered: do you suppose there is any real chance that you could catch the buckle on a nubbin in a squeeze and loosen the belt while you're climbing?
Someone mentioned this, I think in the comments on the SuperTopo harness review.
I think we spend a lot of time (not necessarily unwisely) guarding against very low-probability events, and this type of loosening would certainly qualify as low-probability. Since we don't actually have any real knowledge of the probabilities involved (and few if any of us have any idea how we would adjust our behavior even in the presence of somehow known probabilities), it pretty much comes down to how much this worries us.
I don't do enough offwidth to be even remotely concerned, although I could imagine, on days of high nameless dread, putting a stopper half-hitch around that buckle before starting up a terrifying squeeze. On the other hand, if the Wide was my everyday cup of tea, I could see going for a double-back buckle, which I dislike, primarily for their inconvenience when adjusting clothing.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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May 27, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
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Coz says: (re bartack strength)
"There is no speculation, it's just is a fact. It's such a basic thing, you don't need data."
Does this belong on the religion thread?
A couple of other points:
-Petzel belay loops have only 3 bartacks
Where is the matching concern (hysteria?) for other links in the anchor chain- sling, cam sling, etc.- all theoretically weaker than the belay loop?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 27, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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The claim that bartacking through all three sections is self-evidently stronger than bartacking through two sections is not self-evident to me. One reason why is that I've heard and read many times that bartacked runners, when tested, almost always break somewhere else---in other words, the tacked section is already stronger than the runner material. If this is true for belay loops, then tacking through more layers won't make any difference at all, since you'd just be reinforcing a section that isn't where the break will happen.
But the real issue isn't whether or not bartacking through all three layers is stronger. The issue is whether whatever extra strength obtained, if any, means anything in terms of the performance of the harness.
In this regard, the BD loops, with their two-layer tacking, are rated at 15 kN, as they have to be for certification. For most modern climbing ropes, that is about 70% higher than the load you could get by holding a factor-2 fall directly on the harness with no rope slippage. (Lotsa luck with that, sparky.) You just can't break such a loop in good condition, and still couldn't break it after it lost about 60% of its rated strength. (There is, by the way, a good probability that the actual strength of the loop exceeds the rated strength.)
And short of the factor-two scenario, the belay loop is probably rarely subjected to more than 4 kN at most; even that corresponds to a pretty burly catch. We regularly expect the single-layer bartacked loop on our cams to take potentially greater loads than the harness belay loop.
I'm sorry if this sounds disrespectful, but the only thing we learned from the Todd Skinner tragedy, which now must be mentioned every time someone worries about the strength of their belay loop, is that even the most bomber gear can break if it is determinedly misused. That accident has nothing to tell us about bartacks through two or three layers. I'm not sure anyone besides the rangers know whether the bartacks on that belay loop failed or whether, as I think likely, it broke in another spot, in which case its already overwhelming irrelevance to the present discussion would only be increased.
I guess I now have to mention that I'm not a user of BD harnesses and have no association of any kind with BD. It is the small details in harnesses that provide the only real choice criteria. I have yet to hear anything that would even remotely suggest to me that belay loop construction is an issue.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 28, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
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How about a Camp Thong...
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 29, 2010 - 09:34pm PT
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Sorry to rise to the Bait here, but I wouldn't worry for even a second. He's passionately concerned about the safety of his clients. Let's get a grip here; the ability to speculate about engineering choices on the internet has nothing to do with climbing or guiding competence.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 30, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
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John- Unless you are heading into a striptease squeeze, pick up a Wild Things Wall harness for all day comfort and burly construction. I love mine for general use outings and walls. I would lose the legloop buckles for excess slot work and sew in 1" flat butterfly sliders.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 30, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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Hmmmm. In the last month, I've climbed with someone who still just uses a swami (tied from 2" tubular), and someone else who uses a swami plus legloops. Admittedly neither climbs a great deal, and hasn't for some years, but still...
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
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wow, lots of responses (and classic supertopo controversy)!
Thanks for all the input (and thanks Werner for the flattering words).
I went with the Misty Mountain Turbo Harness with a "Quick Adjust" buckle. Looks super nice. What great folks there, same as it was in the old days: could talk to the people on the factory floor, fast service, high quality. Incredibly refreshing for this old dad and former threadworker to see in the present "Climbing Industry"!
Really there's no question: good quality climbing gear made in the USA by climbers.
Thanks Mike and Goose!
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| Messages 1 - 69 of total 69 in this topic |
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