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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 25, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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Religulous, the word, describes religious ideas, beliefs, or claims that are patently absurd, comical, or ridiculous.
Believing that the words we use matter...
It is an honor to show my support publicly for this newly coined word. Thanks, Bill Maher. Yes, I believe religulous should have a place, insofar as it doesn't already, in the English lexicon and in every thinking person's vocabulary.
Religious beliefs are ideas, too:
(1) The idea that we humans are fallen and flawed and must suffer (because of what our forefathers did) is religulous.
(2) The idea that we need to believe in God Jesus to be forgiven for our fallen nature and to be empowered to live forever is religulous.
Welcome to the 21st century. It's already a revolution and it's only just begun.
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Robb
Social climber
The other "Magic City on the Plains"
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May 25, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
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What do you hope to acomplish by continuing to post this stuff?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 03:55pm PT
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Clarity in thought and practice. In the practice of living. Clarity in discourse regarding many subjects that relate to the practice of living. Some evolution of belief would be nice. I'm hopeful about that. In the interest of better living.
Most esp, in this thread, some popularization of the word religulous, however small. (Or knott.)
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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May 25, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
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here, here!!!
good idea
thanks bill
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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May 25, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
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your little movie poster says 2008. Get with the times, and get a life.
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Robb
Social climber
The other "Magic City on the Plains"
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May 25, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
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"Evolution of belief"
Which leads to what?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
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It has a place.
Traditional fundamentalist Christians who don't like the thread would be right to consider it blowback ...
...for their religulous ideas expressed as antagonistic political pressure.
Example: Against a good man, Dr. Jack Kevorkian. -Who was imprisoned for 8 years for his avant gard views and actions concerning death and dying. Who in good spirits I just watched on Bill Maher. Jack Kevorkian, a personal hero, way to go.
There were religulous ideas concerning (a) death and dying and (b) what "God wants" that played a role in putting him behind bars. Only a fool or liar wouldn't ack this.
At least it offers something in the way of a counterpoint to that crazy Ark thread.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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May 25, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
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I'm a devout agnostic and I watched this film with high hopes of being enlightened & entertained. Very little enlightenment occurred and was only mildly entertained. IMHO, Maher created a schizophrenic film because he couldn't decide whether he was trying to be serious or funny. He ended up creating a mockumentary. That said there were a couple of choice scenes like the gay healer and the biblical natural history park.
The 1st part of the film Zeitgeist provides much better insight into the history of religion, especially christianity.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
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Tradster- I didn't particularly like the film either. Pretty shallow. But I do like the word. Concise. To the point. I'd like to see it gain popularity in the English lexicon.
EDIT 1:11p Tradster- So it doesn't have to devolve into that. It doesn't when we consider the evolution of other things. Sure, religulous is thought provoking but it is not synonymous with religious.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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May 25, 2010 - 04:10pm PT
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I hear ya HFCS...I'm going to run before the fireworks, finger pointing and name calling start
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
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Why here? I believe in the Taco campfire. This campfire is as good as any other.
Why now? It makes sense that these issues are coming out now. This being the information age. Everybody waking up to the fact that the long-standing custom of giving religions a free pass on their "ideas" is weak sauce. Civilization progresses through ideomachy (war of ideas). Better ideomachy over the internet than over real trenches in Pakistan.
I'm a believer. I believe in higher achievement in the practice of living through higher education. (Words and idioms, by the way, one doesn't typically hear in the Abrahamic religions, esp Christianity and Islam. How come?)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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Robb- I thought you valued concise arguments at least once in awhile around the fire. Even OT. (As opposed to all the juvie rants.)
"Evolution of belief"
Which leads to what?
What children don't learn in Sunday School (and most likely medrasahs, too) is that beliefs are "behavioral drivers". Beliefs matter. There is a direct link between belief and behavior (actions and deeds). Evolution of belief leads to evolution of behavior. Which on so many levels is what many if not most of us seek.
Ghandi: Be the change you seek in the world.
By the way, were ETI's watching us right now... I'd rather them reading threads from wherever (e.g., Taco) on our attempts and struggles to work out better practices for ourselves in the practice of living (esp given the challenging times we're living in) than threads modeled after the National Enquirer that get 1000 plus posts worth of attention.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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May 25, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
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My Religulous nature was born of 'Stuperstition' and...
don't tell anyone but I am also 'Telepathetic' !
'n I know......
Im'a gunna die !!!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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May 25, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
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An interesting post t*r. Recently the loaves and fishes spoke to me of the invisible world that we cannot see but exists. Like the atom, the wind, light traveling from the sun to the earth. Thought about this for several years. Could there be a spiritual mathematics that we have not even explored ? Just asking. Searching beyond the common thought for things that are not seen, but exist. lynne
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
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It's also about connecting the dots.
When the religulous beliefs of supernaturalists through "trickle over" get turned into religulous laws, policies and regulations --that in turn feed back to express those religulous beliefs-- well, that's when naturalists should get involved (and when naturalists like me Caughtinside "get a life," get involved however we can) and take a stand.
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Robb
Social climber
The other "Magic City on the Plains"
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May 25, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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HFCS
I do indeed enjoy a concise argument vs. the (as you ever so politely put it)juvinile rants. Thank you again for being civil in your discourse.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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May 25, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
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Posting on the taco is taking a stand?
Might try aiming a little higher.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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May 25, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
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i'm juvenile. i rant.
but lots of whispers make up a scream.
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Robb
Social climber
The other "Magic City on the Plains"
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May 25, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
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Pate,
You of all people on this forum posting this
"But it is a chance to call out the F*#kheads"
is HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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May 25, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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Any thread based around the works of Maher is pretty weak....just sayin'.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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May 25, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
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High Fructose,
This one's gonna be great too.
Since you seem to be into silly movies, watch 'em both in one night! A real double header.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
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Hey, Caughtinside, taking a stand in any public discourse no matter how small-- in order to defend what you believe or in order to defend the decisions you’ve made regarding your practice of living-- is a noble pursuit. And that’s just the way it is.
EDIT Pate's a bulldog. When called for. Like T.H. Huxley. I thank Hypercrates (the deification of Fate) everyday that we at the Taco have him. To put the crackpots in their place. To discredit the deceit, the hypocrisies, the religulousness.
EDIT Micronut and Blue, the tagteam Christians, this thread is not about your religion or Bill Maher's movie. Perhaps re-read. It is about the new word religulous and your religion's religulous elements. Remember, I'm for evolution: the evolution of belief, the evolution of the "practice" of living. Which means keeping the good that religions have to offer but leaving behind their absurdities.
I bet as the days and weeks unfold, we're sure to see more religulous goings-on the world.
Bill Maher's the best.
EDIT 5:31p Can't disagree with that!
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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May 25, 2010 - 08:30pm PT
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Well then the taco is just loaded with noble f*#king idiots then isn't it?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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May 25, 2010 - 08:35pm PT
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I bet as the days and weeks unfold, we're sure to see more religulous goings-on the world.
Not only are you deluded, but you just might be an idiot!
Based on a silly-stupid Maher movie???? Fool....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 25, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
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I own the movie.
It is only worth watching to see Bill M. condemn himself. It is full of hate and cherry-picked hypocrites of faith. At some point in the movie Bill makes the remark it isn't going to be good for him on Judgement Day, or he alludes to this. It's the only thing he got right.
Although, he does point out the hypocracy within religion. That is worthy to know. But don't be fooled. If Bill M. can see it, don't you think the Big Guy upstairs sees it also? Of course he does. And that is why Jesus addressed the danger of hypocracy constantly. But Bill M. never talks about that.
The other reason to watch it is because he does go to these Holy places spoken of in religious texts, the actual places and shows you what it looks like today. So turn the audio off, and watch the visuals and all the historical sites he visits. That is worth watching.
Bill M., you should listen to your mother and those who have faith. But some may be too far gone to turn around. Some have a conscience that is seared. Bill M., maybe one of those. There is always hoping though that one day he will turn around.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 09:25pm PT
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Well, said, Bulldog. Yours esp-
"In this day and age I really don't believe in pussyfooting around the issues. On the Internet the little man has a chance to be heard. I post my words coming from an educated stance. Unlike many here at ST I'm not just belching half baked personal ideals into words. I engage the right people in serious discourse. However crackpots get the whip... Climbers are supposed to be a tough crowd..."
But I gotta ask, did you twist Klimmer's arm and force him to post to this thread? Are you blackmailing him? Is anybody? After all those accusations of Haters! and Tormentors! and Bullies! --you know-- I'd just like to be clear, was his coming over here involuntary in any way?
EDIT 6:30p Wes, I hear ya. About the drivel, you just have to pass over it. Reminded of Twain right now, I am: "it's not what they don't know, it's what they know for sure that just ain't so."
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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May 25, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
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You guys put Bill M. on some kind of pedestal like he speaks the rightoeus truth. It's funny actually, as you dismiss all religion and spirituality, yet promote the crap spewed by Bill.
God help ya...
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
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I post my words coming from an educated stance. says big overblown deluded pate along with his side kick leg humping pussy ass corn nut who couldn't think his way out of a paper bag without humping some ones leg along with it.
If the pussy ass corn nut actually revealed his real identity I'd have some resemblance of respect. Instead we only get an anonymous leg humping parroting idiot hanging on others coat tails.
This sh'it isn't about religion or God or any of that except to show yourselves as how well you can manipulate and juggle words around.
Those words have no real power and no soul.
Just pure egotistical bullshit as evident in all your useless defenses about why you post here in these stupid threads.
What an ugly useless and disgusting tools you are ......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
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Brawny- You're still upset. From BITD. Get off my grass...
Pate, I really liked his exchange with Dr. Jack Kevorkian from last month on Real Time, 23apr, don't know if you watched it.
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
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And I was right all along both you and Pate are weak.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland
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May 25, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
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So Pate is HFCS just another avatar of yours?
The writing styles are very similar and the constant ball cupping
you two do back and forth is gayer that a bouquet of penis's.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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May 25, 2010 - 10:16pm PT
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"He was a JEW Klimmer. Not one of yours."
Just a personal history note according to Mr. Maher, himself, Pate. Maher was raised in his Irish father’s Catholic faith,…he says he wasn’t aware his mother was Jewish until his teenage years.
According to his interview with Larry King, Maher's family stopped attending church when he was in his early teens, reportedly because of Maher's father's disagreement with birth control dogma.
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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May 25, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
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Modern religions suck ass as a whole. They had a time and a place. They are more than likely the result of evolved social behaviors that resulted in formations of early communities but they have become passe. As we have learned how to sanitize, fully cook pork and avoid cross-contamination between certain types of foods the customs and restriction especially have become arcane.
The biggest thing that sticks in my craw is that every major religion has the golden rule as its central tenant but then basic respect for people and compassion are quickly lost as adherents cling to and espouse the more dogmatic commandments that fit to some insecurity or latent self-loathing that they wish to exorcise from self by imposing on others.
Werner, of all the people on here I find it funny you espousing religion as you I disdain because you have been hostile to me more than once for nothing in other forums where your opinion was completely unsolicited and unwarranted.
Pate and HFCS could very well be one but who cares, both do tend to keep attacks pertinent and most often humorous... though sometimes harsh.
Hypocrisy is the biggest problem with religions and morals imposing people. And it is ironic that the party of small government and free enterprise is also the one that takes religion to its core and tries to impose those moral standards on everyone.
I think we should all color pictures of Mohammed on a postcard and mail it to that jolly old guy up in the sky sitting on a cloud and dispatching his angels down to do miracles in the form of plain old everyday events that fit into the rules of biology and physics that people have to think they can bring to themselves through prayer as to not seem so helpless.
Religulous!! Rock on!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 25, 2010 - 10:59pm PT
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Wes!
Thanks for posting the link to "Religulus!
I just wanted to point out a very significant error on Mr. Maher's part by him stating that Miggido is the "very spot that God is going to come down and END the world and rescue His believers." is not true.
No where in the Bible does it say this, and no Christians/Pastors believe or preach this.
Miggido is where the armies of the world will congregate, outside of Jerusalem, before they wage their attack against it. God will intervene and destroy them on that spot. Otherwise THEY would have destroyed the world with nuclear warfare.
Jesus will return with His believers at that time and set up His 1,000 year Kingdom here on earth.
There will be many people still here on the earth at that time...at least a billion or two.
So, right off the bat he(Bill Maher)gets it wrong...
Back to the movie.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 25, 2010 - 11:09pm PT
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"He was a JEW Klimmer. Not one of yours."
Just a personal history note according to Mr. Maher, himself, Pate. Maher was raised in his Irish father’s Catholic faith,…he says he wasn’t aware his mother was Jewish until his teenage years.
According to his interview with Larry King, Maher's family stopped attending church when he was in his early teens, reportedly because of Maher's father's disagreement with birth control dogma.
Yep, what Jennie said. I forgot that. Haven't watched the film in a while. He explains that clearly though in the moviie, I just didn't remember.
Bill M. makes some good points, but then the Anti-Christ in him comes raging out full blast and that is where he truly looses it, and he turns to full on scary hate. With that kind of seathing hate it would be easy to see someone pick up a gun and start eliminating everyone they don't agree with starting with those who put their trust in Jesus, and all other peoples of faith and religions there after.
Atheism is a religion. It is the faith of NO GOD(S).
I say, "prove it." You can't.
We say there is GOD.
And you say, "prove it." At this moment we do have evidence, but then you just say it is all just random chance and it doesn't mean anything. I and many others disagree. The evidence that GOD exists is overwhelming and getting more complete everyday.
There is nothing you can point to and say, "See I told you . . . NO GOD." But there is much that we can point to and say, "See, GOD."
Sometimes I recognize that same hate toward those of faith here on ST and it truly is not pleasant. Scary even. I would check your hearts and see where you are truly at.
Some here at ST are becoming what they hate right before their very own eyes.
I'm a Christian, but I will communicate and talk to anyone of any faith, or no faith, agnostic or even atheists and listen to what they have to say. I'm actually interested in what they have to say. I may respectfully disagree in the end, but I'm not going to throw hate at them and disrespect. I would rather leave knowing we can talk another day, seperate without hurt feelings, perhaps climb together in the very near future, or even sit down and have a meal together and relate and talk like fellow human beings.
Some here on ST I don't think I would care to ever want to meet due to the severe mistreatment here at ST that I've experienced and what I have witnessed others have had to go through. Not pretty at all.
Don't be Bigots. You better look deep inside your heart and eradicate it before it is too late.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 11:11pm PT
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EOE- you have earned a warm and honorable place at the fire. Thank you. And what you said about the irony and schizophrenia (for lack of a better term) of the Repubs was spot on.
Wes- Excellent USAGE examples. Welcome back, too. YOUR links, by the way, are always pertinent when not hilarious.
Another useful term: "religulous reasoning" (to see it in context, see Klimmer's post)
EDIT 8:21p EOE- ROFLMAO!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 25, 2010 - 11:21pm PT
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Wes!
Once again, i was just pointing out that Mr. Maher stated that "The book of Revelation says that God will come down and destroy/end the world"
I here people like Bill etc. saying this all the time, obviously they haven't read what they are quoting.
Wes- "So glad those ancients were able to predict..."
Regarding the Prophets, they also prophesied that China would amass an army of 200 million long before there were even one hundred million people in the whole world...
In the mid 60's Mao said that China had the capability of forming an army of 200 million!
They(and Jesus)also prophesied that Israel would be scattered and persecuted and return to the promised land after so many generations...etc.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 25, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
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Come on...the Bible is a bunch of mindless blabber. Sure there are good things in it but there are also numerous passages condoning murder and slavery. You can find anything you want in the Bible good, bad and indifferent. It is an antiquated, unevenly written monstrosity.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 25, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
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EorE, who are you really?
You must be HFCS or Pate I'm guessing, since you only have two posts.
C'mon guys. That is cheating!
Be who you are (bigots!) and stop making up more avatars. Unbelievable.
Donini,
How the heck do you relate to anyone down in SA, with all the Catholicism surrounding you there?
Or how do you relate to anyone of faith in any country you climb in?
Let me guess, you never bring up politics or religion when out of the US, right? And if anyone does, quickly change the subject. Right?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 25, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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Klimmer,
When I travel it is for many reasons and discussing religion is not one of them. If, as sometimes happens, the subject of religion comes up, I express my views freely.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 11:44pm PT
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Klimmer nails it!
"Donini,
How the heck do you relate to anyone down in SA, with all the Catholicism surrounding you there?
Or how do you relate to anyone of faith in any country you climb in?
Let me guess, you never bring up politics or religion when out of the US, right? And if anyone does, quickly change the subject. Right?"
It's exactly why the archaic religulous groupthink needs to be broken up. And IS being broken up. Brick by brick. As Pate said earlier, it is choking. Both in this country and across continents and around the world.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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May 25, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
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My friend Connor e-mailed the piece below to me today. I think it's a bit of wisdom from a man who some ST'ers would brand as foolish just because he espouses a personal belief that can be classed as religious. Really though, it seems to me he just points out the obvious inutility of thinking you are correct in your thinking, and everyone else who thinks differently is wrong. In this respect, the scientific way of doing life can be juxtaposed with the spiritual paths, and on the material plane, be shown to be superior. Ergo, all religious people are deluded fools. I am in no way religious, but I've seen and experienced too much to think that science has all the answers now, or can ever find all the answers.
Ohhh, well then...I guess I've just outed myself as the fool that I really am - one who has more questions than answers - and one who feels more enlightenned when he listens to the ramblings of fellow humans of all persuasions, than when he's trying to impress upon those he feels are intellectually inferior to him; their intellectual inferiority - and his own superiority - in tones that are designed to inhibit growth in the minds on either side of the divide.
-FoolishJello
By TENZIN GYATSO:
Published: May 24, 2010 New York Times
WHEN I was a boy in Tibet, I felt that my own Buddhist religion must be the best — and that other faiths were somehow inferior. Now I see how naïve I was, and how dangerous the extremes of religious intolerance can be today.
Though intolerance may be as old as religion itself, we still see vigorous signs of its virulence. In Europe, there are intense debates about newcomers wearing veils or wanting to erect minarets and episodes of violence against Muslim immigrants. Radical atheists issue blanket condemnations of those who hold to religious beliefs. In the Middle East, the flames of war are fanned by hatred of those who adhere to a different faith.
Such tensions are likely to increase as the world becomes more interconnected and cultures, peoples and religions become ever more entwined. The pressure this creates tests more than our tolerance — it demands that we promote peaceful coexistence and understanding across boundaries.
Granted, every religion has a sense of exclusivity as part of its core identity. Even so, I believe there is genuine potential for mutual understanding. While preserving faith toward one’s own tradition, one can respect, admire and appreciate other traditions.
An early eye-opener for me was my meeting with the Trappist monk Thomas Merton in India shortly before his untimely death in 1968. Merton told me he could be perfectly faithful to Christianity, yet learn in depth from other religions like Buddhism. The same is true for me as an ardent Buddhist learning from the world’s other great religions.
A main point in my discussion with Merton was how central compassion was to the message of both Christianity and Buddhism. In my readings of the New Testament, I find myself inspired by Jesus’ acts of compassion. His miracle of the loaves and fishes, his healing and his teaching are all motivated by the desire to relieve suffering.
I’m a firm believer in the power of personal contact to bridge differences, so I’ve long been drawn to dialogues with people of other religious outlooks. The focus on compassion that Merton and I observed in our two religions strikes me as a strong unifying thread among all the major faiths. And these days we need to highlight what unifies us.
Take Judaism, for instance. I first visited a synagogue in Cochin, India, in 1965, and have met with many rabbis over the years. I remember vividly the rabbi in the Netherlands who told me about the Holocaust with such intensity that we were both in tears. And I’ve learned how the Talmud and the Bible repeat the theme of compassion, as in the passage in Leviticus that admonishes, “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
In my many encounters with Hindu scholars in India, I’ve come to see the centrality of selfless compassion in Hinduism too — as expressed, for instance, in the Bhagavad Gita, which praises those who “delight in the welfare of all beings.” I’m moved by the ways this value has been expressed in the life of great beings like Mahatma Gandhi, or the lesser-known Baba Amte, who founded a leper colony not far from a Tibetan settlement in Maharashtra State in India. There he fed and sheltered lepers who were otherwise shunned. When I received my Nobel Peace Prize, I made a donation to his colony.
Compassion is equally important in Islam — and recognizing that has become crucial in the years since Sept. 11, especially in answering those who paint Islam as a militant faith. On the first anniversary of 9/11, I spoke at the National Cathedral in Washington, pleading that we not blindly follow the lead of some in the news media and let the violent acts of a few individuals define an entire religion.
Let me tell you about the Islam I know. Tibet has had an Islamic community for around 400 years, although my richest contacts with Islam have been in India, which has the world’s second-largest Muslim population. An imam in Ladakh once told me that a true Muslim should love and respect all of Allah’s creatures. And in my understanding, Islam enshrines compassion as a core spiritual principle, reflected in the very name of God, the “Compassionate and Merciful,” that appears at the beginning of virtually each chapter of the Koran.
Finding common ground among faiths can help us bridge needless divides at a time when unified action is more crucial than ever. As a species, we must embrace the oneness of humanity as we face global issues like pandemics, economic crises and ecological disaster. At that scale, our response must be as one.
Harmony among the major faiths has become an essential ingredient of peaceful coexistence in our world. From this perspective, mutual understanding among these traditions is not merely the business of religious believers — it matters for the welfare of humanity as a whole.
Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama, is the author, most recently, of “Toward a True Kinship of Faiths: How the World’s Religions Can Come Together.”
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 26, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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Hi Klimmer,
And what's the problem with respecting the locals ?
Or do the simple unwashed crave your salvation ?
JB,
Just my point. I relate by listening and understanding their points of view and ask questions about their faith or religion, if they have one.
I think it is very important to know the local customs and religion before going to a particular country (the cultural geography), just as much as knowing the physical geography of the country before going.
I'm not there to proselytize or disrespect them. I listen. If they ask what I believe I tell them in a kind non-judgemental manner. If they want to know more they can read (unless of course that country outlaws the Holy Bible). If they would want a copy of the Holy Bible, and I had one I could give them, then I would, as long as I'm not going to jail for doing so. Some places that will wind you up in prison ;-0
I am no threat. It is called human compassion, and respect. They might give me a copy of their religious text or Holy Book also. Good trade.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 26, 2010 - 12:06am PT
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Pate,
OK, I will believe you.
How about HFCS?
Seems very strange that EorE just showed up on this thread with only 2 posts so far, and here, and seems to be very much in line with your and HFCS line of thinking (and attitude).
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 12:12am PT
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The thing of beauty is that EOE and HFCS and Pate and Weschrist are not one and the same.
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Robb
Social climber
The other "Magic City on the Plains"
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May 26, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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Pate,
"You are a condescending as#@&%e"
Might want to spend a few minutes in the mirror before you post that again,just sayin..........
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go-B
climber
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May 26, 2010 - 12:21am PT
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Fructose comes out of the closet!
It's about what you choose, and you have the right to be a snowball headed for hell! We can only point the way and say your headed toward a cliff without any brakes!
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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May 26, 2010 - 12:24am PT
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"Ohhh, well then, I guess I've just outed myself as the fool that I really am - one who has more questions than answers - and one who feels more enlightenned when he listens to the ramblings of fellow humans of all persuasions, than when he's trying to impress upon those he feels are intellectually inferior to him, their intellectual inferiority, and his own superiority, in tones that are designed to inhibit growth in the minds on either side of the divide."
-FoolishJello
It's good to see you back here my friend, with your foolishness (I call it humble and compassionate).
I guess I'm always stumped when folks call foul on the bible, as the message is clearly; the LOVE of God for His creation ! Pretty simple stuff. And all he adds is: go and do likewise ! Also simple stuff.
jellosfoolish friend flanders!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 12:28am PT
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Wes- "Fuking religeousurd"
That's the best you can do in response to the FACT that prophesy came to pass when Mao stated that they had the ability to form an army of 200 million soldiers! When there were not even 100 million people on earth.
The UNITED NATIONS gave the Jews BACK what was rightfully theirs...The Promised Land!
Wes- "What common thread..."
Obviously the Old Testament(and NT).
BTW, Israel and the Jewish people are still Gods chosen people!
"I will bless those who choose to bless, and curse those who choose to curse..."
Hitler and the Natzi's should have taken that verse to heart!
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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May 26, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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I am Pate. I always have been and I always will be, and I am not another.
Obviously I'm not Pate and no, I am not HFCS either. I have a regular avatar I have been using for years but have not posted in a long time. Previously it has always been about climbing or dialogues with IRL friends I have on here.
I have been watching some of the OT threads lately with interest, specifically the moon ark thread and have wanted to jump in but abstained because I didn't want to get sucked into that hogwash with any real commitment. That is why I am using a new avatar because now I can walk away form this without worry about other people getting the last word and my honor not being defended.
If anyone is really offended by anything I have or do say, message me and I will open a real dialogue with you outside of this. If you do open a dialogue to proselytize then it will be terminated immediately. I have participated heavily in three different major religions and they contributed nothing to my moral fiber that couldn't be gleaned from common sense combined with the golden rule.
Klimmer, I am sorry for picking on you. Your religiosity is only mild to moderate compared to a few others here who I think are more deserving of vitriol saying things like...
God help ya....
and oops, I think TripL7 editing something posted earlier about hell or gods wrath/judgment.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 12:46am PT
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EOE- "and oops T7 editing something..."
What did i edit??
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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May 26, 2010 - 12:48am PT
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Jello: Thank you for “posting up” on this thread and sharing the NY Times article.
I have also been distressed with the “bickering” on what some of us consider a “climbing forum.”
Despite assertions: that these arguments go on around the campfire------I think the anonymity of the forum brings out the worst in us.
Maybe those that love to bicker will want to migrate to the bickering paradise:
http://www.virtualcampfire.org/viewforum.php?f=2
I am impressed that the last eight people that posted on this thread ignored your thoughts. Do any of you people have a climbing background--------or are you just “rabid posting dogs?”
TENZIN GYATSO:
Published: May 24, 2010 New York Times
My friend Connor e-mailed the piece below to me today. I think it's a bit of wisdom from a man who some ST'ers would brand as foolish just because he espouses a personal belief that can be classed as religious. Really though, it seems to me he just points out the obvious inutility of thinking you are correct in your thinking, and everyone else who thinks differently is wrong. In this respect, the scientific way of doing life can be juxtaposed with the spiritual paths, and on the material plane, be shown to be superior. Ergo, all religious people are deluded fools. I am in no way religious, but I've seen and experienced too much to think that science has all the answers now, or can ever find all the answers.
From Jeff Lowe:
Ohhh, well then, I guess I've just outed myself as the fool that I really am - one who has more questions than answers - and one who feels more enlightened when he listens to the ramblings of fellow humans of all persuasions, than when he's trying to impress upon those he feels are intellectually inferior to him, their intellectual inferiority, and his own superiority, in tones that are designed to inhibit growth in the minds on either side of the divide.
-FoolishJello
In closing:
I believe: you are all wiser and better------- than what you are posting---------- on this thread.
Everyone is capable of change------or you can prove me wrong?
Fritz
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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May 26, 2010 - 01:02am PT
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WesChrist! You now qualify as a "Rabid Posting Dog!" It appears you either do not read or are not capable of understanding previous posts.
Please move your comments to the "Rabid dog forum":
http://www.virtualcampfire.org/viewforum.php?f=2
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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May 26, 2010 - 01:18am PT
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Fritz I think you are suffering from a little "Rabid Posting Dog!" syndrome yourself, two out of three posts are yours slinging this insult.
Just because I didn't directly quote or reference Jello or the Dali Lama like you did doesn't mean I wasn't on topic and was just bickering. There are multiple threads in this thread and some of us will post following something without laying homage to it because they are involved in another thread.
That aside, I think my anecdote of heavy participation in three different religions and finding the golden rule common and singularly as helpful as anything else of the three dovetails nicely with that statement from Jello.
Lighten up a little and read between the lines, everything is not all black and white... or in this case heaven and hell.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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May 26, 2010 - 01:25am PT
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Flanders sums it up well......thanks Doug.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 01:28am PT
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Wes- "are you insane?"
It is now obvious that you like Bill Maher don't bother read what you are posting about etc.
The Prophet Joel in the second chapter of his book prophesied in regards to an army of 200 million, as did the Apostle/Prophet John in chapter 9 of Revelation.
Joel, as I am sure you are aware, was a Prophet in the 4th Century B.C.
The total world population was about 100 million in 400 B.C.
EDIT: Mao, with his statement in regards to an army of 200 million, was the fulfillment of that prophecy!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 01:53am PT
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They could and will at the drop of a hat(form an army of 200 million).
But you are missing the point in regards to "Religulous absurdity"...
HFCS- "Religulous...or claims that are patently ABSURD..."
Those two Bible verses(army of 200 million)were held as just that "Absurd" until the middle of the last century.
Along with the "absurd notion" that Israel/Jews would ever complete Biblical prophecy, and once again, live in the promised land.
And of course all the naysayers were silenced...
The next prophecy will be Israel being attacked by Persia(Iran)in a confederacy with Russia(and Libya, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and three other Persian Gulf country's.
Who woulda thunk such a thing over two thousand years ago when Russia was just a bunch of hicks at best?
EDIT: Read the news headlines regarding Russia and Iran.
No one will come to Israels aid(not even USA). But they will win.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 02:00am PT
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Wes- "I am use to complete sentences..."
777- "Regarding the Prophets, they also prophesied that China would amass an army of 200 million long before there were even 100 million people in the world."
Looks complete to me.
You LOOSE Wes!
And your to proud to admit it... or to apologize!
EDIT: "You can lead them to water but you can't make them drink!"
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 02:27am PT
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Fritz- "WesChrist, It appears you either do not read, or are not capable of understanding previous posts."
Well said Fritz!
Thanks!
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Brian
climber
California
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May 26, 2010 - 02:38am PT
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I'm going to stay out of this one, except to say that this...
I think the anonymity of the forum brings out the worst in us.
...is one of the truest things said so far.
There is a reason such posters are generally referred to as "anonymous cowards." I don't understand why, other than cowardice and a desire to poke the hornet's nest anonymously, people hide behind strange avatars. I don't. Jeff Lowe doesn't. Jim Donini doesn't. Jody Langford didn't. Werner Braun doesn't. People from all sides of these debates we have seem to be willing to put their name--either their real name or a very, very well known nickname (e.g., Largo)--to the opinions they espouse.
What the heck are the rest of you hiding from? Just asking.
Brian
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 26, 2010 - 03:46am PT
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I'm not sure why I read this thread through but I am glad I did. It is a classic case of tolerance, or even immunity, to wisdom.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 09:43am PT
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The "way through" is to distinguish the intelligent discourse from the crazy pinhead bickering. Which I don't find hard.
The purpose of the original post was to express support for the new word religulous and to express the view that it should have a place in the English lexicon and the thinking person's vocabulary.
Traditional Christian theology purports that... we humans are fallen and flawed and must suffer (because of what our naked forebears did once upon a time in a garden, because of trans-generational hand-me-down guilt). This is religulous. It is religulous precisely because millions of people, even though it's the 21st century, still take it literally, as reality, as opposed to myth or story.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 10:18am PT
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Brian- If you've been paying attention I don't abuse my anonymity, in other words I don't use my anonymity to flip anybody off or to call anybody names (e.g, leg humper). I use it to call out bs in sensitive areas. That's a distinction if you care to see it.
But don't deny the realities of political incorrectness or persecution in our world regarding minority views. It only shows naivete. Anonymity exists on the internet and at the Taco fire for the same reasons it exists at the voting booth.
Also, don't deny you got a dog in this fight. You're a postdoc in philos (if memory serves) with an interest in (preserving) traditional theological doctrines. Plus, perhaps you read, long ago, I felt philosophy and theology as academic institutions have been in bed together way to long down through the centuries and perhaps this biases you on these species of posts. Understandable.
EDIT Pate- We do sometimes pick the same adjectives... uncanny!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 10:43am PT
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LMAO, Pate!
Pass the coffee...
Hey, you promised me Brian.
...another English muffin?
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Brian
climber
California
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May 26, 2010 - 11:34am PT
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Hey guys,
Just got in toward the end of the day, as I'm on sabbatical in Europe. I guess there are two things you would like me to address.
My position regarding religion is too complex to boil down to a slogan or catchphrase I'm afraid. I'll toss in that I think the atheistic critique of thaumaturgic religiosity in figures like Freud, Nietzsche, and Marx is a good thing. But taken alone it doesn't really understand the half of it. The fundamentalist and literalist religious perspective that Maher, Dennett, Dawkins, and Hitchens are so riled up about is a bit of a red herring. Not to say that some of their critiques are without merit, but they are woefully misinformed if they think all religious believers are simple literalists with respect to received wisdom. It is true that some people are, but that is far from universal even amongst people who do consider themselves religious. The unwillingness of Dennett, Dawkins, et al. to recognize this distinction is intellectually disingenuous at best. It is, dare I say it, religulous insofar as it is unwilling to consider evidence that contradicts the universal application of their caricature to their opponents. If they want to imagine that every religious person thinks the earth was created in six 24 hour periods about 5,000 years ago, or that God smites evildoers and cures the cancer of believers, and so forth than that's OK. It just doesn't map on to reality very well. It is, however, much easier to beat up a straw man or a caricature and to boil your argument down to a pithy neologism. I genuinely understand the temptation to do so, as I see it all the time in undergraduate students (and, sadly, in our politicians).
Like HFCS I've never hid behind the anonymity of the net, having freely offered my opinion on a variety of subjects. Unlike others folks you could probably piece together my actual identity from posts I've made, especially environmental ones. As HFCS points out, I am a professor of philosophy. Following posts that revealed that once could easily put together that I've done work on both philosophy of religion and on environmental philosophy, that I live in California, and so on. However, to save you the trouble I'll make things clear here because I do believe that this would be a better place with real first and last names attributed to posts, that people say many things they would be unwilling to say in person, and that anyone worth his salt will put his name to his words.
EDIT: Removed contact information after Pate's kind post. Folks are more than free to contact me via a PM as well, although response will be (very) delayed while I am on sabbatical (until the fall semester starts back up). Thanks again Pate.
Brian
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 11:43am PT
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Thanks, Brian. I appreciate the intelligent discourse.
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Brian
climber
California
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May 26, 2010 - 11:44am PT
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Thanks to Pate and HFCS for their kind replies to my last, now edited, post.
Brian
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 26, 2010 - 11:49am PT
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What, four civil posts in a row? Mon Dieu!
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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May 26, 2010 - 11:58am PT
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Brian,
whether they believe in the "the earth was created in six 24 hour periods about 5,000 years ago" whole nine yards or just some of the parts that are a little more logical... it's like, how do you say, you cant be just a little bit pregnant.
Respect for peoples opinions is warranted but too many wars are being fought and too much of the world runs right now based on these "a little but pregnant" ideas and that is why people like Pate, HFCS and myself have such a knee-jerk reaction and are taking such a harsh tone with religion.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
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May 26, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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I firmly believe that you'd see allot more if everyone DID post under their REAL name.
What I find most interesting about those on the "right" that post here and constantly support laws banning the Niqab or Burqua - claiming it is not a religious issue but one of being able to identify someone so they will be more accountable for their actions - is that NONE of them post under their REAL name.
Why is that?
Fear of accountability?
Insecurity of the self?
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WBraun
climber
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May 26, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
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They also made it a personal issue with klimmer and revealed his real identity and threatened him about his job.
Hypocritical assh'holes.
That's why I said they are ugly useless disgusting tools.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
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May 26, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
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Werner,
So correct and if everyone involved was posting under their full real name, 10-to-1 none of that would have ever happened.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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"...and revealed his real identity..."
I'm calling that bullsh#t, Werner. He revealed himself. And then somebody (who I didn't even know) googled him and linked him. Don't make a mountain out of a molehole, Instigator. If you're unclear, go back and research it before mouthing off.
And now Douglas, apparently naive to realworld realities, is feeding on the mistruth. Just like in politics.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
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May 26, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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HFCS,
Post under your real name.
If not you are part of the problem, not the solution.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 26, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
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Last I heard America was a free and open society where people could express their opinions without fear of retribution. I know it would be naive to believe that it always works that way but I, for one, certainly don't refrain from expressing beliefs that may be out of the mainstream because I feel threatened. If I really felt that way I would look around for some other place to hang my hat, not that I would find a better place than Estados Unidos.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 26, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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What's happened with our culture, don't people have balls anymore?
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WBraun
climber
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May 26, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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I remember some fight in camp 4. Then when the guy who started the fight got his ass kicked ran over and called the rangers.
The rangers came and found out what happened and said we'll have to take both of ya in. The guy who called the rangers then backtracks and immediately drops all charges.
Here on this forum some these anonymous people sling all kinds of sh'it at people like klimber and roxjox and .... then!!! lets say I sling some back their way they freak and think I can't be doing this sh'it.
I'm supposed to act and be how they project their illusions onto people.
These fools are on a battlefield shooting and suddenly the guy they're shooting fires back.
OMFG !!!! they think this can't be happening.
Stupid fools ........
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
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May 26, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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FYI, threats of violence from the forum are real. I don't recommend posting under your real name... unless you really don't give a fuk.
Wes,
Some MAY be real some MAY not.
If someone does come after you - hit 'em where it counts.
First press charges then sue to the hilt.
Anyway of any violence were to come from interactions on this forum it WILL BES SHUT DOWN in a mater of days.
Chris is ultimately responsible for any escalation that cones from this forum.
Especially since the call for moderators has been made several times, with regard to the heated discussions here.
I don't believe the majority of people posting to this forum do not want this to happen.
If everyone did act like responsible adults and post under their real name the accountability factor would reign supreme and allot of the BS that goes on would be toned way down.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 26, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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Like I said, Werner, immune to wisdom. Drama Queens.
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jstan
climber
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May 26, 2010 - 01:59pm PT
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With or without a threat when a person expresses anger, what are they saying?
That they, personally, are unable to deal with the situation.
Why would anyone listen to advice from people who cannot handle even themselves?
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 26, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
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Good questions, Jstan. Let the Water flow.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
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Wes, thanks for the apology, i really appreciate that!!
Yea, your right, it isn't prophecy fulfilled(army of 200 million).
Oh well!
But should Russia and Iran form an alliance and begin to attack Israel, but get totally wiped out by a natural disaster...this is actually prophesied to happen seven years before Armeggedon and the army of 200 million.
Just sayin, should these things happen, you might reconsider.
I agree, they must seem totally absurd.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
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Well the US won't come to Israel's aid when Iran and Russia attack her.
And FWIW, I was totally against the US invasion of Iraque. As were many other Christian Evangelicals such as Pat Robertson etc...right from the beggining.
And I feel the same in regards to Afganistan.
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jstan
climber
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May 26, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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"But should Russia and Iran form an alliance and begin to attack Israel..."
This statement is significant. The statement shows pretty clearly our inability to overpower the Iraqi has caused us to realize, as we stand now, we would not be "victorious" were we to be opposed by Russia. Never mind China. We could not handle even 30,000,000 Arabs.
A person has the ability to deal with this in at least two ways.
First, one can assume one has a magical "Big Brother" who will never let us be beaten or have personally to sacrifice.
Alternatively one can face the facts. Politically polarized as we are, we are a threat to no one.
If we wish to continue powerless we have only to remain polarized and each of us convinced "I" and "I alone" have all the answers.
If we do choose to remain powerless the rest of the world will simply move ahead, without us.
A disordered and polarized people
are not able to supply answers
to anyone
on anything.
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WBraun
climber
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May 26, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
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Pate -- "It was done by a single person, not a THEY"
Did I mention you?
I used "They" as a trigger to get an answer because I couldn't find the thread/posts that pertained to this. The thread or posts may have been deleted.
You did a recent troll on klimmer and he reacted and then you flamed him for it.
Pate -- "Sorry Klimmer, that was a total troll. Just wanted to see if I could help your students out and get you to waste 5 minutes of their class time. It worked. Now go look up "gullible" or "compulsive"."
Double standard?
This thread has now become civil and I suggest it remain so .....
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
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jstan!
The reason I say that the US won't aid Israel is because the Bible states that no one will come to Israels defence(America isn't specifically mentioned in the Bible).
And it states that God alone will come to Israels aid and wipeout the converging army's(with a natural disaster). Totally eliminate the Iranian/Russian/Syrian/Lebanese/Libyian army's and three others i don't recall at the moment.
Yes, I agree, it sounds totally absurd.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 03:51pm PT
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Thanks, Pate, for your post. As an electrical engr, I know exactly how naive people are when it comes to info, information theory, communications, etc. and their effects.
Could we get back to religulous now or is that a lost cause. I still have issues with Brian and Karl Baba.
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WBraun
climber
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May 26, 2010 - 04:02pm PT
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Pate you idiot!
I used "THEY" to get an answer and you gave it since I couldn't find it.
You are an emotional mess. Just look at your posts, you're still flipping out.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
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May 26, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
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Pate,
Yes, anyone COULD do that if you were to be posting under your real name.
But do you think you would change your tone if you were to post under your real name?
Do you think you'd get into as many vitriolic arguments as you do now?
Do you want to get into arguments that piss people off so much that they want to get violent with you?
Yes, it is good to express ones self but expression to the point of pissing people off that much, to the point of violence is not the best decision in my opinion.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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May 26, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
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Pate Wrote,
"Show me one place where opposing groups do mix and I'll show you a screaming crowd about to be tear-gassed."
Pate,
I'm a Christian, one of my best friends is a mainstream Catholic, my secretary is an athiest and my best friend has somewhat vague Oprah Religulous Theology. I have great talks with patients of mine daily who are vegans, goths, sportos and satanists. I talk religion every day with my language and actions. We don't yell at eachother. These people get a true glimpse of a Christian living a Christian life. We have great discussions. Its cool like that. We're grown ups.
Keep searchin Pate,
Scott
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
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May 26, 2010 - 04:48pm PT
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Pate,
Have a good day.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 26, 2010 - 06:24pm PT
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People seem to make two mistakes here. One is to mistake the measurement of things for the things themselves, and two, to believe in the absolute certainty of their own constructs, as though the measurements or theories totally "explain" the whole shebang.
Define "life" (not by functions, effects or aspects), then prove it is so.
JL
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 26, 2010 - 06:45pm PT
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I've never said that we here at ST should agree on anything.
Sometimes we will, and sometimes we won't. Hey, it's what makes the World go round, culturally speaking. We do expand our World view just by considering another's arguement, and that is OK.
We can agree to disagree, and come out shaking hands with respect and our honor still intact.
We should always be civil toward one another. Now, I'm not talking about friendly jest and poking fun in humor, we should be able to do that. But the vicious attacks should really stop. We should be able to get along.
In my best Rodney King impersonation, "Can't we all jis get alooooong?"
The Golden Rule. Simple.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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May 26, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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To respect what is unknown is to recognize what you are facing. It is something beyond your knowledge and control.
AFS
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
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May 26, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
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Wes,
Watch out if you are overstanding knowledge and control.
You'll probably loose your balls!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 26, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
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Overstanding, overstanding, overstanding....must mean something...to somebody.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
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May 26, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
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Overstanding, standing over..... look down.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 26, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
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t*r!
I think the song "Lithium" is about BI Polor Disorder.
The highs and lows, voices in his head, etc.
Lithium is/was the drug of choice to treat BPD, or as it was previosly reffered to: Manic Depression.
EDIT: Another one of my favorite musicians suffered from BPD, and also died at 27yrs old...Jimi Hendrex
"Manic depression is a frustrating mess!"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
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Any applied linguists at the Taco?
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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May 26, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
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An apology from Fritz.
WesChrist: I am sorry! I became Pate-like last night after I perceived that Jeff Lowe was being ignored in what I know is a very rare post of his to ST.
I like what you post.
I went Pate-stal when I believed active posters on this thread were ignoring a man who I really respect.
Jeff Lowe posted. He was ignored.
Last night on the http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1177667&tn=60 thread: Jeff Lowe, in his Jello persona, posted a pleasant, but complicated message of understanding.
For those of you too young to appreciate Jeff as an icon of American climbing, here is a link to his Wiki bio.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Lowe_(climber);
Jeff used to be more active on Super Topo, but due to debilitating illness: he rarely posts here.
I was impressed and moved by his post.
The Jeff Lowe post.
May 25, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
My friend Connor e-mailed the piece below to me today. I think it's a bit of wisdom from a man who some ST'ers would brand as foolish just because he espouses a personal belief that can be classed as religious. Really though, it seems to me he just points out the obvious inutility of thinking you are correct in your thinking, and everyone else who thinks differently is wrong. In this respect, the scientific way of doing life can be juxtaposed with the spiritual paths, and on the material plane, be shown to be superior. Ergo, all religious people are deluded fools. I am in no way religious, but I've seen and experienced too much to think that science has all the answers now, or can ever find all the answers.
Ohhh, well then...I guess I've just outed myself as the fool that I really am - one who has more questions than answers - and one who feels more enlightenned when he listens to the ramblings of fellow humans of all persuasions, than when he's trying to impress upon those he feels are intellectually inferior to him; their intellectual inferiority - and his own superiority - in tones that are designed to inhibit growth in the minds on either side of the divide.
-FoolishJello
By TENZIN GYATSO:
Published: May 24, 2010 New York Times
WHEN I was a boy in Tibet, I felt that my own Buddhist religion must be the best — and that other faiths were somehow inferior. Now I see how naïve I was, and how dangerous the extremes of religious intolerance can be today.
Though intolerance may be as old as religion itself, we still see vigorous signs of its virulence. In Europe, there are intense debates about newcomers wearing veils or wanting to erect minarets and episodes of violence against Muslim immigrants. Radical atheists issue blanket condemnations of those who hold to religious beliefs. In the Middle East, the flames of war are fanned by hatred of those who adhere to a different faith.
Such tensions are likely to increase as the world becomes more interconnected and cultures, peoples and religions become ever more entwined. The pressure this creates tests more than our tolerance — it demands that we promote peaceful coexistence and understanding across boundaries.
Granted, every religion has a sense of exclusivity as part of its core identity. Even so, I believe there is genuine potential for mutual understanding. While preserving faith toward one’s own tradition, one can respect, admire and appreciate other traditions.
An early eye-opener for me was my meeting with the Trappist monk Thomas Merton in India shortly before his untimely death in 1968. Merton told me he could be perfectly faithful to Christianity, yet learn in depth from other religions like Buddhism. The same is true for me as an ardent Buddhist learning from the world’s other great religions.
A main point in my discussion with Merton was how central compassion was to the message of both Christianity and Buddhism. In my readings of the New Testament, I find myself inspired by Jesus’ acts of compassion. His miracle of the loaves and fishes, his healing and his teaching are all motivated by the desire to relieve suffering.
I’m a firm believer in the power of personal contact to bridge differences, so I’ve long been drawn to dialogues with people of other religious outlooks. The focus on compassion that Merton and I observed in our two religions strikes me as a strong unifying thread among all the major faiths. And these days we need to highlight what unifies us.
Take Judaism, for instance. I first visited a synagogue in Cochin, India, in 1965, and have met with many rabbis over the years. I remember vividly the rabbi in the Netherlands who told me about the Holocaust with such intensity that we were both in tears. And I’ve learned how the Talmud and the Bible repeat the theme of compassion, as in the passage in Leviticus that admonishes, “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
In my many encounters with Hindu scholars in India, I’ve come to see the centrality of selfless compassion in Hinduism too — as expressed, for instance, in the Bhagavad Gita, which praises those who “delight in the welfare of all beings.” I’m moved by the ways this value has been expressed in the life of great beings like Mahatma Gandhi, or the lesser-known Baba Amte, who founded a leper colony not far from a Tibetan settlement in Maharashtra State in India. There he fed and sheltered lepers who were otherwise shunned. When I received my Nobel Peace Prize, I made a donation to his colony.
Compassion is equally important in Islam — and recognizing that has become crucial in the years since Sept. 11, especially in answering those who paint Islam as a militant faith. On the first anniversary of 9/11, I spoke at the National Cathedral in Washington, pleading that we not blindly follow the lead of some in the news media and let the violent acts of a few individuals define an entire religion.
Let me tell you about the Islam I know. Tibet has had an Islamic community for around 400 years, although my richest contacts with Islam have been in India, which has the world’s second-largest Muslim population. An imam in Ladakh once told me that a true Muslim should love and respect all of Allah’s creatures. And in my understanding, Islam enshrines compassion as a core spiritual principle, reflected in the very name of God, the “Compassionate and Merciful,” that appears at the beginning of virtually each chapter of the Koran.
Finding common ground among faiths can help us bridge needless divides at a time when unified action is more crucial than ever. As a species, we must embrace the oneness of humanity as we face global issues like pandemics, economic crises and ecological disaster. At that scale, our response must be as one.
Harmony among the major faiths has become an essential ingredient of peaceful coexistence in our world. From this perspective, mutual understanding among these traditions is not merely the business of religious believers — it matters for the welfare of humanity as a whole.
Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama, is the author, most recently, of “Toward a True Kinship of Faiths: How the World’s Religions Can Come Together.”
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 26, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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Hey. I believe in Jesus, as the son of God. Redigulous, eh?
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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May 26, 2010 - 11:18pm PT
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I think a big reason that religulous discussions can be so touchy is the stakes that are involved.
More than anything, I think religion is a balm on our soul to soothe the ache of mortality. If there is no god and nature truly rules all then the implication is that our soul is a construct of a bunch of neural synapses firing in our unique pattern, that upon death will expire into nothingness. Smartest of people will subconsciously convince themselves to believe in something otherwise irrational to calm our fears of being so finite.
I call it the god proposition bet. (this idea is somewhat plagiarized, Im not that smart). If we are willing to "bet" our soul that god does not exist by not believing in him and being blasphemous or what ever else you all wanna say are gonna send me to hell and then god doesn't exist, I got to do what I wanted and paid no cost for it. The converse is someone who is willing to "bet" compromising their life on earth by tempering the things they might have done otherwise but would send them to hell and by being a devout worshipper for the "pay-off" of eternal life in heaven. I think a lot of people, as I previously stated, accept the god side of the bet without even consciously thinking this so they can rest at night knowing if they die they will still be.
Me personally, I am a gambler and I will always take a good bet, one with very favorable odds and the odds of a lifetime of compromise (~100 years) verses an eternity in heaven or hell says I should take that bet. Problem is, I cant do it because the compromise is to ignore my intellect and rational thought that I base ever moment and every act of my life on.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 12:17am PT
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EOE wrote-
"I think a big reason that religulous discussions can be so touchy is the stakes that are involved."
Yeah, religious discussions, too.
With the word religulous in the vocabulary, it is understandable that many (e.g., atheists, humanists, freethinkers, the post-religious) would extend it either (a) as a synonym for religious or (b) to describe a religion, or religions, at large.
religulous adj. 1. religious ideas or religious practices that are ridiculous 2. anything religious
Yeah, Wes, I'd say there is good reason for atheists, naturalists, free thinkers, the post-religious to get involved:
Thanks for posting the link. Informative.
Of course, Almighty God in Christian culture means Jehovah, not Marduk or Ashtar or any other ancient Mesopotamian God. Certainly not any abstract hypothetical God modern philosophers and sophisticated theists or theologians like to bait and switch to.
This regulation (law) is actually in the North Carolina constitution and yeah, it is archaic and religulous and needs to be rewritten.
But of course the I'm cool and in-beat Christians at the Taco (e.g., Micronut, Bluering, Klimmer, Trip, a few others) don't get why the post-religious secularists (like me) have their panties in a bunch.
Get involved. Take up the charge. Be the change you seek in the world. If America goes down the drain as many project, it will be because its democratic institutions were so impotent at modernizing, adapting.
So what else is religulous? How about the dyscrasia (or dysmania) that exists in American culture today (in people's conversations, for example) resulting from the powerful mix of ol'time religious indoctrination (under Jehovah and the Abrahamic narrative) and scientific illiteracy. People can't even talk to each other in informed discourse because of this dyscrasia. It devolves right away into calls of leg-humping, etc. This thread is chockful of the evidence of it. Shameful.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 27, 2010 - 12:53am PT
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evolve--
seems to be a lot of people's religious motivation--just to play it safe. blaise pascal was one of them. the bumperstickers tell atheists, "you'd better be right"--sort of gives the lie to the shallowness of their own position--they don't "believe" because it does them much good or makes the world better, they just believe in order to play it safe, in case the fire-and-brimstone talk might be true. so there's a converse--you'd better be right if you're basing your precious existence on such trivial fears. if you're wrong, you may actually be wasting your precious time and missing the potential to spend it better.
i like that "desiderata" poem some anonymous philosopher posted on a church out east, and it seems to have stayed there, an intrinsic wisdom which is its own proof:
"you are a child of the universe. like the trees and the stars, you have a right to be here."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
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The fact is-
The mix of religious supernaturalism (whether ol' time or new-age) and scientific illiteracy makes a mess of it. A tragic mess. They're like two bad characters, the villains, in a film that the good guys are tasked to overcome to save civilization and to get the girl. Except in this film, there's no girl so, really, for many, what's the point.
Supernaturalism + Science Illiteracy = Religulousness.
Case in Point:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1176467&tn=140
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 27, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
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hahahahaha!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 27, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
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scientific illiteracy
--
This is tossed out there as though scientific literacy, or quantified datum, is the end all per true knowledge and wisdom.
Spiritual illiteracy displays an equal modicum of ignorance, and typically manifests with people trying to force all spiritual or transcendent themes into either material forms their left brains can grock onto, or old style religious mores they can "prove" to be false.
There is also a pretty telling degree of narcissism and a marked lack of humility in some who really should be asking questions about things they don't know, but instead swear that they do know - they know for a fact that all things spiritual are bunk, lies, mere ideations, feelings, beliefs, sensations, or things with qualities. If I was a math teacher and got those answers on a test, I'd say: Show your work with the unqantifiable in order to vouchsafe your answers.
JL
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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May 27, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
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Me personally, I am a gambler and I will always take a good bet, one with very favorable odds and the odds of a lifetime of compromise (~100 years) verses an eternity in heaven or hell says I should take that bet.
You are making two bets. The first bet that you don't mention is the bet that the religulous people are even close to right about what God would do with you once you die here on earth, if you are wrong and there is a god.
I am fortunate enough to be a fairly open minded atheist. I think that there are no gods of any sort. I can't be sure. I also think that if I am wrong, so are all of the idiots who speak of hell and suggest that they know what God would do with me.
I'm betting that there is no God but also betting that if I am wrong then God is fair and will be a bit understanding of my situation. Plus, So many religulous people are much more evil than me that I can't imagine being near the beginning of the line to get into hell.
Dave
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
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This is tossed out there as though scientific literacy, or quantified datum, is the end all per true knowledge and wisdom.
Only by idiots. Another: "Science doesn't explain everything." Talk about setting up straw men. Talk about faux caricature. Counterproductive.
Maybe if more people experienced a few years of physics through biology in coursework as opposed to the Creation Science Museum, they'd have more respect for science, science education, the Scientific Story and could see why many people experienced in the sciences are saddened by the scientific illiteracy in societies around the world.
Science is only a tool. Don't make it into something it's not and then blast it for that. Out of science is also scientific knowledge, scientific education. Which leads to something else. Efforts to live up to that scientific education. (Which is not spoken of at all as a value by any Abrahamic religion.)
But no worries in the long term. Millions more have carnal knowledge of the sciences today than they did even just two generations ago. Times are changing. Old authorities are becoming irrelevant.
"Spiritual illiteracy displays an equal modicum of ignorance..." Agree. And when modern civilization has a new "practice of living" model and has new language to describe this, to cover it, we'll be more ready to talk about it in the internet forums. (P.S. Some are even working on it when they're not climbing.)
"...they know for a fact that all things spiritual are bunk, lies, mere ideations..."
Another caricature. Another strawman. No one I know "from my camp of decision making and beliefs" or "from my school of thought" thinks such a thing. Religulous.
re: "material forms"
"Material forms" is such anathema to those raised on the "indulgence" of ghostly spirituality and living forever. Tell me, any attempt at all over the course of your life to just come to grips with material form and finite mortality? Au contraire, "finite mortality" doesn't mean life's just a joke and pointless as many a supernaturalist believes.
"Material forms" are what give us our functionality. It is an insult to our nature to think or believe otherwise. Read carefully: Now that was decision-making, an example of decision making, in the new practice of living (based on good science) and is an example of taking a stance in the practice of living. What it is not: It is not forcing this decision making on anyone else. Trying to "force" beliefs (cf: decision making) on others is Abrahamic religion's specialty.
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go-B
climber
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May 27, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
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grock?
If you choose not to choose, you still have made a choise!
Ignorance of the law is not an excuse!
If you can't be a good example be a warning!
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 27, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
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Largo wrote:
There is also a pretty telling degree of narcissism and a marked lack of humility in some who really should be asking questions about things they don't know, but instead swear that they do know - they know for a fact that all things spiritual are bunk, lies, mere ideations, feelings, beliefs, sensations, or things with qualities.
You beat me too it in a much more eloquent way.
Some people need to get off their high horses.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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May 27, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
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This is tossed out there as though scientific literacy, or quantified datum, is the end all per true knowledge and wisdom.
It may or may not be the end all of true knowledge. On the other hand, spirituality has nothing at all to do with knowledge. It is only related to feelings, mythology, belief. If anything spiritual could be measured, proven, predicted, it would no longer be spiritual. So science may actually be the end all per knowledge and wisdom but spirituality can never be that. If there is a God and things of a mystical nature, they can only fill in the blank where science leaves off, or vice-versa.
True enlightenment can be achieved through science but not through religion. To think otherwise would be to disregard all known scientific data and treat it as illusion. If all that we already know is illusion then so the discussion is also an illusion and is therefore futile.
Dave
[edit to add] they know for a fact that all things spiritual are bunk, lies, mere ideations, feelings, beliefs, sensations, or things with qualities.
No true scientist would ever say that there is no life after death, God, etc..., because it is impossible to prove that something does not exist. I might say that the evidence makes me thing the probability is low but no amount of evidence can lower the probability.
On the other hand, to say that magic, which is when things happen that cannot happen, is bunk seems fair. After all, if something happens then it cannot happen and is no longer magic.
Magic is bunk. God is unlikely. The sun is in fact warm on my face. I don't think it is arrogant or self-centered to say these things.
To say that I am wrong about God because your parents told you I was wrong or because you hear voices in your head is arrogant and self-centered. Telling me you know what God will do with me when I die is arrogant. Telling me that any of you religulous nuts knows anything about the true nature of God is the most arrogant thing I can imagine in the entire world. It's almost obscene.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
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"...pretty telling degree of narcissism and a marked lack of humility..."
And maybe some would have a different perspective if they had a life time of experience in the sciences, had some science span, valued science education, valued trying to live up to it, and were appreciative over decades of all the things scientific wisdom has given us, from contact lenses to ipads.
In the modern attitude, it is b.s. that decision making cannot be made, that stances cannot be taken and that these stances and decisions cannot be expressed in regard to new practices in living (as an alternative to old) without calls of narcissism or inhumility.
EDIT
Obviously... many of you are supernaturalists. I am not. One day soon there will be a practice of living (with its own language) that marks and celebrates this quantum difference in reason and belief and practice. And you and I will be free to go our separate ways.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 27, 2010 - 04:10pm PT
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HFCS Wrote:
And maybe some would have a different perspective if they had a life time of experience in the sciences, had some science span, valued science education, and were appreciative over decades of all the things scientific wisdom has given us, from contact lenses to ipads.
In the modern attitude, it is b.s. that decision making cannot be made, that stances cannot be taken and that these stances and decisions cannot be expressed without calls of narcissism or inhumility.
Stop Whining.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
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Bbock- I paid attn to your exchanges on your thread with Ed Hartouni and others. I really haven't anything to say to you, any more than to Klimmer or Go-B. Keep to your Jehovah-based theistic evolution, at least you're not a young earth creationist, and happy trails.
Oh, and feel free to take the last word.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 27, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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You got it! I'm outtttttttttttaaaaaaaaaaa here!!!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
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Rector wrote-
"I am fortunate enough to be a fairly open minded atheist. I think that there are no gods of any sort. I can't be sure. I also think that if I am wrong, so are all of the idiots who speak of hell and suggest that they know what God would do with me."
-damn straight!
Really, to even think it in this 21st century day and age, it is religulous! -that an Intelligence behind the Cosmos- behind the Whole Shebang- would require belief in Him as a main criterion for a post-death judgment. Religulous.
EDIT We've all heard of (a) stuffed animals, (b) children holding on to stuffed animals for comfort. There should be a name for "stuffed God concepts." When those new fields relating to belief and the practice of living develop, perhaps they will have a name for this.
To the religious supernaturalists: Reframe it: It is not a sign of hubris but maturity when many declare they have reached a point in their education or development or decision making where they no longer need "stuffed gods" to hold onto.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
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Rector said-
"No true scientist would ever say that there is no life after death..."
Sorry, Rector. This line actually has religious influence (or supernaturalist belief) all over it. The sciences (and scientists) have plainly shown that life is a function of biochemistry, DNA, cellular metabolism and on up- to tissues, brains and individuals. This overwhelmingly indicates that there is no ghost or "ghostly" spirit in the body machine. (As archaic religious institutions maintain and teach.) Perhaps the more science span one has across many sciences, just as Carl Sagan had, the more this is clear, compelling. Those 100 trillion cells of the ani-material body are doing something: ani-material functionality. That is what makes insects go. That is what makes cheetahs go. That is what makes humans go. That is what makes all evolved biotic organisms on the planet go. Otherwise, it's a kind of animal apartheid.
EDIT
And in regard to spirit, spirituality. It depends on how one defines them. I'm not about to let the religulous supernaturalists keep these beautiful words, to surrender to them these beautiful words. You can simply distinguish between carnate spirit (carnate meaning of the flesh) and ghostly spirit.
The carnate spirit dies with the body. Yeah, and life is STILL worth living.
EOE wrote-
"our soul is a construct of a bunch of neural synapses..."
Thanks for not saying "just" a construct... Such a bad habit it is- started and maintained at every turn by supernaturalists. We're constructs of neural synapses plus a lot more...
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go-B
climber
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May 27, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
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Jesus loves you!
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WBraun
climber
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May 27, 2010 - 05:43pm PT
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Corn nut
All your blather and you can't even understand the word spirit.
Look it up it's even in the dictionary. Yes of course you the Corn Nut is inventing his own religion and dictionary to exactly contradict his own philosophy.
Even the gross materialists are not as ignorant as you .....
Take a good look at number 3
spir·it
–noun
1.the principle of conscious life; the vital principle in humans, animating the body or mediating between body and soul.
2.the incorporeal part of humans: present in spirit though absent in body.
3.the soul regarded as separating from the body at death.
4.conscious, incorporeal being, as opposed to matter: the world of spirit.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
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Brawny- I thought we agreed: in the interest of any meaningful discourse at all, you'd hang out on Go-B's thread. Get off my grass.
spirit (<Latin spirare, to breathe) Usage examples: 1. When the body machine dies, the carnate spirit dies. This life is not a rehearsal. Carpe diem. 2. The carnate spirit is a thing of beauty- see it expressed in the flying sparrow, in the sprinting cheetah, in the blossoming iris, even in the dustups between egoistic politicians and ideologues.
EDIT 3:24p Dang it, Brawny. Don't you have an LM741 op amp or two you can go wirewrap into your aluminum pointy hat?
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WBraun
climber
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May 27, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
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Hard scientific evidence is the imitator "GOD" .
Hard science is defective ultimately in the end due to the finite limitations and duality.
The materialist of the mundane world is infected with the four defects.
1) Is sure to commit mistakes
2) Is invariably illusioned,
3) Has the tendency to cheat others and
4) Is limited by imperfect senses.
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WBraun
climber
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May 27, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
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Belief system?
That's your system.
Stop drooling and go back to your laboratory ...... :-)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 27, 2010 - 06:41pm PT
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rectorsquid- "I also think if I'm wrong, so are all the idiots who speak of hell, and suggest that they would know what God would do with me."
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Mathew 10:28
Do you consider Jesus an idiot?
BTW, You were right, there are many people worse than you. And each will get their just reward.
The Bible say's there are different levels of hell, for instance, Hitler will get his just reward.
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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May 27, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
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TriplDip
Do you consider Jesus an idiot? No, I consider Jesus dead. and the bible, well it is just a compilation of a bunch of different peoples takes on what he was like when he was around. Kinda like a great big religulous version of the telephone game... lets see how much this (hi)story gets garbled, inflated, conflated and frankly flatulated by all these different people before it is compiled into one volume. Dont get me wrong, I bet Jesus the man was one hell of a cool cat, like the Ghandi or Dali Lama of his time. I'm sure he was dropping all kinds of gems that his peeps later wrote down for him and yes alot of them are great oneliners to live by but the son of god? Which brings me to the next point...
I also think if I'm wrong, so are all the idiots who speak of hell, and suggest that they would know what God would do with me.
I think what he is saying that goes right over your head, that even if he is wrong and there is an afterlife, of all the possible afterlifes there could be and all the possible deities running the show that your chosen version of it and the big guy in the sky is the right one is as unlikely as you winning every major lottery on the planet simultaneously and if you are so sure you are right then you are the narcissistic ones. Additionally, if there is a god, the secret handshake to get into his club is not going to be you admitted his existence or said your hail marys but that you simply were moral, kind and compassionate, things that are by no means mutually exclusive with being scientific and devoutly atheist.
And Werner "Hard science is defective ultimately in the end due to the finite limitations and duality.".... please use words strung together that make real sense instead of just ones you think sound cool please.
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WBraun
climber
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May 27, 2010 - 07:26pm PT
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EvolveOrExtinct
There not cool, that's your imagination.
Back to the laboratory for you too .....
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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May 27, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
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Still making no sense Werner...
There not cool, that's your imagination.
Did you mean they're... or their.... wait it doesnt matter, it still wouldnt make sense.
And I'm in the lab now... mwuahahaha!!
Edit: I dont mean to sound snide... well yes I do but I shouldn't. My participation in this forum is not meant to be mean but to assist in protection of the masses from religulous ideals that they should not have forced on them. I try very hard to respect other peoples opinions but have a habit of de-evolving into a name caller and a maker-funner-of when people denigrate my position.
As to my anonymity, we all have our reasons but mine regarding this forum is future employment. if I google myself by early in the second page I can see posts of mine from ST where I used my real name and though I would wholeheartedly say all these things to someone face to face (after gauging if I would even have this type of conversation with them in the first place), I don't want potential employers seeing this not knowing what their beliefs are and if I would allow myself to have this type of conversation with them.
And as to anyone thinking I am an alternate avatar to Pate or HFCS, I dare you to find an instance where they are as long winded or as capable of run-on sentences as I am.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
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My carnate spirit knows that point, I've run it and biked it. Just off the Tahoe Rim trail either there are right above. Right? Pan to the right and you'll take in Freel and Monument. Ha! That's a beautiful laboratory, keep up the good work.
My carnate spirit rejoices.
EDIT 4:42p: No idea, Wes. Which kind? and what's the difference?
"...and the name is relevant to this thread." Hmm...
Well, I just learned that they're either neutral or alkaline, not acidic (like bogs). Still, you stumped me...
Oh, you mean the "proper name"? No idea. Israel Fen?
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WBraun
climber
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May 27, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
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Oh thank you so much Pate, what an honor.
I'm drooling in bliss now .....
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 27, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
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been doing a little reading lately on origins of christianity and literary analysis of what people consider sacred scripture. books by elaine pagels and bart ehrmann, meticulous, knowledgeable scholars who have traced the texts and learned the languages. ehrmann's book, "misquoting jesus," is a good place to start.
most protestants accept the eloquent but textually corrupt st. james bible as some kind of work of god. catholics are a little more scholarly, but the crux of the matter is the imposition of orthodoxy through constantine, giving christians a narrow basis for their own religious heritage. there are many "apocryphal" gospels which present a more hippie-like, less rational, less administrable christianity. most believers don't even have idle curiosity about it, or, if they're catholic, take orders from on high to avoid forbidden books.
fyi, also got into a little egyptology study. the roots of judaism are in egypt. freud pointed that out, but it isn't everything to do with akhenaten. some think the "amen" by which prayers are ended is a holdover from the top god of egypt. whether that's true or not, check this out:
"you are amon, the lord of the silent one
who comes at the plea of the lowly one
i called out to you when i was distressed,
and you came and rescued me.
you give breath to him who is weak,
you rescue him who is in dire straits.
you are amon-re, lord of thebes
who rescues him who is in the abyss,
for you are one who is merciful when you are called upon
you are the one who comes from afar."
writers of bible books didn't think this stuff up first. from the period of ramses 2nd, new kingdom.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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Tony- Regarding egyptology: Another little known fact among Christians is that Cleopatra was "Daughter of Isis" and her brother Ptolemy was "Son of Amon-Re." (a) It says so right on their stone monuments and (b) they lived in the same era as Jesus of Nazereth, "Son of Jehovah."
It is absolutely uneqivocally religulous to know this fact yet still cling to the God Jesus idea. About as religulous as believing in God Ptolemy or God Cleopatra.
But, hey, were supposed to keep an open mind, not make any decisions, not utilize our evolved decision-making powers- otherwise, so say the Christians, we display arrogance, narcissism, closemindedness, intolerance...
Are Christians believers in God Cleopatra, Daughter of Isis? There's no end to the absurdities. It is religulous!
EDIT Of course, I'd like to post up a picture of me posing on a huge camel in front of the Great Pyramid in Egypt but then I'd lose the authority of my avatar. And my ex-, actually her inlaws who are fundamentalist Christians, would probably photoshop it in a very unbecoming way. Uh, shucks...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
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Pate, that's religulous!
...more coffee?
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 28, 2010 - 12:09am PT
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As if scientology is any more crazy than Christianity? I think its funny when people of faith bash on other religions. As if their belief system is totally rational and the other is fiction. Religulous.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 28, 2010 - 01:14am PT
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Okay, make me work. Be like that. But let's take a sober look at one of these really out there threads and sort out the folly from the essence.
This is tossed out there as though scientific literacy, or quantified datum, is the end all per true knowledge and wisdom.
It may or may not be the end all of true knowledge. On the other hand, spirituality has nothing at all to do with knowledge. It is only related to feelings, mythology, belief.
FIRST, NOTE THAT THIS FOOLISHNESS IS POSITED AS A SIMPLE AND OBVIOUS FACT, WHEN THE AUTHOR DOESN'T AT ALL KNOW, FOR A FACT, WHAT HE CLAIMS TO KNOW. WHERE, FOR INSTANCE, DID HE EVER GET THE IDEA THAT SPIRITUALITY WAS BEHOLDEN TO FEELINGS, MYTHOLOGY AND BELIEFS. HOW DOES HE INCONTROVERTIBLY KNOW THAT THIS IS THE CASE? IN SHORT, HE DOES NOT, AND HE IS BEING DISHONEST IN IMPLYING THAT HE DOES, AND HAT NO ONE ELSE, THROUGHOUT TIME AND SPACE, DOES EITHER. THIS IS THE CORE OF THE NARCISSISM I SPOKE OF EARLIER, AND IS PLAIN TO SEE IN THIS SILLY-RABBIT RIFF.
If anything spiritual could be measured, proven, predicted, it would no longer be spiritual. So science may actually be the end all per knowledge and wisdom but spirituality can never be that. If there is a God and things of a mystical nature, they can only fill in the blank where science leaves off, or vice-versa.
NOTE THE CONFUSION BETWEEN KNOWLEDGE (FACTS AND FIGURES), AND WISDOM. QUANTIFIABLE INFORMATION DOES NOT MAKE ANYONE WISE. THE LAST SENTENCE BETRAYS THE CLOSED CIRCLE OF THE MATERIAL REDUCTIONIST. WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE
LIES IN THE "BLANK?" IF NOT SOME SECRET STUFF NOT YET QUANTIFIABLE BY SCIENCE. IF THERE'S "NOTHING" THERE, THEN THE BLANK IS EMPTY RIGHT? NOW WHAT IS THE NATURE OF THAT EMPTINESS?
True enlightenment can be achieved through science but not through religion. To think otherwise would be to disregard all known scientific data and treat it as illusion.
they know for a fact that all things spiritual are bunk, lies, mere ideations, feelings, beliefs, sensations, or things with qualities.
No true scientist would ever say that there is no life after death, God, etc..., because it is impossible to prove that something does not exist. I might say that the evidence makes me thing the probability is low but no amount of evidence can lower the probability.
YOUR STILL TRYING TO FORCE SPIRITUAL MATTERS INTO MATERIAL TERMS AND CONSTRUCTS, ERGO, YOU'RE USING THE WRONG TOOL (MEASURING), BUT SINCE IT'S THE ONLY TOOL YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE (IT'S NOT), YOU'RE STUFF WITH HAVING TO DEAL ONLY WITH THINGS.
To say that I am wrong about God because your parents told you I was wrong or because you hear voices in your head is arrogant and self-centered. Telling me you know what God will do with me when I die is arrogant. Telling me that any of you religulous nuts knows anything about the true nature of God is the most arrogant thing I can imagine in the entire world. It's almost obscene.
NOW THIS LAST BIT IS JUST AS PUERILE RANT AND YOU KNOW IT, AND IT MUDDLES THE ISSUES HORRIBLY.IT ALSO IMPLIES THAT ANYONE, THROUGHOUT SPACE AND TIME, WHO HAS EXPERIENCES OR INSIGHTS DIFFERENT THAN YOURS (THERE IS NO SPIRITUAL DIMENSION) MUST HAVE GOTTEN THEM FROM THEIR FOLKS, FROM AUDIO HALLUCINATIONS, AND THAT WE'RE ALL "NUTS."
WHAT'S MOST OBVIOUS HERE IS A GREAT TERROR OF BEING WRONG, AND AN EVEN GREATER TERROR OF INVESTIGATING THE UNKNOWN - SO MUCH SO THAT NOT ONE OF THESE MATERIAL REDUCTIONIST NUTTERS HAS ASKED A SINGLE QUESTION ABOUT THINGS THEY DO NOT KNOW. THE MAIN PROBLEM IS THAT THE INVESTIGATION DOES NOT COME FROM A POSITION OF CURIOSITY, OPENNESS AND WONDER, BUT OF JUDGEMENT: YOU ARE WRONG AND I AM RIGHT.
THAT'S A CLOSED CIRCLE IN ANY LANGUAGE.
jl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2010 - 01:19am PT
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Pate, I think Port's on the sensible side of the fire. He's a reasoner and freethinker. (Pretty sure. I'd wish he post more.) I'd climb with him on Keeler for sure! Hey, and let me explain... I alluded to the coffee and English muffin bit because of the other day when some where postulating we were the same guy! The other day I just had this flash of how funny it would be if you and I, say, were two roommates sharing a studio in San Fran by design causing all this commotion from our laptaps at the breakfast table! Pretty funny, it was, that imagery in my head. So that was the reference to the coffee. So what's with drinkin diet colas, man? LOL.
Man, miscommunication's so easy in matters of faith. Ol time supernaturalisms can really muck up the waters.
Port- thanks for using the word religulous, it helps me sink it deep into my working vocabulary.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 28, 2010 - 01:28am PT
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ANOTEHR DOOSY WORTH REVIEWING:
"...they know for a fact that all things spiritual are bunk, lies, mere ideations..."
Another caricature. Another strawman. No one I know "from my camp of decision making and beliefs" or "from my school of thought" thinks such a thing. Religulous.
--
I presume you are using caricature to mean a cartoon or misrepresentation. This is and odd thing coming from someone who has gone on a wild rant and called it a mission of sober, courageous and even heroic rationality. So I'll ask you two things: A) if no one in your "camp" believes all things spiritual are bunk, lies, and mere ideations, what do you think they are? and B) what about spirituality (the unquantifiable) are you in the dark about, and try and come up with one meaningful question about what you do not know. Again, the question cannot be about doctrine, beliefs, religious "experiences," or any thing or stuff.
Good luck with that one. I don't suspect it will be easy for you.
JL
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 28, 2010 - 03:33am PT
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Pate, I have a very basic understanding of the Scientology belief system. I know it was founded by L.Ron Hubbard (A fiction writer) and they believe in a god named Xenu. I also understand they have a practice called "auditing," which is used to restore the body from control of the (engrahms?).
Scientologists are crazy, but how much more crazy than believing in a talking snake, a man who walked on water, a virgin birth, fallen angels, etc. I think you get my point. Scientology strikes me more as a cult than religion. But there's a fine between cult and religion.
I just finished a great book, Jesus Interrupted, by Bart Ehraman. He is also the author of Misquoting Jesus. If you have a chance, its a great read. He is professor of religious studies at University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. The book is a collection of all the inaccuracies/contradictions found in the bible. These are just a few of the HUNDREDS of contradictions.
1.) The Death of Jesus in Mark and John. In John (19:14), Jesus is crucified "about noon." Whereas in Mark, Jesus lived throughout the whole day, prepared a Passover meal, was arrested, put on the trial the next day, and executed at about 9am on Passover day.
2.) The Birth of Jesus In Matthew (1:18-2:23) Wise men arrive from the east following a star that leads them to Jerusalem. They then proceed to Bethlehem. They offer gifts. In Luke (1:4-2:40) there are no wise men, they are shepherds.
3.) The death of Jesus In Mark (15:16-39) Jesus in condemned by Pontius Pilate, beaten by the Romans, and then crucified. Jesus remains silent during this ordeal. In Luke (23:34) Jesus is not silent, and speaks to wailing women on his way to be crucified. He is mocked by Jewish leaders but not by the men being crucified with him, unlike in Mark.
So if the bible is the word of God, why didn't God get his story straight? (I'm hoping that Klimmer will address these contradictions)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 28, 2010 - 04:17am PT
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Port- "These are just a few of the contradictions..."
Luke tells of the local shepherds who were told by angels that they could find the baby Jesus, who was born that night, in a manger. And they went and found Him.
Matthew tells the story about the magi(wise men from the East)who would follow a star and find Him. They found Him and His mother in a house. Most likely some time much later than the shepherds.
Both happened, they chose to focus on different individuals.
They don't contradict each other.
Port- "Why didn't He get His story straight?"
He used Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John to tell the Gospel stories. If He was going to have them tell identical, word for word stories why use four guys?
Mark and John reveal nothing about the birth etc., does that mean that no one visited Him(or they didn't think it happened)?
It's late, I'll look at the others tomorrow.
EDIT: There is a good book called "The Gospels in Stereo" which blends the four Gospels together in chronological order. Nothing contradicting.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 28, 2010 - 04:43am PT
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hey there say... i never post in these usually, as folks have their own roll, and know just how they want to flow...
but i do stop by on occasions, just see how ol' supertopo is doing, all around...
i kind got struck a bit by this, as to humor and co-incidence, as i had just finished WRITING a story in my short story collection for the jake series:
well, jade, she wanted to know what happened down at the river, when the guys at the ranch were fisihing with the mayor...
turned out she got a different story from everyone and got a bit miffed wondering if someone was pulling a fast one on her... (in fun, though, as they are a close knit group)...
turned out each seperate story, actually happened, but just within minutes, after each pair of various mixtures of 2 or 3 of them, (a total of 6 in all) left and the others fishing guys stepped in....
their reports were so obsurd, she just couldnt figure what was going down there, no one had seen or shared anything similar (though none caught any fish)...
wow, i never knew i'd step in here tonight and see a similar discusssion, as to "written gospel books" and in the same vein, of diffent angles being seen, or you know what i mean---kind of, as to my "ranch reporters" for jade, each report true, but different...
oh my... odd that i stepped in to see this...
makes me know that i did a story that folks can identify with though...
...
well, carry on, guys...
take care, and happy supertopo eve to you all...
:)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 28, 2010 - 04:55am PT
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Thanks Neebee!
Wonderful illustration!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 28, 2010 - 05:24am PT
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hey there say, TripL7.... it so odd, i just happened to step in here, after doing that story...
the title was this:
ANGLING, ANGLES, AND CATCHING FACTS... BUT NOT MUCH FISH
chp 1 = Nice Day
chp 2 = Some Facts Don’t Seem To Make A Lick Of Sense... Until
They Add-Up On Their Own
actually jake and the mayor were down there fishing, just so the mayor could get facts on deafness, and the american sign language..fishing was secondary fun...
so---after they left, others came to fish, and jake even went back three other times, with others of the ranch...
each group was angling for fish, but each group learned new things about ongoing events in their lives, facts, it was, tha they caught (but no fish)...
not one story lined up with the other... and then to top it off, not one folks caught a fish, but the last gal to be there, saw a whole host of fish! ... :))
jade thought they had all been down there together, being that each group had been there with jake... but everyone else shared THEIR story first, and even his repost added to the confusion... :))
yeah, i must have showed up here for a reason, oh my...
what an interesting night... :)
looks like i made you smile...
:)
say, maybe god is smiling too...
:)
edit: say, seeings things from different angles, may complicate things, at times, but it sure does cover all the bases of a full day, and catch details that otherwise might be missed by one...
:O
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 28, 2010 - 05:38am PT
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^^^^ So true!!
And i don't believe in coincidence!
Like ol' Ben Franklin said..."The Lord works in mysterious ways!"
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 28, 2010 - 06:48am PT
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hey there TripL7... oh my, me neither (as to conincidences)... though i did make mention of it... :))
i have seen far to often, that they are very special skilled and intricately knitted stiches in the ol' hand sewn quilt of life...
oh my... and i was going to go to sleep EARLY oh my... still up!!!...
nite nite all, and good morning, too...
*just had to see who all the recent poster were, that are still up late, or at least got up, early, first...
:)
have a good day...
:)
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 28, 2010 - 07:35am PT
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hey there say... ooops, was just going to sleep when i realized... as to co-incidences, through... some are meant to be signifigant and some are meant to be simply as to action-reaction and business as usual...
there is so much, as to this word and what it entails, as events do happen as to common measures too, but some stand out far more so, than that, when key situation are at hand, and key needs such as insight, and such need to be met, etc... oh well, i didn't want to neglect saying that, too... very vast, as to the word... but me, i do see the good lord's hand in his higher ways... very interesing, fun, and serious, and gracious, it has been, too, along the way... even the seemingly unimportant, may have vast importance to the helping of another... :)
oh my... well... had to say that...
nite all, again...
:)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 28, 2010 - 08:41am PT
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good to see another ehrman reader, port.
people looking for answers from scholars like him won't find them--they'll just get a much wider picture of the origins of belief.
ehrman's autobiographical notes are interesting. he started out a rather conservative christian young man wanting to dedicate his life to god by becoming as good a scholar of scripture as he could. he went to a rather conservative christian college, learned all he could from them, and then decided to transfer to a slightly less conservative christian college. he went through this process 3-4 times before he got to big, secular universities. each time someone remarked at his farewell get-together, "i wonder if there are any REAL christians where you are going."
probably because ehrman's faith started out so text-oriented, he lost it. he says he just can't see the hand of god in this literary mess they call holy scripture and divine revelation. one of the big problems is copyists. before printing was invented, scripture had to be copied by hand. copyists often took liberties, inserting little extras, spindoctoring things to conform to their beliefs. you can trace these things by studying literary style.
this gives the lie to a lot of people who post here. they're scared to death of losing their faith because it's so tightly tied to written words. a bible quote proves everything. they're crying to think for themselves, but if they do, they're afraid they'll lose everything.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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May 28, 2010 - 09:12am PT
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lighten up folks. it is a movie made by a comedian to get people to think who crazy religion is, ALL religion..
and yes i loved it. very very funny..
ks
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 28, 2010 - 11:38am PT
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What Neebee said ^^^^^^^ so true!
Thanks Neebee!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2010 - 11:41am PT
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Pate- that "religious authority" picture is religulous! LOL
DMT raises a point I wrestled with constantly and still do (e.g., in regard to my breaks with Abrahamic religion and my first career). The fact is, we're tasked up to our necks in making choices. All the harder when were flying solo. People choose whether to get involved and it is up to them to choose with what and where and how to go about it.
It's a core subject in any "practice of living" model- new or old- and one that is only going to get more complicated in the future.
If only (a) there were only 6 million H. sapiens on the planet (whose core value was sustainability) and (b) there were a SkyMan to tell us what to do and how to do it, there wouldn't be so much argument and the path would be way clearer, and life would be way simpler. Yeah, if only.
See, I knew Port wasn't a scientologist! LOL
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WBraun
climber
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May 28, 2010 - 11:49am PT
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Any religion manufactured by man and that includes your twisted ideas, Corn Nut, is completely defective from the start and will mislead and ruin the very people you are trying to help including you.
History is littered with these nightmares and failures brought on by imperfect experimental knowledge.
Stop trying to play God.
Imitator
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 28, 2010 - 11:51am PT
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The movie was on HBO last night.
I have to admit it was pretty entertaining.
He did manage to get a hold of some real pieces of work for his interviews though, not the best sampling of religious folk.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2010 - 11:53am PT
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Brawny- that is you still thinking in the "religious" trap.
Don't you have an LM741 op amp or two you can wirewrap into your aluminum pointy hat. It might empower your mental speculations.
Get off my grass.
Pate wrote-
"I completely understand what you're saying, although I think it is a little bit lame."
People who have made the choice to get involved in a particular problem solving area will see those who haven't as lame. It's human nature and we're tasked to fight it out.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 28, 2010 - 11:56am PT
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Ning Hou, beautiful stuff!!
Thanks DMT, you made some excellent points!
Yes, focus is crucial!
"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
EDIT: From the moment we rise, to the time we go to sleep, life is all about choosing.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
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But did you also see how angry the one guy got? As if he was himself Jehovah's representative on earth. And would be given high marks for it later on (the mythical) Judgment Day. Delusion. Hubris. Condescending. And religulous.
No critiquing religion? "Abrahamic religions get a free pass." This is one custom that's changing lightning quick.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 28, 2010 - 12:31pm PT
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What aspect of faith is not narcissistic insofar as faith is the foundation of completely idiosyncratic or personally held beliefs that stand outside of any real ontological certainty and yet the believer holds them to be true?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 28, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
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brotherbbock!
What movie was on HBO last night?
It sounds interesting!
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 28, 2010 - 12:48pm PT
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Trip wrote:
brotherbbock!
What movie was on HBO last night?
It sounds interesting!
I assume your joking.....but if your not, it was the movie that this whole thread is about.........Bill Maher's Religulous
EDIT: It was on Showtime......not HBO
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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May 28, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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The Daily Show is not news???
In my opinion, the best Jon Stewart quote ever...
"I have not moved out of the comedians box into the news box, the news box is movin' towards me."
Any religion manufactured by man and that includes your twisted ideas, Corn Nut, is completely defective from the start and will mislead and ruin the very people you are trying to help including you.
Werner, I hate to break it to you but this includes your Abrahamic religion as well.
EDIT 10:54: So this rhetorical attack on Religulous and our (Pate, HFCS, Myself...) agnostic/atheist diatribes is because you are what? A satanist? Is Alister Crowley your hero? If you drink the blood of trait positive virgin girls will you live forever?
EDIT 11:38: The Daily Show is not news??? /s
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WBraun
climber
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May 28, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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Abrahamic religion
You ignorant insects, I have nothing to do with any so called "Abrahamic religion".
Mental speculator.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 28, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
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"I assume your joking"
I lost interest after the opening lines, which i corrected Mr. Maher on up thread...figured the rest of it would be filled with similar/typical inaccuracy. I'll have to finish watching it.
And i haven't followed the last couple pages of posts here.
Thought perhaps he had come up with something new...i mean it's at least 2 yrs. old.
Well i'll take a look at it/finish looking at it...what the hell.
I don't have much regard for someone that hasn't put in the minimal amount of research to realize that Jesus Christ/Bible does not say "He is going to come down and END THE WORLD, and take His believers off to heaven!!!
Pathetic.
I thought i already convinced everybody that B. M. is clueless.
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WBraun
climber
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May 28, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
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Hey Dr F
Mental speculator is my line.
Copy cat, think for yourself like you always preach. I always told you you guys couldn't think your way out of paper bag.
See you can't .....
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go-B
climber
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May 28, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
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Ephesians 4:18, They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
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WBraun
climber
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May 28, 2010 - 02:30pm PT
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Pate you ignorant slut.
I posted this morning then went on a rescue and just came back.
You're a mental speculator too.
You have no clue what I'm doing .....
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 28, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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Dr.F, I was just commenting on the first minute(60 seconds)of Religulous.
It will be the "End of the Age"!
Not the "End of the World"...KA-Boom! At Megiddo(Armageddon).
Jesus Christ is going to set up His kingdom(for 1,000 years)right here on earth. There will be hundreds of millions people here on earth, perhaps more than a billion(that survived the Tribulation).
Any Christian or basic Bible scholar(Bible 101)knows this.
If B.M. can't get something as basic as that right(in the first 60 seconds no less)i have my doubts.
Like i said, i will watch the rest...
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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May 28, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
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I figured it out, Brawny thinks he is Yoda, that why his dialect makes no sense... if I was hearing him in that voice I might understand better.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 28, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
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Dr.F- "You have a opinion about evolution, and atheism, but you are farther from BM about being clueless about these subjects."
Perhaps this is true, but i would not flippantly misquote Darwin.
He showed a total disregard, a frivolous disrespect for Bible doctrine.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 28, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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The fact is, we're tasked up to our necks in making choices. All the harder when were flying solo. People choose whether to get involved and it is up to them to choose with what and where and how to go about it.
It's a core subject in any "practice of living" model- new or old- and one that is only going to get more complicated in the future.
---------
Now the above is the old "self-reliance," or "self-propulsion" model that harks back to the cowboys, "sand" (heroic self containment), going it alone, and so forth, basically a will-based system that looks to include all relative data in order to efficiently make choices, then push them through with will and commitment. This is also known as the "alcoholic model," not because it uses quantifiable data in the decision making process, but because the person has (narcissism) designated himself the "higher power," and will power is relied upon as the prime mover.
On the other hand we have doctrine, or myth-based "practice of living" models that are based on the belief that the given ethics are divine mandates yada yada. These models are frequently bashed on this and other threads by pot shotting fragments of arcane cosmology found in old religious texts, and by postulating the "God" of these religions as a "thing" or "entity," howling at the manifest absurdity of such a construct, and then relegating the God-thing to a mere idea, a feeling, a belief, a speculation. Something is either matter, or it's not real. It's no-thing, correct?
There is yet another way different than either of these approaches which, in my experience, is the very opposite of snake oil and speculation.
JL
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 28, 2010 - 03:29pm PT
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Welcome back, Wes!
John
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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May 28, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
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Some of you have crossed the line of what is appropriate and of value to this forum...that being said and the resulting shiz that will continue...I offer the above as my way of also saying KMA.....
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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May 28, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
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Some of you have crossed the line of what is appropriate and of value to this forum...
The only possible inappropriate religious discussion is one that results in a policy that is thrust upon those that dont believe. Everything else is just idle conversation that you can take or leave.
Edit: BTW Luggi, "KMA"... so very christ-like of you!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 28, 2010 - 05:22pm PT
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Pate!
Today is someone in my family's birthday! I have to meet them somewhere at three(3 PM)!
I will take this up with you when i return some time this evening!
I was referring to Mr. Mahers opening sentences. He say's that "I am standing on the very spot that Revelation says Jesus is going to come down and END THE WORLD, AND TAKE HIS BELIEVERS OFF TO HEAVEN."
FALSE!
No where in Revelation does it say that!
I already told you what it says in Rev.....
Late....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 28, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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I can't wait ! ! ! ! !
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 28, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
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Dr.F!!!!
Weschrist posted the link to the movie on about the third page of this thread!
Watch it!
EDIT: Weschrist May 25 2010, 7:27 PM(third page)!!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
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This is religulous:
"Jehovah (God Jehovah) wants you to smite the infidel."
This is religulous:
"Wouldn't it be bad just to think we live every day till we die and then there is nothing..."
This is religulous:
"You weren't there (in pre-scientific times) so how do you know."
It's not even 10:00a this Sunday morning, and I've already read too much religulous on the Taco.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
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What, you guys haven't come across even one religulous example in the last couple of weeks? Hard to believe. Don't you guys care anymore about advancing the "practice" of living?
Believe me, it WILL carry over to politics and law, general life concerns, etc.
I'll have to make up for lost ground. Here's one, here's religulous.
Climbera wrote on a related thread:
"...then is this all there is... We die, and that's it? That just doesn't sit well with me. Seems pretty pointless...
The challenge for humanity is to adapt to Nature. As Carl Sagan put it once, Nature doesn't require Herself to fit human ambition. In other words, it is more like the other way around.
Spend your limited time, energy and resources adapting to the new understanding (science education), not fighting it.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Feb 12, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Feb 12, 2015 - 11:58pm PT
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You guys have already gotten into religious truthiness.
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| Messages 1 - 179 of total 179 in this topic |
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