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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 9, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
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Easily the most talented and accomplished American climber prior to World War I, Oliver Perry-Smith is neither widely known or appreciated since his best routes are tucked away in the traditionally bold and little visited Dresden area. He was an integral player in developing what would become the prevailing bold style in Saxony.
Perry-Smith left the scene just ahead of WWI and left behind an impressive body of testpiece climbs while his contemporaries in North America were still exploring the frontiers of fourth class technical climbing. J. Monroe Thorington provides an exhaustive survey of the career of this extraordinary gentleman in the 1964 American Alpine Journal.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I've always wondered about the arrogance or ignorance of American climbers in the late 50's (you know who they are) who claimed the first 5.9 ascent.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
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I hope that we get lucky and somebody posting has done his hardest routes. Moves of 5.7 difficulty would be radical enough for those days!
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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May 10, 2010 - 10:26am PT
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Steve, Thanks for posting the article. It has always been one of my all-time favorite climber profile articles--a truely exceptional performer. I was only able to do one of OPS's routes during my very brief visit to Dresden in 1981--the Sudriss on the Falkenstein--solid 5.8, maybe 9 wide crack--and far from his hardest, but what a great climb up an amazing formation. If it wasn't for a team of East German climbers whom we met on the summit and led us down the inobvious descent "maze" we'd still probably be up there today!!!! (No guidebook etc, just recognized the route from one of the photos in the article, so we were lacking in little details such as how to get down.) Even in the strictly-controlled society that East Germany was then, the locals whom we met were exceptionally open and friendly, even inviting us to spend the night in their tiny weekend home to save us from having to take the train ride to and from the city despite the possible risks from the Stasi-- the secret police. I remember one of the most enjoyable evenings ever communicating quite effectively despite knowing few words of each others languages and passing the tiny German/English dictionary back and forth looking for the correct words as we learned of each others lives and climbing in the then very separated societies. And the next day they brought us to some most excellent climbs--though not OPS's.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 10, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
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"Daddy, how do they get the rope up there?"
"Well, son, they hand it to a stud like Mr Perry-Smith and he climbs up there all by his lonesome dragging his huge sack of cojones."
So for my edification how did they get down?
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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May 10, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
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Very good question Reilly. I know that on the Falkenstein we had to jump a rock "crevice" or 2, down climb some steps carved into the rock--apparently initially carved by lookouts in the middle ages or earlier--then down a series of interconnected chimneys and passageways. On our other climbs--up isolated towers (Falkenstein is more of a "butte" than a tower)we rapped off. I'm not sure when rappelling was "invented" but I always associate it with Hans Dulfer (early body rappels were called "dulfersitz"in German) but he was active towards the end of OPS's career, and therefore after many of the ascents of the most audacious towers such as Barberine (pictured in the article). Usually during the early days of climbing the leaders (normally guides in the Alps) would lower the followers/clients down the steep bits and effectively solo down-climb themselves afterwards. And I'm sure that similar tactics were used on the easier towers, but would have been even more impressive than the "up' climb on Barberine, etc. My guess is that they used some primitive (and very dangerous) form of roping down--such as hand-over-hand down a rope--on these routes. Maybe John or Steve has more info on this.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 10, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
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Back in 1985, I submitted an application to go on a climber's exchange to Dresden that was sponsored by the AAC. Ad Carter reviewed the applications and I was one of the American climbers selected to go. Unfortunately, at the time, I was fresh out of college and had traveled to Paris for a month over the summer (not so unfortunate really) to study French.
While I was gone, my acceptance letter came in the mail and my parents said nothing. By the time I flew home to LA, I read the letter saying I have to be in Prague in three days. I was out of cash, no visa, no way of getting back to Europe on such short notice. I had to call Ad Carter to let him know in the hopes that someone else might be able to fill my spot. Man, was he pissed.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 10, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
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My guess is that they used some primitive (and very dangerous) form of roping down--such as hand-over-hand down a rope--on these routes. Maybe John or Steve has more info on this.
Seems like I've seen a photo (maybe one on my site) in which a crude Dulfer-like arrangement was used. But it was such a macho game at Dresden that I suspect they went hand over hand a lot. As late as the early 1960s, Bob Kamps and I would occasionally descend Needles (SD) spires hand over hand. You could walk down on the nubbins. Maybe klk would chime in on the issue of very early rope-downs?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 10, 2010 - 11:17pm PT
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Claiming the first 5.9 was easy for Americans without a worldview and for Californians without a national view. Truth be told some righteous, unreported climbing was going on in New England at an earlier time. Oh, and then there was Europe.
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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May 11, 2010 - 03:31am PT
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Steve
Thanks (again) for a very interesting and historic post. I agree with Jim's observation that it was typical for climbers in the 60's to be quite unaware of any climbing activities outside of one's own little close knit group.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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May 11, 2010 - 09:27am PT
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Being a nit-picking lawyer, I will point out that technically the 1950s Californians DID climb the first routes GRADED 5.9--its just that much harder routes had been climbed long before elsewhere, but either were ungraded or graded using other systems unknown or undecipherable by them.For example, John Turner was grading his routes in New England and Canada as 5 or 6, the British mostly "very severe', or, occasionally "extremely severe" or, even, "exceptionally severe". And what did the Dresden "5c" mean to them--even if they were aware of the grade? The Californians developed a new, more nuanced grading system, or,actually, they greatly improved upon the existing system in that area, in a successful effort to better communicate the relative difficulties of the routes that they were climbing. It was only the implication, or maybe the explicit claims, that these routes represented new levels of difficulty that was incorrect.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2010 - 08:36pm PT
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As good as OPS was, it would be very interesting to know how long his Grade VI and VII testpieces went before being repeated by anyone else. His compatriots seem like a pretty game bunch in their accounts of their climbs. What was OPS using for footwear on the hard stuff? Wrestling shoes or somesuch?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 11, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
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So for my edification how did they get down?
Down-climbing was standard. Many of the towers have easier routes. The Falkenstein, for instance, would've been downclimbed via the Schusterweg, which is a set of easy 5th class chimneys.
Roping down would've been done as folks have suggested-- leaders in last position as they had been the first. The leader must not fall used to mean something.
The development of rappelling or abseiling is a bit mysterious. In the Alps (i.e., Golden Age and earlier), it was fairly common to fix a rope (sometimes a knotted one) over steep dangerous passages for the descent. (Mummery's account of the Grepon has a classic account.)
Doubling a rope, so you could pull it and take it with you, seems to have appeared by the late 1870s. The earliest illustration I've seen dates from 1883. In it, the climber is yarding down hand over hand. But all sorts of frcition techniques were well known for rope climbing, and everyone who'd trained at a Turnverein would've known them. The Dulfersitz was likely a minor improvement upon a chaotic mix of techniques employed at different crags.
And if you had a long enough rope, someone on the ground could lower the leader off the opposite side of a tower.
But basically, you're soloing all day, all the time. There was no real protection. You had to be proficient at downclimbing. Just like now, for those who still do it.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 11, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
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They appear to have worn some sort of rubber or rope soled gym shoes, as can be seen in some of the photos on my site. They did take off their shoes and climb barefoot or in socks upon occasion. OPS's first climb in Saxony he dressed in elegant British attire with nailed boots,and was chastised for his footwear, I believe.
I don't remember CA climbers of the 1950s claiming the very first "5.9" ascents (Alan's comments being appropriate), but they were pleased with themselves. The feats of Joe Brown were known and admired and it was assumed he was climbing at least at their level. But Saxony was indeed a foreign country and I don't recall any one alluding to the spectacular early history of the area. I only learned about it years later. But do keep in mind that routes on soft sandstone change over time and that shoulder stands were employed frequently on short difficult pitches. The runouts are a different matter!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 11, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
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But they were pleased with themselves.
heh.
hey john-- check yr email. i'm en route to the front range.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 11, 2010 - 09:25pm PT
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he dressed in elegant British attire with nailed boots,and was chastised for his footwear, I believe.
Off-topic ironic aside: I saw Russians in nailed boots in the Pamirs in the late 70's!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2010 - 11:31am PT
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So does anyone think that OPS flirted with 5.10 anywhere along the way because solid 5.9 rated difficulty seems like a sure bet.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 14, 2010 - 12:54pm PT
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So does anyone think that OPS flirted with 5.10 anywhere along the way because solid 5.9 rated difficulty seems like a sure bet.
Teufelsturm is a candidate.
P-S and Fehrmann probably did some climbing that we'd call 10a or so. Again, we don't always know exactly what they did-- some of the cruxes on the early routes involved short, difficult traverses into the crack systems. They may have tensioned some of those. (i.e., look at that traverse photo from the AAJ, above).
Fehrmann and others pressed well into grades we'd call 5.10 after P-S had left Dresden.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2010 - 01:09pm PT
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How early on did drilled anchors enter the picture around Dresden?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2010 - 01:00pm PT
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Eyebolt History Bump!
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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May 29, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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Bad Dude!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 29, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
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I had the honor and pleasure to have met OP-S back in the late 1960s; he was very elderly and nearly blind with cataracts. At that time he was living with his son in South Denver, just across the street from my uncle. My uncle suggested one day that "Rodger would get a kick out of old Perry-Smith" to my aunt. I about fell on the floor when I asked if it was Oliver Perry-Smith, and the answer was "of course."
He was still in possession of his faculties and answered my questions with a glowing enthusiasim. He mentioned his membership in a club "Schwarze Kamin" and they had a flag that they would put on the new spires that they climbed in Dresden: a "Death's Head" Fahne, that showed that the climb had been done by the Schwarze Kamin.
He died in Denver not too long after I met him.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2010 - 03:34pm PT
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Thanks for the historical legwork guys! So no biners either for OP-S while he was most active? Wow! Proto-pirate even...
Rodger- What an honor to meet him. I hope that you are recovering from your mishap!
The OP ends with WWI but does anyone know if he climbed anything of consequence in North America after arriving here?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2010 - 04:14pm PT
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A true contender without a doubt! The OP section about his racing etiquette in passing is hilarious. Nothing but a menacing roar would suffice to get the slackers out of the way! LOL
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 30, 2010 - 06:06pm PT
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According to O P-S, he did some "scrambling around" in Boulder Canyon and the Boulder area. He was a strong "Alleingeher" (soloist). This was back in the 1940s. He was awfully old when I talked with him, but still lucid. He said "never used any ropes." Pitons? Forget it! He described the rope-soled shoes that he used in Germany.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2010 - 06:14pm PT
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The Flatirons would have certainly have been irresistable!
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 30, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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He mentioned his membership in a club "Schwarze Kamin" and they had a flag that they would put on the new spires . . .
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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Nice Death's Head! I wonder how psyched his chums were to go retrieve those grisly summit mementoes! Great stuff, John!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2010 - 12:58am PT
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Pondering OPS's accomplishments makes me understand the reserve and humility in Fritz Wiessner despite his considerable accomplishments and talent. Hanging out in Oli's world would tend to temper one's self estimation.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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i learned to climb for several years in the late 1950s before meeting any other climbers, by digging up old european books from the boise library and looking at the pictures. I couldn't read either french or german.
there were several types of rappel techniques described in those old books. i had a hard time understanding the dulfersitz without a picture, and i adopted the salewa technique, aka guides' rappel. I still use that technique on slabs and short stretches.
the rope-soled shoes were known as espradrilles. someone once showed me a pair in the tetons in the early 1960's. (i think it might have been Joe Fitschen.) I don't know when Kronhoffer Klettershuen were introduced, but they were my first and favorite climbing shoes. I wish they were still available, as they have advantages over any of the modern shoes.
shoulder stand techniques were discussed in some detail; aka court echelles; as were stacked ice axes for short stretches of steep ice. my first ice axe was a charlet moser design with cutouts for stacking axes
a favorite discovery was an english translation of Herman Buhle's Lonely Challenge, read over and over. His description of some of his rock climbs became my guide in life. I find it hard to believe that he wasn't climbing at least to 5.8-.9 levels.
when i got to the teton's and got Leigh Ortenburger's guide, i studied the Grand Teton North Face extensively in the spirit of Buhle's climbing. another later favorite was Heinrich Harrer's The White Spider
when i met chouinard in the tetons, he referred me to some other european resources and he talked about how americans were climbing in the shadow of european accomplishments. Yvon was working hard to catch up
yvon's engineered ascent on East Temple West Face in the Wind Rivers with Fred Becky and Art Gran was intended to be one of the first such american routes in the mountains (i was there watching). Yvon and Becky were fresh off the north face of edith cavell. I was eager for the eiger, but yvon told me to count him out, as you only get to do one route like that in your life and his one was edith cavell.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
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Bump...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 21, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
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Bumpity Bump!
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 22, 2011 - 01:30am PT
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I recently was in communication with OPS's great-grandaughter, Eleanor. She told me she was writing a screenplay about OPS's adventures in Europe. Wouldn't that be great!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
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Certainly a character worth celebrating!
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Ian Parsons
climber
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Jan 29, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
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In spring/summer 2000 I worked for a few months on a rigging job between Berlin and Dresden. A number of our crew were climbers from Dresden, and we routinely spent the weekends with them in the Elbsandsteingebirge. On one occasion, while perusing local guidebooks, I sought out the earliest reference that I could find to a route with the Saxon grade of VIIIa - equating to UIAA VI+, 5.10a/b. E1/E2, F6a/6a+, etc, or thereabouts; it was in 1900. A bit before OPS, but possibly an idea of the springboard he was launching from!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Aug 15, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
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This thread DESERVES a BUMP!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
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It would have been amazing if somebody had thought to do a documentary about climbing in Saxony back in the 1960s when some of these guys were still around to talk about their own brand of madness! LOL
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Aug 15, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
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Of course Oliver did use a rope, as we see in many photos, so
his "never used a rope" comment was either a slip or misheard or
whatever. He honed his skills with Albert Kunze, and their initial
ascent on the Falkenstein took place March 1, 1903. It is impossible
to say how difficult his climbs were, but if anything we should
err on the side of higher rather than lower, since he had no
chalk and used tennis shoes and or those rope-bottom shoes....,
and manila rope. To repeat some of those routes today is no easy
task, in modern gear. The consciousness was simply different
then, and he was far beyond the general standards of the day--as
has been noted. On occasion, as I understand, they used rope knots
for either belays or points of protection. In other words, a knot
was made in a rope and jammed in a crack.... It seems, while the
spiritual leader of Elbsandstein, Rudolph Fehrmann,
believed aid should not be used,
so that they could protect the daring, challenge, and beautiful charm
of the rock, a leader was allowed to fix an occasional "safety ring"
attached to a large spike driven into a drilled hole and epoxied in
place. Oliver was quite a master at buildering, chiefly on churches
and building facades of the east.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 15, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
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I sought out the earliest reference that I could find to a route with the Saxon grade of VIIIa - equating to UIAA VI+, 5.10a/b. E1/E2, F6a/6a+, etc, or thereabouts; it was in 1900. Cool - I've wanted to see one of those Elbesandstein guidebooks.
The earliest such hard routes that I've known of, based on this AAJ article and other sources, are:
 6a (5.9, DDR VIIb) 1906 Teufelsturm Elbsandstein Oliver Perry-Smith, W. Huenig, Rudolf Fehrmann
Note: another grade VIIb was done a few days earlier, but this is the more famous route.
6a+ (5.10a, DDR VIIc) 9/1910 Kreutzturm, Suedriss Elbsandstein Max Matthaeus
from:
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Eclint/yos/hard.htm
and
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1783404&msg=1785369#msg1785369
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aug 15, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
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documentary about climbing in Saxony back in the 1960s when some of these guys were still around There is at least Steve Roper's nice article of climbing there with Fritz Weissner, which you posted from Ascent (1974) http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1018427/Dresden-Classic-Steve-Roper-Ascent-1974
and the magazine article/photos lower on the page from when Henry Barber, Steve Wunsch and Rick Hatch climbed there a couple of years later and met Berndt Arnold, the local hardman at the time.
But you probably meant seeing/hearing Oliver Perry-Smith on film - that would have been cool, even if it wasn't a video of him climbing....
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Aug 15, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
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OPS's frequent partner was Rudolf Fehrmann, who's climbing skills were probably on par with those of Oliver. When Germany went to war, Fehrmann, an attorney, became a military judge. He used his influence to keep some of the climbing areas near Dresden open to climbers. He was captured by the Soviets and imprisoned at one of their camps, where he expired supposedly from natural causes. I seem to recall he was in his early 60s.
It's good to see this thread revived. Many historical references on this site concern feats performed after 1950, and quite frequently in California. Perry Smith and a few others are truly the fathers of our sport, but to compare their accomplishments with those of later climbers is misleading. "The past is a foreign country . . . they do things differently there" ("The Go-Between" by Hartley)
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Aug 16, 2013 - 09:11am PT
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I think that Fehrmann's later career was not quite as begnign as indicated in John's post above. According to Messner and other sources, he was rabidly anti-semetic, an active Nazi official, and was imprisoned awaiting trial for war crimes (I don't know the specifics)when he died after the war.
This doesn't change the fact that he was the leading figure in the Dresden climbing scene for over a decade, both in terms of his actual climbing accomplishments and his expounding in print on the philosophy and rules for climbing in that region--rules which are still largely followed today.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
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Anyone have a photo of Rudolf?
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Aug 17, 2013 - 02:47pm PT
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 18, 2013 - 10:20am PT
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Does Fehrmann mention OPS in his book?
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Aug 18, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
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Wow, great thread Steve. Thanks as always for your efforts to educate on the history of our sport.
I am reading Jim Perrin’s Shipton and Tilman dual biography, which was just published this year. It is very enjoyable and concerns the British exploration of the Himalaya during the decade of the 1930s. Perrin is a wonderful writer and a top historian of climbing, and some of the joys of his books are the comments and digressions that he puts into the copious footnotes. In a discussion of Shipton and Tilman’s rock climbing prowess, he compares them to the top climbers in the rest of Europe and he has this to say about Dresden climbers:
The achieved standards of rock-climbing on outcrops in the Elbsandsteingebirge, south of Dresden…was by far the highest in the world in the period between 1920 and 1960, and was not paralleled elsewhere probably until the late 1960s or early 1970s, when Britain and the USA began to establish a brief hegemony in the sport through a handful of rare talents—Henry Barber, John Bachar, Jim Bridwell, Ron Fawcett, John Allen and so on.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Aug 18, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
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Fehrmann and OPS have several fine routes in the Dolomites which are still eagerly sought out and repeated today: Stabelerturm, the center of the 3 Vajolet Towers, and the Gulia di Brenta.
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wayne burleson
climber
Amherst, MA
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Mar 29, 2014 - 07:49am PT
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Just returned from a few days in Elbsandstein. Much respect! Photos coming soon.
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Lasti
Trad climber
Budapest
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May 26, 2014 - 09:56am PT
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Hey Wayne, where's the TR?
BUMP for more SANDSTEIN
Lasti
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 26, 2014 - 10:33am PT
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What is revealed by our view into the past European climbing is how far behind the best German and Italian climbers we were in the 1960s and even into the 1970s. The sonorous pronouncements alluded to by donini earlier, about "the first 5.9," are laughable in retrospect.
Based on my first experiences in the Dolomites (1963 & 1964), and subsequently compared to my first trip to Yosemite in 1965 had me wondering about just what was going on? In retrospect, 5.7 and 5.8 climbing was commonplace UIAA Gr.V and V+. I inadvertently climbed a route on Cima Ovest in 1964, without bringing etriers and climbing everything clean and free: Via Demuth-Lichtenegger-Peringer, which is in the current guidebook as a 5.10b. That route was established before W.W. II in 1933; currently listed in the Bernardi Guidebook as Route #32. My partner, a Brit, Lew Brown, called it a "a very Hard VS" in British terms. It was also my first introduction to using nuts as protection.
During my 2013 climbing trip to the Dolomites: The standard there has risen a lot, mostly due to much improved footwear, harnesses, and availability of cams.
Added in edit: as P.S. to Patrick Oliver; he was referring to his "scrambles" around Boulder in the 1940s when he made his comments about "no ropes." All his Elbsandstein antics, and those in the Dolomites were roped.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2015 - 10:46am PT
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Giant Bump...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2015 - 01:51pm PT
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Bump for an iconic talent active a century ago...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2016 - 11:51am PT
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Wild style bump...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2017 - 04:14pm PT
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Saxony bump...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2018 - 07:56pm PT
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Classic history bump...
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jan 20, 2018 - 08:30pm PT
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I wonder about the accuracy of comparing grades of climbs on soft sandstone over several generations. Some might be a bit harder today than when originally done. Just a thought.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2018 - 08:35pm PT
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Some climbs definitely get harder over time with foot traffic.
Hey John- I have something to send you if you are interested.
Cheers
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 21, 2018 - 06:38pm PT
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best American bad ass no one knows about
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| Messages 1 - 59 of total 59 in this topic |
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