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mountain dog
Trad climber
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Poetic, but what a load of wishful thinking. Life just isn't that easy. Even if you believe in the power of prayer.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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If you want Bible study, there are thousands of sites you can go to.
This is a climbing website. Sometimes it veers into politics but no....just no. This is not a Bible study site. Lace up your shoes, climb something and get back to us. Until then I can recommend you google Bible study websites to share amongst your friends.
BTW...I can bring up more Biblical quotes about slavery, rape, murder, etc than you can hope for so don't throw Biblical stuff here. It's not an appropriate venue. Please take it somewhere else if you want to debate this stuff.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I agree with Fluoride - take it somewhere else.
Also, it's clear that you can read whatever you want into any of the so-called holy books. No need to waste time on it here.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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If I'm going to read fiction, it won't be the bible. Get this crap off a climbing website! Are you just postingthis to piss me off?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I disagree, Flouride. There are issues unique to Christian climbers. Too often, the non-Christians try to shut down those threads in a way they would never consider (or tolerate) for threads aimed, say, at ice climbers, aid climbers California climbers, women (or men) climbers, or any other proper subset of Supertopans.
I was particularly saddened when one thread, asking Christians how they reconciled their faith with their climbing, got so attacked that the author deleted it. It's something I suspect all Christian climbers struggle with.
If you aren't interested in our discussion, no one forces you to participate.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oh, to answer your question, Juan, for me it's in Psalm 104: "I will sing to the LORD as long as I live. I will give praise while I have my being."
John
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Our bible is called "freedom of the hills". The only bible worth mentioning o. A CLIMBING site!
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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The routes that create the most respect are those that are established ground-up and on- sight- Ed Webster White mountains guide.
OOOPPPSSS ! Wrong bible
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jstan
climber
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What a great idea this thread is!
My favourite Obituary from today's LA Times
Susan Hill dies at 61; women's rights advocate
She established abortion clinics in rural areas where women had no access to such services. The clinics were often the target of protesters, and she lived under constant personal threats.
By Leah Friedman
February 8, 2010
Susan Hill, a national women's rights advocate and the owner of several abortion clinics around the country, died Jan. 30 at a hospital in Raleigh, N.C. She was 61 and had breast cancer.
Hill focused on establishing clinics in rural areas where women had no access to abortion services. She opened more clinics than anyone else in the United States, sometimes drawing 1,000 protesters at a time. She sued protesters 34 times for blocking entrances and physically preventing women from entering the facilities.
"She's probably the toughest person I ever knew," said her brother Dan Hill. "She's the only person I knew who wore a bulletproof vest to work or was supposed to wear one to work. People really wanted to kill her, and she never flinched."
In 2007, Hill received the Nancy Susan Reynolds award from North Carolina for public advocacy in the face of personal risk.
"She was a determined pioneer for women's rights, always elegant and super brilliant," said Lajuan Carpenter, Hill's assistant at the National Women's Health Foundation, which has clinics in Raleigh, as well as in Georgia, Indiana and Mississippi.
Hill, who was born Aug. 7, 1948, in Durham, N.C., and graduated from Meredith College with a social work degree in 1970, began her career in 1973 in a Florida abortion clinic outside Miami one week after the Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade made abortion legal.
A small girl walked through Hill's door that day, hands curled by cerebral palsy, pregnant by an abusive uncle. Hill recalled in 2007 that the girl was too stricken and disabled to speak about her problem, but her mother had driven her 250 miles that morning to fix it.
Hill said it was the women's stories that kept her motivated even though bomb threats, death threats, arsonists and insults marked her career.
"If people knew the stories, they wouldn't be so vicious," Hill said.
Dan Hill said his sister always loved a good fight and never backed down. But she was also very compassionate, he said.
"The day she found out her twin sister had breast cancer, she closed up her office in New York and moved down here to take care of Nancy," Dan Hill said. Nancy Hill died of cancer in 1991.
In addition to Dan, Hill is survived by another brother, Frank.
One of Hill's doctors in Florida, David Gunn, was killed in 1993 after being shot three times in the back by a protester, Michael Frederick Griffin, now serving a life sentence. Last year, Hill appeared on the "Rachel Maddow Show" on MSNBC after Dr. George Tiller was shot dead in his church where he was serving as an usher. Tiller was one of the nation's few providers of late-term abortions.
"We're still here, and we're going to be here," she told Maddow.
"In spite of recent threats, she wouldn't wear the bulletproof vest," said her longtime friend Ann Rose. "She was not going to let them control her life. She wasn't going to be intimidated."
As for her clinics, "They will go on as always," Rose said, "except without such a prominent voice."
Friedman writes for the News & Observer of Raleigh, N.C., a McClatchy newspaper.
news.obits@latimes.com
latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-me-susan-hill8-2010feb08,0,7007915.story
Copyright © 2010, The Los Angeles Times
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Seriously, this is a friggin climbing website.
Tell me about a new route you climbed. Tell me about how your shoes suck. Tell me about ice conditions in Lee Vining. Tell me about some awesome new partner you climbed with.
This isn't something that belongs on a climbing website. Religious debate has it's place. But not here. I shudder to think how many really good and worthy CLIMBING threads will get bumped off the front page for this.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Wow, what a co-incidence. I was going for a line in Psalm 104, too. [I think it's 104...]
It's in reference to God, and I always think about the line when I look across from El Cap at the clouds swirling round the Cathedral Spires:
"He who touches the mountains and they smoke."
Cheers,
PTP and PTL Pete
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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This is my favoritest bible passage!:
Ezekiel 25:17:
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Currently in San Diego
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Psalm 91 always has been my favorite.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"You shall fear only the Lord your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name!" Deuteronomy 6:13.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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I like the entire book of hooteronimy! Can't go wrong.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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If susan Hill were still alive, she could abort this thread.
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Steve L
Gym climber
SUR
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Hahahaha!! What a cheap way to get to 1,000+ posts!
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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thank you for stating my case flouride...
"If you want Bible study, there are thousands of sites you can go to.
This is a climbing website. Sometimes it veers into politics but no....just no. This is not a Bible study site. Lace up your shoes, climb something and get back to us. Until then I can recommend you google Bible study websites to share amongst your friends.
BTW...I can bring up more Biblical quotes about slavery, rape, murder, etc than you can hope for so don't throw Biblical stuff here. It's not an appropriate venue. Take it somewhere else if you want to debate this stuff. "
take it somewhere else....
out
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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it would be easier to thread a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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jesus wept
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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I can never decide between,
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."
Psalm 137:9
OR
"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
1 Samuel 15:3
OR
"Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the perverse."
1 Peter 2:18
OR
“If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her."
Deuteronomy 25:11-12
Oh, I give up!!!!!!!!!!111111111
There are just so many great bible passages!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Be Fishers of Men – Not of Fish (John 21:1-17)
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Gene
Social climber
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What about Psalm 72.3?
Let the mountains bring peace to the people.
Can we all accept this one, believer or knott?
Gene
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howlostami
Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
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Easy.
Book of Armaments, Chapter 2, verses 9-21,
“ ...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the Lord did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu... [At this point, the friar is urged by Brother Maynard to "skip a bit, brother"]... And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceedest on to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it." Amen."
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Gene
Social climber
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then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceedest on to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached...
That's funny! Good parody. LOL
Gene
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why Flouride, Jingy and others act so threatened by this post. I've decided it must be a bit like citizens in the Roman Empire dealing with slaves. Roman law forbade slaves from wearing any distinctive clothing or devices because the Romans didn't want the slaves to know who the other slaves were, for fear they would revolt if they knew they were so numerous. I think the anti-Christians here feel the same way. They don't want Christian climbers on the Taco to know who the other ones are, although I can't think of a rational reason why.
John
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people I killed because they pissed me off.
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Gene
Social climber
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So sayeth the Coach. Heareth you knott the wailing and gnashing of your wives, sons and minions in the City of the Anointed, the Land of Saints? Wounded and bloodied we are by the evil legions of the Horse’s shoes, but, alas, I say unto you, the battle has yet to be finished. Verily, I say unto you and your generations by seven, enter the final half with a feint, a ploy, a Truth for the faithful, yet a deceit of the damned. Kicketh the ball the length of four pure, immaculate and sacred sheep, worthy of sacrifice, and place your mightiest men as beast to the left.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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And here I thought the US was a nation of Super Bowl worshippers, bowing down before false idols and all that stuff. Learn something new every day.
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Chip
Trad climber
Sittin' Pretty in Fat City
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It is hard to believe that this group could be so condescending and insensitive to someone's deeply held beliefs. I am sincerely disappointed, not that those I am calling out care for anything but themselves and feeling self-righteous.
Climbing website? Please, this site encompasses what we are concerned and passionette about, not just the selfish act of climbing that we all struggle to justify to ourselves. Where is the outcry when a thread bashing a political view gets thousands of replies. Why the hippocracy? Why the knee jerk hate? You out to be ashamed of yourselves.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It is hard to believe that this group could be so condescending and insensitive to someone's deeply held beliefs. And it's very hard to believe that anyone would show up on a climbers' website and preach about religion. There's a right time and place for everything, and this isn't it.
Note that Cragman (and perhaps other) post reports about their volunteer work in developing countries, often in context of a faith-based organization, and no one minds that. He mostly lets his good works speak for him and his faith - although maybe those he's helping get a bit more of a message. But he doesn't preach at us.
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climbinginchico
Trad climber
Modesto, CA
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Dingus, that's one of my favorite books. My wife's engagement ring to me, which I still wear on my left index finger, has Song of Solomon 6:3 in Hebrew on it.
Whenever I have a tough day I focus on Ephesians 6:13: "Therefore, put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes you will be able to stand your ground. And when all is said and done, to stand." I actually have this tattooed on the inside of my right bicep.
Psalm 91 is a favorite, so are the classic John quotes 3:16 and 14:6. Pretty much anything that is my favorite I have tattooed on me, so I need to include Revelation 22:13.
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apogee
climber
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"It is hard to believe that this group could be so condescending and insensitive to someone's deeply held beliefs."
"He (Cragman) mostly lets his good works speak for him and his faith - although maybe those he's helping get a bit more of a message. But he doesn't preach at us."
Weeeeellll, not so much on his latest Ecuador thread, maybe. But your point still stands.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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One of my favorites...
From the book of JOHN, Chapter 1
"3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
Yeah, I agree it's kinda weird how much some people on this site seem to despise Christianity. Sure, its a climbing site, but the forum seems to have more talk about climate change, politics and the corny side of life than it does climbing.
If folks don't like the sound of a thread they can choose not to click, right?
I have resisted the temptation to click on many a thread over the years.
Like the Math Problem thread...yuck.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why Flouride, Jingy and others act so threatened by this post.
John, I don't think they, or anyone else here is "threatened" by a "What's your favorite bible quote" thread. The problem is something entirely different, and has two parts:
First, as is the case with political posts, or even climbing-related posts, when someone posts a new thread on a topic which is being covered in an existing thread, it just pushes new content off the first page. So, since there's a perfectly good religious thread going already, in which this same subject (bible quotes) comes up on virtually every page, why start a new thread? So not threatened, but irritated.
Second, and maybe more important, is the fact that this question just leads to endless stupidity, and is a big waste of time. The religious folks say "The Holy Bible is the Word of God" They say it over and over and over. But when someone asks the perfectly logical question "Well, what about where the bible says we should [insert bizarre verse about slavery, rape, killing], the answer is "Oh, well, that part doesn't count any more." Which leads to "Well, is it the word of god, or isn't it?" To which no one has a satisfactory answer.
Great big waste of time. You've got your religion, and that's fine. Don't push it on me, and I don't care what you believe. But if you (the plural you, as in you religious folk) want to bring up religion here on ST, then you're going to get asked the hard questions "Where is your god when someone is torturing and raping a child?" and "If the bible is the word of god, then what about [insert bizarre verse about slavery, rape, killing]?
If you bring up your political beliefs, and I question them, you will do your best to explain why you think they make sense. If I ask you how some particular tax breaks will benefit the country, you respond [insert rational explanation]. You may convince me, or you may not, but at least the discussion can be rational.
But with religion it's always the same non-answers when real questions are asked. Totally frustrating.
Anyway, you asked, so that's my take on it.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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The children asked him if to kill was not a sin,
"Not when he looked so fierce!" his mummy butted in.
If looks could kill it would have been us instead of him.
All the children sing....
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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mt10910- "palm 4:73"
?? where is there a palm 4:73 in the Holy Bible?
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jstan
climber
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This morning while researching the Pharisees I was astonished to learn the various religious sects among the Jews before 0 BC were in constant struggles, murders, revolts, in the name of god but
all done to gain secular power over people.
Nothing has changed. Believers are still going around shooting people here today.
So little creativity, after all of this time.
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Oh man, where to begin? So many good ones. WandaFuca had a few favorites. One of which reminded me of this other one from Deuteronomy:
Deuteronomy 23:1
"No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord"
Deuteronomy's full of weirdness:
Deut. 28:53
"And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the FLESH of they sons and of they daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee."
It also contains some important guidelines regarding punishing rapists:
Deut. 22:28-29
"If a man rapes a virgin and gets caught, he must pay 50 pieces of silver to her father, and then marry her."
What if he rapes a non-virgin? What if he doesn't get caught? Here's a good one, although it makes me self-conscious:
Ezekiel 23:19-20
"Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. She lusted after their genitals as large as those of donkeys, and their seminal emission was as strong as that of stallions."
I forget the context, but this one's just strange:
2 Kings 18:27
"Hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?"
Sure thing, buddy. He most certainly hath. Now get up on that wall and start eating poop! That "book" is truly the strangest compilation of nonsense ever gathered. Knock yourselves out, people.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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. Where is the outcry when a thread bashing a political view gets thousands of replies. Why the hippocracy? Why the knee jerk hate? You out to be ashamed of yourselves.
Chip, you must not be paying close attention. There have been loads of threads about off topic threads. Russ basically gave up on the taco because of OT threads. There was a big push to put all politics in one thread, which is why we have that monster. So don't take it too hard that some folks get irritated. Lately there has been a lot of Christian/bible/religious threads and a few posters posting a fair amount of bible type stuff and so some of the natives are restless. Hopefully we can all learn to be respectful of each others needs and strike a balance.
This is a current favorite passage.
I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot: I would you were cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Rev 3 15-16
It speaks to me because I spent many years being pissed off at God, the church, and religion. It is difficult to nearly impossible for God to wake up a person who is lukewarm. They just don't care, so they don't hear the voice of God. Now that I know this, I don't get upset when some try to shut down peoples experience. I know they are the ones closest to being awakened. Will they wake up? I have no idea. I surrender that to God.
People who rail against God no longer upset me. The thing that upsets me the most today is how far off Jesus' teachings the current religious establishment is. There is so much arrogance among so called christians today. They think they are going to heaven because they have professed Jesus. Too bad all teachings about reincarnation was taken out of the bible back in the 4th century. People wouldn't be so arrogant if they understood that they would be coming back here until they fully put on the Christ mind. You don't get a pass on poor behavior just because you accepted Jesus as your savior, nor are good works the sole measure. It is the purity of the heart that is the measure. Lots of us are going to be coming back here to continue to work on that.
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Gene
Social climber
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mt10910,
Can't find the verse you referenced. Psalm 4:73(?) Can you check for me?
gm
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Commandment XI: Preach not, lest ye be preached at.
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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If they want a Christian thread and you don't like it, don't click on it. Most of the people complaining are using the "it's a climbing website" excuse to cover their hate for the subject.
Flouride - how many posts did you do on the Supreme Court Sellout thread? Not exactly about climbin'.
On the other side - If you don't want to be attacked for your views, I wouldn't post on Supertopo. It is automatic and well known by all that you will be attacked or made fun of.
edit: and with the current trend of animations, one of those will probably be made as well.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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John Moosie- "Lately there's been alot of Christian/bible/religeous threads..."
Where? Name a couple please. I would like to read what everyone is complaining about. I know of only one, and it is anti-Christian. It is called "Creationist take called strike...run to dugout!"
I would enjoy reading one, for there alot of others about yogas, chakras etc, but I haven't sees any Christian ones.
Thankyou very much!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Thanks, Ghost, for the reply.
I've apparently not found the thread to which you refer about posting favorite Bible verses.
If this subject is so odious to so many, why not simply ignore the thread? If you think someone is looking for a fight on the innerancy of Scripture, e.g., why give them what they want?
If, in fact, it's a chance for climbers who care to share passages with particular religious, political or practical significance, I don't see how this differs from any other OT thread. It also makes the efforts to stomp it out that much more unwarranted.
I find it particularly odd that so many are so opposed to the existence of this thread that they feel compelled to post multiple times to tell us to go away. That strikes me as rather counterproductive.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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jstan,
The history of the sects present in Palestine at the time of Jesus is, indeed, quite fascinating. If you have the time, the works of Josephus are quite revealing, although Josephus clearly had a personal axe to grind (he was a Zealot who went over to the Roman side). It also makes it easier to understand how someone could get crucified "for saying that people should be nice to each other for a change" (to quote The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy).
John
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I've apparently not found the thread to which you refer about posting favorite Bible verses.
It's the "creationists take a called strike" thread. It may have started out about creationism, but it has become something of a catch-all thread for things religious, in much the same way as the "What is wrong with republicans" thread has become the catch-all political thread. And favorite bible passages are quoted there. Endlessly.
As for Trpl7's comment that that thread is "anti-christian", well, yes, sometimes it is. But it's also pro-christian. Sometimes it is anti-islam. Sometimes it is pro-hindu. Big deal.
T7 also suggested that it would be nice to have a bible passage thread that wasn't anti-Christian:
I would enjoy reading one, for there alot of others about yogas, chakras etc, but I haven't sees any Christian ones.
Hmmm. If you want a thread that is devoted to only the good things about Christianity, you should go to a moderated Christian web forum. You could start such a thread here, but since this is an open forum, where everyone is able to post to every thread, you can't control the outcome. You are welcome to post your thoughts, others are welcome to post theirs. You feel free to contradict those who post atheistic or non-christian thoughts, right? So why be upset when a non-christian questions your ideas?
Personally, I think this would be a pretty dull place if there were nothing but climbing threads. But it is climbing that is the heart and soul of the place, and keeping the number of political and religious threads down seems like a reasonable idea.
D
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I find it particularly odd that so many are so opposed to the existence of this thread that they feel compelled to post multiple times to tell us to go away. That strikes me as rather counterproductive.
I don't know why, considering how many are opposed to any off topic threads. Look at how polarized Christianity has made itself. Either you believe in Jesus, or you are going to hell. You can't believe in any other religion if it doesn't put Jesus first. And if you believe in Jesus, then you are going to heaven no matter how you behave. So yep, people feel a bit of anger towards christianity. And Yes, other religions put their figurehead first, but they also have the same problem. It is just that in America, christianity is the main religion, so it takes the brunt of the abuse. Few people in America have had Hindus knocking on their door trying to "save" them. They do get pissed at the Hare krishnas who bugged them for years in airports. Same thing.
Trip7, all the religious threads have some Christian viewpoints in them. Dont make this so hard. Plus there have been plenty of threads started by Christians about God and their faith. Especially back when Jody was posting. I don't feel like looking for them. They stand out in peoples minds because this is such a polarizing topic. It isn't about who started the thread. Most Americans hear "God", they think Christianity and the bible. Many had it rammed down their throats as children and they want nothing to do with it now.
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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Personally, I think this would be a pretty dull place if there were nothing but climbing threads. But it is climbing that is the heart and soul of the place, and keeping the number of political and religious threads down seems like a reasonable idea.
Ghost I agree.
I think we need a moderator. (hahahahahahahaha)
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Can you say Double Standard???
Doesn't apply. Think about it. Exactly the same treatment is afforded Confucianism as is afforded christianity.
The fact that nobody has gone all anti-confucious whereas some folks do voice anti-christian thoughts might simply be a reflection of the fact that nobody here is anti-Confucius. There is certainly no rule that we aren't allowed to say bad things about Confucius. And there is no private back-room agreement that Confucians get a free pass whereas Christians get picked on. If anti-Christian sentiment is voiced, that is simply a reflection of the fact that anti-Christian sentiment exists. Do you think people with powerful and heartfelt pro-Christian feelings should be allowed to post on ST, but people with powerful and heartfelt anti-Christian feelings should not?
There is also the fact that the closer to home a subject is, the more likely folks are to voice strong opinions about it. I may think Confucius was a wacko and his followers are delusional, but since confucionism has exactly zero impact on my day to day life, I'm hardly going to get all upset when someone posts a favorite confucius quote.
On the other hand, the beliefs and actions of Christians and Muslims do have a huge impact on most of our lives, so how is it surprising that some folks speak up strongly about Christianity and Islam? It would be weird if there weren't strong pro- and anti- sentiments about those two religions.
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WBraun
climber
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JuanDeFuca hits another one out of ball park.
You all been had and trolled again by the master .......
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Ghost- "Hmnnn, if you want a thread that is devoted to only the good things of Christianity..."
You are full of your self-perceived wisdom Ghost.
I simply asked Moose where are all the "Christian/bible/religious threads that he just alluded to in the post he just made on this thread.
I am not complaining about anything STOP PUTTING WORDS INTO OTHER PEOPLES MOUTH!
Ghost- "Hmnnnn. If you want a thread that is devoted to only the good things of Christianity..."
Hmnnnnn! No!
I was just asking John, where are all these so called Christian threads, what are their titles, the ones "that there have been alot of lately."
Evendently John Moosie says there are alot of them....great. I would like to read one or two, see what I have been missing.
Everyone is complaining about all the Bible and Christian threads that have been taking up room here on S/T, I would like to read one. One that comes from climbers/Mtn. type people that I can identify with on several levels, including climbing.
Who's complaining? Not me!
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Brian
climber
California
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"for love is as strong as death."
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Moosie- "Few people in this country have had Hindus knocking on their doors trying to save them."
I have lived in this country for 50 years and never had a Christian knock on my door and try to "save me", or talk to me or anything else. In the last 20+ years I haven't even had a Christian even give me or offer me anything. It seems pretty damn dead out there actually. Except for all the Atheist complaining about crosses on hills, or the 10 Commandments in courtrooms etc.
Where are all these Christian Fundy's everyone is talking about?
Not one person has walked up to me in 20+ years.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Hee hee. The JW's only knock on my door once. They don't seem to get that being saved is a free gift, and that you don't have to earn your place among the [alleged] 144,000 by knocking on doors. Although I admire their pluck. I always go for that one in Ephesians [2? 8-9? can't remember, bible very dusty] that says you're saved through grace by faith and not by works.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I always go for that one in Ephesians [2? 8-9? can't remember, bible very dusty] that says you're saved through grace by faith and not by works. Lazy bugger. :-)
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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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If i have to keep seeing this at the top of the F**King thread list I am going to kill someone.
Take it here, they give a shit:
http://www.christianforums.com/f370/
I found this one particularly interesting and relevant for myself:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7427963/
I think they will even take LEB along with this thread, they accept everyone over there (as long as you let them brainwash you, too).
edit: Prone to hyperbole.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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John Moosie- "Don't make this so hard."
OK! I misunderstood your "Lately..." You meant with-in the last 3-6 months. I thought you meant currently.
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Gobee
climber
Upward Bound
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Colossians 1:19-20, For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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hoipolloi- "take it over here..."
They are not climbers/Mtn/outdoor type people that we can relate to on different levels...communicate with.
So you prefer censorship evidently. NOT allowed were I the almighty HOIPOLLI roams and lurks.
Are you going to be offended and so embittered by three (3) words? Three words on the front page..."Favorite Bible Passages?"
How self centered can a person be?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Ya know, the first quote in this thread is pretty relevant. Jesus didn't say you HAVE to knock, or seek. He gave you the choice: You can walk past the door, same as you can bypass this thread by knott clicking on it.
Or you can knock. His promise comes to those who choose to seek.
Wow, good thing Christians can live by grace and not by the law! Some pretty nasty stuff back there in the OT!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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fattrad- "Ezekiel"
You remind me of Samuel L. Jackson's character "Jules"(the hit-man)in Pulp Fiction. "I'm sorry, did I break your concentration?" After he shoots him. LOL!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I thought of using that one Fatty,
but,
"When i became a man, i gave up childish things," 1st corinthians thirteen.
-Me? give up childish things? yeah right.
But I really don't get sh#t like this;
""You shall fear only the Lord your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name!" Deuteronomy 6:13.
Why would anyone ever worship the only thing they fear? Does that make any sense, in any way?
Why would anyone have any respect at all, for a bully?
I'm not dissing "God", I'm suggesting that that passage was not thought out, very well, if at all.
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Avoiding a fight is a mark of honor; only fools insist on quarreling.
Proverbs 20:1
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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My favorite is also the most ignored. Go figure.
1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jaybro, if you check out the ancient Hebrew from which the word is translated, "fear" is more like "love and revere".
Tobia is right, isn't there something about pearls and swine? ;)
And as for the KJV above, gads Gary, way to make us look preachy and old-fashioned. How about a New International Version instead? Does anyone reading this even know what "alms" are? Sheesh. [Good verses, though, if you can figure out what the hail they mean]
As for the I Cor 13 about giving up childish things, um yeah. My ex-wife used to preach that one to me all the time. Oh well, it's a journey, not a destination, right? I'll be made perfect one day later.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jaybro- "You shall fear only the Lord your God..."
Jay- "Why would they worship the only thing they fear?"
Jay- "Why would anyone have any respect at all, for a bully?"
The word means to revere/respect/adore/fear and admire. It is translated as such from Hebrew.
I can testify to this statement from the bible "To know Him, is to love Him."
This isn't just rote memorising of passages without experience and a relationship over decades to relate to.
On the other hand, many people love their fathers and also fear the consequences of disobeying them. Generally that obedience is called for because it protects, or is best for you. Playing in the street. Or by a river when you can't swim etc.
Likewise with our heavenly Father, He knows what's best for us. Although we would sometimes rather risk certain actions. Like our earthly fathers, we learn there are consequences which, as we grow, we learn to obey.
Jesus quoted this verse one of the three times that Satan tempted Him...
"You shall fear only the Lord your God, and worship only Him..." Deut. 6:13.
God is no bully! He is very wise, patient, and loving.
EDIT: I have a special experience/reason to choose this verse as my favorite!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Thanks you guys, it makes a lot more sense the way you say it. So why leave that translational typo in/ and why quote it that way?
I really wasn't saying that god was a bully, just saying someone needs an editor because as that line was presented, that IS what it's saying!
"An that ain't right!"
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Terry
climber
Spokane
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Resting the temptation to chime in is apparently futile... sigh.
Some people have stated (in this thread and many others) that this is a climbing forum so we should all stick to climbing related threads. Well, the truth is, this is not a climbing forum it is a climbers forum (with a few notable exceptions ie. LEB) and the topics represent what is going on in our lives. I'm sure many resent this, even Chris Mac has vented but his TR & Beta tab is evidence that he has recognized how this site has evolved. But this very diversity is what makes the Taco such a great site. In one thread you get to rub elbows with Legends of the Sport and in the next you're introduced to its greatest Dumbass. As others have said, its a virtual campfire, and everyone gets to sit in.
As for those who reacted violently to the thread I suspect they are threatened by it. I know that I avoid God when I feel guilty.
And lastly, Ghost stated it very well when he said...
The religious folks say "The Holy Bible is the Word of God" They say it over and over and over. But when someone asks the perfectly logical question "Well, what about where the bible says we should [insert bizarre verse about slavery, rape, killing], the answer is "Oh, well, that part doesn't count any more." Which leads to "Well, is it the word of god, or isn't it?" To which no one has a satisfactory answer....with religion it's always the same non-answers when real questions are asked. Totally frustrating.
I agree and I think this occurs for a few reasons.
#1 - People don't try and give real answers because its the Taco and in all my years here I've yet to see someone convinced and change their mind from a thread. It may occur but if it has it has happened anonymously. These arguments just turn into flame wars that lead no where. Ed Hartouni, may be an exception - he rarely has a knee jerk reaction. In other words arguing here really is a waste of time and I'd rather spend my time on other things (and there is the Pearls and Pigs thing)
#2 - many professing Christians don't know the answers to these questions.
#3 - Giving a cogent answer to difficult questions is difficult. But that doesn't mean there isn't an answer. Understanding some passages takes long, honest study and this venue doesn't lend itself to such a discussion
That's my take in brief - fwiw.
Oh, one of my favorite passages -
Romans 13:9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jaybro- "So why leave that translational typo in, and quote it that way?"
Well, another aspect/angle is to NOT FEAR anything else.
We could paint alot of scenarios in regards to that.
To not fear death, not fear the enemy of our souls/Satan, or not fear what tomorrow may bring...to worry.
"Fear not for I am with you always sayith the Lord."
So, we understand what you are saying, and I had the same questions as a young Christian.
EDIT: In other words, you should not serve anyone else out of fear.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jaybro,
Many biblical scholars - Believers and Non-Believers alike - study ancient Hebrew [the language in which the Old Testament was written] so we can better try to understand what the writers really meant to say. And even regular guys like me and TripL7 have a bit of an idea of what the word really means, and what its root comes from.
I have a study bible that has lots of cool footnotes about language and history that helps you better understand the stuff. Although admittedly some of it is quite baffling.
A lot of people studying to become pastors study ancient Greek [the language the New Testament was written in] to better understand the words and the true meanings. Sometimes in bible studies, we'd all read from different translations, and when you heard it said different ways, you got it better.
Now Gary above seems to like the King James Version, which goes back to the 1600's about the time the Bavarian Purity Act came into being, which is a far more important historical date in my opinion. Reading the King James Version is like reading Shakespeare - it's hard to understand. [What the hell is an alm?]
There are many more recent translations, such as the New International Version that I really like. Not only are these versions in modern easier-to-understand English, but they are also a hella not more accurate in terms of the translation. And if they used a word like "fear" you know there would be a detailed footnote explaining precisely why and what the word really means.
What makes the NIV more accurate than the KJV, besides the better translation, is that far more "scripture remnants" have been found since the KJV was published. Biblical scholars find bits and pieces of scriptures going way back, in church basements and tombs and caves and stuff, and as many of these bits have been found since the 1600's as were known prior to that, and some are much older than what had been known previously. So modern translations have more original texts to go back to.
The most famous remnants are the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were found I think in around 1947. I could look it up, but well, Anders knows why. These scriptural remnants include a very early copy of the book of Isaiah among other things, that predated everything used to write the King James translation. Older remnants are reckoned to me closer to what the original text might have read, since fewer people would have copied it. What is very interesting about the Dead Sea Scrolls is that even though they were so ancient, they were almost word for word perfect compared to later remnants, which is suggestive that translations and copies of this book had been handed down pretty accurately.
So as Paul writes in I Cor 13, right now we see dimly, as though looking through a bad mirror. But one day we'll see it all, and know it all. [The drawback being, you gotta die first] But for us Believers, that's supposed to be a good thing.
Or so I'm told. ;)
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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A ND seeing the multitudes, he went up into the mountain :
** and when he had sat down, his disciples came unto him :
2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying,
3 TI Blessed are the poor in spirit : for theirs is the kingdom
of heaven.
4 If Blessed are they that mourn : for they shall be comforted.
5 If Blessed are the meek : for they shall inherit the earth.
6 If Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteous-
ness : for they shall be filled.
7 If Blessed are the merciful : for they shall obtain mercy.
8 TJ Blessed are the pure in heart : for they shall see God.
9 If Blessed are the peacemakers : for they shall be called
sons of God.
10 f Blessed are they that have been persecuted for righteous-
ness' sake : for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
1 1 Blessed are ye when men shall reproach you, and persecute
you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad : for great is your reward
in heaven : for so persecuted they the prophets which were
before you.
13 If Ye are the salt of the earth : but if the salt have lost
its savour, wherewith shall it be salted ? it is thenceforth good
for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot
be hid.
15 Neither do men light a lamp, and put it under the bushel,
but on the stand ; and it shineth unto all that are in the house.
1 6 Even so let your light shine before men, that they may
see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
1 7 U Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets
I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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And as for the KJV above, gads Gary, way to make us look preachy and old-fashioned. How about a New International Version instead? Does anyone reading this even know what "alms" are? Sheesh. [Good verses, though, if you can figure out what the hail they mean]
It means your faith is between you and your god. Only a jerk shows off and plays holier-than-thou to the crowd.
Or in the words of Buddha:
"Seek your own salvation with diligence."
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Randisi- "Please he begged, don't do such a wicked thing..."
I found a companion scripture to go along with your favorite one concerning Sodom and Gomorrah. It refers to anyone that has heard about Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for them...like the vast majority of the people in the USA, with a church on every corner and Bibles everywhere...
"And whoever will not receive you nor here you, when you depart from there shake off the dust from under your feet as a testimony to them. Assuredly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of Judgement then for that city." Mark 6:11.
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50
climber
Stumptown
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My favorite from Old King George: "I've been in the Bible every day since I've been the president."—Washington, D.C., Nov. 12, 2008.
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Rob_James
Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt. Cook Village, New Zealand
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I praise:
"Jesus giveth. And Jesus taketh. Thy name of Jesus is Indian giver." - Mark 20:43?
And
"Have a hap hap happy birthday." - Geronimo 3:12 (or close there to.)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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It is hard to pick just one really. I mean the whole book is incredible and inspiring, so it is hard to pick only one or a favorite!
But here is a great one. Near the end of The Good Book we read . . .
Rev.21
[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
[2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
[5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
[6] And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
[7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
As bad as it can get here on planet Earth, I have the above promise to keep me going and comfort me. No matter how bad it gets, I believe and I have his promises close to my heart. We have to take care of the Earth, since it is our only home and we are the Earth's stewards. He expects us to do the right thing and to care for his creation.
We are not doing a good job now though.
I look forward to the 1000 years of peace (the millenium) where war is no more and we can finally be the stewards we are supposed to be, with GOD in our midst walking among us, living with us, and showing us the proper way. It will be nice seeing Earth finally cleaned up and cared for properly and using only clean renewable energy resources. The military-industrial-spy complex will be no more. Corporatism will be no more. Corrupt goverments will be no more. The oil cartels will be no more. Earth will be free, and Earth will be one. I would imagine there will be no access issues. You can climb, explore, adventure where ever you like, just leave no trace. Perfection.
You know, I love the physical Earth and Universe that GOD created over time. I don't see how he could do better, but he will, and he will do it again.
A new Universe of first ascent possibilities and all the time in the World to do them. Awesome.
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Chinchen
climber
Anacortes, wa
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F*#k this.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Klimmer!
Yeah!!
Great post, that's what I like to meditate on, the 1,000/millennium years. Gonna be Triple Sweet! We will have to do a bunch of new routes together. Blows my mind!
Later Dude!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"Blessed are ye when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." Matthew 5:11 (KJV)
Go ahead guys, have a field day with this promise!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there, say, all... right now:
1st thessalonians 5:21
"prove all things, and hold fast that which is good"
good guidance and prudance... seem to keep you on a proper trail, and god knows we need that...
:)
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Proverbs 3:5-6, Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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777,
And to all my brothers and sisters in the Lord on ST I look forward to that. There will be more who join us for sure. They will come around.
Especially when it starts hitting the fan. Where else are they going to turn to but to GOD for help? We can point the way and move them along when they ask.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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The Christian's Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same; but the medical practice changes...The world has corrected the Bible. The church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession- and take the credit of the correction. During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. the Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumb-screws, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.
Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry.....There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain. -- Mark Twain
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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DMT,
You are right it is.
Lucifer and his fallen Angels (33% of the heavenly hosts) do conspire to mess things up. But we have been given their evil battle plans and we know what they intend to do. They are full tilt trying to do just that. Look around the world and see.
We also know how it all will end. In GOD's favor. I'm sticking with GOD.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Old Testament -- Under the law was death, and a foreshadow of Good things to come. The telling of Christ coming to the Earth to be with us.
New Testament -- No longer under the law, but under the saving grace and blood of Jesus. Now we are free to serve God as he wants us to. The Good things have come. Jesus came and showed us his life as an example. Now we just have to live it. And he will come again.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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try this experiment at home, kids. replace the deity or religious figure of your choice with a small troll doll for one year. when things go bad, pray to it, when things go good, thank it. make up stories of the troll doll being here just to help *you* with the pain of being human in an absurd and somewhat indifferent world. love the troll doll. preach of the wonders of the troll doll to others, and snub the figures they've chosen to focus their prayers on...tell yourself how it's ok to be bad as long as you ask the troll doll for forgiveness when you feel guilt...tell yourself over and over that the suffering all around you is part of the troll's plan that you can't possibly understand, but know that there is one and as long as you trust the troll you will be rewarded posthumously....
try this for a year and tell me if you feel anything holy ;-)
the more industrious might consider starting a holy war of some sort to push the troll on others - if the troll tells you, then who are we to judge, right ?
i think my biggest beef with religion is that i feel it's all based on deception, and i hate watching nice people be deceived. especially when they are looking for comfort and hope, instead we get divisions and stubborn refusal to think or act, and a world almost completely opposite of what the major religious figures are even talking about (what's jesus's take on the eternal war, you hypocritical motherf*#kers ?? i call out any christian that is for the war - you are a f*#king hypocrite and a coward...)
i think my favorite quote is in the old testament though - the stuff about owning the children of your slaves in perpetuity...that's a god you can get behind, i tell ya...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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from Matthew "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
and Leviticus "You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your kinsfolk. Love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD."
but similarly:
"Do not to your neighbor what you would take ill from him." – Pittacus
"One who, while himself seeking happiness, oppresses with violence other beings who also desire happiness, will not attain happiness hereafter." - Dhammapada
"Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." - Baha'u'llah
"Beware lest ye harm any soul, or make any heart to sorrow; lest ye wound any man with your words, be he known to you or a stranger, be he friend or foe." - Ábdu'l-Bahá
"Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." - Confucius
"One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Other behavior is due to selfish desires.” - Brihaspati, Mahabharata
"Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you." - Muhammad
"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.” - Talmud
"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful.” - Tao Teh Ching
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Klimmer, the promise of a Brand New World, after we've trashed this one (often in the name of Christ) gives a-holes an escape hatch in their minds for doing nasty things.
"Wow, I can screw all these people, the Earth, and everything around me, repent, and I get a whole new enchalada."
F that.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Pride cometh before the whipper...
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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"do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"
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skychild
Trad climber
Birmingham, Alabama
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I don't need a bible... I bought toilet paper last week.:)
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Not a bible scholar but remember reading a chapter where the man was pissed that his people were cutting down his forest and laying waste to his land.....sounds familiar....rj
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sermon on the Mount
Gospels on Forgiveness, tolerance and non-judgement.
As far as I'm concerned, the old testament would be best ignored completely for all the reasons mentioned in other threads...to much killing, rape, and slavery
Peace
Karl
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Essene Gospel of Peace Book 1
http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/peace1.html
And Jesus answered: "Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws from God in writing, but through the living word. The law is living word of living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your ears, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in the sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights. They all speak to you that you may understand the tongue and the will of the living God. But you shut your eyes that you may not see, and you shut your ears that you may not hear. I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in His works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are the work of the hands of men?"
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Ed,
Is it not interesting that Lucifer knows the scripture really well and miss-uses it in hopes to gain an advantage?
Lucifer was in the Garden quoting the word to fool Eve. It worked. He fooled her and the rest is history.
Lucifer was in the wilderness, quoting the word to attempt to bring down Jesus the Christ. It didn't work. Jesus overcame Lucifer and the rest is history.
There is some truth in all Holy Books of all the Faiths. No better way to fool the masses than to mix in truth with untruth. Lucifer has known the word of GOD since his beginning. He uses that knowledge in deceiving and cunning ways. Lucifer is the Prince of disinformation. He is the author of lies.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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What makes you think you misuse it any better than "lucifer"?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Klimmer, the promise of a Brand New World, after we've trashed this one (often in the name of Christ) gives a-holes an escape hatch in their minds for doing nasty things.
"Wow, I can screw all these people, the Earth, and everything around me, repent, and I get a whole new enchalada."
F that.
K-man,
You are right there are some "believers" who think that way. They are deluding themselves. GOD is not fooled. We are to be stewards of the Earth, not rapists. There is plenty in the Good Book that draws this truth out. It is part of the Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
We are supported by Mother Earth. Mother Earth is our life support. To harm the Earth is to harm all mankind. The book of Revelations has something to say about those who harm the Earth and judgement will be upon them. I'll look it up later and post.
I look at John Muir as a modern era Wilderness Prophet for GOD. John knew the bible really well (apparently he had it memorized! I can't imagine. Some days I forget my own name) and quoted it constantly in his writings. He cared for the Earth and could see what we were doing. We need to heed his words today.
We have an obligation, a responsibility to care for the Earth and those who live on it. That is what stewardship is all about.
Can I get an Amen!!??
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Chief
climber
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Interesting.
Although this is a climbing site, lots of non climbing subjects get discussed, including politics, environmentalism and other rigid belief systems. There is after all, more to life than climbing. If we're going to suggest the subject in this thread is not welcome, the same applies to the rest of our non climbing blather and we'll need to clean up big time.
I'm just as OK with the Christians floating their clouds of must believe as I am with people ranting about whether the Republicans or Democrats provide better government for the US, neither have much to do with climbing.
There is a widely held view that the Bible when viewed in it's entirety easily portrays God as pathologically predisposed to jealousy, vengeance, murder, homophobia, religious intolerance, racism, gender bias and child abuse. I support this view and suggest we don't take a disparate collection of musings of long dead, wandering Semites too seriously.
Having said all that, I do like the message of tolerance and forgiveness espoused in The Sermon on the Mount.
PB
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Double D
climber
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Climbing and the Bible not relevant?
Test all things; hold fast that which is good. (1Th 5:21)
This should be a mantra for all climbers! Any accomplished big-wall climber knows the merits of this.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. (Ro 1:20)
Climbers are exposed in an exquisite way to God’s creation.
Praise the LORD. Praise the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. (Ps 148:1)
For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. (Isa 55:12)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Klimmer, please re-read the passages that I have quoted and try to apply them... if everyone did the world would be a much better place.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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My favorite passage from the Holy Book has direct application to climbing. It is:
"And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire, a fifth share is assigned to God."
(from the Holy Qur'an Surah 8, 41)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Very nice Dave!
Great scripture and great image. Amazingly good.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Ed,
I read those passages/quotes you posted from other Holy books. I have no problem with any of them. Like I said, there is truth in all Holy books of many different faiths. And you will find a link, a comparison, a connection of truth through them all as though they attempt to say the same thing at times. This is very true.
But are these books all completely true? They contradict each other in many different significant ways the more one studies and compares them.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Ghost,
I have not read the "creationist" thread because it appeared to be an attempt to goad Christians into an argument. I don't want an argument. I want to share with other believers (I use the uncapitalized version of "believers" intentionally here, to include all religions), or with those who truly want to know about Jesus Christ, rather than argue about Christians.
As such, that thread and this thread differ in title, and should differ in content. I can't control the behavior of the anti-Christians or the anti-religious. This thread asked for favorite verses, not for arguments. I hope the two threads will settle into that pattern. Those who want to argue religion can go to Norton's thread and igonore this one. Those who want to share verses and inspiration (thanks particularly for yours, DD!) can stay here and ignore Norton's thread, as I have.
Of course, I'm not naive enough to think that will happen. The early history of this thread demonstrates that the anti-Christians and anti-religionists can't help themselves. Something compels them to tell us how stupid they think we are. Even though we know their feelings, I am sure they will continue to tell them to us.
Incidentally, I agree, Ed, that the world would be a better place if people did good. What those verses show is that the concept of what is good isn't nearly as subjective as many would have us believe. I could add much more, but that's better left for a different topic.
John
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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JEleazarian wrote-
Something compels them to tell us how stupid they think we are.
So what is that "something"? It's concern as informed citizens of a modern democracy who care about the direction the world is going in.
It's ol'time religions which are an obstacle in the path to higher education, both science education and general life education. It's adherence to ancient theist doctrines that stand in the way to better practices in the practice of living.
Believe you me, if this weren't a democracy (where votes count) you could believe the moon were made out of blue cheese and I couldn't care less.
You're not without blame either. Moderates like you run interference for the real religious crazies out there.
When religious institutions stick to what they do best and stop trying to tell the rest of us how the world works and/or how life works (the baliwick of the sciences) then there won't be a conflict any longer.
P.S. Where's Weschrist when you need him?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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from my way of thinking, that bit of wisdom, repeated over and over by many different and divergent ways of thinking and behaving, are telling us a "truth" more profound than any of the other stuff...
treat others the same way you would want to be treated
that is a transcendentally wise statement which, apparently, needs no further justification than its obvious correctness.
probably more ancient than any religion... and it can be expanded beyond reference to just humans.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Thanks for referring to me as a "moderate," HFCS. Too many with your view of life see any who disagree with them as either misguided radicals (if they're to their left) or fascists (if they're to their right).
John
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habitat
climber
grass pass
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Well, I'm an atheist so it goes without saying I don't believe in God. But I have a lot of respect for those that do. How could I not, when I have some very good friends who are devout Christians? And even though they know well and true who I am, and where I stand, they have often sent verses my way to comfort me in my darkest hours.....and indeed, they have brought me round to a brighter place, and given me hope where there was none.
I don't own a bible, but I sure enjoy reading it whenever I stay in a hotel. I look forward to it, knowing it is there in the little drawer by the bedside. I especially like the way those particular bibles are arranged, so that those of us who are not familiar with it, can find easily passages that might apply to our current situation.....and there's always some sort of 'situation' going on.....life being what it is, that is, not perfect.
So, I don't have anything of substance to contribute here...but wouldn't mind reading a few passages, as they become available here, as I always find it comforting. And interesting, thinking about how others think.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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JEleazarian - yeah... you got it all figured out..
wow...
and here I was trying to hide behind the fact that this is a climbing forum... and not a "This I Believe" forum...
gooood call!!!
habitat - ok.. but have you ever considered.. "There is no god?"
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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God may not be fooled, but if he's willing to let them keep doing it that way, He *is* irresponsible. Perhaps he should change the Word, install a 3-strikes rule or something...
Another danger is the belief that God is going to take care of all things wrong in the end. I was sitting with my brother and a friend, talking about the problems in the world, and one of them said "I'm not worried about it, because Jesus is going to come back and take care of business."
Scary. Just ignore the problem because the calvary's coming... I'm not worried about God being fooled, I'm worried about God's follower's being fooled.
Stzzo,
I hear you. Call them on it. We aren't supposed to wait to do good. We are to do it now. We are supposed to be doing all the things we can do right now. Caring for the homeless, the sick, those without. We need to fight for social issues and justice, and do right by the Earth's environment. Remember, in Jesus's day, the Sadducees and Pharasees who were the most Holy (at least outwardly), but Jesus called them on it and called them a generation of Vipers (ouch). They were hypocrites.
However, everyone is to blame. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of GOD, as the Good Book says. With a 3 strikes rule none of us would be here. We screw-up all the time and constantly.
The Good Book says GOD is patient and long-suffering. Good thing or we would all be gonners.
Bottom-line. We are supposed to be busy taking care of bussiness, not sitting idly on our hands waiting for the Calvary to arrive. In fact, he gave us a clear directive to be doing so. And he better find us hard at work doing his will, or there is hell to pay -- literally.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"It worked!"
Given that god works in mysterious ways, how far did you fall?
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Thank you Jesus for turning water into wine. John 2: 1-11
and
Hail Mary full of Grace, thank you for finding that parking place.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Wow, for all the spew about politics, science, and non-climbing related topics that pass for content on this site, there's a lot of hatred for a single post asking for positive comments about a religious work of literature. Would all this venom be directed at a post that asks for favorite quotes from the Upanishads? I think not.
And for the record, just as it's not OK to hate people for being gay, of color, etc., it's similarly not OK to do so simply because they cling to a particular religion. Very poor form people.
Here's a couple much better ones for you Juan that all you right wingers tend to overlook:
1 John 4:8: "He that loveth not knoweth no God; for God is love."
1 John 4:20: "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar; for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Woe to you who add house to house and join field to field till no space is left... Isaiah 5:8
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Wow. I never read that passage before. If I did it didn't sink in.
There you go. A bible verse against over development and urban sprawl.
Cool.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Fat Dad wrote-
there's a lot of hatred for a single post asking for positive comments...just as it's not OK to hate people for being gay, of color, etc., it's similarly not OK to do so simply because they cling to a particular religion. Very poor form people.
Reframe it.
Criticism of beliefs- in the interest of better practices in the practice of living-- doesn't translate to hate or hating people.
Hadrian- Brick by brick.
Ghandi- Be the change you seek in the world.
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habitat
climber
grass pass
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graniteclimber -
That is awesome! When what we usually think of, in regards to the bible, is 'go forth and multiply'.
Over-population is a huge concern of mine. It's interesting to hear that this has been addressed in the bible, and probably long ago (?)
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Criticism of beliefs- in the interest of better practices in the practice of living-- doesn't translate to hate or hating people.
Agreed. You're totally right. Unfortunately, alot of the posts--especially the earlier ones--don't really qualify as an example of that.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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No Jews, Muslims, etc.., on this site asking about favorite passages from other religious books? the only people on this site that discuss religious views are atheists and Christians. Hmmm.
I'd really like to see a Christian and a Jew arguing about Jesus on this site. It would be a bit more entertaining than just seeing the atheists and Christians going at it. More common ground would make for a much more interesting argument.
I have no favorite passages as they are all about as as meaningful to me as the works of Shakespeare and are sometimes as cryptic too.
Dave
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Robbie
Trad climber
Cheyenne, WY
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vanitas vanitatum dixit Ecclesiastes vanitas vanitatum omnia vanitas.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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and i gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know
madness and folly: i perceived that this is also
vexation of spirit.
ecclesiastes.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Woe to You Oh Earth and Sea
for the Devil sends the beast with wrath
because he knows the time is short
Let him who have understanding
reckon the number of the beast
for it is a human number
its number is six hundred and sixty six...
(though it might really be 616 - check the wiki for an interesting sidebar discussion on the actual number of said beast...)
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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all you good christians killed your non-virgin wives, right ?
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jstan
climber
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So the US's total abstinence policy of the last few years came right out of the bible.
Did not get it entirely correct however.
More modification of the holy scripture- I guess.
Were those who corrupted god's word not made to suffer greatly?
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Disciple of God
Trad climber
El Sereno, Ca
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My favorite verse that comes to me through the power of the Holy Spirit, when I need it the most is from.
John 14:1-3 "Let not your heart me troubled; you belive in God, belive also in Me. In my Fathers house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and recieive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
That verse means alot to me, the return of Christ. And man it is going to happen! The bible is the absolute truth! The word of God does not lie!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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So, disciple, you're new around here, aren't you? Done any good climbs lately?
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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ya know, if you paraphrase the last supper, jesus basically says 'eat me'...
sort of a cannibalistic telepathic zombie of salvation...
how many people have died because of the bible ?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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How many people have died because of people?
Lots of people have died as a result of U.S. policies since the country's founding. However, I don't see everyone on this site renouncing their citizenship. People, human motives are often far too complex than to just blame the Bible. Sure, it may be a true observation, but it's also a cop out. How many people have died because of the Koran, or because of communism (Mao's policies killed what, some 30 million), or failed environmental practices? You can go on endlessly.
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Disciple of God
Trad climber
El Sereno, Ca
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Went to Joshua Tree and rope soloed and practiced aid on starwars rock. Due to rain and family duties, I have not climbed much. Come march I will be heading to the Valley.
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arsenalcrater
Trad climber
Vista, CA
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You know, the Bible is quite a fine book of fiction. My friends and I enjoy laughing at the lies and plagerisms displayed as "holy f*#king scripture". Give me a f*#king break! The only quote needing to be quoted is, "Death is Certain, Life it Not!"
--> Dark Angel - Darkness Decends
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BES1\\\'st
climber
Orange, CA.
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Something to do with a mustard seed and tree. It's invalid and
kinda funny as presented at some places.
I'll post it up if I can find it. I think it's from the new testament.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:42am PT
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Matthew 17:20, He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”
Proverbs 10:20, The tongue of the righteous is choice silver;
the heart of the wicked is of little worth.
My Help and My Deliverer
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.
Psalm 40, I waited patiently for the Lord;
he inclined to me and heard my cry.
2 He drew me up from the pit of destruction,
out of the miry bog,
and set my feet upon a rock,
making my steps secure.
3 He put a new song in my mouth,
a song of praise to our God.
Many will see and fear,
and put their trust in the Lord.
4 Blessed is the man who makes
the Lord his trust,
who does not turn to the proud,
to those who go astray after a lie!
5 You have multiplied, O Lord my God,
your wondrous deeds and your thoughts toward us;
none can compare with you!
I will proclaim and tell of them,
yet they are more than can be told.
6 In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted,
but you have given me an open ear.
Burnt offering and sin offering
you have not required.
7 Then I said, “Behold, I have come;
in the scroll of the book it is written of me:
8 I delight to do your will, O my God;
your law is within my heart.”
9 I have told the glad news of deliverance
in the great congregation;
behold, I have not restrained my lips,
as you know, O Lord.
10 I have not hidden your deliverance within my heart;
I have spoken of your faithfulness and your salvation;
I have not concealed your steadfast love and your faithfulness
from the great congregation.
11 As for you, O Lord, you will not restrain
your mercy from me;
your steadfast love and your faithfulness will
ever preserve me!
12 For evils have encompassed me
beyond number;
my iniquities have overtaken me,
and I cannot see;
they are more than the hairs of my head;
my heart fails me.
13 Be pleased, O Lord, to deliver me!
O Lord, make haste to help me!
14 Let those be put to shame and disappointed altogether
who seek to snatch away my life;
let those be turned back and brought to dishonor
who delight in my hurt!
15 Let those be appalled because of their shame
who say to me, “Aha, Aha!”
16 But may all who seek you
rejoice and be glad in you;
may those who love your salvation
say continually, “Great is the Lord!”
17 As for me, I am poor and needy,
but the Lord takes thought for me.
You are my help and my deliverer;
do not delay, O my God!
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BES1\\\'st
climber
Orange, CA.
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Feb 10, 2010 - 11:13am PT
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Gobee,
I see more questionable scriptures.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 11:21am PT
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My favoirte quote by Jesus is NOT FROM THE BIBLE, but is about the Bible and is translated directly from an ancient scroll in Aramaic Hebrew.
Jesus said:
"Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws from God in writing, but through the living word. The law is living word of living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your ears, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in the sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights. They all speak to you that you may understand the tongue and the will of the living God. But you shut your eyes that you may not see, and you shut your ears that you may not hear. I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in His works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are the work of the hands of men?”
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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What is the source of your ancient Aramaic scroll, Studly? I'd never heard this before.
John
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
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This scroll was translated from the archives of the Vatican back in the 1920's. There is another later scroll copy of this in the Library of the Hapsburgs as well. It details the Essenes and who they were. Remember, this was done long before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the current output of learning of the Essenes being the early Christians. The Dead Sea Scrolls were not from the Essenes but were taken to the Essenes to be hidden before the Jewish Temple was razed by the Romans. This link allow you to read the direct translations. Very powerful stuff, and unfortunately not in line with most of the current Christian beliefs.
http://www.thenazareneway.com/index_essene_gospels_of_peace.htm
Peace be upon you my friends!
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
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"Poetic, but what a load of wishful thinking. Life just isn't that easy. Even if you believe in the power of prayer."
pretty much sums up obama's campaign and first year in office
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
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Thanks, Studly.
I was aware generally of Essene writings, but not this specific passage. I taught a brief adult Sunday School class on the sects prevelant at the time of Christ (and specifically the Herodians, the Pharisees, Saduccees, Essenes and Zealots) in 2008, and used several primary sources (and a lot of Josephus) in the course. I wish I knew of this cite sooner.
I would add, though, that the early church was also familiar with these writings and rejected them from the canon of scripture for non-authenticity. Those who see scripture as a creation of the church will, or course, give a different and more cynical reason.
I personally find this passage sufficiently inconsistent with everything else written about Jesus, and with Essene reverence for scripture (consider, e.g. their preservation efforts in the Dead Sea Scrolls) to believe the canon, and not this.
In any case, thanks again for the reference, and for a non-judgmental reply to my question.
John
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Feb 10, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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Have you ever considered that if the dipole moment of water is not what it is no life could exist.
Or that if the a large asteroid did not hit the earth 65 million years ago we still would be living with dinosaurs.
Juan
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jstan
climber
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Feb 10, 2010 - 01:49pm PT
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"Or that if the a large asteroid did not hit the earth 65 million years ago we still would be living with dinosaurs."
Got news for you. The dinosaurs are still here.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
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I just need to say again that THIS IS BIBLE STUDY. Fine. Have at it. Enjoy. But PLEASE take this somewhere outside of a climbing forum!! This thread is bumping too many other truly worthy climbing threads into oblivion. I don't have the luxury of time to be on here all day. When I do I find really good climbing stuff has been bumped from the front page because of this thread and other political/religious threads like it.
I didn't even know about the Half Dome cable permits issue until I got Chris' ST e-mail newsletter. Why? Cause it keeps getting bumped from the front page by stuff like this.
C'mon guys. Some of us climbers here who have limited time to cruise this site would like to see climbing stuff. If you want to debate the Bible, great...have at it. But please stop doing it here cause it is causing non-Bible study loving climbers to miss out on some great CLIMBING threads.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 10, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
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For awhile it appeared we had agreement to concentrate OT posts to a few threads. Since posts in such threads are off off topic as much as on and no one reads them all - the extended threads work.
As long as people cooperate.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 10, 2010 - 02:05pm PT
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JElezarian, I'm trying to get to know you better.
You're a Christian because (a) you support the Christian narrative (say for its life-affirming inspiring stories, principles and themes), (b) you believe (in a for-real sense) that the historical Jesus was / is God Jesus, (c) you believe all the above, (d) other.
I ask because there is a difference between (a) and (b) and many "Christians" nowadays have loosened up on the literalist interpretation that the historical Jesus was God (is God).
Can one be a Christian today without supporting the traditional theological doctrine that Jesus is God, Jesus was God?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 10, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
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Fluoride- It's the off-season. Geez. I'm interested in the philosophies and beliefs of other climbers. Esp those here at the Taco, which are the cream of the crop.
I'm pretty sure when it's climbing season again, just a month a way or so, things will get back on topic.
EDIT I just checked. Right now, this is the only thread on the first page dealing with religion and theology. That other one-- from Norton-- is way down in the mix. Just sayin.
And it took me just 5 seconds to scan the first page for new on-topic climbing titles. So, ease up lieutenant.
Well, Norton's thread is now back on top.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
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HFCS, to answer your question: No. THE fundamental precept of Christianity is that Jesus is God. If you don't buy that, you aren't a Christian.
That belief has raised some technical issues, such as how do we reconcile God as portrayed in the OT vs. Jesus in the NT. One is lex talionus and the other is a loving hippy. In the early days of Christianity, a group called the Marcionites felt that these two entities are so different that they must be two separate being. The early Catholic Church clarified that at the Counsel of Nicea by creating the Nicene Crede, which is still recited at Mass today. It begins with: "We believe in One God..."
Catholics came up with the notion of the Trinity to explain how God the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit are all one but separate at the same time. Pretty much impossible to wrap your head around in any logical fashion, which is where that leap of faith comes in handy.
John, re the early sects, I recommend The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels, a divinity professor at Princeton for a good read about that topic.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 02:38pm PT
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High Fructose Corn Syrup....for MANY of us, climbing season NEVER ends. It's Joshua Tree season right now. And Woodson. And the Alabama Hills. Yosemite - the Cookie! And Bishop. That's NOW!! Cochise? Lemon? Red Rocks? ALL IN SEASON. And I'd love to hear everyone's stories from those places. But I can't if this thread keeps bumping them off the front page.
Then soon the rest of the Valley, then Tuolumne and the Sierra in the months ahead. Believe it or not, climbing is not a seasonal activity. Many of us live it year round. And those that can't chase it from place to place where it IS in season.
Just because you aren't able to climb right now doesn't mean YOU need to turn this place into a Bible study. There's plenty of great climbing going on right now. Only it's hard to hear about when Bible study is constantly bumping those threads off the main page.
Seriously man, if you want to do Bible study, there's a ton of websites for it. For those of us that want to climb, not so much. So quit bogarting this site for your own purposes. I want to hear climbing stories when I come here. Not debates over Jesus.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
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HFCS,
I believe that Jesus is God ("Before Abraham was, I am.") I agree with Fat Dad -- that statement is foundational to Christianity.
Flouride,
Where else do I get to discuss my favorite verses with other Christian climbers? If there's another website, please point me to it. Also, where else do I get to have a dialogue with other intelligent climbers like HFCS, you, Jingy and many others, with whom I often disagree, but whose contributions I value?
The casual reader would think with all of our OT disagreements that we have nothing in common. In fact, we all (or at least most all) have climbing in common, which for me is a lot.
I guess ultimately, I don't understand why you and others want to post repeatedly that you don't want this thread on ST? That only boosts it to the top of the list. Why not ignore it?
John
Edit:
Thanks, Fat Dad. I have browsed that work, but don't yet own it. Then again, I'm comfortable enough with the canon as is that I'm not sure I'll do any more than read it once.
J.
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gazela
Boulder climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Feb 10, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
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Proverbs 21:9 - "It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 10, 2010 - 06:06pm PT
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Thanks for the replies, guys.
Fluoride called me Syrup! I might quit reading her TRs. No need for name calling.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2010 - 07:00pm PT
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This isn't something that belongs on a climbing website. Religious debate has it's place. But not here. I shudder to think how many really good and worthy CLIMBING threads will get bumped off the front page for this. Flouride, this site is loaded with meaningless threads. Unless you have on at least one of those threads ranted repeatedly about how it was ruining your experience on the Taco, then it would appear that this attack is little more than an attack against a specific group of people whom you despise.
Religious debate has it's place. But not here. The title of this thread is "Favorite Bible Passages". It's no more of a call for debate on religion than "What Song Are You Listening To Right Now" is a call for debate on music.
At a California state university I took a course titled "The Bible as Literature". Interesting class. I guess the contents of what I learned isn't fit for the Taco, though.
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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Feb 10, 2010 - 07:34pm PT
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Jesus told me Palin is a ball cupper, possible teabagger as well.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
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To me, the bible is unreadable
Hi, Dr. F. You might want to take that Bible as Literature class I mentioned. It's amazing how many literary structures are in that book.
Say, on behalf of Fluoride, I want to say that your thread on Republicans has kept more good climbing threads off of the front page of the Taco than any other ten treads put together.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 10, 2010 - 08:11pm PT
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"Zero historical facts talked about in the bible have been found to be valid from research outside the bible."
I beg your pardon???
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Feb 10, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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Six days later Jesus took Peter and the two brothers, James and John, and led them up a high mountain to be alone.
Matthew 17:1
Looks on-topic to me!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 10, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
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Proverbs 12:11, Whoever belittles his neighbor lacks sense,
but a man of understanding remains silent
Mark 4:30-34, And he said, “With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or what parable shall we use for it? 31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when sown on the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth, 32 yet when it is sown it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants and puts out large branches, so that the birds of the air can make nests in its shade.”
33 With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as they were able to hear it. 34 He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 10, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
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I'm a big fan of the book of Proverbs. How many verses are there about the fool and the wise man, often relating to the use of the tongue. Usually it's better just to STFU. If you seek wisdom, look no farther than there. Probably the most underlined book in my Bible. [But go easy on me, eh? Wisdom is a journey, not a destination]
"Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue." Pr 17:28
Oh, here's one for buddy above, who asked about the use of the word "fear".
"The fear of the LORD leads to life: then one rests content, untouched by trouble." Pr 19:23
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Feb 10, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
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sorry JDF am not a fan of that two-thousand year old bedtime story.
i am a fan of how the earth is some 4.2 billion yrs old!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 10:50pm PT
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Zero historical facts talked about in the bible have been found to be valid from research outside the bible
Christianity is a historical religion. If you want to see some of it, go to the Middle East. The Romans kept pretty good censuses (sp?) that confirm many named in the NT.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 11, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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From the Volkswagen bible, written by John Muir How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive; A Manual of Step-By-Step Procedures for the Compleat Idiot
"be kind to your ass, for it bears you"
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 11, 2010 - 01:07am PT
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I don't think that's original with John Muir....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 11, 2010 - 01:21am PT
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Modern day John Muir, the VW Guru, not the John Muir of Mountaineering, conservation, scholarly fame. Classic Books. I wish he did some like that for the VW Westfalia Vanagon. I believe he has passed away sadly. Who could imagine reading a book on fixing your VW late at night in bed and actually being thrilled turning page after page. Loved the pen drawings. Classics.
Here are the words of Christ:
THE EIGHT BEATITUDES OF JESUS
"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
Gospel of St. Matthew 5:3-10
http://www.jesuschristsavior.net/Beatitudes.html
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Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Feb 11, 2010 - 01:25am PT
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Prosperity is not for the envious,
Nor is greatness for men of impure conduct.
-Tirukkural 14:13-
"It's a Hindu text."
I choose to listen to my grandmother who said; "there are many beautiful paths that lead to God's house. Only a naive person will think their own is the only one that exist in this BIG world."
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 11, 2010 - 06:58am PT
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Jesus is the crux, you can choose to go around Him or through Him!
John 10:1, I Am the Good Shepherd
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.
John 14:6, (Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
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Shingle
climber
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Feb 11, 2010 - 09:05am PT
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In defense of Fluoride:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
John 8:7
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gazela
Boulder climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Feb 11, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
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1 Kings 21:21 - "Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel"
You've been warned--better use a pee bottle on big climbs or hold it in!
[Judd Nelson: "Yo, Ahab! Can I borrow my doobage?"]
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 11, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
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Anastasia that's a good one;
Prosperity is not for the envious,
Nor is greatness for men of impure conduct.
-Tirukkural 14:13-
"It's a Hindu text."
"I choose to listen to my grandmother who said; "there are many beautiful paths that lead to God's house. Only a naive person will think their own is the only one that exist in this BIG world." ' "
I love and listen to my grandmother as well, I was lucky they lived next door!
Dingus Milktoast, But to go into God's house you still need Jesus!
OT... Chinese proverbs;
A bad workman blames his tools
A bar of iron continually ground becomes a needle
A bridle for the tongue is a necessary piece of furniture
A fall into a ditch makes you wiser
Proverbs 12:17, Whoever speaks the truth gives honest evidence,
but a false witness utters deceit.
Book Two
Why Are You Cast Down, O My Soul?
To the choirmaster. A Maskil of the Sons of Korah.
42 As a deer pants for flowing streams,
so pants my soul for you, O God.
2 My soul thirsts for God,
for the living God.
When shall I come and appear before God?
3 My tears have been my food
day and night,
while they say to me all the day long,
“Where is your God?”
4 These things I remember,
as I pour out my soul:
how I would go with the throng
and lead them in procession to the house of God
with glad shouts and songs of praise,
a multitude keeping festival.
5 Why are you cast down, O my soul,
and why are you in turmoil within me?
Hope in God; for I shall again praise him,
my salvation 6 and my God.
My soul is cast down within me;
therefore I remember you
from the land of Jordan and of Hermon,
from Mount Mizar.
7 Deep calls to deep
at the roar of your waterfalls;
all your breakers and your waves
have gone over me.
8 By day the Lord commands his steadfast love,
and at night his song is with me,
a prayer to the God of my life.
9 I say to God, my rock:
“Why have you forgotten me?
Why do I go mourning
because of the oppression of the enemy?”
10 As with a deadly wound in my bones,
my adversaries taunt me,
while they say to me all the day long,
“Where is your God?”
11 Why are you cast down, O my soul,
and why are you in turmoil within me?
Hope in God; for I shall again praise him,
my salvation and my God.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 11, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
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Very powerful article and study. Brings tears to my eyes . . .
THE SEVEN WORDS OF JESUS ON THE CROSS
http://www.jesuschristsavior.net/Words.html
Here are his Seven Words, the last seven expressions of Jesus Christ on the Cross recorded in Scripture.
THE FIRST WORD
"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do."
Gospel of Luke 23:34
THE SECOND WORD
"Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
Gospel of Luke 23:43
THE THIRD WORD
"Jesus said to his mother: "Woman, this is your son".
Then he said to the disciple: "This is your mother."
Gospel of John 19:26-27
THE FOURTH WORD
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34
THE FIFTH WORD
"I thirst"
Gospel of John 19:28
THE SIXTH WORD
When Jesus had received the wine, he said, "It is finished";
and he bowed his head and handed over the spirit.
Gospel of John 19:30
THE SEVENTH WORD
Jesus cried out in a loud voice,
"Father, into your hands I commend my spirit":
Gospel of Luke 23:46 |
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 11, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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If Jesus would practise acceptance and forgiveness on the murderer being executed next to him, who are we knott to do the same?
Did you know that Christianity is unique among the world's major religions in that you are saved not by what you do, but rather by what you believe and what has already been done for you. Seems almost too good to be true, eh?
Oh dear, that wasn't a bible verse. I guess I'm off topic. Please forgive me! Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 11, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
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I Am Your Servant Larry Norman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHBV0O_Q90c
I miss Larry. I know he is in a better place. Someday we will all be together again. I hold onto that promise dearly.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 11, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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you are saved not by what you do, but rather by what you believe and what has already been done for you.
Not true.
If you believe for an instant that your father should go to jail including taking all responsibility for a crime you committed ..... then
YOU are OUT OF YOUR MIND!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 12, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
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"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God" Jn 1:12
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 12, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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According to Augustine, the only thing that separates Christianity from all other philosophy, ethics and religion is that "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us."
John
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TMO
Trad climber
Puyallup, WA
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Feb 12, 2010 - 05:33pm PT
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However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?
Buddha
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Feb 12, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
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From a CIM
"What could you not accept, if you but knew that everything that happens, all events, past, present and to come, are gently planned by One Whose only purpose is your good? Perhaps you have misunderstood His plan, for He would never offer pain to you. But your defenses did not let you see His loving blessing shine in every step you ever took. While you made plans for death, He led you gently to eternal life."
When my life is spinning out of control this helps.
Juan
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 13, 2010 - 10:50am PT
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Proverbs 13:13, Whoever despises the word brings destruction on himself,
but he who reveres the commandment will be rewarded.
Send Out Your Light and Your Truth
Psalm 43:3-4, Send out your light and your truth;
let them lead me;
let them bring me to your holy hill
and to your dwelling!
4 Then I will go to the altar of God,
to God my exceeding joy,
and I will praise you with the lyre,
O God, my God.
John 8:12, Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
John 14:6, Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 4:23-24, But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 14, 2010 - 03:55pm PT
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Ecclesiastes 9:9, Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your vain life that he has given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun
Ephesians 5:25, Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Ephesians 5:28, In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
Ephesians 5:31, “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
Proverbs 31:29, “Many women have done excellently,
but you surpass them all.”
Proverbs 14:1, The wisest of women builds her house,
but folly with her own hands tears it down
To the choirmaster. A Maskil of the Sons of Korah.
Psalm 44:1, O God, we have heard with our ears,
our fathers have told us,
what deeds you performed in their days,
in the days of old:
Psalm 44:26, Rise up; come to our help!
Redeem us for the sake of your steadfast love!
Jesus Paid It All
Elvina M. Hall, 1865
I hear the Savior say,
“Thy strength indeed is small;
Child of weakness, watch and pray,
Find in Me thine all in all.”
Refrain:
**Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.**
For nothing good have I
Whereby Thy grace to claim;
I’ll wash my garments white
In the blood of Calv’ry’s Lamb.
And now complete in Him,
My robe, His righteousness,
Close sheltered ’neath His side,
I am divinely blest.
Lord, now indeed I find
Thy pow’r, and Thine alone,
Can change the leper’s spots
And melt the heart of stone.
When from my dying bed
My ransomed soul shall rise,
“Jesus died my soul to save,”
Shall rend the vaulted skies.
And when before the throne
I stand in Him complete,
I’ll lay my trophies down,
All down at Jesus’ feet.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 15, 2010 - 12:04pm PT
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Proverbs 15:24, The path of life leads upward for the prudent,
that he may turn away from Sheol beneath.
( Sermon Verses, Feb. 14, 2010 John MacArthur )
"The Atonement: Real or Potential"
Revelation 5:9, And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation
John 1:12-13, But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
1 Corinthians 1:30-31, And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
Ephesians 2:8-9, For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
John 8:24, I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2 Corinthians 5:14-15, For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
[Daniel 7:9-10, “As I looked, thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
10 A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.]
Isaiah 53:10-11, Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
Matthew 1: 21, She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
John 10:11, I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 10:14, I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me
John 10:24-30, So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
John 1:29, The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
1 John 2:1-2, My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Peter 2:1, But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
Deuteronomy 32:5-6, They have dealt corruptly with him;
they are no longer his children because they are blemished;
they are a crooked and twisted generation.
6 Do you thus repay the Lord,
you foolish and senseless people?
Is not he your father, who created you,
who made you and established you?
We are only saved through our faith in Jesus Christ or we will have to pay the penalty for our sins in (Hell) eternity, ask God to forgive you through His Son Jesus, now!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 16, 2010 - 07:18am PT
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Ecclesiastes 11:7-10, Light is sweet, and it is pleasant for the eyes to see the sun.
8 So if a person lives many years, let him rejoice in them all; but let him remember that the days of darkness will be many. All that comes is vanity.
9 Rejoice, O young man, in your youth, and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth. Walk in the ways of your heart and the sight of your eyes. But know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment.
10 Remove vexation from your heart, and put away pain from your body, for youth and the dawn of life are vanity.
Ecclesiastes 12, Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near of which you will say, “I have no pleasure in them”; 2 before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars are darkened and the clouds return after the rain, 3 in the day when the keepers of the house tremble, and the strong men are bent, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those who look through the windows are dimmed, 4 and the doors on the street are shut—when the sound of the grinding is low, and one rises up at the sound of a bird, and all the daughters of song are brought low— 5 they are afraid also of what is high, and terrors are in the way; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along, and desire fails, because man is going to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets— 6 before the silver cord is snapped, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern, 7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. 8 Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher; all is vanity.
9 Besides being wise, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge, weighing and studying and arranging many proverbs with great care. 10 The Preacher sought to find words of delight, and uprightly he wrote words of truth.
11 The words of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings; they are given by one Shepherd. 12 My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.
May the love of Jesus always fill your heart!
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Feb 16, 2010 - 07:22am PT
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gobbee your fortitude and persistence are impressive.
the content is abhorring, to me.
grind on, though, soldier. to whatever end is your means.
if you invested such energy into creative and virgin thoughts,
you truely would change the world.
instead, you're simply echoing ancient errors, and thus my mind and heart hear only white noise, and remain static.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Feb 16, 2010 - 10:12am PT
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"If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, and do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging symbol!" 1 Corinthians 13:1
Thanks Gobee...your "love" through Christ shines!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 17, 2010 - 08:38am PT
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James 1:17, Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Feb 17, 2010 - 11:47am PT
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It has been a very very long time, but I kinda remember something about thou shall not kill in there.
I think there must also be a clause in there when that rule can be ignored but again ... my memory.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Feb 17, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
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"Forgiveness offers everything I want." (W 217) [213]
What could you want forgiveness cannot give? Do you want peace? Forgiveness offers it. Do you want happiness, a quiet mind, a certainty of purpose, and a sense of worth and beauty that transcends the world? Do you want care and safety, and the warmth of sure protection always? Do you want a quietness that cannot be disturbed, a gentleness that never can be hurt, a deep, abiding comfort, and a rest so perfect it can never be upset? (W 217) [213]
All this forgiveness offers you, and more. It sparkles on your eyes as you awake, and gives you joy with which to meet the day. It soothes your forehead while you sleep, and rests upon your eyelids so you see no dreams of fear and evil, malice and attack. And when you wake again, it offers you another day of happiness and peace. All this forgiveness offers you, and more. (W 217) [213]
Forgiveness lets the veil be lifted up that hides the face of Christ from those who look with unforgiving eyes upon the world. It lets you recognize the Son of God, and clears your memory of all dead thoughts so that remembrance of your Father can arise across the threshold of your mind. What would you want forgiveness cannot give? What gifts but these are worthy to be sought? What fancied value, trivial effect or transient promise, never to be kept, can hold more hope than what forgiveness brings? (W 217) [213]
Why would you seek an answer other than the answer that will answer everything? Here is the perfect answer, given to imperfect questions, meaningless requests, half-hearted willingness to hear, and less than halfway diligence and partial trust. Here is the answer! Seek for it no more. You will not find another one instead. (W 217) [213]
God's plan for your salvation cannot change, nor can it fail. Be thankful it remains exactly as He planned it. Changelessly it stands before you like an open door, with warmth and welcome calling from beyond the doorway, bidding you to enter in and make yourself at home, where you belong. (W 217) [213]
Here is the answer! Would you stand outside while all of Heaven waits for you within? Forgive and be forgiven. As you give you will receive. There is no plan but this for the salvation of the Son of God. Let us today rejoice that this is so, for here we have an answer, clear and plain, beyond deceit in its simplicity. All the complexities the world has spun of fragile cobwebs disappear before the power and the majesty of this extremely simple statement of the truth. (W 217) [213]
Here is the answer! Do not turn away in aimless wandering again. Accept salvation now. It is the gift of God, and not the world. The world can give no gifts of any value to a mind that has received what God has given as its own. God wills salvation be received today, and that the intricacies of your dreams no longer hide their nothingness from you. (W 218) [214]
Open your eyes today and look upon a happy world of safety and of peace. Forgiveness is the means by which it comes to take the place of hell. In quietness it rises up to greet your open eyes, and fill your heart with deep tranquility as ancient truths, forever newly-born, arise in your awareness. What you will remember then can never be described. Yet your forgiveness offers it to you. (W 218) [214]
Remembering the gifts forgiveness gives, we undertake our practicing today with hope and faith that this will be the day salvation will be ours. Earnestly and gladly will we seek for it today, aware we hold the key within our hands, accepting Heaven's answer to the hell we made, but where we would remain no more. (W 218) [214]
Morning and evening do we gladly give a quarter of an hour to the search in which the end of hell is guaranteed. Begin in hopefulness, for we have reached the turning point at which the road becomes far easier. And now the way is short that yet we travel. We are close indeed to the appointed ending of the dream. (W 218) [214]
Sink into happiness as you begin these practice periods, for they hold out the sure rewards of questions answered and what your acceptance of the answer brings. Today it will be given you to feel the peace forgiveness offers, and the joy the lifting of the veil holds out to you. (W 218) [214]
Before the light you will receive today the world will fade until it disappears, and you will see another world arise you have no words to picture. Now we walk directly into light, and we receive the gifts that have been held in store for us since time began, kept waiting for today. (W 218) [214]
Forgiveness offers everything you want. Today all things you want are given you. Let not your gifts recede throughout the day, as you return again to meet a world of shifting change and bleak appearances. Retain your gifts in clear awareness as you see the changeless in the heart of change; the light of truth behind appearances. (W 218) [214]
Be tempted not to let your gifts slip by and drift into forgetfulness, but hold them firmly in your mind by your attempts to think of them at least a minute as each quarter of an hour passes by. Remind yourself how precious are these gifts with this reminder, which has power to hold your gifts in your awareness through the day:
"Forgiveness offers everything I want.
Today I have accepted this as true.
Today I have received the gifts of God." (W 219) [214]
. . . . .
What happens if we do not forgive?
"Forgiveness is the key to happiness." (W 214) [210]
Here is the answer to your search for peace. Here is the key to meaning in a world that seems to make no sense. Here is the way to safety in apparent dangers that appear to threaten you at every turn, and bring uncertainty to all your hopes of ever finding quietness and peace. Here are all questions answered; here the end of all uncertainty ensured at last. (W 214) [210]
The unforgiving mind is full of fear, and offers love no room to be itself; no place where it can spread its wings in peace and soar above the turmoil of the world. The unforgiving mind is sad, without the hope of respite and release from pain. It suffers and abides in misery, peering about in darkness, seeing not, yet certain of the danger lurking there. (W 214) [210]
The unforgiving mind is torn with doubt, confused about itself and all it sees; afraid and angry, weak and blustering, afraid to go ahead, afraid to stay, afraid to waken or to go to sleep, afraid of every sound, yet more afraid of stillness; terrified of darkness, yet more terrified at the approach of light. What can the unforgiving mind perceive but its damnation? What can it behold except the proof that all its sins are real? (W 214) [210]
The unforgiving mind sees no mistakes, but only sins. It looks upon the world with sightless eyes, and shrieks as it beholds its own projections rising to attack its miserable parody of life. It wants to live, yet wishes it were dead. It wants forgiveness, yet it sees no hope. It wants escape, yet can conceive of none because it sees the sinful everywhere. (W 214) [210]
The unforgiving mind is in despair, without the prospect of a future which can offer anything but more despair. Yet it regards its judgment of the world as irreversible, and does not see it has condemned itself to this despair. It thinks it cannot change, for what it sees bears witness that its judgment is correct. It does not ask, because it thinks it knows. It does not question, certain it is right. (W 214) [210]
Forgiveness is acquired. It is not inherent in the mind, which cannot sin. As sin is an idea you taught yourself, forgiveness must be learned by you as well, but from a Teacher other than yourself, Who represents the other Self in you. Through Him you learn how to forgive the self you think you made, and let it disappear. Thus you return your mind as one to Him Who is your Self, and Who can never sin. (W 214) [210]
Each unforgiving mind presents you with an opportunity to teach your own how to forgive itself. Each one awaits release from hell through you, and turns to you imploringly for Heaven here and now. It has no hope, but you become its hope. And as its hope, do you become your own. The unforgiving mind must learn through your forgiveness that it has been saved from hell. And as you teach salvation, you will learn. Yet all your teaching and your learning will be not of you, but of the Teacher Who was given you to show the way to you. (W 215) [211]
Do nothing, then, and let forgiveness show you what to do, through Him Who is your Guide, your Savior and Protector, strong in hope, and certain of your ultimate success. He has forgiven you already, for such is His function, given Him by God. Now must you share His function, and forgive whom He has saved, whose sinlessness He sees, and whom he honors as the Son of God. (W 401) [391]
Today we practice learning to forgive. If you are willing, you can learn today to take the key to happiness, and use it on your own behalf. We will devote ten minutes in the morning, and at night another ten, to learning how to give forgiveness and receive forgiveness, too. (W 215) [211]
The unforgiving mind does not believe that giving and receiving are the same. Yet we will try to learn today that they are one through practicing forgiveness toward one whom you think of as an enemy, and one whom you consider as a friend. And as you learn to see them both as one, we will extend the lesson to yourself, and see that their escape included yours. (W 215) [211]
Begin the longer practice periods by thinking of someone you do not like, who seems to irritate you, or to cause regret in you if you should meet him; one you actively despise, or merely try to overlook. It does not matter what the form your anger takes. You probably have chosen him already. He will do. (W 215) [211]
Now close your eyes and see him in your mind, and look at him a while. Try to perceive some light in him somewhere; a little gleam which you had never noticed. Try to find some little spark of brightness shining through the ugly picture that you hold of him. Look at this picture till you see a light somewhere within it, and then try to let this light extend until it covers him, and makes the picture beautiful and good. (W 215) [211]
Look at this changed perception for a while, and turn your mind to one you call a friend. Try to transfer the light you learned to see around your former "enemy" to him. Perceive him now as more than friend to you, for in that light his holiness shows you your savior, saved and saving, healed and whole. (W 215) [211]
Then let him offer you the light you see in him, and let your "enemy" and friend unite in blessing you with what you gave. Now are you one with them, and they with you. Now have you been forgiven by yourself. Do not forget, throughout the day, the role forgiveness plays in bringing happiness to every unforgiving mind, with yours among them. Every hour tell yourself:
"Forgiveness is the key to happiness"
Return Home
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Feb 17, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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Anyone can make a "new translation" of the bible and put anything they want into it; have it printed up, and demand of true believers compliance to the new view. And this is just what people have been doing for thousands of years. All the genocide in the old testament, supposedly done at God's command, was just evil men writing up their murderous schemes as revelations from God. All told 50-80% of the bible is corrupted by men, I think. But that still leaves alot of good stuff, mostly in the gospels.
The dark side of the bible: Numbers 31 Pay attention to verses 35-47. this is the sacrifice of 64 virgin girls as burnt offerings to God. And this is just a detailed account of one of many hundreds of genocides committed in the name of God.
Misogyny: Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives must worship husband as a god.
1Corin 14:34 ; 11:3
1Tim 2:8-15
1Peter3:1-6
Titus2:5
Col 3:18
__
Some really good passages:
Jesus curses the scribes, lawyers etc Matthew 23:13-39 These are the guys that wrote up their own evil schemes as the word of God. Jesus here condemns, I think, much of the bible, a compilation of men.
Jesus takes a bull whip to the money changers: John 2:15 Giving us a good christian solution to the financial crisis.
Jesus fasting in the wilderness to find God. Luke4:1-13. To follow his example, christianity would need to set aside most of the country as wilderness.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 17, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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Small Business February 11, 2010, 5:00PM EST
Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture
For a fee, this service will place your dog or cat in the home of a caring atheist on Judgment Day
By Mike Di Paola
Many people in the U.S.—perhaps 20 million to 40 million—believe there will be a Second Coming in their lifetimes, followed by the Rapture . In this event, they say, the righteous will be spirited away to a better place while the godless remain on Earth. But what will become of all the pets?
Bart Centre, 61, a retired retail executive in New Hampshire, says many people are troubled by this question, and he wants to help. He started a service called Eternal Earth-Bound Pets that promises to rescue and care for animals left behind by the saved.
Promoted on the Web as "the next best thing to pet salvation in a Post Rapture World," the service has attracted more than 100 clients, who pay $110 for a 10-year contract ($15 for each additional pet.) If the Rapture happens in that time, the pets left behind will have homes—with atheists. Centre has set up a national network of godless humans to carry out the mission. "If you love your pets, I can't understand how you could not consider this," he says.
Centre came up with the idea while working on his book, The Atheist Camel Chronicles, written under the pseudonym Dromedary Hump. In it, he says many unkind things about the devout and confesses that "I'm trying to figure out how to cash in on this hysteria to supplement my income."
Whatever motivates Centre, he has tapped into a source of genuine unease. Todd Strandberg, who founded a biblical prophecy Web site called raptureready.com that draws 250,000 unique visitors a month, agrees that Fido and Mittens are doomed. "Pets don't have souls, so they'll remain on Earth. I don't see how they can be taken with you," he says. "A lot of persons are concerned about their pets, but I don't know if they should necessarily trust atheists to take care of them."
This paradox poses a challenge for Centre. He must reassure the Rapture crowd that his pet rescuers are wicked enough to be left behind but good enough to take proper care of the abandoned pets. Rescuers must sign an affidavit to affirm their disbelief in God—and they must also clear a criminal background check. "We want people who have pets and are animal lovers," Centre says. They also must have the means to rescue and transport the animals in their charge. His network consists of 26 rescuers covering 22 states. "They take this very seriously," Centre says.
One of Centre's atheist recruits is Laura, a woman in her 30s who lives near the buckle of the Bible Belt in Oklahoma, and who prefers not to give her last name. She has two dogs of her own and has made a commitment to rescue four dogs and two cats when—if—the time comes. "If it happens, my first thought will be, 'I've got work to do,'" Laura says. "The first thing I'll do is find out where I need to go exactly."
The rescuers won't know the precise location of the animals until the Rapture arrives, at which time they will contact Centre for instructions. "I've got to get to [the pets] within a maximum of 18 to 24 hours. We really don't want them to wait more than a day." A day she believes will never come.
Centre doesn't think he will ever have to follow through on the service he offers. But he believes in virtuous acts. His Web site directs about $200 a month in proceeds from Google ads to food banks in Minnesota and New Hampshire. And to pet owners, he has already delivered something of great value: peace of mind, for just 92 cents a month. "If we thought the Rapture was really going to happen," Centre says, "obviously our rate structure would be much higher."
Di Paola is a reporter for Bloomberg News .
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_08/b4167070046047.htm?chan=rss_topStories_ssi_5
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 18, 2010 - 08:46am PT
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Psalm 40:5, You have multiplied, O Lord my God,
your wondrous deeds and your thoughts toward us;
none can compare with you!
I will proclaim and tell of them,
yet they are more than can be told.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 18, 2010 - 11:38am PT
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C'mon climbers, distinguish between the Grand Bible and the Holy Bible. A couple favorite passages from the Grand Bible:
(1) "Our future depends powerfully on how well we understand this Cosmos. (Sagan II, Chapter 3, Verse 23)
(2) "It is ol' time religious education which is an obstacle to higher education, both science education and general life education. It is adherence to ancient theist doctrines that stands in the way to better practices in the "practice" of living. Adapt. Upgrade. Insofar as you haven't already, do it. Do it in Yemen. Do it in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. Do it in America." (Cascott 3:12-14)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 18, 2010 - 12:14pm PT
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From the Grand Bible (in contrast to the Holy Bible) a favorite:
(1) "I'm a believer. I believe life's got rules. I believe you can learn these rules, practice them, train in them, and improve your performance in the art of living." (Cascott 3: 3-4)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 18, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
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"Place thy protection well, lest the ground rise up an smite thee."
Book of the Lake of Devils - 19:68-69
"The deader, the better."
Joseph - 19:74
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 19, 2010 - 08:38am PT
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2 Timothy 3:16, All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 19, 2010 - 10:16am PT
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From the Grand Bible (in contrast to the Holy Bible) another favorite-
"Open your eyes: See things for what they really are, thereby sparing yourself the pain of false attachments." Epictetus 8:5
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 20, 2010 - 08:01am PT
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1 Chronicles 29:11, Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and you are exalted as head above all.
Matthew 21:42, Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord's doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
Thru Christ the New Birth, verse by verse, to reverse the curse!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Feb 20, 2010 - 07:23pm PT
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I'm cracking up at all the rants to the tune of "Take it somewhere else." My favorites are Flouride's, like, "And I'd love to hear everyone's stories from those places. But I can't if this thread keeps bumping them off the front page." She apparently has no time to click the "Prior 30 topics" link even once, but there's time to follow this thread and keep posting to it.
Why single this thread out for special condemnation, anyway? I'm looking at the front page this minute. 30 topics there. 12 of them could be (in some cases, generously) construed as threads more or less related to climbing. The others range from mountain lion sightings (outdoors related, I guess, but not climbing), to hot Russian curling chicks (that instantly spun entirely and hilariously out of control, I might add), to "cannot be unseen" (and, really, don't look: mind-searing content there), cute but irrelevant content like "dare you," and the list goes on and on. Several of these entirely irrelevant threads (such as about dead heads) have more posts than this thread.
The idea that this is a "climbing" forum is completely laughable. Maybe it once started out that way. But somebody made the fateful decision to have this be an open forum, which guaranteed that it would not remain a "climbing" forum. Even calling it a "climber's" forum appears to be misconstrued. The current front page reveals that mostly climbers just like to bounce all sorts of things off of each other, which this thread does as validly as any other on the current front page.
So, Flouride et al, don't disingenuously bump this thread back to the front page with your complaints, keep posting to it, and then expect sympathy or the desired reaction because you don't have time to find those precious climbing threads. Click one link, maybe two. Takes less time than posting here. Or, you could spend some time on a rampage on the other 18 threads currently on the front page that are bumping the precious climbing threads down. Maybe you'll win the battle to make that Taco a purely climbing forum.
But I doubt it. [edit: advertising rates being tied to traffic, as they are.]
Love, joy, and sloppy warm fuzzies to all!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Feb 20, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
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"Our future depends powerfully on how well we understand this Cosmos. (Sagan II, Chapter 3, Verse 23)"
False, and laughably so, on many levels. Our future is fixed. It depends upon nothing about US, particularly not our "understanding." The cosmos is deterministic, according to Sagan himself. Nothing we can do, especially nothing we can KNOW, can affect the outcome. Maximum entropy (or something like it) is the deal-killer to all plans and knowledge. Death comes to all, including to the universe. Blackness... deadness. That is "our future," and no amount of understanding changes that.
Scientists like Sagan try to make the case that they are making the world better for all of us; that's what science does. But "better" is a value-laden term, and it is only carries the load Sagan needs it to carry in his arguments if it refers to an objective (as opposed to subjective) value. But science has no room or place for objective values. Read J.L. Mackie's book on this subject, "Inventing Right and Wrong," which argues for value-skepticism as a good empiricist/scientist should.
From a scientific perspective, your life (as individual) has no value; you are a meaningless blip that didn't even really make the cosmic radar screen. Your little light shines so dimly and briefly that it is literally meaningless except, perhaps, for a bit of genetic information that you might or might not pass along. But whether you pass it along or not, maximum entropy is coming, which makes the question entirely irrelevant.
Oh, don't try to borrow "value" from some subjective likes and dislikes you happen to have. Science isn't serving those! Science is finding the TRUTH; and the truth is (from our pitiful, subjective perspectives) that the universe cares NOTHING for us and didn't, doesn't, and won't have us in mind in what (inevitably) happens.
Our "understanding," (falsely so called) even of the cosmos is utterly, entirely, and completely meaningless. If it gives you a microwave oven or a space shuttle that doesn't blow up most of the time, so what? Sagan is talking in cosmic terms, and such grandiosity is supposed to generate the billions of dollars that scientists need to find the TRUTH. But the TRUTH is that the "truth" scientists find is that nothing matters. Not now, and not later. The fact that things "seem" to matter to you (personally and subjectively) is irrelevant on a cosmic scale. But Sagan and his ilk are not arguing that science will give us a better future al la microwave ovens! And the idea that science will give us a better COSMIC FUTURE is a lie. The future is fixed.
Don't hand me "quantum arguments," because they don't work to solve this problem. The uncertainty principle is a principle concerning epistemology not metaphysics. There are severe limitations on what we can know. "Quantum fluctuations" are simply reflections of the limits of empiricism. Most scientists and almost all philosophers considering the implications of quantum theory agree that at the deepest level, metaphysically speaking, there is not randomness; things just appear that way to us because of our epistemological limitations.
Science has nothing of VALUE to offer us: we get a picture of the cosmos that from a subjective perspective is ugly, short, harsh, uncaring, and dismal. In the short term, we get microwave ovens, though, so that's a good thing.
Love, joy, and sloppy warm fuzzies to all!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Feb 20, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
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Flouride is just complaining, nothing else to see, move along. She's whining on this thread, she's whining on other threads, she whined at Nomad, just nothign to do but whine. Post some of your own On Topic threads like I did, no one is stopping you. Of course, this requires you to have something to say.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 20, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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Note: Madbolter1 and MADBOLTER are different.
Madbolter1 wrote-
"False, and laughably so, on many levels."
Entirely depends on perspective and attitude.
Even in your response is a hint to the answer. There are different "levels," different ways, different perspectives and last but not least different attitudes in regard to looking at things, assessing things, valuing things.
Madbolter1- Ever question whether your perspective is too narrow or too singular?
I'll give you this much. Your piece got my attention because it's loaded with fact from the scientific account. But it's also loaded with a narrow perspective and bad attitude.
It's true, the universe is fixed in a deep sense. Life afterall boils down to physics and chemistry (and I hear you when you say quantum mechanics is no escape). But the rest of the truth, the fixity or fixation you speak of-- output-wise-- is very much a function of the functionality that living things exhibit as part of it. Did you get that?
Like Cap'n Algren said in Last Samurai (since you like movie quotes): A man does what he can until his destiny is revealed to him.
Bottom line: If a man's understanding is limited, his can-do (power) is limited.
More food for thought: Freedom, a type of freedom, exists even in a universe that's fixed, in different terms, even in a mechanistic universe. And we have a easy example to draw from. It's climbing.
A 5.13 climber has a "freedom" to climb through a 5.12 sequence that a 5.11 climber doesn't. All the while both climbers (and all living things) are mechanistic organisms. (Engineering calls this degrees of freedom or abilities of freedom.)
You represent, or perhaps better your piece represents (since I don't know you) a personality type drawing from science and engineering that other personality types also drawing from science and engineering (like me) want to / need to smack down.
Not only is the path to higher education (both science education and general life education) hindered by ol'time religious systems and their ancient theist doctrines but, as if that weren't enough, more so by the nihilistic / fatalistic attitudes of the sort you expressed above.
Your response above: Loaded with science and also loaded with narrow perspective and bad attitude.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 20, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
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It's good and damned necessary that Christians are absolutely correct in their beliefs, because if they were wrong they'd be pretty silly wouldn't they?
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Mimi
climber
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Feb 20, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
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Fructose, I'd never call you syrup. LOL!
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Chinchen
climber
Anacortes, wa
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Feb 20, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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why wont the rapture happen already?!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 20, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
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Science has nothing of VALUE to offer us
Maybe you're right about entropic inevitability. Maybe, in the ultra-long term, there is nothing that science -- or religion, for that matter -- can offer that will change anything.
But oh, madbolter, do you love anyone? Do you have children? A wife? Parents? Maybe a friend? Would you shrug your shoulders when your son or daughter dies of apendicitis? Sure, science has led us to safe surgery, but who really gives a sh#t, right? My daughter would have died eventually anyway, so why bother operating.
Maybe science will help us push back our entropic destiny, maybe it won't. But in the meantime, I'm sort of glad to have a heated house, and electric lights, and vaccinations against disease.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 20, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
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"I'm sort of glad to have a heated house, and electric lights, and vaccinations against disease."
That's because you've become weak.
A weak weak devolved human into an animalistic consciousness without even being aware of that.
We are not advancing at all.
We are worst off than thousands of years ago.
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dustonian
climber
Foresta
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Feb 21, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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Madbolter, you gotta be kidding. "Science has nothing of value to offer us"? That's a good one. Without science life expectancy was half what it is now--as little as 2 centuries ago. Prenatal screening, immunizations and cures to thousands of diseases, readily available food supply, clean water, electricity.... the list goes on and on. If the fruits of science have nothing of "VALUE" to offer you, then try living without them! Good luck on that. Sounds like you just don't appreciate what science already does for you and has done for you throughout your life. Just because it's not infused with didactic messages, sentimentality, magic, fairy tales, and supposed mythological meaning of some kind doesn't mean it has no "value"! You too, Werner--turn off the lights, heat, water and stop buying food and seeing the doctor and dentist when you get sick or injured before you mutter some empty gibberish about people being "weak" and reverting to their animal consciousness, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 21, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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Modern science is only the advancement of dressing the body and killing the soul.
Men of small minds are dazzled by shiny fancy coats ......
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dustonian
climber
Foresta
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Feb 21, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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Blah blah blah. Then stop driving, eating grocery store food, drinking running water, treating disease and injury, or using technology of any kind for that matter. Turn off the computer and stop posting on internet forums every day if it's so soulless! Otherwise you're just spewing hot air.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 21, 2010 - 12:16am PT
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No need to.
You are already a dead, walking corpse ......
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 21, 2010 - 12:18am PT
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"I'm sort of glad to have a heated house, and electric lights, and vaccinations against disease."
That's because you've become weak.
Well, Werner, maybe I have become weak. Or was always weak. I know you live in a cave with no light and heat, eating only squirrels and raw leaves and drinking water cupped out of the stream with your hands. But I am glad to have a heated house. And hot water on tap.
And if you say you don't, then I call bullsh#t. Tell me you live in a cave and sleep on a pile of leaves, eating only what you dig out of the forest floor and I'll apologize. But until then, well, yeah, I call bullsh#t.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 21, 2010 - 12:21am PT
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You are weak
And getting weaker as you post .....
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 21, 2010 - 12:23am PT
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You are weak
And getting weaker as you post .....
Whereas you, on the other hand, grow closer to enlightenment with every post. Right? Werner the master. The enlightened one. The Sensai.
Bah. Gomi no sensai.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 21, 2010 - 12:26am PT
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You're getting even weaker now.
You've lost your mind ......
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dustonian
climber
Foresta
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Feb 21, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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Now for "Back to the Dark Ages" with your host, enlightened pseudointellectual Werner Braun! I expect you will forgo the science and engineering design behind the Minitraxion next time you go out to toprope some crack you're climbed 19,000 times before? I would hate for you to turn into a "dead, walking corpse" by compromising your rigorous aesthetic and well thought-out guidelines for spiritual purity! Oh yeah, don't forget to walk to the Cookie and climb naked too.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 21, 2010 - 12:49am PT
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My little test speaks for its self.
I never mentioned anything to do with or about enlightenment or spirituality.
All you did was project your own idiotic thoughts onto the world outside of your self.
This proves you can't even think for yourself as you are controlled and bound by the shackles of your own prison mind that you've created.
Thus you're a weak, fallen, robotic, walking dead corpse ......
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Feb 21, 2010 - 12:52am PT
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Werner Braun wrote:
"That's because you've become weak.
A weak weak devolved human into an animalistic consciousness without even being aware of that.
We are not advancing at all.
We are worst off than thousands of years ago.
Modern science is only the advancement of dressing the body and killing the soul.
Men of small minds are dazzled by shiny fancy coats ......"
Um, did you forget your medication today or something?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 21, 2010 - 01:27am PT
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Nice rant, Richard. You sound like Solomon in Ecclesiastes:
Everything is meaningless!
I`d quote chapter and verse, but it`s about everywhere there.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 21, 2010 - 10:32am PT
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1 Thessalonians 5:8-10, But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 21, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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From the Grand Bible (as opposed to the Holy Bible):
Question: Do you believe a man can change his destiny? Answer: I believe a man does what he can, until his destiny is revealed to him. (Algren Katsumoto 6:13-14)
"a man does what he can" Hmm... maybe based on his empowerment through understanding, education, last but not least, attitude. (see madbolter1 above)
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jstan
climber
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Feb 21, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
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The latest posts are a huge improvement in this thread.
Way to go.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 21, 2010 - 05:57pm PT
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jstan- you just have to skip through the 3rd grader nonsense, ignore it and move on. (I thought Ghost and Dustonian were worthy-- in response to madbolter1-- up to the point they got it going with Brawny.)
From the Grand Bible (as opposed to the Holy Bible):
"You should take the utmost care not to impair the highest faculties of your mind. The virtuous life depends on reason and sound belief first and foremost. If you safeguard these, they will safeguard you." (Epictetus 25: 3-4)
the Grand Bible: any (personal) collection of life wisdom (e.g., in the form of books, stories, principles, etc.) gathered through life experience and education and applied to life-- meant to guide, to inspire, and/or to render better practices in the "practice" of living.
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Mimi
climber
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Feb 21, 2010 - 06:04pm PT
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This thread has some great stuff. LMAO! Not that this should be taken lightly.
Who says we can't all get along?!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Feb 21, 2010 - 06:09pm PT
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Round and round we go, huh?
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Feb 21, 2010 - 08:27pm PT
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werner's trolling....where does the arhat fit in, o bodhisattva?
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Feb 21, 2010 - 08:36pm PT
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"Shebat begat Hazmat who then begat Wombat who thenith smote Dingbat Son of Shebat's sister who was begat by the Father of both Shebat and Treebat tho lo upon the horizon did appear Juanbat the Heretic with Prickus Much Erectus who begat everyone."
Jonathan 4:20
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jstan
climber
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Feb 21, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
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Thank goodness. We are back to perfect love once more.
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Mimi
climber
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Feb 21, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
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It was only a matter of time before it degenerated with this crowd.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Feb 21, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
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What we really need is a climbing guide by an anonymous author, written thousands of years ago, that gives descriptions that don't match experience, that commands you to climb a certain way just because it says so, that warns of dire consequences if you do not climb that way or do not perform specified rituals and ablutions before during and after the climb.
Preferably this climbing guide should be written in verse.
It should list millions of sub-deities that were born of another god's magic pudding, etc. It should describe how they hold sway over some insignificant aspect--such as the god of hummocks. It should warn how you must appease any demi-gods whose realms you may encounter on a climb or risk coming back as a batsh#t-eating silverfish.
Then you can have arguments in camp with those folks that follow a more "advanced" climbing guide book. A guidebook that tells them what techniques are abominations, but also tells them to love their fellow climbers, but also tells them they'll be hurled into a molten pluton if they commit these abominations, but also tells them that if they have a personal relationship with the guidebook author's son all will be forgiven, and they can spend eternity climbing on Olympic Mons, and they'll make it on LEB's list of climbing's greatest and can never be kicked off.
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Daily Lama
Social climber
Ethereal Plane
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Feb 21, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
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Smoking the opium bowl of the masses.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 21, 2010 - 09:18pm PT
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WandaFuca- Imaginative parallelism.
It's just growing pains and rough patches, Cragman, as we make the transition from old belief to new. Relax.
It's one thing to criticise, another to construct.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Feb 21, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
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Many people react to opioids by vomiting.
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Daily Lama
Social climber
Ethereal Plane
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Feb 21, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
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I have the same reaction with Born-agains.
I blame the placenta.
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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Feb 21, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
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"Jesus wept" (John 11:35)
However, the New American Abridged Climbers Version (NAACV) quotes the following:
"Jesus balled his eyes out after he decked on Wyoming Sheep Ranch."
;)
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jstan
climber
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Feb 21, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
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I have been meaning to ask you Wanda. Didn't your hump used to be on the other shoulder?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Feb 21, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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HFCS and some others are completely missing the point. You all continue to spew purely subjective "things go better with science," and, "I like living longer," and, "love is wonderful," nonsense. I say nonsense from a scientific perspective. My own personal view is nothing like the scientific view. My personal perspective is filled with objective value and meaning, in part because I consider the scientific view to be barren, narrow, limited, and inadequate. All I was doing is pointing out just some of the implications of the scientific perspective and noting that science has NOTHING of OBJECTIVE value to offer.
You respond with the predicted appeals to subjective, emotive nonsense. So, go ahead and live in your comfy, self-deluded fantasy world, you who think that science has all the answers and is an entirely adequate explanation. To me it has always been hilarious to see the scientists in glass houses throwing stones at Christians that are supposedly self-deluded and believing a comforting lie. Scientists do the exact same thing by refusing to face the ACTUAL narrow, barren, meaninglessness of their own perspective, choosing instead to believe a different set of lies, living like anything matters when it really does not. We ALL live "as if" something matters; the difference is that Christians at least hold a world-view that is consistent with living in such faith.
If you think I'm making the scientific case sound too harsh and barren, then I'm happy to quote a host of scientists, including Nobel prize winners, at you. The scientific perspective is devoid of value and even freedom. The "climbing is an example of freedom" response was pitifully superficial and even ignorant of the issues.
So, revel in your comfy subjectivism, but don't throw stones at Christians who at least have an account of objective values and meaning. If you think it's a lie, fine, but then recognize that your own subjectivism is just as much of a lie.
Love, joy, and sloppy warm fuzzies to all!
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Daily Lama
Social climber
Ethereal Plane
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Feb 21, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
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Pharaohs' mad and we know why....can't get through the needle's eye!
I don't care if it rains or freezes long as I got my plastic Jesus riding on the dashboard of my car.
The Bible forbids eating shrimp! What kind of god doesn't like shrimp?
Why would anyone want to go the heaven especially if it's full of as#@&%es like you?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 21, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
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Mark 6:1-6, He went away from there and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him. And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom given to him? How are such mighty works done by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.” And he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He marveled because of their unbelief.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Feb 21, 2010 - 11:57pm PT
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What hump?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 22, 2010 - 08:39am PT
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(John 1:1,14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Feb 22, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
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madbolter: "choosing instead to believe a different set of lies"
Well, maybe now we're getting somewhere.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Feb 22, 2010 - 04:34pm PT
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I am sustained by the Love of God
Lesson 50
Here is the answer to every problem that will confront you, today and tomorrow and throughout time. In this world, you believe you are sustained by everything but God. Your faith is placed in the most trivial and insane symbols; pills, money, "protective" clothing, influence, prestige, being liked, knowing the "right" people, and an endless list of forms of nothingness that you endow with magical powers.
All these things are your replacements for the Love of God. All these things are cherished to ensure a body identification. They are songs of praise to the ego. Do not put your faith in the worthless. It will not sustain you.
Only the Love of God will protect you in all circumstances. It will lift you out of every trial, and raise you high above all the perceived dangers of this world into a climate of perfect peace and safety. It will transport you into a state of mind that nothing can threaten, nothing can disturb, and where nothing can intrude upon the eternal calm of the Son of God.
Put not your faith in illusions. They will fail you. Put all your faith in the Love of God within you; eternal, changeless and forever unfailing. This is the answer to whatever confronts you today. Through the Love of God within you, you can resolve all seeming difficulties without effort and in sure confidence. Tell yourself this often today. It is a declaration of release from the belief in idols. It is your acknowledgment of the truth about yourself.
For ten minutes, twice today, morning and evening, let the idea for today sink deep into your consciousness. Repeat it, think about it, let related thoughts come to help you recognize its truth, and allow peace to flow over you like a blanket of protection and surety. Let no idle and foolish thoughts enter to disturb the holy mind of the Son of God. Such is the Kingdom of Heaven . Such is the resting place where your Father has placed you forever
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 22, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
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Smote.
Edit- Beget.
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nasagal
Trad climber
South Bay SF
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Feb 22, 2010 - 07:15pm PT
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"...lead me to the rock that is higher than I"
Psalm 61 of King David
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 22, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
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What hump? You tell us, Eye-Gore.
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Gordon
Trad climber
South Florida
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Feb 22, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
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dog on si ereht
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jstan
climber
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Feb 22, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
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Sank yu Dokta!
and....and....and
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Feb 22, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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Froaderick!
. . . it might be dangerous . . . you go first.
Call it . . . a hunch. Ba-dum chi.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 22, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
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Psalm 52:8-9, I trust in the steadfast love of God
forever and ever.
I will thank you forever,
because you have done it.
I will wait for your name, for it is good,
in the presence of the godly.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Feb 22, 2010 - 11:47pm PT
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The End.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Feb 23, 2010 - 12:03am PT
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Please! Remain in your seats, I beg you! We are not children here, we are scientists! I assure you there is nothing to fear!
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 23, 2010 - 12:14am PT
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"I beg you! We are not children here, we are scientists! I assure you there is nothing to fear!"
Famous last words ........
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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Feb 23, 2010 - 12:25am PT
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For the experiment to be a success, all of the body parts must be enlarged.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Feb 23, 2010 - 12:54am PT
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He's going to be very popular.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 23, 2010 - 08:51am PT
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1 Corinthians 15:3-4, For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Feb 23, 2010 - 10:12am PT
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LIFE! DO YOU HEAR ME? GIVE MY CREATION... LIFE!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 23, 2010 - 11:48am PT
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From the Grand Bible (as opposed to the Holy Bible):
"Life is to be managed, not cured." (Cascott 11:3)
Hadrian: Brick by brick.
Ghandi: Be the change you seek in the world.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Feb 23, 2010 - 01:49pm PT
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"and you will be hated by all because of My name." Luke 21:17.
"Those who hate the Lord...and their time of punishment would be forever!" Psalm 81:15.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 23, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
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What can I say?
I am speechless.
What is this off topic stuff that keeps creeping in?
I will now get vicious. Wanda, you have counted the number of times the bell tolled, have you not?
Whinnying sounds here.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 24, 2010 - 09:09am PT
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Ephesians 2:8-10, For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 24, 2010 - 10:37am PT
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From the Grand Bible (as opposed to the Holy Bible), Book of Koberg:
Chapter 3: 1-5
1. Don't believe everything you hear or read.
2. Without having been there before, you may have to feel your way slowly.
3. Having been there before can stop you from finding new ways to get there.
4. The solution of one problem can be related to other kinds of problems.
5. Just as the conscious-thinking process of the brain can work for you, so can the subconscious or "chance" processes.
What to notice: (a) how many of these problem solving strategies "carry over" to climbing; (b) how little "problem solving strategies" is covered in ol' time religious scripture (e.g., Koran, Torah, Holy Bible) though its put forth as guidance for life.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 24, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
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http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t024.html
The words were "Iesvs Nazarenvs Rex Ivdaeorvm." Latin uses “I” instead of the English “J”, and “V” instead of “U” (i.e., Jesus Nazarenus Rex Judaeorum). The English translation is "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews."
Obviosly INRI is a accronym of the original words.
These words nailed above Jesus's head on the cross fulfilled prophecy from the Old Testament, and obviously neither Jesus, nor his followers had anything to do with it. Pontius Pilate fulfilled scripture by writing these words and having them nailed/placed above Jesus's head.
The Lord GOD works in mysterious ways and knows all. Even those who don't love him fulfill destinies. He knows what we are going to do before we do it, yet he gives us all a chance to come back to him, over, and over, and over again throughout our lives. He loves those who don't love him, nor acknowledge him and he provides what we all need to live. He makes it rain on the just and the unjust.
His love and patience with us is beyond comprehension, it is supernatural. It is beyond human ability to imagine. Many of us would have probably pulled the plug already on all of creation if we had the authority and ability to do so.
GOD is not like that, he is perfect.
It is high time we show him the same love and respect.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 24, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
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Auggh, Klimmer, say it ain't true!
You've written some insightful stuff on other threads, a couple I've read. So I'm shocked now- You're a traditional fundamentalist Christian?!! believing all that bronze age narrative if not superstition?
What is your grasp of history? Of the origin of the planet? Of the origin of the species? Auggh!
Adapt.
Update your brain software.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Feb 24, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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I usually stay away from this type of stuff like I stay away from church, but I couldn't resist.
'But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.'
Was Jesus a socialist?
I hope so.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 24, 2010 - 10:52pm PT
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Auggh, Klimmer, say it ain't true!
You've written some insightful stuff on other threads, a couple I've read. So I'm shocked now- You're a traditional fundamentalist Christian?!! believing all that bronze age narrative if not superstition?
What is your grasp of history? Of the origin of the planet? Of the origin of the species? Auggh!
Adapt.
Update your brain software.
Don't lump and classify all Christians into the Fundamentalist camp.
I beleive in GOD. I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal savior. I believe in the word of GOD. It takes an incredible in depth study to seperate fact from parable from allegory from historical story in the Bible. You even have to consider the truths now flowing forth from Bible Code. You have to "study to show yourself approved." I'm a Theistic Evolutionist. The Earth is about 4.56 Billion years old, our Sun is nearer to 5 Billion years, and the Universe is about 13.7 Billion years in age, as far as we now know. There is a very diverse and continual spectrum on the faith wheel in Christendom. I do not know it all. I'm a student of GOD, a disciple of Christ, and of student of science. I suppose I always will be. I doubt I ever will know it all. Someday I hope to ask GOD many outstanding questions. I hope he will have the patience to answer them all, but we'll have eternity to sort it all out. I am looking forward to those talks someday.
But I have this life now to live with my wife, my family, and my friends. I would like to make this life as rich and as long as possible and with a great deal of adventure, science, and getting to know and be more like Christ. I sure got a long way to go.
I teach HS Physics and Earth Science and I believe in GOD. I do science and have faith just like so many before me: Aristotle, Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton just to name a few. Just as long as I keep the Church and State seperate, it will be OK. Science is about Cosmic Order. Faith is about Cosmic Purpose. Both answer very important questions and are both compatible, just different tools to answer different questions.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 24, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
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The Sin of Partiality
James 2:1-13, My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. 2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” 4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 24, 2010 - 11:15pm PT
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From the Grand Bible (as opposed to the Holy Bible), Book of Koberg:
Problem Solving
Chapter 3: 6-10
6. Find resolution through analysis. Don't be mislead by initially fuzzy problem statements.
7. Solve problems more thoroughly by determining to see inside them rather than merely looking at their surface.
8. When you relate things to one another, you will find connections between them.
9. Use your imagination to set things free. Use it to turn things upside down, to take them out of their context for a different point of view.
10. Use your imagination to open the door to many new images and to an increased image-vocabulary.
What to notice: (a) Many of these problem solving strategies "carry over" to climbing; (b) Few "problem solving strategies" are mentioned let alone emphasized in Abrahamic scriptures though these scriptures are put forth as guidance for life.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 25, 2010 - 08:22am PT
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Luke 3:41-50, “A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?” 43 Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt.” And he said to him, “You have judged rightly.” 44 Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. 47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48 And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, “Who is this, who even forgives sins?” 50 And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
James 3:17-18, But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. 18 And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 25, 2010 - 10:12am PT
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From the Grand Bible (as opposed to the Holy Bible), Book of Koberg:
Chapter 3: 11-15
11. There are more ways than one to get to the same place.
12. If it doesn't work, you may have missed something. Try it again.
13. Get lots of facts. Try to see that the problem is stated realistically.
14. Success is the result of either conscious intent or chance. Neither is 100% dependable. We can only do our best.
15. Learning by doing is often faster (but not necessarily easier) than learning vicariously through others.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 25, 2010 - 11:40am PT
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Klimmer wrote-
I do science and have faith just like so many before me: Aristotle, Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton just to name a few. Just as long as I keep the Church and State seperate, it will be OK. Science is about Cosmic Order. Faith is about Cosmic Purpose. Both answer very important questions and are both compatible, just different tools to answer different questions.
It's lame to cite the ol' timers "Aristotle, Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton." Look at the ages they lived in. Modern science was yet to be born. Under those circumstances (of underdevelopment) most of us would've had some degree of "supernaturalist" faith.
Science and belief are compatible. I have a science education. And I have belief (i.e., mental holdings). I have belief in and out of science. And not one scintilla is "supernaturalist" belief.
Same with faith. I have faith (i.e., trust). I have faith in and out of science. And not one scintilla is "supernaturalist" faith.
You're deluding yourself (and perhaps those you address as a teacher) if you think any "supernaturalist" belief or "supernaturalist" faith or "supernaturalist" doctrine is compatible with science, science education or the Scientific Story. This is the line of appeasers, ideologues or partisans that's repeated- auggh- like a broken record.
I have a "belief discipline" practice. It deals with "what is" in terms of facts (like science), "what matters" (to the heart) and "what works" in terms of life strategies.
Ghandi: Be the change you seek in the world.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 25, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
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HFCS,
You quoted and said . . .
Klimmer wrote-
I do science and have faith just like so many before me: Aristotle, Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton just to name a few. Just as long as I keep the Church and State seperate, it will be OK. Science is about Cosmic Order. Faith is about Cosmic Purpose. Both answer very important questions and are both compatible, just different tools to answer different questions.
It's lame to cite the ol' timers "Aristotle, Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton." Look at the ages they lived in. Modern science was yet to be born. Under those circumstances (of underdevelopment) most of us would've had some degree of "supernaturalist" faith.
Science and belief are compatible. I have a science education. And I have belief (i.e., mental holdings). I have belief in and out of science. And not one scintilla is "supernaturalist" belief.
Same with faith. I have faith (i.e., trust). I have faith in and out of science. And not one scintilla is "supernaturalist" faith.
You're deluding yourself (and perhaps those you address as a teacher) if you think any "supernaturalist" belief or "supernaturalist" faith or "supernaturalist" doctrine is compatible with science, science education or the Scientific Story. This is the line of appeasers, ideologues or partisans that's repeated- auggh- like a broken record.
I have a "belief discipline" practice. It deals with "what is" in terms of facts (like science), "what matters" (to the heart) and "what works" in terms of life strategies.
Ghandi: Be the change you seek in the world.
So you would throw all the Fathers of Modern Science into the dust bin? There are many, many more whom I could also list who are men of faith and men of science. Those are just some of the Fathers of modern science I listed.
Answer me just this one question:
Can Science answer all questions?
HFCS, now if you were a teacher of Science in public school, you would know that you have to keep Church and State seperate. That means you can not bring faith and religion into the classroom. You can talk about their differences and the fact that they answer different questions though. Also you can not belittle or talk down to any student regarding their faiths and their religions. If you do, you are not abidding by seperation of Church and State and will be hit with a lawsuit by a savvy student and their parents. Seperation of Church and State cuts both ways.
We talk about the differences and the fact that faith and science answer different questions. Science answers How? questions. Faith and Religion answer Why? questions. Paul Hewitt, the author of Conceptual Physics, which many consider the bible of conceptual physics spells this out very, very well. I totally agree with his point of view on this matter. Great text book.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 25, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
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Reframe it. Geez.
(1) Re-read the post. You didn't read me say- throw those guys in the dust bin. Pretty lame response. Re-read it in context.
(2) Klimmer wrote-
Can Science answer all questions?
Of course science can't answer all questions. Who says that? I've been in science and engineering 40 years and I haven't heard anyone ever say that.
Science is an investigational tool. That's all it is. An investigational tool for figuring out (a) how the world works and (b) how life works in terms of "what is", in terms of facts.
Look beyond Middle East "traditional" belief (traditional faith) discipline models. That's what modernity's transitioning to this century. There are "practices" of living (I call them belief discipline practices) that cover "what matters" and "what works" in addition to "what is" that don't depend on any ol time supernaturalist doctrines or supernaturalist belief at all.
Insofar as you're a teacher, you ought to get with it. Adapt. Upgrade. Maybe take some courses in the life sciences, too, with the goal to expand your "science span." Insofar as you have a "science span" you're enabled to see the consistency of the Scientific Story and how inconsistent the ancient Abrahamic narrative (featured in Judaism, Christianity and Islam) is with it.
Good luck.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 26, 2010 - 08:45am PT
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Joel 2:13, Return to the Lord your God,
for he is gracious and merciful,
slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love;
and he relents over disaster.
Matthew 5:6, Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 26, 2010 - 09:37am PT
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I would prefer to see this thread return to . . . Favorite Bible Passages? That is what this whole thread is supposed to be about. And I'm pretty sure the OP meant the Holy Bible, not any other religious text. But this is the SuperTaco and many wonderful and often times weird things happen here so who am I to complain?
But I'm pretty sure this is gonna be my last response to HFCS on this . . .
However, I reserve the right to add links and resources to this post as I find the time . . .
Reframe it. Geez.
(1) Re-read the post. You didn't read me say- throw those guys in the dust bin. Pretty lame response. Re-read it in context.
My response: Didn't say you did say those words. Those are my words.
Your attitude towards the founding Fathers of Modern Science is pretty disrespectful. Your arguement is a cop-out. Copernicus, Keplar, Galileo, and Newton all had devout faith, yet they were also all brave enough to challenge the innacurate faith dogmas of their day, whether they wrote it, argued it publically, or believed it secretly, and then wrote it. To suggest they believed that only because that is what everyone else believed is a very wrong arguement, and a serious cop-out. How can you say that when they challenged incorrect dogmas? Doesn't mean they didn't believe in GOD. They had problems with the walls erected by men. You can not seperate the person and what they believed and had faith in, from their ability to do good science. Perhaps it came from the same source of inspiration? That is like saying that today, men and women doing great science whom are also devout Christians, do so because everyone else is. No, we know that is not true. No, it takes guts to buck the established system. Perhaps it allows insights and allows one to see further than someone who would artificially erect a massive wall of doubt and bodly claim there is no GOD, and to say belief in GOD and to have child-like faith and to believe in supernatural miracles is all a child's fantasy.
Actually, the field of Modern Physics and Cosmology today are discovering some pretty amazing phenomenon and new insigths that just a few years ago sounded like miracles and very supernatural to everyone. Is it possible that what we call supernatural and unreal today, is really very real and very possible and natural using the laws of the Universe we do not yet understand and have the ability yet to manipulate, yet there maybe intelligence that exists in the Universe that does have that ability? I think this is very possible, not just that, it is happening now and has been happening since the dawn of time. Can I prove this? No. It is a hypothesis. But I'm pretty sure one day we will all know. I'm counting on it.
Apparently you think all Christians are Fundamentalists? Do you not know there is a wide spectrum of belief? I told you I'm a Theistic Evolutionist. Perhaps you didn't read that and understand what that means. Read the book, The Science of God: The Convergence of Scientific and Biblical Wisdom.
Copernicus: Held an important position in the Church, did astronomy observations and took data on his own time. Knew enough to hold off publishing his findings regarding the Heliocentric model of the Solar System, since he knew he would suffer the outfall of challenging the church. He received a copy of his book the day he died.
Kepler: Devout, had faith. Discovered his Laws of Planetary Motion, and then used them to try to find the Star of Bethlehem. Died without successfully doing so. But he was on the right path. In our day a Lawyer, amatuer astronomer/enthusiast, and Christian has done so now. Using the pc program "Starry Night" which uses Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion and Newton's Universal Law of Gravity, he has now found the Star of Bethlehem and more. http://thestarofbethlehemmovie.com/
Kepler is probably smiling proudly from Heaven. Science can't explain the juxtaposition of these 2 astronomical events with these 2 very important historical events in all of Christendom: the birth of Christ and the Crucifixion of Christ. Yet both are marked by very significant astronomical events that we can now know occured by using Kelpar's Laws and going back in time. Keplar's Laws predict future planetary motion as well as what happened in the past perfectly.
Galileo: Devout Catholic, yet challenged the Church. Great Scientist. Interested in everyhting. Even under house arrest by the Church, he didn't lose faith, and he continued to do science. He validated Copernicus's Heliocentric model of the Solar System demolishing the Aristotle Geocentric model and what the Church also agreed with. The Catholic Church opinion was pretty much whatever Aristotle said regarding the natural world. At the time the Catholic Church was all about political power, and very hypocritical. Galileo knew it, and so did the common people of his day. Galileo was famous in his own time, very popular. He loved a good arguement and he was very good at it; he published his writings in Italian so everyone would benefit. He challenged the Church often and the people loved him for it. He was too famous to be burned at the stake or to be put to death, so they put him in house arrest for the remainder of his life. His daughter bringing him food would smuggle out his notes and they were eventually published. Where there is a will there is a way.
See: NOVA: Galileo's Battle for the Heavens
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/galileo/
Newton: So much to say here and wonderful links to place. I'll come back and add more later. Let's just say Newton makes the point about having the ability to do really great science and having faith in GOD very, very well.
See: NOVA: Newton's Dark Secrets
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/newton/
So what did Newton accomplish and really almost all before the age of 26?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/newton/legacy.html
Absolutely brilliant.
But he was a man of Faith also. He calculated his estimate for the end of the world according to his research within the Bible: 2060 AD
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23401099-the-world-will-end-in-2060-according-to-newton.do
At the rate we are going and the global problems we are facing he was amazingly very insightful. Once again, way ahead of his time.
Newton also believed there was a Bible Code and he searched for it and searched for it, to no avail. Most of his writings relate to this and his prediction of the end of the world. Infact, they dwarf his science writings in shear volume. Today, we now know there is a Bible Code, but we didn't find it until the power of the computer became available. Seems to match the prophecy of the Bible regarding this hidden knowledge.
Daniel 12:4 (KJV)
"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
http://bible.cc/daniel/12-4.htm
Sounds like our time the Lord is describing. The words of the book (the book of Daniel or perhaps the Lord is referring to the entire Bible Code) would be sealed until the end time. The end time can be desrcibed as people running to and fro, perhaps this is referring to our ability to travel the world over very quickly, or perhaps our ability to virtually run around the world near the speed of light using the internet. The end time will be a period of increased knowledge. That certainly describes our day and age. What is the rate at which knowledge now doubles? The internet only increases this exponentially, with our ability now to instantly have an enormous knowledge base at our finger tips.
Follow this link: Watch all the videos in order. They will tell you the amazing story of the discovery and reality of the Bible Code. It is empirically real, and both qualitatively and quantitatively measurable. It is beyond statistical chance. Science can't explain it. It just is. GOD IS.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=972999&msg=996588#msg996588
Remember, these are the Fathers of Modern Science, they all had personal devout faith, and they did wonderful science and made brilliant scientific discoveries that changed our world forever.
(2) Klimmer wrote-
Can Science answer all questions?
Of course science can't answer all questions. Who says that? I've been in science and engineering 40 years and I haven't heard anyone ever say that.
Science is an investigational tool. That's all it is. An investigational tool for figuring out (a) how the world works and (b) how life works in terms of "what is", in terms of facts.
Yes, you pretty much answered the obvious answer. So-there-for, there must be other "tools" to answer these other questions that are outside of science's ability to answer. If it isn't testable then science can't work with it. Science can only work with testable hypotheses. These other tools would be: faith, religion, philosophy, reasoning and logic to name a few.
Look beyond Middle East "traditional" belief (traditional faith) discipline models. That's what modernity's transitioning to this century. There are "practices" of living (I call them belief discipline practices) that cover "what matters" and "what works" in addition to "what is" that don't depend on any ol time supernaturalist doctrines or supernaturalist belief at all.
Insofar as you're a teacher, you ought to get with it. Adapt. Upgrade. Maybe take some courses in the life sciences, too, with the goal to expand your "science span."
Who says I haven't? I have taken course work on other religions. One of the hardest college classes I had was a World Religion class. The instructor was a Catholic Priest/Buddist Monk. I think he was into asceticism. He made us earn our grade. We nearly had to crawl on our knees when turning in all the papers he assigned.
Wow, that is amazingly ignorant of you to say and pretty darn assuming.
I started out in college with my major as biology (I have taken many biology courses), then I changed to geology (again many courses), then because I enjoyed it all including meteorology I majored in Physical Geography with well rounded course work in all the spheres of the Geosphere: lithosphere, hydrosphere, atmosphere, biosphere, and the human/cultural sphere. Perfect for teaching Earth Science. I also teach Physics. Math, Physics, and Chemistry, are the foundations of all science, and as a scientist, and teacher, I have a solid foundation. (Always room for more though!)
Do I know it all? Absolutely not. I will always be a student of science. I would suspect Galileo, Newton, and Einstein would say the same thing. We teachers are always taking more classes and "upgrading." Professional hours are a requirement to maintain our California Teaching credentials. Even if it wasn't required, I would do it on my own anyway, I enjoy taking additional college courses whenever I can. I have more than enough units above and beyond my bachelors degree to compare to a masters and then some, but to no avail. I do not have my masters. Perhaps I will go after it in the field of meteoritics, since that is where my interests are now. I'm very heavy into Astronomy, Cosmology, and Meteoritics. My background has prepared me really well for it, and its what I really enjoy doing on my own time when I'm not teaching. I'm good at it. Pulls everything that I know together in one great package: physics, chemistry, astronomy, and even my background in Physical Geography and Earth Science/Geology is a very important component. It even pulls in my interests in Astrobiology! ALH84001 say no more.
Insofar as you have a "science span" you're enabled to see the consistency of the Scientific Story and how inconsistent the ancient Abrahamic narrative (featured in Judaism, Christianity and Islam) is with it.
I would strongly disagree with you. The Judaic/Christian narrative is very consistant with Science. Theistic Evolution. Learn about it. Read the book, The Science of God: The Convergence of Scientific and Biblical Wisdom, by Gerald L. Schroeder.
It takes incredible wisdom, study, and yes inspiration from GOD, the Holy Ghost, to seperate in the Bible what is fact, what is historical fact, what is story, what is allegory, what is analogy, what is parable, what is prophecy and more. GOD didn't make it easy, he wants us to thirst for it, and when we do incredible insights are given. To quote the good book:
2 Tim. 2:15 (KJV)
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
http://scripturetext.com/2_timothy/2-15.htm
Good luck.
Luck has nothing to do with it. Ability, hard work, devotion, faith, and inspiration has everything to do with it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 26, 2010 - 10:55am PT
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Re: (1) Belief Upgrade Strategy (2) Belief Discipline Remodeling
To: Everyone interested in better practices in the "practice" of living (who isn't a supernaturalist) and everyone interested in general life guidance "modeling"
__
Until modernity gets around to building a modern spiritual belief discipline practice-- one based on the Scientific Story-- and until it gets around to institutionalizing it socially-- you must "take ownership" of your own spiritual belief discipline practice and work it out for yourself.
An organizing principle that worked for me: Develop your spiritual discipline on a basis of (1) "what is" in terms of facts, (2) "what matters" to the heart, (3) "what works" in terms of life strategies.
Lastly: Insofar as you can work this "lifesmart trinity" into a narrative-- a comprehensive overarching narrative that ties everything together-- in a way that works for you (regarding guidance, inspiration, support, etc.), the better.
Favorite passages from the Grand Bible (as opposed to the Holy Bible):
"To know what you don't know is critical to successful solutions. Dealing with your ignorance in a conscious way leads to a keener awareness." (Koberg 3:8)
"What appears to be is not always what really is. Perception and reality differ." (Koberg 3:16)
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Feb 26, 2010 - 11:42am PT
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2 The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge.
He is my shield and the horn [a] of my salvation, my stronghold
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 26, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
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Modern Miracles do happen . . .
The suffering servant is an obvious prophecy to those of us who know Yeshua, Jesus on a personal level. This scripture in Isaiah is a prophecy of the coming Messiah. He would come first as a suffering servant. The fact that Bible Code tells us what his exact Earthly name would be hundreds of years prior to his appearance on Earth, and yet this discovery was not meant for their day, but ours, about 2 thousand years after his life on Earth, is none other than a miracle and proof that GOD works in wonderful and mysterious ways.
If you want evidence Of GOD and evidence of modern day miracles and that they do indeed exist, there you go.
There is no other explaination.
Additional edit:
These wondeful secrets and these revealed messages from GOD are for our time.
Daniel 12:4 (KJV)
"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
http://bible.cc/daniel/12-4.htm
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 27, 2010 - 08:33am PT
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2 John 1:9, Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
2 Corinthians 5:21, For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 27, 2010 - 10:51am PT
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re: three "fundamental" topics
From the Grand Bible, the "Facts" section:
(1) re: spirituality: No ghost in the machine. The carnate spirit dies with the body. (2) re: reproduction: Humans bear humans, not Gods. (Julius Caesar of the Romans was not a God. Jesus of the Hebrews was not a God. Ptolemy and his sister Cleopatra of Egypt were not Gods.) (3) re: evil: Bad things in the living world happen ("stuff happens") not because of any "Fall" (the Mosaic narrative, for which descendants have to pay the price and be forgiven) but because forces (e.g., entropy to predation) are set against them, against living things.
Ancient (traditional) theist doctrines (such as those referenced above) fly in the face of modern scientific wisdom. Science and traditional theology are not compatible.
The propaganda of a dying institution-
"Science and traditional theism are compatible." Hogwash. This is hogwash. It's time we stopped buying into it. In the interest of being more informed citizens of a modern democracy. In the interest of better practices.
People who would use their authority (e.g., a policeman, teacher) to say to kids (either directly or indirectly) that science and traditional theism are compatible are spewing nonsense. Don't let them get away with it.
Ghandi: Be the change you seek in the world.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:37am PT
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HFCS,
If you ever become a public school teacher be warned, like I said before, the Seperation of Church and State in public institutions cuts both ways, and I support it.
You can not advocate one religion over another and you can not make fun or belittle anyone's religion. Could you handle doing that?
You can talk about all of them though and discuss them openly in context and explain them as the followers would and as they believe their faiths to be, obviously not in a science classroom since it would be out of context, but in a social science classroom no problem.
I do not noramlly link to FOX News so please forgive me everyone!:
Student Sues 'Anti-Christian' Teacher Over Remarks in Class
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,345274,00.html
Student Sues Over Creationism!
http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=c9045629645f002bdeeb
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 27, 2010 - 11:46am PT
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George Harrison was a truth seeker. He admonished everyone to keep seeking after GOD before he sadly passed away. He was a very deep spiritual man. I miss him.
:_(
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Feb 28, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
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Matthew 7:24-27, “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Feb 28, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
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HFCS- You might add
Zen proverbs and Kung Fu
quotes to your Grand Bible. :)
Lot of good stuff there for
"guidance, inspiration and support."
I just posted one
of my favorites on Norton's thread.
Dealing with fate and choice.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Feb 28, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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Whoa!
I think it is time for everyone to chill out, pull out the old Bible and RELAX. This is my favorite passage.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Feb 28, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
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Whoa is right, it's those feet
that got my attention!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Now that's a good passage!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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There's more hidden in the words of the Bible to give you real forgiveness peace, joy, and the Love of God!
Matthew 10:16, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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From the freespirit's Grand Bible (as opposed to the Christian's Holy Bible):
"Get the move on. Get yourself moving. If you wait for someone or something else to move you, it is possible to find yourself headed in an uncomfortable direction." Lifecoaches 6: 5
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Now anything in Nahum would normally be among the most obscure, Guido!
John
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Dickbob
climber
Colorado
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Jesus wept.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Jesus welded together the Sermon on the Mount on a cold afternoon. Joined the men in a weld of Love.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Ephesians 3:14-21, For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
20 Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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the important thing here is that *my* imaginary friend is the One True imaginary friend - the hundreds worshiped before and after my imaginary friend's marketing blitz began are False imaginary friends, and mine is the only true imaginary friend...
it's ok to be scared, people - life is scary. But you don't have to be deceived and fleeced...
my favorite part in the bible is where jesus says what it takes to follow him, and NO ONE TODAY DOES THIS...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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From the Grand Bible:
We've identified a species called Hydrocarbon Man who lives on the strength of an oil supply beneath him. His days are numbered. When cheap oil ends, panic will ensue, societies will collapse and the earth's carrying capacity of 6.5 billion will drop to 1.5 billion. So prepare. (Ends of Eras 8:3-4)
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jstan
climber
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Don¹t Let the Dog L!ck Your Privates
Things You Never Thought You'd Say
Tuesday, January 12, 2010
by STARSHINE ROSHELL
I'm what they call a word person, preferring "viridian" to dreary ³green,² and never uttering
"confused" when "flummoxed" is within reach.
An English major whose motif-musing and allusion-hunting skills have proven all but useless in
the real world, I take admittedly odd delight in the careful craft of sentence-smithing. One of my
prized possessions is a tome titled The Highly Selective Thesaurus for the Extraordinarily
Literate, and I fling myself from bed each morning to savor my Word of the Day email from
dictionary.com‹a wellspring of toothsome terms like numinous, doff, and foofaraw. I challenge
myself to use each new word in conversation before the week is over, and just never you mind
whether I'm successful or not. The point is I want to.
Which is why I find parenting to be a bit of a bore. As a mother, 87 percent of the sentences that
spring from my mouth are vapid. Artless. In fact, they border on asinine. And most of them
should go without saying: "Stop hitting yourself." "Get your jacket out of the peanut butter." "No
spitting in Mommy's bed." There's the perennial, "You must use a tissue for that," and the all-
too-frequent, "Well, would you like it if I called you an oogie bananahead?" I recently heard
myself say, "We never, ever lick the bottoms of our shoes." And I wondered what the devil had
become of my dexterity for discourse‹let alone my children's common sense.
I realize that human beings aren't born with an aptitude for basic hygiene and social etiquette,
and mine are no exception. Friends tell me they've been shocked to have to articulate these
instructions to their offspring: "Stop picking your sister's nose." "Please don't hump your pillow in
front of other people." "Do not throw the cat in there again."
Others never thought they'd have to say this: "Yes, underwear is a requirement at the dinner
table. Particularly when you're not wearing pants." Or this: "If you went pee-pee in the bathwater,
you probably should not be drinking it." One mom recently found herself offering this string of
seemingly self-evident edicts: "Get your hands out of your pants" Š "Get your hands out of her
pants" Š "Go wash your hands."
I have faith our kids will memorize all of these rules eventually, and that there will be no need to
whisper "stop pulling up your shirt" as they walk down the aisle. (If there is, at least we'll be able
to employ more graceful language by then, such as, "Darling, do refrain from exposing your
thorax. It's entirely inappropriate to both the venue and occasion.")
Meanwhile, though, I confess I'm disappointed with my role as Declarer of the Dull Directive.
Deficient in other motherly assets, I always assumed that my love of language would compensate
for my lack of patience and my distaste for holiday handicraft. Indeed, my favorite parenting
moments‹the few that leave me feeling especially well-equipped for this job‹are when my kids
ask me to explain an abstract concept like death or sarcasm or sponge cake and I can discharge
a chain of images and metaphors that leave them sitting silent, their eyes shifting and unfocused
as they process the description, and then lead them to a clear-as-a-windowpane, "Oh!"
So forgive me if flinging phrases like, "Don't let the dog l!ck your privates" feels like wasting the
paltry parental proficiency I possess. And not just wasting it, either. Squandering! Nay, fribbling
it away like so much worthless foofaraw!
I'm sorry. But it had to be said.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Acts 2:17-21, “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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From the Grand Bible:
"All that's required for bronze age ignorance to prevail is for informed believers to do nothing." (Cascott 3:16)
Hadrian: Brick by brick.
Ghandi: Be the change you seek in the world.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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HFCS, Full Silos of Iowa...
Luke 12:13-21, Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” 14 But he said to him, “Man, who made me a judge or arbitrator over you?” 15 And he said to them, “Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.” 16 And he told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man produced plentifully, 17 and he thought to himself, ‘What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?’ 18 And he said, ‘I will do this: I will tear down my barns (SILOS) and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.’ 20 But God said to him, Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ 21 So is the one who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God.”
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Proverbs 5:21-23, For a man's ways are before the eyes of the Lord,
and he ponders all his paths.
22 The iniquities of the wicked ensnare him,
and he is held fast in the cords of his sin.
23 He dies for lack of discipline,
and because of his great folly he is led astray.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Revelation 22:18-19, I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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It's only talk.
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Proverbs 23:13 "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
Proverbs 20:30 "The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil."
Nice to have justification for beating your child black and blue!! Good Christian teaching!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Tom,
Those two verses are not related in any way, and come from two different places. It's scarcely a justification.
As for "the rod", if you study the ancient Hebrew, that phrase is generally believed to be a figure of speech for discipline of any kind, and not necessarily corporal punishment.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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As for "the rod"...
Lame.
Yeah, and a "day" really doesn't mean a day. And "fear" really doesn't mean fear. And "divinity" really doesn't mean divinity. And...
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Sure doesn't read that way Pete! What do you not understand about "beatest him with the rod"? Does "beatest" not mean hit with something? And the word rod does not mean a stick or staff? As in thy rod and thy staff they comfort me?
A better argument for you Pete would be.... well back in those days people did things differently than we do now and what was once acceptable behavior is no longer.
Like today Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death", is unacceptable and I hope most Christians would reject such an idea, even though it is part of god's perfect book!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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John 15:1-17, “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Anybody seen my bible, I left it here on ST couple of days ago?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Colossians 2:8-10, See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
Matthew 5:17-20, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"As in thy rod and thy staff they comfort me?"
Tom, there are a couple things to perhaps consider - first what you are reading in any bible is a translation. Just because some tranlator chose to translate a certain Hebrew word into a certain word in English doesn't mean that the English word is the final say. If you want to understand what the writer was trying to say, then you need to look at the root word. In your example from Proverbs above, the root word from which "rod" is translated more likely refers metaphorically to corrective discipline in a loving way, as a loving father disciplines his children, and not necessarily striking someone.
Secondly, just because you choose two verses that sort of sound the same, from two different places, doesn't mean they have anthing to do with each other.
Furthermore, I think you might be missing the bit about the rod and staff from the 23rd psalm. The whole psalm is a profession of joyful trust in the Lord as the good shepherd-king. Back in the day, the term "shepherd" was widely used as a metaphor for kings in the Near East, and also in Israel. So here the Psalmist, probably David, acknowledges that the Lord is his shepherd-king. I like the bit where he says that "he makes me lie down in green pastures", because sheep only lie down when they feel contented and secure.
Now in this case, the "rod" isn't just an instrument of the shepherd-king's authority, it is also something used by shepherds for counting, guiding, rescuing and protecting their sheep. Hence the comfort.
Now your quote from Exodus about not working on the Sabbath is something I am sure many non-Christians [and lots of Christians] can find perplexing. Basically, the idea is that when you are a Christian, you are saved by faith and get to live in grace, rather than under the law. But understanding which laws no longer apply [you get to eat bacon] and which laws still do [that shalt not kill] can be mystifying part.
Yeah, HFCS, "fear" doesn't really mean fear. Fear is the word the translators used, but it is more accurately translated as a loving respect and reverence and trust kinda thing.
Cheers,
PTL & PTP Pete
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Trying to explain that this part of the bible is literal, but this part is metaphor, and this part is no longer relevant because of Jesus (nevermind what it says about the nature of your god that it once was relevant), and topping it all off by insisting that said bible is a divinely inspired book and therefore an infallible source, can leave you looking like this picture of Pete . . .
. . . of course the clusters Pete creates on El Cap would make him look this way even if he weren't a christian . . .
Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Hey! That looks just like one of my belays!
Who ever said the bible is infalliable?
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Mark 6:12, So they went out and proclaimed that people should repent.
Acts 4:12, And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name (Jesus) under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Job 3:4
If a woman does float she is a witch.
JDF
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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since peganmonkeyboy posted up that Deuteronomy poster.... good call PMB.. I hadn't read to that point in Deut!
I was checking out how similar Deuteronomy 7 was to what I understand is the one thing we all seem to hate about those who believe in Islam... "Kill the infidels, or convert them..."
Can any of the biblical folks here tell me the difference between the two?
personally, I don't like either:
In one instance, I understand that the kill or convert was used to bring down a WTC tower or two...
In another instance Deut 7 was used to virtually oblitorate an entire population of native peoples just north of the US border (still happening, just really quitely, from what I understand)...
And what about the aboriginal peoples of Australia... though here, again, I have limited understanding of its wonderful history, I do know that the oblitoration of the native peoples were basically called for by the governments understanding and interpratation of the bible...
hence, my suspicion of anyone who states that they believe.. do they believe it all? And of course, any good, moral human, would say that they don't agree with how others are interpreting and using the bible for their own profit/persuasions and influence...
But come on... Isn't that the whole idea of having a bible so that you can base your religion on it?
Some will say "there are many good things in the bible, we can't just throw it all away because of how a rotten few are using the book".. I say yes, I can throw it all away just because of how a rotten few are using the bible.. just like I can throw away any other book that is used as the basis for a rotten few's actions.
It makes much more sense to me to live ones life according to some rules that make sense (checking Ed's short list of does and dont's, could do us all some good) and then chuck the rest as redundant chatter from ages ago that no long have any real application (how many of you true believers checked your wifes virginity check box before you got married?).
Sorry if this flies in the face of your beliefs, but it makes more sense that we humans have a limited time to spend our lives on. Focusing all ones attention on one religion or another seems to me to be.. wasteful.
I understand that this may seem somewhat selfish....
What, other than selfish, is your life? You can say that you do everything you do for others.. but even there, someone can easily say you do it for your own reasons (one feeds the homeless because as a youth they experienced a period of homelessness... but when it comes down to it.. this brings this one some form of happiness.. and that can be a selfish action.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Matthew 8:18-22, Now when Jesus saw a crowd around him, he gave orders to go over to the other side. 19 And a scribe came up and said to him, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.” 20 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.” 21 Another of the disciples said to him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” 22 And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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JaunDeFuca- "Job 3:4 "If a women does float she is a witch."
??
"May that day be darkness;
May God above not seek it,
Nor the light shine upon it." Job 3:4
Job was speaking of the day of his birth!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil." John 3:19.
Yes Jingy, selfishness is often what it boils down to...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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John 1:29-34, The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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so let me get this straight - if i telepathically ask a zombie for forgiveness for all the bad things I want to do, and eat his flesh, I'm golden ?
and no one sees this as sorta weird, or a scam perpetuated by the power hungry over the weak minded ? the whole 'you have original sin just by being born and only we can save you' doesn't look just a little suspicious to anyone else ? anyone ?
and the true reward only comes after you are dead - yeah that can't possibly be a scam...
it's ok to be scared, people. but don't be hoodwinked...you have brains for a reason, it seems weird to me that the creator would ask you to not use them as part of the path to salvation...i mean it's the tree of knowledge for a reason, right ?
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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TripL7 - Not sure I see the relevance to my statements....
I wont give it too much thought though..
Good luck with that..
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Romans 1:18-21, For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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you have brains for a reason
Um, Tom, I think we were given brains so that the zombie would have something to eat. Or maybe I misunderstood. Are you saying that we should actually use our brains to think? Isn't that wrong?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jingy- "Not sure I see the relevance to my statement"
Jingy- "What, other than selfish, is your life?"
I was simply agreeing with your premise that our motives, however altruistic they may seem, usually have selfish motives!
I should have put the bible verse, John 3:19, after my statement of agreement to you in regards to mans selfish motives.
EDIT: Actually I should have just made to separate posts, one to your statement in regards to selfishness and my agreeing to it. And the second post for John 3:16(it was late and i was tired).
John 3:19 is more about man not wanting his darkness/sin being exposed to the light.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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ya know what's funny ? i'm nice to people because i think people should be nice to each other, not for any reward after this shell is done moving...there's no motive, no payoff other than that i feel it's the right thing to do because it elicits pleasure and good energy from people, and good is better than evil (geeeee sounds a lil like god and devil, don't it...go figure...) i don't lie, cheat, or steal, i treat people like i'd want them to do to me, i try to be modest and not ostentatious or wasteful...
no jesus allah budda, no god or goddess needed...just people willing to be nice to each other and not selfish pricks...see also the healthcare debate ;-)
and no - i don't have to be promised a reunion with the dead souls i have known, or eternal bliss/torture...all i had to do was look in my heart and know the measure of humanity, and trust that i know right from wrong...i could go into the math, about how it's wrong to kill someone even though you want to because the pain they feel is greater than the pleasure you would garner in my universe, but i would think you would get the picture...
it saddens me greatly that we need to cling to such things as religion so desperately that we will kill and die for the lies sitting on top of the truths religion was supposed to help us find...spirituality is about our place in the universe, while religion just seems to be a 'my tribe is better than your tribe' type of thing...i never knew jesus was such a snob...
if you know what life is worth, you would look for yours on earth...
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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pagan...!
I applaud you in your humanistic efforts and seflesness.
Regardless, I do believe I inserted "often" or "usually" before my premise!!
I believe we have all been given a conscience by our Maker.
As for your other discrepancies with my beliefs, few of them define me!
I don't do them for a reward etc. I often times do them out of love for Someone who rescued me some 50+ years ago from certain death. It has taken all of that 50+ years to get to personally know Him, and His love for the lost. Although I knew in an instant(50+ years ago)that He was/is God.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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TripL7 - oh, sorry,.. not reading it like that.. My bad...
Yes.. we are in agreement on this.
(separate story)
Another thing entirely..
I was thinking today (it almost never happens) of an email I had received from a friend/co-worker....
SO, the email was a foreign Candid Camera video.
The gist:
A nun (dressed as a nun - penguin suit, god love beads, and bible in hand and all) stops strangers and asks a question (direction?) of the strangers. To which she gets a response and moves on.
Simple enough, but after she says thank you/donka/garcias.. as she shuffles off, something falls from within her bible.
It is literature with a very clear message. Males, in the nude, stretched out and sprawling across a bed, sofa or else in another provocative pose.
Having dropped the goods and scuffled off, the unsuspecting passersby look down to see the clear pornographic nature of the literature and are at a loss as to what to do.. and sometimes have looks that do illicit some laughter in the viewer (us), if only because we (the viewers) know its a fix.
Here is my question:
Why wouldn't the people simply grab the goods, run to the nun and hand the stuff back?
Possible answer: Because its a nun. And we have more respect for them than anyone else in uniform, and the possibility of being publicly humiliated (for either party) seems a bit drastic given the nature of the situation.
That in a nutshell puts them in a better place than the rest of us. (or, at least this was my thinking for the longest time)
My real question is this:
It used to be that I would instantly have respect for a priest, or a nun, or a bishop, or a whatever name you call whatever person of whatever religion you might be thinking of.... If someone said they were a rabbi, I would take that to be an indication of how I should behave around them. But, this didn't just go for those wearing the cloth.. When people introduced themselves as Jehovah witness, Mormon, catholic in training, what-have-you, I would behave in a way that I wouldn't when I was around my friends. With friends I was loose with the language, around these people, I clam up, don't cuss, and generally adhere to a respectable manner. As I was thinking everyone else did, and does today.
I no longer feel that this is right thinking.
I think that folks should get get my respect after/when they've shown me that they are respectable.
This implies that I have the ability to discern respectability within someone else, outside myself, when I can never really, truly know what another person has in mind. Unless it is on display for all the world to see there is no way to know, is there?
I don't have to know the Dalai Lama personally to know that I might have respect for him if I were to speak to him in person. As there is an overwhelming mountain of evidence that indicate to me that this is a person whom I can respect.
One priest lives a life in perfect service to his lord, yet chases children around the rectory.
One nun lives a life of perfect service to her lord, yet verbally, physically, or mentally abuses and traumatizes children at the boarding school.
In either of these situations, we, as the outsider (meaning, we are not the priests or nuns described above) have to take everything at face value, until we are confronted with facts to the contrary.
I guess I should have fallen asleep during that philosophy class, or never picked up that philosophy book, or should have listened to that MIT professor give the lectures on philosophy.... or maybe just kept my head down and never asked questions.....
Now I have a headache.......
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jingy!
Not sure if this helps, but like the Pharisees who liked to be seen and respected in public, got their reward here on earth.
But the poor old widow who gave her last penny got her reward in heaven.
Those priests etc. that you speak of are not getting away with anything.
I try and treat everyone the same.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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i'm gonna start posting my trip reports to religious forums...if that don't put the fear of god in them, nothing will...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Proverbs 9:7-12, Whoever corrects a scoffer gets himself abuse,
and he who reproves a wicked man incurs injury.
8 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you;
reprove a wise man, and he will love you.
9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser;
teach a righteous man, and he will increase in learning.
10***The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight***.
11 For by me your days will be multiplied,
and years will be added to your life.
12 If you are wise, you are wise for yourself;
if you scoff, you alone will bear it.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"
that alone tells me all I need to know about the validity of this religion.
I don't have to fear my maker...nor eat him/her/it, actually...
so you are all a bunch of terrified cannibals ? and this somehow saves you from the same fate as the rest of us ? what am I missing here...
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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didn't this god dude create the trap that ended up requiring his son's death in the first place ? wouldn't a smarter god have forseen this contingency when he put the tree of knowledge in the garden ?
this god you speak of - he seems less than omnipotent to me...
and why is he banging someone else's wife ? isn't that against a commandment ?
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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peganmonkeyboy - "i'm gonna start posting my trip reports to religious forums..."
Good call....
Let's see how inclusive their forum is of the OT thread!!!!
BWAHAHAHHA!!!
Too funny
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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TripL7 - You can say that my question of why "we" (I) show respect as an auto-reaction to someone in the cloth is not to say that I have no respect for them.. moreover, I too attempt to treat eveyone the same, until I am shown that they deserve another form of treatment.
yeah.. uhm.. if only all that heaven and earth stuff meant anything to me... it doesn't really when you consider there is no god...
once the idea is removed from the conversation, things may look a little different: All people are equal, across the board.. even my enemy is my equal when the god issue/statement is removed.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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PMB - "and why is he banging someone else's wife ? isn't that against a commandment ?"
Well.. I.. uhm... think.. that's what they tell me...
BWAHAHAHAHA
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Gobee
Trad climber
Upward Bound Col. 1:19-20 Grace By Faith
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Mar 10, 2010 - 12:23am PT
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Mark 6:11, And if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them.”
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Mar 10, 2010 - 01:40am PT
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paganmonkeychild!
You have all these rhetorical questions, obviously you only desire to insult and blaspheming and curse, to gain some credibility/favor amongst a few...how vain! And how deep your hate of God run's. So I will refrain from giving any more answers.
But i will warn you that there are levels of hell, or degrees of punishment. And i am loathe to say that the majority of those in N. America are going to suffer a much heavier punishment than Sodom and Gomorrah. For S&G had little knowledge of a God/Savior other than their conscious, and their knowledge of right and wrong/good and evil that God gave them, as He does all people. We have full knowledge and warning, numerous churches and bibles and forums etc. At least ten+ times what i had as a youth(60's), actually much, much more.
Remember this verse:
"Whoever does not recieve you, nor heeds your words, as you go out of that house or city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you it will be more tolerant for Sodom and Gommorah in the day of judgment than for that city." Matthew 10:14-15.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 10, 2010 - 02:24am PT
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"Then said Jesus to them Jew's who believed on Him, If ye continue in my word, then ye are my disciples indeed. And ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free!" John 8:31-32
Jesus said himself,
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh unto the father but by Me (capitalized for emphasis)." John 14:6
It's that simple people, Jesus is Truth thus Jesus will make you free! Don't try to figure it out, just accept it and believe and it'll change your life. To those that don't know Christ, you, including myself, were, and continue to be lied to by the world's system.
And remember Christians, Jesus said..."If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." John 15:18
and...
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." Mat 5:11
Let those that don't know Christ express themselves. Don't be offended by them but instead give glory to God for what they don't know for He promises to bless you when they do. It was this very hate that put Jesus on the cross and this very hate that shed His blood, and this very hate that saved us from eternal hell! Glory to God for their hate! Do you see?! Pray for them that they too will need God's grace (getting what we don't deserve) someday!
TripL7, seeing your post just put a smile on my face! Glory to God that there are more Christian climbers than I ever thought! See you at Woodson!
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 10, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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just noticed a typo.
it's all about the
love people.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 13, 2010 - 02:48am PT
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Fellow SuperTopians, my Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
I'm going to take a break from ST. As of late it has been pretty brutal here. I'm not going forever, but I'm going to step back now and take some time.
I enjoy discussing climbing and related adventure. I enjoy contraversial topics. I enjoy talking about GOD, Jesus our Saviour, and reading all the Bible quotes, and discussing the word of GOD and Theology. I really enjoy the science discussions. All of these topics and more are ever present on my mind. There are some really good people here on ST with really good hearts.
However, there are others who are pretty brutal and have no clue about the "The Golden Rule" nor how to agree to disagree without resorting to serious ad hominem attacks and unbelievable immaturity and constant name calling and hurtful comments. It really gets old and tiresome. I have tried never to respond in kind. It's good to debate, but even on a forum we should all be able to abide by common courtesy, decency, and respect.
I have changed coming back to Christ. When I first joined ST I was farther away from GOD than the Prodigal Son. I came back to GOD "and it has made the difference every night and every day." I'm glad he took me back. And I do not want to leave GOD ever again. Fellow Christians here on ST have certainly had an impact on me posting the word of GOD, and discussing all manor of related topics. Thank you.
Illusiondweller (Gary),
I'm going to bow out from the Woodson Shin Dig also. It should be a wonderful event for those who attend. I was looking forward to it. But I don't really want to run into hate and any abuse from anyone. Not feeling the love right now. You have planned a great event, great looking t-shirt, and the party should be fun too. Have a great time everyone.
My beloved Woodson will always be there for me. I wouldn't mind sharing that experience with those here on ST who love Christ sometime. That would be really cool. I enjoy Woodson with my friends or going it alone sometimes too. It is good to get out alone sometimes in the "Wilderness" and think about things . . .
In Christ's love,
Glenn
(aka Klimmer)
Larry Norman - 1990 - Diamonds, One way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgEIY0ARrpE&feature=related
Rev.22 (KJV)
[1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
[2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
[3] And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
[4] And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
[5] And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
[6] And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
[7] Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
[8] And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
[9] Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
[10] And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
[11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
[13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
[16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
[20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Mar 13, 2010 - 04:24am PT
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PMB: Keep it coming, dude. I'm collecting all your priceless thoughts together into an anthology I will use for an upcoming Intro to Philosophy class I teach.
Your posts are such rich examples of straw-man fallacies, ad hominem fallacies, guilt by association fallacies, drive-by attacks, and intentional ignorance! I can teach the fallacies section using your examples alone.
Your abject lack of intellectual honesty shines like a beacon attracting other moths to its mind-searing flame. Keep the fire burning!
I want more material. More, more, more!
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Mar 13, 2010 - 11:24am PT
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"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight." Proverbs 3:5-6
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Mar 13, 2010 - 01:00pm PT
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abject lack of intellectual honesty ? now that's something you don't hear every day...
our place in the universe is scary. it's ok to be scared...
do aliens go to hell ? aliens on other planets - would they go to heaven and hell too ?
all i want is rational acceptance of the true nature of our place in the universe. no ghost stories, no threats or rewards in the afterlife - Here and Now, people. Here and now...
if you are going to call me a liar let's see you refute my points -
1) christianity is based on a cannibalistic ritual
2) it's also passive aggressive - the whole love your enemies so they will suffer more in hell thing is kinda PA, don't ya think ? i'm gonna love you now so god will burn you for eternity ?
3) the whole tree of knowledge is a thinly veiled instruction to not question the tales you are told by the people that can save you...
4) original sin is the way you are trapped into a religion from birth and through no fault of your own - seems god's just a little petty there too, eh ?
you wanna post this sh#t on a climbing site - that's fine. bring your f*#king A game, as#@&%es, or i will sit here and rip you a new one all day long. All I want is the truth - Not Lies designed to deceive the meek and foolish...
Why do you need a god to tell you how to be nice to each other ? Answer that one, bitches...
hugs all around...
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Mar 13, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
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is ghandi in hell ? pretty sure he wasn't baptized...
elvis ? is elvis in hell ? what about jimmi hendrix ? plato ? Homer ?
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Mar 13, 2010 - 01:33pm PT
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all i want is rational acceptance of the true nature of our place in the universe
PMB: Do you have any idea what that might be? I have been thinking about that question this morning, about all I can think of is that we are at the top of the food chain (at least in this part of our universe).
What is it with all the animosity and anger? It doesn't lend to your credibility. Save it for something that is a real threat to you.
Try living and let live; or at least consider this: if you are going to speak of Ghandi, Elvis or Hendrix you might consider the fact that they weren't quite as angry at the world as you are and Elvis is a bad example, he was a Christian.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Mar 13, 2010 - 01:58pm PT
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i'm angry because this is just one of the many reasons the world is the way it is and millions suffered and suffer for it when IT DOESN"T HAVE TO BE LIKE THIS.
that's what i don't get - how any sane person can see what is fully happening everywhere every single day, what has happened throughout history, and not get just a little angry...we SUCK in some serious ways as a race...boy howdy we just plain talk a good game but we are all hat no cattle...
maybe if more people got pissed we'd stop letting kids die every few minutes in f*#king 2010 (oo - there goes another...) because we can't make any money saving them...
the world is f*#ked, and we should be pissed. anger is a motivator.
and i've decided i will no longer suffer fools and evildoers...the time to speak up and call them out has long since passed...
plus - dude...this is a climbing website. go start a political thread, will ya ?
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nita
Social climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
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Mar 13, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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Pagan, Ouch once posted this line when people were dissing christians.
" Everyone has their own way of trying to cope & hold their sanity. Every moment is different for every person & situation."
That line is spot on when i think about my parents turning toward Christianity to cope with their son dying in VietNam . At that time there was no avenues to help families with their grief and turning to God helped them survive.
I don't live my life like my parents, but i do believe in trying to be respectful.. I don't always succeed..
ps..Love you Pagan....;-)
pss.. dknow put up my favorite bible quote....tatts the truth..
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Mar 13, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
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I don't quite follow the rationale for the anger... especially in light of saving kids or people's beliefs. But that's o.k... I don't think you understand what I am trying to say. Anger doesn't solve much and trust me it will make you old way before your time... I ain't the enemy dude!
As far the posting goes, you have a lot more posts to this thread than I do and not many of your recent posts have anything to do with climbing (except on people's back).
I didn't start the thread; if you want it to go away quit posting on it.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Mar 13, 2010 - 07:18pm PT
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nita you realize you're asking me to respect a religion that will see me and most of the people i respect the most burning in hell for all eternity because we don't want to be sheep, and think the rest of the flock is being fleeced...
no one's refuted any of my points yet I notice...
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Mar 13, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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that's fine. bring your f*#king A game, as#@&%es, or i will sit here and rip you a new one all day long
Why do you need a god to tell you how to be nice to each other ?
I don't really need God for that...but clearly you need someone or something to convince you of the need!
It is difficult for me not to try to persuade you to chill; but arguing isn't really my thing. I don't understand why you are ranting about favorite Bible quotes and deaths of innocent children and the other problems of 2010. I can understand why these problems upset you... they upset everyone (or should).
That is about for me...
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Chinchen
climber
Anacortes, wa
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Mar 13, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
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Shut the f*#k up and go climbing.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Mar 13, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
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still awaiting a point by point refutation of my enumeration...
and dude - he called me a few names with absolutely no substantial arguments - he wants to play as#@&%e, I call as#@&%e ;-)
packets of love your way my friend...seriously...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 13, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
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What are you basing your spiritual beliefs on?
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Mar 13, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
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My sincerest apologies! I thought all the name calling was directed at me; and I sincerely appreciate the kindness of your "packets".
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nita
Social climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
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Mar 13, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
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Just got home, I have no stomach for fighting...
The Christian in your face bible yellers drive me crazy ....just as much as the Christian haters..
Wish we could respect each other a bit more...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 13, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
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I think one of the real pitfalls of the quest is to think or believe that if you have never had any kind of spiritual experience, then that is proof that one doesn't exist. Ergo, if I've never been to a place called Yosemite, and have never actually put my hands on El Cap and felt it and so forth, then it doesn't exist.
And you'd be right about that, for without the experience itself, "it" is merely an idea, a feeling, a sensation, a phantom, a cruel lie . . .
But don't stop there. That's just the first pitch.
JL
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jstan
climber
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Mar 13, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
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JL:
Your El Cap simile does not work. You show someone a picture of it and they will say, "Cool. someday I want to go there."
Give us a photo pf god. Oh we'll also need an e-addy. Need to schedule a water walking demo.
Now you are talking.
In the meantime I don't know whether a god exists.
I have noticed however it does not seem to make any difference whether one exists or not.
So, no problem.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 13, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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When I see bear tracks, I don't need to see a photo of the bear to know it's around somewhere.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Mar 13, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
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Nita - "The Christian in your face bible yellers drive me crazy ....just as much as the Christian haters..
Wish we could respect each other a bit more..."
True.... I wish I could be as open minded as others...
But when you are living in a world where something like this can really be thought up and enacted?
Utah Abortion Bill: Punishing Miscarriages or Preventing Crime?
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/utah-abortion-bill-punishing-miscarriages-preventing-crime/story?id=9955517
I'm afraid I cannot subscribe to the "get along" idea.....
From a personal perspective abortion, miscarriages and multiple pregnancies cannot really effect me.. I will never have to make that decision.
But, once someone has walked the mile in her shoes, then they may be able to better understand her plight.
Is this really what being religious is about?
Controlling others? - (I have to say.. this is what if feels like)
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nita
Social climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
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Mar 13, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
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Jingy, i am mainly talking about having a adult conversation ...without the name calling.
edit:Jingy, this fall- facelift, same conversation...in person...real campfire..
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Chinchen
climber
Anacortes, wa
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Mar 14, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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Or we could stick to talking about climbing. Politics and religion have been the death of many an online forum, Im about ready to give up on this one too.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 14, 2010 - 01:02am PT
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JL:
Your El Cap simile does not work. You show someone a picture of it and they will say, "Cool. someday I want to go there."
-
John, you're thinking in terms of a materialist, but so be it. Let me state it differently.
If someone has a direct experience, that experience becomes a part of that person's life. If they don't have a direct experience, they must fall back to ideas, feelings, sensations, and so forth. Lacking the direct experience, people will often insist that the aforementioned ideas (beliefs), feelings, sensations are the experience I mentioned. Not the case at all . . .
JL
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 14, 2010 - 06:26am PT
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In the midst of enemy territory, I have come to finally realize that it is/was the enemies very hate that crucified Jesus Christ, and this very hate that saved my soul from spending eternity in hell when I leave this world. So, this helps me have compassion for those that don't understand. It's okay for those to hate for "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." (John 15:18) For those that hate in this thread, Glory to God! And for you Christians, God promises to bless you as you defend His name; "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." (Matthew 5:11) What a God!
Remember Christians, in your eyes, it's not about you! "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Nothing was mentioned about loving yourself in that passage. You are just a vessel that God uses to love Him and to take His word and to turn and pass it on to others. Don't hang on to His Word for if you do you will inevitably turn it into pride and God hates pride, "The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate." (Proverbs 8:13) Instead, turn and give it to others. When you are feeling empty, low, and need more, you are right where He wants you to be. Turn back to God to get replenished and keep the cycle going. It's all about Him and to help others see His love as well.
The biblical defintion of Love: the willing, sacrificial giving of oneself, for the benefit of another, with no thought of return." By doing this we accomplish the reason we are here on this earth, to be conformed to the image of Christ; "And we know that all things work together for good (this doesn't apply to everyone, as the cliche' goes, "it's all good" but) to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Romans 8:28-29)
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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Mar 14, 2010 - 08:20am PT
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Are the threads about guitars, Econolines, Unexpected Photos, longboards, stitches, socialism, music causing the same death to the forum? Or is it the expression of values that you personally disagree with?
I don't see posted complaints i.e. insults and rudeness there; just nice pictures, compliments being exchanged, and pleasant conversation. No one arguing about whether they exist or not, appropriateness, etc.
If you don't have any interest in a topic, don't post on it; if you can't resist be polite. Insulting people, especially the ones you know personally, is really whacked.
One last point, just because people have found Christianity and the Bible to be something that works for them, doesn't mean they back certain oppressive governmental ideologies, platforms or parties.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7wEctHyuc0&feature=related
Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens) ~ Peace Train
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Mar 15, 2010 - 01:06am PT
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One problem you've got PMB is that you have lumped ALL of Christianity into one package, without the slightest attempt to recognize ANY nuances of believe systems within it.
I, for example, do not believe in eternally burning hellfire, the eating of the literal flesh of Christ (cannibalism), original sin, that a Christian cannot question (I have a Ph.D. in philosophy, trained entirely in secular institutions, such as UC Santa Barbara), etc., etc. But you prefer to straw-man "Christianity" rather than to take seriously that many highly intelligent, extremely well-educated people are Christians; AND that not all Christians are Roman Catholics (the flavor of Christianity from which your spree of "Christian" claims is derived).
I did not "call you names." Instead I merely pointed out the obvious fact that you have evidenced again and again on this thread: You show that you don't care AT ALL about truth; you merely take perverse pleasure in drive-by shootings at Christians. Then, when I call you on it, you go ballistic, clearly evidencing, as another poster pointed out, that you yourself need someone to explain to you why to be moral and "nice" even when you don't agree with somebody. The very attitude and responses YOU engage in ARE the root of the world's problems that you claim are the result of Christianity.
You are hung on your own petard; your OWN reactions to my post speak volumes about you.
I have nothing to reply to your "questions" because I do not hold the positions you claim "Christians" do. I am a Christian, but you clearly know nothing about me or other Christians like me. Nor do you care to. It's much easier to simply straw-man "Christianity" and blame it for all the world's ills. That perspective of yours DOES make you a demonstrably superficial, fallacious, and careless thinker.
Ok, now you may feel free to yet again call ME names and level all the epithets you wish. Hung on your own petard.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 15, 2010 - 01:27am PT
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Hi, Richard. Good response. You gonna put on your rusted old POS wings of steel and fly out to Yosemite this spring and say hi?
I'm with Illusion Dweller.
Cheers,
PTL and PTP Pete
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Mar 15, 2010 - 01:49am PT
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Hi, Pete!
I would LOVE to get a week off in mid-summer to drop into the trench and check things out and see YOU! As always, the spirit is willing (and eager), but the flesh usually has too many other pressing commitments. But I need it! Dana needs it!
If the flesh doesn't make it, at least know that the spirit is with you.
Best!
Richard
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jstan
climber
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Mar 15, 2010 - 02:11am PT
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Where has there been hate on ST? People being PO'd isn't hate. You can't hate someone whose only flaw is they don't agree with you.
On being in enemy territory:
Even though he was surrounded by Union troops in numbers two or three times his own, R.E.Lee called them, "those people." Kept his mind unconfused and out of an emotional state. Call your adversary "gooks" and someone will begin thinking they are also stupid. Bad idea. Lee tried to understand his adversaries, so he could predict what they would do and why. Which he did in fact do.
So when you have someone who disagrees with you, try to understand what they are thinking. Lee was no dummy.
Here's what I think is going on here. Some of us feel in many ways that life is like floating down a river in a canoe. Where the water goes you go. The water rocks you, provides music and takes complete care of you.
Unfortunately there are other people furiously paddling upstream. some even getting out where it is shallow and manhauling their boats upstream. Their simple presence disturbs your river, goes against everything you know. And is just simply WRONG.
To understand why they are there you would have to get out of your canoe, break your reverie
and actually listen to what they are saying.
But that's a lot of bother. You are absolutely certain you are right so there is no need.
The people struggling upstream have seen that river in spring flood. Spring flood is not just some random event you wail over if it drowns your children. They are going upstream to a lake where they can safely winter. And then continue their journey after the flood.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 15, 2010 - 05:25am PT
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jstan,
HATE, v.t. [L. odi, for hodi.]
1. To dislike greatly; to have a great aversion to. It expresses less than abhor, detest, and abominate, unless pronounced with a peculiar emphasis.
How long will fools hate knowledge? Prov 1.
Blessed are ye when men shall hate you. Luke 6.
The Roman tyrant was contented to be hated, if he was but feared.
2. In Scripture, it signifies to love less.
If any man come to me, and hate not father and mother, etc. Luke 14.
He that spareth the rod, hateth his son. Prov 13.
Not everyone's aversion to this post is great but I would conclude with some reasonable accuracy that there is less than love in some of them. The above definition was derived from the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary for it is considered to be one of the most biblicaly accurate dictionaries ever made and this is why I incorporate it when I study the Bible.
I understand how, "enemy territory" could be taken out of context but it is referring to satan and the world for satan is the little "g", god of this world, "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." - 2Corinthians 4:4. And, really, I am not battling with those that contest this post, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. "- Ephesians 6:12.
You see, it's a spiritual battle not physical. Before I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal saviour I walked according to this world, "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: " - Ephesians 2:2.
Satan's spirit is working IN those that aren't saved! "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." - 1John 4:3.
But even I am not immune for he oppresses me (outside pressure) every day! He can't "possess" me anymore for the Spirit of God lives in me now. And as a matter of fact, I don't even own myself! "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." 1 Cor 6:19-20.
There's no name calling intentions in my responses for like I said earlier, "It's all about Him and to help others see His love as well."
more later...
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Mar 15, 2010 - 11:32am PT
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I've changed my name I'm undercover in witness protection;
Matthew 10:26-33, “So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 15, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
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Illusiondweller: Satan's spirit is working IN those that aren't saved!
Oh, the irony!
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
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Mar 15, 2010 - 01:37pm PT
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Thou shalt not revile against other supertopo posters that revile against you.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 15, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
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Reformers Unanimous International
Friday, 7pm., March 12th 2010
Third Talk
Key Verses: John 17:14-19
14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Christian Prayer: Heavenly father we do thank thee Lord God for this day, and for many of us who are not only sober from substances Lord, we're not only praising you that we don't use drugs, we're not just praising you because we're not drinking, we're not just praising you because of that, but we're praising you because you have changed us on the inside, not just the outside but the inside. And Lord, we thank you for the transformation work that you're doing on the inside of us because our strongholds have never been our problem. The problem has been how we think on the inside, the way we feel about things and how we let the world system take and influence us Lord. So, we've been living a lie, we haven't been living the Truth. Our strongholds are just a consequence, the result and the symptoms of a behavior problem that we have and the result of the way we think. Lord, we need a transformation on the inside, we don't just need to stop gossiping, we don't just need to stop overeating, we don't just need to stop going to the wrong website, we need you to fix us on the inside so those things aren't an issue anymore. We thank you for it in Jesus' name, Amen.
"Did you hear that? Drug's aren't your problem, alcohol is not your problem, gossiping is not your problem, overeating is not the problem, going to the wrong website is not your problem, they are just symptoms of the real problem. The real problem is that I didn't know how to deal with rejection and because of that I went to a drink, or I went to a drug or maybe I didn't know how to deal with the resentment or bitterness or the unforgiving spirit I had towards my parents, or friends or relatives or I wasn't treated fair. A lot of times when things do not go the way we think they should go we find ourselves going to substances, or websites and different things of that nature, which are not our problem, our problem is that I need to change on the inside. The problem is there needs to be a transformation going on in my mind, the way I think.
That can be a hard pill for some to swallow when you've been told all your life, "it's your fault, it's their fault, it's not your fault, you're just a product of this or a product of that." True, many of us are or have been a product of sin, a product of child abuse, a product of teenage pregnancy, a product of alcohol abuse, a product of drug addiction; but when does it stop?! When do we stop blaming them and take responsibility and accountability and say, "Hey, I don't want to live like that, I can move forward. I can't just keep blaming those things, or for my behaviour or for my response. At some point I have to take responsibility for my own life and I have to allow God to help me to live the life that He has chosen for me to live."
more to come...
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Mar 15, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
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At some point I have to take responsibility for my own life...
Okay to stop right there. Nothing more is needed, unless you choose it. And no need to push any more onto anyone else, unless they choose it.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 15, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
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cintune -- "Okay to stop right there."
So you're pushing your agenda also, as passive aggressive .....
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Chinchen
climber
Anacortes, wa
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Mar 15, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
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F*#K F*#K F*#K F*#K F*#K F*#K F*#K F*#K. sHUT THE HELL UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SATAN TOLD ME TO DO IT.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 15, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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Cintune...you left out the most important part of the sentence which just happens to be what the world is trying to eliminate to this day.
Edit: Cintune and everyone else...just to let you know, I'm not just a punk kid who's bent on trying to push something on anyone. I just happen to be a 47 year old climber myself and have belonged to a Christ centered addiction/behavior modification program for the past 2 1/2 years. I ended up in jail over a porn addiction and now feel I can make a difference in someone elses life before they end up where I did. This may not be for you but I'm hoping to reach, even just one, before they hurt themselves and those in their lives like I did. I'm not going back to the spoon that fed me, I can't, and I won't.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Mar 15, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
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Yep, I'm pushing an agenda, but I don't start these threads and I don't bump them to the top either unless they're already above the fold. The bottom line for me is that it's a choice, just like deciding to climb free, pound pins, pull on pro, or free solo. You can attach ethical judgements to these things and tell everyone what you think they ought to do, but it's still just a choice, and taking personal accountability is all that matters in the end, however you want to dress it up.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 15, 2010 - 09:25pm PT
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ID:
May I make a suggestion?
The great majority of the people here, who went through your phase, are either long dead or have been OK for a long time. What you are doing is largely misdirected and so is simply inefficient. My last four years here at ST have led me to believe this.
Surely there are many other opportunities to do effective and direct face to face volunteer work along these lines.
That said we do appreciate the intent behind your actions.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 15, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
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"Surely there are many other opportunities to do effective and direct face to face volunteer work along these lines."
I'm involved in this as well...thanks for the suggestions though. Since Christians are definitely the minority in this world, I'm going to say there are plenty out there that can benefit from this whether it's online or in person.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 15, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
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...as far as "effective and direct face to face volunteer work"...I have to disagree for most advertising and sales is a "direct" result of "indirect" advertising such as media commercials, ad's, internet and other forms of indirect promotional advertising. I, for one, found Reformers Unanimous International via a banner that was posted out front of Mainland Baptist Church in Galloway, New Jersy in '07. I attend to this day here in San Diego county at the Lemon Grove chapter.
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mar 15, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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and it was night.
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Mar 16, 2010 - 12:50am PT
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John 8:34-36, Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
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hagerty
Social climber
A Sandy Area South of a Salty Lake
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Mar 16, 2010 - 01:07am PT
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What is this "bible" thing you speak of?
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 16, 2010 - 01:24am PT
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It's spelled, "Bible"
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 16, 2010 - 01:27am PT
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Locker, locker, locker...got your attention did it?
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Mar 17, 2010 - 04:09pm PT
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Matthew 18:10-14, “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven. 12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
Chinchen that's TOURETTE'S
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Mar 18, 2010 - 08:52am PT
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Psalm 48:14, For such is God, Our God forever and ever; He will guide us until death.
(2drfloc0318) http://www.gty.org/
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Mar 19, 2010 - 01:01am PT
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Romans 11:33-36, Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Mar 19, 2010 - 01:34am PT
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Gary- "True story, Abraham father of three faiths married his sister." According to your link to "Betty Bowers Explains..."
Truly pathetic lie! She(and you)should try opening and reading the Bible.
"Terah took Abram(Abraham)his son... and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram's wife;" Genesis 11:31.
Just another pure lie out there to lower the credibility of the Bible.
I would take this into consideration;
"I testify to everyone who here's the word's of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;" Revelation 22:18.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Mar 19, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
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On March 14th the Discovery channel did a story on "Who Framed Jesus?"
the history of the 7 days leading to Christs death. Did anybody watch this? Besides a commercial every five minutes, I thought the Discovery Channel did a good job with the show.
It lined up all of the Gospels and showed the differences between the writings and gave philosophies on what really happened and why. All of the information shown was taken directly from the Bible. It definately answered some of my questions on why the Gospel writings differed which all pertained to the same event. I thought the show was really good.
Did anybody else watch this?
Keep happy! Rock on!
In the name of Jesus!
Marty
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Mar 20, 2010 - 08:53am PT
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1 John 1:9,If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Mar 21, 2010 - 10:45am PT
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Psalm 50,
A Psalm of Asaph.
1 The Mighty One, God the Lord,
speaks and summons the earth
from the rising of the sun to its setting.
2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty,
God shines forth.
3 Our God comes; he does not keep silence;
before him is a devouring fire,
around him a mighty tempest.
4 He calls to the heavens above
and to the earth, that he may judge his people:
5 “Gather to me my faithful ones,
who made a covenant with me by sacrifice!”
6 The heavens declare his righteousness,
for God himself is judge! Selah
7 “Hear, O my people, and I will speak;
O Israel, I will testify against you.
I am God, your God.
8 Not for your sacrifices do I rebuke you;
your burnt offerings are continually before me.
9 I will not accept a bull from your house
or goats from your folds.
10 For every beast of the forest is mine,
the cattle on a thousand hills.
11 I know all the birds of the hills,
and all that moves in the field is mine.
12 “If I were hungry, I would not tell you,
for the world and its fullness are mine.
13 Do I eat the flesh of bulls
or drink the blood of goats?
14 Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving,
and perform your vows to the Most High,
15 and call upon me in the day of trouble;
I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me.”
16 But to the wicked God says:
“What right have you to recite my statutes
or take my covenant on your lips?
17 For you hate discipline,
and you cast my words behind you.
18 If you see a thief, you are pleased with him,
and you keep company with adulterers.
19 “You give your mouth free rein for evil,
and your tongue frames deceit.
20 You sit and speak against your brother;
you slander your own mother's son.
21 These things you have done, and I have been silent;
you thought that I was one like yourself.
But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you.
22 “Mark this, then, you who forget God,
lest I tear you apart, and there be none to deliver!
23 The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies me;
to one who orders his way rightly
I will show the salvation of God!”
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:03am PT
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Proverbs 21:21, Whoever pursues righteousness and kindness
will find life, righteousness, and honor.
Proverbs 21:30, No wisdom, no understanding, no counsel
can avail against the Lord.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 22, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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Now this is powerful!...
1 Peter 2:
19 - For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Mar 22, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
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Romans 1:16-17, For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:12am PT
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Proverbs 22:7, The rich rules over the poor,
and the borrower is the slave of the lender.
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Mar 24, 2010 - 08:50am PT
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Proverbs 24:10-12, If you faint in the day of adversity,
your strength is small.
11 Rescue those who are being taken away to death;
hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter.
12 If you say, “Behold, we did not know this,”
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it,
and will he not repay man according to his work?
Matthew 12:18-21, “Behold, my servant whom I have chosen,
my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased.
I will put my Spirit upon him,
and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
19 He will not quarrel or cry aloud,
nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets;
20 a bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not quench,
until he brings justice to victory;
21 and in his name the Gentiles will hope.”
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hossjulia
Social climber
Eastside
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Mar 28, 2010 - 11:36am PT
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All we REALLY need to know, and the basis of Jesus' teachings;
"And God created Man in his image and likeness, and saw it was good, very good."
Now how do we get created in God's image and likeness and be anything but God's ourselves? And don't go lecturing me about that bitch Eve.
The rest of the Bible? A bunch of lost power tripping guys trying to tell everyone else how to live.
It's in Genesis man.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Mar 30, 2010 - 12:17pm PT
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"All this twaddle, the existence of God, atheism, determinism, liberation, societies, death, etc., are pieces of a chess game called language, and they are amusing only if one does not preoccupy oneself with winning or losing this game of chess." -Marcel Duchamp
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Mar 31, 2010 - 10:44am PT
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I Am the True Vine
John 15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
The Hatred of the World
18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. 21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’
26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Mar 31, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
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I know a mouse and he hasn't got a house I don't know why I call him Gerald.
He's getting rather old but he's a good mouse.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Mar 31, 2010 - 11:12pm PT
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i like the part where i'm going to hell because i can see through the lies and y'all can't seem to...
(and madbolter - twice you tell me about your degree...like that's supposed to mean you can tell the difference between fact and fiction ? seems to me that you Can't...and your christianity sounds rather selective at best...one could say i'm also a christian, just one that thinks the bible is a bunch of stories the romans gave the common people so they wouldn't worship the same pantheon the royalty was trying to appease...)
ultimately it is faith - you either take the red pill or the blue one. given that there is a plethora of religions, all believing they have the One True Pipeline to the Divine...well, it would seem anyone capable of critical thought would have to be skeptical.
but this isn't about critical thinking now, is it...
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2
By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Jesus has risen, Happy Easter!
Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2
By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2
By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2
By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"One thing I'll say for him, Jesus is cool."
Jesus' enemy Ciaphas in Jesus Christ Superstar
Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2
By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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John 21:6, Of fishing He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.”
How COOL is that!!!
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Alpinist909
Mountain climber
Chesapeake
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The bible. A book of campfire stories that were written over the 1st 400 years after Jesus. It was copied by scribes, most of which could copy text but who could not read.
Some that had their own interpetations. Much of the time, they copied books for a weathly person or family who could afford it.
Kings and queens changed and added things to their liking.
Full of contradictions.
Many stories borrowed cultures that predated Christianity.
Many rituals that were borrowed from other cultures.
A book that one cultural believes is right and the other 66% of the planet is wrong.
A belief only one culture recieved and ALL the other cultures were left out.
Count the number of god killed (directly or ordered killed). It's around 2.2 million. Wow, that's an angry dude. Oh wait, he created the universe but he has a temper. hmmmm....
Rape is ok. serveral verses on this but you will not hear about those in bible school.
Selling your daughter. there are actual directions.
Oh wait, you can't THAT literally but you do take THIS literally. BLA bla
yes, there are some great ideas to live by in the bible. Some use them and do great things for others in the world. I applaud this. Much good has come from the bible.
BUT I believe as much bad has been done in the name of god. Countries have been taken in the name of god (or their interpetation of their book). Cultures have been whiped of the face of the planet in the name of god.
Over the centuries and generations, how many children have been misunderstood, tortured, beaten, abused, disowned, etc... in the name of religious beliefs by the passionate parents and communties??
We think we are pretty special cretures. So much so that a space man made us, loves us and made us in his "man in the sky" image.
Yet, in the grand sceme of things, we are about as relavent as bateria on a grain of sand at the bottom of the sea. That this GOD would need the love from some of the most brutal, violent, wasteful and destructive creatures that this planet has ever seen. In the very short time we have been on this planet.
Remember that 98% of the creatures that have ever existed on this planet have become extinct.
That this planet can only theoretictly sustain 11.5 billion people. The population has gone from 1 billion to 6.5 billion in 200 years. At that rate, the world population will reach 11.5 in only 70 more years.
During that time, natural resources will become stressed and life will become much more difficult.
So grab yor bibles and committ more genecide in the name of Christianity for the greater good.
Funny how our human nature is to perpetuate ourselves. We do not like the idea of our life just ending one day. So we make up stories to make ourselves not so lonely when our loved ones die. When we die. Humans have been doing it for a million years. So God just recently decided to start talking to us? Wow, he left a lot of souls out of the loop.
Oh.... and Neandertauls(sp?). So did god make a slightly different species of human, in his image, that just did not work out?
I like how that bible only speaks of one region and one culture because, well, some people came up with a book of ideas. Marketed it "well" and... oh wait so did the Hindu and the Muslums and the Mormans......
People of religon believe what they are told and are taught not to question The Word. Just follow.
People of science look at an idea and not only question it but try to disprove it. Sometimes in their search, they find the answers to their idea, to their questions.
No wonder religon and science have not always been able to coexist.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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that one that gives the lords chosen people the right to kill anyone who stands in their way....
Deuteronomy 7 1-2, 5-6
Driving Out the Nations
When the lord your god brings you into the land you are entering to possess, and drives out before you many nations, and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.
Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy. Do not allow any of them to live.
This is what you are to do to them: Break down their alters, smash their sacred stones, cut down their trees and burn them in the fire.
For you are a people chosen by the lord over all others on the face of the earth.
Talk about a total disrespect for "others"…
This is not the world I'd like to live in…..
but because it's in the bible… and people really believe that this is the word of a god… (and not man)… and because there are people who think that they an carry out all of whatever is written in it…
like I said.. this is not the world I'd like to live in.. but it is!!!
Come to think of it... I think I May have said this once before.
It just doesn't seem to be getting through..... because many still believe in their very real (real in every way, except the dictionary definition "real" way) personal imaginary friend..........
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Talk about a total disrespect for "others"… This is not the world I'd like to live in…
Do you have "total respect for others?" ALL others? No matter what they have done and/or will do?
What's your "take" on how we should deal with terrorists? Most people in the US think that we should utterly slaughter them when we can find them. Are you good with that, or do you think we should "negotiate" with them or buy them lunch?
If you advocate violence against them, then you advocate the same thing that God commanded of the Israelites. When you decry the "genocide" of the early old testament, you are really begging the question. The CLAIM of the old testament is that God had judged those heathen nations and appointed His people to drive them out and destroy them in the process. So, when you claim that this command was "wrong," you are simply asserting that you know (now) better than God how to judge such people.
I do not claim that the modern nation of Israel has any relation to, or similar mandate as, the ancient Israelites! But this discussion is not about modern Israel. Your claim is that you don't want to live in a world in which evil people are held accountable. But, really, you DO want to live in such a world. You just don't happen to buy the idea that the old testament accounts of genocide are morally legitimate. But if the accounts are true, including the parts about God knowing and judging those nations, then the genocide was legitimate... in the same way that violence against criminals and terrorists is legitimate today.
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Alpinist909
Mountain climber
Chesapeake
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Question?
When something occurs that we consider amazing, it is called a miracle. God has interveined. God has giving giving a gift to someone.
Yet, when something bad happens. Something negative. What is that called?
A "non miracle"? A "negative miracle"? No one says, god just killed hundreds of thousands in an earthquake. Or allowed the slaughter of millions. Or allowed a child to be eaten by dogs while a mother watches at gun point.
When someone or many people pray for something and it occurs. Sky man has stepped in.
When there is prayer and they go unanswered, your magic man is not to blame.
A cruel god you worship.
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2
By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Save Me, O God
To the choirmaster: according to Lilies. Of David.
Psalm 69, Save me, O God!
For the waters have come up to my neck.
2 I sink in deep mire,
where there is no foothold;
I have come into deep waters,
and the flood sweeps over me.
3 I am weary with my crying out;
my throat is parched.
My eyes grow dim
with waiting for my God.
4 More in number than the hairs of my head
are those who hate me without cause;
mighty are those who would destroy me,
those who attack me with lies.
What I did not steal
must I now restore?
5 O God, you know my folly;
the wrongs I have done are not hidden from you.
6 Let not those who hope in you be put to shame through me,
O Lord God of hosts;
let not those who seek you be brought to dishonor through me,
O God of Israel.
7 For it is for your sake that I have borne reproach,
that dishonor has covered my face.
8 I have become a stranger to my brothers,
an alien to my mother's sons.
9 For zeal for your house has consumed me,
and the reproaches of those who reproach you have fallen on me.
10 When I wept and humbled my soul with fasting,
it became my reproach.
11 When I made sackcloth my clothing,
I became a byword to them.
12 I am the talk of those who sit in the gate,
and the drunkards make songs about me.
13 But as for me, my prayer is to you, O Lord.
At an acceptable time, O God,
in the abundance of your steadfast love answer me in your saving faithfulness.
14 Deliver me
from sinking in the mire;
let me be delivered from my enemies
and from the deep waters.
15 Let not the flood sweep over me,
or the deep swallow me up,
or the pit close its mouth over me.
16 Answer me, O Lord, for your steadfast love is good;
according to your abundant mercy, turn to me.
17 Hide not your face from your servant;
for I am in distress; make haste to answer me.
18 Draw near to my soul, redeem me;
ransom me because of my enemies!
19 You know my reproach,
and my shame and my dishonor;
my foes are all known to you.
20 Reproaches have broken my heart,
so that I am in despair.
I looked for pity, but there was none,
and for comforters, but I found none.
21 They gave me poison for food,
and for my thirst they gave me sour wine to drink.
22 Let their own table before them become a snare;
and when they are at peace, let it become a trap.
23 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they cannot see,
and make their loins tremble continually.
24 Pour out your indignation upon them,
and let your burning anger overtake them.
25 May their camp be a desolation;
let no one dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute him whom you have struck down,
and they recount the pain of those you have wounded.
27 Add to them punishment upon punishment;
may they have no acquittal from you.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living;
let them not be enrolled among the righteous.
29 But I am afflicted and in pain;
let your salvation, O God, set me on high!
30 I will praise the name of God with a song;
I will magnify him with thanksgiving.
31 This will please the Lord more than an ox
or a bull with horns and hoofs.
32 When the humble see it they will be glad;
you who seek God, let your hearts revive.
33 For the Lord hears the needy
and does not despise his own people who are prisoners.
34 Let heaven and earth praise him,
the seas and everything that moves in them.
35 For God will save Zion
and build up the cities of Judah,
and people shall dwell there and possess it;
36 the offspring of his servants shall inherit it,
and those who love his name shall dwell in it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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When someone or many people pray for something and it occurs. Sky man has stepped in. When there is prayer and they go unanswered, your magic man is not to blame. A cruel god you worship.
This is nothing more than a rewarmed "problem of evil" concern, which has been more than adequately addressed in the philosophical literature. This just isn't the problem you are making it out to be.
Also, you seem to think that either God must perform constant and apparent-to-us miracles or that fact alone is evidence that He doesn't exist.
Yet, you don't have such a high bar for the existence of most things you believe in. For example, when is the last time that you got "cannot-be-denied" evidence that France exists (or some other country you are not presently in and have never visited). What evidence do you actually have that Osama bin Laden actually exists?
You believe in the existence of all sorts of things for which you have neither "adequate" nor continual evidence, and you don't take that "non-evidence" as itself being evidence against that existence. People in glass houses....
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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then the genocide was legitimate...
I don't think this came across the way you meant it.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Go-B said,
John 21:6, Of fishing He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.”
How COOL is that!!!
Jesus was a troll.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Madbolter1-
Face the music: Umpteen millions no longer want to abide by the Abrahamic narrative whether it's Jewish, Christian or Islamic in form. Because they recognize it's all built out of bronze-age ignorance and is now way more liability than benefit.
The angst you feel- which comes through in just about every one of your posts - is the angst many feel. See it as growing pains and just deal with it. Move on.
It's Ovah for Jehovah.
EDIT
P.S. The God you believe in has a name-- it's Jehovah. If as a phd in philosophy you care about communicating clearly (unlike so many of your academic peergroup), you should use it. The God of Moses (aka God of Abraham aka God of the Ancient Hebrews) is Jehovah.
Nowadays, the ONLY light philosophy as a discipline seems to have is coming from the Daniel Dennett camp.
Philosophy as a discipline better get out of bed with theology and quit living in medieval times and medieval books so much or it won't ever catch up-- ever again-- to (a) the science and engineering disciplines and (b) "post-philosophical" disciplines now emerging. Just sayin'.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Well, his name is actually YHWH - the Ancient Hebrews didn't always believe in vowels, or perhaps more phonetically Yawheh. Jehovah is an English attempt at its pronunciation.
In the old testament, YHWH is often translated as Jehovah or The LORD, depending on your translation.
YHWH means "I am who I am" - he was there long before Popeye the Sailor Man.
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Alpinist909
Mountain climber
Chesapeake
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Here are some all time fav's.....
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:
Kill Brats
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
Killed by a Lion
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
Killing the Good Samaritan
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)
3) Murdering Children
Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
4) Miscellaneous Murders
More of Samson's Murders
(The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)
Peter Kills Two People
There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God." As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?" "Yes," she replied, "that was the price." And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too." Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)
Mass Murder
This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
You Have to Kill
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
The Danites Kill the Next Town
But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB)
God Kills Some More
Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth." (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)
God Promises More Killing
I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)
The Angel of Death
My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB)
Destruction of Ai
Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city." So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: "Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, 'The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.' Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders." So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.
Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn't realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.
Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city." Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.
When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)
Killing at Jericho
When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)
God Kills an Extended Family
"You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'" Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam's wife, "Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him." (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)
Mass Murder
The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)
The Angel of Death
That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)
Kill Your Neighbors
(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)
Kill the Family of Sinners
And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me. And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it." [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.] "So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible)
Kill Followers of Other Religions
While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)
Murder
At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself." Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!" Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don't let a single one escape!" So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)
Kill All of Babylon
"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)
Micah Kills a Whole Town
Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)
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Alpinist909
Mountain climber
Chesapeake
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Here are a few more...
1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?
2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.
3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.
5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".
6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]
This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!
7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
8) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)
They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)
9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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But Yahweh doesn't rhyme with Jehovah. As in...
It's ovah for Jehovah.
The point is... The "God of Moses" was ONE OF MANY ancient local Mesopotamian Gods. It's time people figured this out.
While we're at it... It's time people also pointed out to Abrahamic Christians and Muslims that they are "atheist" with respect to Amon-Re (God of the ancient Egyptians), that they are "atheist" with respect to Zeus, Artemis and Apollo (Gods of ancient Greece).
Reframe it. Stop letting them get away with it. Call em on it.
Be the change you seek in the world.
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Alpinist909
Mountain climber
Chesapeake
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Apr 10, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
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Contradictions.....
1.God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7
Moral Precepts
24. Robbery commanded
Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
Robbery forbidden
Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15
25. Lying approved and sanctioned
Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22
Lying forbidden
Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8
26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned
2 Kings 14:7,3
Hatred to the Edomite forbidden
Deut 23:7
27. Killing commanded
Ex 32:27
Killing forbidden
Ex 20:13
28. The blood-shedder must die
Gen 9:5,6
The blood-shedder must not die
Gen 4:15
29. The making of images forbidden
Ex 20:4
The making of images commanded
Ex 25:18,20
30. Slavery and oppression ordained
Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8
Slavery and oppression forbidden
Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10
31. Improvidence enjoyed
Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3
Improvidence condemned
1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22
32. Anger approved
Eph 4:26
Anger disapproved
Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20
33. Good works to be seen of men
Matt 5:16
Good works not to be seen of men
Matt 6:1
34. Judging of others forbidden
Matt 7:1,2
Judging of others approved
1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12
35. Christ taught non-resistance
Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
Luke 22:36/ John 2:15
36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
Luke 12:4
Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
John 7:1
37. Public prayer sanctioned
1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3
Public prayer disapproved
Matt 6:5,6
38. Importunity in prayer commended
Luke 18:5,7
Importunity in prayer condemned
Matt 6:7,8
39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned
Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5
The wearing of long hair by men condemned
1 Cor 11:14
40. Circumcision instituted
Gen 17:10
Circumcision condemned
Gal 5:2
41. The Sabbath instituted
Ex 20:8
The Sabbath repudiated
Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16
42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day
Ex 20:11
The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites
out of Egypt
Deut 5:15
43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death
Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36
Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in
the same
John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5
44. Baptism commanded
Matt 28:19
Baptism not commanded
1 Cor 1:17,14
45. Every kind of animal allowed for food.
Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14
Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food.
Deut 14:7,8
46. Taking of oaths sanctioned
Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13
Taking of oaths forbidden
Matt 5:34
47. Marriage approved
Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4
Marriage disapproved
1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8
48. Freedom of divorce permitted
Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14
Divorce restricted
Matt 5:32
49. Adultery forbidden
Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
Adultery allowed
Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3
50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced
Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17
Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union
Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16
51. A man may marry his brother's widow
Deut 25:5
A man may not marry his brother's widow
Lev 20:21
52. Hatred to kindred enjoined
Luke 14:26
Hatred to kindred condemned
Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29
53. Intoxicating beverages recommended
Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15
Intoxicating beverages discountenanced
Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32
54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers
and punish evil doers only
Rom 13:1-3,6
It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the
good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor
Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/
Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35
55. Women's rights denied
Gen 3:16/ 1 Tim 2:12/ 1 Cor 14:34/ 1 Pet 3:6
Women's rights affirmed
Judg 4:4,14,15/ Judg 5:7/ Acts 2:18/ Acts 21:9
56. Obedience to masters enjoined
Col 3:22,23/ 1 Pet 2:18
Obedience due to God only
Matt 4:10/ 1 Cor 7:23/ Matt 23:10
57. There is an unpardonable sin
Mark 3:29
There is not unpardonable sin
Acts 13:39
Historical Facts
58. Man was created after the other animals
Gen 1:25,26,27
Man was created before the other animals
Gen 2:18,19
59. Seed time and harvest were never to cease
Gen 8:22
Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years
Gen 41:54,56/ Gen 45:6
60. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
Ex 4:21/ Ed 9:12
Pharaoh hardened his own heart
Ex 8:15
61. All the cattle and horses in Egypt died
Ex 9:3,6/ 14:9
All the horses of Egypt did not die
Ex 14:9
62. Moses feared Pharaoh
Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
Moses did not fear Pharaoh
Heb 11:27
63. There died of the plague twenty-four thousand
Num 25:9
There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand
1 Cor 10:8
64. John the Baptist was Elias
Matt 11:14
John the Baptist was not Elias
John 1:21
65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob
Matt 1:16
The father of Mary's husband was Heli
Luke 3:23
66. The father of Salah was Arphaxad
Gen 11:12
The father of Salah was Cainan
Luke 3:35,36
67. There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:2-6
68. There were fourteen generations from the Babylonian captivity
to Christ.
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from the Babylonian
captivity to Christ
Matt 1:12-16
69. The infant Christ was taken into Egypt
Matt 2:14,15,19,21,23
The infant Christ was not taken into Egypt
Luke 2:22, 39
70. Christ was tempted in the wilderness
Mark 1:12,13
Christ was not tempted in the wilderness
John 2:1,2
71. Christ preached his first sermon on the mount
Matt 5:1,2
Christ preached his first sermon on the plain
Luke 6:17,20
72. John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
Mark 1:14
John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
John 1:43/ John 3:22-24
73. Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with a staff
and sandals
Mark 6:8,9
Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with neither
staffs nor sandals.
Matt 10:9,10
74. A woman of Canaan besought Jesus
Matt 15:22
It was a Greek woman who besought Him
Mark 7:26
75. Two blind men besought Jesus
Matt 20:30
Only one blind man besought Him
Luke 18:35,38
76. Christ was crucified at the third hour
Mark 15:25
Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
John 19:14,15
77. The two thieves reviled Christ.
Matt 27:44/ Mark 15:32
Only one of the thieves reviled Christ
Luke 23:39,40
78. Satan entered into Judas while at supper
John 13:27
Satan entered into him before the supper
Luke 22:3,4,7
79. Judas committed suicide by hanging
Matt 27:5
Judas did not hang himself, but died another way
Acts 1:18
80. The potter's field was purchased by Judas
Acts 1:18
The potter's field was purchased by the Chief Priests
Matt 27:6,7
81. There was but one woman who came to the sepulchre
John 20:1
There were two women who came to the sepulchre
Matt 28:1
82. There were three women who came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:1
There were more than three women who came to the sepulchre
Luke 24:10
83. It was at sunrise when they came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:2
It was some time before sunrise when they came.
John 20:1
84. There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and
they were standing up.
Luke 24:4
There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down.
Matt 28:2,5
85. There were two angels seen within the sepulchre.
John 20:11,12
There was but one angel seen within the sepulchre
Mark 16:5
86. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
Matt 12:40
Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9>
87. Holy ghost bestowed at pentecost
Acts 1:8,5
Holy ghost bestowed before pentecost
John 20:22
88. The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go into Galilee
Matt 28:10
The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go tarry at Jerusalem
Luke 24:49
89. Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at
Jerusalem
Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19
Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee
Matt 28:16,17
90. Christ ascended from Mount Olivet
Acts 1:9,12
Christ ascended from Bethany
Luke 24:50,51
91. Paul's attendants heard the miraculous voice, and stood
speechless
Acts 9:7
Paul's attendants heard not the voice and were prostrate
Acts 26:14
92. Abraham departed to go into Canaan
Gen 12:5
Abraham went not knowing where
Heb 11:8
93. Abraham had two sons
Gal 4:22
Abraham had but one son
Heb 11:17
94. Keturah was Abraham's wife
Gen 25:1
Keturah was Abraham's concubine
1 Chron 1:32
95. Abraham begat a son when he was a hundred years old, by the
interposition of Providence
Gen 21:2/ Rom 4:19/ Heb 11:12
Abraham begat six children more after he was a hundred years
old without any interposition of providence
Gen 25:1,2
96. Jacob bought a sepulchre from Hamor
Josh 24:32
Abraham bought it of Hamor
Acts 7:16
97. God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed
forever
Gen 13:14,15,17; 17:8
Abraham and his seed never received the promised land
Acts 7:5/ Heb 11:9,13
98. Goliath was slain by Elhanan
2 Sam 21:19 *note, was changed in translation to be
correct. Original manuscript was incorrect>
The brother of Goliath was slain by Elhanan
1 Chron 20:5
99. Ahaziah began to reign in the twelfth year of Joram
2 Kings 8:25
Ahaziah began to reign in the eleventh year of Joram
2 Kings 9:29
100. Michal had no child
2 Sam 6:23
Michal had five children
2 Sam 21:8
101. David was tempted by the Lord to number Israel
2 Sam 24:1
David was tempted by Satan to number the people
1 Chron 21:1
102. The number of fighting men of Israel was 800,000; and of
Judah 500,000
2 Sam 24:9
The number of fighting men of Israel was 1,100,000; and of
Judah 470,000
1 Chron 21:5
103. David sinned in numbering the people
2 Sam 24:10
David never sinned, except in the matter of Uriah
1 Kings 15:5
104. One of the penalties of David's sin was seven years of
famine.
2 Sam 24:13
It was not seven years, but three years of famine
1 Chron 21:11,12
105. David took seven hundred horsemen
2 Sam 8:4
David took seven thousand horsemen
1 Chron 18:4
106. David bought a threshing floor for fifty shekels of silver
2 Sam 24:24
David bought the threshing floor for six hundred shekels of
gold
1 Chron 21:25
107. David's throne was to endure forever.
Ps 89:35-37
David's throne was cast down
Ps 89:44
Speculative Doctrines
108. Christ is equal with God
John 10:30/ Phil 2:5
Christ is not equal with God
John 14:28/ Matt 24:36
109. Jesus was all-powerful
Matt 28:18/ John 3:35
Jesus was not all-powerful
Mark 6:5
110. The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation
Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6
The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation
Matt 5:17-19
111. Christ's mission was peace
Luke 2:13,14
Christ's mission was not peace
Matt 10:34
112. Christ received not testimony from man
John 5:33,34
Christ did receive testimony from man
John 15:27
113. Christ's witness of himself is true.
John 8:18,14
Christ's witness of himself is not true.
John 5:31
114. Christ laid down his life for his friends
John 15:13/ John 10:11
Christ laid down his life for his enemies
Rom 5:10
115. It was lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death
John 19:7
It was not lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death
John 18:31
116. Children are punished for the sins of the parents
Ex 20:5
Children are not punished for the sins of the parents
Ezek 18:20
117. Man is justified by faith alone
Rom 3:20/ Gal 2:16/ Gal 3:11,12/ Rom 4:2
Man is not justified by faith alone
James 2:21,24/ Rom 2:13
118. It is impossible to fall from grace
John 10:28/ Rom 8:38,39
It is possible to fall from grace
Ezek 18:24/ Heb 6:4-6, 2 Pet 2:20,21
119. No man is without sin
1 Kings 8:46/ Prov 20:9/ Eccl 7:20/ Rom 3:10
Christians are sinless
1 John 3: 9,6,8
120. There is to be a resurrection of the dead
1 Cor 15:52/ Rev 20:12,13/ Luke 20:37/ 1 Cor 15:16
There is to be no resurrection of the dead
Job 7:9/ Eccl 9:5/ Is 26:14
121. Reward and punishment to be bestowed in this world
Prov 11:31
Reward and punishment to be bestowed in the next world
Rev 20:12/ Matt 16:27/ 2 Cor 5:10
122. Annihilation the portion of all mankind
Job 3: 11,13-17,19-22/ Eccl 9:5,10/ Eccl 3:19,20
Endless misery the portion of all mankind
Matt 25:46/ Rev 20:10,15/ Rev 14:11/ Dan 12:2
123. The Earth is to be destroyed
2 Pet 3:10/ Heb 1:11/ Rev 20:11
The Earth is never to be destroyed
Ps 104:5/ Eccl 1:4
124. No evil shall happen to the godly
Prov 12:21/ 1 Pet 3:13
Evil does happen to the godly
Heb 12:6/ Job 2:3,7
125. Worldly good and prosperity are the lot of the godly
Prov 12:21/ Ps 37:28,32,33,37/ Ps 1:1,3/ Gen 39:2/
Job 42:12
Worldly misery and destitution the lot of the godly
Heb 11:37,38/ Rev 7:14/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Luke 21:17
126. Worldly prosperity a reward of righteousness and a blessing
Mark 10:29,30/ Ps 37:25/ Ps 112:1,3/ Job 22:23,24/
Prov 15:6
Worldly prosperity a curse and a bar to future reward
Luke 6:20,24/ Matt 6:19,21/ Luke 16:22/ Matt 19:24/
Luke 6:24
127. The Christian yoke is easy
Matt 11:28,29,30
The Christian yoke is not easy
John 16:33/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Heb 12:6,8
128. The fruit of God's spirit is love and gentleness
Gal 5:22
The fruit of God's spirit is vengeance and fury
Judg 15:14/ 1 Sam 18:10,11
129. Longevity enjoyed by the wicked
Job 21:7,8/ Ps 17:14/ Eccl 8:12/ Is 65:20
Longevity denied to the wicked
Eccl 8:13/ Ps 55:23/ Prov 10:27/ Job 36:14/ Eccl 7:17
130. Poverty a blessing
Luke 6:20,24/ Jams 2:5
Riches a blessing
Prov 10:15/ Job 22:23,24/ Job 42:12
Neither poverty nor riches a blessing
Prov 30:8,9
131. Wisdom a source of enjoyment
Prov 3:13,17
Wisdom a source of vexation, grief and sorrow
Eccl 1:17,18
132. A good name is a blessing
Eccl 7:1/ Prov 22:1
A good name is a curse
Luke 6:26
133. Laughter commended
Eccl 3:1,4/ Eccl 8:15
Laughter condemned
Luke 6:25/ Eccl 7:3,4
134. The rod of correction a remedy for foolishness
Prov 22:15
There is no remedy for foolishness
Prov 27:22
135. A fool should be answered according to his folly
Prov 26:5
A fool should not be answered according to his folly
Prov 26:4
136. Temptation to be desired
James 1:2
Temptation not to be desired
Matt 6:13
137. Prophecy is sure
2 Pet 1:19
Prophecy is not sure
Jer 18:7-10
138. Man's life was to be one hundred and twenty years
Gen 6:3/ Ps 90:10
Man's life is but seventy years
Ps 90:10
139. The fear of man was to be upon every beast
Gen 9:2
The fear of man is not upon the lion
Prov 30:30
140. Miracles a proof of divine mission
Matt 11:2-5/ John 3:2/ Ex 14:31
Miracles not a proof of divine mission
Ex 7:10-12/ Deut 13:1-3/ Luke 11:19
141. Moses was a very meek man
Num 12:3
Moses was a very cruel man
Num 31:15,17
142. Elijah went up to heaven
2 Kings 2:11
None but Christ ever ascended into heaven
John 3:13
143. All scripture is inspired
2 Tim 3:16
Some scripture is not inspired
1 Cor 7:6/ 1 Cor 7:12/ 2 Cor 11:17
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword.
- Matthew 10:34
... all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
- Matthew 26:52
------------------------------------------------------------------------
For wrath killeth the foolish man...
- Job 5:2
... let not the sun go down on your wrath.
- Ephesians 4:26
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the Son of man which
is in heaven.
- John 3:13
... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
- 2 Kings 2:11
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
- John 5:31
I am one that bear witness of myself...
- John 8:18
[Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children...
- Proverbs 13:22
Sell that ye have and give alms...
- Luke 12:33
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches
shall be in his house...
- Psalms 112:1-3
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
- Matthew 19:24
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I and my father are one.
- John 10:30
... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
- John 14:28
[Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thou shalt not kill
- Exodus 20:13
Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his
side... and slay every man his brother...
- Exodus 32:27
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.
- Exodus 20:8
The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot
away with: it is iniquity.
- Isaiah 3:22
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness
of anything that is in heaven... earth... [or] water.
- Leviticus 26:11
And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt
thou make them.
- Exodus 25:18
------------------------------------------------------------------------
For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works.
- Ephesians 2:8-9
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by
faith only.
- James 2:24
------------------------------------------------------------------------
God is not a man, that he should lie: neither the son of man,
that he should repent.
- Numbers 23:19
And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his
people.
- Exodus 32:14
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall
hear his voice, and come forth...
- John 5:28-29
As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth
down to the grave shall come up no more.
- Job 7:9
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth,
hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for
wound, stripe for stripe.
- Exodus 21:23-25
... resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right
cheek, turn to him the other also.
- Matthew 5:39
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Honor thy father and mother.
- Exodus 20:12
If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and
wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own
life also, he cannot be my disciple.
- Luke 14:26
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lay not up for yourself treasures upon the earth...
- Matthew 6:19
In the house of the righteous is much treasure...
- Proverbs 15:6
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
- Genesis 32:30
No man hath seen God at any time.
- John 1:18
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.
- Ezekiel 18:20
... I the lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of
the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth
generation.
- Exodus 20:5
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth
understanding.
- Proverbs 3:13
For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth
knowledge increaseth sorrow.
- Ecclesiastes 1:18
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Lord is good to all.
- Psalm 145:6
I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things.
- Isaiah 45:7
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
- Matthew 5:22
[Jesus said] Ye fools and blind.
- Matthew 23:17
------------------------------------------------------------------------
For all have sinned.
- Romans 3:23
There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect
and upright.
- Job 1:1
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign.
- 2 Kings 8:26
Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign.
- 2 Chronicles 22:2
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If a man vow a vow unto the Lord or swear an oath... he shall do
according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.
- Numbers 30:2
But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven... nor by
earth.
- Matthew 5:34-35
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... the earth abideth forever.
- Ecclesiastes 1:4
... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and
the works that are therein shall be burned up.
- 2 Peter 3:10
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger
forever.
- Jeremiah 3:12
Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever.
- Jeremiah 17:4
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
- James 1:13
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt
Abraham.
- Genesis 22:1
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And God saw everything that he made, and behold it was very good.
- Genesis 1:31
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on earth, and it
grieved him at his heart
- Genesis 6:6
------------------------------------------------------------------------
For now have I chosen and sanctified this house that my name be
there forever; and mine eyes and my heart shall be there
perpetually.
- II Chronicles 7:16
Howbeit the most high dwelleth not in temples made with hands.
- Acts 7:48
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[God dwells] in the light which no man can approach unto.
- I Timothy 6:16
The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
- I Kings 8:12
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the Lord called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid.
- Genesis 3:9,10
Ye hath neither heard his voice, at any time, nor seen his shape.
- John 5:37
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the
elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel... They saw
God, and did eat and drink.
- Exodus 24: 9-11
Whom no man hath seen nor can see.
- I Timothy 6:16
------------------------------------------------------------------------
With God all things are possible.
- Matthew 29:26
And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of
the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the
valley, because they had chariots of iron.
- Judges 1:19
------------------------------------------------------------------------
God is not the author of confusion.
- I Corinthians 24:33
Out of the mouth of the most high proceedeth not evil and good?
- Lamentations 3:38
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those that seek me early shall find me.
- Proverbs 8:17
Then shall they call upon me but I will not answer; they shall
seek me early, but shall not find me.
- Proverbs 1:28
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of
atonement; it shall be a holy convocation unto you; and ye shall
afflict your souls and offer an offering made by fire unto the
Lord.
- Leviticus 23:27
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day
that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt
offering or sacrifices.
- Jeremiah 7:22
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the priest shall burn all on the altar to be a burnt
sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the
Lord.
- Leviticus 1:9
Your burnt offering are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet
unto me.
- Jeremiah 7:20
------------------------------------------------------------------------
God is not a man, that he should lie
- Numbers 23:19
And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the
Lord have deceived that prophet.
- Ezekiel 24:9
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is none other God but one.
- I Corinthians 8:4
And God said, Let us make man in our image.
- Genesis 1:26
------------------------------------------------------------------------
When ye go, ye shall not go empty; but every woman shall borrow
of her neighbor, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels
of silver and jewels of gold, and raiment; and ye shall put them
on your sons and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the
Egyptians.
- Exodus 3:21,22
Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, nether rob him.
- Leviticus 19:13
------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of
man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed.
- Genesis 4:5,6
And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should
kill him.
- Genesis 4:15
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not,
neither do they spin... if God so clothe the grass of the
field... shall he not much more clothe you? Therefore, take no
thought, saying what shall we eat? or what shall we drink? or
wherewithal shall we be clothed?... Take, therefore, no thought
for the morrow.
- Matthew 6:28, 30-34
But if any provideth not for his own, especially for those of his
own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an
infidel.
- I Timothy 5:8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be ye angry and sin not.
- Ephesians 4:26
Be not hasty in they spirit to be angry; for anger resideth in
the bosom of fools.
- Ecclesiastes 7:9
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good
works.
- Matthew 5:16
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of
them.
- Matthew 6:1
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And Solomon stood before the alter of the Lord, in the presence
of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands
toward heaven...
- I Kings 7:22
When thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are; for
they love to pray standing in the synagogues, and in the corners
of the streets, that they may be seen of men...
- Matthew 6:5
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And no razor shall come on his head; for the child shall be a
Nazarite unto God from the womb.
- Judges 8:5
Doth not even nature itself teach you, that if a man hath long
hair, it is a shame unto him?
- I Corinthians 6:14
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
- Exodus 20:8
One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every
day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
- Romans 14:5
------------------------------------------------------------------------
For in the six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and
all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the
Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
- Exodus 20:11
And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and
that the Lord thy God brought the out thence through a mighty
hand and by a stretched-out arm; therefore the Lord thy God
commanded the to keep the Sabbath day.
- Deuteronomy 5:15
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is nothing unclean of itself.
- Romans 14:14
Nevertheless, these shall ye not eat, of them that chew the cud or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel and the hare, and the coney; for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof, therefore they are unclean unto you. And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass.
- Deuteronomy 14:7,8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cursed is he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother.
- Deuteronomy 27:22
And Abraham said... She is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
- Genesis 20:11,12
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If brethren dwell together, and one of them die and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger; her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife.
- Deuteronomy 25:5
If a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing... they shall be childless.
- Leviticus 20:21
------------------------------------------------------------------------
He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness.
- Mark 3:29
And by him that believe are justified from all things.
- Acts 13:39
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[John the Baptist] is Elias which was for to come.
- Matthew 11:14
And they asked him, what then? Art thou [John the Baptist] Elias? And he saith, I am not.
- John 1:21
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee,
preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God.
- Mark 1:14
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judea... and John was also baptizing Enon... for John was not yet cast into prison.
- John 3:22-24
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And it was in the third hour, and they crucified him.
- Mark 25:3-4
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour; and he saith unto the Jews, behold your king... Shall I crucify your king?
- John 19:14-15
------------------------------------------------------------------------
They gave him vinegar to drink, mingled with gall.
- Matthew 27:34
And they gave him to drink, wine mingled with myrrh.
- Mark 15:23
[Jesus was the thirsty chap in both verses.]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the men which journeyed with [Paul] stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
- Acts 9:7
And they that were with me [Paul] saw indeed the light and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
- Acts 22:9
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abraham had two sons; one by a bonds-maid, the other by a free woman.
- Galatians 4:22
By faith, Abraham when he was tried offered up Isaac... his only begotten son.
- Hebrews 11:17
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Therefore Michal, the daughter of Saul, had no child unto the day of her death.
- II Samuel 6:23
The five sons of Michal, the daughter of Saul.
- II Samuel 21:8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel.
- II Samuel 24:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
- I Chronicles 21:1
------------------------------------------------------------------------
All power is given unto [Jesus] in heaven and in earth.
- Matthew 28:18
And [Jesus] could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands on a few sick folk and healed them.
- Mark 6:5
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There shall no evil happen to the just.
- Proverbs 12:21
Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
- Hebrews 12:6
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Apr 11, 2010 - 01:07am PT
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Alpinist909- "1..."
To begin with Genesis 6:6 occurs 1,000 or so years after Genesis 1:31!!
It is one of the saddest moments in the Bible IMHO. God created man for a loving/trusting relationship, gave him everything, and he(mankind)rejects Him and becomes contumptous and evil.
All but Noah and his family(and Enoch, previously). And God was on the verge of destroying His creation...not the outcome He had hoped for!
EDIT: So it is KNOTT a contradiction!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Apr 11, 2010 - 01:30am PT
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Alpinist909- 2."God dwells in chosen temples." Chronicles 7:12,16
Yes, in the Old Testament, God requested, first, a Tabernacle(which was transported across the Sinai)and subsequently a Temple(Jerusalem)where He(God the Holy Spirit)dwelt, and was worshiped, as long as the Isrealites were obedient.
Alpinist909- "God dwells not in Temples" Acts 7:48
This is correct.
Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to dwell in mans hearts. This is what happened at Pentecost. The New Covenant.
When you ask Jesus Christ to come into your life, He supernaturally does!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Apr 11, 2010 - 01:39am PT
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Alpinist- 3."God dwells in light...God dwells in darknest(clouds)."
Yes, God is Omnipresent...He is EVERYWHERE!!
EDIT: You need to look at these verses in context dude/dudette, not simply google-cut-paste!! You obviously have never studied scripture.
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Clarke Brogger
Mountain climber
Laguna Beach, Ca
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Apr 11, 2010 - 01:45am PT
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Flouride~
I don't see or sense any motive for debate from Juan. This all started with a simple question. "What are your favorite Bible passages?" You didnt have to respond.
You read into Juan's post a whole bunch of your own stuff. Leave THAT for another site. If somethign on this site doesn't interest you dont waste your own time by responding.
Peace.
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Apr 11, 2010 - 10:19am PT
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Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2
By John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/
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Alpinist909
Mountain climber
Chesapeake
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Apr 11, 2010 - 10:20am PT
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Trip
I grew up in the bible belt. My family attented many churches in many towns. After I left home, I would attend the church of girlfriend I was dating. So I have heard much of the scripture. I have read part of the bible. I watch coworker pray before meals. I hear people speak of god. My kids pray before bed and attend church with my wife.
I tire of being pc in my surroundings.
Non religious people are suppose to tolerate the god fearing. Our politians make idiotic decisions based on their religious beliefs. Who is going to risk the ridicule to speak againt them?
I could go on a rant why religion is poisonous, dangerous and causes as much harm as it keeps the honest, honest.
I have been posting out of spite. This is a climbing website. If I wanted to have religious debates, I would go to the appropiate website.
Post like this here are fair game and the logic of my post will make some people who doubt their faith even question it more. As I started doing 20 years ago. Then stepping away from religion to look at it from a more scientic angle helped me decide that I had been a sheep in the money making industry of the church. Away from the book of campfire stories they were designed over centuries to control the masses.
Good luck with your pursuit.
best regards,
John Fitzgerald
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 11, 2010 - 11:45am PT
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Alpinist909- Noble of you to take up the baton.
"It's Ovah for Jehovah." That's the mantra. Day to day, might not seem so. But give it three generations (75 years) and it will be obvious. The internet-driven info age is just too strong. Thank goodness.
Hadrian: Brick by brick.
Ghandi: Be the change you seek in the world.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Apr 11, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
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Alpinist- "Good luck with your pursuit."
It's not a pursuit, it's a relationship!
I found Him long ago. And once you do, "He will never leave you or forsake you."
"Seek and ye shall find, knock and you shall enter"
He is knocking on the door to everyone's heart...you never invited Him in to yours.
He is a spiritual presence, as real as any person on this earth, and much more so.
There are many people in church that go along with all that you have spoke of. Many are very good people, they just never got on their knees, admitted they were sinners, and asked Jesus Christ into their hearts/life.
They know all about Him, but they don't personally know Him.
There are many people here who know all about various individuals. Read all about there climbs, exploits, adventures, and what others have to say about them. They've read and dissected there writings and articles, there books. But they have never personally met them.
God(Jesus) could care less about money(look at what He did in regards to the money-changers in the Temple)...it's about your heart.
Science?? Why not PERSONALLY ask Him if He is real? Just ask Him "IF you are real, and you are God, then I do want to go to heaven, I do want to know you, thank you for dieing for me, please come into my heart!"
What have you got to loose?
You would be a fool not to.
"Only the fool says there is no God!"
20 years??
You could have found out in 20 seconds...the time it takes to say the above prayer!!!
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 11, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
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"He is knocking on the door to everyone's heart...you never invited Him in to yours."
He never has to knock. He's already in there in every living entity (atma) as paratma.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 12, 2010 - 06:25am PT
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Nowadays, the ONLY light philosophy as a discipline seems to have is coming from the Daniel Dennett camp.
ROFL!
Ooops! Your amazing ignorance is showing again!
Thomas Nagel, John Searle, and Saul Kripke (look 'em up; they're not "lightweights") all beg to differ with your ridiculous (and, yet again, sweeping) claim.
HFCS: yet again... open mouth... wider... wider... insert foot... deeper... deeper... try to close mouth... but...
just...
can't...
do it!
Really, my friend, you should stick to pure ranting, because when you try to make substantive claims, particularly about philosophy, you only demonstrate, yet again, your utter lack of intellectual honesty. You read only what suits you. You completely ignore the vast body of evidence opposing you. Yet you cite "millions" as though numbers have anything to do with it. You honestly have no clue what you are talking about.
Exercise a bit of intellectual honesty and discipline, and then at least you won't be embarrassing yourself. If you want to get serious about comparing Dennett with other mainstream analytical philosophy, I'll be happy to point you to a representative body of literature. Barring that, you should really just stick to mindless rants.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 12, 2010 - 06:34am PT
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Then stepping away from religion to look at it from a more scientic angle helped me decide that I had been a sheep in the money making industry of the church.
John, genuine spirituality and religion are two quite different things. And while you're condemning "money making industries," take a closer look at science itself. Then, if you think that the money expended really is worth it because you get "cool stuff" like microwave ovens out of it, well, look even more closely!
Science is not a truth-seeking mechanism; it is a purely pragmatic enterprise proposing models of "how things seem to work to us at this moment in time," and those models at times can be used by engineers to give us some "cool stuff." But the "cool stuff" does not demonstrate the truth of scientific models (contrast Carnap's "verificationism" with Popper's "falsificationism").
If the "cool stuff" wows you so much, well, so be it. I'm not wowed enough to think that the claims of science are TRUE. There are many, many more types of evidence on the table than merely the empirical evidence; and the empirical evidence itself needs interpretation.
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ExtraBlue
Ice climber
the ford VT
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Apr 12, 2010 - 09:19am PT
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Alpinist909
You just made my morning. Keep up the good work!
Now my personal favorite passages from the sacred texts
AND SO HE SPOKE UNTO THE TRADMAN AND SAID GO FORTH AND SPREAD THE RULZ FOR THE BOOTY BENEFITS NOT THE WHINER NOR THE CRYBABY NOR THE FAINT OF HEART, BUT HE WHO CLIMBS WITH THE DAWN TO RECOVER THE GEAR LEFT BY THE FEARFULL. EXCEPT
#1 If you leave it for any reason other than assisting in a rescue it is booty as soon as you leave the parking lot unless you make it known that you will be back the next day to retrieve it.
#2 if you plan on getting it the next day BE THERE BY 6:00AM! Don't show up at 4:00pm and start crying when you can't find your shwagg.
#3 If it takes full screws and you don't know how to make a thread STFU and stop your whineing
#4 Just because it is late and you are tired is no excuse to start drinking and head home to your computer to beg us to go retrieve you shwag for you.
Hike your lazy ass back up that trail and find you own lost tool or stop whineing and write it off as lost.
Rules for finders.
#1 Stuff you find in the parking lot is Not booty. Its lost and found material.
#2 Any and All gear that is left or misplaced in the course of a rescue including the victims gear is NOT booty and will be collected and returned to rightful owners.
#3 any gear that is abandoned or lost due to incompetence, lack of skill, sack or sheer laziness is booty as soon as the former owners of that gear have left the cliff and given up attempts to retrieve that gear. Exceptions would be when the spanked party announces intention to resume recovery process at first light the following day.
#4 Finders of booty may offer to return said booty. The losing party loses face if they accept the return of their gear.
Rules for the losers
#1 Asking for your gear back is bad form and shows a lack of self respect.
#2 If the finder of your shwag offers to return it you may accept but if you do you will lose face. Buying them a six pack or case will help but in some cases still not completely erase the honor debt. If they offer , you refuse and they offer again and you accept it's much better but you should still buy them a drink and you still lost face just not as much face.
#3 The ONLY way to escape your embarrassing loss of gear without losing face is to not accept its return . A simple " thanks for offering but you guys earned it" should give you a clean slate 99.9% of the time.
Of course there are allways going to be a few exceptions to these rules. For instance if I had rapped Poko to retrieve those Quarks on Gorillas I would have returned them ASAP and still hold the spanked leader in extreemly high regard. Try that same trick on Standard RT and be too lazy to hike around to rap in and retrieve your tools and you would be giving me a new set of Quarks
(quoted from Tradman of Neice)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 12, 2010 - 11:50am PT
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Sad comparison.
Uh... What is it like to be a... living thing that can't accept its own nature. We're not only evolved beings, we're mechanistic beings, not "above" the causal laws. Spend your energies adapting to your nature instead of fighting it.
At least science and engineering are results oriented and moving forward. Not stuck in the past. Nor stuck in any medieval bed with that ol decrepit now-discredited whore of Abrahamic theology.
Spend even a few weeks admiring the science and engineering principles underlying engineering products that have reshaped the world's cultures and maybe you'll begin to see the distinction between these disciplines and yours.
Back to school. You chose a decrepit discipline. Nobody's fault but your own.
"...not wowed enough to think that the claims of science are TRUE."
At least the claims of the sciences are evidenced in real time everyday in their engineering, engineering products of technology. At least everytime I'm hanging by the mechanical advantage of a camalot I'm not wondering if a spook is going to suspend laws because he doesn't like me and retract it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 12, 2010 - 11:55am PT
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Bears repeating:
re: philosophy as an academic discipline
At least the claims of the sciences are evidenced in real time everyday in their engineering, their engineering results, engineering products of technology.
At least everytime I'm hanging by the mechanical advantage of a camalot I'm not wondering if a spook is going to suspend laws because he doesn't like me and retract it.
Philosophy as a discipline, esp in any traditional line of discourse, is irrelevant today.
At least science and engineering are results oriented and moving forward. Not stuck in the past. Nor stuck in any medieval bed with that ol decrepit now-discredited whore of Abrahamic theology.
Spend even a few weeks admiring the science and engineering principles underlying engineering products that have reshaped the world's cultures and maybe you'll begin to see the distinction between these disciplines and yours.
Back to school. You chose a decrepit discipline. Nobody's fault but your own.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 12, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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You know it and I know it-
The reason philosophy as an academic discipline spends so much time in early and medieval history citing references and talking crazy esoterica (to which nine out of ten people don't relate) is because it doesn't have anything new or substantive (by comparison with science and engineering) to add to the discussion.
If the "cool stuff" wows you so much, well, so be it. I'm not wowed enough to think that the claims of science are TRUE. There are many, many more types of evidence on the table than merely the empirical evidence; and the empirical evidence itself needs interpretation.
To use your favorite expression: ROTFLMAO. C'mon, confess. You're one of these (professional) philosophy types who runs interference for old Abrahamic theology, giving it refuge. A Christian philosophy student smitten-- in love-- with an old Mesopotamian theology. Well, growing numbers are onto your type now.
Adapt. Take some engineering courses. Nothing like a few engineering and technology courses and maybe some lab work to teach respect for the sciences. You need some.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 12, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
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The man wrote-
"Science is not a truth-seeking mechanism; it is a purely pragmatic enterprise proposing models of "how things seem to work to us at this moment in time," and those models at times can be used by engineers to give us some "cool stuff." But the "cool stuff" does not demonstrate the truth of scientific models (contrast Carnap's "verificationism" with Popper's "falsificationism")".
Basta. Enough.
Dude, you're now in the same penalty box as go-B. Shame.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 12, 2010 - 03:08pm PT
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At least the claims of the sciences are evidenced in real time everyday in their engineering, engineering products of technology. At least everytime I'm hanging by the mechanical advantage of a camalot I'm not wondering if a spook is going to suspend laws because he doesn't like me and retract it.
ROFL.... Keep it coming, HFCS.
Yet more ignorance. Your example, the Camalot, works because of the principles of geometry, not because of the method of science. Furthermore, engineering is NOT science, and scientists are NOT engineers.
And it's laughably disingenuous of you to cite Dennett out of one side of your mouth, while you dismiss his discipline out of the other. Indeed, if you had even a passing knowledge of the literature, you would recognize that most of the issues you take from granted (in your ignorance) are PHILOSOPHY of science issues, as is acknowledged by ALL "big gun" scientists (again, STACKS of quotes to follow if you desire). And, most hilarious is how you conflate ancient, medieval, continental, and analytical philosophy. Do you even know what TYPE of philosopher Dennett is??? ROFL, ROFL!!!
It may well be that you are entirely (and, I will add, accidentally) correct, that there is not such thing as the Judeo/Islamic/Christian God. However, two things are quite clear: 1) Your ignorant, distorted "understanding" of the relations to which you refer adds no credence to the world view you espouse; 2) If you happen to be correct, it IS by accident and not a result of any systematic truth-seeking on your part.
Ironically, if your world view is ultimately correct, the view itself predicts that NOBODY can EVER know this. Conversely, if my world view is ultimately correct, the view itself predicts that I myself CAN (ultimately) know this.
So, keep ranting (your world view states that you actually have no choice in that matter). Meanwhile, I remain amused by your post-by-post expressions of abject ignorance.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 12, 2010 - 03:14pm PT
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The man wrote-
"Science is not a truth-seeking mechanism; it is a purely pragmatic enterprise proposing models of "how things seem to work to us at this moment in time," and those models at times can be used by engineers to give us some "cool stuff." But the "cool stuff" does not demonstrate the truth of scientific models (contrast Carnap's "verificationism" with Popper's "falsificationism")".
Basta. Enough.
Dude, you're now in the same penalty box as go-B. Shame.
HAHAHA... wow, "dude," the fact that you didn't understand a single word I said, that you quoted, is obvious. You would not be "putting me in the penalty" box if you had a clue, "dude!"
All your hand-waving histrionics do not hide the fact that you are entirely ignorant, untutored, not acquainted with the relevant literature, and unwilling to even GOOGLE a few terms to avoid public stupidity.
Oh, btw, your "cross-post" edits, in which you basically rewrite from scratch your earlier postings, is evidence of your intellectual dishonesty.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 12, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
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The reason philosophy as an academic discipline spends so much time in early and medieval history citing references and talking crazy esoterica (to which nine out of ten people don't relate) is because it doesn't have anything new or substantive (by comparison with science and engineering) to add to the discussion.
Wow!
Just... WOW!
It is honestly amazing to me... verging on a sense of awe... that anybody would evidence this many layers of stupidity in public.
Wow!
Uhh... just curious... where does Dennett fit into this picture? Do you even know what TYPE of philosopher Dennett is??? (Try Google, btw. There is some help there.)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 12, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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...to which nine out of ten people don't relate...
This is a function of the fact that our society has become Idiocracy, not a function of any merits or demerits of particular academic disciplines.
And, just a note... less than nine out of ten people can "relate" to quantum theory.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 12, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
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A touch of education about philosophy for you, HFCS. I will be quoting from a book you should LOVE: Scientists Confront Creationism (2007, W.W. Norton & Co., Eds: Andrew J. Petto, Laurie R. Godfrey). This book is a collection of essays from world-renowned (and Nobel prize-winning) scientists attempting to refute creationism (particularly the Judeo/Christian version of it). You see, unlike you, I IMMERSE myself in literature specifically designed to threaten my world view. (This is the first step toward intellectual honesty.)
Let's see what YOUR heroes have to say about the discipline of philosophy.
From the Introduction, by the editors, pages 19 and 20:
As much as scientists, by and large, don't particularly enjoy musing about philosophy, science itself is based on fundamental philosophical assumptions.... Philosophy of science is no laughing matter, and scientists would do well to read up on it, especially if they wish to counter creationism in the public arena (and they ought to do so, as professional researchers and educators).
Since YOU seem to want to represent (what you think of as) science "in the public arena," you "would do well" to drop your (stupid) dismissive attitude toward the discipline and "read up on it." Had you done so, you would not have (stupidly) dismissed what I was trying to teach you about Carnap vs. Popper, which is fundamental to an understanding of philosophy of science. Instead, YOU (stupidly) treat philosophy as a "laughing matter," which, as I have been saying, invalidates YOU as a proponent of your world view.
Ironically, your hero, Daniel Dennett, is not a philosopher of science per se. His area of specialization is much more in philosophy of mind. Again, this is my attempt to educate you just a tiny bit.
On that note, the form of your efforts (such as they are) is perpetually the same: "Science is our best truth-seeking mechanism, science has found no room for God, so there is no God." Even if I granted the premises (which I don't), your conclusion does not follow from the premises, a fact that no less a luminary than Robert T. Pennocok admits (on page 334):
My claim was that scientific methods, by themselves, do indeed remain neutral about such metaphysical possibilities. The success or failure of science might ultimately play a role in an argument that draws some conclusions about the metaphysical nature of the world, but that argument would necessarily be philosophical, not scientific.
YOU want to leap to metaphysical conclusions (that ironically depend upon a branch of philosophy that you sweepingly, and stupidly, dismiss), while one of your own heroes is at least versed enough in philosophy to recognize that scientific contributions to the question merely provide a certain sort of evidence, and that that evidence it itself not sufficient to justify the very leap you are trying to take with it!
I could go on and on (literally hundreds of passages I could quote), but this should be a bite-sized morsel that even you can chew on for awhile as you try to think of a way to INTELLIGENTLY respond (if that is possible). Really, "dude," try to read a LITTLE bit of the literature you so sweepingly dismiss before you rave on.
Or, you can simply continue to entertain, like the court fool.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 12, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
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I get very excited when Science and Faith issues run smack into one another and offer cross-verifying support.
There is verifiable empirical data and evidence that what GOD says is true. Some people need this evidence and GOD is wonderfully supplying it. Just as "Doubting Thomas" would not believe in Jesus as the Resurrected Messiah unless he put his hands in the actual nail print scars within Jesus's hands and then, and only then, would he believe. What did Jesus do when he saw Thomas? He let Thomas put his hands into the nail prints scars within Jesus's own hands.
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/doubting-thomas-faq.htm
GOD is doing that today, but in a modern way.
I've said it before and I will say it again. In the end, Science and Faith in God will one day meet as one.
It gets closer everyday.
The oldest man-made temple ruins on Earth discovered near where the Bible describes the "Garden of Eden."
Mysteries - Is This the Garden of Eden? Part 1/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RrKXJ4jfPg&feature=related
Mysteries Is This the Garden of Eden? Part 2/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9xfcnUW_tY&feature=related
Do these mysterious stones mark the site of the Garden of Eden?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1157784/Do-mysterious-stones-mark-site-Garden-Eden.html
A plethora of Archeology discoveries that just do not fit our official understanding and history of the development of modern man. Man has a secret history that the Archeological scientific community is just not willing to face. Plenty of physical evidence of things just not accepted or explainable in the "official" development and migration of modern man.
The Book of Enoch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch
Klaus Dona: The Hidden History of the Human Race
March 2010
http://projectavalon.net/lang/en/klaus_dona_en.html
The Miracle of the timing of the Star of Bethlehem, and the celestial phenomenon that happened on the day of Jesus's crucifiction. Provable using Keplar's Laws of Planetary Motion and software such as "Starry Night."
http://thestarofbethlehemmovie.com/
The abundant verification of the accuracy of the Bible through Biblical Archeology.
http://biblicalarcheology.net/
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a008.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/home.html
The Modern Miracle and Discovery of Bible Code. It was meant for only our time. We had to have the computer first to really discover it.
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 1 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blbLke9kLIk
The Shroad of Turin. It does date from the time of Christ. It does have written language on it that identifies Jesus of Nazareth, and indicates his death. It is a burial clothe, and now we can verify the actual face and body form in 3D using the latest in science and technology. This is incredibly wonderful and amazing . . .
Researcher: Faint writing seen on Shroud of Turin
By ARIEL DAVID, Associated Press Writer Ariel David, Associated Press Writer
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=9143928
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/8823336
We actually might now know what Jesus looked like! How incredible is that? To me it is very incredible and strenghtens and edifies my faith.
I caught the end of this program on the history channel and recorded it. I'll have to purchase the DVD to see the entire program.
The Real Face of Jesus:
http://www.history.com/shows/the-real-face-of-jesus
Check out the companion website. There are 3 good articles to read.
Purchase the DVD:
http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=261203&v=history&ecid=PRF-2102484&pa=PRF-2102484
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 12, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
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Klimmer -- "Science and Faith in God will one day meet as one."
There's never ever been any kind of separation between the two.
Since God is omnipotent and omnipresent.
Without truth there can be no God since truth = God.
Even total gross materialistic science ultimately relies on "TRUTH".
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Apr 12, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
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As I am not a philosophy professor / small business owner, I cannot devote nearly enough time to properly address all the issues that have recently been raised.
All I'd like to say is that I am agnostic (intellectually that is, because I freely admit to a gut-feeling of atheism) because when I boil down all my reading, experience, speculations, etc., I'm left with no solid proof either way, just a very strong sense of the improbability of god.
It is possible that a god created everything, but the further you get away from that--I mean the more you try to say about the nature of god, still with no real evidence--the less probable it becomes.
edit-- don't even bother Werner, I know, I know --speculations!!! The horror!!!
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nasagal
Trad climber
South Bay SF
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Apr 12, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
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Alpinist909-
extraordinary effort to persuade self and others.
Saul of Tarsus,(Saint Paul later) would be proud....
if you are right, no worries
if not.....
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Apr 12, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
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HFCS...
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Apr 12, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
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if you are right, no worries
if not.....
"Suppose we grant that there is indeed some small chance that God exists. Nevertheless, it could be said that you will lead a better, fuller life if you bet on his not existing, than if you bet on his existing and therefore squander your precious time on worshipping him, sacrificing to him, fighting and dying for him, etc."
Richard Dawkins
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 12, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
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Sums it up right here-
"Seems to me, we have to get rid of philosophy (as an academic discipline) because it really is such a ball and chain on progress." Peter Atkins
Beyond Belief: Enlightenment 2.0
Here, Peter Atkins says it better than me.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5497989647634565004#
Material esp relevant to this thread and this particular page and the value of philosophy as an academic discipline starts at time counter 9:45.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 12, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
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Who you gonna believe about philosophy, HFCS? Peter Atkins or the top-gun scientists and philosopher (Dennett)? You've got a conflict to resolve here. Good luck with that. Keep us posted.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 12, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
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"Which Bible did you as#@&%es read?" The Old Testament.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 12, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
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From this I conclude lap band specialists should try very hard to get into heaven.
Gobee's heaven at least.
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go-B
climber
This side of Heaven
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Apr 12, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
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Weschrist / Donini
That group of fundamentalist Westboro Baptist Church protesters at the funeral of Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, who was killed in Iraq, the son of Albert Snyder, were wrong to do that and I want to thank Mr. Snyder for his son's service!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 12, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
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More Peter Atkins-
"Theology obfuscates. I don't know what philosophy does, it interferes with understanding. And science illuminates."
Yeah, Peter Atkins is a "top-gun" scientist.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 13, 2010 - 12:13am PT
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I updated my previous posts with links.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Apr 13, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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Wooo Hooo!
Unread crazy posts by crazy poster now have unclicked crazy links.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 13, 2010 - 12:48am PT
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Intellectual curiosity is beyond some people.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Apr 13, 2010 - 01:17am PT
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Curious intellectualism: Bible code and reptilian humanoid alien angels, etc.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 13, 2010 - 08:03am PT
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Yeah, Peter Atkins is a "top-gun" scientist.
So, typically, you ignore the pressing question: What are you gonna do with the conflict between Peter Atkins and OTHER top-gun scientists (and your hero, Dennett) regarding the value of philosophy? So far I see that you've got Atkins on your side. Dennett will oppose you! I've quoted two other (and can quote dozens more) scientists that will oppose you. You want to sweepingly dismiss philosophy as having no value. So, you gonna go with Atkins all by himself?
If so, then what are you gonna do with Dennett? If no, then are you ready to retract?
Answer the question. Can we get a straight answer from you on one SINGLE (and quite simple) question?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 13, 2010 - 08:07am PT
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I don't know what philosophy does, it interferes with understanding.
Now THAT'S some crystal clear thinking: "I don't know what x does. Oh, wait, it does y. Yes, that's what it does. x does y, which is what I don't know what it does. Oh, wait a minute. Let's try that all over again. Ok... slowly now... I don't know what x does.... Oh, dang it! Do over! Really slowly now...."
ROFL
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 13, 2010 - 09:20am PT
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Here is your brain on Atkins:
Yet science is progressively advancing toward complete knowledge, leaving religions bobbing about in its wake. Science is hard work, but the answers it hews from the rock face of ignorance are reliable.
From: http://www.closertotruth.com/participant/Peter-Atkins/5
Ok, let's see, we've got "complete knowledge" and "reliable answers" as science's glory-points compared to ALL religions.
---------------------
Hmmm... just a very brief list concerning fairly recent science:
phlogiston (believed for hundreds of years, despite clear evidence to the contrary; eventually superseded by oxidation theory)
caloric theory (competitor to phlogiston; believed alongside it by many)
universal aether (best explanation for about 100 years until Einstein)
Newtonian physics (still ok for everyday use, but technically INCORRECT)
anything by Freud (infamous fabricator of data; totally debunked theory of psychoanalysis, after it was the dominant paradigm for many decades)
Piltdown Man (touted by mainstream science for more than 40 years; obvious hoax to anybody not WANTING to see a "missing link")
Steady State cosmology (dominant paradigm for decades)
The "stress" or "acid" theory of stomach ulcers (mainstream for many decades; only recently replaced by a bacterial theory)
"Type A" linkage to heart disease (believed for decades; recently discredited)
Geosyncline theory (believed for about 100 years; more recently replaced by Plate Tectonics)
Classical Electrodynamics (believed for about 50 years, then quickly morphed into Quantum Electrodynamics, which is fundamentally different)
---------------------
And the list goes on and on.
So, it seems that science's "complete answers" are about as "reliable" as how "functional" an idea seems in YOUR particular time slice! As though "functional" could equate to "true." LOL
Most recently we have Global Warming (claimed to be a result of human activity on Earth). Slowly but surely gaining discredit, as more and more incidents of falsified and "massaged" data surface, and as more and more alternative, non-human-involved explanations emerge. Widely believed by most scientists for more than a decade, but in time this, too, will go down to ashes.
The idea that "science" proceeds from glorious victory to glorious victory is simply not borne out by the historical facts.
Finally, the worst thing about your brain on Atkins is how he conflates the questions: In this quoted passage, he fails to recognize that science is primarily doing physics (broadly construed), while religion is primarily doing metaphysics (broadly construed). To say that "science leaves religions bobbing about in its wake" is like saying, "Driving a stick-shift car is leaving scuba-diving in its wake." There can, of course, be SOME points of overlap; but they are really ABOUT two different activities.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 13, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
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Bottom line- I'd rather go camping and climbing with 3 scientists and/or engineers than 3 philosophy phds.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 13, 2010 - 02:00pm PT
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god blessed texas.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 13, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
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Bottom line is that I'd rather go camping with ANY intellectually honest person than one that is not.
Answer the question, resolve your now-public internal conflict, or just acknowledge that all you've got to work with is rant.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 13, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
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No answer yet.
Basically what you've got is that you've glommed onto a couple of the more vocal and rabid of the "new atheists," a few guys that do not represent the mainstream thinking on atheism among most scientists (or philosophers, even the secular ones), including the ones I have, and could, quote from the (one!) book I earlier mentioned.
You will not find MOST scientists supporting your strident, radical move from "scientific reliability" (which is a myth anyway) to conclusions about whether or not God exists or what His relation was to creation. MOST scientists recognize that these are metaphysical, rather than physical, questions.
But, you've got a few guys that are not mainstream in their thinking, and these are your heros; so you pin your intellectual development on reading a few books by these guys. Then you hop online and make a public fool of yourself.
Back up, "dude," take a deep breath, and really delve into the VAST literature on this subject. After a few years of reading and HONESTLY digesting a few thousand pages, PERHAPS you can emerge with a more balanced (and much less strident) perspective.
Or, perhaps not.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 14, 2010 - 10:48am PT
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Madbolter- We speak different languages, no use. Happy trails.
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Alpinist909
Mountain climber
Chesapeake
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Apr 14, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
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MB 1
Like I mentioned in an earlier post. Science generally questions a theory. They attempt to disprove idea's in search of the truth.
Religion, on the other hand, is just the opposite. You just believe. That all you have to do. Geeze. Now that I think of it, that would be soooooo much easier. And that is why it is so popular.
Camp fire stories that were written over centuries created by men who lived in a culture where 95% of the population could not read and write.
Before Christianity, there were other gods that were past down over the flames of many camp fires. For hundreds of thousands of years. The popular god of today is this just this flavor of the month. That's why there are hundreds of different denominations and they ALL think they are right and everyone else is wrong.
The people in power liked to keep the ill literate just that. Worked for Bush Jr, for a while.
Rule by fear. Bible does just that. Hell, that worked for the Bush administration for years.
(side note, I voted for the kook).
Mel Gibson's Apocalipto (sp?) was a great example. Loping off heads to keep their god satisfied with the peoples blood. And the god was full, he eclipsed the sun (or so the witch doctor said so). Yet the head witch doctor knew their would be an eclipse. Their culture watched the stars and knew when the eclipse was coming. But the people were uneducated and fell for it hook line and sinker.
Ahhh... that was a long time ago. People are smarter now. We have Starbucks and the internet.
I am sure you are well versed on the history of the Mormen church. Under The Banner of Heaven is a good read to get you caught up the basics for those of you that are not.
Their bible was written by a convicted scam artist. A good portion stolen from the bible. Yet the Mormen religion continues to grow by leaps and bounds.
opps....
I forgot my fun quote of the day..
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
I wonder why god did not think much of women. Ohhhh.... that's because the bible was written by men who lived in a culture similar to ones that exist today. Cultures that suppress women and...... oh wait, that sounds like some of the people who BLEW UP THE WORLD TRADE CENTERS.
American Theocracy by Kevin Phillips. Good book.
Study of Mythology.... another good read.
God is not Great..... some logic going on in that book.
Inside the Revolution by Joel Rosenburg. He's jewish so some might be offended. God fearing dude
Survival of the Sickest by Dr Sharon Moalem. Good fun
More great quotes from the bible are coming. Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere any time soon ; )
Let me find the one where they mention witches. Funny this is, there's no such thing. God must have forgotten. He such a kidder
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Apr 14, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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"I maintain there is much more wonder in science than in pseudoscience. And in addition, to whatever measure this term has any meaning, science has the additional virtue, and it is not an inconsiderable one, of being true."
 Carl Sagan
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 15, 2010 - 05:55am PT
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"I maintain there is much more wonder in science than in pseudoscience. And in addition, to whatever measure this term has any meaning, science has the additional virtue, and it is not an inconsiderable one, of being true." Carl Sagan
And exactly WHAT is the difference between science and pseudoscience? Which was Freudian psychology?
And "true?" Oh give me a break! What PART of "science" is true? Is SCIENCE just TRUE? ALL of it? EVERY claim? EVERY theory? EVERY supposed entity and relation?
You sad saps fall down and worship at the feet of a man like Sagan and then bash people for believing an ancient book? Seems like the book has a lot more going for it!
Answer the above questions, and then we can try to make SOME sense of what Sagan said in the quote. You're gonna have a LOT harder time making any sense of that quote than you initially think!
With quotes like that one, you make my case FOR me. I don't even have to try! LOL
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 15, 2010 - 06:26am PT
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Religion, on the other hand, is just the opposite. You just believe. That all you have to do. Geeze. Now that I think of it, that would be soooooo much easier. And that is why it is so popular.
Straw man alert! Straw man alert!
And your "campfire stories" line was SUCH a yawner! Your entire argument boils down to the same thing again and again: "There are things in the Bible (taken entirely out of context) that don't make sense to me. For something to be 'true' it has to make perfect sense to me. So, the Bible is not true."
Lame!
Just like HFCS, you exhibit no intellectual honesty. You take rewarmed arguments that you have lifted from a few popularized pundits of the "new atheism" and think you are so intellectual. Having never bothered to understand the cultural or historical context of your out-of-context passages, you straw man mercilessly.
So, let me ask you a single, simple question. If you cannot answer it, then you instantly reveal yourself for the intellectual poser you are.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND CURRENT QUANTUM THEORY?
If you say, "yes," then you lie. It is arguable that NOBODY really "understands" it, and YOU certainly don't! Don't run off now to Wikipedia and quote stuff you don't understand!
If you say, "no," then you simply accept on authority and "just believe" that IT is true, when YOU actually know nothing about it.
Don't hand me lame lines like, "But engineers use it to make things like microwave ovens."
Pathetic! YOU don't know that IT is what they use! YOU don't even have good reason to suspect! Engineers simply employ some pragmatic "functionality" (the way things seem to work experimentally... in this present time slice). Not one iota of those experimental results "confirms" the theorized entities and relations of quantum theory. And THAT is because it is impossible in principle to CONFIRM anything about any scientific theory. So, microwave ovens give you exactly ZERO evidence that quantum theory is TRUE! And YOU know nothing whatsoever about the relations between physics and microwave ovens!
The average person (yourself included) has NO comprehension of current physics (MORE than 95% cannot 'read' and 'write' in THAT new language), yet you accept the "campfire stories" handed down to you by the "elders" of that "clan." And YOU cannot assert that the "evidence supports" the claims those "elders" make, because YOU cannot in principle correlate the claims with the evidence!
You are as blind and "faithful" to physics (despite the long, sordid history of failed theories) as you accuse Bible believers of being regarding their authority. You appeal to authority in the exact same way. Your "elders" make just as esoteric and (by YOU) unsubstantiated claims as you think the Bible does. And taking statements of physicists entirely out of context produces just as apparently nutty (even more so) sounding "results" as your "quotes" from the Bible do.
String Theory??? It is to laugh! Let's see how this works:
So, we've got two theories. BOTH simply MUST be true. Yet they are fundamentally inconsistent! So, what can we do? Well, let's see.... Hmmm.... (decades of failed attempts at an account).... Well, we've really run out of options at this point.... Nothing makes any sense.... Uhhh... Joe! Remember that crusty old "string theory" business from way back? Maybe we can dust THAT thing off and get some mileage out of it! Ohhh... good thought! Let's see... seven dimensions? Will that work? Uhh... no... different problems, but the thing just won't work. Say! Let's try TEN dimensions! Hey, getting closer. We just need some different constants here. Uhh... what about the dimensions, Joe? WHERE are they? WHY can't we get ANY experimental evidence of them? Ahhh... right! Because they are very, very, very, very, very, very.... VERY small! Ohhh... I LIKE it!
Give me this one giant ROFL break! Tiny, tiny dimensions that we cannot in principle get any evidence of! Lots and lots of 'em! As many of 'em as it takes!
And you BELIEVE that crap??? Glass houses, baby! Glass houses!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 15, 2010 - 10:27am PT
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madbolter1 writes:
DO YOU UNDERSTAND CURRENT QUANTUM THEORY?
If you say, "yes," then you lie. It is arguable that NOBODY really "understands" it, and YOU certainly don't! Don't run off now to Wikipedia and quote stuff you don't understand!
How do you argue that "NOBODY really 'understands' it"?
I suppose you need to define what you mean by 'understand,' then you can argue. But quantum theory is understood, certainly. What is it that you don't understand?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 15, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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How do you argue that "NOBODY really 'understands' it"? I suppose you need to define what you mean by 'understand,' then you can argue. But quantum theory is understood, certainly. What is it that you don't understand?
Ooo... clever shift attempt, Ed. What I wrote has nothing whatsoever to do with MY understanding. What I wrote to Alpinist909 questions HIS understanding, since HE is the one claiming such a vast difference between his "knowledge" and the "blind faith" of Bible believers.
My first point is that FOR HIM, his relation to the claims of quantum theory are EXACTLY on a par with the relation claimed between Bible believers and their "authority." From an epistemological point of view, the nature of justifications to believe are identical.
My second point was that ANY corpus of claims, taken out of context and set up for straw man tactics, can appear utterly and entirely ridiculous. The fact that things can be made to appear ridiculous that way does not indicate that they ARE ridiculous. My point here was that it is a very common "pot shot" tactic to quote out of context from the Bible and "triumphantly" tout how ridiculous the "campfire stories" are.
What a ho-hum tactic. A credible account can be given of each and every one of the supposed "problem texts," although background knowledge is required. It's easy to come up with "ridiculous" claims in ANY venue, and then adequately responding to those claims is a lengthy process.
So, I pointed out how "ridiculous" modern physics can be made to sound, and I pointed out how inadequate our Alpinist909 would be to "respond" to such charges.
Perhaps YOU, Ed, could give us an account that would make string theory SEEM less ridiculous (actually, being quite well-read on the subject, I doubt it), although such an account would NOT be brief or trivial! And that is my overarching point. Taking pot shots is a cheap tactic, especially when you know that by engaging in it you are giving your opponent no option but to write volumes and volumes in an attempt to "respond." I can pot-shot string theory, and it takes books to respond!
Let's cut the crap and acknowledge what an unfair debate tactic that really is. Otherwise, my "response" will be merely to pot shot tit-for-tat in like fashion. For every "ridiculous" Bible passage Alpinist wants to cite, I will simply cite claims from modern science that are just as ridiculous on the face of them!
This is a stupid way to "debate," and it merely denotes the lack of intellectual honesty of those that simply want to take drive-by pot shots at the beliefs of other that they simply don't understand and can't be bothered to treat with philosophical charity.
While many people that believe in the Bible are pretty idiotic about it, that does not mean that believing in the Bible is idiotic; any more than the fact that most people that believe in modern science are idiotic about it does not mean that modern science is idiotic!
If we're going to debate, then let's do it fairly, rather than with drive-by pot shots. On that point, it is quite true that HFCS and I are talking "different languages!"
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 15, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
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Now that is some skilled debating .......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 15, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
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madbolter1 wrote:
Perhaps YOU, Ed, could give us an account that would make string theory SEEM less ridiculous
not sure that I could, but it is probably not relevant that you, or anyone else, thinks that String Theory "seems ridiculous." The sine qua non of a physical theory, that it is predictive, is really the only requirement of the theory, aside from being mathematically logical (though even this may be provisional, especially if the mathematics doesn't exist yet).
On this point, String Theory is an explanation of the current universe, as we know it, it's predictions are not currently within reach of experiment, though this situation may change as the theory is better developed.
Newton sounded "ridiculous" in his day, it didn't mean he was wrong.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Apr 15, 2010 - 01:46pm PT
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Locker!
King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
But a "BLOW UP DOLL"...now that would a been one kinky king!!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Apr 15, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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I would never claim that science is perfect--scientists are constantly testing, improving, refuting, discarding and discovering. So I agree that pointing out scientific mistakes is a cheap tactic.
But I don't think that pointing out ridiculous bible passages and ridiculing the laughable explanations for them is a cheap tactic when the bible is purportedly the product of a perfect being.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 15, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
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MB1:
I think Ed has pretty well discussed this in his post.
Science really does not make any “claims”. It gives you a method that allows you to predict what you will get when you make a measurement. There is no requirement for belief. If a calculation works you just use it. And when a different calculation that has been shown to be better comes along, you switch over to the new calculation.
People who “believe” are doing something that is partially similar. But only partially. If one finds that “believing” some old story makes them feel better then it just works for them. So they just believe it. But that is where any similarity ends. “Believing” the story does not allow one to predict. The people who believe the rapture will come next Tuesday, or whatever, are trying to make such a “faithful” leap. So far at least, the predictive power has been nil.
Quite a bit of time has gone by without producing one good prediction, so the expectation of getting a successful prediction in the next week or so – becomes smaller with each passing year.
And he is on point to ask for a defintion of "to understand."
The meaning of the word is not obvious.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 15, 2010 - 02:18pm PT
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Science really does not make any “”claims””.
Indirectly though the claims are always "In the future".
The knowledge is not perfect, it's always defective by imperfect beings.
No sane mane would ULTIMATELY take to such theorizing and speculations.
This a koan ....
If one learns one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and zero, then he has studied the entirety of mathematics, because mathematics means simply changing the places of these ten figures.
That’s all.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Apr 15, 2010 - 02:25pm PT
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If one learns one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and zero, then he has studied the entirety of mathematics, because mathematics means simply changing the places of these ten figures.
http://harekrishna.com/col/books/SRE/SSR/caitanya.html
What does one learn if he only cuts and pastes what others say?
Edit -- your koan is paradoxical, but it fails to demonstrate the inadequacy of logic or math.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 15, 2010 - 02:41pm PT
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"The knowledge is not perfect, it's always defective by imperfect beings."
Werner you are theorizing when you talk of something "perfect" in the real world. Here I use the word "theorizing" as meaning a process that takes place in the brain. We can not measure anything in the real world with "perfect" precision. We can always think of a precision ten times greater than the precision we currently possess.
"Perfect" is a theory. One that has yet to be seen.
We do perceive perfection however. When we read a story over and over again, particularly when we are under stress and the brain is rewiring itself in real time, synapses are exercized and strengthened. When this synapse has been strengthened enough it always repeats. Just the fact that it repeats is perceived as "perfection."
So the power "perfection" , as a concept, has over us arises from our fear. The fear we are unable to predict the future and to control our fate. A quite reasonable fear, as we are in fact unable to predict the future or to control our fate.
When afraid we recount an old story to ourselves so as to feel once more something, anything, that we can predict.
Faith is a refuge.
A mental "device."
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 15, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
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Newton sounded "ridiculous" in his day, it didn't mean he was wrong.
Actually, he WAS wrong. If Einstein was correct (still an open question, btw), then Newton was WRONG! The fact the Newtonian Mechanics can still be USED (again that pesky pragmatism vs. truth thingy) in a more or less crude fashion does not mean that he was CORRECT! On every substantive point, the Einsteinian universe does not resemble the Newtonian universe.
The problem with scientists is that they continually conflate "it works so far" with "it is true."
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 15, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
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He is on point to ask for a defintion of "to understand."
Not so, as I argued. Red herring.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 15, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
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"Perfect" is a theory. One that has yet to be seen.
NOT TRUE
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Apr 15, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
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The appropriate audience of Madbolter1: go-b and company.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 15, 2010 - 02:53pm PT
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Science really does not make any “claims”.
False. Science makes a litany of claims. Because these claims are implications of theories makes them no less claims.
Here's a claim: "The universe is really ten-dimensional."
Here's a claim: "The Earth is about 4.5 billion years old."
The list of claims goes on and on. When we ask why we should believe ANY of them, people like you point back to the theories and the "predictive" method.
HOW you derive your claims is another question. But don't deny that there are claims!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 15, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
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So far at least, the predictive power has been nil.
The fact that Bible believers have often been idiotic, making claims and predictions far beyond what the Bible itself entitles them to, does not mean that the Bible is garbage. Just as scientist often cringe at the "popular accounts" of their work appearing in magazines and on TV, I often cringe at the sorts of "accounts" of the Bible I hear from well-meaning but superficial Christians. Because the Discovery Channel portrays things incorrectly, does that mean that the underlying science is bogus?
And the "predictive power" you're asking from the Bible was never its intent. You ask the Bible to play like science, and I don't agree that it can/should be evaluated this way.
Now let me hasten to say that I am appalled by the current mainstream Christian thinking that is touting "creation science" to be taught in schools, etc. I guess I'm not a "mainstream Christian" (well, I knew that, since I'm a Sabbath-keeper), but here is just another point at which I diverge wildly from the mainstream thinking. I think that Christians trying to make the Bible do science are hugely mistaken for many reasons (beyond the scope of what can properly be discussed on a forum thread)!
So, perhaps the problem is that, understandably, anti-Christians are reacting to the mainstream Christian efforts to teach the Bible in science classrooms, as though the Bible was also acting like some kind of meta-theory that can make scientific predictions.
Regarding other sorts of "predictive power" it has, to that I can attest, although you would understandably call the "hits" subjective and unverifiable. No problem. As I said, it's not science. But that fact does not make the Bible false. Scientism (with its associated empiricism/materialism) is but one world view, and it is arguably an incorrect one. But that's another huge topic.
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