Discussion Topic |
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 29, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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Yes. Justice!
Nice to know Kansas doesn't have as many ol' time
religious fundamentalists in the court system as the Muslim world.
How tragic though. Why is this man going down?
For "living up to" the traditional beliefs of his religion...
archaic as they are, formulated in the bronze age,
institutionalized over millenia and maintained by millions even today.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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Sweet!!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
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Good News.
The jury reached the verdict, too, in less than two hours.
This verdict suggests Kansas is modernizing
and faith discipline practice (today by and large still in the form of the religious model) is evolving.
It is a tragedy: Scott Roeder grew up believing in "the ghost in the machine" religious concept, that the ghost, ensouled by Yahweh, needs protection. And now he'll be paying the price. The price for this antiquated belief. The price for not adapting to more modern thought.
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
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Whew, good news. I wasn't really worried, but I still feel some relief.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:04pm PT
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Yeah, Franky, surely. Just because something is being tried in court does not at all mean it will be adjudicated correctly. And I am relieved here too.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
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"Please don't blame Roeders actions on Christians HFCS. The man is obviously very mentally ill."
Arent they all?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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I don't know that I'd call him insane.
He was using a "justifiable murder" defense. He was arguing that murder was OK as he was preventing other murders. It's pretty sickening that he was even allowed to use this defense.
But he very clearly thought through what he was going to do and then carefully executed it. And it was based on beliefs held by a lot of people.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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One news report said the defense and prosecution presentations were so similar the jury had no difficulty. It reached a decision in 37 minutes. The facts of the case were never contested. The defense constructed its case in an attempt to get the judge to reduce the charge to voluntary manslaughter.
Roeder admitted making two separate trips to Tiller's church with the aim of murdering him so premeditation was self apparent. Tiller's facility had previously been firebombed and there had been a number of other events perpetrated by abortion activist groups.
I really would think there has to be additional enforcement action regarding the other incidents based upon terrorism statutes. I don't know how else to describe what these groups are doing.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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I agree John. And I guess in early March we will hear the sentencing.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Jan 29, 2010 - 03:45pm PT
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Agreed!!!
Hate to say it but what happened should shine the light on the religiouity of anyone who professes to be religious....
Or christian, at the very least...
On a side note.. the hospital the Dr worked at has replaced the doctor who was killed with a new doc who does the work at half the price...
So attendance at the hospital has gone up!
(ok, I have no factual stats to support that last statement.. mainly becuase it is meant as a joke)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
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We ARE changing. At the individual level and on up, through communities to nations to the species at large. So there's hope. It just seems some times it's happening so SLOWLY...
Ever more of us are realizing: Beliefs matter. Beliefs are not inconsequential. We live our beliefs. In fact, it's easy to see beliefs (i.e., mental "holdings") as behavioral drivers.
The sad tragedy in the Scott Roeder case is his "behavioral drivers" (that is, his beliefs) are/were antiquated. He failed to update his behavioral drivers like increasing millions have.
Please don't blame Roeders actions on Christians HFCS. The man is obviously very mentally ill.
I don't know, how does one define "mentally ill" or "insane." Was Andrea Yates insane when she drowned her children in the fear that they might go to hell were she not to? in the hope that dying young would guarantee them eternal life in heaven? of course taking into account that her Christian religion installed in her head (through a life time of upbringing) specific models for how the world works and how life works that differed from modernity's. To her, hell was as real as Earth. To her, all of God Yahweh's Kingdom was a three-layer cake.
Were not her actions "in-line" with her beliefs? Were not Roeder's actions in-line with his beliefs (his mental behavioral drivers)? If so, then in this one sense, Yates and Roeder were not insane. Yet...
Yet, arguably one is "insane" for harboring antiquated models (for how the world works and how life works) formulated in the bronze age and institutionalized over centuries-- and applying them in modernity, in the 21st century. Hmm...
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:02pm PT
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Just as radical Muslims distort the Koran to justify terrorist acts, there is a significant number of Christian Fundamentalists (radical Christians) who distort the teachings of Christ and the Bible to justify crimes of hate and terrorism.
And to those who object to calling these "so-called "christians"** terrorists, what else to you call someone who justifies the use of violence to obtain social and/or political change?
** There is nothing Christian about them, imho.
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gazela
Boulder climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
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It does seem remarkable that the people who reflexively maintain that Islamist terrorists do not represent mainstream Muslim philosophy are the first to ascribe the murder of an abortionist by a "Christian" loony to basic Christian teachings. Who among us are really the intolerant ones?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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Gazela, who's doing that, what your post says? It's a bit confusing.
Take government bureaucrats, for example, and let's personalize it. George Bush, for instance. He would say...
Islamist terrorists do not represent mainstream Muslim philosophy
In fact, he said it ad nauseum. Yet he would not
ascribe the murder of an abortionist by a "Christian" loony to basic Christian teachings
So it's a bit confusing- your post.
But I for one DO ascribe the doctor's murder to an Christian fundamentalist who--operating off of an antiquated lifeworks model-- believed he was killing a killer of babies (baby persons), persons since conception, since zygotic stage because of ensoulment by God Jehovah, of a ghost.
As was said on another thread:
"Some guy in Kansas (Scott Roeder) was just found guilty on all counts for murdering a doctor because he "lived up to" the ancient teaching that there is a ghost in the body that drives the body, that vacates the body upon death of the body, that even though the ghost lives on, God Jehovah hates it when man causes this separation so much he must be killed for it."
One more thing: Islamic terrorists do more accurately represent the Word in the Koran than do the moderates. They follow through on what the "Word of God" says to the letter while moderate Muslims, like moderate Christians, don't. The latter either (a) don't read the Word at all or (b) take the Word as literature not literal law or literal truth-- or at least they behave so. (e.g., working on the Sabbath, not stoning to death adulterers or infidels, etc.) Thank goodness.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jan 29, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
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Men who use violence against abortionists are not men at all.
The term COWARD comes to mind, as they fight for something they have no business fighting about.
my .02
edit: his days in prison will be what he deserves...
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jan 29, 2010 - 06:34pm PT
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Amen.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 29, 2010 - 06:38pm PT
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I don't think he was insane or clinically ill either as some have said. Just a bad dude with some fanatical messed up ideals and convictions who obviously knew exactly what he was doing. Its good to see that the jury didn't pull some kind of O.J. on this one and that some semblance of right and wrong still exists.
He probably would have gotten off the hook in California.
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Blinky
Trad climber
North Carolina
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Jan 29, 2010 - 06:50pm PT
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Couldn't happen to a better guy.
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Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
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Two versus come to mind...
Thou shall not kill.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
------
As for Abortion... It is not a black and white issue. A friend had a child develop without a liver and kidney. It would have died at birth and put the mother at risk. Plus, how about pregnancies from rape? How about the pregnancy of an eight year old girl from her abuser? Or a pregnancy that is obviously too much for the mother's body to handle. That if it is allowed to progress it will kill her and the child?
People really need to step back and think before going off on some religious crusade. They should not be judging, be more forgiving and merciful. If they did that, they would be "true Christians" instead of vicious, vindictive, idiots who use the Bible as an excuse for their conduct.
I am glad the idiot is going to jail. I hope he stays there.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
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Anastasia- So what's your personal take on the Old Testament?
More specifically, how would you answer Roeder if he told you he considered himself a traditional Christian (following Original Christianity circa 100ad) and was doing his best to "live up to" Moses Law? that according to Jesus himself, his work in the New Testament was not to supplant the Old Testament (esp the Books of Moses).
P.S. I know it's a difficult question. But it's worth exploring because this "difficulty" is exactly what's mucking things up in our modernity.
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Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
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Well... Growing up Greek Orthodox which is one of the oldest sects. Add the fact that we have a few priest in the family. Plus, please note that the oldest copy of the New Testament that our modern day Bible is translated from is located on the monastic island Patmos that is right next to my home island. (We supported their existence for 800 plus years.) *Also note that on Patmos no women or outside visitors were allowed there until the 1950's.
I know a little about christianity...
I would say he is not Christian. Nope...
Also know that the first Christians wouldn't even fight in a war and many were vegetarians. It took Constantine a bit of propaganda to get them to believe that it was alright to fight. Emperor Constantine claimed he saw a cross in a dream, etc. etc. which let him win his battle with Maxentius. He spread this across his subjects which brought him a large amounts of new recruits.
Anastasia
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:11pm PT
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While I disagree with Tiller's late-term abortion practice, that doesn't mean you kill the guy. It wasn't Scott's job to judge the man. That's equally wrong!
These fundamentalists are sick. The ones who go to dead soldiers' funerals and say they deserved it, the ones who say fags should die. It's sickening and they need to be confronted by more reasonable Christians. People like Micronut and Anastasia.
I'm happy to do it too, but I'd probably get agro and start dropping f-bombs on 'em. But I'd be willing to try.
It's totally insensitive what they do in the name of God. God weeps when he's see's this sh#t and says, "Fail!!!".
EDIT: HFCS, anybody who takes the Bible word-for-word literally all the time, I think misses the bigger picture.
You have to keep the Biblical thought in the context of the message it's delivering.
The Bible may say that laying down with another man is wrong, and maybe God smited somebody, doesn't mean that you should go out and 'kill fags'. It just means that they thought it was wrong. It was for God to judge.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 08:16pm PT
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Anastasia-
Let me see if I have this right.
So you would say someone is not Christian if (a) he believes in the divinity of Jesus of Nazereth, (b) he believes in the Nicene Creed, and (c) he believed in following the books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus to the letter? (e.g., Breaking the Sabbath is punishable by death.)
EDIT: Bluering- and what I'm saying is this difficulty is mucking things up and till we work through it at all levels it won't go away.
EDIT: Sorry about the misspelling Anastasia. It was a slip as I have a background, too, in ancient Greek and "anastasis" is a word.
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Gene
Social climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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HFCS,
Go choke on a shellfish.
At least spell the lady's name correctly.
gm
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:35pm PT
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HFCS, if you are Christian (of most denominations), there are very simple rules to follow. And even if you break the rules, you can be redeemed.
There are, however, some things that are not so easily redeemed. I'm not a Biblical scholar but suicide is one of those things. Murder is another. To murder (killing the innocent) is to take God's power into your own hands. That is wrong and is a tragic sin. It is different than killing, to kill in defense.
The bottom line is that you have to take the whole Bible to understand the context of these laws. You can't take a phrase of a book and exact justice based on that. There's an all encompassing message from the Bible. Take it all in and you'll see.
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Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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Nicene Creed was in the 4th century so it isn't within 100 years of Christ. You asked about what a Christian was a 100 years AD and I answered that.
As for what is a "Christian;" the truest definition is from the Bible.
Being a "good Samaritan" (by the way a Samaritan was a worshiper of idols) is being a good Christian. He was more accepted by God than the man who was a Priest/ a man who preached the "word" but didn't help, didn't assist his fellow, and left him to die on the side of the road.
You can claim all affiliations to Christ but... If you don't give kindness, mercy, love, generosity and forgiveness; you missed the boat. I don't care which domination, sect, or version of Bible you read; you sadly missed the whole point and are not "Christian" in the truest sense. Christian is not the name of a religion or of a person. Being Christian is the sacrifice of self for others. It is being unselfish and giving.
AFS
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
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Apparently the maximum sentence is 50 years, effectively a life sentence - assuming that a friendly, "pro-life" governor doesn't commute it. Still, it leaves you wondering. If the usual penalty there for murder - execution - was a possibility, would the "pro-lifers", who are also often vociferously in favour of capital punishment, be in favour of it in this case? Would the "pro-choicers", who are often opposed to capital punishment, oppose it?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
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Anastasia, Bluering-
Mighty Hiker raises an interesting aside: Are you pro-capital punishment?
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Gene
Social climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:56pm PT
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Capital punishment should be banned. Serves no purpose except to excite the rabble.
The unborn are innocent. Most of those who suffer capital punishment are knott.
Just an observation.
g
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
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I do currently support capital punishment in extreme cases. And I'm anti-abortion in most cases, for the reason Gene stated. One is the epitomy of innocence and the other is the opposite.
I don't like seeing people die but in cases where children are raped, brutalized to suffer, and then killed. Yeah, I support capital punishment.
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
Arkansas, I suppose
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Jan 29, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
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Derp!
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 29, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
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Come on guys, it would be foolish to sit here and discuss whether this fella was a Christian or not. Regardless of what he said he believes. When a person's claims and his actions don't jive, action trumps. You are more what you do than what you say or believe.
It is clear that his life did not reflect a changed heart and a life committed to growing near to and emulating Jesus Christ.
Murder is always a sad day no matter who the victim is.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 29, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
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This verdict suggests Kansas is modernizing
and faith discipline practice (today by and large still in the form of the religious model) is evolving.
You have an incredibly ignorant and intolerant view of your fellow citizens, (Is it just because they are from flyover country?)
I'd wager a jury from the same region would have reached the same verdict in 1810
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jan 29, 2010 - 10:44pm PT
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Kansas is a little "soft" on 1st degree murder...Put him in Texas....or NV. POS Fundamentalist ignorant....but I stray on Friday nights.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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Well said, micronut...
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 29, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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Just keepin it real Blue.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
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You have an incredibly ignorant...
TGT- I'd take that bet. Let me guess, you're a Christian conservative republican. FYI, I alluded to Kansas for its recent history. Are you up on current affairs...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_evolution_hearings
The fact that this murder trial took place in Kansas-- in large part over conservative religious issues-- made the outcome anything but certain. Given the wide cross-section of juries these days, more than a few of us were holding our breath.
You can bet your best camalot that in 1810-- the year you specified-- Kansans adhered to OT teaching a great deal more than they do today. Tsk.
Yeah, just researched you. You mockingly called Obama the "philosopher king." That speaks volumes. Better a philosopher king than a moose-huntin' queen who thinks humans and dinosaurs coexisted.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
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Yeah, micronut, you're a better man than myself. I mean that too. Sometimes my anger and patience with people gets the better of me. I do realize that. You seem to maintain a calm that I just can't achieve. I wonder though if my 'deficit' is truly a bad thing. Some people serve different roles in the grand scheme. This kinda struck me personally...
You are more what you do than what you say or believe.
Meaning I truly am an as#@&%e, LOL! But I don't intend to be one, I just say things differently than you, Lynne, or Cragman. It comes from having abandoned my faith for a while. And after returning to it, I see things differently and the mean-spirited nature of certain people as needing a dose of their own medicine.
You have to communicate in their 'language'.
Anyway, I keep trying. I have a ways to go.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2010 - 12:03am PT
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Alas, too bad the Kansas conservative Christian Board of Education 2005 didn't have this chick for their mentor...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nTnjx-JRzE&feature=sub
Food for Thought: The Christian Church today is no longer "an institution of higher education." This speaks volumes as to (a) why it's under fire and (b) its future.
Long ago, it chose to fight science (in the subjects of how the world works and how life works) rather than adapt to its methods, revelations and story. Bad choice. Kinda like Scott Roeder.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 30, 2010 - 12:35am PT
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High Fructose,
Lemme comment on some of your statements.
"Food for Thought: The Christian Church today is no longer "an institution of higher education." This speaks volumes as to (a) why it's under fire and (b) its future."
1. The Christian Church isn't, and never was, an institution of higher education. It is the body of men and women who believe in and are committed to God. The God of the Bible and only that God. It's not a building or even an institution. Therefore, your conclusions are pretty thin.
Long ago, it chose to fight science (in the subjects of how the world works and how life works) rather than adapt to its revelations and story. Bad choice. Kinda like Scott Roeder.
Comparing the Christian Faith, in any way to a messed up man, a murderer, with hatred and vengeance at his core, shows you don't really know much about Christianity. A comment like that pretty much invalidates your arguments and shows you have some pretty strong feelings for some reason about something you know very little about.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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I just re-read my previous post. Don't interpret that to mean I'm a violent man. Just very confrontational and outspoken, sometimes even profane.
I'm a pretty peaceful man, believe it or not.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2010 - 01:05am PT
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Micronut- I like your TRs and believe (i.e., mentally hold) you're very nice. So let's agree to disagree on THIS subject. Okay?
So I think in your last post you intentionally played loose with language. (1) Of course, Christianity, the Church, whichever, is an institution. (2) Everything's relative: All through the early and medieval centuries, the peoples of religious cultures (e.g., Christian cultures in Europe) turned to their religious institutions for life guidance... not only for support and solidarity (social, spiritual) but for help in making sense of how the world works, for explaining how the world works. This was so because religions (for us in the West esp: Judaism to Christianity to Islam) were among the world's leading institutions of learning, education at the time. Esp for the general populace, of which perhaps only 10 per cent were literate.
As a dentist or md (I'm sorry I don't know which) I cannot believe you don't know any of this. And to remind us both, I've said nothing new on this thread. The conflict between science and religion has been raging on-- lately I just decided here on the Taco to participate. In short, all three Abrahamic religions make so-called truth-claims about-- I'll say it again-- how the world works and how life works. They're incorrect. It's straight forward as that-- they're incorrect. Which is why (the institutions of) religion and science are in conflict. It's the only reason they're in conflict.
When religions stop making so-called truth-claims about how the world works and how life works in terms of facts (what is), then the conflict will resolve and they won't be an obstacle in the path of science education (a subject dear to me) any longer.
EDIT (3) Regarding my allusion to Scott Roeder in my previous post: Bad choices like bad beliefs have consequences. It applies to "institutions" as well as to individuals.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:18am PT
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Yeah, High Fructose, I'm cool to disagree on this one. No big deal. In my opinion though, the Christian church isn't under fire or struggling or at risk....Sure, there is a trend over the last 20 years wherein marginal believers, who at one point loosely affiliated themselves with the faith are finding themselves no longer committed to the Church, the "numbers" of real Christians hasn't changed.
There is no longer much social reason to be a Christian as there once was. And perhaps the coming years will see more persecution of real Christians in America as it becomes more secularized. That just means it will bring into more clarity the real number of Christians out there. In comparison to the large numbers of churchgoers who kinda just filled the pews for reasons other than committment to their faith in Christ. That's cool by us Christians. Doesn't really change anything.
See you around. I'm off for a night climbing mission. Gotta get up in an hour.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:35am PT
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Hang in there, micronut, there still are a lot of us out there. Sometimes we stray off the trail, but we know where the base is...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:50am PT
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Ummm, actually, many Christians, and many Christian brands, are quite accepting of science, the theory of evolution, and the modern world. Maybe not fundamentalists, Baptists, and such, but still quite a lot. The Roman Catholic church has accepted evolution, and a universe that isn't geocentric, although of course it has a lot else to answer for.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
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Ummm, actually, many Christians, and many Christian brands, are quite accepting of science, the theory of evolution, and the modern world. Maybe not fundamentalists, Baptists, and such, but still quite a lot. The Roman Catholic church has accepted evolution, and a universe that isn't geocentric, although of course it has a lot else to answer for.
That's quite true, Anders. Well said.
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Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 07:17pm PT
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I am for capital punishment for extreme cases. I mean c'mon guys, when a socialpathic serial killer is left to sit around and watch t.v. despite how well it is documented on how he enjoyed killing... That is wrong. I personally think he is too dangerous to be left alive.
AFS
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 07:30pm PT
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I am for capital punishment for extreme cases. I mean c'mon guys, when a socialpathic serial killer is left to sit around and watch t.v. despite how well it is documented on how he enjoyed killing... That is wrong. I personally think he is too dangerous to be left alive.
AFS
Thank you. I'm glad a respected woman said that here. I feel the same way.
It's not a sadistic desire to to see people die, it's society's decision that there is no way for this person to be allowed back with others. He/she is a deadly threat to others. They have to be put down...like a rabid dog.
It's unfortunate. But sometimes there is no cure for inherent evil.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 10:21am PT
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Anastasia-
Bluering-
With all due respect, pretty darn inconsistent, your overall thinking here.
Gandi- You must be the change you want to see in the world.
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Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Not really...
Have you ever known a socialpath? I went to school with one and trust me, he is not a human being. A person that can inflict great harm and take such joy in it is not part of the human race. The key word I am using here is "joy." He was not acting out in anger, or jealousy, etc. He took "pleasure" in hurting people. Years later he was caught for rape and attempted murder.
I know down to my bones that when he is free, he will keep going. Some people really are evil.
I hope you never meet him or anyone like him.
AFS
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Gene
Social climber
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This thread is wandering into the question of capital punishment......
I believe it is something created by man trying to play God. Doesn't work for me.
Maybe the topic for yet another OT thread..... Maybe knott.
gm
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
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Today is judgment day for Scott Roeder.
Remember, he's a devout traditional Christian. His religious upbringing taught him that inside each of us is a ghost (a ghostly person) that was put there by Jehovah, that this ghostly person exists in the womb of the mother even in the embryonic or fetal state, that obedience to Jehovah requires protecting this ghostly person at all costs.
So Scott Roeder felt justified in killing the doctor. And umpteen millions (raised on the same pre-scientific ignorance regarding how life works) agree with him. For them, Roeder's act was not "insane". Rather, for them, it was "living up to" his faith, his religious beliefs.
Time to get real. Time to be honest.
The false supposition (really a bronze-age stupidity) maintained by religious institutions: a ghostly person exists in the body machine.
This is the 21st century. It's time we discarded this bronze-age ignorance, ignorance for which Dr. Tiller paid his life.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
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Attorney: What are your feelings on the practice of abortion?
Scott Roeder-
“From conception forward, it is murder. It is not man’s job to take life. Only in cases of self-defense or defense of others.”
If anyone bothered to think in terms of (a) traditional theological doctrine and (b) ensoulment of the person at conception, he could see Scott Roeder's argument.
"The man is obviously very mentally ill."
Insofar as Scott Roeder's "insane" or "very mentally ill" it is because he failed to see the Bible Story as a 2,000 year-old hand-me-down narrative (instead of reality).
Scott Roeder, though you blew it in adapting to the modern understanding of things (e.g., how the world works and how life works), you do get high marks for at least trying to "live up to" traditional Christian teaching and not being a hypocrite.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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TGT said You have an incredibly ignorant and intolerant view of your fellow citizens
Sorry I missed this the first time through because the black text doesn't show up that well in front of the black pot.
Anyway, the case of Dr. Tiller is a sad one and it's just as sad to see the insane amount of propaganda being spread about him. There were numerous testimonials by women in the days after his death whom he had talked OUT of getting first trimester abortions. From what I understand the late term abortions he did were for medically nonviable children that would have never survived birth or perhaps only for hours afterwards. This has been twisted by Bill O'reiley and the like into him doing elective, medically unnecessary abortions because he was a money hungry baby eater. It's all been very sad. I'm glad that the trial went largely without incident and I certainly hope they do not execute him. That would make this even more stupid.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I can't think of too harsh of a penalty for those who commit heinous crimes in the name of religious zealotry.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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from CNN link @ 1:50 PST
" Anti-abortion activist to be sentenced in doctor's slaying"
he's a farking murderer not an "activist"
give him the "right of transportation" and be done. no more martyrs.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
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Scott Roeder, the man convicted of murdering Wichita abortion provider George Tiller, was sentenced Thursday to the "Hard 50," meaning Roeder will serve 50 years before being eligible for parole.
As Roeder was leaving the courtroom, he yelled at prosecutors that the blood of the unborn is on their hands. Security quickly escorted him out of the courtroom.
Roeder called Dr. Tiller a "hit man" for the state of Kansas and spoke of judgment day coming and God avenging the deaths of aborted babies. Then he started reading from Why shoot an abortionist? by Christian terrorist Paul Hill, who was executed for murdering an abortion provider.
And it went on and on and on. It was as if Roeder were trying to filibuster his way out. Judge Warren Wilbert grew tired of it all.
Wilbert told Roeder that his sentencing hearing was his chance to convince him that he should get a lesser sentence, "not a soapbox for your political views."
Political views, no. Religious views, yes. Get real. Every one needs to get real and call it what it is.
So lame. Reminds me of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell b.s.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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It's obvious he's nuts.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Should we also mitigate the heinous acts of "Muslim Terrorists" by saying they are nuts?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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How are you reading advocacy for mitigating murder in my post?
Please advise.
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jstan
climber
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Not being a lawyer I can only speculate. Thirty years down the road what is to prevent Roeder from pointing to his performance at the sentencing and saying ' I am well now.'
Edit:
Just by the responses here on ST arguing who is a christian and who is not a few months ago has demonstrated the word has no agreed upon meaning. Everyone defines it as best serves their interests.
The word should not even be used.
The word is useless.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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You're not mitigating murder but I think I see the bias of a muslim being a religious fanatic but a christian who does something heinous is crazy but "not really" a christian.
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| Messages 1 - 64 of total 64 in this topic |
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