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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 17, 2009 - 11:57pm PT
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So, anyone ever use these at the end of chains as a classy way to leave a route?
http://www.usrigging.com/pdf/Clearanceitems.pdf
They're way rated enough. And not too pricey.
I'm thinking about getting some with the eyelets. Anyone else have a good idea. Forget lap links and chain ideas. You have to untie. Not classy.
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roy
Social climber
New Zealand -> Santa Barbara
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Nov 18, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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Well, wouldn't you be untying anyway? To thread the rope for the rappel? Unless it's a Mussy Hook (in an area where they are regularly replaced) it isn't going to last if you lower through it.
Cheers, Roy
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2009 - 12:40am PT
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You don't always need to untie I guess is my point, you can clip the anchor and have your partner lower you, or take the midway bite and clip it through and rap (I don't untie until I reach the ground). No threading with 'em.
Clint, those hooks... I've seen em and used em, but the crappy wobblly gate is so low budget it always makes me look twice. Those aren't classy, but functional. You gotta admit, if you saw that locking gate eyelet biner you'd blush. It's sexy.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Nov 18, 2009 - 12:43am PT
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Trees.
Gotta keep those sport climbers on their toes, stick with chains.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Nov 18, 2009 - 12:48am PT
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I love and respect Mussy hooks, but I will say that they have at least one signficant drawback - they are hell to unclip, which is not usually an issue, but every once in a while....
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papa_eos
Trad climber
conejo valley, california
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Nov 18, 2009 - 12:54am PT
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I have the same opinion on mussy hooks with the gate being flimsy, but everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
I use these http://www.marinepartdepot.com/new316ststsp.html or ss rings on another page at the same site.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Nov 18, 2009 - 12:56am PT
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I've put two of these bad boys together (side by side, different chain-link) on the ends of a "V" chain set-up on some of my steeper routes--I wouldn't call them the best, but damn bomber for sure. After I closed my climbing gym, I had a bunch of 'em and sure as hill didn't want to pack them around...
Gotta love the stainless bent-gate keylocker:-)
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2009 - 12:59am PT
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gotta say three things...
1. Dmalloy... are you the pro surfer in the clan Malloy? Prob not since you're east side but...
2. Carabiners are great... until some hoser takes them. That's the beauty of the eyelet biner. You can attach them with a lap link and they're ON there. Bomber gate. Clipable. And not going anywhere.
3. Papa ... Break Load - 1150Kg - That isn't the same as kn. Those ar rated to 300 lbs. I think. I looked at them on another site. A tad on the light side?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Nov 18, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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Slater, nobody has pilfed the 'biners I put up on the 45 degree overhanging route yet--someone's going to steal them for what, a QD set-up?
Heavy as lead and obvious in their intention...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 18, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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There's a couple of the very top image ones on the first pitch of Serenity crack
Peace
Karl
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 01:10am PT
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If you think the flimsy gates on those Mussy Hooks look sketchy don't go climbing in the Dolomites. It is very common practice there to have rappels with just a "U" bent in a steel rod. You place the rope in the bottom of the "U" and hope that your body weight holds it there.
Bruce
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Nov 18, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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Bomber don't come cheap...
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2009 - 01:36am PT
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Locker, those are like $40, so I think my set up has you beat. But I like 'em. I'm basically trying to do a home grown cheaper yet still rad version. I think i can do it for less than half.
She might not be a 10, but she's an 8 and that's gud enuf for me. I'm a 5.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 02:37am PT
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Can someone put some of these beauties at castle rock state park? Our bolts there suck ass...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 18, 2009 - 02:42am PT
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Ram's Horns
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Nov 18, 2009 - 03:03am PT
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2 quick links on each bolt or 1 link and 6 inches of chains per bolt.
Cost: 2 6in 3/8's chains plus 2 quick links... 6 bucks. 4 links 8 bucks.
Well I guess that's my 2 cents worth, err I guess my 6-8 bucks worth. Sh#t the bolt and the hanger are 4 bucks total (each pair 316ss bolts and pagan hangers)
kev
EDIT
But if you want to be supertaco classy just rap some 5/16 webbing (good for one rap)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 18, 2009 - 08:12am PT
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Granted that sport climbs are a diferent beast but for general climbing rap stations I like to keep them a heck of a lot lower impact than big chains with huge hooks. I got a bunch of Raumer ring anchors which are allmost identicle to the Fixe jobs for $4.65ea I also use Metelious rap hangers ocasionaly. Super low impact and will NEVER wear through but hard to clip a bunch of stuff into and may tourqe on the bolts a bit in steeper aplications.
If I am useing chains I go with just 1 quick link and 3 links of 3/8ths logging chain. 3 links of chain, 1 quick link,1 bolt hanger and the rope will pull perfectly from that 3rd link. That set up looks about as clean as it will get for chain anchors but is still not that cheap. Raumer rings are the best in the long run unless you are willing to step up to 1/2 in glue ins.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 18, 2009 - 08:26am PT
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This is my super low impact look that I like to use when replaceing bundles of tat on slung trees.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 18, 2009 - 02:54pm PT
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that's the deal the ramur rings are the cheapest and they are actually the real deal instead of hardware store chinese quick links.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 03:03pm PT
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Tradman, who would want to rap off those? At least be putting rings on your setups. Who wants to be leaving draws all the time. Having lower offs makes a climbing area so much more fun.
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jimbo
climber
North Cascades
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Nov 18, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
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"who would want to rap off those?"
Ummm...those Metolius RAP hangers are meant to rap off of.
And you shouldn't be lowering off of any permanent anchor. Wear out your own gear.
Cheers.
Jimbo
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 18, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
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Jaybro, you got a picture of one? I don't think I do...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 18, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
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Drinker. those are made for rapping. They look like oversized reguler bolt hangers and are about the thickness of rap rings. funny thing is that ocasionaly some noob sport climber leaves draws on them. booty;)
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 19, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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Until the Mussy Hooks become stainless, I'll go with these.
Fixe Stainless sport hangers. For belays with a lot of crap happening, they're is a lot of places to clip off that won't disturb the eventual rap you want to do.
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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yeah but those cost a fortune!
But they are exactly what I'm trying to duplicate.
Kong has some stuff for sale that are similar, but only $4.40.
But you have to then add the bolt, hanger, and chain/lap link.
Still, half as much. You just have to show a little hustle.
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Alex Baker
climber
Portland
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Nov 19, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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I think the best option is to just put carabiners on the end of chains. Lower through em, abuse em, whatever. When they look worn someone can just throw a new one on. Simple, cheap, why do anything else?
Alex
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 19, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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For unmitigated BEEF it is hard to beat the Space Station.
I designed and fabricated several of these for the stated purpose of refitting Space Babble and setting up a descent line down from the Kor-Beck on Middle Rock. Featuring welded 1/2" stainless steel chain with an added half link for plenty of wear life, these are intended for remote belay/rappel anchors.
Despite some extensive dialog on the ST and contacting Clint specifically asking him to leave the retrofit for Kevin Worral and I to set up, he just couldn't help himself and so everybody gets the same old tired Fixe ring box set-up and scrawny 5/16" diameter bolts instead of one 3/8" and one 1/2" diameter which considering the amount of rockfall on Middle would have been much better. WTF Clint?!? I would have sent them for you to install if you had even bothered to communicate your overeager intentions.
My BEEF aside, this sort of welded 1/2" set-up without my custom Dolt Ear hangers should be the direction that long wearing remote anchors should be taking, IMO.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Nov 20, 2009 - 12:23am PT
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At least there are new bolts and hardware on a seldom done valley route. Not exactly "Space Station Quality" without the extra Half-link and all....
Nice design by the way, are they for sale?
Mucci
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 12:49am PT
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That might be the first criticism I've read about Clint on this site. And for doing some public service no less.
WAY RAD, grossman.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 12:53am PT
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I have been making these for my own use but not for sale as the whole set-up would be pretty pricey. The chain portion is pretty easy to jig up and weld out of 1/2" stainless chain using the half links from cutting the shorter pieces that would otherwise be waste. You end up with a wear cross section that should last a very long time which beats the hell out of skinny chain if you are going to the trouble to do remote anchor work. The added return of low rust is worth the investment.
The other expense is the pin shackle or quick link which can be a bit expensive in 1/2" stainless which is why cutting the end link to allow the bolt hanger to slip on and then welding the gap closed is best as long as the hanger chosen has plenty of room for an addiional carabiner.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 12:56am PT
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Steve, those look nice, but they won't line up with the original holes unless you get really lucky, and they look like they will collect debris. It's not worth drilling new holes just to use that setup.
It's kind of funny to call the sweet Fixe double-ring hangers a "tired" design - they are better than yours for clip in points, much more versatile as far as not having to drill new holes, and work fine with 3/8" or 1/2". Here's what they look like (this is the anchor on Friends in High Places, Tuolumne):
Calling 3/8" 5-pieces "scrawny" because they have a 5/16" core is pretty lame too - shear strength of over 7,000 lbs isn't scrawny. Rockfall can destroy anything, and considering how many tiny little 1/4" survived on MC for decades, it's not that much of a worry. And my elbow complains enough with 3/8", I for one am not drilling 1/2" in Valley granite with a hand drill!
ASCA rebolters take a lot of flack for no good reason - and just because you made up some Rohrer-style homemade beefy gear doesn't mean that you have a right to give rebolters a hard time. If you'd gone and replaced the stations before Clint got there, then he chopped your anchor and put a different one in, THEN you could give him flack!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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I have to agree with Greg. I don't see any huge advantage to Steve G's design and there as some disadvantages as well. Also, Clint has done a huge amount of rebolting work in the Valley and other places and other than hardware, does it all at his own expense and takes the time and effort to do it historically correctly. I don't understand Steve's attack on Clint. Clint certainly doesn't deserve that kind of treatment.
Bruce
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:23am PT
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Pretty funny Steve had a name picked out for the rappel units.
I guess "Space Stations" are destined for a name change.
There is a nice TR about the rebolt here somewhere.....
Good on those guys for swooping in and hammering out Phase 3 of the "Space Project"
The force was with them it was...
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:30am PT
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Fuk that.... let's get the PinBolt rolling again!
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 02:25am PT
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Greg:
All I can say is, you and ASCA totally ROCK! I've told you this before and I meant it. I'm at least as impressed as I can be with anything. And of course everything you said is spot on accurate. I think those Fixe double ring anchors are the best design currently on the market. Stainless steel, mega strong, from an established company that can be trusted, fully redundant, commercially available, ease of placement, no issue with lining up holes, do not twist ropes, extra clip-in points, can replace lower ring with a quick-link or carabiner if worn...they are awesome!
Oh, I suppose I should point out for full disclosure that I am a corporate sponsor of ASCA...under Tom K. Michael, D.D.S., P.S.
Because, like I said, ASCA rocks!
I also think it was mega-cool of Clint to actually go up there and fix up Space Babble. I was amazed anybody has the time or motivation to actually do that! Sorry it took so long to say so, Clint...congratulations! Your TR on the thing was great.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Nov 20, 2009 - 02:38am PT
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a knob the size of a basketball with a good lip
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Nov 20, 2009 - 10:50am PT
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I would have a problem with the longevity of Steve G's "Space Station"--not in the bomberness of them, but not being (re)plated after the welding process invites quick rust and corrosion.
Maybe Steve (or Greg B) have some insight here, but I've never seen a non-plated weld last very long in the outdoor environs, when used for climbing anchors...
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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Props to Clint and Greg. I've had internet interaction with them only, but they've always been super helpful and from what I've seen they have contributed a lot to this dysfunkshunal climbing community. Thanks to you both! I've used ASCA stuff to rebolt entire crags, something that could not have happened had not people contributed. So props to all of you who have helped maintain a route, or who have put one up. Now everyone just hug and knock this crap off.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 20, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
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Nice to see innovation. Good stuff. Steve, do you think that the metal piece that is sticking up in the middle of the links you welded together might hinder the pull of a rap rope?
Also, what Mojede says: the bare steel by the weld will start rusting soon....and a replacement of the replacement would come sooner rather than later don't you think? Unless that's just weld discoloration on Stainless steel. Hmmmm. perhaps that is what we are looking at there, and not rust on steel.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
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I like the Space Station, with the extra large diameter rap point.
I don't think it would collect much debris on Space Babble -
it's pretty clean above that route; the Kor-Beck corners funnel stuff away from the face.
They are all stainless, so I don't think there are any plating issues.
Steve, you can always go up there (fairy easy to access via Kor-Beck)
and drop those into the existing bolts; I think they would fit.
There are a couple of rusty 3/8" split shaft bolts at a couple of anchors,
so you could clean those up as well.
Sorry if we sort of jumped your project - if only all routes had competition for rebolting!
I had promised to do it before I heard you were interested.
And I wasn't sure when you were going to get around to it, so I just went for it.
Also, I hadn't realized the Space Station setup was meant specifically for Space Babble (I didn't make the name connection) -
I had assumed it was for general use, and you had other rebolting projects.
By the way, if you want an interesting rebolting project,
the pitches on the Smith-Crawford above where it intersects Mother Earth are still original 1/4".
There are also some original 1/4" on the upper part of Mother Earth above the traverse ledge.
P.S. Kev and I did most of the replacement together. We spent 2 semi-rainy days replacing the upper anchors and fixing ropes to the ground. I went back 3 days later when it was dry to finish the last few bolts.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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I agree with Jimbo.
People who lower on fixed stuff, especially in the desert where ropes turn into rat tail files, should be excoriated.
Damn right! Wear out your own gear!
But you guys at the ASCA can get a little uppity too.
Just because you think your anchors are best is not a good enough reason to marginalize the route's pioneer and ignore his intent (downright foolish if he is a known charitable donor, n'est pas?)
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pazzo
climber
Vancouver BC
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
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scuffy b
climber
Whuttiz that Monstrosicos Inferno?
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Nov 20, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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What's with all the single-ring setups?
Also, if you go with a vertical orientation, it's really easy to get the
holes drilled so that one bolt is getting all the load.
You may not think that's a big deal, but it probably isn't your intention,
either.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 20, 2009 - 06:25pm PT
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Kind reply Clint.
Steve, Why put energy into something that's already complete, venture out and get something new going! I think Karma could use a nice rebolt job. Maybe you can come up with some custom bolts/chains for those traversing pitches?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2009 - 06:28pm PT
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Partial to bare Metolius Rap Hangers myself, though I wish they'd do a 1/2" version of them.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 20, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
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But Ed, even without lowering they get wear grooves which should be made in replaceable links.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
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Everything shown or discussed here (other than the various rings) will wear in the same spot every time, severely shortening the life of the anchor. The beauty of the single or double ring anchors is that the rings rotate and never really wear in the same spot repetitively, severely lengthening their lives.
The need to untie is the only downside to rings, but it's one shared with the Metolius and various quicklink options shown or discussed above.
I made the switch to rings a few years back and have seen them far outlast previous anchor options at popular areas. No looking back for me...
And, I also applaud Greg and the ASCA's efforts.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:44pm PT
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If the ASCA would rather see ring boxes than what I advocated and put together specifically for this project, I am a bit amazed. The breakdown between discussion and action is the source of my frustration here. As I stated earlier, I would have been more than happy to supply this stuff so that it would be a very long time before the need for any more anchor work would come up again.
Bigger steel can hardly be considered a bad thing especially when the number of protection points is small and the runouts and rockfall are, at least in my mind, a big consideration in choosing what to install. I can certainly find some great spots to install them elsewhere.
A fixed pin or protection bolt failure would be pretty bad news on this thriller as you really need almost all of them.
I raised a lot of issues surrounding Space Babble but I guess it was just soliloqouy...
A Pinbolt stamped Buy Fishprods will be available for inspection on Double Cross before XX-mas....
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 12:38am PT
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day late and a buck short, thanks for playing.
I think it's worth noting this isn't a grossman FA.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:35am PT
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Clint:
I think your last post is pretty much the nicest one that I have ever read on any forum...and with the most class!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Nov 21, 2009 - 11:01am PT
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A Pinbolt stamped Buy Fishprods will be available for inspection on Double Cross before XX-mas....
that's what I'm talkin' about!!!1116664
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
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An interesting discussion. Aren't we all glad that belays using a pair of 1.5 " or 2" x 1/4" Rawl split shaft bolts are no more? Particularly those joined by the American Death Triangle (with a rap ring, if lucky), or placed in poor rock? We're a lot better off than we were.
That said, modern belay bolts very often are placed too closely together. They don't allow for fractured, crumbly or otherwise unreliable rock. (Some of the photos upthread looked of potential concern.) GIGO. It doesn't make much sense - they're mostly placed with a power drill, so it's no harder to place them a safe distance apart. The only downside is that where chains and/or rings are required, a greater length is needed.
BELAY BOLTS MUST BE PLACED A SAFE DISTANCE APART, ALLOWING FOR THE NATURE OF THE ROCK AND THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE AREA THAT THEY'RE PLACED IN!
I like Petzl belay/rappel setups, and am confident in their engineering. Well-designed stuff. The difficulty with custom made products, however carefully designed, is that they don't - as it were - come with a seal of approval, and don't look "standard". The average climber may not know what to make of them. And many of the gimcrack hardware store screwlink + galvanized chain + quick link + cold shuts/carabiner etc setups are not confidence inspiring to anyone knowing much about the stuff.
There's one climber in this area who makes a fetish of placing marginal belay anchors. He makes many new routes, although not all are of any great quality. His 'belays' are bolts placed very close together, often with only one having a real hanger, then joined with hardware store chain and split links. It's usually impossible to use the things as a belay. (This in areas with many climbers - not wilderness.) Others have replaced some of these belays, but in a few instances, he re-replaced the good, new anchors with his version. Money is not an issue - he's quite well to do. A controversial and somewhat territorial figure, for all his somewhat misguided energy.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
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Greg- Perhaps you ASCA guys should sit down with some climbing saavy engineers and work this through just as I had to while drafting the artificial climbing wall engineering specification as board chairman of CWIG.
I said this elsewhere and will repeat it to make my point again. A 3/8" Grade 5 bolt or cap screw BARELY pencils out as strong enough (with all appropriate life safety factors) to be installed on a climbing wall as a protection point to hold repeated falls. Each protection point is engineered as a stand alone anchor designed to hold repeated hard falls.
The 3/8" Powers 5- piece stainless that seem to be the mainstay of your activities will not meet the muster for a climbing wall installation.
A 3/8" wedge anchor in stainless barely makes it and likely fails because stainless steel usually deforms more easily than Grade 5 conventional steel.
You can believe that average ultimate failure figures are what you need to site but don't indulge yourself that way in a courtroom. Despite the cost, you guys really need to be thinking and acting in terms of placing 1/2" diameter solid stainless steel bolts.
Humjob- You have nice brown lips that match your nice brown nose. Wipe off your chin, tidy up and come back for some more while it is still warm. You are cute, real cute...
Anders- Sorry to hear that you have a bolt weasel sneaking around your area.
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LccMonkey
Trad climber
utah
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
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Replaced this two years ago with the same style, Now I hear It is worn out by now.
The best thing about the big fixe rings, is that they dont wear on the same spot.
God Bless the asca.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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The old 1/4"ers lasted 30-40 years and didn't have but a rare failure incident here or there. They were short as well, often only 1-1/4" deep.
Kind of makes you wonder doesn't it? Yet you think that the 3/8" 5 piece are too weak......
Oh, today's safer bolts: 1/2 x 7" stainless wedge anchor next to a 3/8 x 2 and change steel 5 piece and a 3/8 x 2 something wedge anchor.
My experience in the wet zone with those steel 5 pieces, which seemed to be the shizz when they came out like 20 years ago, is that they rust solid internally, and are NOT replaceable. Trying to back out the bolt will have it easily snap right where the threads start. It's surprising how little pressure it takes for it to do this. As the rusting is under the rock, and not visible at all, I believe it is a matter of time until these are determined to be time bombs just waiting to fail, and a new bolt replacement initiative is needed to replace that old rusty steel crap. Of course, in desert areas, your results will vary.
Watch it happen....
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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Why thank you Steve, I appreciate the fine complement! We aim to please at MichaelDental...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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Humjob- You know the score between us and your laughable vow to do better. It is a battle of wits with an unarmed man from my perspective. As you like it...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
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The 'standard' up here is now 10 mm stainless steel, although there are many 3/8" bolts placed over the last 20 years that seem to be doing OK, except for some galvanized ones placed in the late 1980s before we learned better.
It's very odd. The magazines and books regularly tell climbers not to lower through rings or chains, to reduce wear. Almost all climbers lower through them, notwithstanding. I've seen many experienced climbers who undoubtedly know better do so, and have been criticized for generally refusing to lower or toprope through fixed chains/rings. Along with gimcrack chain/ring setups, and belay bolts placed too close together or in unsound rock, another mystery.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
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Steve,
> you guys really need to be thinking and acting in terms of placing 1/2" diameter solid stainless steel bolts.
Where power drilling is legal, this is what most people already use for replacement. The thinking was done a long time ago.
Greg/ASCA and others already use 1/2" for sandstone in Red Rocks, Indian Creek, etc.
If you want to come down to Yosemite and drill 1/2" by hand, or recruit volunteers to do it, please go right ahead.
But I think the pace of replacement would be extremely low with 1/2" by hand in Yosemite.
I've drilled 1/2" by hand at Pinnacles and Indian Creek - it's slow enough even on those types of rock!
I don't think the calculations for repeated falls on a steep indoor climbing wall match up very well to slab falls in Yosemite, or to rarely done routes or climbs that otherwise don't see many falls.
P.S. Using insults in an argument is a very ineffective style, in my view. Look up "ad hominem" if you like.
I think you can do better than that.
You have valid points, but then you kind of spoil it sometimes....
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 05:01pm PT
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Hand drilling 1/2" holes in granite is no big deal really, I do it all the time. But then again, I stance drilled 3/8" holes for decades so what do I know?
My point is that those 3/8" bolts aren't as strong as you folks seem to believe that they are.
I am only sharing my knowledge and experience with you and will happily stop doing so if your minds are already made up on the subject. Surely slabs are not the only hard stone routes that the ASCA retrofits? Right?
Clint- You can be a bit snotty and presumptuous yourself.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
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OK, how long does it take you to drill a 1/2" in good granite? (I know it's a bit of a vague target, as the quartz content varies). I am thinking of some granite mix harder than the quartz monzonite at JTree.
I noticed your 3/8" on "G-Man" at Pat + Jack Pinnacle - I was impressed.
What's your height/weight? Remember, some of us are pencil necks (I'm 6', 135 lbs). So our tendon attachment areas are not so big and we may not be able to drill all day without injury.
Sharing the info is good. What is the mean and variance of the bolt strength for the standard you have researched for the indoor wall example?
You are right, it is not entirely slabs in Yosemite (although slabs seem to be where most of the 1/4" protection bolts are). I suppose a good example to check would be the Killer Pillar - steep, fairly hard and accessible; maybe those bolts get some repeated falls. They may have been placed in the power drill days and may already be 1/2". If not, then maybe a good place to check to see how they are holding up.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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I have been swinging a 32 oz framing hammer most of my adult life and am very aware of my drilling skills. Taking the extra time and effort to drill bigger holes seems worth it to me.
To be absolutely clear, these retro-fitting projects that you guys take on are a huge amount of work and I salute and support your efforts. Why not maximize the quality and service life of that investment? That is my ongoing point. Has the ASCA even tried to gain an exception to the power drill ban above 500 feet?
The climbing wall engineering specification is in the hands of the Climbing Wall Assiciation (CWA) which I walked away from long ago for a variety of reasons. Believe me, the engineering rigor that leads to a formal specification is pretty stringent and I don't have the details or access to them any more. I carry away the results of our discussions as I was the one writing the draft while it was being formulated under the umbrella of an ASTM standard.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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I don't know if ASCA has tried to get an exception to the power drill ban - hopefully Greg or Chris can answer this. Others have suggested this. Maybe we could use some help? If someone has investigated this, hopefully they will explain what opposition they ran into.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
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I don't think that the Wilderness Act would preclude any such exception even though it has been interpreted and used for all kinds of screwball things like an out right ban on any fixed anchors including a sling around a block or horn!
As long as you have an agreement to not enforce the ban from the rangers (with Jesse as your representative) that should be all that is required.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
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I've suggested this many times in the past that ASCA receive exempt status for bolting repairs using power drills thru supervision from the Climbing rangers.
An official sign could be hung displayed at the base of said route with description of repairs and official authorization. Camp 4 bulletin board would also have notification of said authorization and location of said route.
It would be Yosemite CalTrans (heh heh)
I don't even believe the ASCA have brought up this idea officially to the powers that be yet with a good coherent argument for their case?
Roger Brown said even if he's authorized for use of power drill for repair in Yosemite he would not use one because he loves to swing the hammer.
Anyways just my thoughts .....
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
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Yeah, a little unofficial tolerance on enforcement would do it. I'll see what Jesse thinks.
I've been a little discouraged in the past. For example at Hetch Hetchy we had to sign in at the entrance booth and say what we were doing in there. About the only thing they asked when we said we were climbing was "You are not using power drills, are you?" (We weren't; there are these things called cracks....)
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 05:49pm PT
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Anders,
> belay bolts placed too close together
What standard do you prefer for this? I recall seeing in the info from the manufacturer that the minimum bolt spacing should be 2 times the depth.
(I suppose this is for the hardest concrete they considered).
My climbing buddy Bob knows the code letters stamped on the outer tip of the wedge bolts, so he can tell the depth of such bolts in place.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
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You'll have to go above Jesse I would think.
Maybe even have to go as far Washington, DC ????
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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What standard do you prefer for this? A quite conservative one, given that the bolts are likely to be in place and relied on for decades, without being checked. I believe that manufacturer's minimum recommendations (insofar as they are any - Petzl is reasonably good) assume uniform solid rock, without visible or hidden fractures. A lot of rock is fractured or soft or both, and also subject to natural and human weathering.
In this photo from upthread, it appears that the bolts were placed in a single block, with visible fractures on at least three sides. Maybe not, of course - but the bolts are also a bit too close together.
In the other photo posted, of two bolts and belay gear in what appears to be conglomerate, the bolts appear to be much too close together, given the nature of such rock.
In both cases, catastrophic failure seems possible. These setups seem more common in 'sport' climbing areas.
Pictures can be deceiving, and who knows what's under the surface, and what considerations the drillers had in mind? Maybe these are giant long bolts, placed after all the junk rock was crowbarred away - itself a not so subtle hint from nature. But why not be just a bit conservative - several times I've seen intact belay bolts setups lying in the scree below cliffs, attached to rocks which are no longer attached to anything.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 07:39pm PT
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Werner- I don't think the formal committment to banning power drills is even an issue past local precedent and enforcement. Who is really going to file a complaint about unequal treatment under the circumstances?
Has the NPS ever exercised authority to use a power drill in any rescue situation above 500 feet, in your extensive experience?
The climbing rangers simply have agree not to enforce during a sanctioned retro-fit. Simple as that, I would think as long as it is performed under the aegis of the ASCA or some other recognized organization and that formal permission is applied for and granted. The NPS is the government after all, so there is always a way or mechanism to act in the public interest.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
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Perhaps the Ken and the YCA, the Access Fund, or Jesse might advise about anchor replacement possibilities in Yosemite. YOSAR might also have useful thoughts.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 21, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
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In the other photo posted, of two bolts and belay gear in what appears to be conglomerate, the bolts appear to be much too close together, given the nature of such rock.
Anders, as someone who works in basalt I would say you are being paranoid for climbing purposes. The only criticism I'd have of the anchor above is that it may be too close to the fracture line above it - I'd have no problem whatsoever with the distance between the bolts. I don't know the loading or material specifics behind the construction bolting standards (which I've read), but I do know you could sink two bolts three inches apart in a chunk of our solid basalt and they'd be completely bomb for the life of the bolts. We don't do that, but you could. In that sh#t you folks have down in the Valley? Short of being on or near an edge or a significant fracture that stuff is so ridiculously bomb compared to our basalt it seems a pretty silly proposition.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2009 - 08:40pm PT
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The only downside to placing belay bolts a bit farther apart appears to be that, if they're used for rappelling/lowering, a bit more hardware (chain) will probably be needed. The upside is likely greater security.
Many belay bolts are placed very close together, closer than any of those shown. There are lots of risks inherent in climbing, but bad or poorly placed bolts are no longer generally acceptable. Why place belay bolts that are too close together, or in suspect/fractured rock, when you can just as easily place them properly?
A job worth doing is worth doing well. It's a bit like those discussions about belay anchors and equalization and so on. Losing sight of the main issue, which is that the goal is to have belay anchors that are as strong as possible in the environment and circumstances, and to be tied to them. A fancy equalized belay made up of poorly placed gear is still crap; a poor belay made up of well-placed gear is probably OK. Likewise, for bolted climbs particularly, what's the point of bolted - that is, supposedly bomproof - belays that are marginally placed? Poor rock, too close together, fractures, etc?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 21, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
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Fractured or suspect rock is one thing, but the notion and characterization of bolting even three inches apart in good rock is somehow 'bad' or 'risky' for climbing purposes is what I'm having a hard time with.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2009 - 09:11pm PT
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Physics and geology. Rock has weaknesses, some not visible or observable, and changes over time. Even apparently solid rock. Anyone who's climbed for a while, especially aid climbing or doing new routes, has probably had times where rock unexpectedly broke. Geologists, too. With inverse square law, bolts placed twice as far apart are, all other things being equal, 1/4 as likely to be in the same unnoticed weak area. With observation and a bit of tapping with a hammer, and then drilling, perhaps even less so. So placing bolts say 10 cm apart instead of the minimum - something like 5 cm - reduces the odds of having both in an unobserved weak area, for trivial effort. (10 cm is still probably too little.)
I mentioned "vanishing belays" upthread; it might be interesting to build some belays in real rock, using various techniques, and pull them to destruction and see where the failure is, and how strong they are. I suspect the rock would fail more often than we'd like.
Repeated stress on anchors, and so on any weakness in the rock, can add to this, while placing belay bolts near visible fractures seems foolhardy.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 21, 2009 - 09:19pm PT
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Sorry, but if we're talking good rock, then I don't buy any of it.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
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I wonder what recommendations the climbing equipment/bolt manufacturers, e.g. Petzl and Fixe, make regarding this, and what evidence they base it on? I looked at their websites, but couldn't find anything that was very obvious - maybe itself a message. Has the UIAA done any testing? Rock quality outdoors may be hard to measure and can be inconsistent - pretty much what we're discussing - but perhaps there's some objective information available.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 21, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
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Locker,
Thanks for pointing that out.
I found:
http://www.nps.gov/jotr/planyourvisit/climbing.htm
"Fixed Anchors in Wilderness Areas Fixed anchors may be replaced, anchor for anchor, in wilderness. A permit is required to place new fixed anchors in wilderness. Contact the special-use office at 760-367-5545 to request a permit application.
Over 75 percent of the park is Congressionally-designated wilderness. Climbers are responsible for knowing where wilderness boundaries are located. A list of climbs and whether they are inside or outside of designated wilderness is available online. If you are unsure about a particular location, contact a park ranger.
Fixed Anchor-Free Zones Fixed anchors may not be placed or replaced in fixed anchor-free zones. Additionally, the Barker Dam area, a popular destination for many park visitors, has been designated a fixed anchor-free zone to maintain its aesthetic value for visitors. Fixed anchors may not be placed between the parking lot and the dam. If you wish to place fixed anchors in the surrounding area, make sure to identify the boundaries first.
Power drills Power drills may not be used without a permit. You may contact the special-use office at 760-367-5545 to learn more about the permitting process."
So it sounds like it depends on each Park's Wilderness Management Plan.
In Yosemite, a permit is not currently required so place fixed anchors in the wilderness.
I suppose there might be some risk of losing this freedom if the Plan was revised?
Or maybe we could add powerbolting for replacement by permit without affecting manual bolting?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
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"critical" spacing between 2 bolts is 2 imbedment depths for full strength
or
"minimum" spacing of 1 imbedment depth for 50% strength That may be the nub of the issue. I read 'critical' to read "absolute least" - and that's probably assuming good rock quality, reasonably dense and uniform, without nearby weakness. In other words, best case, with the bolts correctly placed. And a lot of bolts aren't in best case scenarios, or quite properly placed. And I read "minimum" to mean "if it's physically impossible to place them farther apart" - the half a loaf thing.
It would be interesting to know the science behind their recommendations. It may be based on pulling bolts out of some sort of cast material, which may not quite be real world.
With 'standard' bolts being 2.25 or 2.5 inches, the conclusion I draw from Clint's information is that belay bolts should at the very least be five inches apart, and five inches from any visible weakness - and probably considerably more. For longer/fatter bolts, farther. There don't seem to be any negatives from this, and there are also non-safety positives, such as spreading out climbers at hanging belays a bit.
This is not criticism of Steve, Clint, Joseph or anyone else here - I'm sure you all take care to place sound belays, having regard to needs and the environment. But many belay anchors, especially at sport climbing areas, don't meet the critical and sometimes not even the minimum (strength compromised) spacing. The rock in such areas (Skaha, Cheakamus Canyon, Vantage, Smith, etc) also tends to be less sound than granitic rock, although the latter has its own issues.
I certainly use such belays, and they're much better than none, but the relatively few bolt belays I've placed are comfortably spaced. It appears that a bit more knowledge and education about this subject might be useful.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:11am PT
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You gotta be kidding us Anders.
Are you really trying to insult us.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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Far from it. I'm genuinely interested in the subject of the appropriate, safe placing of belay bolts. It appears that many may be placed too closely, having regard to recommended spacing and the characteristics of the rock they're in, and that that reduces their strength and perhaps safety. I would like to learn more about this, beyond the purely empirical and anecdotal, and maybe there is something we can all learn about the subject. Perhaps there is even some objective information about it - testing and such.
There may be other things that are more pertinent to climber safety, allowing for there being no such thing as safe climbing. But belay bolt spacing and placement is something I've often wondered about.
What are YOSAR practices in these matters? Different needs, of course, but what size and type of bolts does it use, and what spacing?
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 12:30am PT
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I don't mean to take the head in the sand approach, but none of the anchors I've set, or ever used (to my knowledge) have ever blow. Of course now we're gonna see the pictures of blocks of rock sitting at the base with bolts in them... or accident reports of bolted anchors blowing...
(actually, curiosity has gotten the better of me... let's see 'em- never to old to learn).
Putting two bolts closer than 5" just seems pretty idiotic, so does bolting near an edge. And nobody (using the term "nobody" loosely because there is always an exception to the rule but they're such morons nothing is gonna change that) puts in anything less than 3/8" anymore. And two bolts is redundant, which is more than the single bolts that typically save our sorry a$$e$ on a regular basis.
All that said, all this is good for discussion and keeps us sharp and is overall good reinforcement. Put 'em in right, use the best materials available.
But I kinda think that if a piece of rock with two bolts in it blows, it's just your number is up. Like surfing and getting hit by a shark. It's just out of your hands (barring the idiots who surf in sketchy places like Ano Nuevo (me- can't help it, it's just too good sometimes) etc... sometimes you're just asking for it...).
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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A website with some information about this: http://www.climbargolis.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm
I'm not sure who Bolt Products is, apart from being German, but there is an enormous amount of interesting information about bolting and safety at the link.
Edge Effect.
If a bolt is placed too near the edge of the piece of rock or near a crack/fault the loading of the bolt will cause the rock to break out in this direction at a relatively low load. There has been much research into this and the general recommendation is not to place a bolt within 200mm of the edge, some go as far as 400mm. Unfortunatly when using the staple type of bolt the action of drilling a second hole creates this edge and the cones of failure overlap, seriously reducing the load bearing capability. The fastener company Hilti recommend a hole spacing of twice the hole depth for adjacent fasteners to avoid this problem. ITW Ramset give a hole spacing of 1.5 x depth as the critical spacing and a distance of 1.25 x depth from an edge. The UIAA recommend a spacing of at least 200mm when fitting two bolts at a belay. I couldn't find the direct reference on the UIAA website. However, their minimum recommended spacing is 20 cm. Hilti goes with "separated by twice the depth", but also "20 cm from an edge/crack". Perhaps the UIAA and the climbing-specific industry are more conservative.
I wonder what else might be out there? Perhaps not in English? There may be more research into this in German.
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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Nov 22, 2009 - 12:59am PT
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I swear -- when I first saw this discussion topic, I thought it was about who was the best anchor person on a news show about rap music.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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Anders
If you want to learn more start climbing.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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Here what I use for most of my rap anchors (similar to Kev's set-up): 316 SS 5/16" quick link to a 316 SS 3/8" chain link. Pricey items, the 316 SS... even at concrete industry wholesale this set-up (2 quick links, 2 chain links) costs me over $15. But they will never rust away in non-chloride inland areas like Yosemite.
For less than $5 you can get the above anchor in carbon steel. And even the hardware grade stuff is plenty bomber- it does rust, but there is so much steel cross-section that it would be a long time before the diminished strength due to corrosion would be an issue. And when it does, it is easily replaced by another inexpensive link.
Granted the above system is not so convenient as the hooks or other clip-in anchors, but are great for more obsure locations that don't see a lot of traffic (so you don't need to worry about rope wear-through).
As to the question of spacing the anchors, I can relate to feeling wigged out when seeing two anchors placed really close together- it FEELS like it is just one anchor and non-redundant. However, in reality, it is not an issue in most rock. In the concrete industry we always design our steel-to-concrete connections based on the shear cone of the Nelson stud or expansion anchor. This "shear cone" is the conical piece of concrete surrounding the anchor that breaks free from the base wall or block. The pullout strength of an individual anchor is the concrete shear force (a function of the compressive strength Fc of the concrete) per square inch times the surface area of that cone. The deeper the anchor, the taller the cone- and thus more surface area of shear resistance. We regularly design huge plate steel connections that consist of 6 or 8 studs spaced per manufactures specs (see Powers example that Clint posted earlier). Keep in mind that the pullout values for the anchors are cited for concrete with the shear cone as the controlling factor. In reality, most rock is way stronger than concrete, thus manufacturer provided pullout values are lower than what you would experience in good rock. In fact, I'm guessing the controlling factor in good granite (Fc= 12,000+ psi compared to standard concrete Fc of 3,000-5,000 psi) is the cross-section tension strength of the steel.
If the rock is fractured, then you reduce the cross-sectional area of the shear cone by the area of the fracture in the vicinity of the anchor. You can also treat the rock fracture as an "edge" and reduce the anchor strength per manufacture "edge distance" factors.
All of the above is for tension (pullout) of an anchor in concrete or rock. Most falls on bolts will have a combination of tension and shear loading on the bolt itself. The given shear strength on the bolt itself controls for shear force that the anchor experiences and is the same for a two-bolt anchor regardless of the bolt spacing.
Long story short, if you see two bolts real close together, don't fret, physics is on your side. Unless the rock is fractured in several places, you be fine. It just looks scary.
Of course it would be nice if folks refrained from putting anchors at the "minimum" spacing since the end user has enough things to fret about...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:27am PT
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If you want to learn more start climbing. Yes, sir! Sergeant Werner, sir! Good idea, but I already did, long ago. And I still do some climbing, though not as much as I'd like. I've even clipped some bolts, and placed a bunch. Maybe we can go climbing together during the FaceLift next year, or in the spring if I'm down that way. That would be fun! Or you could come to Squamish - you'd love it. In summer.
And yes, I'll install the SuperTopo filter on my computer, and try not to work quite so hard.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 03:14am PT
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Cargsnhag and Clint,
I think it is important to mention that for most rock climbing applications, the 'shear strength' is more important than 'pullout strength'. The Powers
Specs that you both talk about appear to be most concerned with 'pullout strength.'
I would be interested to know if there are any recommendations for hole spacing with respect to 'shear strength.'
Bruce
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 03:58am PT
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Thanks, Bob. I like the stress cone diagrams. It makes it fairly easy to visualize why the 2 times imbedment depth keeps the cones from overlapping, so they retain independence/full strength.
And I like the compression strength rating for good granite.
It wonder how much it varies for the "grainy" granite.
I have drilled 3/8" by hand in concrete, and it didn't go all that quickly, so that makes me wonder.
Bruce,
I left off part of the description for the bolt spacing from the Powers PDF. The loading was for "tension and shear" for the 2x depth and 1x depth specs. (So I put those words in just now in an edit).
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 22, 2009 - 05:21am PT
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Speak of the devil and he will appear (I am the owner of Bolt Products and English to boot)!
Interesting thread and still suprisingly polite so here are a few observations from a lot of research and testing.
The monster setup from Steve Grossman:-
Technically it is undesirable to re-weld the old chain welds BUT using that size chain you don´t really need to weld at all anyway so carry on! This is only of concern at the loads we work at when you get down to 6mm/ 1/4" chain.
Leaving the weld discolouration is also undesirable as this promotes corrosion, better is to pickle the welds afterwards and preferably passivete as well. However as above, in this size of chain I wouldn´t be worrying about it either. Keep up the good work.
Placing two seperate rings/rap hangers/karabiners/whatever:-
If the two points are long enough that they can swing and touch together under load then this is o.k. but if the cannot touch then there are two problems. Firstly they twist the rope which for rapping isn´t such a problem but when lowering on sport routes is a pain, secondly the wear on the points is considerably faster as they vibrate quite a bit as the rope weak passes over. At a rough estimate the wear is about 30% higher.
We normally recommend (and usual practice in Europe) is to set the ring etc about 45° down from the other.
Bolt depth and spacing:-
In Europe the wedge (or through) bolt are the universal bolt and these comments ONLY cover this type of bolt. There has been virtually no testing here on the 5 piece type.
There has been some controversy about the recommended depth, with the UIAA trying to push through 7cm/7 X diameter but this has failed as the manufacturers of the bolts temselves are adamant that 5 X the diameter is adequate. This is the requirement of the European Technical Approval to which they are tested by the manufacturer, the bolts are then bought in by climbing equipment manufacturers and tested to EN959 for resale. 5 X dia (that is 50mm embedded depth for the standard 10mm bolt used here) has proved time and again to be adequate. To allow for the nut, hanger, a bit of pull out when tightening etc the usual choice is an 8cm bolt, the next shorter commercially available bolt is 6cm which is cutting things a bit fine though on the hard granite these are sometimes used to save drilling.
The spacing recommendations are generally extremely conservative as they are based on concrete tests which work out a bit different from solid rock.
However to conform to the bolt manufacturers own certification we (and everybody else) just say 200mm to save a lot of confusion. Personally I generally place at a minimum of 230mm because that is how far it is from the tip of my thumb to little finger. As mentioned, further apart reduces the chance of hitting a fault in the rock.
The cones of fracture stuff is interesting and there is an endless amount of research done on this for the construction industry but in all our testing (and we´ve done plenty) this rarely is what we see. The bolts are designed for maximum performance in medium to strong concrete which is in climbing terms a pretty weak bit of rock. In real rock there are two possibilities, in harder rock the bolt breaks before the rock and in weak rock the bolts pull through and cannot impose enough force to cause rock failure. The only time we have seen the classic cone failure (with mechanical bolts) is in conglomerate when we have have the luck to hit a buried pebble which rips out through the sandy rubbish holding it all together.
Because of the type of concrete used for the standard test the bolts themselves hold better and cone failure is usual but in an equivelant strength sandstone for example the bolt does not grip well enough to cause cone failure.
Bolt size:-
Good quality 10mm 316 stainless wedge bolts hold about 38kN, that is 50% over the requirements of EN959 and a load impossible to achieve with normal climbing equipment, a 3/8 bolt would have absolutely no difficulty in achieving the standard.
Bolt failure mode:-
In both straight-out (axial) pull and shear (radial) the mode of failure is bending shear and there is effectively no difference in the failure load, for EN959 both axial and radial are tested as the required values are different but for practical purposes most people are only interested in the worse case which would be axial. Repeat loading is of little concern until it looks so bad you wouldn´t use it anyway! Hangers are a bit more susceptible to cyclic loading but we are still talking of hundreds of full-on hits.
Drilling:-
All rock are different to drill, one of the biggest differences is the elasticity, the more elastic it is the more the hammer blows are absorbed and hace no drilling effect. Concrete is made of a fairly elastic matrix with extremely hard conglomerate whereas some granites have very low elasticity and very weak inclusions (feldspar for example).
What you need is a drill that varies the hammer frequency to suit the natural elastic harmonic of the rock but I doubt Bosch are working on this one!
In our experience the hardest rock to drill is high quality marble which also destroys drill bits for fun.
Hope some of this helps and now I´m going climbing!
Jim Titt
Bolt Products
Germany
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
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Kinda hard to argue with any of that.
But I still wanna see some pics of slabs of rock that blew off with bolts in them. Someone make my day. And tell me the story too if you can. I've had enough engineering mumbo jumbo.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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Thanks Jim! great to see actual and real information instead of guesswork. I've perused your site quite a bit especially looking for info on glue ins. We chose to use Wedge Anchors anyway due to ease of placements, but I just wanted to say that your site is a wealth of information, and it's greatly appreciated.
http://bolt-products.com/
One thing which may be of significance is that no one has mentioned the use of a torque wrench for proper installation. It may be an indication that even a 3/8" wedge anchor is so much overkill that even torqued incorrectly there is way too much margin to critically affect the installation. It is even less significant in the 1/2" diameter sizes. BUT, a torque wrench should be utilized to optimize the strength of your placement. Too much or too little is a bad thing. If you put an extension on it, you won't rap your knuckles and can spin it around for an even faster install.
I'm the only climber I've seen running around with one though and bolts aren't falling out of the rock.....
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:35pm PT
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Man
The guru of anchors and bolting. Awesome web site Jim.
Thanks.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
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Wow, Jim...fascinating stuff! There is some great bolt and bolting info on the ASCA website; this would be a great addition!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
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Jim- Have you run into any twist shearing issues connected with the threading procedure on stainless steel wedge anchors that are 3/8" or smaller in diameter? What installation torque value are you recommending for tightening wedge anchors.
Those heavy anchors of mine were shown without the muriatic acid pickling and blackening step that would tend to reduce the oxidation/ corrosion at the TIG welds and reduce the glare.
You must be involved in some artificial climbing wall work. What is the CEN using for service load values on protection points these days?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
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Back to the computer - try to answer things in order:
 Steve, you are right that 3/8" bolts are not that strong by construction standards, and 1/2" would be minimum size for those standards. But they would just laugh at the concept of 1/4" bolts...and climbers have used how many 1/4" bolts, and for how long? I think you can agree that 3/8" stainless is a lot better than 30 year old 1/4". When we can power drill, 1/2" is the preferred size.
hand drilling 1/2" in granite is a very big deal, at least on good granite. I've hand drilled a lot of 1/2" x 3" holes at Red Rocks, and it can take from 6 minutes (soft white rock) to 20+ minutes. I've hand drilled 3/8 x 2.25" holes in softer Tuolumne granite in 6 minutes, but the same hole on the best Tuolumne granite takes 14 minutes plus, and that same hole on the best Valley granite can take 20+ minutes. Asking rebolters to repeatedly drill 1/2" on good Valley granite is a quick way to reduce the number of rebolters from the current levels (3 or 4 fairly active) to zero (actually Roger would probably do it!). And you can always remove the 3/8" bolts and drill 1/2".
getting an exception to the power drill ban in Wilderness would require that the NPS or other managers officially "manage" bolts (and thus they could get an exception since power drill replacement is less disturbing to wildlife than hand drilling - which is true). This is highly unlikely until some sort of national bolting policies are settled on, and it's probably at least a decade before that happens. Even if the NPS approved it, the Sierra Club and others would most likely sue to block it - not because they care about climbing, but because it would be seen as a foot in the door for snowmobilers and others who want to have motorized access (which is of course a totally different issue). Pushing national managers for an official exemption could even bring about more regulation of bolting - we would have to discuss this in detail with the AF policy folks before going that route.
Werner, if you know who we can talk to in Yosemite, please email me (I've asked you and others before, never got an answer). We could probably get an exception for the Lower Merced areas with just local approval, since those are non-Wilderness. Not that there are many bolts to replace there (except Parkline slab).
Locker, power drills can be used only in the NON wilderness areas of JT, and only with a permit. You can't use them in the Wilderness even with a permit. I'm the one who applied for and got the first power drill rebolting permit in JT - it's definitely only for non-Wilderness.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Hey Greg, thanks for the additional info! I'm super curious; what would those hand drilling times be for half inch bolts? I have no idea.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 02:16pm PT
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I've actually considered finding out, especially on East Cottage Dome in Tuolumne. There are a several key bolts that are 5/16" buttonheads with spinning hangers. This is mostly due to rock breaking out behind the hangers. Anyway, if you pull a 5/16" (insert multiple swearwords for even thinking about that...), you can't hand drill a 3/8" in the hole since the bit gets stuck (too close in size). But you can hand drill a 12mm or a 1/2" bolt, and the bit doesn't get stuck.
I did replace a handful of bolts with 12mm Petzl Long-lifes for similar reasons. Namely, replacing Diamond taper bolts in 3/8" holes with 12mm. This is because the taper bolts leave a lead sleeve at the bottom of the hole, and if you try to hand drill through them, the bit gets stuck. But if you drill out the hole to 12mm, the rock stops the bit, and you break off chunks of the lead along with the rock, and it works out fine. Petzl Long-lifes because they are WAY shorter than any other larger bolt option.
The drilling times on those are meaningless though, it's a bunch of light tapping, and most of the rock was gone already.
My guess for a 1/2" x 2.75" bolt in good granite - this is assuming that you are a fast driller with arms in shape for drilling - is maybe 30-35 minutes a hole. Just a guess, and it really depends on the rock quality.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 02:16pm PT
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hand drilling times be for half inch bolts
Horrendous, bring your lunch.
Greg I don't know who to talk to other then Jesse would know the powers to be above.
From your last post it sounds like a bureaucratic nightmare.
The only real legal exempt status is Rescue.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
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Jim,
Thanks for sharing your insights on cone failure of concrete vs. natural rock. Especially for sandstone, where the (wedge) bolt fails by pulling out rather than causing a cone failure. I wonder, though, how the 5-piece sleeve bolt (Power-bolt) with its higher pullout strength compares with the wedge bolt in sandstone. In sandstone, I presume they both fail in pullout without a cone failure (unless it was wet or something).
I am feeling better about my use of 3/8" stainless wedge bolts on new routes. (Of course, most are so obscure, they are unlikely to see repeated falls). But I also like the concept that the bolt will start to look bad before failing, in cases where it has taken a very large number of falls.
Greg,
Thanks for sharing your experiences and thoughts on 1/2" and power drilling. I agree that power drilling disrupts wildlife less than hand drilling, because it the noise is so brief. (This is for a fixed number of holes, so it assumes the context of replacement; when in developing new routes, power drilling is likely to increase the number of holes and routes being drilled). And thanks for clarifying about power drills not being permitted in Wilderness of Joshua Tree.
P.S. Roger has a new way to drill out the 5/16" holes for 3/8". After you extract the 5/16" buttonhead, you turn it 90 degrees and pound it back in! Then you extract it, turn it 45 degrees, repeat. After this process, it is apparently a lot easier to enlarge the hole to 3/8".
And for extracting the 5/16" in the first place (I think you know this trick, but others may not), you use a special tuning fork or knifeblade pitons to get it out until resistance is very high, then you pound it back in and repeat. I guess this loosens the crumbled grains around the bolt from the extraction process.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 22, 2009 - 03:02pm PT
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Thanks for the compliments, back from my first bouldering trip to the indoor wall this year so trashed! No place for old men!!!!
Torquing throughbolts is a bit of a funny topic but since you guys are into the techy side here goes.
In Europe (where they where developed) these are technically called `torque controlled anchors´and get a seperate ETA (European Technical Approval) number from the more usual multi-piece (this is called Option 7).
For critical fastenings the old system was that anchors had to be on-site tested after installation which was slow and expensive, especially if they failed and had to be replaced. The solution was an anchor where the installation tested the pull-out resistance at the same time and this anchor is the wedge or through bolt. The specified tightening torque is a test against pull-out and nothing more, in most applications they are in fact torqued-up to check they hold and then released to install the object as most profile sections won´t take this sort of pressure.
The torque is chosen to give a load of 4 times the installed working load (the typical construction industry safety factor).
For a typical 10mm bolt the tightening torque recommended is 24Nm to 30Nm which represents a pull-out force of just over 20kN.
For a 12mm then around 50Nm which is a pull out of ca 40+kN.
(all these figures vary a bit depending on the manufacturer).
So to put it simply, if the bolt takes the required torque then it will hold what it says on the packet, if it won´t take the torque then it isn´t holding.
You can obtain the screw pressure for any bolt/thread from something like Machinery Handbook or any thread spec table if you need to work out the torque for say a 16mm bolt in sandstone where you can´t apply the full torque (100Nm) but still want the 20kN pull out, (15Nm was what we used in the end).
Under torquing- doesn´t do any harm but hasn´t properly controlled the bolt
Over torquing- the danger is weakening the bolt and for a 10mm bolt the over-torque is ca 35Nm.
And does it all really matter? We installed 30 80mm X 10mm bolts in identical conditions and rock, 10 were torque and released, 10 were torqued and left pre-loaded and 10 were just hammered in but never tightened, then they were axial (straight out)pulled
The first two cases were effectively identical, the never-torqued versions were marginally stronger by an average of 5%.
Beer time!!
Jim
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
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Hey Clint, yeah I'm the one who suggested the 5/16" pulling trick (pull it out a bit, pound back in, repeat). It's still a big pain regardless! Neat trick on the enlarging to 3/8" hole, but of course it depends on the rock quality (if the 5/16" is too compressed, wouldn't work).
Yes, the power drill exception would have to be based on the replacement of a fixed number of old bolts, and I bet any permit that might happen in the future would be on a route-by-route basis. But this is all up in the air for now, not much chance of it happening anytime soon.
As far as drilling times for 1/2", I have to admit that the very first bolts I ever placed were two 1/2 x 3.75" 5-piece bolts, in granite, with a hand drill. Took about an hour and a half each. I learned really quickly why you don't hand drill that size in granite! (it was a top anchor on a ground-up route, and I didn't have any other bolts, and I wasn't going to rap off a single bolt). And that wasn't Yosemite-quality granite either...
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 03:24pm PT
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One more question for the bolt experts out there (and thanks again for all the great info!):
Is there any way to remove Fixe wedge bolts (or similar)? A number of years ago I foolishly purchased a Bosch and a bunch of Fixe hardware. I say foolishly, because I can count on both hands the number of bolts I've placed in the last 30 years. I think I figured, hey, I'm way into climbing, I need this stuff! Unfortunately, I just don't have the time or motivation to equip new routes; I have replaced a very small handful of anchors, will likely do the same in the future. (my neighbors love me, they have borrowed the Bosch for home projects). So I have done some crude testing on the Fixe wedge bolts. Man, those babies sure seem bomber! I tried to remove one; beat the crap out of it with a hammer, tried to break it with a breaker bar, cut half way through it with a hacksaw and beat the crap out of it some more. With more cutting and hammering you can eventually cut/break them off. I'm way impressed with their strength, but unless I'm missing something there is no way to cleanly remove one. Which makes me think, that even though they are bomber, I should not use them. It just seems so clearly desirable to be able to remove and replace them way in the future, possibly with a larger bolt. Anyway, is there any trick to removing them?
Thanks again!
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Nov 22, 2009 - 03:43pm PT
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Bruce- I agree that most bolts out there (on vertical to slabby rock) will exprience a shear force perpendicular to the axis of the bolt- certainly all the bolts I clip anyway. For folks clipping bolts on overhanging rock, then pullout strength/ shear cone is the what governs.
I believe the vast majority of ground-up bolts in Yosemite fall into the first case, thus really we should be worried about bolt shear. Since the bolt shear is primarily just a factor of bolt diameter, the bolt spacing is irrelevent.
In reality, a hand drilled bolt will also experience a little bending stress since there is almost always a small amount of cratering at the lip of the hole. Of course, this is a such a small effect, that it can be neglected. Now if that hand drilled bolt (in vertical rock) takes a huge loading (much greater than what we climbers can generate), then there may be some localised crushing of the rock at the lip of the hole that encourages more bending. When the bending stress exceeds the elastic yield stress of the bolt, the bolt will deflect slightly in the direction of the load. Then some the shear loading becomes pullout loading due to the new direction of pull. But not a big deal because a good bolt can handle this newly introduced load without issue. As long as the bending of the the bolt takes place in the eleastic region of stress, the bolt will spring back to it's original shape. With an even higher load, the bolt will behave inelastically have permanent some deformation in the direction of the load. Thus subsequent falls on this bolt will always involve some amount of pullout loading, albeit small.
A couple years back Banquo and I tested 1/4" x 1" concrete screws in a good granite block using a load cell. The bolt was oriented in the block to simulate a dead vertical placement. We found that at about 1800 lbs of force perpendicularly to the bolt hangar, some local spalling occured at the lip of the bolt. This absorbed some energy and with initial elastic bending the load reading on the cell went down. We then continued to apply more force until we reached aroud 2000 lbs where there was permanent deflection in the bolt, and with the combination of the slight loading offset caused by the bolt hangar itself, created enough pullout force to yank the screw out of the rock. This is more or less what we expected since we wanted to test the screw's ability to bite into the granite. (Note: the screws were designed for concrete which is "soft" compared to granite and allows for more purchase of the threads). So the failure was a pullout failure at a load that would likely be a lot less than in concrete (you could actually calculate it based on hangar geometry, spall depth, etc, if so motivated). So in theory you could use these little screws on slabs but forget about it for vertical to overhanging terrain. I placed only one in real rock (a slab) and I plan to replace it with a 3/8" bolt.
Hey Banquo, I know you have photos and graphs and stuff about our experiment. I'm sure you can work in Mohr's Circle in there somewhere for the amusement of us Tacoeans.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 22, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
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That's why we stopped using stud bolts of any sort - Fixe, Powers, Hilti, etc. They are not removable in the future. Breaking them off at the surface (by simply over-torquing them to death) is about what you can hope for, unless the original hole was too big.
Of course, the future is a long ways off for stainless stud bolts, especially those placed in the desert southwest. And if marine grade (316ss) are used, in combo with 316 hangers (like Petzls), then the corrosion resistance is pretty darn good.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Nov 22, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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IDK.. the kind that stay put?
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Nov 22, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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Hey Clint,
Yeah, I've hand drilled concrete too. It can be easy or tough depending on the mix design of the concrete, Most concrete is just cement (essenitaly powdered instant limestone), sand, and aggregate. Depending on the type and concentration of the aggregate, it can be tough to drill. You stand a good chance when drilling concrete to drill right into a chunk of aggregate (granite in many cases, depending on location of batch plants, quarries, etc). Then it's like drilling into granite except harder because the cement/ sand matrix absorbs some of the energy of the hammer blows (as someone earlier pointed out). That's why hammerdrills drill through concrete like butter- they rely on much smaller percussion and high repetition- so that the stiffness of the matrix is not an issue.
I've got a quarter incher with one of Dan D's SS hangers (Leeper lookalike) on my concrete porch securing a wire that holds up the Bouganvilla. It was drilled from a great stance...
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Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 07:06pm PT
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Cragnshag asked me to post this information and photos from 12-15-2007. We tested 5 (1/4"?) self tapping type concrete bolts installed in a new, split, rough granite block. The average ultimate strength of these was 2134 lbs with a standard deviation of 249 lbs. Using n=4 and 95% exclusion student's T distribution, I came up with 1444 lbs as a reasonable ultimate strength. For allowable I would use about 50% of that or ~700 lbs.
Needless to say, time, quality of rock, weathering of rock and bolt, quality of drilled holes, cyclic loading, etc. were not considered. Note that drill diameter would be critical. We tested shear strength only and have no pull out or combined load data.
We need some more details from cragnshag.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 22, 2009 - 07:46pm PT
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Here's the nearest thing to a stress cone type failure I've seen "in the wild":
At Cave Creek in Arkansas. Sandstone. The bolt placement was a 2.25" Rawl (Power) bolt with a Metolious hanger (sure about the bolt, less so about the hanger). A feller had clipped it, fell, and pulled the rock and bolt out in one swell foop. Was some 'net chatter about it a few years ago. Crazy to see in person.
I've seen similar when I've tightened a bolt in granite and cracked the rock through placement. Pulled the bolt and patched the hole. A couple years later, climbing the route, I kicked that hold and had the whole bolt placement area spall off (narrowly missing partner and gear/rope).
I personally really like those ring type anchors that Fixe, Faders and Raumer sell. Compact and they seem to wear well. Spendy in stainless, but, less to worry about long term and they are replaceable.
Great info!
-Brian in SLC
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Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 07:59pm PT
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I work in and teach structural engineering. I believe that the single key factor that allows for the success of steel reinforced concrete is that the coefficient of thermal expansion of concrete is very close to that of carbon steel. If the coefficients of thermal expansion were very different, a composite of the two materials would cause the structure to tear itself apart during temperature cycles. It works because the two materials are compatible.
The Europeans seem to use more epoxy anchors than we do here in California. Does anybody know if much testing of epoxy anchors exposed to freeze thaw cycling has been done?. Anchors in the hot sun can be well over 100/°F and subzero temperatures certainly occur in alpine situations. In fact, these extremes might be seen in a day and many cycles might occur in the life of the anchor.
Coefficient of thermal expansion, microstrains/°C
Granite 8.5
Carbon steel 10.8
Portland cement concrete 8 - 12
Stainless steel 17.3
Epoxy resin 25 30
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 08:10pm PT
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Banquo- Nice testing set-up!
What is your perspective on twist shear problems arising in stainless steel wedge anchor production during the thread cutting step for bolt diameters 3/8" or less?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 22, 2009 - 08:22pm PT
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I wouldn't doubt for a second that the 2:1 distance:length formula and 'cone' perspectives in construction is due to the fact that concrete is a very active material which comes in a myriad of compositions. Further I would say the ratio of good-to-bad pours is also a consideration as plenty of mediocre and lousy pours happen even in the U.S. from time to time. Concrete isn't stone. I also don't doubt weak or chossy sandstone or basalt will 'cone'; but in good, solid rock - granite, basalt, and even sandstone (SE) - I don't believe it's a particularly valid construct for climbing and I've never seen evidence of it in all my anchor replacement work.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Nov 22, 2009 - 11:05pm PT
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Here is a photo of the concrete screw that we tested. It's the 2nd from the right. Pretty strong for their size, but difficult to twist into the hole if you are drilling overhead so I'm not using these. I'm drilling almost exclusively 3/8" and I keep a couple of 1/4" x 1" buttonheads handy for lousy stances.
Also shown are a carbon steel sleeve bolt, 316 SS wedge bolts 3/8" and 1/4"
a Powers 410 SS "Wedge-Bolt" 1/4" x 1 3/4" that is actually a concrete screw (not sure what idiot at Powers came up with the name since it does not look or perform like a wedge bolt), and a 1/4" X 1" recycled buttonhead, a standard 3/8" modern SS hanger, and Dan D's SS 1/4" homemade hanger.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 22, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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Thanks to everyone for all the information and discussion. Interesting stuff.
Edit: I liked that Jim T, after all the analysis, ended up saying his rule of thumb was to separate two belay bolts by at least one hand's width - for him, 23 cm. Very Olde English measurement!
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 23, 2009 - 04:12am PT
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Steve. We don´t have much to do with anchors less than 10mm because they can´t be sold in Europe. We tried with 8mm but they let go just under the standard at ca. 24kN
There are some wedge bolts coming out of a large Asiatic country which I won´t name which have poorly formed or even machined threads which tend to sieze up when they are being tightened, they are also made of some alternative 316 but just pass the norm tests. Still nasty though so we only buy European made stuff. Best by far are rolled threads and it is hard to believe anybody makes them any other way simply from an economic point of view.
For climbing walls the standard is EN 12572 and the test is 8kN for 10s on the first three bolts and the lower-off. The attatchment point (steel behind or whatever) should be specified to hold 10kN.
The first bolt may not be more than 3.1m from the ground and the spacing thereafter not more than 2.5m. What is considered an acceptable lower-off/top-rope point varies from country to country, one snapgate (for lowering) and a screwgate being pretty normal or a single ramshorn. In Germany and Austria it is usually required by the approval/testing body that the lower-off is two points joined by chain and that the top two or three draws are fixed and the rope used through these when lowering or top-roping.
Hummerchine- We drill out old bolts using water-cooled diamond core drills and then fit a glue-in, for a typical sport climbing venue this is easy if a bit slow but doing this on big routes would be a nightmare! Depending on the drill you have you get 5 to 8 bolts out per battery and need about 1 litre of water so a lot of hauling to be done. Doesn´t work by hand as the core drills are rotary not hammer (well, maybe with a brace and bit-I´ll maybe have a go at this this week but its going to be tough).
Banquo- The German alpine club did pull tests on these babies (known as Thunderbolts in most places). They suprised everyone by holding well and certainly got the required numbers but these were the 10mm version. However the difficulty of placing them halfway up a route hanging on a rope means they are totally impractical, 10mm and larger you really have to use a rotary hammer and the fixing tool. There is also some testing done by a guy in Australia which I might be able to find, he also decided the installation was too difficult to make them usable.
Re thermal expansion, fortunately the types of adhesive used are quite elastic and allow the bolt to change size without cracking or letting go, for really big bolts used in civil engineering there are special systems and dimensioning to cope with this but for us it is not noted to be a problem. Incidentally, while nearly everyone talks of using epoxy to fix bolts I doubt that 10% of the bolts actually use this but instead polyester, vinylester, modified vinylesters and the similar methyacrylates, in fact I´m probably the only idiot in the world that has fitted 2500 bolts with real epoxy!
Long term testing in the Alps show no difficulties with glue-in bolts and in fact the recommendation from the German Alpine Club is that bolt-ins are only to be considered satisfactory for 10 years and in areas of freeze-thaw only glue-ins should be used.
For real long term durability then quick setting cement is the way to go but you need bolts made for this and it is a bit fiddly to do on the cliff, this is the way the via ferattas and big belay bolts are installed all over the Alps.
Jim
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Nov 23, 2009 - 09:19am PT
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So.....when are you going to start distributing in the U.S.?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 23, 2009 - 10:54pm PT
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Thanks for the information, Jim. I have been away from the wall standards for a while.
I could help you correct your bolting mistakes, Humjob...LOL
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Nov 24, 2009 - 12:34am PT
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All look a lot better than some I've seen...
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 01:29am PT
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Hey Steve, I apologize if in some way I was unclear...no worries, I have not made any bolting mistakes! The 5-10 bolts I have placed have all been bomber, using Fixe SS wedge bolts and hangers. I just had a theoretical concern that far in the future, after we are long gone, they might not be able to be removed and replaced. I'm happy to hear that it is indeed possible to remove them! I'll take a rain check for now, perhaps you can come back from the grave with your water-cooled diamond core drill and help, when the time comes. It's very nice of you to offer...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:54am PT
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If these are what you are talking about in terms of water-cooled, diamond core bits then it looks like such rigs can be had and adapted to SDS drills for about $150 AU bucks. Must be some similar available state-side. The one pictured below is a 12mm. Guessing it all makes a hell of a mess.
http://www.hoskindiamond.com.au/category102_1.htm
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 03:30am PT
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Since this thread is full of useful information has anyone done any testing on the different thread types, especially for wedge anchors? As I understand it, rolled threads are the best because they don't introduce any potential stress risers that are more common with cut threads.
Bueler? Any one?
Bruce
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 24, 2009 - 08:40am PT
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Healyje- those are the sort of thing, but we use shorter ones imported from California (actually made in Ukraine). You need the diamond/bronze sintered ones (which your example looks like) not the cheapo electroplated ones to get any sort of life. We use a different water spray to save water, not pressure feed up the middle.
Not really that messy, just boring!
bhilden- rolled threads are around 25% stronger than machined ones. They dont have machining marks to produce stress risers which cause fatigue problems, the material is hardened (stainless cold work-hardens) and even better they are far more resistant to SCC as the bottom of the root is rounded and reduces the stress concentration under tension.
Hard to believe any major manufacturer is actually machining threads though when you see the speed a Landis or similar machine works at!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 24, 2009 - 09:56am PT
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I'll kick this in as well on the rolled vs cut/machined thread discussion. Although it is a minor point, as I understand it both are 18-8 stainless (18 percent chromium/8 percent nickle which can be slight variations of that theme) in the 304/A2 config: but the cut thread product stuff has a slight bit more sulfur in it to increase the machinability, and thus is slightly less weather/corrosion resistant in the long term.
A small point but one more nail in the coffin if you have a choice. As far as strength goes, as long as they are ICC rated product (think UIAA rated except for the building industry) they will be plenty strong enough. Each Mfg has published specs and strengths for each product which must be and are met for their individual product, or design engineers would be going crazy every time their buildings collapsed. Think of it. If you buy a product form a Mfg and they publish a spec which says 4000 lbs shear in such and such concrete, weather they roll or cut the threads means noting to that figure or to you. The fact is that machined threads are better as Jim says above, but the product you are getting should meet that published spec as a Minimum no matter if they have elves with hammers and chisels making the product in the back of a 1962 Chevy Impala.
More important than cut or rolled is to make SURE that your bolts are ICC rated. Buying product Mfg by a major mfg (and not a hardware store bin filled with Chinese generics) with published specs and ICC ratings is the way to get that. If you buy a Red Head or Powers product, for example, you are getting a lot of behind the scenes engineering work to back up what you actually think you should be getting, and if they say the strength figure is 4000 lbs shear/tensile blah blah, it will be, and you don't have to worry if it's rolled or cut, it WILL hit that strength figure.
JimT - where can one get the drill you posted there? Some of the 3/8 steels around here are rusting to crap, and although still real sick strong, they are in need of replacement.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 24, 2009 - 10:07am PT
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I placed this anchor. few things to note. Ice climb that gets done maby 10 times a year. low impact was a big consideration. The metelious rap hangers are one of the lowest visual impact bolted rap station available INMOP.
If you place these hangers too far apart they tourque inward when loaded and turn into spinners. They width of my hand is 8.5" so these are about 7" apart. Just about perfect for this type of hanger. The rock is pretty decent and those lines that you see are not real cracks. Nothing that you could get a #1 Kb or even a rurp into. In short I would and have bet my life on this anchor.
I can see how it would look from the photo that the right most bolt is near a crack. That is a line that formd when the rock was melted a billion or so years ago? its all smooth an flowing looking like its bonded realy well. the bolts are at least 7" from the top of the block. the reason they are not placed farther down and left is so that the ropes will pull.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 24, 2009 - 10:11am PT
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I would too Tradman. I've never seen these "too close of anchor" Mighty hiker brings up ever fail yet anywhere or ever heard of it till he mentioned it. Anywhere: even when the bolts are 1/4 x 1-1/4 long. I would think that a 7" bolt 7" apart or any config even violating the commonly seen mfg spec of 10 x diameter apart ( so roughly 4" minimum for a 3/8" bolt) and being way too close together would be significantly stronger than any config of 1/4 x 1-1/4 no matter what your spacing on the 1/4" bolts.
I didn't know that having them too far apart increases the oscillation and wear on the sport hangers like Jim posted above. I wonder if that's what happened to the worn through Fixe sport hanger posted above that had to be replaced in 2 years. Sandstone sucks for that kind of wear, especially on carabiners or alumunum rap rings, but with the rings you can rotate and spread the wear -although you still see big grooves in them.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 24, 2009 - 10:25am PT
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The metelious rap hangers are quite suseptable to getting tourqued inward, grinding away at the surface stone and eventualy becoming spinners. The closer they are together the less likly this happens. The upside is there is so much metal there thAT THEY Will NOT wear through like the rings. I do prefer the Fixe/Ramur rings because they are easier to clip more stuff into and don't seem to tourque the bolts as much. I guess I should spray paint them stone color. Not shure why I didn't just paint them all the day I bought them?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 24, 2009 - 10:58am PT
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you keep discussing the roumar rings, I've never even seen one so where the heck are you buying them? (hint: link)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:17am PT
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The Roumer Rings look just like the fixe rings. A single SS ring on an hanger that orients the ring Verticly. 27kn rateing. I got a bunch @ a local gear shop for $4.65 ea Super closeout deal.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 24, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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Couchmaster-good point about ICC, naturally over here we have the ETA´s but I didn´t know what you have in the states.
I too had a load of 10mm Chinese knock-offs I bought once, they just get the 25kN test but that is a long way off a good quality one at 38kn, dumped them out to a guy who makes garden frames, pergolas and such like.
The drills are these http://www.ukam.com/webcatalog_drills_ordering.htm in Valencia.Cal. We make our own spray set-up with a garden sprayer and some Gardena irrigation bits, there are some pictures on my website www.bolt-products.com
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 24, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
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they just get the 25kN test but that is a long way off a good quality one at 38kn,
Well I can absolutly 1,000% gaurentee you that your rope will break a whole lot sooner than 25kn so what is your point??
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 24, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
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The point, I think, is that is statistically a sh#t load off of what they should have been rated or what a quality Mfg would consistently produce. That Jim has his stuff together and apparently tested some to learn of this deviation and spare you from learning it the hard way when you fell onto it in no way means that YOU will be so lucky just fishing them out of some random unmarked bin and getting yours to go to 25kn. Maybe YOU grab the ones that only go to 13Kn or 5kn or they go up to 40kn...who knows or can say? Some Chinese stuff is awesome, some is trash - certainly good enough for a garden bin, but it's the "who knows" part you should be concerned with when you stick all of your brothers with a bill which might come due for one of them.
Jim - thanks for the link! Do you use that ultra thin core bit which is selling for almost a hundred dollars?
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 06:34pm PT
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So Jim, how exactly do you do the water spray? I'm guessing you just drip it on from a water bottle, but I'd love to hear exactly how you do it. Thanks!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 24, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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Thanks, tradman, couchmaster. I just 'borrowed' the belay-bolt photo in an attempt to illustrate the concern. That is, solely going by appearances (and not having the context), the bolts in the photo looked as though they might have been placed too close together, too close to a crack, or both. It's the sort of setup that's often seen. I don't mean to suggest that particular belay was in any way suspect.
I've seen bolts lying in the scree below a cliff. That is, the bolt or bolts (and chains, etc) in a detached block. Once at Vantage - a complete belay. (Not the Positive Vibrations pillar one.) Individual bolts in blocks on several occasions, including Vantage and Skaha. And once a bolt in a block that wiggled but was still attached. And not all weaknesses are visible, or found with tapping or drilling.
It seems to me that if you're going to make the effort to place bolts, a little thought about location may pay dividends, and requires no additional effort. Healthy spacing of belay bolts, having regard to rock type, quality and observable features, makes sense.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 24, 2009 - 11:44pm PT
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tradmanclimbs,
> this is a link to the actual page with the anchors. i have been useing # 148 but i like the look of #147 with the oval ring.
The oval ring could be nicer for low angle rock. The round ring is better for distributing wear of lowering on a sport route. The double (round) ring hanger seems to solve both problems.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 25, 2009 - 12:51am PT
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Clint, when i first looked at that oval ring i thought that you could clip more stuff into it. then after i had posted i realized that it would probobly not load as nicely especialy witha bunch of stuff clipped in one ring. The doubble rings are nice but usually pricy. like i said i got my paws on a bunch of the single round rings at a good price and super happy with them. not putting up spurt routs though. Trad cragging on some and multi pitch trad on others.
used 2 sets on this nice 3 pitch job i put up a few weeks ago. This is P2 of Isabella 5.10a
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 25, 2009 - 01:58pm PT
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Tradmanclimbs- well you´re an ice climber from from Vermont so I guess you know better!
The law in Europe says all rock anchors sold for use by climbers MUST withstand 25kN.
We like to be sure so we do quality control testing. We don´t earn any more money from it, we could just buy rubbish in and mark it with some spurious rating like the Chinese do but we do sleep better nights doing it our way:~)
Jim
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 25, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Couchmaster/Hummerchine- yep those are the guys, if you think they are expensive you should try getting them over to here, shipping with UPS Express, import duty and sales tax! (We smuggle them over as it happens but it doesn´t make it any less painful).
The water spray is a garden pressure sprayer with a garden irrigation nozzle and regulator tap, have a look on my website under bolt removal.
Jim
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Nov 25, 2009 - 07:19pm PT
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Ah, missed that section on your website that shows how it's done! That is just so freaking cool; I really thought that there was no way at all to remove wedge bolts. Not that I'll ever do it, but fascinating none the less. Thanks again, and your website is amazing. Cool niche you have found yourself, btw...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 26, 2009 - 10:14pm PT
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JimT I am certainly not selling anything I do know however that If I rig a rap station with 3/8th" logging chain and hardware store 3/8th quick link that it will be stronger than the rope. I know these things because I have done a whole lot of logging with old climbing rope. The rope breaks allways at the knott. The old retired booty biners and quick links never break.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 28, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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Ok I had too much time on my hands so i did a little test for you guys. Those of you not familar with my testing procdure BAT satnds for Big Assed Tree.
Old rusty 3/8th" quick link cleaned from crap bundle of tat anchor that I replaced with bolts and rings a few years ago.
Rusty quick link has Made in Tiawan stamped on it. Only tightend loosly with finger pressure. I understand they are stronger when fully tightened with a wrench.
Old retired 10.2mm beal rope.
Tie rope to BAT with bowline. rope tied to quick link with figuer 8 and yos finish. quick link clipped to bumper of 86 F150
Loose coil of extra rope on ground so truck may hit terminal velocity before rope comes tight. Good for shock loading.
Mosh truck. Rope breaks at the bowline again. Rope allways breaks at the bowline no matter what the test is.
Conclusion. hardware store quicklinks even when rusty are stronger than climbing rope therefore safe to use as permanent anchors. YMMV
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 29, 2009 - 08:46am PT
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Bump
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 29, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
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Shouldn´t that be "twang". :-)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 29, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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It's actually a pretty loud snap when it breaks and you do expect to get something flying through the back window of the cab. Never fails to get me to flynch pretty good.
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pcousar
Sport climber
White Salmon, WA
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Nov 29, 2009 - 10:16pm PT
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Feb 19, 2010 - 11:14am PT
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Why do you "replace" them with a ring anchor. Once you saw off the biner end, you have what amounts to a quicklink anchor. Why not just saw off the worn lower biner part and either leave it with the ring that is already there or just put on another quicklink if you feel it's warranted?
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2010 - 11:23am PT
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I love the truck stunt!
Aawwwesome. I was kinda hoping the bumper would come off though.
Vermont.... sweet.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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Feb 19, 2010 - 11:51am PT
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Screwlinks and chain wear in the same spot every time. The rings rotate and wear in different spots every time, equating to a MUCH longer lifespan.
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