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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 9, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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This is a privately held letter that Warren drafted to the American Alpine Club in 1972. It clearly depicts the ridicule he held for the AAC, the climbing establishment and in pointed remarks, Royal Robbins specifically. After all, his letter here was written quite some time after Royal and Lauria’s erasure of the Wall of the Early Morning Light and we can sense his ill-concealed rage while he nonetheless condemns himself to “farcing” and “drinking”. Although he climbed afterwards, Warren was forced to both confront himself and the community he sprang from and this process did not take place as well as it might have. As with my related post of Warren’s letter written to the AAC (a draft apparently), these two letter arriveds in my hands from Joe McKeown (Guido) who got the image from Roger Derryberry and Mary Lou who actually own them.
Here is the text and following it is the actual retouched raster image of the mounted document.
Truckee, Calif
Stronghold of the
L.S.E.D.&F.S.
Dear Alpine club
Sorry to have been so neglectful of this matter: my membership status.
This must be the year for scandals lf all levels--- from Watergate to the Low Sierra Eating Dring & Farcing Society (LSED&FS). A recent security lock revealed that (the founding Director of the LSED&FS) had in a moment of moral weakness succumbed to pressure and joined the American Alpine Club--- this was a little over a year ago.
The membership of the LSED&FS were stunned--- outraged--- rightfully so!** A High Council meeting was called --- I was called to answer for my incredible conduct. Cleverly following the example of the Watergate people, I freely admitted my sins, and for good measure threw in a plea of insanity.
This satisfied the Council: I was give a chance to continue as Founding Director, provided I severed all connections with the hated American Alpine Club. I, of course, readily agreed to these Terms. This makes sense: as a true “Downward Bounder”, I have never (during my 1 years membership) felt comfortable in the company of the High Minded, Ethical gentlemen (who climb “without fanfare”, etc) who make up the AAC.
Then, there’s the matter of all the wonder--- political in-fighting that seems to go on. Good enough comedy, I suppose--- but I wouldn’t pay anything to see it. The other AAC projects and functions are, no doubt, worthwhile--- to some one, but not for me. I find I just don’t really give a damn about any of this--- it’s entirely possible that I'm simply not “community minded”.
Semper Farcissimus
“BAT”
**It was a shock comparable to learning that Jerry Rubin had joined the John Birch Society or Eldridge Cleaver had joined the KKK.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Wish I could have met Harding. Not as a young gal tho, would have needed to meet him on my today time turf. Plumbing the depths of insanity can reveal and teach much if you can absorb the material. Like reading Tolstoy, one must pay attention.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
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Warren wasn't insane at all. He was very very funny and sly and yes also dark. I hardly knew him, Lynnie. And I am not really a huge fan of Warren either. But he was a working man and I deeply relate!
But it is the history that is so important here and to share it with thousands instead of two dozen old guys and a few gals from the era as we quickly vanish. I am hoping for the Stevie Grossman Award of the Eternal Flame with this post!!!!!!!
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Truckee was the "Stronghold" of the Low Sierra Eating Drinking and Farcing Society? I had no idea.
Did Harding spend much time here in Truckee? No wonder I love it here.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I never thought Harding was insane. He drank too much, that's for sure, but when sober, I thought he had much better insight into himself than most climbers of the time. So many were so serious, yet Batso never lost his sense of humor concerning himself or the scene in general. He wasn't a Berkeley intellectual and didn't pretend to be; he was always just himself warts and all. Certainly no one would have laughed harder than Warren at the idea that instead of chopping bolts, civic minded people are now replacing the old classic bolts on places like the Apron for the benefit of all.
This does not mean I agreed with all his bolting, but it was in character for a man who sought success no matter what it took. Meanwhile, a quick perusal of ST will affirm that the climbing world is still full of Valley Christians of many denominations and motives!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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My relationship with Warren was tempestuous.
When we first met in C4 in 12/76 I was just another young wall wannabe, but by the time he moved to Utah we had a sort of bipolar relationship interacting with Kyle's moodiness.
At times simpatico, at others the target of his ire. Often it was merely a function of the level of blood alcohol level.
Eventually I became the repository of some of his memorabilia (the spare BAT tent from the Dawn, his hammers, his home made figure 8) , but we had insufficient resolution before his demise. I last saw him in Telluride.
Perhaps the tragedy was his lack of appreciation of how much of my own climbing career was a homage to HIM.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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I'm sure Harding wasn't certifiable....I just meant crazy like my husband Dan was....doing things that few thought possible or probable. A person that pushed boundaries. :D
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Peter, it is possible to put in the letter in text here for us to read?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2009 - 11:38pm PT
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THANKS NORTON!! I thought I had, here it is now. I know the "image" is not readable so I transcribed it.
No matter what, Warren Harding was one of the five or six elephants that carried us forward either by example or counter-example. When I think back to those times I realize that although it was more or less concealed, the man felt he was spurned and misunderstood even though he feigned to not give a damn. He wasn't all that much of a hard-ass that he would not have cared how he and his legacy rested with his friends and associates. No one is. Since we all live in community. But his passing was his own undertaking.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 10, 2009 - 12:08am PT
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Even those who spurned his climbing methods, enjoyed the parties with him. Perhaps part of the reason he partied so much was that he felt accepted while they were on. Not a few climbers mentioned at various times that they liked him so much, their main regret at his climbing methods was that they felt obliged to oppose him for that, creating dissonance in what would otherwise have been a great relationship.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Nov 10, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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Peter, really appreciate what you are trying to accomplish. Getting the history out to "thousands" instead of a few oldies.
Right On, Mon !!!! :D
I like my van .... yo can help me make it psychedelic. It already has the throw down. Smiles, lynnie
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 10, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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You are hereby commended to be licked by the Eternal Flames...of controversy. Warren in the AAC at all is a longer reach than his stature would ever allow. LOL
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 10, 2009 - 12:15am PT
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I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.
 Groucho Marx (of course)
Edit: The quote is widely attributed to Marx, but the true origin seems murkier. A collection of sayings by WC Fields doesn't include it: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/w/w_c_fields.html
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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Nov 10, 2009 - 01:36am PT
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Drinking with him in the bar one night,
we were trashed, Bombay and tonic tall.
I ask Warren -
(with loose reference to the Rostrum)
"so, how come so many of your
FA's are now like, the most
popular climbs around?"
Harding puts down his glass and goes:
"Steve Roper said 'that's not a route,
that's not a route', and I said, fukk you
Steve Roper!"
true story
and, there was true anger in how he said it.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2009 - 02:03am PT
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Ray, awesome!!!!!!! Yeah, that is what I am talking about here. It is even kind of Shakespearean.
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Nov 10, 2009 - 02:10am PT
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Well, he put up the Nose, which is one of the best climbs on Earth. The East Face of the Column is now Astroman. Everyone likes Leaning Tower, despite all of the bolts on that one. Harding was as much a visionary as anyone else.
I am going to have to steal that Groucho Marx quote.
People questioning each others motives is a shallow and narcissistic act. Why not worry about figuring out your own motives rather than try to figure someone else out. I still don't know what motivates me to have adventures, and for the life of me I have tried.
Sometimes we are all petty. Remaining petty is for fools.
Ethics are in a way necessary, but they change over time. Hell, sport climbing has probably tripled the amount of climbable rock, and I remember everyone (me included, which I now see as childish) getting all worked up over chalk, then friends, then sticky rubber, then rap bolting. Screw it. I look back and see a lot of foolishness. Still do. You hear it every day right here.
Too bad Warren had to dick around with the standards of the day. You had to be a well read gentleman to be respected or something.
Sorry that Warren had to deal with that stuff. After all of these decades, it looks like he did what he wanted, and left some great climbs behind. The only difference these days seems to be taking Olde E on walls rather than cheap red wine.
Thumbing his nose at the AAC is hilarious. I used to write obscene notes in Sierra Club summit registers myself. I mean really obscene.
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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Nov 10, 2009 - 08:16am PT
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RE: "Plumbing the depths of insanity...."
What?
RE: "I'm sure Harding wasn't certifiable..."
Thanks for the post mortem Dx, uh, Lynne.
..................................................................>
EDIT:
what The Chief said...thanks.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 10, 2009 - 08:51am PT
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Balls not the size of 20 pound mellons, but he had the "higher spire".
I remember reading on this forum not long ago that Harding was really,
really tough, and did the 215 mile John Muir Trail in 4 1/2 days.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Nov 10, 2009 - 09:38am PT
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Every time I was around him it was pure joy.
I wanted nothing from him, I admired his crusty F*CK everybodyness (Because it was all done tongue in cheek with a giggle when I was around)
and I knew I was hanging out with a real living piece of history that wasn't going to be around forever. I just went with it.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 10, 2009 - 10:09am PT
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Roger Derryberry: "Warren was soooooooo funny."!!!!!!!!
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Nov 10, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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Wish Roger Derryberry would post up some stuff on Warren. He was one of Warrens best and closest friends and I'm sure he has stories galour to tell. Everytime I go by MillCreek Station outside of Bishop I try to stop in and see Roger. He loves to talk about Warren and we almost always go through his "museum" on Warren and Roger ALWAYS tells a different story, or points out something in the museum we didn't see the last time. He is a wealth of history and I treasure every visit with him to hear his recital of Back In The Day! Post up Roger...next time I swing by, I'm gonna bring a tape player, turn it on and let you talk till the sun comes up!
Peace
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 10, 2009 - 01:18pm PT
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I need no stinking badges!
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storer
Trad climber
Golden, Colorado
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Nov 10, 2009 - 02:00pm PT
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I climbed with Harding about '61 or '62 in the Valley. It was a Sierra Club Mother Lode Chapter rockclimbing trip led by Jack Rankin who was a climbing friend and fellow surveyor of Harding's in Sacramento. We were down to do Sunnyside bench, my first climb in the Valley and maybe my second climb period, I being in high school. Jack said that his friend Warren wanted to scout a new route up to the base of the NW face of Half Dome from Mirror Lake so that's what we did on Sunday. I was really impressed with Harding's 3rd class scrambling and, indeed, scared sh*less, but I was even more stunned when I, dying of thirst with a parched mouth and out of water, heard Harding deny a drink of water somebody had offered. He said, "no, I'm training for the walls." As I recall, he came to several "dynamic belay practice" sessions Jack held at some property he had down in the Sacramento river bottoms. We'd hoist a 200 lb concrete block up a tree using rope wrapped around a washing machine agitator bolted to Jack's car wheel. The belayer would request slack be let out (say, 20 feet of white Columbia) and the block would be dropped. The belayer used a hip belay with a leather butt patch and gloves. Smoke was produced, the belayer most often upended, and the lesson, in those days, was "the leader must not fall!" Times have certainly changed!
(Rankin obituary: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/sacbee/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=131730225);
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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Nov 10, 2009 - 02:55pm PT
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thanks again Peter et all for making this letter
available.
I like the part about "political in-fighting".
Pretty sure David Brower said the same of
the Sierra Club when he left.
EDIT: also of note is his mention of not only
Jerry Rubin, but Eldridge Cleaver as well.
Perhaps indicating he felt connected to,
or identified with, the cultural revolution
taking place in the big picture, all around him.
It was a questioning of conformity, as I recall.
And a suspicion of the establishment's rules
being used as a means of suppressing human
liberties, both in lifestyle, and creative self
expression.
Something, which Warren's actions may indicate,
he found unacceptable.
Who knows?
:-)
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Nov 10, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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Awesome stuff!
As a young one, I appreciate all this great history that gets posted here. Thanks for taking the time on this.
Cheers,
Tom
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Nov 10, 2009 - 07:25pm PT
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hey there peter hann.. say, thanks so very kindly for sharing this...
there is always more to man, than meets the eye...
even with letters, there is many a personal trail that leads to why one writes them....
i would have liked to been around somewhere, to listen to him and learn more of who he was, and such, as to his adventure...
hearling from a man's heart, etc, when he's not put-on-the-spot, and just happens to unfold, is very inteserting indeed...
god bless...
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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Nov 11, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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Well, Warren is gone,
and so we may write, think and say what we will.
History, as they say, is always written by the winners, anyway;
the ones with the coin and the material status, the ones who
the book publishers, movie makers, book buyers or consumers
of their products tend to favor.
Well OK.
And it is, OK.
Because, there is this thought, an idea
maybe
more than a thought
less than a thought
like a whisper in a faint breeze
circulating through aspects or human culture
for about as long as anyone knows...
That the battles we chose here
on the physical plane
are the child-like or insignificant embodiments of
the great archetypes themselves -
Essential conflicts that have circulated and raged
not only on our planet
but throughout the universe, forever...
Kinda hard to create a spark without friction, eh?
Such is life.
And so yes, Warren is gone, believe as you will.
But it may be wise to consider,
as we move through this brief manifestation
that remote or near impossible idea,
like a whisper in a faint breeze
that "he" might just be waiting...
on the other side.
:-)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 11, 2009 - 01:30pm PT
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"My once-keen analytical mind has become so dulled by endless hours of baking in the hot sun, thrashing about in tight chimneys, pulling at impossibly heavy loads.... so that now my mental state is comparable to that of a Peruvian Indian, well stoked on coca leaves..." — Warren Harding (1925-2002), Reflections on a broken down climber.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 11, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
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bump for Batso
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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and another bump
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Still a great thread!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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What ever drove him to join in the first place? An open bar buffet?
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
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Great post Peter, thanks for sharing.
I met Warren a handful of times a few years before he passed away. I was in awe of him and wanted to hear tales of lore.
"Tell us about Wall of Early Morning Light", I would ask. "The Nose, Leaning Tower, Porcelain Wall", I wanted to hear it ALL.
He shared a few tidbits, but then looked at us enthusiastic youngsters and said, "Listen, you all know what I've done. Tell ME what you guys are up to, that's what REALLY matters right now"
I was blown away and will never forget that moment. "Uhh, yeah well, we've been developing these techniques to climb faster", I began...
And just like that he turned the tables on us and he sat back and listened with a big grin on his face.
A classic night that will remain in my memory forever.
Thanks Warren!
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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I met Warren for the first time about 30 years ago in the Lodge parking lot - the morning after I had topped out on a winter solo of the West Face of the Leaning Tower. I'll never forget his B.A.T. shirt and that devilish face. What a time and a place to run into my hero!
The last time I saw Warren was in 1993 at his 69th birthday party and a meeting of the LSED&FS. Warren and I shared a bottle of Tequila. We still have some of the LSED&FS signs from the party.
We got this business card from Alice at the party. Sadly, she died in car crash many years later.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I don't have heroes. I think hero worship is stupid.
And yet... And yet... Yeah, Warren Harding is my hero.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Even though my flap eared copy of Downward Bound is almost
falling apart, it is one of the best books I own!!!
I wish I could have met him.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Who has the rights to B.A.T.?
It would be wicked cool to have a bunch of modern B.A.T. T-shirts made up.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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It would be wicked cool to have a bunch of modern B.A.T. T-shirts made up.
Nature did a bunch of B.A.T. T-shirts about three or four years ago. I bought one and wear it with pride when the right occasion arises.
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Warren sounds like he was alot of fun to be around both on the wall, and partying around the campfire. Love the stories. Let's hear some more. Did Royal Robbins crew and Warren not get along?
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Yeti
Trad climber
Ketchum, Idaho
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Warren was wicked intelligent. Warren was really funny. Warren was his own man and nobody's fool. Warren was wonderful as well as being the essence of what climbing is (or should be, in my opinion) about. Warren enjoyed life and climbing and took himself seriously enough to get the job done but not seriously enough to ruin the enjoyment and the ability to laugh at himself and, of course, others of a more serious demeanor. And, yes, Warren spent lots of time in Truckee, some of it curled up on my living room floor with a bottle of wine, telling fine stories and sometimes sleeping. One of his best slide show presentations took place in The Passage in Truckee, and anyone present will remember it, or maybe not.
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Anywhere I like
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@ray Olson those posts are great and so is the thread. My friend told me some stories about turning down Warrens advances on some over night on a ledge... when she was sixteen. What a rock star
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Warren was a rock star and perhaps the greatest character I've ever met.
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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I met Warren in 1969 and had the good fortune to be around Camp 4 when he was, so I got to know him pretty well. He was my hero as were Pratt and the other guys. But Warren had a fire that they lacked. He was funny as can be and was not on the snobby side like some of the "Valley Elite". You must remember that many of his routes were done before the improvement in gear. When the Nose was climbed for the second time the guys had a full, modern pin rack that was not available when Harding did many of his climbs... so you may scoff at seeing a bolt next to some hairline or wide crack on some of his routes but he did what he had to do with the available equipment. Robbins and Frost both said that Harding climbed the Nose in the only manner that it could be climbed AT THAT TIME.
I think it interesting that some said he should have given way to others who could climb in a "better style"... he would always laugh about that one!! Imagine seeing a line like the Nose and thinking... oh I think I should wait until equipment has advanced enough so I can climb it in better style!!! Hell, he invented big wall climbing, not Chongo!! Sure the boys climbed the Reg on the Dome earlier but that style of climbing was not big wall climbing, as we have come to know it, for it took Harding and his persistance to figure out how to live up there for so long.
He was a great man in many respects and I counted him as a friend.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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The late T. Burke and I partied with Warren and some of his lady friends in the tubs above the Ahwahnee after climbing Serenity and Maxine's. It was a clothing optional affair. I think Strappo may have been there as well. What a great guy to hang out with. A true icon.
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jstan
climber
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Harding prolly had normal size testicles ( anybody ?! )
OK! That's it. Time to ban Tami.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
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Really important post, Warbler. Critical to getting understanding what the hell happened to him in the last part of his life and his funny but bizarre Blackface theater that sprang up. Basically the guy had been bullied and abused, his native feet finally dragged to the abstract fire of an uncomprehending and socially very different power elite of the time. I think this was american rockclimbing's worst hour. Everything would have worked out so much better if there had not been an erasure of a third of his greatest route, the one with which he would conclude his most serious climbing.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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If you knew anything about Warren, he was
very different under the influence than not. His ideas,
his sense of the world, often radically conflicted from one
realm to the other. When I want to get "centered," let's say, I always
hearken back to Pratt's article on Watkins, where Chuck gives Warren
his every due and more. I think Chuck really knew the best Warren,
the part we know on some deeper level.
Many individuals, I think, have a great side
and various other sides. Warren flaunted his bizarre
sides. In the last years he added a mean side, as Charlie Fowler
noted, perhaps as a result of a switch from wine to the harder stuff.
The side I remember is the completely inexplicable side,
call it that. He and I had a wonderful conversation
one evening in Camp 4, circa 1965-6 in which he
joked that I was like him, one of the worst people in the Sierra, and
we were a readymade team. We made plans to do a new route on El Cap,
and I was ready and began to plan all aspects of that. In the morning,
he had no memory of talking with me. I was not angry, just...
amused. I didn't try to have the conversation with him sober. That
just didn't seem right.
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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The only thing I have read about the chopping of Harding's route was in a Climbing magazine article about the century's best climbs and climbers. Harding had been profiled recently so they didn't profile him again but they did profile Royal Robbins. In the article Robbins says they chopped the route about halfway and then stopped realizing that there was no other protection and the route was high quality and in fact was NOT overbolted. They said in the article that Harding and about 20 others met them at the top with champagne/wine and a big party ensued. I never got the impression from the article that there was much bad blood between the two. Obviously there was.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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There is always more to every story, and the climbing mags,
with all due respect, rarely get it right.
Royal, my good friend, was kind of on a mission to play policeman
and oversee the bolting scene. I think he meant well, wanted to
preserve the high standard he, Frost, and others set on various routes,
in terms of numbers of bolts. I know he feared Harding's route
was going to have far too many bolts and so decided to make a
statement. Not only was it a huge amount of work to remove those bolts,
but yes I think he began to realize the route had a reasonable
amount of them. Royal definitely was conflicted, wondered if he
should be dictating the terms of someone else's ascent. So he
quit chopping and just did the climb. I think Lauria could add
so much here about that climb. Royal had put people in their places,
as it were, before, and it really never did end well. He and Harding
had a great deal of respect for one another, as leaders of two
different generations. Harding's ribald approach to life was at
once endearing and funny yet on another level a kind of affront to
the serene mentality of Robbins and Frost and the standards just by
example they seemed to impose upon the climbing world... Royal
and Warren had a very peculiar relationship. The two were
friends, for the most part, and had a lot of respect for one another,
but Royal could get under almost anyone's nerves at times with his
"self-righteous" approach, and Warren did not pay anyone or anything
any particular respect. I think through the years Royal mellowed
and grew to appreciate Harding more the way Chuck did. While Warren
acknowledged Royal's greatness and got along with him he always
had a sore spot for the things Royal did to demean him.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Having fun with Harding 1962.
Guido, Warren and Mort the musician.
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Nick
climber
portland, Oregon
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Not much of a story really. As a seventeen year old, underage youngster I got kicked out of the mountain room bar one night in 76'. As slouched out of the center of the valley party world, an older guy in a big greasy down jacket who was slouched against one of the poles asked me if I got kicked out and did I want a drink? I spent a very memorable night drinking with Warren and the next morning with my head pounding I could hardly remember a thing we talked about.
I few years ago I happened to catch a slide show Dean Caldwell did on the Wall of the Early Morning Light. It was really great to see all those photos of Warren and Dean in their heyday.
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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During the last days of Warren's life, Royal went up and stayed with Warren for some time, and I would dearly love to learn what they did and did not speak about. I have SO been hoping that Royal, if he can't finish all his projected volumes of his autobiography, would tell the world how their relationship was at the end. Surely, the narrative would be one-sided, but that is one more side than we, who knew them and their deeds, have to go on now.
That said, it would also be lovely to see that Royal could move with his climbing achievements into a more human and humane way of seeing the world. Who is Royal on the deeper levels inside? Does he even go there? Can he write as eloquently about his inner world and his relationships as he has done about his outer one?
Perhaps someone else was there who could tell us what transpired during Royal and Warren's last meeting(s). Anyone know of someone who was present during that time?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2012 - 12:42am PT
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Terrific question, Ken. And again, Warbler, great points indeed.
If anyone was there, it was probably the last gal friend. What a good question and how awfully poignant. One can try to imagine the situation as Warren passes, Royal bedside....
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aw, this is all breaking my heart.
Really gonna ban Tami?
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Park Rat
Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
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I find this conversation about Robins and Harding especially compelling. Each of you has a true reading of Harding as you remembered him.
He was a very complex personality, depending on what year and what state of inebriation he was in at the time you were talking to him.
I touched on this in my post of (A few notes on the life of Warren Harding).
When sober Warren Harding definitely respected Royal as a climber, more than that he envied his success as a family man and as a businessman. I heard this directly from Warren late and 1971, at that time he was depressed about his own fate in terms of his history as a climber in Yosemite.
He felt that the flap over the Wall of Early Morning Light climb had ruined his reputation as a climber.
I personally see this as his last great climbing achievement. I also recognize that when he made this climb he was in the worst physical shape of his life, due to the accident the year before which broke his leg and shattered his right knee. He was in pain for the rest of his life due to this accident. His friend and climbing partner Galen Rowell and was sure that Warren would never be able to climb again after he saw the damage to his leg.
Eight months later Galen saw Warren going up the mist trail with a huge pack. He commented at the time that, Warren with only one good leg was stronger than most men with two good legs. They finished the SF of Half Dome climb two months later.
When Warren topped out of WEML he felt he had overcome everything, his age, his physical infirmity and yes his dependent's on alcohol. That is why he celebrated this achievement more than any other.
In light of this, it is easy to understand how devastated Warren was when Royal decided to erase his route.
I understand Warren was in Chicago doing an interview when he heard about what Royal had done. In characteristic Harding aplomb, he shrugged off the news as if it did not bother him.
If it had stopped there the damage might have been forgotten, however the controversy was front page for the rest of 1971. It appeared to Warren that all of the climbers, except a few of his best friends were against him.
It was said that he was too old, too out of date and had placed too many bolts on a climb that should not have been made. It is only with hindsight we now judge him with less critical eyes. You had to be there to understand how much he was criticized and how he interpreted this criticism. Warren could not comprehend what it happened to him.
The good news is that indeed both Royal and Harding did mellow as the years went by, in the late 70s Warren was actually giving climbing talks at Royals place.
Did Harding truly forgive and forget, I suspect that he was sober he was able to put on a good face. However after 1971, 72 Warren was inebriated much of the time, so many stories have appeared that suggest that he held a lot of resentment towards Royal for his erasing the route.
Alice was Warren Harding's last companion told me that Warren was in and out of consciousness when he was visited by Royal and his friends. It is not likely that any meaningful conversation took place. It is my understanding that Royal was not sure that Harding was aware of his being there at the end with him.
Sorry for being so long-winded, but I wanted to connect some of the dots in this intriguing story.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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mountainlion,
The only thing I have read about the chopping of Harding's route was in a Climbing magazine article .... In the article Robbins says they chopped the route about halfway
This is not an accurate description of what happened. They chopped just a couple of pitches.
There is a lot of info on the climb and chopping in Rowell's The Vertical World of Yosemite.
Or take a look at the Hockey Night topo. The original Dawn Wall joins it at (4) and the rivet ladder on p7 is original Dawn.
The original Dawn Wall route itself is kinda sad, because there are a lot of rivets and a few years later Mescalito crossed it with a lot fewer rivets.
But part of it was bad luck. It has a long rivet traverse to "The Dihedrals", which turned out to be blank. So he had to drill rivets up those as well....
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2012 - 10:47am PT
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Thanks Rat. That answers the big poignant question what kind of interaction actually took place bedside. It is significant to note that some of Royal's early life was spent abused by a father and drunk stepfather. In short it had been tough. I think Royal in his later life has developed increased coping skills with people, probably has been finally thrilled to find he can bridge this archetypal gap he has carried in himself as a wound for so long. And of course the brotherhood of the rope can achieve many good things.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Park Rat, that photo of Harding with the B.A.T. T-shirt is the same sight I saw when I ran into Harding in the Lodge parking lot that one day. Funny, it was winter and snowing - yet there he was in a T-shirt.
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Park Rat
Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
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Thank you for your comment Peter. I sometimes worry that because I'm not a climber, I do not belong in the conversation. Then I stop and remind myself that he spent two years chatting with Warren.
It's only because I've spent the last few years reading and asking many questions about Warren that I'm able to fill in the gaps in his often quirky behavior.
I feel that I was lucky to know the Harding who was so friendly and happy go lucky, before the criticism of 1971 started to weigh him down.
I was not drawn to Harding because of his exploits as a climber, and certainly not by his personal appearance at the time. He was a head shorter, much older always rumpled and often less than well groomed.
What drew me to him was his incredible ability to charm you off your feet in a matter of seconds, he was brimming with enthusiasm wanted to know what I was doing and could he do anything to help me. Such as loaning me camping equipment for two years. I often ask myself why he bothered being so interested in me as I was not his girlfriend or in his circle of friends. The answer seems to be that he truly enjoyed people who were not climbers and did not care that I did not know one end of a rope from another.
The picture of Royal and Harding was taken at a trade show probably in the late 70s.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
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Rat, you are very much part of the treasures of Valley climbing. Please no deference. Your probing into Warren's story is very valuable and as a non climber it provides additional perspective.
Absolutely right Warbler, on all of that. I remember sitting at Royal and Liz's dinner table in the winter of 1971 just after RR and Lauria had pulled their caper. RR was having a hard time placing their act and the actual experience into what he thought or hoped would be its final perspective. He was obviously embarrassed about the aborted erasure aspect of their climb and already was admitting there was now a new problem from what they had done. At the same time there was this worrisome issue no one could fix of the huge-ass publicity monster that had been unleashed upon us all as you mention Kevin and also what at the time seemed like Warren and Dean's grotesque conduct up the wall, at least in comparison to how ascents by that point in time were being done. The eleven year difference in RR and Warren's ages also put into play psychological content that might not have been there for Royal if they had been contemporaries. Although these two men had very different miens and tastes, their backgrounds intermingled in some upsetting ways that triggered difficult emotions for them both.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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I was lucky to meet Warren in Moab at Eric Bjornstad's place. We spent an evening with them and our posse (Gordo and...)on one of our annual southwest trips (16 easter weeks in a row). It was an honor and delight. I wish I could remember more.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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Good point Rik, that is just what I am saying here. These two men were bound together on a bunch of levels, some of these levels not even known to them.
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Park Rat
Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
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Peter thank you for your kind words.
Back in 1970 /71 I viewed climbing as sweaty, dirty & dangerous.
Today I read the various trip reports and see a very different picture. I appreciate the courage and tenacity as well as the physical ability that it takes to be a proficient climber. I enjoy reading the first person stories of the various climbers. I guess you can say that you can teach an old dog new trick. I have just turned 70, I like to think I am still learning new things and can still form new opinions.
The hard part of dealing with Harding's story is his addiction to alcohol. I often find myself thinking that considering his dependence on alcohol from an early age it's really amazing that he was able to do any of the climbing feats that he is known for today. His drive to conquer the walls did overcome his drinking for many years. In the end of course it caught up with him and certainly injured many of his personal as well as family relationships. I am learning about more detail of his family life from one of his relatives. I can only say he did not leave all of his bad behavior in the Mountain room or at camp4.
Saying all that I still remember him before alcohol took complete control of his life. If I can share my kinder, nicer image of him with all of you, then I have done a good job.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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Rat, leave behind the whole Warren, in other words the Real Warren. This is what we all should do.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Susie,
are you still working on a book about Warren?
John
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Fascinating thread.
What an opportunity lost! Those idiots. We might have gotten to know more than we--yes, even Tami!--wanted to know about his testicles.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Things above.
The shot of Harding and Robbins was, yes, at a trade show but
much later than the 70s, at the Reno trade show in 1991.
About fathers and stepfathers beating Royal. Based on my conversations
with Royal, he was never abused by his father Shannon, rather
simply abandoned -- which definitely hurt Royal.
James Chandler was another matter, the alcoholic
stepfather who was violent and both physically and psychologically
abusive. He made Royal take the name of Jimmy Chandler. Beulah and
James were only married for a little over five years, but it was a
tough time, undoubtedly. Royal
always was strong, though, and independent. If he had any real
fault it might be his absolute trust in himself and his own mind and
subsequently his sense that his point of view was the right one.
He had built some of his character out of hardship and continued
to do so as a climber. He found the best of all worlds
in climbing. It quickly became his own. With climbing, it seemed,
Royal not only furthered his confidence but built a kind of
psychological "tower" into which he could escape the world's evils.
That's badly put, but the gist. I think he has always appreciated
the existence life has given him, and naturally he has mellowed
somewhat. Yet his coldness, as people have perceived it, and his
arrogance, fanatical self-reliance, to the point that it has
always been difficult for him to be taught others, and
his condescension at times, all such...
are part of his defenses... which seem at times to be with
him even today. He and Warren were a real match, in terms of
egos. I don't mean that in a derrogatory sense.
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Park Rat
Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
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(Rat, leave behind the whole Warren. This is what we all should do.)
Not sure I can do that & still tell his story.
John, yes I am still plugging along. I have some health issues keeping my attention this year. Like Harding would say, I will keep on, going on.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Susie, good!
Sorry to hear about the health issues, but at 70 things go downhill fast, as I am find out for myself at "only" 62. I hope it's minor like the aches and pains of aging arthritis and nothing worse!
As for working on a book about Warren, wow it has to frustrating just to get information from the dwindling number of people who could help out with your project.
Susie, your work IS important because you had a unique relationship with Warren that was not climbing related.
I hope you had a chance to visit with Alice before she died.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Really enjoyed reading this thread. Great perspectives and insights, thanks Peter and everyone else.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
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What a great post, Crunch. A Playboy rejection letter to Galen regarding Warren with a Sheridan cartoon.
One would like to imagine---hypothesize actually---that if Warren hadn't been 'shot down' sort of at the peak of his climbing powers and instead had flourished in a way he privately had undoubtedly hoped (perhaps even imagining a great triumph with the WEML) he would not then have really let alcohol continue to increase its hold on him, in fact flat out kill him. But alcoholism is so terrifically problematic and one of the great and deadly adversaries for an individual. Regardless of what might be going on around someone, alcoholism will trump everything else and be by itself alone, the active and crucial issue, all other issues benched. It is that compelling to its victims.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There seem some parallels between Whillans and Harding in later life. After being rejected by Bonington and the establishment in the early 1970s, most notably for the 1975 Everest southwest face expedition, Whillans turned to a self-destructive life of drinking and smoking - although, as with Harding, he continued to have an attractive, subversive persona. Those, and becoming something a caricature of himself, seem to have been Whillans' raison d'etre in later life. Like Harding, he had it under control while at the peak of his game, and was a superlatively strong climber. Then quickly lost it, perhaps with aging.
You wonder about Freudian things, also. Robbins was younger than Harding, just as Bonington was younger than Whillans. Both were to some extent mentored by the older man, although Bonington perhaps more so, and both Robbins and Bonington came from broken homes. Hmmm.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
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Yeah Mighty Anders, good. Let's make no mistake. Climbers need each in all sorts of ways, sometimes even desperately. Imagine spending that much time, effort and risk and NOT needing your partners ever--- that would be effing psychotic, primitive even. But usually the human condition and need for support remains downplayed in climbing far too much, even today still as we make so much progress in this respect.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 16, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
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I only briefly met Warren in C4 BITD, never really knew or spoke with him.
Peter, so true about alcoholism. Last year, The World Health Organization (WHO) came out with a report listing 30 substances that are abused, in two categories, Firstly, the damage done to the individual, and secondly the harm to society.
Guess which substance came in number one in both categories. It is a neurotoxin and it caused my partner's (Jennie) medical condition, and took a lot of people like Warren out of the picture.
As one of her doctors said, if alcohol was discovered today, it would be illegal, a Class A drug like heroin and cocaine. But as my GP said, it is so ingrained in much of human society.
I don't mean to be lecturing or preaching.
I wish I had known Batso a bit more. Another legend I only briefly met, Fred Beckey, at least is still going strong, hopefully.
I didn't really know any of the others. Such as Pratt, Robbins and Chouinard, met them in C4, but I was a beginner and in awe of them. I bouldered with Galen at Indian Rock, Berkeley. And Bridwell once, I was fourth (not the FA though) up the rope on Lunatic Fringe. Climbed with Charlie Porter a couple of times (no walls though).
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
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For sure Patrick; the world would be very different without ethanol. I am sure I would not like it mostly, much more rational much more progressive thought it would be. Imagine being without benefit of all those wonderful beverages. It would be hard on other primates too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pmnzIhbX2bg
Even some animals make ethanol from scratch and many more will try to steal it manmade, even elephants invading rice beer breweries. I understand there is a type of monkey somewhere that smashes fruit into upright hollow log ends, waits for the mash to ferment shortly and then goes about getting terrifically drunk when that time quickly arrives. But of course far more radically, jaguars commonly eat yaje (yajeh) plants, then roll around and play "kitten", perhaps high perhaps not without the benefit of a MAOI to let the DMT through the blood barrier.
The desire to transcend is so great everywhere but so often this world must put that need on a scale and pile costs and pain on the other end.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 16, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
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There is a difference in that usage of alcohol in moderation is not (for most) addictive or harmful, although it may be, especially for the 5 - 10% who are susceptible. There is no safe "dose" for most other self-administered drugs, e.g. tobacco.
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Hardshell
Trad climber
Ketchum Idaho
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Sep 16, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
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I have two memories of Warren--the first on a snowy May night in about 1975 in the Valley--drinking excessively at the bar with warren and others---the crew was starting to break up and warren stumbled out into the dark. After a few minutes several of us left and decided to catch up with warren--we followed his tracks across the parking lot, thru the wet snow and under a parked tour bus. We pulled him out and shouldered him off into the night as the tour bus loaded and pulled away.
The second was at a mid-70's debate in Seattle sponsored by the legendary Swallow's Nest climbing store--between well known ethical puritan Ken Wilson, esteemed editor of Mountain Magazine the leading climbing magazine at the time, and Warren. The went at each other for over an hour in front of about 800 people in a UW lecture hall. After it was over, at the usual Swallow's Nest beer bash, I spoke with Ken and he was nearly distraught---he said Harding was much smarter, more clever and logical than he had assumed...clearly frustrated, he exclaimed "I think he got the better of me tonight..!"
Both memories capture the extremes of the man.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 16, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
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Ah...Wilson, I am sure pompous and pontificating.....Harding sly, drunk, clever- a night for the ages. It is sad that Warren fell prey to alcoholism, he was so talented- both athletically and intellectualy. Alcohol, climbing's biggest pitfall. We all joke about climbers we know drinking 20 beers a day. My best army friend and my first climbing partner did that. I was the one who talked his mother and his girlfriend into telling the doctors to pull the plug. He died from sclerosis of the liver at age 56.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Thanks Peter - and all - for this thread.
I was a bit disappointed in “Valley Uprising’s” depiction of Harding. Yes, he loved the wine. He never drank or took drugs on any climb I did with him, although I do recall he took a bottle on Royal Arches before I met him. Yes, he occasionally had a sports car, usually well-used - but we drove up for the Nose in his old station wagon. And he indeed loved the ladies, as who doesn’t. He and a lovely friend actually lived with Cindy and me in the “back bedroom” of a 28 foot trailer when I was first a ranger, and I can’t say anything about the 20-pounders but there was no lack of testosterone. But he wasn’t just a wild drunk, and he did care about what people thought.
His intelligence was underrated. We had some wonderful wide-ranging conversations as the gallon of mountain red or the bottle of Paul Masson Rare Tawny Port diminished, and those conversations and his crazy sense of humor made some otherwise miserable bivouacs quite memorable. We laughed our heads off some nights on the Nose - without the wine. I don’t know if anyone heard us. Would have sounded quite mad.
It took a lot of sauce to make him maudlin, but when he got there you found that he cared about others’ opinions. “”Everybody is out to get Harding, goddamit!” he said a few times.
He had great respect for Royal’s abilities - it was just the attitude that irritated him. Royal wrote one time - I can’t remember where “...a first ascent is a work of art, and anyone who climbs it afterward should do it exactly the same way.” That really set him off, and me too.
He had other outdoor interests besides climbing. One summer and part of a winter he and I got into diving in Mother Lode rivers with wet suits, a little suction dredge and pump, and a “Hookah” air compressor and air line. We dove through ice on the South Fork one winter and I’ll never forget the pain of returning circulation. Never found ten bucks worth of gold, but we had a lot of fun.
He was generous with his friends, too. Warren was a working man. He could only climb weekends or holidays or when unemployed, and was never really flush for cash. I was even poorer, going to SJS on the GI Bill on $100/mo., and he usually came down from Sacto. to San Jose to pick me up on the way to Yosemite. I couldn’t afford to drive my ’50 Studebaker. He bought a lot of the gear for the Nose, including most of the fixed ropes that the NPS mandated we fix all the way as there could be no rescue. When Cindy and I got hitched, he gave us a Kelty pack, which was a pretty pricey item for most of us those days.
There was a lot more to Warren than is generally recognized, and I’m grateful for the thread. Thanks, all.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Thanks for a great post FC - people tend to get "larger than life" and it's nice to get personal perspective checks on the other-wise perceived "public personas", and all the blow-out that follows.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Warren's story is always gonna play in Peoria.
People gotta have heroes, the more complex the better.
It's really about the alcohol, far as I'm concerned. I lived sorta near by the "Harding Site" in C4 in '70, but I never talked to Warren or to Beryl, not having had an intro. I'd met Roger and Mary Lou in Fresno thru Millis, who knew EVERYONE from Ostin to Suhl and back to Peter Haan, even.
I recall one "loud" party and someone said Batso was really on a roll, but we were settling in for bed for an early start, so that was probably my chance to party with that crew. They had their ropes on the wall. Things were about to let loose.
To reassure Tami, I never noticed anything weird about Warren's gait. :0)
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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I loved your post, Wayne. A hundred a month, you gotta be kidding!
And what Peter said:
"Regardless of what might be going on around someone, alcoholism will trump everything else and be by itself alone,
the active and crucial issue, all other issues benched. It is that compelling to its victims."
This is the Absolut truth they don't like you to know.
The poignancy of this story lies right there, in the fact that Warren failed to cope with his addiction.
And also in the fact that he considered this climb his ultimate route but it got trashed
by a temporarily deranged but well-meaning fanatic who can nonetheless be forgiven on the basis of his not erasing the WHOLE route.
Park Rat, Susie, I hope you are healthier. God bless you for your hard work.
Now all you have an opportunity to take the pledge.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Reminds me of the (more measured) series of resignation letters R.P. Feynman sent to the National Academy of Sciences. It took several tries for him to convince them that he really did want nothing to do with the NAS.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Oct 10, 2015 - 06:10pm PT
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Thanks Wayne and I am glad you posted your feelings as they carry a lot of weight from days of old. I was also deeply bothered by the portrayal of Harding but there were so many other glaring inaccuracies that I took it for granted that the goal was to sell and the hell with the facts.
Having spent quality time with Ken Wilson in England on several occasions I have fond memories of his energy and intellectual drive. I have met few people that can match his incisive questioning and curiosity and it would have been fun to see him go head to head with Warren.
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gilly
climber
Mohawk Valley,Ca
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Oct 10, 2015 - 08:20pm PT
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Thanks Peter, always love hearing BATSO stories. I was a good friend of Jim Harper and boy you better believe he had some great stuff on Warren to share! A rare treat to hear first hand from someone who was there. Thanks again
Gill P.S. I believe Beasto was at Jims memorial service !
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 11, 2015 - 07:15am PT
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I sat around a few campfires in Camp 4 in the early 70's while Warren held court. There was always a jug of cheap red wine close at hand and the banter was definetly fueled by it. Even so, Warrens intelligence was evident in the biting wit of his repartee. He was definetly a multi faceted person.
Warren was the perfect foil to Robbins. For many, Royal's personality ran counter to the bohemian culture of Camp 4.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2015 - 08:11am PT
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The eleven years' seniority Warren had over Royal and even more over most everyone else climbing was a large aspect of how WH would fit in and how he fashioned himself as time wore on. And to look at WH back then as a young aspiring climber, there was a huge gap between us; he was nearly forty when I began climbing for instance, but still he had one and a half decades remaining of real climbing.
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Scoop
Mountain climber
Truckee, CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 09:48am PT
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A brief story. When I was 14 I was yearning to be a climber. Shortly after Hardings' Climb of Dawn Wall, I called a Warren Harding in Sacramento. He said, "No, I am not that Warren Harding, call his mother Agness." So I called Agness. She said Warren was living up in Truckee, actually Russell Valley, but that a friend was driving up to go climbing with Warren and why didn't I catch a ride with him to see Warren.
So a 14 year old kid shows up at Warren's cabin unannounced. This is at a time when Warren is arguably the most famous climber in the word. He treated me like family. Included me in a wild party that night where I drank my first beer. He took me climbing the next day, Kindergarden Crack on Donner Summit. He was as kind and generous as anyone I have met.
Fast forward 30 years, I moved to Truckee to run a conservation organization. One of my board members got Warren to come down to do three slides shows (he was living up near Redding) as fundraisers. He was drunk most of the time. The first show was at "The Passage," a popular Truckee eatery and bar, 15 years ago. The whole show I remember Warren saying, "Who cares, let's go to the bar." A second show in Reno was pretty sad. We had pizza before the show next door to the rock gym where he was presenting. Warren ordered wine. The waitress asked, red or white? Warren ordered carafes of both. He actually lost his balance and fell a couple of times during the show.
The third show in Truckee was completely packed. He had not been drinking that day and nailed it.
Warren said a lot during the three days, but I was most struck by how a thought that climbing was always just for fun. He was proud not to be a Valley dweller, "I had a job and had to work." For those from Truckee, you may not know that Warren was the road engineer that laid out Tahoe Donner.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 09:56am PT
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Wow, if the preceding page isn't the most awesome ever on ST then show me the money!
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Oct 16, 2015 - 10:02am PT
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Perhaps the tragedy was his lack of appreciation of how much of my own climbing career was a homage
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josan
Boulder climber
Chapel Hill, North Carolina
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Oct 16, 2015 - 10:12am PT
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To know him was to love him... no other - a legend. It really doesn't matter whether he was 'right' or 'wrong'... he WAS!
I had the good fortune to spend last hours with Warren - Mary Lou and Roger.
Yes, a legend and an extremely irreverent and funny man!
Jo Sanders
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Oct 16, 2015 - 10:18am PT
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For those from Truckee, you may not know that Warren was the road engineer that laid out Tahoe Donner.
I lived in Truckee for a decade and never knew that. Thanks.
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Camster (Rhymes with Hamster)
Social climber
CO
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Oct 16, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
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I lived with Warren and Alice in Moab for about 2 weeks in 1991.
I went there with a friend to talk to him about the NE Ridge of Williamson, one of his most underrated achievements considering he was so new to climbing then.
For that 2 weeks my friend Paul and I slept on air mattresses in the basement. We had hoped to get in some climbing but the weather was ridiculous----snowing [blizzarding, really] every day.
But we were pretty much doomed from the start as Warren kept us up til all hours, boozing and watching television, and occasionally talking climbing. Alice would wander off to bed around 11 pm, and hours later, Warren would too. I remember him saying "I really like sex, you know. And I think I'm pretty good at it."
Then, about 10:30 am, Warren would show up at the air mattresses and start kicking them, martini glass in hand, and say: "Time to get up Camdawg. Time to get up."
At the time, R&I had just done a cover story called "Yosemite Climbers" or something. It had (I think) the Hubers on the cover. There was no or little mention of Warren in the magazine. Warren held it up and said something like: "Aren't I a Yosemite climber? F*#k these people."
One funny comment was when we were watching some tennis match really late at night. Warren pointed at the TV and said" "This game is insane. I don't even understand what these people are trying to do."
Sounds a bit like climbing.
Anyway, he gave me a couple of signed Downward Bounds when we were leaving, which was pretty nice on his part. I treasure them to this day.
A year later or so, my girlfriend Ann and I went to visit Warren and Alice. Warren was pretty blasted when we got there (10 o'clock or something) and was wearing this huge white t-shirt. My wife----who loves animals----squatted down to pet one of his dogs. Warren wandered into the room and asked my wife if she wanted a drink. She looked up to say no, and realized the t-shirt was the only thing Warren was wearing.
Good times. He was part of my growing up, and I still miss him.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Oct 16, 2015 - 03:44pm PT
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Warren Harding was one bold, badass climber, one of the best rockclimbers who ever lived. Climb one of his routes and imagine being up there with 1950s gear, handmade pitons, a handful of heavy ass carabiners, pieces of rope for slings, prussik knots for ascenders, on a 2,000 ft or longer route that had never been climbed. None of the big wall mechanics that we take for granted had been worked out yet...youre running low on food and out of water and yet you press on. My admiration for the man and his courage and vision has no limits.
There are stiuations on the nose that are unimaginable on the FA, being the first to do the king swing? The belay at the end of the great roof? The final bolt ladder, put up in an overnight push, is an ungodly achievement. Most of Hardings original 1/4" hand drilled bolts were still in use when i climbed it. I tried to put myself in his place, drilling bolt after bolt, the next one always way over your head, in the dark... theres no way. It took a character with a level of courage, drive and physical ability that few possess.
Hats off to the incomparable Warren Harding. Rest in peace
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Oct 16, 2015 - 06:13pm PT
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I'm so psyched this got bumped
Batso forever
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Oct 17, 2015 - 12:44am PT
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An aside - I finally met royal robbins when he did a slide show st A-16 in san diego, maybe 15 years ago. Ive always really admired Robbins, so after the show i approached him and introduced myself and told him that he has always been my inspiration. He was gracious and we chatted a little bit and then i asked him about the dawn wall. I always thought that it showed great character to listen to his conscience and reverse himself in front of the whole world, and i only wanted to tell him that i looked up to him for that.
I asked how many pitches he had taken down before he quit pulling bolts. He said 5 or 6 in a terse, irritated tone, then said "i was going to be in big trouble no matter what i did at that point" It was clear that the issue was still very raw with him after all those years. End of conversation.
I had this old copy of advanced rockcraft that i had him autograph later on. As he signed it i told him that when i climbed the nose i had never followed a tension traverse, and that i did it by remembering the pictures in advanced rockcraft. His reply "thats more like it, thats the kind of story i want to hear".
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 17, 2015 - 11:09am PT
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How did I miss the beginning of this thread way back in 2009?
Approaching my 84th year in existence and the memories will dim if not illuminated with occasional flashes forced remembrance.
Warren and I were friends - a friendship that grew closer in our old age. We had some great times together. The only time we ever discussed the Dawn Wall was in print - in his book "Downward Bound". Never had a verbal exchange on the subject.
Nor have I ever exchanged views with Royal on the Dawn Wall subject except on the first bivouac when we decided to quit chopping bolts - about 4 pitches up, maybe a 7th of the entire route.
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snake
Mountain climber
sebastopol
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Oct 17, 2015 - 05:28pm PT
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I met Warren in the fall of 1967 when I was a badly scared little boy in way over his head on my first big Valley climb, the Lost Arrow. After silently watching my partner and I aimlessly thrash he calmly suggested how we might prevent seriously hurting or even killing ourselves. I never climbed with him again, but we did drink a lot of wine together later on. Did he drink too much? Obviously. Did he drive too fast? Yes. Did he have too many girlfriends? Well,that's not possible. Did he place too many bolts on his first ascents? Debatable.
Even after the NW face of Half Dome had been climbed El Cap was regarded as impossible;just too f** big. Warren was the only one with a big enough pair of steel balls to not only go up on it, but to also have the tenacity, perseverance and mental stamina to stick it out until he succeeded. Criticize his style if you like, but you can't argue with the bottom line; he went up and did it while everyone else was lying around Camp 4 smoking dope and day dreaming. I've forgotten how many critiques I've read comparing his 18 month ascent of The Nose with the 7 day 2nd ascent a few years later. Virtually none of these accounts delve into the advantages the 2nd ascent party had; they knew it could be done,the route had been worked out,the bolts placed and the equipment was better. I've yet to read a critique comparing the 2nd ascent of the Nose with Lynn Hill's one day free ascent or the numerous sub 3 hour climbs made by today's elite.
In 1954 Roger Bannister became the first human to run a sub 4 minute mile at a time when that feat was also considered impossible. Last spring 2 high school athletes went sub 4 and the current world record is 3:43. Do these later performances detract from Bannister's accomplishment? All of you, every one of you should give Warren his due. He was visionary enough to be the first and he was the person who broke the barrier that today allows bare foot pimply-faced 17 year old kids from Iowa to do The Big Stone on their first trip to The Valley. I also seriously doubt if many of his critics could have emulated his performance on the first ascent of the south face of Mt. Watkins with Pratt and Chouinard.
Excuse me all to hell, but tenacity, perseverance and mental toughness are just as big a part of climbing as is style and ethics. As is what I consider to be Warren's most endearing personality characteristic; an almost complete disdain for authority figures. He went out climbed and led his life as he saw fit in spite of how the "Valley Christians" felt and some of his first ascents are still among the most popular climbs in "The Valley." Had Warren lived on the East Coast there is no doubt in my mind that he would have been a member of the Vulgarians. RIP Batso. "Semper Farcisimus." Walt Vennum, Sebastopol, Calif.
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oldguy
climber
Bronx, NY
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Oct 21, 2015 - 05:06pm PT
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Well, I was just going to pass by this thread in silence, but the previous post needed a gentle reply. I thought all of us on the 2nd ascent of the Nose made it clear that we could not have done the climb but for all the labor that Harding and Powell and Dolt and later Merry and a few others put into it. Our goal was not just to repeat the climb but to do it in one push. We had planned on ten days, did it in seven, and it was one of the best weeks of my life.
And a few thoughts about Warren. It should be (more)remembered that when RR and crew topped out on Half Dome, Warren was there with sandwiches and water. And that when Warren ran into really bad weather on the South Face of Half Dome, Royal went down on a really thin cable and got Warren and partner off the wall. It is hard to explain, but these two big wall pioneers, and Pratt as well, were very complex personalities, so that whatever inconsistencies in there attitudes and behavior to each other were to be expected. What they had in common was that they wanted to leave a mark in climbing, which was a little odd given that in that time only a few climbers were impressed, certainly not the general public.
By the time of the WOTEML, things had changed, and Warren always was more on the lookout for ways to make a little money from his climbs, usually through selling photos to magazines, but also early on he could be seen on billboards promoting a beer whose name I have forgotten. Some could say that as a working man he didn't have a lot of money, but none of us did then, and some of us didn't even have a car let alone a Jag. Warren wasn't an especially good free climber, and he didn't seem interested in repeating some of the classic routes. I don't think he ever did Sentinel, for instance. Better to just figure out what seemed most improbable if not impossible and have at it until he somehow got up. Driven.
Warren drank a lot as has been amply pointed out, but most of us, Frost excepted, did too. The wider world didn't seem made for us, and, frankly, drinking made us feel a lot better. Until it didn't.
My last memory of Warren was at, of all places, the AAC where he gave his El Cap slide show--very funny, very Warren, although he seemed manic and driven to get to the bar. One thing about booze, with both Royal and Warren, and me and Pratt, too, and most people, it makes it easier, at least for a while, to be comfortable with other people, to even display conviviality and, possibly, wit, to tell epic tales deep into the ember-strewn night.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 21, 2015 - 05:44pm PT
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Let's not forget that he had times when he felt redeemed. I think it was December 8, 1984 in Oakland.
Royal and Yvon shepherded him allowing him only 3 drinks in order to loosen up, and he more than nailed it, he knocked it out of the park.
He had the crowd alternately doubled over in laughter or on their feet applauding.
My favorite was when he said, "many of the valley locals were unhappy with our climb," and then showed a slide Galen had given him of more than a dozen Balti porters on strike and scowling bitterly at his camera.
EDIT
looks like I cross posted with oldguy and may have explained the reason that AAC annual meeting show was such a hit.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 21, 2015 - 05:50pm PT
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Humor and wit win out and Warren was a master.
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:06pm PT
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Thanks "oldguy".
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 21, 2015 - 07:34pm PT
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hey there say, oldguy...
i enjoyed your post... thank you very much...
said very nice...
also, as to this quote of yours:
One thing about booze, with both Royal and Warren, and me and Pratt, too, and most people, it makes it easier, at least for a while, to be comfortable with other people, to even display conviviality and, possibly, wit, to tell epic tales deep into the ember-strewn night.
i HAVE seen this, as to a few folks that i know, that deal with the public, at special times... times that they love, but, are a bit hard, as to the very reason that you mentioned...
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Oct 21, 2015 - 09:16pm PT
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"Oldguy" is well, oldguy, one of he most talented and least known of that small, small group of Valley pioneers. We are blessed to have Joe and Wayne come up on ST and enlighten we peons.
It was a Golden Era for those few pioneers who often times had little concept of the future and the impact of their endeavors.
El Cap in a day? You friggin crazy?
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 21, 2015 - 10:29pm PT
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hey there say, guido... say, thanks for filling me in, on that...
thank you so much... you know me, i don't have a clue, as to all these great guys...
but i am learning, just a bit, :)
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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Oct 22, 2015 - 12:01pm PT
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What a world...
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Oct 22, 2015 - 12:05pm PT
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Hi Neebeeeee-Oldguy is Joe Fitchen or "Big Joe."
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Oct 22, 2015 - 04:19pm PT
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So very well said "OldGuy"! One of my all time climbing hero's, as is all of you from that Golden Era......I still always try to stop by the "Harding Museum" when I'm up the Eastside, such a comforting place to be in alone to just sit and soak it all in!
[photoid=129879]
Peace
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Oct 22, 2015 - 05:43pm PT
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Harding could be sensitive when the occasion called for it.
Just after I got on with the NPS - would have been the summer of ’60, I think - a young fellow went off the end of his rappel and fell down the Arrow Chimney. I got Harding to accompany me. We went up to the base and he wasn’t there. We finally located the body with a spotting scope from the falls trail. He was on chockstones maybe 800 feet down.
I took Harding and went to the Chief Ranger, who was Elmer Fladmark at the time - a good old guy. Told him we could recover the body. We were really keen to help. But the Superintendent at that time, John Preston, said absolutely not, it was too dangerous.
He was, technically, correct - in government practice you don’t risk a life to retrieve a body. But we were furious - I guess we felt it was an insult to our competence. That was compounded when the Supt. called us into his office and asked us to explain to the parents that recovery was too dangerous. I almost strangled on that, but I had just started what I thought would be a career in NPS so I chickened out and mumbled something which was apparently acceptable. At this point you might have expected Harding to contradict the man, as I’m sure he wanted to, but he was sensitive to the parents and to my touchy position, and went along with it, and the parents accepted the verdict.
I was so angry I almost quit right there, but it took another ten years before another non-rescue finally disillusioned me for good. That’s another story.
A year later Warren and I went up to the base, collected whatever fragments had come down, buried them under a talus boulder and put a little plaque on it for the family. Pretty fine headstone, the Arrow.
While we were up at the base it was terribly hot and we ran out of water. There was just a warm trickle coming down the chimney, which we drank gratefully. I couldn’t help it - I just had to say it - “This vintage has a lot of body to it, don’t you think?”
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:34pm PT
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Interesting story Wayne. That was Irving Smith from Fresno who was going for the youngest person to climb the Arrow Tip spot in history. We certainly remember the Roper escapade concerning the body and I believe you read Steve the riot act over that?
On another note I climbed the Tip that summer to become the youngest which was a big thing back then. Most of the Valley climbs has so few ascents that it was common knowledge who and when a route was climbed.
On a side note Harding use to power walk from Camp 4 to the rim and back for "exercise."
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 22, 2015 - 06:41pm PT
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One of my favorite threads of all time. Thank you so much for sharing the stories. Harding, like many other pioneers, is an inspiration. Too bad I had no chance to meet him and talk about climbing in person. Seems like he had a good attitude towards it. Busting his ass and not taking people too seriously.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Oct 22, 2015 - 07:13pm PT
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Guido - another time Harding wanted to set a record speed going up Half Dome by trail. He'd heard about a magic fuel - orange juice mixed with honey. He knocked it back and took off, and got sick as a dog and slunk back. Don't think he ever tried for that sort of record again.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 22, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
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hey there say, guido! say, thank you again, and most kindly, :)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 23, 2015 - 09:25am PT
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Layton told me that when he did the Lost Arrow Chimney (in '63 I think) that he kept finding little bones, mostly digits, in the crack from that guy.
Whole new meaning to finger crack,...
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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Oct 23, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
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This thread is spectacular! Thanks to all who have made it so wonderful to enjoy.
My only in person viewing of Harding was at a small slide show I attended with Dolomite in McGee Creek in the mid 90's I'd say.
The event was lightly attended and Harding was funny and drunk and I remember feeling lucky to be in his midst, which was surely winding down.
His wit was evident even as alcohol was dulling it. He must have been hilarious back in his sharper days...what a character!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Oct 23, 2015 - 12:57pm PT
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I think I have told this Warren story before on ST in another thread. Here goes:
In the late 1970's I was in the Mountain Room Bar having a late night drink with a bunch of friends. Warren comes by our table slightly(!?!?) inebriated on red wine. My friends introduce me to Warren as one of the Valley 'young guns' and that gets him all agitated. He pulls me up from my chair and starts mumbling something like, "the East Face of Washington Column doesn't go free. I want to see you do it!"
So, here we are in the Mountain Room Bar with Warren trying to drag me out of the place so I can go show him that his route goes free. He is sloshing red wine out of his glass all over my white painter's pants (standard Valley hardman attire of the day) and just will not relent. Finally, my friends subdue Warren and I escape his clutches.
Pretty funny and no harm done.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
Of THIS World (Planet Earth)
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Oct 25, 2015 - 06:25pm PT
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It's an honor to have met and partied with The Man.
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oldguy
climber
Bronx, NY
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Oct 26, 2015 - 09:47am PT
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One more previously unreported story. Sometime in the mid-60's, a Berkeley climber, Al Macdonald, who was on Harding's bolt-up of the Leaning Tower,invited his neighbor, a comely young secretary, to join him on a trip to the Valley. They arrived Friday night, and the next day Al went off with someone else to climb. He thought his neighbor would just like to see Yosemite, maybe do a little hike. On Sunday afternoon, a bunch of us, including Harding, were sitting around in Camp 4 when Al told the lass that it was time to drive back to Berkeley. And she said, "No, I'm staying here with Warren." And she did. The free life really appealed to her as it has with many young visitors to Camp 4. She and Warren were together for a year or two as I remember, but it didn't work out. Then Beryl came along.
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Zay
climber
Monterey, Ca
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Apr 30, 2019 - 01:44pm PT
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bump
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Apr 30, 2019 - 02:44pm PT
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how long would he have lasted on the sopor-tazo ?
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Aeriq
Sport climber
100-year Visitor
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“This vintage has a lot of body to it, don’t you think?”
Ho Man...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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"Nobody has ever demonstrated to me that there are objective values."
The man.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Too me it’s sad that a man with such physical gifts succumbed to alcohol. A lot of people here love to talk about a person’s partying exploits as if they were something that should be viewed with respect if not awe.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ Not me, Jim. I had lengthy conversations with him about scaling back and even getting help. But getting help admits weakness, and Warren was one "tough cookie."
He was a brilliant, tough, and visionary man. His drinking was the one glitch. Ultimately I have endless respect for the "total package" that he was.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Yes, he was an oversized personality who earned our respect. The partying in that era was a manifestation of the macho image climbing had. The scene in Wales in the 70’s was one of relentless partying. You were measured by not how well you climbed but by how well you climbed after a night in the pub.
Unfortunately, that attitude shortened many lives.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ Indeed.
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
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I haven't finished this thread yet but after reading Park Rats comments from 2012 all I can say is what a dik move that was by Robbins to start chopping WOEML. If he was, as the OP respectively paraphrased, "was having a hard time placing their act and the actual experience into what he thought or hoped would be its final perspective" he should have gone back up and back up and fixed the damage he did.
The attempt to undo a man's greatest accomplishment after he returned from a serious injury and in the midst of kicking a dependency is a fukked up thing to do and ironically lacks any notion of being "ethical" let alone decent. No wonder they were labeled as the Valley Christians. Very fitting.
Im 32 and this is all purely a total outsider perspective, but wow.
Edit to edit; What a great thread. These threads are the reason I started reading this forum.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Interesting how the AAC and AC changed over the years. Initially very snooty and professional and upper class, now very egalitarian and open.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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When I joined the AAC I needed two members to vouch for me. You’re right John it was a bit snooty and exclusive. Now, all climbers and lovers of the mountains are welcome and there are 23,000 plus members and growing.
There are also new programs for younger, active climbers like the ”Craggin Classic” and “Live
Your Dreams” grants.
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Trump
climber
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We imagine that we understand the measure of another person’s life - what gives it value, how long it should have been, what about it should be respected or disrespected.
And even more than that, we imagine that we know what that other person SHOULD have respected and what SHOULD have given value to their life. How sad that they didn’t live their life the way we think would have given them the most value.
And even more than that, we imagine that other people should have the same perspective that we do on some other person’s life - that they should respect and value or disrespect and devalue the aspects of that other person’s life in the same way we do.
I’m glad Warren did it his way. I’m glad he called bullshit on all that bullsh#t, and that he just didn’t care about what bullshit people thought of him and his way of living his life.
But y’all? Do it your way, whatever way that is.
There’s a certain level of self-centered arrogance in human thinking that seems unavoidable, and if thinking that way helps us feel good about ourselves compared to other people, good about the rightness and righteousness of our way of seeing things or our way of doing things, more power to us. Seems to be working so far.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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The Alpine Club in London even has a Yank for a president! That’s so wrong.
I’m getting there a day late for Adele Long’s presentation of:
My journey up (and down) Zanskar's Mulung Tokpo
(sounds like something I contracted over there)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Some self centeredness seems essential and natural. How could we survive physically and psychically without it? Taking care of yourself should be everyone’s first priority....doing so without taking others into account is when problems arise.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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In 1974 The Alpine Club decided to allow females to join. (The extent to which homosexuals, bisexuals, etc etc were already members being an interesting side question. It did lead to the demise of The Ladies’ Alpine Club.) Anyway, the redoubtable HW Tilman resigned as a member. Imagine, women allowed to join HIS club! And, like Harding, true to character. They subtly retaliated by making him an honourary member.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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"By the time you are yourself expert you will have acquired a large circle of devoted enemies. Every weapon that falsehood, scandal, and misrepresentation can forge will be raised against you. The 'Authorities' will refuse to recognize any new climbs you have made; and the Alpine Club will have none of you. All this will amuse you."
Oscar Eckenstein, ca1900
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Weenis
Trad climber
Tel Aviv
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I was fifteen when I found a copy of Warren's book "Downward Bound" in my high school's library. It was the only climbing book and I read it through and through. I had barely started climbing but now knew that this was going to be a worthwhile pursuit.
I met Warren in 1980 and he was looking for a wide crack climber for some FA. I told him that it was his book that had inspired me and he just busted up laughing. It was an honest full joy that he expressed.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ He inspired many of us that way. Thanks for sharing that. It very much resonates with me.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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^^^ You mean Oscar Eckenstein of course. I agree.
;>)
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