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| Messages 1 - 28 of total 28 in this topic |
adam d
climber
closer to waves than rock
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hell yeah...thanks for sharing.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Mr. E ....
Really enjoyed your story and the details of all your and Skip's great climbing exploits. Well written :D (Please say howdy to "the Doctor" for me)
I think of what Dave Yerian spoke about at John's memorial ..... and then I think it would be cool if you said howdy to P. Even fo' real thanked him for being your motivation. Love and Community ....example and showing the way. That's just my take, and I'm not a climber,,,,,yet. Peace, lynne
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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nice, Erik!
Cogitating....
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Hi Erik
The whole business of slagging other people's routes is really weird. Sure, when you did that dumb-ass "bolting across an existing trad line" at Smith you probably deserved to get smacked, but that's not what you're talking about, is it? It's the other. The petty sh#t for which there's no reasonable explanation.
I've been through it. Thankfully just once, but since it originated with someone I had thought of as a friend, it was pretty confusing. All I can think is that maybe it originates partly in jealousy, and partly in some sort of childish "This is my crag" mentality.
In the end, though, if you know you've done a good job on a good line, then standing proud and ignoring the sh#t-flinging isn't too hard. In fact, as the years go by and your routes get more and more traffic, it's pretty easy to look back and laugh at those who couldn't stand to see someone doing what they knew in their hearts they didn't have the vision, courage, and strength to do themselves.
Go give Skip a big hug, crack a beer, and stop worrying. Life is too short to let small-minded dickheads spoil your memories.
D
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MisterE
Trad climber
Canoga Bark! CA
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Waiting for the Constine/Medusa slag
You said it would be self-promoting - do you find it so?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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This is in no way a direct response to MisterE, just some ramblings along a tangential line....
I wished I owned the rock, but I don't. I learn this over time, even if I don't fully understand the importance of it yet still.
However, one thing comes back to me as somewhat egotistical:
I want the *opportunity* to try and encourage someone to do something in the best style possible.
That's not a statement of top down or ground up. But within a given style, I want the opportunity to encourage someone to do it the best way possible.
Lately I'm on a ground up kick. So I want the opportunity to try and get them to try the style I am using.
It's probably a conceit that all educators have, to want to show others how you do your thang.
But a lot of times this gets translated into "you think your sh#t doesn't stink" perspectives, with their own camps and blinders and propaganda. It may be just in how we tell our stories. But bottom line you can't get bogged down in other people's crap. Do your best, at the time, in a genuine way and everything else can be worked out.
Not sure if I'm still with the thread, probably just rambling, but truly I don't own the rock but I would love to be a part of certain climbs. And no I don't have the skill or the strength to send before others do, so I climb what I climb and that's that. Yet I still long to hold onto the possibilities of unknown terrain and for unknown terrain for future generations.
For instance, I wrote the following about an area...
"This area is visible but not well known. This particular web page is NOT a public URL. If you need a belay, please don't hesitate to call me. xxxxxxxxx I'd love to be a part of any lines that go up on these formations or at least get pics of you sending. It is my favorite place along the entire SPH Hwy.
It should be noted that 98% of the routes have gone in ground up on this side of the reservoir. The rock lends itself to that style; with its moderate angle it stands in distinction to xxxxxxxx. Comparing the area to xxxxxxx reflects a symmetrical balance of styles that can and do co-exist along the SPH. Ground up ascents welcomed whole heartedly. Viva La Adventure!"
Then, yet I've also put in top down routes (very few) where I just couldn't justify for the difficulty of the free climbing involved the technical aid that would be needed to put in proper protection for those that would follow later. The aid tension points necessary would have destroyed the free climbing moves. It would have been equivalent to chipping and brought the route down in difficulty. Instead I bolted top down where needed and worked hard on the technical moves and finally sent the redpoint one day.
The net result is that I absolutely want the *opportunity* to encourage and educate folks to do the best possible style they can at the time in the most genuine sense possible. If they have doubt, then re-evaluate before starting in.
So in top down style, I really really thing it is important to work out the moves and the placements. Often the clips are haphazardly done. They aren't placed where the leader needs them, etc. Top down is f*#king hard and a lot of work to do it right.
where the hell was I going with this?
I guess just this: don't let the buggers get you down, and do the best work you can do.
True for many things in life, not just climbing.
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MisterE
Trad climber
Canoga Bark! CA
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Mungie: Cool, Bro.
Am I crazy? I sometimes feel like I am - cuz it just doesn't make any sense...
I guess the proprietary thing just doesn't gel - opportunity is always there.
One only creates boundaries, the other new things.
Burning Heart
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Hardly Visible
Social climber
Llatikcuf WA
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Nice stuff Eric! Did you know that Snuffy Smith got so popular the state park erected a big iron stairway leading to the base of it.
And oh yeah I think it's a pretty select group I belong to "people who have chopped sport routes at Smith". Sure hope I don't get mugged next time I go there.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Seen it from both sides.
'We' did a lot of probably first ascents back in the day in Vedauwoo. Who can tell? But I think in the world of free solo .10c OW/fist 30 foot meanderings, many of them had not been done prior to when we were there, circa 1980. There were over a hundred of these.
I always thought of it as a zen-like catch and release kind of deal; I had my time there, it's waiting for yours; didn't we share some cool sh#t?
But at some point them upstarts, Todd and Paul et al, started laying claim to some of these and naming them. Then, I was less comfortable with the whole deal. Notarizing them would have spoiled the deal, but if done right, could have left them in the public domain. Should I have done that? I would never have presumed to do so...
Also I was young and ALWAYS right!
Later, on the other side.... Scary Larry and I did a Route in Sedona, ('86?) on the Sandstone part of Schnebly hill. There was some fixed tat, but it had many overhangs, and I assumed it had never gone free. I Called it Crazy Gugenheim .11c. Total epic, we rapped off the back, dropped the drill holder, had to drill a rap anchor from a free hanging rope by holding the bit in my fingers; full value!
I was later called to task in an internationally circulated mag for being part of a "lame modern party" who overates things, and it was only only 5.10.
Wonder if those were the only ascents?
The wheel keeps turning.....
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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i chatted up this dirtbag in taco bell long ago cause he knew about ropes and shite and i was scramblin all over them thar hills of course unsecured and reckless with gladness in my heart.
so he invites me out to try top roping.
he hikes around to set up the rig and i solo up the crag to meet him. unsecured and reckless.
years later as we are racing the forthcoming night on that endless ridge that caps Dark Star (unsecured and reckless), we sit down to rest and chew on lichen and i recall gladness in my heart. again.
every fukin time i go climbing my heart swells with gladness. every time.
the (not quite) end.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nice summation of your feelings Mr. E. I think that , for the most part, we put up new routes for ourselves with the hope that others will enjoy our creations and think the better of us for having done them.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Nice well-written responses everyone.
I'd love to hear more of other peoples stories.
"Zen catch and release"... I like that.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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We all have different mota vations in our climbing and in our lives.
Keep doing your thing Mr.E.
Sometimes hindsight is 20/20,
sometimes our vision of the future is foggy.
sometimes the porridge is juuuuust right.
What does that mean? I dunno, I'm baked.
But I do know you're a good dude. That's good enuf for me.
Haters wanna hate, lovers wanna love.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mr. E..... and skip.
If you wish to go bolt up stuff at Echo, please do so.
But please take all the live plants that your "cleaning" kills, home with you.
I have several of these "wall flowers" growing in pots in my backyard, they are beautiful and eazy to care for.
I can give you some for your home if you wish.
Anybody doing FA's there needs to know about "GLUE". It's a necessary component in a FA-ers bag if you wish your climbs to last at ECHO.
I won't speak for PYRO, but I think he feels about the same as I do regarding ECHO,and new root developments.... enuf is enuf.
Just before you came on the scene some other Male/Female team started putting "IN" climbs (not "up" but in). Almost all of these climbs are worthless squeze jobs with the bolts all wrong, and dangerous.
But, thats just my opinion.
Now the climb you folks did is good and follows a good line, it was an overlooked diamond in the rough. But "Gentle Ben" told me "You stole it" after he "cleaned it". .......
My first thought was: "Wow a real bolt war, FA war, at ECHO.... It's been 15 years."
So judging by your OP, you have been through this before, nothing has changed.
So if you think your climb is good, than it is.
GK
P.S. To answer your Question. I put UP climbs for ME, I love the feeling you can get when you have an adventure with your friends. It's not EGO driven because almost all of these climbs are done way out of the way where there are no guidebooks or guidebook writers,to turn them into.
I do not understand your reference to "Climbers Community". I don't see it as (doing new roots) something I do for "others".
But that's just me, maybe someday, you will say "Hello" and bust out some beer or??? (no brown please, green only :>) )
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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I would say if you are out there getting it done and following your heart, more power to you and you are luckier then most to be able to do what is rewarding and gives you joy. Thanks for the great life story. Wish I had done more first ascents, but pretty much all I do is buy guidebooks and climb other peoples routes. and love it! Here's a shout out of appreciation to all the route setters out there.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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But "Gentle Ben" told me "You stole it" after he "cleaned it".
Given that E said it took him and Skip two days of cleaning to get it in climbable shape, it sounds like not much cleaning had been done previously. Course I wasn't there, so...
But this does remind me of a day many years ago when Dave Jones and I, having heard that someone had done a re-cleaning job on the Squamish route "St. Vitus Dance", decided to jump on it. It was a fine four-pitch climb, but was always dirty and full of roots and shrubs. So up we went, and found that the so-called cleaning effort was pitiful. We could see that someone had done a bit of scraping and pruning here and there, but had stopped way short of the effort required to do the job right.
When we got down we went to the bar, where we ran into our friend Robin Barley. Prolific new-router, who in fact had done the first ascent of St. Vitus. He asked what we'd been doing, and we told him we'd climbed his old route cuz we'd heard someone had cleaned it, but whoever it was had done such a shitty job that they should be ashamed.
Turned out it was him who'd done the re-cleaning, and he was kinda pissed about our comments. At least for a few minutes. Then we all had a laugh and another beer.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Goast.... good one.
Echo is dirty as sh#t.
I don't know what the truth is about who "stole what" from who...
But now when you go down there, the folks have started using "RED RUNNERS"
on the first bolts.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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A follow up to the story.
I have contacted "Gentle Ben" and his partner. An olive branch was extended and accepted. Friendly e-mails have been exchanged. All is peaceful at Echo Cliffs again.
Evidently some cleaning had been done previously...primarily to clear lots of crap from the base of the climb and, due to extenuating circumstances, they had not worked on it for some time, so any face-work done had become in-obvious with time. The face itself had so much loose debris Erik and I genuinely thought there was no way anyone could have TR'd it without knocking certain things off, and there was no chalk or fixed protection to clue us in- hence the misunderstanding.
We are all in contact now and there will be no further inadvertent route-sniping.
I'll add- good advice Guy. The plants we cleared were scrubby and probably wouldn't transplant, but those white succulent things most certainly would. I'll take it home or transplant if we ever clean one.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Skip....good thing to work out differences.
I find the "Wall-Flowers" lying all over the place. Some climbers are not to careful when climbing or walking around.
If you find one of these, even if it's dried up and brown, you can get em growing again by sticking then into water for a few days. After that just put the broken roots in some dirt and vola.... they will come back to life.
They are perfect plants for climbers to have, because if you forget to water them, when your on that long road trip, they grow even better.
And if you guys need some hangers, lets talk, I have some that would love to be put to use in a good way.
GK
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Good to know they will resurrect. They are really quite beautiful certain times of the year.
We're taking a hiatus from new routes to tackle a fix-it list of spinners and missing hard wear on existing routes. Our local safety inspector seems to have missed a few ;)
Some hangar donations would actually be really welcome.
Skip
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Red tagging a route? trippy, very 80s retro.
glad things are copacetic
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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JTM we'll be watching to see what kind of custodian you are..
I once heard a famous saying from a special Taoist monk...
"Don't talk about it, show it to me"
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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sorry E and Skip sent you an apology letter.
Guyman was right my heart is in the right place but my english is a second language!
Hope you can forgive me.
Hope you don't hate me.
echo is a great place to climb.
I love good quality routes.
Hope the grid bolting would stop somehow.
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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You're right Mike. I was irritated for a second, all that spray and I couldn't find my umbrella!
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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What this really is, is a question of ethics and responsibility. Mike you misunderstand me. My problem is not with the projects that Mr. E and JTM have been working on..
The problem is the defensive and sarcastic attacks when asked some simple questions.
When rebolting, one must be willing to explain what techniques, what bolts etc were used, because other peoples lives hang on their work. No need to be offended..
When setting routes, ask the locals, if something looks like it is being worked on, which it very obviously did in this case, i've seen it first hand, then ask around. It was clear to me that someone was working on the grotto rock.It was obvious.
When setting routes, think about whether or not it is really necessary, what are the ramifications? Is this area already over bolted and so on and so forth. Will the area be around for climbers if climbers keep altering the natural environment? Might end up with a crackdown and a closed area.
Look out for the environment around you, and talk to the locals, they've been around a while, and most locals are super stoked to give you details, its not about who owns the next wave..
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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I bumped this because it is good food for discussion...
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dec 16, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
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Glad you got your apology Erik. But you didn't deserve that kind of sh#t. No one does....including Anastasia.
Best to you!
"And now for the update:
Skip and I recently found a “new” line at Echo Cliffs – it was like a blessing. It reminded me of my ability to see a line, however inobvious – just like Smith BITD. I t called to me, a beacon of remote Sedona First Ascents . A 45-minute drive, then a 45-minute hike: remote by Sedona standards with an easier approach. We placed two bolts, 3 fixed pins, and cleaned for 2 days just to make it climbable. I was pretty much burnt out by the end, having spent more time on this route than any in all of the other three states I have done FA’s. turns out other people had their eye on it – big surprise. Then the dissing starts: I get phone calls, e-mails, telling me I am stealing, we get the Valley-Go-Home treatment, as well as interrogation about my qualifications by so-called ASCA representatives when I replace some bad bolts in Malibu. Why weren’t they replaced earlier, Mr. ASCA Representative? And the other bad bolts too?
It’s all frickin’ ego – if you let that go, it all becomes for the community. Skip and I are proud of our new route, Bunnymen, at Echo. It was a fun line to put up with the woman I love, and a benefit to the community at large. It’s been made to seem less; to seem like stealing, too short to warrant attention, passed-up as-crappy, and a squeeze-job. It is none of those.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/North_America/United_States/California/Los_Angeles_County/Echo_Cliffs/Grotto_The_/Bunnymen_102207.html
The upshot? I have experience in this petty proprietary pissing - many years. If you want to make a route yours, put a fixed pin, or bolt, or show some kind of cleaning.
But people gotta slag, I am so over it – 13 years over it.
I will mention the name of Pyro, but only because his petty little intrusions drove me to write this – I will walk right by you the next time we meet. But still I say:
“Thanks for the inspiration.”"
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Bill Coe please be nice and stay out of our story.
this story is all finished!
No attacks needed to be involved just more of a warning because Rangers do patrol. Be nice to the outdoors MisterE , Skip and Ben Chapman.
your outrages bolting is going to get the park closed.
see you out there! and climb hard Bro!
peace!
RM
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| Messages 1 - 28 of total 28 in this topic |
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