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Fluoride
Trad climber
on a rock or mountain out west
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 24, 2006 - 08:44pm PT
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Just saw a story on the news about this...worth some thought. Given, successful rescues up there at that altitude are extraordinarily rare and difficult. Sad that up to 40 other climbers passed by the guy as he lay there dying. Not sure what the answer or lessons in this incident is. Just worth some thought.
WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) - The celebrated Mount Everest climber Sir Edmund Hillary says human life matters more than "just getting to the top of a mountain."
Hillary tells the New Zealand Press Association he was shocked to hear that dozens of climbers left a British mountaineer to die while making their own attempts on the world's tallest peak.
David Sharp apparently died from lack of oxygen while descending from the summit during a solo climb last week. More than 40 climbers may have seen him as he lay dying. Climbers admit trying to radio for help or even stopping to share oxygen. But each one then continued on to the summit.
Hillary and Sherpa Tenzing Norgay became the first mountaineers to reach Everest's summit in 1953.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
on a rock or mountain out west
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Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2006 - 08:49pm PT
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hey trad - let's just say one is related to Jerry Mathers (the Beav)!
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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May 24, 2006 - 09:45pm PT
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Dig deeper. Big Ed didn't have all the facts before commenting. No controversy once you find out what the deal was. Typical uniformed media hysteria.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
on a rock or mountain out west
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Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2006 - 09:57pm PT
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I think the highest successful rescue off Everest was at 8400M so rescue was somewhat improbable or highly unlikely. But for Sir Edmund to say what he said made me go "hmmmm..." That guy definitely can walk the walk. Wonder if he really would have stopped his summit attempt and tried to get him down back in his day. I think he would have. There was a different mentality on the 8000M peaks back then and I think that's what his commentary reflected.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 24, 2006 - 10:25pm PT
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ANF, what's the rest of the story?
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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May 24, 2006 - 11:58pm PT
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So, I gather some of you believe everything that you read in the newspapers...
Before, making a judgement please find out the details of what happened rather than jumping to a conclusion. The only people that know what happened are the one's who where there, and they are going to get their chance to stay something over the next few days. The headlines on http://www.stuff.co.nz will be a good place to follow those developments if you are interested.
I've known Mark for years and the expedition leader, Russell Brice even longer. I'm sure there is a lot more to the story than is being reported.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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May 25, 2006 - 02:36am PT
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I don't think this is such a slam dunk decision as everybody here seems to feel.
What if you paid a guide service $65K, took a 6-month leave from your job to train and attempt Everest(which may potentially affect your future with your company) and begged and pleaded with your wife and kids for the opportunity. Would it really be that easy to give up your summit attempt to help somebody who may or may not have even been qualified to be on the mountain and is supposedly trying to climb the mountain solo.
Certainly, if the dying climber was the member of a team of other climbers (guided or otherwise) it is the responsibility of his teammates to give up their chances to help him. But, I think it is a very difficult decision for a paying client who has sacrificed a lot of $$$, time, etc. to just give up their attempt to help someone else whom they do not know.
I would certainly have a huge amount of respect for someone who gave up all their training and sacrifices to help another climber off Everest but, I just dont' think this, especially for paying clients (and their guides who paid the clients paid to get them there) is such an easy decision. This is not a sport crag or even a high peak in the Sierras. This is the Everest and the Himalayas and it takes a lot of sacrifices to be in the position to climb those mountains.
Let me repeat. I am not saying what is right and wrong. I am just saying that giving up your summit attempt to help someone else on Everest who is not a teammate is a very, very difficult decision. It is not a slam dunk.
Bruce
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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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May 25, 2006 - 02:47am PT
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How many people out there are physically capable of rescuing another human being at 8800m? There's Anatoli, but he was a mutant. The guides up there are obligated to ensure the safe return of their own clients, first and foremost. Rob Hall stayed with his client and paid for it with his life
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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May 25, 2006 - 06:43am PT
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All I can say is, this was a very sad situation (understatement).
Bruce, what you write makes sense, but even if I had paid all that money etc, could I live with my conscious knowing that perhaps there was something I could have done to help save this chap.
To be honest, this is one of those situations where you don’t know what you would have done until faced with such a decision. At least, that is how I feel.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 25, 2006 - 09:06am PT
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Bhilden> "But, I think it is a very difficult decision for a paying client who has sacrificed a lot of $$$, time, etc. to just give up their attempt to help someone else whom they do not know."
A paying client is a member of a team and may not be qualified to know if and how they can help, and they just can't bow out of a team ascent to join a rescue that they might just become a further liability on. A guide would likely refuse to let them endanger themselves and their team further by leaving the ascent.
As for the guides, 8000 meter peaks don't have much wiggle room and it would possibly be irresponsible for a guide to endanger his clients by bailing on their ascent to rescue a guy who may or may not make it anyway and took the very considerable risk of soloing Everest. It would certainly not be obvious that all the guy needed was more O2 to make it down ok. He could have had any number of serious high altitude illnesses.
In fact, the act of soloing Everest, if there was any expectation of help from anyone, is an incredibly selfish act that endangers everyone up there. If you go solo, you gotta take your chances and any help is a bonus, not a moral obligation for others to risk their life for you.
Best to judge not. We are all letting folks die around the world constantly by enjoying our lifestyle while folks in the Third World and even at home die for lack of a few bucks for medicine, clean water, and whatnot. Keeping them out of our path doesn't change that as much as we'd like to think.
Peace
Karl
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 25, 2006 - 09:50am PT
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Would you give up your expensive summit attempt to try to save a life that might not be savable?
Yes.
A life is more valuable that my expensive summit attempt.
I have actually dropped plans and diverted to minor rescue before, because an injured stranger needed help, and it never occurred to me to do anything else. Some things are more important than my climbing trip or day or whatever.
I have to try, if I have any humanity, when the opportunity is right there in front of me.
I would be MUCH happier with saving a life than with a meaninless summit of a stupid mountain, that does not give a damn if I get to it's top or not.
This is one of those things that would be better to try and fail at, that not to try at all.
I could not live with myself if I walked off and let someone die when I might have been able to save them.
Now, when the guy taking all the flack found the dying guy, the dying guy was almost frozen solid, and the would be rescuer was told to give it up by people who were supposed to know. It's hard to blame the finder for much.
Apparently the best judgement of those who do know was that there was no hope when they found the dying guy. However, people do sometimes live through such things, as the guy left for dead in 96 will tell you.
IT is a sad situation for all.
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pyro
Trad climber
Ventura
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May 25, 2006 - 10:25am PT
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I wouldn't want to die climbing. I would rather die climbing into bed with my wife when at the age of 99.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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May 25, 2006 - 10:33am PT
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Soloing or climbing is a selfish activity.
But I think that continuing an ascent without providing assistance, and continuing a descent without providing assistance are morally different.
A party descending may rightly put its own survival ahead of a victim's. (just my opinion).
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chiranjeeb
climber
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May 25, 2006 - 11:38am PT
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Although it is a little paradoxical, it might be that having too many teams on Everest might have reduced his chances. If there was only a single team on the summit that day, they would have surely tried for a rescue. But with so many teams going up and down, we would not feel equally guilty to leave him ----we can always rationalize that somebody else will probably help him.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 25, 2006 - 12:02pm PT
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I don't know if there is anyone to blame or not, or what they did to help or not.
I do know that I doubt the crowd going up and down Everest that day is unlikely to be any different morally than the folks posting on this thread. We're probably the same. They were there. We weren't.
So let's find out some details and fact and debate those rather than chime in with
"Me good, would have done good. They bad, Bad bad"
Peace
Karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 25, 2006 - 12:14pm PT
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300m below the summit if a person is unable to move at all there is nothing that can be done by others. Tragic, yes, but there is absolutely NO WAY to conduct an evacuation of an inert body (without perhaps that super helicopter that went to the summit).
I am a trained guide (albeit rock and not mountaineering) and have serious issues with the concept of taking clients someplace that is way over their heads. The best guides serve as a facilitator for aspiring climbers to safely tread in increments beyond their personal envelope and expand their abilities, but the delusion that the summit of Everest is a justifiably marketable commodity has already cost me a good friend who found out only too late.
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Mick K
climber
Northern Sierra
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May 25, 2006 - 12:22pm PT
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"What if you paid a guide service $65K, took a 6-month leave from your job to train and attempt Everest(which may potentially affect your future with your company) and begged and pleaded with your wife and kids for the opportunity."
Without a second thought I would do what ever I could to get the guy down even if it put myself at risk.
I can't belive "climbers" would even have to think about it.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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May 25, 2006 - 12:25pm PT
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Also, paradoxically, perhaps the only way to have effected a rescue, was if the sheer number of teams available had all cooperated.
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