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cybele
Ice climber
finally, west of the Mississippi
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 13, 2005 - 01:48pm PT
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Hi. I was told by a frequent wall climber that he's encountered a few newly replaced rivets that the RP hanger does not fit over by at least a 1/16. Bomber bolts, but he says will only take his swedged hangers. I am looking into getting a few different types of the Australian bolt plates for myself and friends, and just wonder what that larger rivet size is. 7/16? 1/2? or a metric size? (Currently, I know of the PFH and SRT hanger for 10 mm, while RPs are for 3/8, which equals 9.52mm.) Eric Sloan, are you on here, do you know about the new size?
Thanks anyone if you have any info.
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Shack
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 13, 2005 - 02:03pm PT
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Where can I get some of those RP hangers?
The only rivet hangers I can seem to find are the Pika.
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cybele
Ice climber
finally, west of the Mississippi
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2005 - 09:36pm PT
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I think they are only sold in Australia.
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Shack
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 13, 2005 - 09:47pm PT
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Any places on the net that I can't seem to find?
Links appreciated.
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KarlP
Social climber
Queensland, NorCal, Iceland
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Jul 14, 2005 - 09:56am PT
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pfh, amc, smc, adrenaline, rp, all make bolt plates. The only people who use the RP ones are people that read in a book somewhere that they needed them. ;)
otherwise you use whatever the shop had. In your choice of angle or straight. Some people claim to not be able to fit certain brands over certain bolts, but they normally just didn't try hard enough.
If you're really desparate for some, get on qurank.com and ask someone there to send you some. Last I saw, they were running about $5US a throw. I carried all of mine to the states and they sat in a box for the whole 4 years. The one or two times I could have used them, I used the cable on my nuts instead.
If you only need these for aiding, and just want the extra reach offered by a hanger, instead of being a few inches lower on a wire, then just make your own. Aussies buy nice shiny ones because we use them for all our bolts. I never saw an anchor bolt, or freeclimbing protection bolt that was a carrot in the states. (though I'm sure some exist, and I saw many that I wish had been carrots, instead of the shrivelled up little bits of rust they actually were)
Cheers,
Karl P
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Shack
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 14, 2005 - 11:57am PT
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Thanks for insulting my intelligence.
I'm well aware of the other hangers available.
I don't buy anything because "some book" said I need them.
I would buy something because people who's opinion I respect, unlike yourself,(I don't know you), recommend them as being better than those other brands.
I've got plenty of cable hangers thanks.
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KarlP
Social climber
Queensland, NorCal, Iceland
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Jul 15, 2005 - 06:23am PT
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And I don't know you. But the only people who seem to want RP brand hangers seem to be people that read it in a book.
They're bigger, heavier, and fit a narrower range of bolt/head sizes.
The PFH ones fall somewhere in the middle, though I find their straight version to be rather unwieldy.
The AMC ones are the smallest ones, (though I've never seen the pikas) and consequently can often be just as awkward to use with offsize bolts as the RP ones.
Make your own decisions. I wasn't attacking you, just making a lighthearted comment that the first place a lot of people hear about bolt hangers is in a certain book, where it mentions them by the RP name.
Cheers,
Karl P
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V
Social climber
Hawi, Hawaii
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Jul 18, 2005 - 04:13am PT
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Hi Cybele. I don't have any info on rivets, but I was wondering how Erik's health is after 8 months and if everything is OK. Hope to hear from you. Grazie. Au revoir. Vikki
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jul 18, 2005 - 11:39pm PT
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RP keyhole hangers were distributed here in the U.S. by Pacific Crossing, a small outfit out of Colorado that also brought in the brass micro-nuts. I have not tried all of the keyhole hanger designs that are now available but I like the RP hangers better than the Pika and PFH hangers. Another problem with the PFH hanger (in addition to the leverage problem inherent to both the Pika and PFH designs, as Mike pointed out…) is that the biner is oriented perpendicular to the rock as opposed to parallel to it (as is apparently the case with the Lucky keyhole hanger as well). I prefer to have a biner oriented parallel to the rock, especially at belays where multiple biners may be clipped to the single biner that is attached to the keyhole hanger (preferably a locker if at a belay). In testing, I have found RP keyhole hangers to be more than bomber.
Here is the mega-rivet in question:
http://powers.com/product_05548.html
Stainless steel Powers ‘Spike’ buttonhead bolt – 3/8” diameter by 2” in length
This is the supposed “rivet” that Erik is placing on classic Yosemite wall routes. This is Erik’s idea of a good replacement for a 1/4" buttonhead or thread-head, a 1/4" Zamac rivet, or a 1/4" aluminum dowel, etc. It doesn’t matter how dicey the original rivet is, or was even meant to be (on the FA), Erik will replace whatever it is with a big-ass-totally-overkill-mofo-haul-worthy-pansy-ass-wussy-rivet, better known as a FAT BOLT in the middle of a pitch (to the liking of his SuperTopo followers, of course…).
These 3/8” bolts will accept an RP keyhole hanger if the bolt is placed with sufficient clearance – i.e. about 1/4" of space between the rock and the head of the bolt. If the bolt is placed too tight to the rock, an RP hanger will not fit. These bolts are so FAT that even smaller length cable rivet hangers will not fit over the bolt head. Kind of funny to have an anchor that can never be used to its full strength potential, don’t you think? Or is this Erik’s idea of a ‘sporty’ anchor that will last for a long time? There are other problems associated with this bolt, including severe rock damage during removal for replacement… but these details will be further discussed at a later point in time.
The real problem here is that a rivet that was intended to hold not much more than bodyweight on the FA is replaced with a bolt that will hold the weight of the entire climbing team and all of their gear and supplies combined. Why show belay locations in the topo when you can belay anywhere in the middle of a pitch?
The bottom line:
A SS 3/8” Spike buttonhead bolt is a very poor choice for rivet replacement on aid routes; the person placing these bolts (not rivets) should start to listen to the rest of the climbing community instead of acting in favor of their own personal interests.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 19, 2005 - 12:16am PT
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Hey Minerals
This will be just some jive and don’t take this to serious. But, I thought rivets came into existence due to longer blank sections and full bolt ladders became a real pain to drill. The preferred method was always a good solid bolt ladder with good bolts that you could even belay from?
Are dicey rivets now supposed to be the norm if the FA put them in that way? Me I would be happy to have a good solid rivet / bolt ladder any day.
Driving down the original old Priest Grade in my old Pontiac le Mond under clinging the steering wheel with both feet on the brakes was fun too.
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lazide
climber
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Jul 19, 2005 - 12:02pm PT
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Heya Bryan! How goes the motocross? I totally agree about the 3/8 Spike Anchors - those things are hella burly - to the point that removing them soon after installation is nearly impossible.
In my pet rock (granite), I actually ended up cratering the rock near the surface due to the high forces the spring action applies. (and wow did I have to hammer!)
Way overkill for rivets, and as you point out, they actually make it hard to use the normal rivet 'tools'.
Why not just replace with SS 1/4 x 2" Rawl Spike's? They won't need replacing anytime soon, and are still more than good enough for a rivet ladder. Way cheaper at about $.76 each (when buying by the 100) as well.
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cybele
Ice climber
finally, west of the Mississippi
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2005 - 06:36pm PT
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Thanks for the informative postings. I am told by a source in Australia that the SRT 10mm hangers are somewhat thinner than the PFH (therefore easier to put over tight fits). I am also told by someone who has climbed 60 or so walls that he likes the RP brand in the offset model because he finds them easier to coax over tight fits than other more readily US-available brands he's tried, or the other RP model, which is thicker. True, I do not know what all he's tried, but I know he owns an assortment, as well as a large swedger (which I have also used to to make a "reachy rivet hanger" a good few inches longer than the store type, and with a high clip-in point). The difference in fall-stopper potential between a removable bolt plate and a swedged wire (especially thinner) hanger seems, uh, duh. So for me answers the question "why not just make your own [wire ones?]". The answer is definitely not because I read it in a book I have never seen.
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KarlP
Social climber
Queensland, NorCal, Iceland
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Jul 22, 2005 - 09:05am PT
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As a final note, I do have to add that PFH hangers come in two orientations. The one that Minerals says he doesn't like, and the one that he says he does.
http://www.onrope.com.au/category104_1.htm
shows the two orientations available, but only in the fixed form, not the keyhole form. (and also, those are their super super beefy versions, the normal versions used for climbing are thinner, can't remember the rating stamped on them)
I prefer what that page calls 90° hangers, though they also get called 45° plates because of the angle of the fold across the plate, as opposed to the angle of the fold up from the plate. :) And then people use straight and angled, and it all gets confusing until someone whips one out.
I like PFH 90° hangers. I find they fit over more bolts than the RP hangers (in either of the available RP orientations) I generally avoid 45° hangers whereever possible. The leverage is what people commonly cite, and I'm sure that's important, but I just find them harder to use. Harder to get on bolts, and harder to clip into, and leaves you with a biner laying in an odd way.
Cheers,
Karl P
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lazide
Big Wall climber
Bay Area, CA
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Oct 19, 2005 - 10:48am PT
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And as a side note, here is a photo of these rivets with washers.
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macgyver
Social climber
Oregon, but now in Europe
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Oct 19, 2005 - 11:22am PT
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I use the lucky hangers as well. They fit on most rivets I have come across...and like Mike...I have taken some falles on them and they held up.
You can often get them cheap from Euros travelling to the states *you buy them from barrabes.com*.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 19, 2005 - 11:42am PT
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"Driving down the original old Priest Grade in my old Pontiac le Mond under clinging the steering wheel with both feet on the brakes was fun too."
Did that at age 16 in a '69 ford van with bad brakes, an automatic, and no concept of downshifting same.
Now that, was sport.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 19, 2005 - 07:48pm PT
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So we need 1/4" RP style rivit hangers...
Maybe I'll try to get a quote on having some made.
What grade of stainless is best to use?
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lazide
Big Wall climber
Bay Area, CA
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Oct 19, 2005 - 08:06pm PT
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Not sure if there is a better grade, but I do know that Metolius hangers are made using 304SS, and I expect almost all stainless climbing hardware you see is the same. (its the most commonly used stainless steel alloy)
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Shack
Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 19, 2005 - 08:12pm PT
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Thanx...I'll let you know what I find out.
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