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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 11:35am PT
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I also lived in Israel, as you have and find your thread title an affront to millions of good people.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 27, 2008 - 11:36am PT
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I still can't understand why we support the Israeli scum. I have nothing against Jews (well, about as much as I do against any religion), but Israel as a country is a scumbag of a nation, unworthy of my tax dollars.
Somehow when I learned about apartheid in school I made the mistake of learning the concept was bad, not the name. I've yet to hear a convincing argument as to why we should be their friend. The usual retort of "They are friendlier to us thena their neighbors" does not pass the laugh test.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:11pm PT
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Chris2 Please understand that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is an affront to millions of good people. The OP may seem over the top but when comparing the tactics of the third Reich and Israel in suppressing and occupying others a parallel is not hard to make.
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:18pm PT
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Here ya go Moof: there is one democracy in the middle east (unless you count the new democracy of Iraq). ONE.
As far as the OPs claim goes, the Israelis get rocketed daily. DAILY! Those rockets blow up all over the place, in fact, 2 Palestinians died 2 days ago when their rocket blew pre-launch. We wouldn't put up with that crap, ie, as#@&%es regularly and daily targeting our civilians - and they shouldn't either.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:21pm PT
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Walking through the Israeli Holocaust museum in Jerusalem and then returning to where I was living that same day and seeing an elderly man reaching for some food at the table with numbers tattooed on his arm, is testament enough for me that associating Israeli’s with Nazi's is very wrong.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:40pm PT
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Chris2, I believe you're correct in saying that associating the Nazi party with Israeli is incorrect but I fail to see the relevance of a democracy if it kills the same number, if not more, than suicide bombers. Yes, it maybe a democracy but does that make every move a just decision which we should support financially? it makes me sick to think how much money we give them.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:40pm PT
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the palestinians have launched over 3000 rockets into israel just this year...200 since the truce ended two weeks ago; 200 hundred rockets in two weeks--you should be praising israel's restraint...these rockets are impossible to aim/guide; hamas just points them toward israel and lets them fly with no concern for civilians--not even their own as demonstrated by the rockets that fell short this week and killed two palestinian school girls; nobody in hamas as accepted responsibility...these are not surgical military strikes with civilians dying as collateral damage; these attacks are meant to terrorize and kill civilians
all hamas has to do is stop attacking israel...note, there isn't any trouble in the west bank, which is run by fatah
by the way, there are hundreds of thousands of arabs who live in israel; they are israeli citizens; they vote; they have representation in the israeli parliament; they openly and vociferously criticize the israeli government without repercussion...so, exactly whom is israel allegedly oppressing, besides the people who continually launch rockets at them?
and how is israel like the nazis? when was the last time israel had a totalitarian government? when was the last time they launched a war of conquest? when was the last time they rounded up an entire population of people, used them as slave labor, and systematically exterminated them?
israel is the only stable democracy in the region, and they are our allies and have proven their trustworthiness...remember the gulf war when saddam was launching scud missiles into israel? we asked them to not retaliate because we felt israeli involvement would widen the war; the israelis respected our wishes despite repeated attacks
and, next to america, the israelis have the best military in the world--they're badass, and i want them on our side no matter whom we're fighting
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:42pm PT
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Comparing the Isrealis to Nazis is pretty offensive.
They have not always treated the Palestinians well, but it's a far cry from the genocidal policies of the Nazis.
And while civilian deaths suck, they pretty much have to do something, with more than 100 missles a day coming at them.
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crøtch
climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:52pm PT
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Would the US sit passively while Mexico launched hundreds of missiles over the border into San Diego?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:54pm PT
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Someone please post up a death toll, casualty list, property damage assessment for these 2000 "rockets" into Israel. Then let's compare notes. If restraint was reasonable against the very real threat of Saddam's much more accurate and destructive Scuds then why is a brutal air assault and a pending invasion a proper response to the desperate futility of the Katushka attacks? Wouldn't food and water and a little fuel for heat and hospitals make more allies tan enemies?
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Dec 27, 2008 - 01:59pm PT
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to answer crotch,
no, but zionists
that live in israel would.
zionism=nazism
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:01pm PT
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would we sit by while we were "surgically" bombed? yea right. I don't think either side is correct, however the point is that we financially support Israel heavily. Can you not see the inconsistency? We should remove all financial support from Israel, they can fight their own war.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:02pm PT
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There is no doubt that the isralies have become what was done to them. they use many of the same tactics. buldozeing homes of family members of freedom fighters etc. My cousin (also jewish) was in isreal a few years ago and she had also been to South africa in the aparthide days. she was appaled and saw little difference in the way the isralis treated the palastinians vs the way the whites treated the blacks in SA.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:13pm PT
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Armchair media watchers think they know so much about the world. How Europe is so much better than America, how America sux so bad, how we're helping the zionist persecute the palestinians and everyone knows thats the root of all the trouble in the middle east. Whatever! These people are snowed into believing something that isn't true. Last time I was in Tel there were more Russians than Jews anyway. These people need to go visit the left bank and see where the problems really stem from. Go watch the fake combat scenes Hamas sells to Al jazeera. No doubt there is wrong on BOTH sides and nothing will be done about it until BOTH sides are willing to sit down and come up with a real world answer. I thought the world was gonna end when ariel sharon took over but he ended up trying to give half of Israel to the Palestinians. That wasn't good enough though. Look what happened to Yasser. When he got older and decide talking was better than throwing molotov cocktails they pushed him out and called him a sympathizer.
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:16pm PT
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Philo, Israel exercised restraint during Saddam’s Scud attacks because there was a large coalition of Arab countries lined up against Iraq along the side of Western powers.
If Israel had gotten involved in the first Iraqi war under daddy Bush the Arab nations would have been forced to drop their allegiance to the coalition.
d-know comparing Zionism to Nazism is so far off I wouldn't know where to begin to correct such a statement.
jbar Al Jazeera offers the BEST news coming out of that region.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:20pm PT
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Some terrorists in Tijuana maybe ought to shoot a few missiles randomly into LA and see how some of you feel about it.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:27pm PT
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Chris2 posted
"Walking through the Israeli Holocaust museum in Jerusalem and then returning to where I was living that same day and seeing an elderly man reaching for some food at the table with numbers tattooed on his arm, is testament enough for me that associating Israeli’s with Nazi's is very wrong".
First Chris2 The Palestinians had nothing, I repeat NOTHING to do with the Holocaust of WW2. In fact they were invaluable allies to Britain and the US during WW2. Yet the displaced and occupied Palestinians are constantly getting the Holocaust rammed down their throats as a justification for the daily brutality of their occupation.
When you see the pictures of the mass round up arrests where the IDF have used sharpies to number the arms of detainees. Sure sharpies are better than tatoos right? But what is the symbolic intent of such an act. When you've been made to feel real bad the one thing you remember is how to make others feel real bad. Or how about the pictures of the Star of David scrawled on once prosperous Palestinian store fronts schedule for take over or demolition in Hebron? Sure it's not a Swastica. But in this context what is the difference? Or how about the numerous videos that show IDF soldiers and/or vigilante unsettlers using large rocks to break the arms of elderly men and women. Who's only crime was trying to harvest their crops. How about the Israeli policy of not just targeting the suspected terrorist but their entire extended family and all their possessions as well? Bring in the bulldozers these twelve houses gotta go. What you got a problem 'cause there is still women and children inside? Well don't! Remember they are either terrorists or there are terrorists hiding behind them. Now go crush some ass!
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:28pm PT
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Hawkeye, that point was just addressed earlier. You can sympathize with either side, I'm just curious why people choose one side or the other. Both sides are guilty in my view, I just don't see why we sell Israel F18s. Its just a different form of terrorism.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 27, 2008 - 02:30pm PT
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I think you guys have a real shot at reaching an agreement here!
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