Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 60 of total 60 in this topic |
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 22, 2008 - 01:27pm PT
|
Controversial, yes. Which is reason enough to post this up here, not to mention that it's pertinent. Whether and when will the fine -- but fractured -- granite of our favorite mountain range next rain down upon our heads?
The Atomic Broom Theory
Was the High Sierra preternaturally cleaned of loose rock by weapons testing in Nevada? The evidence keeps tumbling down, says veteran climber Doug Robinson
By Doug Robinson
After some four decades of guiding the Palisades, widely regarded as the most impressive alpine region of the High Sierra, the crash of rockfall began scaring me off certain climbs, such as the classic Moon Goddess on Temple Crag. At first, I figured the change was within me, a creeping old-fart-ism, not an actual change in the rock.
But then I ran into an odd story that sparked me to propose the theory of the Atomic Broom. Daniel Wenger is another graying climber, who took up this ascending passion after 60. We often swap belays at Pacific Edge, our local gym in Santa Cruz. One day Daniel told me about backpacking into the Palisades in 1952. He was awakened before dawn by a sickly yellow flash in the eastern sky, followed by a huge rocking blast, and then rockfall from every peak in the cirque.
Decades of living in the Palisades all summer have gotten me used to bomb blasts. The deep rumble of target practice rolls in from the Nevada Test Site, slightly over a hundred air miles away. Those bombs, even conventional weapons, would pulse our eardrums. But Daniel’s story sounded a whole lot bigger.
Then it hit me: Atomic Bomb. That’s right when a lot of them were blown off, an even hundred above ground, in the desert north of Las Vegas. The Cold War.
H-bombs, even. Scores of atomic tests, and they went on for years. As a kid I saw the photos in Life magazine. The Army had even lined up troops a few miles away, to see if they’d be able to fight afterward. And then, decades later, when the radiation damage began showing up with cancer clusters downwind in Utah, the Army had conveniently “lost” their lists of which guys were in those tests.
But back to the rockfall they triggered. Booming down off every peak in the cirque.
We started showing up in the Palisades not that long afterward, in the early ‘60s. First Don Jensen, who made the first ascent of the Moon Goddess with clients in 1969, and then my crew from Yosemite. Unconsciously, we calibrated our sense of the relative solidness of the rock. But quite unknown to us the whole east-facing rampart of the highest Sierra had been scoured by the Atomic Broom.
Think about it. Those were the biggest explosions mankind – compulsively playing with fire – has ever ignited. Mega-tonnage of blast power rolled out massive shockwaves through the atmosphere. Those pulses cleared the Inyo Mountains and the Funeral Range above Death Valley and slammed into the eastern escarpment of the High Sierra. It’s a direct hit on the highest walls up under the crest, where the shock wave scoured the East Face of Whitney and the magnificent ribs and buttresses of Mt. Russell. They were about 100 miles from Ground Zero, with the Palisades barely a few miles further.
That’s where young Daniel awoke to the result: rockfall pouring off of every peak, rattling the Sierra dawn.
The atomic blasts went on for years, nearly a thousand of them in all, if you count the biggest explosions that were detonated underground. Often enough they too breached the surface. The highest Sierra was being relentlessly swept by the Atomic Broom.
We had waltzed into a landscape artificially swept clean of loose rock. Who knew?
Then, gradually over the five decades following, each year’s frost-wedging has teetered more blocks. Things are returning now to a normal we have never known. Normal for the peaks, but it feels loose to us.
It just happened that all those first ascents, our little golden age of technical walls and airy aretes in the High Sierra from the late ‘60s through the early ‘70s, were done in a period of unusual solidness, a historical anomaly. We were innocent beneficiaries of the Atomic Age.
from Adventure Sports Journal, Sept-Oct '08 www.adventuresportsjournal.com/html/Articles/45/alpinism.htm
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 01:32pm PT
|
cool idea Doug... let me ponder it...
|
|
wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 01:38pm PT
|
Sounds absolutely feasible to me. Hell, I've been blown away when a military jet flies by me a few hundred feet off the deck (illegally) in the Yosemite backcountry, and just from the soundwaves rolling off of it, the rocks come tumbling down. I'm sure that a physical shockwave from air displacement would move some rocks.
|
|
Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 01:38pm PT
|
This is an interesting notion Doug. You can get some pretty good numbers on the tests these days (I'm wondering about your number of 1000 tests--that has got to be too high). Might be able to compare the energy density to sonic booms from aircraft or even thunder to get an idea of how unusual the atomic testing acoustic waves were.
I guess there could also be some ground movement, but it is hard to believe it could compare with earthquakes.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2008 - 02:19pm PT
|
Yeah, the number of tests was checked several places, including the DOE. Total tests # varies slightly depending on the source, but above ground number seems pretty agreed on at an even hundred.
The magnitude of the shockwave a hundred miles away is the interesting question. I cribbed some old DOE footage (it's public domain) to put into a movie about the Nevada desert, and even a few miles from ground zero the force is nothing but awesome.
Having my eardrums boxed quite regularly from merely conventional weapons in Nevada was a weekly if not daily experience of living in the Palisades. Thousand pound bombs maybe? I have no idea.
So when Daniel said the A-Bomb triggered "rockfall from every peak in the cirque," it got my attention.
|
|
Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 02:31pm PT
|
Hi Dougie,
Well this is a thrilling idea. But the facts aren't quite right. Those explosions/tests in Nevada were actually mostly pretty small tonnage tests, smaller than ones at some of the other sites and those much-admired two that fell on Japan. And some of them were underground.
http://www.radiochemistry.org/history/nuke_tests/index.shtml.
And there were not thousands of these tests at the Nevada Test Site. Apparently there were 205. I think we also have to put a sharper point to your idea, that we are talking about geological shockwaves and not atmospheric blast waves. And it is more like 150 miles from the site I think isn't it.
But I like your "Nuclear Escoba de Dios" concept; good sci fi and eerie! The website above has some interesting and gruesome detail about the statistical epidemiology for each of these blasts.
I am sure Ed H will have something to say soon. Although he "is only a lowly particle physicist" and I do quote him here.
best ph.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 02:45pm PT
|
I'm fairly sure that the US didn't test any thermonuclear weapons (hydrogen bombs) in the continental US. Certainly none above ground. They were detonated over various atolls in the Pacific, which for the most part obliterated said atolls.
The bombs set off in Nevada, and a few other places (e.g. Amchitka) were all atomic bombs, and relatively low yield. 1% - 10% of the explosive force of an H-bomb. Above-ground tests were banned after the Nuclear Test Ban treaty (1962?), although even before then some were done underground. Even the dimbulbs in the government had by then figured out that the effects of an underground test were just as easily measured, and that it was less destructive of property and the atmosphere.
Whether an above-ground or a below-ground explosion has greater effect on the surrounding environment, e.g. earth tremors etc, is beyond me. But I bet the government knows - certain that they measured the near and distant effects. There must also be records of all the tests - where, when, yield, below or above ground. Gradually fewer as time went on, but not ended until the 1990s.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 03:07pm PT
|
if you look around you can find relevant information... for instance on Paul Richard's site in this history of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) the conversion from Yield, Y to magnitude, m:
m = 3.92 + 0.81 log Y
where Y is in kilotons.
The Threshold Test Ban Treaty (TTBT) was signed in 1974 and limited test yields to 150 kilotons. So after that date the maximum magnitude would be:
m = 3.92 + 0.81* 2.81 = 5.7
Now we need the geologists to tell us what this means in terms of moving the Sierra...
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2008 - 03:42pm PT
|
Some of the biggest below-ground tests didn't stay there. Google "Sedan Crater" for a peek at breaching the surface. I think that was one of the biggest underground tests, and it broke through the surface.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 03:46pm PT
|
Sedan was a test of the use of nuclear ordinance for excavation, it was designed to excavate, it was a part of the "peaceful uses" program.
|
|
Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 03:56pm PT
|
Thanks Ed.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 04:12pm PT
|
A small earthquake, like the ones we get all the time in California, packs a hell of a lot more energy than all the a-bomb blasts put together.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2008 - 04:23pm PT
|
Thanks for the reference, Ed.
Since I was mainly interested in the atmospheric shockwave and Sedan was one of the biggest tests, it caught my attention:
A circular area of the desert floor five miles across was obscured by fast-expanding dust clouds moving out horizontally from the base surge, akin to pyroclastic surge.
That article calls it "70% fusion." Doesn't that make it what a layman like me would call an H-Bomb?
Klaus-- Give it a rest. I have other interests besides Half Dome. Do you?
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2008 - 04:49pm PT
|
Chaz,
You're probably right that even a small quake "packs a hell of a lot more energy," and I've seen a 6.2 quake centered right under the Wheeler Crest two miles from my house in Round Valley roll a lot of rocks off that hillside in May 1980.
I'm just trying to account for my friend's wild experience of rockfall from every peak in the Palisades from an aboveground test, and multiplying it by a hundred. Plus the big underground rockers like Sedan that ended up in the atmosphere big time.
I don't know how to compare the rockfall effects of quakes and air shockwaves. It's an excellent question, and I'd be happy to share a beer with anyone who's got ideas.
On the Valley rockfall thread, someone posted up John Muir's eyewitness of the 1872 earthquake in the Valley. Pretty impressive. (The Yosemite archivist, BTW, couldn't find anything for me about the location of the "Eagle Rock" he mentions toppling. A third Cathedral Spire?) That quake was centered in Lone Pine, down on the Eastside. A long way from the Valley. Sources count it as possibly California's largest quake in the historical record. About 8.3. Killed a third of the folks in Lone Pine that night (adobe houses). The fault scarp on the north end of town (ironically right next to their mass grave) is 20' vertically. Implying that Mt. Whitney gained 20 feet of height in a few seconds that night. Now that would have shaken a few rocks loose up and down the crest.
Somewhere I saw reference to a geologist who went around checking out mega-boulders that had toppled, as a way of inferring the shaking level of prehistoric quakes. Something to think about next time you're leading Headstone Rock. Or bouldering in the Buttermilk...
|
|
midarockjock
climber
USA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 05:05pm PT
|
Once at Sally Keyes lake while fishing I noticed all the rings
and fish jumping in the lake stop about 15-20 seconds prior to
not being able to walk without being thrown off balance. They
knew before we did.
Estimate 6.8 however when we returned from the mountains there
was no seismic reports.
B-52 Tribute - 50 years of Air Power (With Rock and Roll)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZMh-_CmoGE&NR=1
Hardening? How many were drones?
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 05:46pm PT
|
One thing that has always struck me in observing old photographs of the Valley, many dating back to the 19th century, is what appears to be a relatively recent rather dramatic increase in the amount of vegetation growing both in the talus slopes and on the rock walls as well. There also seems to be an increase in the amount of lichen growth during the last century. Walls in the valley seem much more grown over with lichen than they did in the last century. No doubt the increase in vegetation on the Valley floor has to do with fire suppression, but that doesn't seem likely on the walls themselves. Perhaps fluctuations in weather patterns leading to periods of vigorous plant and lichen growth may play some role in periods of increased rockfall.
|
|
nick d
Trad climber
nm
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 07:13pm PT
|
In 1967 there was an underground test in Northern New Mexico near my hometown called Project Gasbuggy. It was intended to fracture the ground to increase gas and oil yields. That didn't work out.
I was 9 and my father took me out as close as they would allow us to approach, about 20 miles from the test (near Dulce). We could feel the ground shake pretty good at that distance. I didn't notice any rockfalls in the cliffs and canyons where I played near my home at a distance of roughly 70 miles from the test.
A similar test was conducted near Rifle, Colorado.
Both of those tests wound up breaching the surface and vented significant amounts of radioactive steam. Insignificant, I'm sure compared to the amount of fallout generated by the huge numbers of tests in Nevada.
I recently found out that Kirtland Air Force base just south of here (Albuquerque) has a field that was purposefully contaminated with radioactive elements so they could march soldiers through it to test the effects on them. Good thing the wind only blows from South to North 50% of the time here.
Just something to consider the next time you are in a big dust storm out West. Who says the cold war is over?
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 09:20pm PT
|
There was a thing on NPR last week about how all the trees alive during those tests have an enormous extra amount of Carbon-16 in them. They did more studies and found that PEOPLE alive then also have more Carbon-16. Crazy.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 09:44pm PT
|
Standing back, considering the topic and absorbing all the comments.....once again makes me appreciate ST and the tribe. Where else can one go to hear and gain the insights and perspectives found here. Not my field of expertise but sure have learned alot. Cheers guys
Edit: "stands to be corrected and clarified". Why I rarely post on scientific threads ..who wants to be clarified like butter etc....a somewhat painful process...best just to listen and observe. Smiles and enjoy your Thanksgiving.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 10:08pm PT
|
I stand corrected, or at least clarified. The Sedan test, if none other, was a thermonuclear explosion. Relatively low yield (103 kilotonnes), and about 1/3 of the energy from fission and 2/3 from fusion. But nevertheless fusion. I wonder if there were other thermonuclear (fusion) underground tests? I'd had the belief that they were generally too large to be done underground, but it seems not.
|
|
cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 10:24pm PT
|
It is an interesting theory, with an awesome name, but I think shockwaves do slow down quite exponentially. Even earthquakes are localized in effect, except for the really, really big ones that totally dwarf all manmade kilotonnage.
The first HD quip made me laugh out loud, gotta say. The second one, not so much.
|
|
wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 10:26pm PT
|
Anders, it takes a big man to admit they were wrong.
It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 10:33pm PT
|
There shouldn't be any nukes what so ever.
Only a demonic society will have something that useless and destructive. Nukes are no good period.
They've known how to split the atom since the beginning of creation but chose not to, until some rascals wanted just recently.
Children playing with matches unsupervised is what nuclear science is in reality.
|
|
cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 10:48pm PT
|
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 10:50pm PT
|
The B61 which is probably still in service (or a derivitive) is a "dial a Yeld" device from 0.3-170 kt. The 0.3kt is probably what you get from the Fission part of the physics package by itself.
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Weapons/B61.html
I wouldn't be counted in the "atomic broom theory" category.
A few experiences;
We were up on a climb in Black Velvet Canyon, Red Rocks when the then Blue Diamond mine cut loose with a blast across the valley. The shock wave was powerfull enough to push my whole body into the rock. Focused by the topography it felt like when the fat smart ass in elementary school pushed you in the lunch line. But, there was no rockfall.
Shortly after the Landers (7+) quake I got directions to the point where the fault ruptured the surface. The scarp was impressive with a 7 ft vertical lift, 27 ft of displacement to the north, all happening in 27 seconds. There were fissures in the surface that if you droped a rock in they rattled down for probably 50 -100 ft. I have a great photo of my son who was about 9 or 10 at the time standing in the rift, unable to reach the sides with outstretched arms.
There are JTree style formations of seemingly balanced bolders 60-80 ft high within a few hundred yards of the surface rupture.
Nothing was disturbed on those formations!
As far as I know, no climb or feature in J Tree was altered by that quake even though it blew away numerous buildings in the area!
My first time into the Palisades and up the U Notch there were rap slings 30 -60 ft overhead (early 90's, they've all rotted away and been blown to the winds by now) The snow level had changed that much. The old Sierra club guide, (1965) warns about being in the gullies in the afternoon because of rock fall. The normal patern now seems to be a peak in activity shortly after dawn.
Now that the sun is going on hiatus the next few years should cool and I'd expect a whole new pattern to develop.
What does all this mean?
Hell, I don't know, except that some puny, in geological terms follies of humanity probably had no consequence in the Range of Light.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 11:03pm PT
|
ok for SoCal the Gutenberg-Richter relationship for earthquake magnitude is:
log(N) = 5.5 - M
where N is the number of earthquakes per year with magnitude ≥ M
This means that for M = 5.7 (our calculation of the magnitude of a 150 kT test) we'd expect 2 of these every 3 years, considerably more than nuclear tests since 1992...
my guess is that the Atomic Broom Theory doesn't quite explain Doug's observation.
Where's Juan when you need him?
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 11:08pm PT
|
Whether true or false, this whole thing makes great sci-fi.
"Where Dirtbags Collide"
It draws such a startling visual, this great wave cleaning swaths of granite all along the countenance of a proud and sturdy range, the effects trickling down as it were to set the stage for our glorious little passtime.
|
|
Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 11:24pm PT
|
God that was a riot Tarbaby!
|
|
gstock
climber
Yosemite Valley
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 11:36pm PT
|
I wrote some of this in an earlier post on another thread, but here are some things to think about:
The May 1980 Mammoth Lakes earthquakes, with a maximum magnitude of 6.3, triggered thousands of rockfalls in the Sierra Nevada (Harp et al., 1984, USGS map I-1612), including at least nine here in Yosemite Valley. The atomic broom must have been less efficient than these earthquakes if it left that much loose debris to be dislocated in 1980.
I would think it would take more than a few decades for weathering processes to loosen rocks up again after a good "sweep". I can't claim to know what the rockfall "reset" time is, but fewer rockfalls occur from areas that were glaciated during the Tioga glaciation 18,000 years ago.
I don't doubt Doug's observations based on decades of being out there, but I do want to emphasize a point regarding the purported increase in Yosemite rockfalls over the past few decades. This increase is almost certainly an increase in rockfall reporting rate, not actual rockfalls, and the reporting rate will be higher where there are more people (i.e., Curry Village). Simply put: more people, more documentation, more rockfalls.
In order to properly quantify a change in rockfall rate, cliffs must be closely monitored over many years. We have started using terrestrial laser scanning (lidar) to make cm-precision maps of Valley walls for this purpose, and plan to repeat the scans every few years.
Greg
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 11:58pm PT
|
(Laughing, of course.)
I don't know about Werner, but I'm fairly fond of nuclear fusion myself. It powers the sun and keeps us warm and toasty. It indirectly created the elements that form the earth.
But I agree that we've maybe let a djinn out of the bottle, when creating weapons using such things. Pandora's box.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 12:06am PT
|
"The brahmastra is similar to the modern nuclear weapon manipulated by atomic energy. The atomic energy works wholly on total combustibility, and so the brahmastra also acts. It creates an intolerable heat similar to atomic radiation, but the difference is that the atomic bomb is a gross type of nuclear weapon, whereas the brahmastra is a subtle type of weapon produced by chanting hymns. The subtle science of chanting hymns is also material, but it has yet to be known by the modern material scientists."
Subtle material science is not spiritual, but it has a direct relationship with the spiritual method, which is still subtler. A chanter of hymns knew how to apply the weapon as well as how to retract it. That was perfect knowledge.
The radiation of atomic energy is very insignificant in comparison to the heat produced by a brahmāstra. The atomic bomb explosion can at utmost blow up one globe, but the heat produced by the brahmāstra can destroy the whole cosmic situation. The comparison is therefore made to the heat at the time of annihilation.
Therefore the brahmāstra, more effective and finer than the atomic weapons, was not as blind as the atomic bombs. When the atomic bombs are discharged they do not discriminate between the target and others. Mainly the atomic bombs do harm to the innocent because there is no control. The brahmāstra is not like that. It marks out the target and proceeds accordingly without harming the innocent.
From the Vedic "Srimad-Bhagavatam"
|
|
nick d
Trad climber
nm
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 12:24am PT
|
Werner, why did you not use that on Cheney?
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2008 - 02:02am PT
|
Cool discussion. You're bringing my assumptions to light -- always a good thing.
Realizing I have a whole different mindset toward the rock in the Valley and Tuolumne than up along the crest further south. All that stone that was under the Tioga glaciation is far more monolithic. Sweep it with ice, it stays swept. We expect to see glacier polish, and I'm even surprised that a mere 18,000 years has spalled off so much of it. Other Westside rock like say Charlotte Dome and the Needles is essentially the same: massive and bulletproof. Tarbuster's "countenance of a proud and sturdy range" is pure Westside.
But the rock up along the crest is wholly different. Blocks and slivery blades, and they aren't all that big. Most of the ridges feel like stacked blocks and if you get off and look from the sides you can see that structure. You can almost feel the frost-wedging levering that stuff around, year by year. A few decades, even after an atomic brooming, seems like plenty to reset it toward loose. Greg, your lasers would go crazy up there.
When Greg mentions stuff that escaped the Tioga glaciation, I think immediately of Cathedral Peak. Or the upper pitches of Fairview. Not hard to find loose blockiness there, even with the pitter-patter of massive human traffic knocking it loose onto parties below. The truly High Sierra is worse.
I think you guys may be right, that earthquakes have a much more powerful cleaning action than the sweep of the atomic broom. Say the three quakes of 6+ in May 1980 are the most recent of any size (true?). By the mid-90s is about when I got nervous enough about increased looseness on the Moon Goddess (Temple Crag) to stay off, and start warning others that I felt it was "no longer a rock climb." A fairly radical thing to say, but there have been two deaths on the route since then. That's 15 years for a reset due to naturally loosening. Way short by Yosemite standards, but along the crest it feels completely reasonable. There are places on the Moon Goddess, viewed from the side, where it appears to be stacked blades from 6" to two feet thick.
The Moon Goddess is an extreme example. Fortunately, most of the highest Sierra is sturdier than that.
|
|
Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 08:30am PT
|
Interesting discussion, and Howdy Doug!
My family has some history with the test site in Nevada. The step-father of my birth mom, Melody, was an "atomic" veteran, being one of those poor soldier guinea pigs who got to stand close by and watch the blast, wearing goggles, so the army could learn of what effects it might have on nearby humans. He died in his early 30's with cancer all over.
Melody went to the test site for about 20 years straight to protest the testing. I took my son Braden when he was about 10 yrs old to watch grandma get arrested.
I also heard with interest that news report last week that spoke of the carbon 16 in all the trees and all the humans alive in the fifties. Doug I always thought you had a "certain glow" about you, now I know its true!
Peter
|
|
OGBO
Trad climber
Palo Alto, CA
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 11:03am PT
|
One minor factor left out so far is that the surface effects depend on the depth of the quake as well as the magnitude. On the Richter-Gutenberg scale, the magnitude is computed from a combination of the body motion and the surface motion.
A large number of the apparently delicately balanced rocks in JT, Sierra, elsewhere have been shaken by many quakes over many thousands of years and are actually pretty well settled into more or less stable positions. OTOH, many are just waiting for a small "tipping" push in the right direction to depart in a major way.
Some comparative numbers - the Loma Prieta quake in 1989 is currently listed as 6.9 (down from what they told us right afterwards of 7.1 or 7.2), an energy release of 26.8 MT. The largest nuclear explosion was the Tsar Bomba in Siberia at 50 MT, equivalent to Richter 7.1. The 9.2 Anchorage quake in 1964 was equivalent of 90.7 GT
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 11:40am PT
|
"A large number of the apparently delicately balanced rocks in JT, Sierra, elsewhere have been shaken by many quakes over many thousands of years and are actually pretty well settled into more or less stable positions."
That’s my perception.
A lot of those monolithic tombstones currently standing in Joshua Tree don't fall over during quakes for probably just this reason. Much like those blow up clowns with sand in the base which kids once punched; a lot of the mass is at the bottom. The tops there also are likely rounded smaller from submersive and wind erosion.
As Doug Robinson says however, the eastern escarpment of the Sierra Nevada is characterized differently; very much by a surface, often even a structure, which is "splintered".
(My statement above, "countenance of a proud and sturdy range", puffy, grandiose, intentionally aping the Victorian, was intended to serve a post entirely grounded in humor, although certainly that description is faithful to the impression one receives from afar...)
I was in Mammoth Lakes during those big quakes in 1980 and happened to be bouldering on a large boulder (likely a glacial erratic) which used to sit behind the high school. I couldn’t quite do one of the problems which I had done before; so I stepped back off of the rock to look at it once more and noticed that the sand around the base was undulating and moving.
I watched the big boulder rock back and forth; it wasn’t going to be toppling, but at my back and up on a high crest, coming out of a feature called the Rock Chute (and Finger Chutes maybe?) came spewing toward the ground very large amount of debris.
Also anecdotally, in furtherance of some of these observations up in the Eastern Sierra: I was in the Palisades in summer of 1976. (Some may remember this was a big drought year). We had just done a long loop from Lamark Col, down through the Evolution region, up into Dusy Basin, over Agassiz Col and having arrived late afternoon we were surveying the U Notch from the lateral/terminal moraine of the Palisade Glacier. Glacier Camp it might be called, or thereabouts.
There in the late afternoon we witnessed absolutely massive rock fall: I really thought it was a segmented chunk the size of a freight car, big enough that as we watched it fall it had that slow-moving look as in the movies: like the Guns of Navarone being liberated from their perches, these behemoths came charging down the U Notch and shook the glacier and surrounding ground beneath our feet.
|
|
hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 12:22pm PT
|
This is fascinating stuff.
All of these past post talk about ground effects, what about air blasts? I'm no scientist by any means, but I have learned that certain explosives have more of a shattering effect in an air blast situation (as in Avalanche control) then they do if they are on, or in, the ground.
Just how much of an air shock wave would there be from a large detonation, especially if it was done x-number of feet above ground? Enough to topple rocks in the Palisades basin before dawn 100-150 miles away? Was that perhaps a one-of-a-kind test?
As far as concrete numbers of detonations at the Nevada test range, does anyone really think the public has access to ALL test data? I would think knott.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 12:27pm PT
|
I thought DR was in fact referring to a shockwave which primarily effected a gargantuan air blast.
(I'll have to read it again).
Certainly one of the posters up-thread described an eye-opening air blast scenario of a different nature...
Fun thread!
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 12:37pm PT
|
"Mega-tonnage of blast power rolled out massive shockwaves through the atmosphere. Those pulses cleared the Inyo Mountains and the Funeral Range above Death Valley and slammed into the eastern escarpment of the High Sierra. It’s a direct hit on the highest walls up under the crest, where the shock wave scoured the East Face of Whitney and the magnificent ribs and buttresses of Mt. Russell"
|
|
Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 12:54pm PT
|
Tarbaby, the worst part of it was that all the cowboy hats flew off. But this was before your time, at least for wearing ten gallon units.
This highly florid concept is just so much fun to work with, isn’t it? Love your quote and emphasis on the visuals that have been developed here, it’s high fantasy really!
|
|
hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 12:58pm PT
|
Why is it high fantasy?
Seems there is an eye witness report.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 01:15pm PT
|
These scenarios add a new tilt to the term "blow job".
(Sorry, I'm a bad man, I know. Hadda nock that one over though, what with the set up and all...)
Please continue with the science stuff; I will refrain from goofing off.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 01:19pm PT
|
The air blast dissipates tremendously with distance... starting out as a shock wave, but eventually loosing it's energy to heating the very large volume of atmosphere engulfed in that rapidly expanding zone.
Reflections off of the two dominate surfaces: the land and the top of the atmosphere, channel the pressure wave, and it is measurable everywhere, but the mechanical effect is very very small.
Remember the image of Fermi dropping his pieces of paper at the observer's site for Trinity and calculating the yield of that test. No hats were blowing off, and you know the physicists were as close as they could convince the Army...
Seismic waves propagate through a stiffer medium, move faster and have less dissipation. Coupling the blasts to the geological structures in the Basin-Range, and having it move through those structures, would be the most likely mechanical scenario. But I'm no geophysicist... there is anecdotal evidence of significant ground motion (and building sway) from underground tests detected in Las Vegas, about 90 miles away from the National Test Site (NTS). So these tests did make the earth move, at least for some people.
Given that the "average" seismic activity probably is a factor in sweeping the teetering blocks at some point in their reduction of gravitational potential, it is possible that there is a slight reduction of such sweeping after testing ceased in 1992.
Unfortunately, I can be of no help for filling in the details, but do make use of many of the online resources to provide bounds in estimates of test activities, and don't be surprised if those bounds are not very restrictive...
I'd guess there is no way to really prove, or disprove Doug's original hypothesis, with or without all of the details.
An interesting speculation, though.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 01:26pm PT
|
Well I can attest that BITD I climbed with a person whose flatus was of such a powerful and violent nature that large flakes would be caused to tumble from their perches as he entered the canyon and, while anecdotal, the evidence remains that we suffered no further loose rock in our forays.
But you don't want to share a tent with this guy.
Doug,
sent you an email, it keeps bouncing.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2008 - 02:21pm PT
|
Sorry, Ron.
My email's been screwed up for over a week. Talked to my local service provider Friday, but clearly I need to go back to them.
Apologies to anyone else who's been trying to contact me. Has the Taco become my last gasp of communication?
Doug
cell 831.234.0177
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
|
Got it.
Well the Sierra may have benefited from a little shakedown during the tests but downwind in southern Utah babies were being born with tails and extra arms growing out of their foreheads.
Pretty remarkable climbers though,..
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 02:37pm PT
|
Hey Tar, "refrain from goofing off" looks like a double negative--leaving 'goofing.'
I hope you mean it!
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2008 - 02:52pm PT
|
Back on topic: Yes, I meant the air blast. Thanks to several of you for catching that.
I can't prove, of course, that the "rockfall from every peak in the cirque" that my friend eyewitnessed in 1952 resulted from air blast and not ground waves.
But here's the striking piece of evidence that came to me almost daily when I lived up there all summer during the Seventies: the sharp pressure wave on my eardrums every time a blast went off to the east. I'm not talking about the noise, but the pressure wave. Sharp, almost painful.
The noise itself helped localize its source. To the east, and pretty far away. You know how distant thunder retains only its deepest tones, and the noise gets fuzzy around the edges? No longer a distinct Crack! but more like a low rumble? Well these booms had that slight fuzziness, but retained the sharp pressure wave. I know that no thunder that far away would even reach the Sierra.
I figured big, conventional bombs. But I have no proof. Could have been sonic booms, I guess, which are famously common in rural Nevada. Or... just possibly some chicanery in Area 51, a little further east -- but let's not go there.
The point is that I was feeling significant shock wave, through air, from out in Nevada. And the source had to be a trivial piece of energy compared to an Atomic blast.
Anyhow, that's the experience that made the Atomic Broom seem a real possibility to me. I fully get it about the attenuation of energy of a blast as it spreads in the atmosphere. That only adds, however, to the "shock and awe" of the experience. I know, Peter, I know... But I'm not using language to dress up a theory here, but to try to convey to you guys an odd but repeated experience.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 03:08pm PT
|
This atomic broom theory may also account for the number of Mutant climbers appearing in that area in that time.
-I think we can just take That, as proven.
|
|
Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2008 - 03:13pm PT
|
Yep, darn hard to refute that one.
"Some circumstantial evidence is overwhelming, such as a trout in the milk." -- Thoreau
And the states of consciousness of the mutants, cause or effect?
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 03:30pm PT
|
That's like asking what came first, the waves or the 'cid?
|
|
cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 06:07pm PT
|
The truth can now be told.
We came to this planet to cleanse it of its loose flakes.
During our long, cold voyages between the stars we had often found worlds cluttered with choss, and sensed with our own visual receptors the stunted evolution of lifeforms who had kept well away from the vertical walls, in fear of the tragic, cosmic bane of rockfall.
But here, on your "Earth," we saw that at last the great evolutionary leap that would predispose humans to the vertical world - and subsequent mastery of both themselves and the universe - was on the brink of taking place, and that, as usual, no one guessed its importance.
So we got to work. Operative hybrids such as Einstein, Fermi, Oppenheimer, Robbins, Chouinard, Harding and the rest were emplaced to bring about the desired goals, raising both carbon and strontium ion concentrations and onsighting ability within a few short generations.
Our work here is done. We will return from time to time to check on your progress.
|
|
scuffy b
climber
On the dock in the dark
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2008 - 12:01pm PT
|
which comes first, the colors or the patterns?
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2008 - 12:10pm PT
|
First a light shimmering, followed by subtle patterns.
The colors kick in as the pattern frequency intensifies....
|
|
TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2008 - 06:41pm PT
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_wave
With respect to the ABT, it certainly is going to matter how far away, and how much energy needs to be dissipated.
I think the energy, and therefore the airspeed will decrease by inverse R squared once it decays from supersonic shock wave to just a sonic wave. (That is just my intuition though FWIW, which may not be much.)
Keep in mind also that the wind exerts very little force on cylindrical and spherical objects, compared to "squarer" objects.
The aerodynamic force is a strong function of shape. Sailors often say the "wind sucks" which describes the difference in pressure between the windward and leeward sides of a sail - they often oversimplify as well.
Look at post Hiroshima pictures and note standing telephone poles even quite close to the blast site. Or put a candle behind a beer or wine bottle and blow it out from the other side.
|
|
tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2010 - 03:08am PT
|
Atomic Broom bump
believe it or not this is a decon procedure for troops exposed to tactical nukes during Operation Plumbbob
tactical (i.e., battlefield nukes) test with observers
things didn't always work out as planned...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Plumbbob
|
|
Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2010 - 10:59am PT
|
The atomic broom is, in my opinion, unlikely. That anecdote I would consider more likely a coincidence than a fact, if true.
If you have any doubts, watch this link every day for a few years:
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqscanv/
Every week dozens of earthquakes strike all around California on both sides of the Sierra. Most of these are greater in terms of release of energy than any of the bomb testing.
|
|
tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2010 - 11:50am PT
|
here's evidence that some of the east side earthquakes are really big ones...soft sediment deformation near Mono Lake likely triggered by a large earthquake
|
|
Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2010 - 12:56am PT
|
Could we get this "Atomic Broom" effect going here in the San Juan mountains? It sure would be nice to clean up all of this choss around here! There is so much potential just waiting to be trundled clean. They want to build a uranium processing mill in the Paradox Valley, maybe we could just open it up to atomic detonations instead!
|
|
| Messages 1 - 60 of total 60 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!