Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 16 of total 16 in this topic |
pc
climber
East of Seattle
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 12:02pm PT
|
My $.02 is, maybe a bit but it's mostly technique and equipment improvements.
Look at: swimming, gymnastics, skating, etc. Lots of focus on and refinement of technique. Big advancements.
Ballet, on the other hand, has not seen the kind of improvements other athletic pursuits have because technique has been a focus for so long.
Climbing has clearly benefited from technique and equipment, maybe moreso the latter.
pc
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 12:11pm PT
|
technique, training and equipment are important. there is also an under-rated quality that is not thought about. you know the star trek thing, "to go where no man (or woman) has gone before!"
when you have seen that someone has done something otherwise thought impossible, it is far easier for the next guy to be able to pull it off. look at messner-habeler on mt everest with no O2. they broke a barrier.
the difficult tricks or moves become more mainstream through coaching as well.
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 12:47pm PT
|
Here's an idea: Give a 5.15 sport climber a hemp rope, pair of tennies, a hammer and pins, and a hip belay....Take away their guidebook, and see how hard they climb on comparison to those from the last few decades.
|
|
matisse
climber
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 12:53pm PT
|
Training for sport is relatively recent. In the late 19th and early 20th century for example training for sports was considered unsportsman like. You were just suppposed to show up and let the best man win.
It wasn't until Finish runners, such as Hannes Kolehmainen adopted systematic approaches to training in the 1910’s, and Finish distance runners such as Kolehmainen and Paavo Nurmi dominated distance running at the subsequent Olympic games that training for performance enhancement became widespread.
Its not surprising that people are still improving technical/equipment/doping aside, because now many athletes train full time.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 01:12pm PT
|
Training has improved (old time yosemite climbers hardly trained but partied hard) ...
but Hawkeye's point is very important. Vision and expectation are foundations that keep expanding. 5.9 used to be the hardest grade in the world and it wasn't just sticky rubber in the way.
Peace
karl
|
|
trapeze artemis
climber
Surf City
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 02:23pm PT
|
The equipment Greg Noll used at the time is now considered outdated. Advances in surfboard technology have resulted in faster, lighter more manueverable boards.
In the 60's boards were made of wood and had a single fin.
Nowadays we have fibreglass, close celled foam boards with 3 skegs/fins.
|
|
Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 02:49pm PT
|
I would disagree about ballet: With the new improvisational techniques and software choreography developed by the American ex-patriot William Forsysthe, modern ballet has evolved considerably since WWII. The performances choreographed by Jiri Kylian at the Netherland Dance Theatre also mark a point of departure from classic ballet. Classic ballet, of course, was defined in the salons that Louis XIV supported in the 18th century and has remained much the same. However, to score a 100 in each of the 1500 ballet positions is no mean feat for any athlete. It seems that the kids today - at least the ballet trained modern dancers - are entering into more and more anaerobic territory beyond the limits of ordinary oxygen debt. They're also much, much more physically developed than their predecessors of 50 years ago. Bigger legs, bigger shoulders, stronger abs.
|
|
trapeze artemis
climber
Surf City
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 02:50pm PT
|
There was indeed a radical difference in what was considered proper style and technique in decades past.
Surfing "evolved" along the way with changes in equipment often driving changes in technique and style.
As an example, Simon Anderson's development of the Thruster aka tri fin surfboard drove today's current trend towards aerials and off the lip manuveurs.
|
|
pc
climber
East of Seattle
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 03:08pm PT
|
Bruce, I was referring to the classic ballet where the techniques haven't evolved and are still VERY hard to master and very few ever truly do.
I agree with you on modern dance/ballet.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 03:44pm PT
|
"The participants most want to be admired by their peers in the sport. "
have you ever been involved in a sport that did not involve running off at the mouth?
just curious.
as a climber i didnt want most ot be admired by my peers. i wanted to explore the beauty around me. i wanted to have fun.
having fun is first and foremost fun to getting anyone involved in a sport. those who are breaking barriers probably dont really need lesser athletes admiration.
|
|
Colt
climber
Midpines
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 03:53pm PT
|
Optimum or statistical opportunity also plays a role. The longer a sport/ activity has been around the greater the number of pursuers of the activity there have been. The greater the number of pursuers the more likely someone with greater genetic, mental, and technical capabilities will to pursue the activity to their potential.
Some further thought is that optimum opportunity in combination with refinement of techniques, diet, training methodologies, mental strategies, etc., lead to advancements in athletic performance. A sport like track, which has been around for a relatively long time, is now seeing very slight increases. Notably, advancements in track are relatively easy to recognize as they are timed, nothing subjective (climbing ratings, judged sports), and events have been largely universally recognized for some time (100m, 200M, 400M, etc.). Therefore, a conclusion could be made, that most track event world records are good representations of something close to current human capacity. Where that capacity actually is will never be know exactly...but we can always get half a step closer!
|
|
Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 04:36pm PT
|
Lois, I can attest to the mental 'blocks' comment made by Kevin, the improvement in equipment, and building on the foundation set by earlier generations all of which I watched in the late 60’s and early 70’s.
In the late 60s in Yosemite, the really hard free climbs were unprotected off widths such as 'Doom' and 'Ahab.' It was a specialized skill set and everyone had to fiddle with driving in pitons and climbing in lug soled shoes. And, at least in Yosemite, pretty much nobody worked out--"I'm no athlete, I'm a rock climber"--to paraphrase the famous baseball qoute. The 'hardest' climbs were natural extensions of previuos hardest climbs in a fairly slow process of incremental changes. Another element relied on folks really pushing the 'no fear' limits, such as Peter Haan climbing the ‘Hourglass’ free--still mind bending boldness without big cams.
Then in the 70s, new smooth soled shoes and nuts came in to use--the shoes were more secure and placing nuts was a one handed job allowing you to hold on with the other hand. The ratings shot up.
During that time, probably for social reasons, the Valley flooded with lots of really young climbers who didn't know that climbing was hard. They didn't start at the bottom and work up; they started at the top and kept going. And they worked much harder as a group than any earlier group.
"Astroman" by Kauk, John Bachar and John Long made a clean break with the older generation—we could see it, but they just roped up and climbed it. Ron Kauk's roof climb "Separate Reality" probably finally scraped off the entire older generation. Older climbers didn't have a clue. We just stood in the dirt and watched the future recede in front of us, rolling up any patch that we might have crawled along to keep up. It happens to every good climber in every generation.
Then cams came into general use, along with sport and gym climbing, and lots more climbers build on that generation's achievements.
I think that some of the best climbers from those earlier years would likely be among the best climbers today, if this were their time. But it is not clear. The motivations and the styles are different--although these change more slowly than the skill sets and equipment improvements--so it might have been a different mix of climbers from the past that would be equal to the best today. Some examples of this are the premium then on boldness to accomplish hard climbs, which is not so necessary today. Another example is the sense of adventure that drove many then which is not so prevalent today.
Roger
|
|
blackbird
Trad climber
over yonder en th' holler
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 06:03pm PT
|
Ditto happie and pc; I'm a huge proponent (I spelled
that wrong, too, but at this point in the day/week I simply don't care!) of technique.
There used to be a group of folks in the NORBA races around this region who started riding in and winning races on bikes with banana seats, baskets and handlebar tassels (you know, the single gear type we used to ride as kids) simply to prove a point: it isn't about the cost of your bike or how many bells and whistles it has, it's all about training and technique. Equipment helps, and even provides an edge to a point, but there most certainly is a line of demarkation where, if you don't have the technique and haven't put in the time to train, you simply will not move beyond a certain point. That little mental "umph" makes a difference, too...!
BB
|
|
bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 08:24pm PT
|
one word, people. SWOLE.
|
|
426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 09:55pm PT
|
I don't think a hemp rope or poor gear would hinder a 5.15 climber much. I say this because I've been privy to more than one 5.14 climber strolling up yesterday's 5.12 and even 13 "testpieces"...
Simon Nadin fell on the last move of Star Walls crack onsight, armed with only nuts. I watched LeMenestral (talk about impeccable technique..) pretty much hike the whole Roadcut (all 12c-13b) onsight in an afternoon. And that was in the 90's!
Bachar was one of the first Americans to actually train hard, but as a whole, Americans are weaker because we don't "put in the work" like a Dani Andrada or other euros.
Someone like Gullich really stands out to me as an example of "beyond their time". 14d in early 90's speaks for itself.
There will be kids who will hike "today's" testpieces, is my prediction.
|
|
feelio Babar
Trad climber
Sneaking up behind you...
|
|
|
Aug 15, 2007 - 10:20pm PT
|
We all stand on the shoulders of the generation before us.
I see little punk kids doing kick-heel flips...while texting...f*#kers.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 16 of total 16 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!