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Standing Strong
Trad climber
real eyes realize real life
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 18, 2007 - 12:32am PT
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first of all, ekat if it's not okay for me to post your post just holla @ your girl. i'll take it down.
okay, now guys. what do you think about the half dome cables? i agree that it would be a good idea to move them over... except what do you do when THAT rock gets worn? can you put it back in the other spot since it would have been exposed to mechanical weathering for a long time, then keep switching?
OR would it be a good idea to remove them altogther?
there is also anastasia's idea about clipping IN. the only thing i see w/that is how do you deal with the liability of instructing / ensuring it's being done properly? or maybe it would be better to make people take the responsibility of doing it themselves?
and if you do clip in, how do you do it so it doesn't kill your internal organs if you DO fall? i believe there is a thread about this where - ricardo i think? - gave a great suggestion on how to do it properly....
what are everyone's thoughts on this?
and here's eKaterianaCallerinaCoolita's idea:
"Great Scott!
I've started this post THREE TIMES and deleted all of them. . . .
First off:
Peace to the family and friends of the departed.
AND. . .
This might not be the best place to say this. . . but. . .
THOSE CABLES NEED TO BE MOVED!
All that would have to be done is to move ONE cable three feet to the right or the left of the other one. . . so FRESH rock was in the path.
AND. . .
LIMIT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ALLOWED *UP* THERE PER DAY! (would be hard to limit the number of downclimbers, though, considering. . . the obvious. . . )
Pretty simple!
For cry-y-y-y-y-y-y--y-yy-ing out loud!
The permit system works all over the world!
The crowds create FRICKING HAVOC!
Please - somebody make some changes!
If that takes people, such as myownself, to become active in this change, then SO BE IT. . . let's figure out a way to put the magic back into the cables on Half Dome!
They lost their magic many, many years ago and nobody's taken the time to tell the rest of the world how bad the whole thing is!
We're a smart group. . . maybe we can instigate change.
Maybe we should MAKE A DIFFERENCE!
?
eKatBeenThereIt'sNotAPrettySight!"
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
real eyes realize real life
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 12:42am PT
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might be good for YM"go*climb*a*rock*S but what about broke people who should also be able to experience the summit?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:46am PT
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Plenty of broke people summit Half Dome.
We call these broke people "DirtBags" and they are keeping a fine mountaineering tradition.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
real eyes realize real life
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 12:48am PT
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why *shouldn't* they?
grand views in nature commonly inspire people to achieve higher summits in life.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:49am PT
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Moved my post from the other thread, where it was off-topic:
===
Blinny, what problem are you trying to solve?
Prevent deaths? We don't know what happened, and the route may have had nothing to do it. Don't let facts get in the way of your passion!
And what is this obsession with trying to change nature to make things sufficiently convenient for us?
There is only one Half-Dome. You want to drill a whole bunch of more holes in it, to make it more convenient?
Why not rely on personal responsibility, something Americans often don't believe in! Like, you have to have climbing shoes and clip-in set-up. You could rent the things like a bowling alley. You could have optional classes. Perhaps provide some income for *climbers*. This would be a great opportunity for wilderness education.
However, to think that it will make things faster is ridiculous. Hundreds of people who have never handled gear, fumbling while in fear of their lives? Yeah, that is why protected climbing is so much faster than free climbing. (NOT)
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:54am PT
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um.. what did I miss? did something happen?
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Jude Bischoff
Ice climber
Palm Springs
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:03am PT
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People like to walk outside the cables to avoid the slow pokes. That is where many of the accidents happen. There seems to be more this year than ever before.
I agree with Ken M. on the respect of personal responsibility.
Yosemite Mountaineering could get an income stream from guiding tourists up the cables for a fee and renting the proper clip in Via Ferrata system. Post guides and gear at the base of the cables.
It's a blessing people have to earn their way to the top and they have not touristed it out with a tram and restaurant.
Locker's new income stream: The 5 minute resole at the base of the cables using pine pitch and sticky rubber.
Edit
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 01:05am PT
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oh for crying out loud. yea, let's make it something only the ones who can pay for guiding and all that crap (mainly middle class white folks) can afford.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:10am PT
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A good question, even to us non-yosies. I think that the question to answer first is whether it's main designation is historical, or a maintainable fixture. Although the cable route is certainly both, its moving (or changing) cannot be decided upon until the "powers that be" decide (public input period?) what the cable route represents to Yosemite and the National Park Service. One could argue that it's removal gets rid of a reocurring hazard and that the safety of the public outweighs the benefits that it may bring.
Closing caves, restricting geyser zones, pulling vintage buses from service, and "retiring" fixtures happens on a routine basis; and, generally, the public forgets shortly thereafter.
My question to the forum: How does the removal hurt climbers ? For instance, is it the "standard" descent, the only descent, or just the fastest descent for Half Dome routes?
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 01:20am PT
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i can't think irghte now. plus "foreigners" teach us cool stuff :)
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:26am PT
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(Copy paste from other thread)
I was told that no one ever perished on the cables simply due to falling (i.e. no medical or severe weather issues) till about a year ago. Is this correct?
The cables are a route. In fact, they (in modified form) are one of the first big rock routes in Yosemite.
From Roper:
"The first ascent of the dome was made by George Anderson in October 1875. By drilling holes for ludicrously large iron spikes, he was able to work his way up the 46 degree slope of the east face. Today an excellent trail winds its way eight miles to the base of this face; cables then lead to the summit. The face can be climbed without using the cables (class 5)."
When you climb the cables, you are in that moment a climber, IMO. It's a big deal for a lot of people to take on both the physical and mental challenge of it.
If you want "regular people" to respect our choices to rope up or not as climbers, maybe we need to respect their choices on the cables too.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 01:34am PT
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anotha copy/pate from thread other one:
"The cables are a route. In fact, they (in modified form), are one of the first big rock routes in Yosemite."
oh. i stand corected. thank you : )
and yea, i agree on the respect thang...
okay doodz. peac eout,
t*R :)
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 01:35am PT
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" '(mainly middle class white folks)'...
and up...
sad but true... "
yea... it's dumb. let's think about it l8tr, 2 depress 4 now.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:59am PT
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More go down than up.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2007 - 02:01am PT
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like cartwheeling off? LOL
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 18, 2007 - 02:01am PT
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I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that it's good that we're discussing it. For the simple reason that NPS risk and land managers may be discussing this, and we'd better be ready to respond. Whatever they might do would affect us.
There are many factors to consider - cost, history, access, safety, and so on. But it seems to me that climbers and hikers have much the same interest here - the vast majority would probably prefer something like the status quo, perhaps with modest changes. Those might include rerouting the cables, having an "up" and a "down" lane, more safety oriented signage, adding steps, or setting it so a via ferrata setup can be used. (Rentals at mountain shop, naturally.)
The NPS managers have to balance many factors, and might rather not do anything. It would take a lot of study and discussion and public input, media scrutiny, and maybe even lawsuits, before they made any change. They probably track usage and accidents fairly closely, and those are key factors in deciding whether to look at this, or do anything.
I hiked up and down Half Dome for the first time ever on a Saturday last September. I've never done anything quite like it - a real via ferrata. It was astonishing and sometimes frightening to see what was going on.
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pro_alien
Sport climber
Zurich, Switzerland
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Jun 18, 2007 - 02:21am PT
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There are many "via ferrata" routes in Europe. They generally require the use of proper gear (Y lanyard). Most of them are designed so the traffic only goes in one direction (e.g. go down by a hiking trail).
For a heavily visited route like the Half Dome cables, I think the only safe solution would be to have double cables (up and down), and require the use of Y lanyards. With a little creative metalwork double cables should not require double holes.
And of course a sign that says
You
Will
DIE!
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pro_alien
Sport climber
Zurich, Switzerland
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Jun 18, 2007 - 06:54am PT
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Lanyards like in http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportConseils?Conseil=45&Activite=28
They include an energy absorber (e.g. rope passing through a special plate) to limit the peak load when falling onto a hard anchor point (there is no dynamic rope to limit the shock load, so the impact force would otherwise be dissipated by the weakest link, the human body).
Tried a via ferrata in Switzerland once. Mildly entertaining, I will stick to climbing for real entertainment. Still, if you want to get a bunch of tourons up and down a rock in relative safety, this is the way to go.
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eeh
climber
East Side
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:03pm PT
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I hiked Half Dome a few years when I had very few rock climbs under my belt and didn't find it very scary or dangerous. If a hiker gets to the base of the cables and doesn't feel confident to go all the way, well, then they should just turn around. Why does everything in national parks have to be accessable to abosolutely every goober and gaper out there? Those cables have been there a long time and there have been very few injuries that I am aware of. It's just like crossing the road - you might get hit by a car so if you aren't willing to take the risk, don't cross the road.
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