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Climber 46
Social climber
Ottawa, Ontario
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 23, 2007 - 06:22pm PT
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I currently own Metolius adjustables, but have climbed about sixty pitches on them and I find that they are starting to slip
occasionally. I'm thinking that the Yates look bomber with the big buckle and I'd love to know if anyone out there has tried both. Opinions please!
Cheers,
Doug
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Alan Doak
climber
boulder, co
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Jan 23, 2007 - 07:02pm PT
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Take a close look at your metolius adjustable aiders, and you'll probably find that they're only rated to 300lbs or so. REI's website says 1.3 kNewtons, which is 292 lbs.
3 years ago my roomate, Nick Martino, took a daisy fall on a new one of them while on El Cap (NA wall?), causing it to snap and sending him on a 60 footer.
Instead of changing the design from flat webbing to tubular, they just told people not to take a daisy fall on them.
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ZAllen
Social climber
the dirty south
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Jan 23, 2007 - 07:40pm PT
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Always good advice to avoid the daisy fall.
Where exactly did it snap? Got any pictures?
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roy
Social climber
New Zealand -> Santa Barbara
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Jan 23, 2007 - 09:03pm PT
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Hi,
I've used both. My first were the Metolius adjustables which have now started to fuzz. And that 300 lb breaking strength rating always made me a bit nervous. So I switched to the Yates; 5 times the rated strength. And snapped the shiny new Yates on the second pitch out.
Ok, it was definitely pilot error. I was using a two daisy system and had weighted my top piece before clipping the rope into my lower piece. As I leaned down to do so, the top piece blew and I fell onto the bottom one. I had a bit of slack, from crouching down, so the fall was about four feet onto the daisy. Hardly a jolt as it snapped. It took my brain a few seconds to realize why my aider was way up there unconnected to anything else.
As you can see, it went right at those sharp buckle teeth. In retrospect I'm glad it blew rather than me having to take the impact on my kidneys.
In terms of ease of use, I like the Metolius. It's easier to extend the daisy with a single move. The Yates requires you to push the buckle and pull the webbing at the same time. Tricky to do with one hand and you will frequently find yourself using two. And if you fall on either of them they will snap in a flash.
Cheers, Roy
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Jan 23, 2007 - 09:23pm PT
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The Metolius are a lot more convienient. Don't fall on either of them though, that's not what they are for...
I wouldn't buy the Yates again.
Falling onto a daisy generates unsafe impact force, it's actually better they break. I'd rather soar 60' into air than drop 6' on a daisy.
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joebuzz
Trad climber
Truckee, CA.
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Jan 23, 2007 - 11:55pm PT
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I use a homemade rig that's worked well for me. Just a strand of 7-8 mil. cord and a Yate's "Ropeman". I still have a couple of standard BD daisy's for backup, one on each aider but the Ropeman does all the work. I feel the cord is way beefier than than webbing and you can change it out anytime you want for a couple of $'s. I'm no hardman, but this system has seen 100's of pitches over the years and works great.
OK, just thinking about it I don't actually remember if the Ropeman is a Yates prod. or not just so I don't get flamed.
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Jan 24, 2007 - 12:56am PT
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I always liked the Yates adjustable daisy. I found it very smooth for moving up on delicate placements. Plus, the new buckle doesn't slip like the old Ancra buckles did. But I think it has actually been 8-10 years since they adopted the "new" buckle, so I guess it's not that new. And, although it is not a great idea, I have successfully taken daisy falls on the Yates with no problems. Your mileage may vary.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jan 24, 2007 - 01:23am PT
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Can anybody with direct experience compare Fish's adjustable daisies to the Yates and or Metolius?
Danke!
Bill
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 24, 2007 - 01:53am PT
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These ones are quite nice, and don't seem to need to be adjusted at all.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Jan 24, 2007 - 08:07am PT
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daisy adjuster
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Jan 24, 2007 - 10:58am PT
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"Can anybody with direct experience compare Fish's adjustable daisies to the Yates and or Metolius?"
I've got one of each the Yates and Fish. I had two Fish ones, but I lent them to some stoners who packed one deep amongst their sh#t. So they drove all the way to Jtree and back to get me a Yates replacement rather than unpack. Stoners.
I also have a pair of metolius, but they never inspired enough confidence for me to actually climb with them.
Fish vs. Yates:
Webbing:
Fish: 1" tubular climb spec that is extra smooth.
Yates: 1" flat that binds up a little more, but works fine.
Buckle:
Identical.
Free end:
Fish: Sewn end that is just fine for grabbing and yarding on.
Yates: Sewn on rap ring that is a hair mroe friendly. Karl baba has espoused a scheme he uses where he puts his aiders on this thing to pull himself up. Still don't see the utility.
Girth Hitch:
Fish: Like a foot long girth hitch. I hate it. I cut it off and resewed into a shorter loop. Basically it'll force the need for a fifi in the second step. You can also do two wraps, but that still sucks.
Yates: Shorty girth hitch lets you cinch right up to your harness
Length:
Fish: Damn long. Never run out of reach length yet.
Yates: 54", I often fully extend it and it's barely long enough for me (I'm only 5'9")
Clip in:
Fish: simple dogbone style works fine.
Yates: Adds extra touch of rolling and sewing the very end to make it narrower. Nice touch, but isn't a big deal either way.
If I had to go buy another right now it would probably be the Yates, just becuase of the stupidly long girth hitch loop on the Fish.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jan 24, 2007 - 11:10am PT
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Metolius adj. aiders and yates adj. daisy's. The metolius do wear out quickly. I found running all those buckles a pain in the ass, so keeping it to 2 buckles and 2 metolius slider dowhapees splits the clusterfrekage for me. the metoilus are preferred for easy one hand opening. Falling on that sh#t is not a smart option a freind fell on his lower daisy and broke/ tore some ribs. If you're testing keep the slack out of the system. Once on the top piece get the daisy off the bottom one ASAP. I did fall while hooking once and a hook on my yates daisy caught a bolt as I was falling past it. Quick stop but nothing broke, equipment or me.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Jan 24, 2007 - 12:46pm PT
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I use the Ropeman grabs (Wild Country BTW)on locking ovals with 7mm Purcell prusiks for adjustability. No aid here, but they're great for jugging.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Jan 24, 2007 - 12:54pm PT
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Moof: stupidly long girth hitch loop on the Fish.
hmmmm...... the girth loop is sized to go around the leg loop and through the harness, and then leave a small loop for a waist clip in. Not sure how you are doing it..... Seems to work in my set up but I'll look into it.
Normally we don't use ClimbSpec tubular. We use a flat aider webbing as the standard. You can ask for either as each has its advantages and disadvantages.
We sell a replacement piece of webbing so you can honk away on your adjustable and then just pop some new webbing in there when it gets all manky and starts slipping. You can buy the FISH Adj Dasiy with the extra webbing for $19.00. The Yates is $20.00 with no extra webbing. YMMV
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jan 24, 2007 - 12:59pm PT
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WRT safety, anyone who takes a 60 ft fall because of a broken adjustable daisy definitely didn't READ THE F'IN WARNINGS that came with the device that it's not a full-strength daisy and shouldn't be trusted as such. I keep hearing about people doing this, and I don't understand why people keep expecting the adjustables to be full-strength despite the clear warning label that says they're not???
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 24, 2007 - 01:03pm PT
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1. Adjustable daisies are not very strong, and will break as Christian points out. I've busted too many. One such break resulted in a serious but avoidable injury to me. I was not as smart as Forest above. However I lived to tell the tale, and am a bit smarter now.
2. I used to recommend Metolius adjustables, because with the D-ring configuration they just won't slip, even when worn. What happened with me and my injury is that I used them LONG after I should have retired them, they became ratty and failed. Stupid me. They are also much harder to operate, especially on traverses, but not too bad if you are not too much of a spaz. Note: I am somewhat of a spaz, but still manage to wobble up walls. If you are more of a spaz than me, you probably don't belong on a big wall!
3. I have not tried Fish's, but would if he sent me a pair.
4. I use John Yates' adjustables. They are fairly strong and beefy with a buckle that doesn't slip initially.
Here's the thing - when the buckle DOES start to slip, you had best replace them immediately as they are substantially weakened and are close to breaking. I have broken one or two of Yates' to my considerable surprise!
Yates also makes them with built-in Screamers, but of course you only get one chance with that. I believe the length of Screamer also reduces the amount you can pull yourself up.
Yates says 70 pitches - I say that much only if you're lucky. I am more of a big wall camper than a big wall climber [but still a big wall parvenu, though better than a marriage parvenu] so I tend to really use the things a lot, and 70 pitches of actual climbing for me means 100 pitches or more of useage since I'm crawling along on the anchor.
REPLACE YOUR ADJUSTABLE DAISIES OFTEN! They are a critical link, and not that expensive!
There is great merit to backing up your adjustable daisy with a regular strong daisy. I think there is also tremendous merit to using a Ropeman or similar device as Joe Buzz suggests above. I might switch to this actually.
I use my adjustable fifi only on the steep and strenuous hard stuff. You don't need it on A1 or A2, and sometimes not even on A3. It's superb for fine-tuning your top-stepping on steep and hard aid.
Thanks to Doug for everything you've done for me, mate!
Cheers from Florida,
Pete
[back home Monday]
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Jan 24, 2007 - 01:16pm PT
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after 3 pitches, i gave my yates to my SO to jug w/ and went back to my old fashioned ones. i loved the ability to ratchet up on pieces, but w/ the yates girth loop, the only way i could figure to rig it was on the belay loop. didn't seem like a good plan to me, and recent events seem to validate that thought process.
Fish, sounds like yours have taken this into account, if i'm understanding this correctly? big loop so i can girth it to waste and legs, correct?
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Climber 46
Social climber
Ottawa, Ontario
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2007 - 01:20pm PT
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Hey all,
Thanks for your opinions!
Pete, you lucky SOB down in sunny country.
Cheers,
Doug
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jan 24, 2007 - 01:35pm PT
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I don't think Adjustable daisies should be used nor treated as a critical piece. I've actualyl gone so far as to rig mine up with full-strength daises hooked to each one and my tie-in loops. It's a bit more cordage to deal with, but i don't have to worry about much more than a foot or two extra fall if one of the adjustables breaks.
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