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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Apr 22, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
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Couldn't agree more Pete.....Chief, you nailed it.....one of the best posts in the entire thread.
The hypocrisy of this whole thing is a pathetic joke.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 22, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
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the new definition of "clean climbing".....have the NPS clean up your mess after spewing about a rapp bolted climb.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 22, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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Anyone with an open mind at all could see Sean was fully capable of doing the climb ground up. He chose to rap bolt to create the best climb for future climbers and not put a bunch of extra holes in Half Dome.
Rap bolting half dome was wrong in a lot of our opinions but creating the best route is a far different motivation than money (haha, like climbing ever made an American much money) or noteriety (how many FAs does he have already?)
I'm pretty disgusted by a lot of people I used to have respect for. I think it's great to preserve respect and admiration for the traditional ground up style, but the personal attacks and claiming you know someone elses motivation are LAME and detract from what should be a thoughtful presentation of your opinions, which could actually influence people rather than just turn them off.
Sean was more than forthcoming on the other thread about the gear left up there that he paid to have removed and was screwed over on. What about the other stuff he cleaned up that was already there? I guess that doesn't matter when you are just looking for reasons to attack.
When you are on your death bed are you going to be more proud of the fact that you were an as#@&%e and protected an unclimbed line for some possible future ascent that conforms to your prefered style or that you had positive, productive relationships with your fellow brothers?
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Apr 22, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
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Pretty cool to know that all the rad sh#t was done 20+ years ago...sure takes the pressure off of us young folks...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 22, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
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atch.
clean climbing old guy leaves trashed out camp in Yosemite wilderness....thats what this is about.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Apr 22, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
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I posted some of this on the other back of Half Dome thread, but it bears repeating...
This same issue of leaving crap on routes/at the base happened not long ago on Mt. Watkins. I went up there only to discover piles of fixed, rotting ropes, haul bags that had turned to dust in the sun and piles of animal-scavenged food. All clearly (in my opinion so don't rag) the leftovers from people trying to free stuff.
What is more important:
A name in the magazines that will help keep your sponsorship?
Preserving our planet for our children's children?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
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Hawkeye, are there photos/link to a new story? I haven't heard or read about the trash issue.
This is precisely why the trash debacle deserves its own thread.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Apr 22, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
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In the age of YouTube and FaceSpray (whoops, I mean FaceBook) this point of view may seem dated, but I find all of the explaining about the trash left at the base of the south face to be insufficient rationalizing. Talk of sponsors, paying others to clean up trash, half-million dollar homes, 1300 ft. of fixed line abandoned at the base, are all so far out of my realm of climbing experience that I just cannot empathize.
Maybe it's just because I'm average . . .
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 22, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
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One of Werner's first posts on this thread, still gets me busting every time I read it!
OMFG ..... I think Walt's coming out of the ground.
The fuking end is here for sure, eeeeeaaahhhhhh eeerrrggghhh!
Huh?
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 22, 2010 - 03:01pm PT
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Why do I get the feeling that half of what went on up there with the trash isn't even what's being discussed. It sure seems to me a number of people are assuming what went on, offering their opinion about it, and then proliferating the untruths.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
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Nobody reads the last post on a page
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
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It's important to note that climbing ranger Jesse M posted info on the trash in another thread
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=838578&tn=100
it's worth knowing that two folks were cited and received their punishment humbly.
It's something that they paid somebody to do what they couldn't at the time. It's something that they got friends to do part of it. They could have been better about how the trash went down, but as long as people are doing big projects with fixed lines a long hike from the trailhead, they will sometimes get forced to leave by weather and circumstances before removing them. Perhaps that means they shouldn't do that? You decide. I don't do it. That said, the sacred Southern Belle had lines fixed on it for some time as well if I remember correctly.
Peace
Karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 22, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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I do Karl.
.......I read the last post on a page.......
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 22, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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i think that the damning thing is an article in the rags, from the clean climbing old guy with no mention of the crap left behind. nore was there any mention in this thread earlier...of course that would have incited the troops to really froth a tthe mouth. rapp-bolting and trashing the place all in one thread.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 22, 2010 - 04:59pm PT
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as cool as karl wants to be, he has a hardon for bolted lines..
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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Personally, I've placed about two bolts in Yosemite. I've done a lot more R rated climbs than sport climbs. I just don't have a problem with this one and have stated why on this thread.
Wasn't saying Coz left a mess up there, just that if you leave fixed lines up and the weather goes to hell or mom gets sick, you could be stuck with a mess that you might try to hire someobody else to clean up
Peace
Karl
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 22, 2010 - 06:35pm PT
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Just noticed this but have barely skimmed.
Yes, we left some trash.
There was miscommunication between us about who was packing out what.
I am quite humiliated.
Yes, we acknowledged it to Jesse and his crew.
Tried to go up and pack it out myself, but they already had.
Yes, we were fined and we paid.
I'm off to pick up my daughter at school and am busy after.
I'll be back tomorrow to consider your comments and respond.
Doug
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
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I already spoke about the trash issue.
As for the route, I'm tolerant of a bunch of different styles. I personally appreciate when people put up routes with a view toward stoking out other people instead of saving time and money or having their own personal adventure at the expense of those in the future.
As it stands, it seems to hardly matter except in our minds. Southern Belle has had about 3 or 4 ascents in 20 years and nobody is going to do Growing Up even though supposedly safer and stellar. Is it the Hiking? That's what a hardman who I tried to talk into going up there (not with me) said.
We just like to be dyed-in-the-world traditionalists. Guess what, the next generation will decide, so it's good folks have stated their case here for future reference
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
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I know it's a long thread Chief but DR has written extensively about many of these issues in this thread when it was still news. How many times does a guy have to explain himself?
Peace
karl
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