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Aya
Uncategorizable climber
New York
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Oct 20, 2006 - 12:08am PT
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I love tricams more than anything. I even made myself a t-shirt to proclaim my love.
Those pics are fantastic - I love seeing all the "old" gear (though I hate to use that word!)
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2006 - 07:38pm PT
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Ron, that's a great story. Can I use it when we introduce the _ _s?
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2006 - 08:14pm PT
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Do you have a pecture (Freudian slip?) of that T-shirt, Aya? Reminds me I have a T-shirt somewhere that someone sent me a long time ago with a poem on the the back, titled "Ode to a Pink Tri-Cam". It was a real clever poem. I'l try to find it, and post the verse.
-Jeff
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 20, 2006 - 08:20pm PT
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Well, thought I'd chime in - a break from less fun stuff going on elsewhere on ST.
There is a "Pink TriCam Webpage" - at http://www.swarpa.net/~danforth/climb/sinkthepink.html
It includes "Ode to a Pink Tricam", and is by Charles "Pinky" Danforth.
Jeff: Just as Camp 4 may be the only campsite in the world to have a book named after it, possibly the pink tricam is the only piece of climbing equipment in the world to have its own poem.
Anders
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2006 - 08:40pm PT
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Amazing!!!
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Oct 25, 2006 - 11:33am PT
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Jeff-
I was going thorugh some notes, looking for some big wall info for a friend, and came across one of my references for the gear history article I wrote for Ascent. From Yuri Koshelenko:
"Dear John. Here is what I've found about Abalakov's devices. First, all the people I've asked says that Abalakov had the working examples BEFORE his trip in America. Second, Anatoly V. Nepomnyashchy said me that you can find in the American Alpine Journal the article with the photos of Abalakov's devices and other info. (Volume 20. Namber 2. issue 50. 1976 A SOVIET FIRST ASCENT IN THE NORTH CASCADES. Alex Bertulis Pages 340-344.) Yuri Koshelenko."
But now I see that though it is often claimed, there really isn't any definitive proof that the Russian cams predated Greg's.
Unless a Russian climber would like to comment...?
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Oct 25, 2006 - 11:43am PT
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Jello,
Very cool post. Thank you.
Ken
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2006 - 12:23pm PT
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John-
I can see how that correspondence would have confused you. Abalokov DID have cams (of a sort - not true constant-angle) when he came to the US in '75. That's because I had given him a spring-loaded and a passive cam, in 1974, when I was in the Pamirs. It really was clear to me in '74 that he had no inkling of cams or constant angles in rock climbing protection, before I carefully and at some length explained them to him, and answered his questions, through an interpreter at the mountineering camp he was hosting.
I doubt any real evidence will surface to disprove this explanation of the genesis.
The other thing I thought was wrong in your gear history, was your characterization of the LURP tent as somehow inferior in engineering or design to the later portaledges, such as your own. That's not at all true. In fact just the opposite. The LURP had a tensioning system that created a more rigid floor, the floor itself was non-stretch dacron sailcloth, and featured a zippered "poop chute", and the built in fly was weatherproof on its' own in snowy conditions, and with a lightweight 1.1 oz coated rainfly, was completely waterproof in a downpoor. A two-person single-point suspension hanging tent with these features, weighing less than 8lbs. This was a developed in '69 and '70. It was fully functional. Greg used it on the first winter ascent of the nw face of Halfdome, in 1972, and a couple years later I used it on a 9-day, unsuccessful attempt on the se face of the Moose's Tooth. John Ruger and I were trapped in a big slushy storm, over 2000' up, for 5 days on that one. We stayed perfectly dry and comfortable. My reason for this post is just to set the record straight. I'll have a little chapter in my book on the subject.
I want to thank you again, though for making those titanium frame ledges for Catherine and me to use on Trango, in 1990. They were great! I still have mine.
Note to Ken : thanks!
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2006 - 12:54pm PT
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Here's a pic looking out of the LURP, at John Ruger. Moose's Tooth, mid '70's. John later became a member of the US Olympic Biathalon Team.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Oct 25, 2006 - 02:08pm PT
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Hi Jeff-
I can't recall inferring that the LURP tent was inferior, since I had never seen one in person, but I may have suggested that the later designs were improvments from the initial concepts of a hanging tent platform. The original article is here:
http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/mechadv/index.html
As far as I know, the LURP tent was never commercially available, even though it was advertised in the magazines--is this correct?
One thing that's pretty clear about the portaledges I designed and manufactured in the 80's and 90's is that the availability of a strong, truly weatherproof ledge resulted in a huge explosion of big wall routes in remote places. Virtually every major big wall expedition in the 90's used the A5 portaledge for their bivy, typified by the first ascent of Escudo by Brad Jarrett and team, the first major new big wall route climbed in Patagonia without fixed ropes.
I always liked this photo with Jared Ogden on the North Face of Nameless, which typified the new capabilities of big wallers in the 90's:
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Oct 25, 2006 - 03:42pm PT
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Jeff, thanks for a great thread.
I'm lucky enough to own two of your early spring loaded cams. They were just one of your many great contributions to this sport.
For those of you who would like a good read of Jeff's trip to the Pamirs in 1974, read Robert Craig's "Storm and Sorrow in the High Pamirs". It's one of the best expedition books I have read. Quite a harrowing experience.
If it's too big, I'll resize it
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2006 - 04:23pm PT
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John-
Here is the passage from your history of gear article:
"Vertical shelters have been the most recent advance in equipment for the most extreme multi-day routes. Evolving from the Warren Harding's BAT (Basically Absurd Technology) hammock that could be anchored from a single point, the LURP (Limited Use of Reasonable Placements) tent was developed by Greg Lowe in 1974. Though lightweight, BAT hammocks were cramped and forced the inhabitant to lean against the wall, which in a storm ran with cold water. The precursor to the modern portaledge, the LURP tent solved the problem by adding a solid aluminum frame around the bed, keeping the inhabitants away from the wall. During its use on the first winter ascent of the Northwest Face of Half Dome, heavy winds and snow were comfortably survived for the first time in the history of big wall climbing. However, it was initially considered a specialized tool rarely worth the weight, and never made it past the prototype stage."
You say the LURP was invented in 1974. That's not correct, it was invented in 1969. It would have been difficult for Greg and Rob Kiesel to use it on the winter ascent of Half Dome, which they did in 1972, if the LURP had not yet existed..haha! You imply that the LURP was heavy when you say "...it was initially considered a specialized tool rarely worth the weight...". John, it was lighter than even your titanium ledges, with the fly! You're right, though, that climbers didn't immediately line up to buy them. Wasn't our fault people couldn't envision the possibilities for a while. Kind of the same as with the early LAS cams. The LURP was offered in 1972, through a catalog from SNUG Mountaineering out of Ketchum, Idaho. SNUG (now called the Elephant's Perch) was Rob Keisel's shop. Two or three LURPS were sold over the period of a few years, each one slightly different. I think Ian Wade bought one for Patagonia that was made of super-heavy-duty pack cloth, to withstand the screaming winds down there. I can't remember if he used it. All-in-all, I think your article paints an innacurate picture of hanging tent development, although I am impressed by how much work and good info you squeezed into the piece. I always wondered, though, why you never bothered to contact Greg or myself, to vet the cam and LURP info? If I can find that old SNUG catalog, I'll post it up.
Cheers,
-Jeff
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Oct 25, 2006 - 07:47pm PT
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Hi Jeff-
I think I did discuss gear with Greg back then, and I remember talking with you too at one of the Trade Shows. Was it George who was telling a group of us of a great prototype ledge which had a round shape? And then you walked up and told us how wretched it was on the wall!
In terms of cams, after reviewing the literature and talking with some of the Russian climbers, I came to the conclusion that Abalokov had developed the cam independently, and earlier. Maybe that was incorrect.
Regarding ledge development, I'm always interested in hearing more, but I think I covered all the main points in that article. But the theme of the article was a focus on the tools that influenced the rise in standards, not necessarily the history of gear itself. Certainly the history of portaledges could be an article on its own, for some future gear historian.
My statement that ledges were not considered worth the weight is based on my own early big wall experience, most of which nights were spent suffering in hammocks. The attitude back then was that nighttime suffering was better than hauling extra weight. Maybe it was because the canvas haulbags that we used would have exploded with the extra pounds. When Gramicci and Fig started making ledges available, they were initially considered a luxury, not a necessity. That attitude changed rapidly in the early 80's, however.
I'd stand by my statement because though a few climbers used submarine ledges in the mid to late 70's, most routes during that era were climbed without any sort of hanging ledge.
In general, I thought my article inferred Greg as the innovator of modern portaledges with the LURP design(before their time sort of thing), even though there is some evidence that platforms were used on some routes prior.
cheers-
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2006 - 08:12pm PT
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Deuce-
You didn't speak to any of the factual innacuracies I pointed out in your article. Seems strange to me you won't address my points. But nevermind, I'll just straighten out the record in my book. Overall, I think your article was very good.
Best,
-JL
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Nov 18, 2007 - 01:18am PT
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RO and the rest. I actually held and used a real fancam and the concept kicks ass. The ones that Lowe Alpine (waaaaay post-Jeff and Greg) in the '90's were FanCams in name only. The patent is super secret, so secret in fact that you can find it (maybe) on the USPTO site. If it's not there any more you may find right next to that rare chalice you refer to.
As with many great ideas, the concept is elegant and simple, the execution is not.
Mal
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 18, 2007 - 02:11am PT
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So Mal my friend,
a little Saturday night thread dredging?
Do I gather that the implement lies beyond Trango?
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Nov 18, 2007 - 10:57am PT
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My saturdays have been so full of late night partying that I decided to troll the web last night. I dredged up a good one.
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Nov 18, 2007 - 12:20pm PT
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Considering the content I thought it appropriate to chime in on this thread.
Jeff I remember seeing your LURP tent in a product brochure in either 72 or 73’ and was always curious why they were never really commercially offered. Then it finally dawned on me in the early eighties. There just wasn’t the market yet for such a thing.
Here are a few shots of a “Fortress” tent I made for a couple Norwegian climbers for a trip to Patagonia. They were nice enough to send me some photos. I sold six of the twelve I ever made of these to Norway. Seems these guys were ahead of their time for alpine big walls.
The first two I built were for my own trip to Patagonia in 79’they were also completely water proof (tested with a fire hose) and beyond that I tried to make them rock and wind proof. In the outer shell of the tents you can see the ballistic nylon that made up the front face and flaps that covered the doors. Unlike the ones in the photos here the first two had lower deflecting panels that mirrored the top. When hung and tensioned down it looked like a diamond cocoon on the wall. It was so tight it hummed to the touch.
This shot was taken up on the Towers of Paine somewhere
They even used them as their base camp.
The last one I ever made was for a special customer, Todd Bibler. He customized his with an all goretex upper and showed me a clever zipper configuration in the doors to allow extra venting. That was a pretty clean setup.
So all in all I guess the market for such a thing didn’t come in to place on such a thing until the nineties as Duecy says. On the other hand our one man ledges were booming as Yosemite wall traffic increased annually. Back then you’d see two or three parties on the Captain at a time! Haha can you imagine!
Mike Graham
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 18, 2007 - 01:39pm PT
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Heeeey Mike,
good to hear from you again.
I've got one of your 6 strap one man ledges (used on FAs of Prodigal and Thunderbird).
I guess the idea of a cook hole never caught on,....
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orw
Sport climber
Norway
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Nov 18, 2007 - 02:32pm PT
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graham:
Do you know the name of the norwegian climbers on the trip to Paine? As a norwegian climber with a long lasting interest in wall climbing I've never heard of that trip. It would be very interesting to get some more info, to fill in another gap in my historical knowledge!:-) I know your ledges were used on at least one winter ascent of the Troll Wall, on Great Trango and many other routes...
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