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WBraun
climber
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Dec 26, 2006 - 02:43pm PT
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Black Primo and Jigsaw are both 5 star, and I don't know sh#t about face or slab climbing.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 26, 2006 - 03:19pm PT
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Sorry, I meant Stan Laurel.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 26, 2006 - 06:01pm PT
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Bruce wrote
"Karl: RB has been a vue flashed (unless climbers are all liars)."
Bruce, I was just referring to the "quality" rating. It'd be a good quality route with a short approach for mid-5.11 climbers if it weren't for the final crux. I don't doubt that a fine climber could flash it, that's what tends to happen when a route is new or a cliimb is "in style"
RB is past both those qualification and so it just sits there even though it has a 5 minute approach. Most folks who could do it aren't interested at this point.
A Vue flashed? Is that like "French Flashing" (one of my specialites!)
peace
Karl
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 27, 2006 - 01:51am PT
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Yes, you have to be led to the base with a sack tied over your head and no one can give you verbal beta in advance. Best to spend the previous night standing on your head in the C4 bathroom.
I get the feeling that that 5.11d rating for "Rainbow Bridge" is probably a bit stingy, too.
Just wondering outloud, but just how many ascents has "Black Primo" had over the years? Seems like that crux pitch is a must-do for anyone who wants to extend the "Great Tradition" of face climbing in the Ditch. Are there such individuals around anymore? Maybe that's why the "Shining" is still unrepeated.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 29, 2006 - 12:18pm PT
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The Shining, hmmm, isn't that JB's testpiece on the Footstool of all places? No repeat still? That's amazing at this point in history. No takers for such a bonafide thriller?
John mentioned that route way back as something he really wanted to photograph somebody on and asked if I was interested in giving it a go. When I asked him, "John, how hard is it really?" and got a wider than usual smile to accompany the standard "Oh, not too bad," I knew that he might be handing me a snake in a can.
Should have gone for it anyhow! The same question about the Bachar-Yerian in those days got you an "Oh, not too bad, 10c, 10d." So I came to know that the numbers were not relevant and that I had to pay attention to other indicators when trying to ferret out reliable beta from Maestro Bachar. Might just have to dust off my Sailin' Shoes and head on up there for old times sake!
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 29, 2006 - 01:45pm PT
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No, the "Shining" (5.12c) is Scott Burke's 1988 route in the Royal Arches Area (Reid, Yo Free Climbs, p. 178). Says 5.12c, but I see a 5.12d pitch on the topo. Oh well, you'll have to go up there and see for yourself.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 29, 2006 - 04:56pm PT
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Understarred face climbs?
Bruce's comment about the understarred face climbs like Jigsaw and Black Primo made me curious. Here is a list of some of the mostly and * face/slab climbs in Reid's 1994 guidebook:
El Cap
 General Dynamics 5.13a ** R
Armageddon 5.10d R
The Promise 5.11b * R
The Believer 5.12a * R
The Bluffer 5.11a *
Champagne on Ice 5.11d ** R
Submen 5.11b * R
El Matador 5.12a ** R
Burden of Dreams 5.12b **
Never Say Dog 5.11b **
The Big Juan 5.12b **
Golden Years 5.12a ** (I heard a hold broke on the crux p3 traverse pitch recently)
Royal Arches / Arches Terrace
Firefingers 5.11b **
Poker Face 5.10b **
The Shining 5.12c ** R
The Rambler 5.10d ** R
Shaky Flakes 5.11a * R
Mid-Life Crisis 5.10 **
Greasy but Groovy 5.10d * R/X
Crest Jewel 5.10a ***
Mt. Watkins
Escape From Freedom 5.11c A1 (maybe unstarred because it was relatively new? although The Chief and Southern Belle get *** and have not been done much, either; a tricky problem for guidebook authors to deal with)
Golden Dawn 5.10d
Half Dome
Dome Polishers 5.9 ** R
Snake Dike 5.7 *** R
Dreamscape 5.11+ **
The Fast Lane 5.11+ ** R
Autobahn 5.11+ ** R
Karma 5.11d A0
Glacier Point Apron
Wild at Heart 5.12b **
Dead Baby 5.11b **
Grack Marginal 5.9 *** R
Misty Beethoven 5.10d *** R
Hall of Mirrors 5.12c *** R
Goodrich Right Side 5.9 *** R
Zoner 5.11b **
Cold Fusion 5.10a **
Point Beyond 5.8 **
Angel's Approach 5.9 ***
Anchors Away 5.11a ***
Sailin' Shoes 5.10d **
The Token 5.11d ** R/X
Green Dragon 5.11b *** R/X (not R/X; definitely not at the crux)
Middle Cathedral
Space Babble 5.11a R *
Tour de Force 5.12b R *
Rainbow Bridge 5.11d *
Stoner's Highway 5.10c ***
Pulsing Pustules 5.11c *
Pieces of Eight 5.10c * R
Paradise Lost 5.10a * R
Direct North Buttress 5.10b ***
Middle Cathedral Apron
Ramer 5.10c ***
Jigsaw 5.11a * R
Black Primo 5.11b * R
Road to Ruin 5.12a **
Ticket to Nowhere 5.11c *** R
Quicksilver 5.9 *** R
Walk of Life 5.10+ * R
Freewheelin' 5.10b *** R
Stupid Pet Tricks 5.10b **
Bottom Feeder 5.10a *
Cat Dancing 5.10a **
Orange Peel 5.11b ** R
Exodus 5.10b * R
Tapestry 5.9 * R/X
Five O'clock Shadow 5.9 X
Home Run 5.10d *
Tears of Joy 5.10a *
Mother Earth 5.11c A4 **
Teacher's Pet 5.12a *
That'll Teach You 5.12a *
Smith-Crawford 5.11d **
Crazy 5.11d **
If there is constructive criticism to be made, one good way is to send a list of the climbs you've done to Don Reid, with the star ratings you think they should get.
If it helps, I couldn't find a definition of "what the stars mean". But I suppose you could construct one statistcally; perhaps * are supposed to be in the top 5% of routes in terms of quality (possibly hard to define exactly) or popularity. Maybe are 85-95% and * are 70-85%? One of the difficulties with assigning stars is routes which are new or rarely done - maybe they should get something like a ?* rating; the stars are unknown, and it would be nice if they were not seen as being in the same category as the lower quality routes.
One star system explanation that I like (from Traprock) is:
*** exceptional in nature due to some memorable combination of moves, length, exposure, difficulty, and aesthetic appeal.
** very good but lacking that essential ingredient which would make it outstanding.
* only average in quality but still worth doing.
(no stars) ranges from average to poor in quality and is not worth doing by someone with limited time.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 31, 2006 - 03:49pm PT
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I finally unearthed my guidebooks to assist my recollection! The route that I was thinking of is The Promise if I am not mistaken. The Shining sounds way out of my league!
Scott's route on Middle, Pieces of Eight, should have seen some repeats by now. I think he refitted it and replaced the 5/16" Taperbolts, so it should be solid enough. Any takers out there?
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 31, 2006 - 06:26pm PT
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Don't know the particulars, but I think the Promise has been repeated. Not so, "The Shining". Sure has a nice position on that wall, but 5.12d micros sounds a little hard on the tips. Have also heard that the cruxes are run-out.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 31, 2006 - 09:53pm PT
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Steve wrote:
> Scott's route on Middle, Pieces of Eight, should have seen some repeats by now
I think you meant Tour de Force as Scott Burke's "hard" (5.12) route on Middle. I recall hearing that Steve Schneider tried to repeat it, but didn't get up it. Pieces of Eight, FA by Scott Burke and Steve Schneider, is much more moderate (5.10).
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Kevin wrote:
> Is Tour de Force the route that starts just left of the BW? Always looked at that before it got done.
Yes - there's a nice topo in the 1994 Reid guide. p1 is rated 5.11d and looks quite steep in the rounded dishes. p3 is supposed to be 5.12b gastonning.
> Howbout Yabobabble to the left of SB, anyone ever continue that up to the KB? I think maybe Yabo started that with Graham? Nice and steep over there.
I have seen a few bolts over there - some directly under the Kor-Beck, and also at least one visible if you rap directly from p2 of Space Babble to the ground. It is shown in my modified topo just above an arch. I don't know if it's been connected to SB.
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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I remember that route next to SB but I’m vague on the beginnings of it. First went up there with Kauk and later took Moffatt. I got a ways up it, I remember there wasn’t much to hang on to. That was so long ago we were still in EB’s surely its been finished with all the boot advancements and all.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I haven't seen Burke for awhile, but he told me that "Pieces of Eight" was a great route but that he regretted making it so run-out that people don't do it. He said that, with the conditions of the bolts, that it would be madness for anyone to head up there now.
It's my understanding some service minded folks might have started replacing the old-bad bolts, but I didn't hear that the project got finished so beware or find out if you head up "Pieces of Eight"
Peace
Karl
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I ran into Scott back in 99 and asked him about the face climbing scene. My comments about the bolt replacement on Pieces Of Eight are not definitive so beware unless you get confirmation from the mouth of the Burke himself. Those old Taperbolts are crap for sure!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Kevin, I came across the topo that you drew from memory circa 1977 of Space Babble and Mother Earth on a page in my old Meyer's guide. All was mysterious up there for me back when you passed on the treasure map and I started scheming on me own share of the riches!
Vis a vis Pieces Of Eight, I posted some info on Taperbolt extraction on BFTWM for information sake.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The "5.10 up&down" and "Leap or 5.12" on the Mother Earth topo are absolutely classic! Wasn't that 5.12 section "the hardest moves that I've done on rock" to quote Kauk after he did it statically? I just noticed that neither comment made it into the Yellow Meyer's guide topo. Donny, you checking this out?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 18, 2007 - 11:03pm PT
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A few shots of Greasy But Groovy located on the obvious clean slab below the main Royal Arch.
Fig starting up the opening pitch.
Fig following the second pitch.
Pondering the thirty foot runout up the wave to the hole on pitch three.
Into the hole at last!
Well Largo, by me footwear, I'll be havin' yer hat! But since we didn't do the fourth pitch, perhaps one of those fashionable period sport headbands might do. A superb route and next on my list to refit and restore unless there are any objections?
Cheers
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 25, 2007 - 08:33pm PT
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For your consideration folks, allow me to introduce the Space Station. An all stainless steel system designed for remote, high use belay/rappel anchors. Central to its design is the welded master link which offers the equivalent of a 3/4" round wear profile. The hangers are an adaptation of an old Dolt three hole hanger design placed low on the Nose while he was involved in the project. Thickened by 1/16" in all dimensions, the design happens to work out perfectly. Clip, relax, babble a bit......
Note the half link welded in as a wear bar. Sectioning chain produces lots of half links which can be used to produce a 100+ year anchor if configured as shown. With all the effort involved in replacing remote anchors we should all be thinking in terms of anchor lifespan. Here is one possibility in prototype.
Here is the Dolt original and my adaptation.
Any concerns about using this system for the proposed descent line?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 25, 2007 - 08:35pm PT
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I'll belay and rap off it any day.
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