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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 26, 2006 - 09:54am PT
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Ripped this second-hand quote off from a deleted thread:
"...dig out the latest Chomsky tome, crank-up the Manu Chao on the ipod and slyly but furtively dart eyes about the room to see if the euro/latin/backpacker chicks within earshot happens to notice the dissafected/yankee-dissident/sophisticate/citizen-of-the-world-that-has-yet-to-emigrate-despite-his-grievances who's so different from his more noxious gun-toting-banjo-playing-sisterhumping-fundamentalist countrymen, understands the sheer infallibility of the grand globo-euro-lefto consensus, etc - and stands out from all of the other dissaffected/sophisticate/yankee-dissident types cruising around trying to churn up a little action with the well-rehearsed Chomsky/Zinn/Said riff while they're traveling between semesters/construction projects/fishing seasons. "
Granted this quote is from an alleged Canadian, but it got me thinking a bit about the whole Ugly American thing. I’ve had my own encounters with the stereotypical Ugly American in my travels, but without exception they’ve always been the retired, traveling senior citizen set upset that they can’t find a McDonalds or that the immigration officer at the airport in Panama doesn’t speak English.
I think I’ve been more embarrassed by these displays than anyone’s really been offended. In contrary to what many view as rampant anti-Americanism throughout the world, I’ve gotta say that I’ve never been a target of any disdain. Just the opposite actually, when people find out I’m a yank (I’m usually mistaken for a Brit or a German) they’re more than anxious to talk to me to find out what it’s like to be an American (or as one guy put it, “what does it feel like to have the entire world hate your president?”) They always ask about my opinion of Bush, whether I voted for him, my thoughts on Iraq, etc… but I’ve never detected even the slightest degree of scorn.
Have any of you ever really experienced any anti-Americanism in your travels?
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 26, 2006 - 10:08am PT
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I've only been a few countries last few years, but people have been polite everywhere I've been. :-) I think they are able to distinguish between actions by the US. government and its citizens. Then again, I haven't visited any countries in the middle-east.
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paulj
climber
utah
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Oct 26, 2006 - 10:16am PT
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In 2003, on a visit to a French university in the immediate aftermath of the buildup to Iraq, my colleague and I were frequently asked about American attitudes toward the French. What surprised me was that the questions were asked in such a way as to show concern by the French over the damage to our "special" relationship. Their questions frequently referred to our shared history and partnership, such as LaFayette (the French General who bottled up the British at Yorktown, the key to winning our revolutionary war), the Statue of Liberty, etc. I'm not sure what they thought of what we said because my colleague (a Repub) and I (a Demo) gave very different, but polite, types of responses.
As far as perceived Ugly Americanism, this prize goes to my Russian-born colleague, with whom I was traveling in London earlier this year. Another colleague and I wanted to go someplace cheap for lunch which, in London, means something less than $25 or $30. While walking from the hotel we mention this to our Russian friend, who stops dead in her tracks and says, "I am NOT going to McDonald's!" It kind of ticked me off that a colleague of several years could slam us (both having traveled extensively) with such prejudice.
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Oct 26, 2006 - 10:26am PT
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My only bad travel experience came 10yrs. ago in northern Summatra, in the province of Ache, same place as all the tsunami devastation. I was on a bus that came through the province border and was boarded by a military looking group toting machine guns that looked through everyones papers and passports and when they got to me they asked me to leave the bus, they questioned me for about an hour. This of course was about 4:00am and these guys seemed very jacked up, maybe too many red bulls. They pretty much just tried to rattle me with a few threats and made fun of my clothes. It was a little freaky at first and then I realized that these guys were just bored.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 26, 2006 - 10:39am PT
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I have never experienced anti-Americanism from non-Americans in my travels.
The only anti-Americans I know of are Bush and his handlers/cronies.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Oct 26, 2006 - 11:00am PT
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I meet two kinds of "ugly American" stereotypes in my travels. One is the fat-ignorant-tourist image, which does indeed seem to fit some of our countrymen. We can try to counter that by setting a different example ourselves.
The other problem is harder to counter: people ask me, what's wrong with our politics? "How can your voters be so not grown up?" one scientist asked me at the height of the Monica Lewinski scandal, which from abroad looked like a trivial issue for a superpower to become obsessed with. "You're dragging us down with you!" a student told me, more in distress than in anger, last month. From a variety of foreign perspectives, U.S. voters fit the image of that fat-ignorant-tourist all too well.
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screelover
Mountain climber
Ottawa, Canada
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Oct 26, 2006 - 11:15am PT
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Really, isn't it more an "ugly tourist" kinda thing? Folks who have the bucks to travel to places they don't know about and, because they lack the knowledge, assume everywhere should be just like home, except quaint? It can piss off the locals, and understandably. Truth is americans have more bucks than most others, so they travel a lot. And there's a lot of you to go around. I've met germans, italians and brits who are just as annoying, and for the same reasons. Jerks are jerks.
As a Canadian, I'm aware that some of my countrymen (and women) take get far too much enjoyment out of criticizing americans and seem to feel like all of you voted for Bush and Company. These folks are usually just insecure and seem to feel the need to dump on others to prop up their own egos. They don't realize that they often sound like a**holes.
Reminds me of an amusing incident years ago when I was travelling through norther Wales and staying with a Mrs. Jones at her B&B. She kinda was cool towards me for a while, then asked where I was from. When I told her Canada, she looked visibly relieved and said, "thank heavens, I was afraid you were English".
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2006 - 11:25am PT
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It appears as if most people that are “globally conscious” recognize dissimilarities with their own countrymen (regardless of where they’re from). Every country has their version of an “ignorant hick” but most people that travel recognize that as travelers (as opposed to tourists) we all share a common bond, regardless of where we’re from.
IMO Screelover (despite being Canadian :) nailed-it.
That said though, I can usually pick out an American or German from across the airport as we / they typically talk at full volume.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Oct 26, 2006 - 11:53am PT
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Just reads like the rantings of a typical angry socialist, to me. It has been several years since I've been to Europe but there has always been an air of disdain for Americans coming from the college-aged crowd in most European countries. Like many of that age group in our own country, they are wrapped up in the politics and stereotpyes their professors teach them and I'd be willing to bet this Canadian has yet to strike up a conversation with one of those Yankees he/she is quick to judge from a silent distance.
Ed
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jackass
climber
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Oct 26, 2006 - 11:58am PT
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Yes, I get anti-U.S. sentiment quite a bit. Rarely is it directed at me because I am usually the one joining in on the anti-U.S. sentiment!
However, most amazing was travelling right after THE 9/11... wherever I went, I experienced love and respect and sympathy and solidarity whenever I admitted to being from the U.S. THAT was a first for me! We were loved in the world for the 1st time (atleast in my generation.) What happened??? Oh yeah...
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2006 - 12:10pm PT
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It has been several years since I've been to Europe but there has always been an air of disdain for Americans coming from the college-aged crowd in most European countries.
Ed, was the air of disdain for Americans directed at you or other Americans specifically ? An air of disdain doesn’t seem that palpable to me, are you sure it wasn’t just your interpretation of non-specific events. Were you somehow identified as a yank?
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Oct 26, 2006 - 12:11pm PT
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"Bush&Co (including me) love America and have a clear vsion of bringing most of our good values to the rest of the world."
Sounds like uncle Adolph is speaking through you again fatty.
Been to a seance lately? Or are you realy possesed?
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2006 - 12:30pm PT
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Pinochet, Pinochet, Pinochet, Pinochet!
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 26, 2006 - 12:31pm PT
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Bush&Co (including me) love America and have a clear vsion of bringing most of our good values to the rest of the world.
How would you like it if some other country started invading us and our neighbors so they could "spread their values to the rest of the world"? I'm guessing you'd be inclined to take up whatever arms you could and want them out at all costs.
Someday, people like you will pay attention to how people actually behave when these things happen to them, as opposed to how some moron at the Kato Institute theorizes they should behave.
And, Israel shares the same values as America.
Um, that's a load of crap. When a terrorist blows up a club and kills 30 people in Israel, that club is rebuilt and open in a month or two. That is how they openly defy terrorism and why it hasn't been able to shut down their society. Moreover, their people make sacrifices and maintain participation in their government in spite of the violence. Here, we hem and haw for 5 years about maybe building something in place of the WTC, while our president makes it clear he doesn't want the average american to feel any pain as a result of our foreign policy problem. "Just go about your lives and go shopping." Meanwhile, the president and his incompetent honchos use the attack as an excuse to invade a country that had nothing to do with the attack.
If you don't see that as a huge difference in values, then you really need to get out of your office and travel the world a bit.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2006 - 12:35pm PT
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South America is the sam f'd up place it has always been, we'll have to clean it up in ten years. Remember the Monroe Doctrine?
Nicaragua is in Central America ya dope!
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 26, 2006 - 12:36pm PT
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"Truth is americans have more bucks than most others, so they travel a lot."
Screelover, I'm not sure about that. I don't think we do travel a lot, at least as much as some other countries. I think that is because we don't get as much vacation time as a lot of other countries so we don't venture as far, or at least we don't venture as far for as long as people from other countries. While I understand the overall economic tradeoffs with giving workers more vacation time off, I think it is unfortunate that Americans might be seeing a bit less of the world than they should.
P.S. When I travel abroad people usually ask if I'm Canadian.
P.P.S. It would be interesting to see some stats on this.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2006 - 12:44pm PT
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Dirt, do you think the lack of sufficient vacation time is the reason than more than 50% of American’s don’t have passports or do you think that it’s because the American establishment as a whole does not embrace “travel”.
In a lot of countries it’s accepted and even expected that after “university” you take a year or two off and travel.
I tried to get a job with the airlines years ago as a baggage handler (strictly so I could take advantage of flight privileges) but I couldn’t pass the FBI background check because my background was “unverifiable”. They request you account for your whereabouts for anywhere you go exceeding two weeks or something ridiculous. I had to fill out four or five pages trying to account for the previous two years of my life and they weren’t having it.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 26, 2006 - 12:57pm PT
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I don't know. It's an interesting topic, and I haven't checked any actual data on travel trends so I'm largely basing this on anecdotal observations. But I'd bet lack of vacation time is a major reason. How much paid time do we Americans typically get--2 weeks or so? With so many other demands on people's lives, it's hard to devote a week, let alone 2 weeks, to traveling to a distant country. And you really do should allow for a two week trip if any kind of serious transportation time is involved.
I don't think the post-university travel time is emphasized heavily in the U.S. Some do it, some travel within the U.S. (which is a worthwhile thing to do as well). Some friends did the post-college travel thing, but I didn't.
Germans, on the other hand, seem to get around quite a bit. I'm sure they have more vacation time than we have.
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Oct 26, 2006 - 12:58pm PT
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Anybody read the latest issue of "Backcountry". There is a great article about skiing in Iran. I was surprised at how accepting the locals were of these Americans. Of course, they were all men.
It seems to me the rest of the world has a much more mature attitude toward politics. Traveling in Spain last year, I never encountered another American, except for my last night in Seville at a tapas bar. It was a non-issue with the folks I met. Never a word was said about it, our any political questions asked of me. Since I work in the tourist trade, and so do most of the folks I met, we talked about who made the best and worst tourists. Interesting. Seemed to have more to do with the socio economic class they are from than what country.
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