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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
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Joe wrote: Not at all, again, just the demographic concentration of trad climbers in both LA and NYC alone easily accounts for the crowds at JT and the Gunks. The level of TRing in the Gunks is the sport climbing and I would suspect in JT as well. Haven't been to Riverside or Echo to say what is going on there. But go to any metro area with both types of venues available such and folks are stacking up the sport areas.
Doesn't make sense...never will. You are a annoying, broken record.
Joe wrote: But go to any metro area with both types of venues available such and folks are stacking up the sport areas.
JT is a metro area, the Gunks is a metro area, Eldo is a metro area, Boulder Canyon is a metro area, RMNP & Lumpy Ridge is a metro area and Tahquitz & Suicide Rocks are metro areas.
WTF is wrong with you???
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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May 14, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
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too many words for me... but.... something to ponder about climber populations:
FACT: Most "climbers" climb for shiit. There are not masses at the Quarry in Riverside because the climbing is just too hard for them, bolted or knott. If they go to Josh they can actually get some routes in instead of just dogging the shiit out of the first bolt on some manufactured wall. The difficulty level at those areas is what keeps climbers away. oh... and the less than pristine environment.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 01:52pm PT
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swimming in circles...
photo...d'antonio collection
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 01:54pm PT
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WTF is wrong with you Bob, read dude. LA and NYC are metro areas with not a ton of options relative to climbing venues, so in the Gunks that's why TRing is the sport climbing (and I'd guess the same out at JT). In the SLC and Denver metro areas, on the otherhand, there are endless options and so sport climbers and trad climbers can go their separate ways. CO, by it's very nature, has a very high demographic of all kinds of climbers compared to other states which accounts for why Eldo and RMNP et al are busy. Las Vegas has Red Rock which more or less well segregates sport and trad, but rap bolting up in some of the canyons is on-going, uncontrolled, and unabated.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
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Stink,
Because without understanding the demographics, let alone simply acknowledging them, you really can't get a handle on the impact or manage it. I'm not guessing anything besides the sport / trad spit on a percentage basis. Sport climbers really aren't interested in acknowledging the actual demographics of climbing because that would start to paint a picture of the real impacts and - god forbid - the true level of bolting that's going on. There really is no way to simultaneosly be 'proactive' and be in denial about the stats.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 02:11pm PT
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Joe..I will bet you any amount of money (you choose) that more bolting was happening in the late 80's and early 90's than there is at the present?
I want real data and not your quessing.
You in??
Joe wrote:Because without understanding the demographics
By your own admission you don't understand them...you quess!!!!
Get real proven data and then come talk.
You are like a seagull...squawk. sh#t and leave.
Prime example of Joe and seagull effect:
Joe wrote:Delusional? Not at all - no one has the real stats - but I'd guess that 80-85% of the people who put on a harness to rock climb this weekend were climbing bolted routes and that that is the case every day in the US. I'd say just the opposite - you're in denial.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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May 14, 2008 - 02:20pm PT
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Your post is confusing.
What is it I was supposed to have done?
Ron O
Hi Ron assuming you climbed The Bachar Yerian and You Asked
For It glad to hear your still with us.
I was looking to do a on-sight Red Point of You Asked For It
the day the Dike Route was chosen for me. This time was a short
weekend trip for us. My partner and I decided upon 1 Red Point
each the same day and 1 moderate longer route the second day.
This was my 1'st technical rock climbing trip in the valley and
the meadows.
1. Central Pillar of Frenzy. I voted for, Gordon Red Pointed
1'st 5 on the 1'st day.
2. Dike Route. Gordon voted for, I onsight Red Pointed on the
1'st day.
3. Regular Route. We swap'd leads and the final 5'th class prior
to the 4'th class ledges was simul no pro. This was chosen over
going back to the valley to do the east buttress of
middle cathedral due to descent times.
We both made it to work Monday morning leaving the previous
Friday evening after work even with the 800 mile round trip.
I believe it was the climbing article with your name that
inspired me for You asked For It. Been many years, perhaps
I have your name confused with another article in 1 of the
climbing magazines.
Hope this answers your question.
as jb says,
cheers
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 02:38pm PT
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Joe..I will bet you any amount of money (you choose) that more bolting was happening in the late 80's and early 90's than there is at the present?
Bob, how many folks do you know who own a power drill compared to then? There would be another good stat - % of climbers who own a power drill. And all those drills are just sitting around doing nothing suppose? That's certainly not the case in NV or here in OR. Are you claiming all the good lines are bolted so the bolting has now abated? How many bolts have you put in since 2000? How many total bolts would you guess have gone in since 2000? How many do you think are going into rock in 2008?
I want real data and not your quessing.
Get real proven data and then come talk.
Gee, Bob, now there's some clever posturing given any stats about any aspect of climbing are speculative by definition. That, however, doesn't mean we all can't all make some rough guesses about those demographics.
We do know for sure in 2008 some percentage of the U.S. population is going to don harnesses to rock climb, and of that demographic some percentage, inside or out, will only clip bolts in 2008 - my question to you Bob, JHedge or anyone else is what percentage do you think that is? Hey, don't like my guess of 80-85%, out with your own then. Can any of you really say it's a number anywhere below 75% with a straight face...?
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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May 14, 2008 - 02:42pm PT
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Tarbuster,
It seems pretty clear that many folks simply want to argue the point and have no interest in coexistance. It also seems there is alot of frustration expressed in this thread that has nothing to do with ground up vs. top down. While these various threads have helped me realize that I personally prefer ground up, and have short changed myself when I applied the top down approach, the real issue that seems to have folks riled up is crowding/congestion. Whether an area is strictly ground up traditional or grid bolted, if every route has either a tr dangling from it, or a line of folks vying at the base, the climbing experience is diminished.
Don't worry, some folks are taking an introspective approach to the issue, though they may not being expressing it in these threads.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 03:07pm PT
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Joe wrote:We do know for sure in 2008 some percentage of the U.S. population is going to don harnesses to rock climb, and of that demographic some percentage, inside or out, will only clip bolts in 2008 - my question to you Bob, JHedge or anyone else is what percentage do you think that is? Hey, don't like my guess of 80-85%, out with your own then. Can any of you really say it's a number anywhere below 75% with a straight face...?
Joe...just because someone clips bolts does not mean that do that all the time.
Case in..Jim Erickson...well known climber from the 60's & 70's...climbs at Shelf Rd in the winter and other areas in the spring, summer and fall.
Do you think that Jim Erickson is a sport climber??
You are extremely confused about the stats...a majority of TRAD-CLIMBERS...clip bolts...maybe 90-per-cent...does that make them sport climber???
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 03:14pm PT
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Bob, that isn't the question - and that simple question is what percentage of the total 2008 climbing demographic will only clip bolts in 2008?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 03:22pm PT
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Joe wrote:Bob, that isn't the question - and that simple question is what percentage of the total 2008 climbing demographic will only clip bolts in 2008?
No...my answer was truth...which you can't digest.
Answer this...what percentage of trad climbers will not do any sport climbing this year.
My guess would be 1 per-cent or less.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 14, 2008 - 03:42pm PT
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Bob, that isn't the question - and that simple question is what percentage of the total 2008 climbing demographic will only clip bolts in 2008?
Compared to the folks on Denali, Hood, and Mount Rainier? Or the folks that que up on routes at the Gunks, City of Rocks, Squamish, Red Rocks, etc etc etc to climb trad?
Would be interesting to know that demographic.
I started out climbing prior to the sport boom. But, I do both trad and sport climbing (and try to open both kinds of routes, too). I go to the gym, and, commented last night, rather proudly, that of all the folks croweded into the lead area, that I was the youngest at one point (by maybe 8 to 10 years!). So, if I saw that situation myopically, I'd have to say that "gym climbers" are guys like Tom Kimbrough who I've seen out sports climbing too, but, my bet is most folks wouldn't call him a sport climber.
There persists this "us versus them" type of mentality from certain folks. I think they are in the minority of climbers. Most of us do several types of climbing, whether it be sloggin' up Mount Hood, clipping bolts, or placing gear, or bouldering. Big tent. I guess the bottom line for me is that I find enjoyment in all types of climbing. And, although I do like to occaisionally make fun of boulderers or sports climbers (easy pickin's), I do both from time to time and its always fun to see folks psyched out doin' it.
As far as the topic of the thread is concerned, take Litte Cottonwood here. I know a far number of folks grumbled when All Chalk, No Action, Meat Puppets, Schoolroom Streak, etc went in. But, those lines weren't chopped, and, have become sought after diversions. The two "styles" co-exist fairly peacefully here. Sure, bolts have been chopped. But, by and large, there's a measure of respect given to most of the routes done and redone in whatever style here. Which is either cause or effect due to why the community here seems to get along fairly well, for the most part.
Well, off to Tahquitz to do long easy trad routes. Bet I stand in line, too! Dang them popular trad lines...maybe I can convince them folks bouldering is funner...(best thing that ever happened to climbing from a crowded routes perspective, IMHO).
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 03:52pm PT
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Thank you Brian.
Case in point. Was at Animal World the other day at there had to be 30 to 40 climbers...maybe less than 10 per-cent only clipped bolts.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 04:26pm PT
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No Bob, you didn't answer it. It's a simple question and it is the main driver of the overall demographics (raw, total numbers) and impact of climbing. What is so fearful of that stat? It's of primary concern relative to how rock is used as a resource in technical rock climbing. But clearly that stat, or say the number of new U.S. sport routes being established in 2008, are clearly not numbers you or others are really interested in having reach the light of day even as ballpark estimates. Without them, however, no real conversation around the demographics, resource usage, and impact can really be conducted.
And the bolting bans and strict management plans in place around the country aren't by and large based on overreaction or a misestimation of the impact - they are based on cold hard experience with the negative impact of bolting by those unwilling to take a considered and judicious approach to their use. Educating the climbers that come out of gyms about reasonable use and minimizing their impact is great. Evangelizing climbing to get ever more people out climbing is just plain stupid as far as I'm concerned.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 04:45pm PT
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Joe answer this question...what percentage of trad climbers will not do any sport climbing this year.
If the percentage is even 80-90 percent it still means that a large percentage of trad-climbing use sport climbing areas and are a large part of the issues with these said areas.
A very small percentage of the climbing population does new routes on a consistent basis...maybe less than 5 per-cent.
Joe...I give you a answer ...less than 40 per-cent.
Now answer my questions.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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May 14, 2008 - 04:54pm PT
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Hey Mal..... give these guys some numbers out of one of the mags Media Kits. Don't they have all sorts or charts and graphs and crap showing how many are doing what and how often? I used to get them before I went postal.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 05:45pm PT
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No, I'm saying bolting in many of those places was, or like Red Rock NV canyons are, out-of-control and sport climbers weren't using anything close to common sense in the application of bolts or in selecting to bolt. Again, how many new sport routes do you suppose are going in this year in the US? A fair number would be my guess.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 05:57pm PT
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Joe wrote: No, I'm saying bolting in many of those places was, or like Red Rock NV canyons are, out-of-control and not sport climbers weren't using anything close to common sense in the application of bolts or in selecting to bolt. Again, how many new sport routes do you suppose are going in this year in the US? A fair number would be my guess.
Your wrong...who common sense/what is out of control?? Should a fanatic like you or someone like Jim Erickson be the gauge of this.
As to the amount of new routes being done compared to sport or trad...only falls on the shoulders of the trad-crew to get off their asses and be more like Todd Gordon!
In places like the SLV and Shelf Rd the bolting of new routes has come a snail pace...not from lack of available rock.
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