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marius
Big Wall climber
montréal canada
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 10, 2004 - 09:00pm PT
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What do you guys think about buying a used silent partner and how much would you pay.
Thanks
Marius
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Demented
climber
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Aug 11, 2004 - 11:32am PT
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I think buying used gear is dicey in spite of that fact you’d think “what can go wrong” with something as stout as a silent partner. Not likely the thing was dropped 500 feet- but yet?
For instance- I climb on my Soloist 2 times a week or so. My 9mm tie in is getting a bit old (9 mo?) and I found myself freakin out last Friday just because I felt my 2000% redundancy might be compromised by the old cord. You better believe I’m buying me some 5000 lb. test Spectra this week before I climb again…..
It comes down to- you have one life. Stack the odds, eh?
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Aug 11, 2004 - 12:22pm PT
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I bought my Silent Partner for $100 from a guy who bought it to use on his home wall...not really understanding how it worked. It was basically brand new. It was the only thing he was selling. I went to his house, saw the wall, etc. and felt like I had good reason to believe that the guy really was confused and didn't booty it from the base of El Cap.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 11, 2004 - 01:34pm PT
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I have never tried a Silent Partner [because of its cost] but would like to.
How do you-all compare it to aid soloing with an unmodified Grigri? I *love* a Grigri for aid soloing because it is compact [the SP is big and clunky] and because I can lower off on it, which you can't do with a Silent Partner.
Paying half of retail price for a used piece of climbing gear in good shape is about right. Why is the device being sold? Is the owner returning to a Grigri?
Marius, you can click here to [url="http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=46319"]read more about the Silent Parnter.[/url] If you reply to the post, you will bring it to the top of the forum, and perhaps get a few more responses. It's been dead for half a year.
Notes:
No matter what solo device you use, ALWAYS tie a backup knot! Sooner or later the backup knot will catch you - this is not Big Wall Theory, this is Big Wall Fact.
The Soloist [which I have never used] is known to not catch upside-down falls, so more frequent backup knots might be prudent.
The guy who died in the helicopter accident in Yosemite in May 2002 had busted his arm on Braille book [I think] after taking an upside-down fall which his Soloist did not stop. My understanding is that as he was airlifted out via helicopter, the tail rotor on the helicopter failed, and he was thwacked through the trees in the gurney. The injured guy was killed, and his rescuer riding with him was injured badly.
Using the internet logic of some writing round this place, you will conclude that the improper use of his Soloist caused his death.
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Demented
climber
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Aug 11, 2004 - 02:00pm PT
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The Soloist requires tying an overhand knot every so often on your trailing cord; the idea being if the cam somehow fails~~ the fat knot will catch when the body of the device slides onto the knot. This is different than actually tying your standard “backup knot” onto the rope.
(…the guy on Braille book did not even tie the overhand knots; he apparently pitched upside down and went the distance).
Edit- below Wren manual gives you a choice of either tying a standard “backup knot” or relying on the "stop-sliding" back up knot. Most most people I’ve met who lead with the Soloist just rely on the "stop-sliding" back up knot. This means you are 100% reliant on the 9mm or 5.5 Kevlar that attached from harness to Soloist. This is the part than always spooks me a little. So yea you can tie a knot from your rope to you harness- this makes things safer, but then the Soloist feeds poorly and the hangy dangly loops always snag…
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 11, 2004 - 02:31pm PT
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"The Soloist requires tying an overhand knot every so often on your trailing cord; the idea being if the cam somehow fails~~ the fat knot will catch when the body of the device slides onto the knot. This is different than actually tying your standard “backup knot” onto the rope."
{wiping sweaty hands on pants because I'm retired from free climbing, and don't own a chalk bag}
Do you do this then?
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Mike Hartley
climber
Colorado Springs
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Aug 11, 2004 - 02:45pm PT
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PTPP - I've used both an unmodified Gri-Gri and the SP for aid.
Pluses for the Gri-Gri:
Size
Cost
Easier/quicker to set up
Better to use for jugging options
In favor of the SP:
Designed to catch a fall in any orientation
Feeds much easier - I often have to manually let rope through the Gri-Gri
The freeclimber's choice
You are incorrect in saying you can't lower yourself out or do pendulums with the SP. Simply use a friction hitch around the "brake" end to a leg loop just as in backing up a rappel. You can lower under control and it locks wherever you want to stop. I've done overhanging rappels and cleaning in this manner also.
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Demented
climber
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Aug 11, 2004 - 03:01pm PT
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PTPP- yea.. I know, I know…. It’s dicey on that Soloist when not directly tied onto the rope. I don’t think the fat knot is going to fail when it tries to squish it’s way through the thinner body of the device. As I said, what spooks me is cord failure between harness and device. That’s the deadly flaw. On TR, no biggy/ not likely to generate such forces. On lead…. … much different. To be honest, most my leading on the Soloist is stuff I used to free solo as a youth…. … if and when I want to free climb a higher standard rope solo, I’ll be getting a SP…….
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Vanessa
Trad climber
Phoenix
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Aug 11, 2004 - 03:33pm PT
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Demented -- what do you mean by the "standard back up knot?" Do you mean that with the Soloist you are not tied into the rope other than via the overhand in the free end that travels up the rope and needs to be retied? Years ago I spoke with the guys at Wren (some one named Thompson?) and (without saying anything officially due to liability concerns) they did not recommend tying into the end of the free end for a variety of reasons, including the "snag factor." The Wren manual for the Soloist and the Wren manual for the Solo Aid (which works great for aiding routes without extended free climbing sections) do emphasize (perhaps overly so) the use of back up knots. I do not know what the current owner/manufacturer recommends but that is how I remember things. I have not tried to Slient Partner due to the fact that I like my existing units quite well and they were a step up for me from running clove hitches.
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Demented
climber
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Aug 11, 2004 - 04:16pm PT
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Vanessa- by “standard” I meant tying an overhand, figure eight or clove hitch and clipping into my harness, like you’d do with gri-gri… Versus the “Soloist” back up which is tying knots onto your dangling rope.
This topic has been beaten to death on various sites (rc.com, etc), but I think the bottom line is no one system is “the best”. My sense is for TR’s, maybe the Soloist…. Leading free.. .SP… aid… I cannot say. Gri-gri gets a lot of votes?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 11, 2004 - 05:21pm PT
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OK kiddies, lissen up and heed the words of your Wall Doctor, who has soloed hundreds of aid pitches and who has soloed eight El Cap Grade VI's including several rated PDH:
ALWAYS TIE A BACKUP KNOT!!!
And I mean a real backup knot tied into a separate locking crab on a different part of your harness, not merely putting a knot in the end of the rope so it doesn't slip thru the Soloist device! If you do not believe me, then you should [url="http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17407&start=17"]ask Tom Randall,[/url] who took a fall attempting to solo Eagle's Way, and who busted the carabiner on his primary solo device, and was only saved by his [proper] backup knot! He was actually charged with reckless endangerment!
Unfortunately I have no personal experience with the Soloist, but reading the manual [thanks for the link, eh?] it tells me it's not the device for me. I can't really comment on the Better Way to make the thing work, but it is obvious that it does not catch all falls! In fact, it quite clearly states this! I would personally NEVER use such a device.
I love this bit - a new level of Big Wall Theory!
"THEORY If the climber falls (in a relatively upright position), then the pull of the rope will be from an upward direction, which will cause the jaw of the device to lock against the rope and stop the fall ... It will not lock if you fall headfirst."
Note: As you are falling through space upside-down, be sure to quickly tie a proper backup knot in case you haven't yet.
I totally disagree with this:
"The [backup] knot may be attached to your harness or just left hanging (but make sure it cannot come untied)."
If you do use it, be "somewhat smart" like Demented, who understands the limitations of the device, and takes calculated risks, or climbs in places assuming he won't fall[!] You, uh, ARE using a chest harness with it, right, Demented? Certainly he is correct about a weak point being the cord, but in light of the device's other shortcoming, it seems far from weakest link to me. I will point out that the Solo Aid has the same drawback - you need a cord.
Part of the Journey from Young Bull to Old Bull is that you begin to recognize your own mortality. I have recently made substantial inroads in this direction! One reason you read internet forums is to learn stuff - hopefully from someone who knows what the H-E-double-hockey-stick they're talking about - and use it to save your ass.
Pay attention, and DFU.
"But if your last piece of protection angles sharply away from you (for instance, on a low angle slab - figure 5), and you fall leaning far backwards, the Soloist may not lock. (For the same reason, do not lean far back after a catch on a low angle slab)."
Oh, right - don't fall off on a slab, either.
Now that I am no longer pissing myself with laughter, I will point out something they do have correct, which is the use of prusik sling backups to hold the weight of the rope.
This is a technique that ALL [lead] soloists should employ for two reasons. The first reason is that it holds the weight of the rope up. You will find that when using a Grigri, the weight of rope below you tends to pull rope through the Grigri unbeknownst to you, and you will suddenly find yourself with five or ten extra feet of slack between you and your [lower] anchor. The backups prevent this.
The second benefit is that when you jug the pitch to clean it, your rope is rebelayed on each piece, and your weight is taken by that piece, and NOT the top anchor. What this means is that you can eliminate ALL rope abrasion by simply rebelaying below sharp edges. When you jug, your weight is held by the "prusik" at each rebelay.
Figure 6 is correct except for six things:
 the knot should be a klemheist and not a prusik [only half the wraps on a prusik grip, whereas all wraps on a klemheist grip]
the "prusik" sling should be longer, so that in an event of the fall, there is no upward pull on the piece of pro, thus increasing your fall factor
the benefit of using the klemheist over the prusik is that because the knot is asymmetrical, in the event of a fall on too short of a sling, the rope can slide upwards through the klemheist [the prusik would hold]. And yes, I've tested it lots - it works - and no, the rope won't be glazed
as per above, this "prusik" loop should be LONG, far longer than shown
I carry six per pitch, using progressively longer ones as I climb higher
The "prusiks" should be 5mm and not 3mm, since they will be taking your weight when you jug and clean
So I guess except for six mistakes on an otherwise good concept, and a device that won't hold you in many falling configurations, the Soloist is a pretty good device.
P.S. Thanks Mike Hartley for the info on SP vs. Grigri. This aid soloist is sticking with his Grigri.
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marius
Big Wall climber
montréal canada
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2004 - 09:25pm PT
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Hey
I was taking about buying a used silent partner because i'm still using clove hitch. I've use a gri-gri twice and it didn't work for me. The rope wasn't feeding well because of it's weight.Because everyone seem to be in favor for the gri-gri, maybe someone could tell me how to use it properly.
Marius still thinking about buying a used sp.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 11, 2004 - 11:45pm PT
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Marius,
You can go here to read about [url="http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=12901&forum=19&3"]the continuous loop with solo tagging.[/url] Pay special attention to rebelaying your lead rope with long prusiks [really klemheists] as described above.
You can find all sorts of information on solo climbing in my [url="http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=22175&forum=19&10"]Index to Dr. Piton Stuff.[/url]
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Vanessa
Trad climber
Phoenix
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Aug 12, 2004 - 12:43pm PT
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Thanks Demented -- that's what I thought you meant but wanted to be certain since as a middle aged bull I am always looking for ways to increase the safety/redundancy factor. Cheers.
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A. Stroman
climber
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Aug 13, 2004 - 07:13pm PT
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An important question not yet asked - is the original owner dead? If not, how much use has the object in question seen? don't know? don't mess with it. and even if you do get an answer, well, you know how climbers like to tell the truth. its your life though, but I like a clove hitch.
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mudimba
climber
Baria
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Aug 13, 2004 - 10:13pm PT
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I have a Silent Partner, and have not found it to work as well as I hoped it would. For aid it works great, but I have never found a grigri to be a hassel when aiding. I tried the SP on some easy freeclimbing, and found it virtually unusable. If you want the free rope to be light enough to let the clutch run smoothly, you have to tie backup knots at very short intervals (and tie a clove hitch on most of your pieces). I was only getting a move or two before I had to retie the knot.
I've heard of other people that use it free climbing. I don't know if they have a different setup. I was thinking it would work if I put the rope in a backpack instead of a rope bucket at the anchor, but never tried it. I have also had people tell me that skinnier ropes will feed more smoothly (I was using a 10.2)
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tyrone
Trad climber
california
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Aug 14, 2004 - 11:58pm PT
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i saw that mellisa posted (in a different thread) that she lost faith in her silent partner after realizing how long the fall had to be before it caught her. can anyone tell me how long the typical fall is before the device locks up. i understand it will vary based on the speed of the fall, etc, but for instance, how far in these situations?
...typical fall while top roping a vertical route?
...lead fall 6-8 feet above last piece?
i would like to get the SP to use for sport routes (seems like the quick jerking-type falls are what this thing works best on). i also, would like to use it for top roping, but i'm curious if you're on the lower part of the route, what is the likely hood of a ground fall before the SP will lock up?
blake
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 15, 2004 - 11:00am PT
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"(seems like the quick jerking-type falls are what this thing works best on)."
My understanding is that the Silent Partner works like the mechanism that arrests a seatbelt during a car crash. It's the sudden deceleration of the vehicle which causes a sudden acceleration of the seatbelt, which gets stopped. If you play with your car's seatbelt, you will see that the seatbelt will stop you from moving forward in a "quick" crash, but that you can push the seatbelt slowly forward without the mechanism engaging.
The analogy to the Silent Partner is that in a "slow fall" like you might get toproping, or like you sometimes get in a gentle lead falls, the device might not lock up. Never having had the opportunity to use a Silent Partner I would like to hear what others would say about this phenomenon. Can you play around with the thing like you can a seatbelt? Slowly pull rope through, but jerk it and have it lock up? Has anyone else had it not lock up in a slow fall?
The same is true for a Grigri, incidentally. I have spoken with at least two would-be El Cap soloists at the base of El Cap, who retreated after their Grigri failed to catch a lead fall, and they slid right to the end of their ropes! So on the off chance I haven't mentioned it lately, tie a freakin' backup knot.
Tyrone's above concern about falling low while toproping seems valid. [It's also valid if you're up high, but above a ledge - sheesh.] If you're toproping, the best way to go might be by using a Petzl Basic on a weighted toprope - you should throw a few rocks in your pack, and tie your pack onto the end of your rope to keep tension in the rope. You can read about this in the Petzl catalogue. If it were me solo toproping, I'd add a second ascender like a Gibbs - put it on a longer sling and let it "dangle and ride". I would never trust my life [any more] to a single ascender [though in the past I stupidly have] and would be concerned about the single ascender not engaging in an upside-down fall.
Cheers,
Pete
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tyrone
Trad climber
california
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Aug 15, 2004 - 06:24pm PT
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i think its been fairly well stated many times that the PS doesn't work well on low angle rock and how quickly it locks up is determined by speed of desent.
BUT WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS hard numbers for the average length a person must fall on VERTICAL rock before this thing locks up. if you peel off a top rope route and it takes ten feet to be caught, then why not use no device at all and clip a series of knots tied along an anchored top rope. you are told to do this anyway as a back-up, but it seems like its more efficient to do this as a primary belay.
SO lead climbing on steep routes seems to be the only usefullness of this device. i would consider using it for sport or steep trad, but i would like to know some numbers. since a lead fall is fast and hard, is the catch relatively as quick as a partner belay? possibly a little less dynamic than a partner belay? this would be somewhat comforting if you are just below the second bolt (or second piece of gear) because a fall from this position will mean hitting the dirt if the rope is not locked up in time.
blake
does anyone have any figures for average falls on vertical (or steeper) rock?
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Son of Will
climber
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Aug 15, 2004 - 09:51pm PT
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It's my understanding you can return Silent Partners to Wren for inspection. I've been thinking about doing it with mine, as it's now four years old. If you do purchase the used SP it might be worth getting the check up, if anything just for peace of mind. Even better, you should ask the seller for a buy-back option in case Wren tells you it needs an expensive repair or early retirement.
I've found my SP's performance depends mostly on the diameter, condition, and stiffness or softness of the rope. Fatter rougher, cable-like, cords seem to lock off all the time during free moves. The slimmer slicker cords give much better feeds. I now have a pretty new dry treated 10mm that I try to use only with my SP, so far it's been feeding really well. For back-up knots go you'll have to play with it to find out what set up works for you. Try different biners, knots, and varying the distance between back up knots to see what you're most comfortable with. The set up Wren describes in the manual is the best way to start.
In four years I've never had a problem with mine not locking during falls, but I tend to use mine mostly on moderate single-pitch routes. Again the manual offers some good advice on falling, you can download it off the Wren site.
I really do like mine, when you live on the east coast and only have weekends it's a great way to get on the rock.
PS: Carry a jug or prussik to release the system after falls and build bomber ground anchors! I've watched other climbers step on my ropes, and I've had to ask people not to mess with my anchor from midway up the route.
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