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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 11, 2006 - 12:41pm PT
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Guess the aid-climbing mind-set just doesn't resonate with me very much, although it may be the only type of climbing that I'll be able to do much of, anymore. I'll find out later this month down in Zion with Ron. He's offered to take me along on an anniversary climb of Touchstone. It'll be my first real climb in five years. Wish me luck.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 11, 2006 - 12:45pm PT
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Wish you luck, I don't think you need it, but I will wish you a great time. Don't let Ron start telling any Don Whillans stories, they all end the same way...
Somehow this turned into a free vs. aid thing. I was trying to find out why TR-ing isn't an accepted method, and that bolting is so widely regarded as OK.
IMO bolts are second only to sponsorship as a threat to our sport and access to the places we love.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Nov 11, 2006 - 01:09pm PT
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As the thread drifts this must now be off topic, but a couple of old hand-drilled-on-lead FAs in the Valley (the Mount Washington Valley, that is). No hooks used.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 01:24pm PT
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elcapfool
I believe the reason for TR-ing isn't an accepted method is because there really isn't much of an element of surprise or unknown to top roping.
Once these sport bolt routes are up, there are always people that show up that can flash these things without ever hanging or even ever seen the route before except from the bottom.
I've seen good climbers onsight flash hard sport routes many times.
This flashing onsight sport routes seems to me the ultimate goal of the "sport route" type climbing.
I believe there is room for all of us in this climbing world.
If not, then .........?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 11, 2006 - 01:34pm PT
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EC,
I can't believe you don't see that leading is more interesting (and convenient) than toproping.
Bolts enable lots of fun climbs, but like any other tool they can be misused.
They say the same thing about my guns and bombs etc.
I don't tell Don Whillans stories but there is a certain consistency to the endings of mine as well. OMG you may be onto something.
Well, we'll see what we see when we go to aid the now "free" Touchstone.
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ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
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Nov 11, 2006 - 01:50pm PT
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Love bolting on lead. Even better on a stance. Better yet by hand drilling. These are the things I like. Seems to make a better route too.
-Warbler- Got about three pitches up on the Supper Nova Wall and came across a rapel route from the top(bolt stations every 150 feet).Are these yours? We took our line to the top. Saw some other routes up higher too.These yours too?
-Aldude- Calling every body "weak" who doesn't play your way? There are those who would call power drilling or even putting in bolts at all, "weak".Play nice, Royal is watchinig.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2006 - 04:15pm PT
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They are all different games and completely different experiences. Yosemite has a ground up tradition due to the heighth of the rock. It would be a little tough to toprope the South Face of Half Dome for instance. You could simulate a bolt lead with a toprope I guess by not pulling in the rope until the climber had gotten to a stance and fidgeted for 15 minutes or so. Then the belayer would have to feed the rope out in equal increments as the climber climbed above that stance until the climber got to the next stance and fidgeted around some more simulating a bolt placement. Somehow, I do not think it will catch on.
There are many types of rock climbing and I have enjoyed them all. It is exciting to go up on a face route with only a drill and a small rack. Stancing is scary as is getting on a hook on steep stuff when looking at a long fall. Very rewarding when you make it.
Ken
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ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
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Nov 11, 2006 - 05:40pm PT
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Warbler,Haunted House looks good. We played on the easyer corners below it to the little doctor seusse looking tree doing three short routes to the same tree. Yes, we did send the route that traverses out on the "Z" shaped dike to gain the uper corner system. My Heart sank when, after 3 hours on lead,drilling with the dullest drill bit ever, I came up to the belay and found 2 bolts placed on rapel. We we came back 2 years later and finished it.I'm over it now. The route turned out great. It goes at 5.11c A0. There are 5 aid bolts on the blank bulge to pull on, the rest is free. The 11c. is right before the aid part. It starts just left of Super Nova,5.8,5.9,5.10c,5.11c,5.10c/d,5.8,510a,5.10c, and 4th class to the top, or rapel the route(better). It's clean and classic.Lots of hand cracks. One of the better routes we have put up. It took 13 days spread over 5 years.Eric Gabel/Waren Dignes 2004. Still waiting for a second asscent!
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ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
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Nov 11, 2006 - 09:27pm PT
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Hey Warbler, I felt the same when I saw Your routes. It's Good to see people sending. I heard Elliott Robinson sent a line to the left of ours that goes to the top at 12a. all free and shares the last pitch of the Gabel/Dignes route.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2006 - 11:03pm PT
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I agree with you Warbler, it is everywhere. Good job AbelGabel! That is a nice section of rock! Nice job!
Ken
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ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
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Nov 11, 2006 - 11:57pm PT
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Thanks for the support Kevin & Ken. I often wonder if any body will repeat routes my friends and I have put up while I'm still around in the climbing world.I'm sure you guys have some good stuff you've put up that is waiting to be discovered. I can assure you that many of the best lines are still out there. It's amazing that with every line you do, 2 or 3 more lines come into focus and I know that I'll never get to them all. Once you start seeing them, they're everywere! Lower, Middle,and Lost Brother have provided enough adventure to me and my partners, for many a climbers lifetime. I feel very fortunate to have been able to have such great adventures into the unknown, while trying to piece together some obscure line. Hope people keep exploring.
-Eric
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2006 - 12:05am PT
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Eric, that is why I still live here (laziness) and why others still visit (energy).
Ken
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ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
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Nov 12, 2006 - 12:30am PT
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I know Ken, wish I was there right now. Headed up in the morning. Has the rain stopped yet?
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2006 - 12:34am PT
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YES!
Ken
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Nov 12, 2006 - 12:54am PT
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"You have not lived life until you have f*chd the gall bladder of death" (Warhol's Frankenstein)...
...Um, anyhow, hand drilling on lead is the shyte.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2006 - 01:15am PT
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Roy, I agree it is all good, and what we personally want to achieve is better for ourselves.
Ken
p.s. Ooh!
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Nov 12, 2006 - 01:49am PT
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Eric G, I take it from your defensive indignation that you are a bathooker. Can you really condone this niggardly and short sited practice. If you can start a bolt from stance why would you not tough it out and finish it in style? Why two holes instead of one?
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ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
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Nov 12, 2006 - 02:15am PT
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Aldude,
never drilled a bat hook in my life. If it could be done by stance, I'd give my last breath I had in me to do it by stance. If I have to hook, it's a natural feature. Some people do it different though.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Nov 12, 2006 - 03:01am PT
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Eric, good for you. Would you agree that there is such a thing as good style vs bad style? Should we as climbers validate or encourage bad style? " Or is it " All good, man "?
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ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
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Nov 12, 2006 - 04:24am PT
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I tried hating every body who didn't do things in "good style". Didn't get me anywere. Ended up not liking people who were otherwise my friends and good people. I miss some of them now. I like ground up, on sight, stance drilled routes. Don't mind hooking naturel features if I can't get a stance.I try to bolt only as a last resort. But thats Me. I do believe in good style, but know that most people aren't going to change, or respect me for trying to change them. I would prefer to lead by example. And No, it's not "All Good".Things people do on the rock effect me down to the core of my soul. I just try to do my best.
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