Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 31 of total 31 in this topic |
Shano
climber
921OB
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 7, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
|
ok Chachi, dry your tears, Garys not dead. But yet another one of his routes has been raped and obliterated.
'Manana' at El Cajon Mountain can be added to the already long list of smashed routes at the crag.
Gary put this one in from the ground up (as he does most of his routes), bolting on lead, stancing it all the way. He took me up it shortly after he put it up. He was SO stoked on that finish!
I climbed this again last Thanksgiving w/a friend from Potrero while 2 other friends paralleled us on Leonids; it was a good day. After climbing Manana 2 or 3 times I still can't fathom putting myself in Garys shoes and casting off from the bottom for the first time and hoping it goes. A testament to Garys skills on the rock. Stonemaster==stoneballs
Now it's just bent over smashed studs.
Such beautiful rock, such a fun face climb. Such a desecration...
Manana, no mas.
RIP
EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION:
The chop (as of Apr2009) is only in the area around the P1 anchor. Looks like about 10 bolts mid-route were stripped of hangers and bent over. From the bottom it appears as though the route is intact (it is not.) Also, The P2 anchors are there, along with the last few bolts for that pitch. As is Arts usual M.O., he has left enough of the route intact to lead someone into getting high up on route, running it out looking for the next clip and likely taking a huge fall.
It is still unclear as to how and why he finds pleasure in this method.
-s
|
|
nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
|
Any idea why the "ethics" police took action?
ground up from stances.... sheeesh.
|
|
Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
|
|
What a shame. I haven't been out there for a few years now although I used to go almost every weekend. I think part of me just doesn't want to see the destruction. :(
Josh
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
That's weak!
|
|
tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
Which ever shade of gray you choose on the bolting issue, bashing the bolts over is poor form.
If you really mean it, pull the bolts and fill the holes, for crying out loud.
I'm not into chopping routes, but this is weak sauce.
|
|
John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
|
|
This has nothing to do with ethics. It's all about revenge for perceived slights, control, and not wanting to share.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
not knowing the background, I'd say John Vawter hit the nail on the head with the reported action.
|
|
Shano
climber
921OB
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
|
ok maybe this was the wrong way to go about it...
yeah, its shitty what the criminal is doing up there. Its also pretty well documented and universally condemned. Enuf of that.
I was kinda hoping seeing Gary's name up there might snap some Stonecrusters out of their haze and fire out some good Gary stories!
I've only been climbing w/ Gary for about 3 years but my understanding is that his house in Idyllwild (back in the Nineteen SevenDaze?) was the source of certain post-climbing Bacchanalia.
Perhaps what happens in Idyllwild stays in Idyllwild... sure would like to get the dirt though! ;')
Gary's got a story for every occasion. Couple weekends ago while hiking up to the crag he described to me his send on 'The Edge' My palms were sweating just listening to it. Some guys just know how to tell a story.
Anybody got the goods on GA?
|
|
the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
"Which ever shade of gray you choose on the bolting issue, bashing the bolts over is poor form."
Yes, all you need to know is that bolts were bashed instead of removed and you know the perpetrator is in the wrong. Period. It has nothing to do with ethics and everything to do with ego or worse.
|
|
Rankin
climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
Smashing bolts is stupid. Chop them and fill the holes if you don't like them...fine. People are so stupid.
|
|
east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
|
|
sounds more like the scene at windansea or newbreak than at a normal climbing area
|
|
Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
Gary parted ways with Art several years ago. Gary is very centered guy; thoughtful and sharing. Art is on a multi-year narcissistic tantrum. To my knowledge, Art quit communicating all thoughts and feelings with other climbers and began a personal vendetta of route destruction.
Gary was the best partner one could imagine when he assisted me in completing a decade long project. El Milenio (The Millennium) on El Gran Trono Blanco 1999, Grade IV, 15 pitches, .11b
We hadn't climbed together before that and it progressed flawlessly. No problems, not even a dropped carabiner. One couldn't ask for a more solid and safe partner. He always stepped up to share the load, and with a smile.
El Milenio got him stoked with bolting on lead with my Bosch, and he has continued putting up some fine routes.
|
|
Shano
climber
921OB
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
|
Kevin - was at the base of yr route ("The More, The..." - fighting back the laughter) last wknd. Intact top to bottom. Wanted to give it a go but that bolt over the lip looked sketchmeyer. Did you guys give that a good bounce or 3?
John S. - word on that. Gary is nothing if not fun,positive vibes. Even after I told him about the vandalism this wknd he moved right on past it and told me about firing a brand new 11c we just put in. All giggling and sh#t like a teenage kid. Classic GA!
Garys the man!
|
|
Shano
climber
921OB
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2009 - 01:47pm PT
|
bump...
for a climbing thread (although there are a surprising number of climbing related topics lately - very curious...)
|
|
Hubbard
climber
San Diego
|
|
Just a few clarifications and corrections to a couple of posts made here.
1. Let’s be very clear about the “feud” at ECM. There is no feud. There is one sociopath chopping routes and that is Art Messier. When I say sociopath that means the actual definition of one i.e. controlling, power hungry, and vengeful. Not a single other person has ever chopped a single bolt at ECM except Art Messier. If you want the full history of events at this crag as well as all the others involving Art, then see the endless threads about it on sdclimbing.com. Art has chopped routes and changed routes not only at ECM but also historical routes at Mission Gorge by BVB, Rick Accamazo, and Galin Kirkwood.
2. Gary, Art, Randy and I showed up at ECM within two weeks of each other. Brian Speiwak had been working on routes by himself for a year prior to that. The rest of us went up there based on rumors of Brian’s routes. So the inaccurate statement that Art was somehow frustrated because he had been overrun after having the place to himself for a year is completely untrue. There are no clear reasons behind Art’s actions except that which he has threatened to do, to erase the whole wall. Why? We all have speculated and concluded that there is no clear pattern for his behavior, and Art isn’t telling. He has chopped different people at different times under different circumstances; some routes were top down, some ground up and the only clear consistent thread here is that Art is the chopper. If Kevin thinks Art is erasing the whole wall because I don’t acknowledge him, HUH? If you take this same logic to the Valley, then that would mean if you don’t say hi to someone in camp four, they have the right to chop your routes. It’s all ridiculous.
3. Brian established the original ECM trail. Gary, Art, Brian, myself and many others reworked the trail after the fire. Art in no way “established” the ECM trail, he merely worked on the trail as did many others.
4. I happened to be at ECM the day Art confronted Kevin on Kevin’s very first day at the crag, at Randy Leavitt’s and my invitation. I watched the whole thing. I’m wondering why Kevin would say Art gave him an apology and asked him to come back. This is what I watched happen: Kevin rapped in and bolted a route and Art went ballistic for a half hour, claiming “That’s my line!” Hence Kevin’s original name. Art in typical style ranted and raved until Kevin got flustered or angry not sure which, accidentally dropped his drill 30 ft into the grass, and shortly after that left, never to return.
It is true that Gary Anderson apologized for Art. This was also one of the last times that Gary ever spoke to Art. Gary told Art to F Off for being such a weirdo. Gary climbs with our crew now and he is a great dude and wishes he could turn the clock back and hadn’t climbed with Art or helped him with his routes. If asked, Gary can validate this information and has great insight as to what has gone down out there.
5. Last point; it is very true that I don’t want to give Art any recognition because why on earth should I. I've watched Art chop other climbers routes since the late 90's. I don't support bullies. As a result my routes started getting chopped too. It isn't about me Kevin.
Kevin wanted to change the name of his route after Art started chopping but the original name had already been published. I told Kevin if he wanted to take a shot at Art do it here on ST not through me. Instead, Kevin takes a shot at me three years later by giving implied support to Art publicly with bogus facts and some weak twisting of information making it seem as though there is some kind of “feud” between Art and myself. As if I should somehow take blame for this nightmare at ECM. Definitely weak sauce Kevin.
What is Kevin’s motive here?
Kevin and I have our history and it has nothing to do with rock climbing. I was an apprentice learning the tree trimming business under Kevin for a couple of years. I have always respected Kevin for his climbing background and history. He is also a master in the tree business and I learned a new trade through working with him. Let’s just say that he is rough to work with and I finally bailed but not before I got a few strong words off of my chest. Kevin and I are civil when we see each other but things are strained and perhaps he never quite got over the words I handed to him that day. I’m not one to air dirty laundry in public unless it’s in response to a question of my involvement. My name has been attached to some inaccurate statements.
IMHO I have worked hard for thirty years specifically on San Diego climbing, adding numerous first ascents of all styles; ground up and top down. I’ve contributed to local guide books, have a website with free topos, all in the hopes of building San Diego climbing into what it deserves to be; A world class scene. I like to share and hang with my friends like everyone else. I don’t like to spend my time on this kind of cheap BS. But at the same time I am unwilling to be steamrolled by half truths.
Why would you want to be an apologist for Art, Kevin? Do you agree with what he has done? Do all of these routes deserve to be chopped, mangled BS? Probably not.
The big tragedy here is that people were coming from out of county, out of state and even outside the nation to climb routes at ECM and they were stoked. Five star routes like the 500’ vertical “Commander” and the insane Leavitt master piece, “Pockets of Resistance” were constantly chalked and photographed during their short lives. For those of you that didn’t get to climb these routes, you are the ones that have been chopped.
CH
|
|
GDavis
Trad climber
|
|
This post is a good insight to why I never climb in San Diego if I can avoid it. Hour and a half from Idyllwild and 2 hours from Joshua tree and you people want to deal with this drama? Puh-lease.
Brian is an awesome guy, I worked for him for a little over a year and could sense the frustration that great things were destroyed. Cast not your pearls before swine, I guess. But thats why he is out in Idaho. There's a lot of rock out there, mates, and none of it is worth this high school drama.
|
|
Hubbard
climber
San Diego
|
|
Kevin,
As for the trail business, Brian made the trail. Art was out there two weeks before me and when I called Art to ask him about whether he had heard about ECM activity he said he was up there but wouldn’t tell me about Brian’s trail. At this time Art was the internet guidebook center. I didn’t know Brian at this time and like you, had to go on what Art told me until I befriended Brian and learned the truth. I consider Brian to be one of my best friends to this day. He is back in San Diego and we are still climbing together. What I wrote in a history that was sent to freinds via email that eventually was posted on RC.com by Michael Reardon years ago, only backs up the fact that Brian was the one that established the trail and had been up there for a year working on routes. Like the rest of us, Art only worked on it because he had only been up there for a couple of weeks.
Dave Kennedy is not my partner and he has a history of changing route names, not me. I contributed paintings, drawings and cartoons, he wrote the books.
If you believe what Art has to say and you think he is a sincere guy then I can’t help you there.
Your memory is a bit fuzzy Kev when it really counts. Just remember this, if you use my name and reputation for your own motives you better get it right. The facts are well documented and your perspective is wrong because the facts you present are incorrect. None of this is funny so you shouldn’t be laughing.
My post was a clarification and correction of your statements not a rant. I’m allowed to respond when you use my name inappropriately. I have stated the facts in my above post. People can read them and your post and decide for themselves.
There are plenty of people to cross reference what has happened at ECM and your perspective is based on the whole 6 hours you spent up there, butted heads with Art and ran away; against everyone else’s 6 years of having to deal with Art every week, you have no idea so don’t claim that you do.
CH
|
|
Port
Trad climber
San Diego
|
|
GDavis-
The majority of this conflict only involves ECM and San Diego climbing has a lot more to offer than just ECM. There are great climbs here and I wouldn't avoid the entire county simply because of situations regarding ECM.
Like Chis said its been three years, so when will this all end? Im dying to get on the Commander and POR so how much longer is this going to last? I cant speak for every climber in SDC but I could give a rats ass about who is at fault here or how the situation transpired as long as these routes can be re-bolted and there is a conclusion to this drama.
What would it take for this to happen?
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
Seeing all this craziness makes me real sad. We are all brothers and should be working with, and helping each other every chance we get. Were so blessed in so many ways in this country its almost not believable. On top of everything else this country has for us, you folks have some good climbing nearby. I hope you folks can all find some peace and happiness with each other at some point and get this straightened out.
Best to all
Bill
|
|
fabianschonholz
Trad climber
Thousand Oaks
|
|
I am trying to get a hold of Gary. The number I have for him is not working. Can any of you tell him that Fabian is trying to get a hold of him please.
Thank you.
|
|
Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
|
|
Just sent an e-mail to Gary, I don't know if the e-address is current.
|
|
Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
|
|
15 minutes I'll never get back.
SD!
|
|
snagglepuss
Mountain climber
|
|
Is anyone even climbing at ECM anymore?
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
Next there will be a climber reality TV show staring Art Messier and Eric Sloan. Marauding clowns managing to presently f*#k-up the future.
|
|
Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
|
|
I missed this the first time around. I had a great day climbing at ECM with Gary years ago - before this sh#t came down. Gary is a terrific guy! I hope to see him again someday.
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
|
|
I visited a friend in SD back in 75 who had slides of ECM..I think he called it El Cap and he wasn't sure if it had any routes on it...I remember doing a bike ride in Lakeside early 2000's and seeing this chunk of rock...Chopping routes sounds lame..? Human nature i suppose...? Is there a yelp page on Warbler Tree Removal..?
|
|
guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
|
|
Maybe if youall had a Hot Dog BBQ you could work this out......
"ART" sounds like a real looser...
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
|
|
Didn't Father Serra actually discover EP? He wanted a mission there, I've heard. :)
|
|
Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
|
|
Gary is a retired "professional" climber these days and at 63, he's still pulling hard. He works on his house and engineers miscellaneous projects in his machine shop.
One of the best guys I've ever met.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 31 of total 31 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!