Discussion Topic |
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 28, 2008 - 10:13pm PT
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Tune in if you can - this is a historic moment.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Aug 28, 2008 - 10:15pm PT
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No Fireworks. Talk about Boring. Why no Fireworks like Beijing?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2008 - 10:23pm PT
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There may knott be fireworks, but I think I'm inexorably falling under his spell...
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Aug 28, 2008 - 10:27pm PT
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I am listening but not hearing what I want to hear from someone who wants to be president - quit talking about what McCain wants do to and talk about what he is going to do.
I hate to say this but right now it is a vote for the lesser of two we-evils.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Aug 28, 2008 - 10:33pm PT
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Ditto.
I am with you on that one Scared Silly.
though I may still write in McKinney
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2008 - 10:33pm PT
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Please reserve judgement until he's done speaking...
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Aug 28, 2008 - 10:36pm PT
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How is he going to pay for all his promises?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Aug 28, 2008 - 10:43pm PT
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Is he using a teleprompter? I'd like to hear him speak free of the electronic assistance. I hope we have some debates so I can take a careful measure of both their debating skills and get some specifics on the issues. Both candidates need to step in front of the voting public and be forced to wing it head to head.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2008 - 10:43pm PT
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For God's sake, please STFU and let him finish the !@#$%^& speech!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Aug 28, 2008 - 10:46pm PT
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Re-shape the military????? WTF does that mean?
We have the most advanced already. Maybe he means gutting it and defunding it.
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Gene
climber
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Aug 28, 2008 - 10:50pm PT
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He's {{finally}} hitting his stride.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2008 - 10:57pm PT
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OK - Senator Obama has finished speaking...
As it stands now, I'm voting for Obama.
I mean, what's the worst thing that could happen?
Please advise.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:01pm PT
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They did have Fireworks!
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:02pm PT
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off the hook...
solid, like any ground up climber should be...
ks
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Gene
climber
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:02pm PT
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Me too, HMK, but....
More of a speech for the convention and less so for the country?
Whatcha folks think?
GM
Gotta say I did enjoy his fidgeting daughters.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:02pm PT
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Okay, so I still stand by my comments. I am sorry there was just not enough substance there. I want solid hard talk about change. Isn't that what he is suppose to be about? I just have not heard today or any night before. May be I am not listening carefully enough.
That said - he really is the better choice than the sewer hole the republicans have taken this country down.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2008 - 11:03pm PT
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I'm flipping between Fox News and CNN, and without a doubt, Fox is doing a way better job!
(look for yourself; Fox is just silently panning the crowd and taking in the moment, while the
CNN pontificators are busy pontificating, and the footage is knott nearly as good).
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:08pm PT
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Faux News had to find a black guy to tear his comments up.
Good speech IMO.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:08pm PT
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ok MORONS, his speech is over, now cut him down.
Say stupid, unsupported, trivial, things to cut him down.
Say things like oh, was he really not using a telepromter?
Say stupid things like how is he going to pay for stuff, when he just told you exactly how he was going to. Dumb asses.
Say stupid things because that's all you got.
Hey, wait, why don't you say something real stupid like you notice he was not wearing his flag lapel pin HIGH enough on his suit to make you happy, therefore he is not a patriotic american.
Yes, now is your moment, moron republicans, fill this space with some more trivial, stupid, right win crap, because that's all you got.
Hey Fatty, you still don't get it do you, moron? Go drop your friend McCain off at your toilet swimming pool.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:13pm PT
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I like Fireworks.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2008 - 11:14pm PT
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Norton, no need for name-calling.
We're all fairly personable around here.
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Gene
climber
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:14pm PT
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Norton,
Go for a walk. You are not helping the discussion.
GM
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:15pm PT
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Lighten up, Norton. It was just a party speech.
I'll be anxious to hear your comments on McCain's speech.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2008 - 11:17pm PT
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Norton - I just read your entire post... WTF are you so angry about?
Please do knott do anything rash (for the sake of the children).
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:19pm PT
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oo's Norton?
Edit: errr, oh yeah, the human labeled Norton.
Sorry
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
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My vote is with him...change is coming..jump on board or get run over.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:23pm PT
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During the Civil War a soldier at Walter Reed was being given last rites. When it was finished he said, "Now fix me." An attendant fastened the soldier's socks together with a clothespin so the legs would not flop as he was being lifted out to make room for the next casualty. Then he died.
Whatever our politics, that man's sacrifice while building our nation, requires two things of each of us today. That we too fight for our nation. And that we accept as comrades in that fight, everyone - without regard to their politics.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:24pm PT
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That was a brilliant speech! After 8 miserable years of listening to the idiot cheer leader in chief slaughter the english language it is so very refreshing to hear a lucid and intelligent statesman present his vision for America.
McCain is absolute toast. The Presidential debates will be like shooting fish in a barrel.
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:27pm PT
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My friends...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2008 - 11:31pm PT
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Philo - I wouldn't go so far as to say that McCain is "toast" - at least knott until the polls
come in over the next few days. After all, the fact that Obama and McCain have been neck
and neck to now has been someone of a concern. After all, I thought Obama would be ahead
by a lot more at this stage, considering the last knott-so-great 8 years of the Bush administration...
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Beatrix Kiddo
Mountain climber
Littleton
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:31pm PT
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Hearing him speak gives me hope. I am anxious to see what that old guy will bring to the table next week.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:33pm PT
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Ok, I took your advice and went for a walk, cooled down.
Sorry guys, I lost it. After watching his really great speech, I just started anticipating all the stupid stuff Juan and fatty and Arrow would start saying. The older I get the closer I get to zero tolerance of people like them. You are right, no need for name calling and getting hot. Sorry all!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:37pm PT
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Obama seemed very well spoken, and enunciated the broad brushstrokes of what he would do, in particular what he would do differently. McCain will have to stretch a long way to match it.
Two months to go, and I agree that debates between Obama and McCain will be important.
I suspect McCain will choose a woman as his vice-presidential candidate. There aren't many eligible blacks.
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:38pm PT
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OOO-Flipflop
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:38pm PT
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HK forget the polls. Remember they are based on land line phones. Most people have switched to cell phones which are knot polled. The polling methodology is woefully dated and inaccurate.
Barring some horrendously vile and pernicious acts by the Republican dirty tricks campaign or a black ops false flag action by the cronies of GHWB Obama will be the next President of the "UNITED" states of America.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:39pm PT
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Hardman, you are right in that Obama should not be tied with John McCain in the popular vote. Additional polling has revealed that fully 16% of American say they will NOT vote for a black man regardless, period. Racism, pure and simple, is the reason Obama is not up by 20% right now.
But, fear not, for we do not elect presidents by the popular vote, if we did Al Gore would have won. We elect by the states electoral votes, and Obama is creaming McCain there, the best website is www.realclearpolitics.com
Check out Obama's significant lead in what matters there.
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:40pm PT
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It was a brilliant speech! And it had all the right components to it. Some of the same camera angles as they used for JFK 40 years ago. Some of the same rhythm as the "I have a Dream" speech....
"It's Time for A Change"........
The best line though was 'John McCain isn't a bad person. John McCain just doesn't get it"!...........
Obama gets my vote.
Looking forward to the debates THAT'S for sure.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:42pm PT
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Now is not the time to make assumptions.
Now is the time to dig in and work until we drop.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Aug 28, 2008 - 11:49pm PT
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"The best line though was 'John McCain isn't a bad person. John McCain just doesn't get it"!........... "
Go rent the Movie American President - That line is a total ripoff.
Juan
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Aug 29, 2008 - 12:00am PT
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Pat Buchanan gushing about the speech on MSNBC.
It's interesting how the really good orators of our time, Bill Clinton and Obama, are both Democrats.
The GOP have their work cut out for them to top this. They're going to have an even tougher time if Gustav appears headed to New Orleans.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Aug 29, 2008 - 12:03am PT
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I don't think Norton got any last night.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Aug 29, 2008 - 12:07am PT
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Obama is such a far superior candidate to McCain that the rest of the world will stand back aghast and wonder what the hell is wrong with us if McCain wins.
But I have a bad feeling about this election.
I continue to be amazed at the shear volume of raw racism that I encounter; at work, buying coffee in the morning,from casual acquaintances, just all over the place. I think even in 2008 there are a large number of Americans who would not vote for a black man for president under any circumstance.
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Gene
climber
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Aug 29, 2008 - 12:13am PT
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Jeremy,
As the father of mixed-race kids, I suggest we prove them wrong. And pity them if we can't convert them. Hybrids rule.
I think our prodigal-brother, Fattrad, has a non-white kid. Right Jeff? Racism is so pre-21st Century.
GM
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Aug 29, 2008 - 12:18am PT
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Well Dafty head to the golden arches and supersize yourself. Who is this "WE" you refer to? You got a little buddy in your pocket? You must be running scared.
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Gene
climber
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Aug 29, 2008 - 12:37am PT
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Fattrad,
We're all family. We won't tell. Be a bro and let us know who McCain has picked for the second place on the ticket.
GM
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 29, 2008 - 12:37am PT
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Ummm, Fatty, that's "We want Mic! We want Mic!" It's spelt McCain, not MacCain.
Yes, it will be an interesting and challenging two months. Might as well discount the 15% who say they'd never vote for a black - they're likely almost all hard Republicans. The 10 - 20% who won't say it, but would have trouble voting for a black, are more of a concern. A few of them might normally vote Democrat.
The Democrats will likely strongly push voter registration, which for practical purposes meaning getting those who are younger, who have lower incomes or more transient lifestyles, who are immigrants, or who have black or brown skins, registered. And getting them out to vote. Which will be opposed by the Republicans by all legal and illegal means available.
The Democrats can also count on winning over many traditional conservative Republicans, who are disgusted with what their party has come to be.
I'd guess that Obama can make mincemeat of McCain in a one on one debate, and convey more vigorous and positive leadership. He is younger - can't get around that - but that has pluses and minuses. He does have to convey gravitas as he can.
Thinking Republicans, if there are any left, may want to lose the election. Bush is leaving a huge mess for whoever follows - it's similar to 1932.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Aug 29, 2008 - 12:38am PT
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Drink your Obama Cool-aid.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Aug 29, 2008 - 12:41am PT
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Well it is much tastier than McCain Drano.
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Gene
climber
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Aug 29, 2008 - 12:42am PT
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Serious question.
Everyone's throwing around percentages of American voters who won't vote for Obama under any circumstances because he is an African American. Is his parentage a real issue? Aren't we beyond that, or am I seriously deluded?
GM
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Aug 29, 2008 - 12:47am PT
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Proud to be an American again...I remember growing up in Philly and going to mostly all black school and seeing the despair in my friends eyes when MLK was killed. This is the American I thought would happen 40 years ago. What a great night in American history.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Aug 29, 2008 - 12:51am PT
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Hate to say it Gene, but you are seriously deluded on that one.
But I should say that my comments are based on personal experience rather than statistics, hopefully I'm just being unlucky in my experiences.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 29, 2008 - 01:05am PT
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Hmmm, 54 posts and not a peep out of LEB. Very mysterious. Was she mesmerized, won over by Obama?
This is worrisome.
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Gene
climber
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Aug 29, 2008 - 01:07am PT
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Jeremy,
I hope so too. My kids, who are half Asian, have never been subjected to any meaningful degree of racism. Maybe it would be different is they were half black, although, based on the experiences of their friends, I doubt it. My younger daughter's school buddies include a veritable Noah's Ark of races and combinations thereof. The only argument they have that is race based is about who has the most psycho mother. It's hilarious. So far, the Asians and part Asians are winning that battle, but not by much.
They are all in a very intensive academic program and have made bonds shaped by their shared commitment and accomplishments.
I’m rather fond of my delusion. I hope it’s contagious.
GM
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 29, 2008 - 01:07am PT
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"...I hope we have some debates so I can take a careful measure of both their debating skills and get some specifics on the issues..."
Be careful what you ask for.
Curt
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 29, 2008 - 01:34am PT
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I'm with you Warbler. All the way. If McCain can win this, then I'm seriously thinking of moving.
Love it or fix it.
Perhaps Obama can't fix it all, but I know for sure that McSame will not fix a thing.
ION, the Rebugs will cut down Obama's use of the stadium, you watch.
I know why, it'd because McSame couldn't fill a stadium if he owned the hall of mirrors.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 29, 2008 - 01:37am PT
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In the election of 1860 there were four candidates, Lincoln, Douglas, Bell, and Breckinridge. If the two splinter candidates had not run and their votes in each state were apportioned to Lincoln and Douglas as per the votes those two candidates received directly, Douglas would have won the election with 52.7% of the popular vote.
Lincoln is shown as having no recorded votes in 9 of the 32 states.
Now if a Federal suit had been pressed positing that the states had illegally interferred with the conduct of a national election, it would have appeared before a supreme court led by Justice Taney. I will leave discovery of that gentleman's voting history as an exercise for the student.
Suffice it to say America has in the past decided immensely important issues, with very close votes.
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Gene
climber
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Aug 29, 2008 - 01:40am PT
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I will leave discovery of that gentleman's voting history as an exercise for the student.
I Dred that task, Professor.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 29, 2008 - 01:41am PT
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Gene wittily nails it - the U.S. Supreme Court has for long periods been reactionary or worse. Property and privilege sitting in judgment.
Taney had an impossible decision to make in Dred Scott, though. The court had then long ceded any real strength in the political sense, and could not have provided the leadership that the politicians failed to provide. The country was too divided.
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Binks
Social climber
i am of the universe and you know what it's worth.
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Aug 29, 2008 - 01:52am PT
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Just watched Barack's amazing speech. Truly a historic moment and he delivered. The best speech I've ever seen by a candidate. It's available in HD on the DNC website. Don't settle for 2nd hand reporting... Watch the real speech!
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Gene
climber
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Aug 29, 2008 - 01:53am PT
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Mighty Hiker,
Don't know if I completely agree with you about that case. To me, the question is why did Taney go well beyond the matter adjudicated in his decision? Taney, and his court, made “law” far beyond the matter presented to them in the Dred Scott case. He could have ruled on the case as it was, and not gone as far as he went.
I apologize, it’s late and I/we are wandering.
Gawd, I hope we can put the Bush debacle behind us.
GM
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Aug 29, 2008 - 02:02am PT
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Lofty speech. Definitely moving and uplifting. I hope he can deliver, we need him badly.
GORE was f'ing amazing!!! Just awesome. I hope we have an administration with Gore in it and Wes Clark too.
I think both Obama and Biden will eviscerate McCain and whomever his VP pick is (ghastly Romney?) in the debates.
Get ready for the fear-mongering of next week.
One thing I didn't hear mentioned during the convention (aside from in Al Gore's speech) was the environment. I hope it's addressed during the debates.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Aug 29, 2008 - 02:18am PT
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Don't worry, Anders, I kicked the top bunk, she will speak up when she's ready.
The speeches have been amazing the last few days, Obama's was not one of the better ones, but it still stands up.
Is there any point in McSame selecting a running mate? Will any of us remember that, male person's, name a year from now?
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Aug 29, 2008 - 02:27am PT
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Radical said it best, WOW!
Fox News played it over and over without interuption. I arrived home from work after it was over. Thanks Fox News.
Can we retire Larry King now, please. I love CNN but like McCain, that boy is past his prime. He does call the repubs on their S$##t though.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 29, 2008 - 02:28am PT
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Top bunk! You and who else got her up there?
Edit:
Lois is apparently unfamiliar with the fact that no one prefers the top bunk. So she missed the english on that one.
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Sparky
Trad climber
vagabon movin on
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Aug 29, 2008 - 02:30am PT
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"Tonight, Americans witnessed a misleading speech that was so fundamentally at odds with the meager record of Barack Obama," spokesman Tucker Bounds said. "When the temple comes down, the fireworks end, and the words are over, the facts remain: Senator Obama still has no record of bipartisanship, still opposes offshore drilling, still voted to raise taxes on those making just $42,000 per year, and still voted against funds for American troops in harm's way. The fact remains: Barack Obama is still not ready to be President."
Sad. So very, very, sad. They just don't get it! As stated before, get ready for the fear machine to kick in next week.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 29, 2008 - 02:32am PT
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Sparky: The fear machine has already begun work.
So much for my theory that LEB was rendered speechless by Obama's speech.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 29, 2008 - 02:33am PT
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Just wow.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 29, 2008 - 02:43am PT
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I'm glad your answer to an incredible speech is a promise that your candidate will run incredibly negative fear mongering ads.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 29, 2008 - 08:56am PT
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If McCain wins, it will be because of racists, who just can't vote black no matter what, and people like Lois, who no matter how many facts you lay in front of them are too stubborn to examine the situation and reach the conclusion, which had been reached by MANY staunch conservatives, that the republicans have NOT served ANYONE's interest but the rich for the last 30 years.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Aug 29, 2008 - 10:27am PT
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The argument that Obama doesn't have the experience to be President is a red herring that smells like doodoo.
What were GW Shrub's qualifications?????
A poor student cheerleader and college screw up.
A drunk and womanizing coke whore.
A military deserter.
A repeatedly failed businessman.
And govenor of Texas.
Look at what we got from that stellar resume.
Obama is more than qualified and will be a GREAT PRESIDENT!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 29, 2008 - 10:51am PT
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"You know your going to win the Presidency when the simple minded start making excuses why their candidate won't win on the same thread celebrating his nomination. "
This post is so ironic I think the universe probably ran out of irony for a few minutes after it was made.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Aug 29, 2008 - 10:54am PT
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you guys still following this election crap? the american public voted bush & co in twice. they are clueless enough to vote mccain. were f*#ked regardless of the pep rally type speeches.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Aug 29, 2008 - 11:05am PT
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Actually the BushCo political machine stole two elections in a row.
Back Atcha.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Aug 29, 2008 - 11:21am PT
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DaftRat none of the talking heads thought Bill Clinton could turn around the disaster of Reagan/Bush either. Yet history proved them wrong as it will you. Whirled peas to you.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Aug 29, 2008 - 11:24am PT
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Obama is no Bill Clinton.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Aug 29, 2008 - 11:26am PT
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What's your point Chaz. Didn't you hate blow job Bill anyway?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Aug 29, 2008 - 11:42am PT
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You are right Jeff, besides peace and prosperity, a balanced budget and a budget surplus Clinton didn't do much.
Obama is no more a socialist than McCain is a facist.
We want Mac, we want Mac, we want Mac...to gracefully retire.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Aug 29, 2008 - 11:54am PT
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I thought it was a good speech, but not a great one.
I liked the fire in it, though.
GO
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 29, 2008 - 12:15pm PT
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Chaz- lol that you are idolizing Bill Clinton.
LEB- Yes we are all aware. It's because Repubs haven't had anything to run on other than fear and character assassination for a good long time.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Aug 29, 2008 - 02:44pm PT
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LEB-Mariano is past his prime, time to send him and the GOP to she showers. We're going to the bullpen and calling in our ace, I wouldn't recommend crowding the plate either.
Edit: Ooops, my freudian slip is showing, I meant to say "the showers", not "she" showers...how embarrassing!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 29, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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"solid, like any ground up climber should be..."
I love the analogy, and I loved the speech.
I can't wait to see how feeble and mealy-mouthed McCain's will be.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Aug 29, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
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lowest being so enamored with this pick is all you need to know about the both of them.
many of the republicans were in general not so happy with mccain before this. i see karl rove all over this pick, same mentality that thought hariet miers would be a great pick and a slam dunk for the supreme court, same mentality that thought karen hughes would be the best person to try to change the minds of the greater muslim world about their view of american policy... wow, just wow.
you can use several arguments to try to convince yourself and others that it somehow makes sense, but in hindsight this will be a huge turning point- (end quote, insert disagreeing comment here)
get the fire extinguishers out baby!
these guys are going down in flames!
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hey on the bright side, betchya she can log onto the internet!
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Aug 30, 2008 - 06:31pm PT
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The Chosen One!
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Aug 30, 2008 - 09:05pm PT
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Obama is clearly the only choice this time around, but get off it, he's just a politician, not a messiah (I didn't miss the tone in the post above, not calling him on it)
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Aug 30, 2008 - 09:10pm PT
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I agree Jaybro, I'm trolling the righties.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Aug 30, 2008 - 09:18pm PT
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I'm with you Mtn, just wanted to have that clear! clink!
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Aug 30, 2008 - 09:18pm PT
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we want mccain!
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we want mccain!
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we want mccain!
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we want mccain!
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we want mccain!
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we want mccain!
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we want mccain!
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we want mccain!
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we want mccain!
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we want mccain!
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