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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Mar 29, 2008 - 05:57pm PT
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Scott,
Take a deep breath and reread the article. I'm pretty sure that's not what happened. But, just to be sure, Doug's on here from time to time and I'm sure he'll post up. If I see him, I'll ask...
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 29, 2008 - 06:55pm PT
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1000 bolts with coz's name on them.
Some glue-on holds for ambivalence.
A shock kit at the base with mental relaxant drugs for those who will freak when they see.
Something for the heart too, a defibrillator, to revive the weak hearted.
Hahahaha Coz .......
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 29, 2008 - 06:58pm PT
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And the NPS didn't notice a thing while it was all happening...
Edit: I'm not in any way criticizing the climb or climbers. From the account in the magazine, it sounds like they're very capable, and did a fine job. I somehow suspect that DR wouldn't hold still for any nonsense, too.
But I may have been teasing Coz. Werner started it.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 29, 2008 - 07:09pm PT
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Fer Cripe's Sake Coz! -how could you let a thing like that happen?
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 29, 2008 - 07:22pm PT
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RE:
"A shock kit at the base with mental relaxant drugs for those who will freak when they see. "
LOL!
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Mar 29, 2008 - 07:25pm PT
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Does the NPS have regs against hand bolting on rap? I sure wasn't aware of it, if they do.
This is what I can say as far as my involvement with this project is concerned. We did the first half of the route trad style, ground up, and installed 10mm stainless two-bolt anchors for every pitch at stances. That Half Dome granite is the hardest granite I've ever seen, with numerous 30 minute holes and broken bits.
I don't know if you've been up there Anders, but that upper face can be pretty deceiving. Ask Hank. Sean and Doug made some hard decisions in the interest of the quality of the route, which, in my opinion is a lot more important 100 years from now than how big your balls are. What they will remember is that it is not a shwag route.
This is only MY opinion, I don't speak for anyone but myself, but I feel like when you're getting into 5.13 slab territory, only having a bolt every 60-70 feet, 'cause that's where the micro potato-chip "jug" you stood on to drill a shitty sketched-out bolt from, doesn't cut it.
We decided to preview the top half in a 900 foot single line rappel, and I'm glad we did, because only in having done that, did we see that the line we WERE going to take, some enticing vertical rib/dikes from the end of the arch, ran out into complete blankness after 500 feet. I'm glad we didn't put in the time, and scar the rock in the process for a "mistake" route. As it is, on that preview, we found a counter-intuitive line that is of absolute quality, and you won't break your back or smash your body if you fall. Regrettably, I had to return to my work with the Park Service in Tuolumne, or I would have helped Sean and Doug bolt that upper wall.
Go climb it. It's awaiting a second ascent. Report back here.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 29, 2008 - 07:25pm PT
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The second "gold rush" is on!
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 29, 2008 - 07:38pm PT
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Wow.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 29, 2008 - 07:45pm PT
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ding ding!
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Mar 29, 2008 - 07:54pm PT
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Didn't mean to bum you out bro, just thought you needed some answers. I can e mail you Sean's phone number, if you want to talk about it the old-school way, instead of on the internet.
As for the spray article, Doug's a writer. He writes.
That's a slippery slope there, talking about a second cable route.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Mar 29, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
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Oh well, its a big rock, a few more bolts ain't gonna tip it over.
Inquiring minds want to know the more vital underlying subtexts.
What was their carbon footprint?
Did they contribute to the erosive effects of industrial tourism, or support the local product economy?
Is Sean still with Maggie?
Does ol' Doug get with the groupies on the slide show tour?
These are the vital questions.
Peter
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marky
climber
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Mar 29, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
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he probably meant via ferrata
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 29, 2008 - 08:06pm PT
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OMFG ..... I think Walt's coming out of the ground.
The fuking end is here for sure, eeeeeaaahhhhhh eeerrrggghhh!
Huh?
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Mar 29, 2008 - 08:06pm PT
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Peter, Ben Montoya here. Sean and Maggie are still bomber, as always. How have you been? I haven't seen you in a while.
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
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Mar 29, 2008 - 09:14pm PT
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Out with the old, in with the new. Tomes change. Dont dwell in the past.
Ok, thats what some people would say.
NOT ME!! HOly crapbags!!!Why would anyone defile a rock like Half Dome? Too many self righteous types in the climbing community now.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 29, 2008 - 09:20pm PT
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Wow!
Brilliant!
Two cable routes!
You could make one the "up" and the other the "down"...
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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Mar 29, 2008 - 09:22pm PT
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just grid bolt the entire thing and be done with it. It's the direction of climbing so why fight it? In fact, for the routes that don't go I suggest bolting on holds. Just be sure to keep the red route under 5.10+ so I can send.
I'm gonna have to read the article I suppose. I'm curious.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Mar 29, 2008 - 09:40pm PT
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talk about politico....ssssss
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 29, 2008 - 09:43pm PT
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Something smells here...
Why is this any different from the WOS debacle? Who's gonna take the dump this time?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 29, 2008 - 10:04pm PT
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Personally, I don't see the value in restricting routes on Half Dome to strictly ones with dangerous runouts. Should every harder route be equipped to only get an ascent every 5-8 years? It just ain't possible to make certain routes ground up with any kinda safety (or even without safety)
Ya got your Southern Belle, yur Autobahn, and this route. Something for every taste.
and it's not like you see the bolts on one from the lack of bolts on the other.
It's ironic that there's a morality police that's ready to condemn one act of climbing when other morality police have themselves condemned the first morality cop's ascents in the past to boot.
Whatever your form of climbing, aid (most destructive and free standards increase all the time) power drilling, hang-dogging, siege climbing, rap bolting, even using chalk, topos or cams. They've all been dissed in the past. It could be argued that any use of a hammer for anything is beating the rock into submission.
For every cry that climbing is getting dumbed down, there is a bold ascent and a standard exceeded. Doesn't mean everybody has to do it that way.
Peace
Karl
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 29, 2008 - 10:35pm PT
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"Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase."
-MLK
A abhor political commentary on this forum, but Karl, I gotta ask, would you condone a rap-established route next to the Nose (for example) that was glued plastic from toe to summit? A "climber" in the future might argue this was the best way to do a FA free-solo route on the Captain. As you said, "Something for every taste."
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Mar 29, 2008 - 10:43pm PT
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Would that be The Hole unNatural Art of Protection?
Har har.
Got to see some of the pic's of that route. Whew. Looks pretty neat. Then we shared some beta on rap bolted routes.
Cheers, Doug!
-Brian in SLC
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Mar 29, 2008 - 10:52pm PT
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5.13 slab???? I don't really like the idea of rap bolting anything, but I just don't have the danglers for 5.13 slab or much of any other kind of 5.13, so...I guess it only bothers me in a dislocated kind of way. But then, the whole WOS thing didn't really bug me that much either. It's all just blowin' til somebody goes up there, does it, and then says it sucks. Probably wouldn't change much anyway...
Climb on brothers, climb on.
B
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Mar 29, 2008 - 10:55pm PT
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Does the NPS have regs against hand bolting on rap?
Nah, but they might be bummed if you used a power drill, on El Cap, for instance.
Where's Dingus?
Ha ha.
-Brian in SLC
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 29, 2008 - 10:57pm PT
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"A abhor political commentary on this forum, but Karl, I gotta ask, would you condone a rap-established route next to the Nose (for example) that was glued plastic from toe to summit? "
There's obviously a limit to everything and extreme examples merely make obvious what is a judgement call...Where is the line?
I'll tell you this much: The retro bolts that all those who freeclimbed the Nose have clipped, I doubt very much that they were placed from stances or even hooks.
Peace
Karl
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 29, 2008 - 11:26pm PT
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A dozen postcards says this thread will quickly pass 100 posts.
I have always (just ask my kids) said I don't care what someone believes in or practices (bestiality, bathhouse glory holes, veganism, smoking a pipe, Jehovah's Witness, chewing tobacco, Branch Davidian, Republican, etc.) just as long as they don't push it in my face and tell me I am wrong for not being a believer. Do whatever you want, whenever you want, but please remember that there are others who do not go with your flow.
Devil's advocate for a moment...
1. New bolts are placed on old aid routes to make them safer and doable. This seems an accepted practice. So would it be wrong to place bolts on an established free route so it can be done as a practice aid route? The bolts would not change the holds of the free route. Free climbers do not need to clip them.
2. Has anyone ever led Nabisco on aid? Would we allow them to do that or laugh them out of the Park?
3. If bolts are placed on an old aid route to make it a free route would it be wrong to chop the new bolts to return the route to its original state?
4. Is FREE higher on the climbing structure than AID? Yes, I think most would say so. But are free climbers allowed more freedoms than aid climbers? When will we close the Salathe to people who cannot do it all free?
5. Very few people "enjoy" a long runout. But what is an acceptable runout? If the runout was 35 feet on the FA and the second ascent determines the route would see more ascents if it had five foot runouts would they be wrong to add the bolts on rap? Sport climbers have shown us that bolts placed at one-meter intervals are acceptable since they produce hard routes that advance technique. Those short runouts seem to help the popularity of the routes.
Again, everyone is free to do what they feel is in their own best interest. Who am I to say, "she's right. You're wrong. That route stays as is. That one needs to be chopped." The community (climbing, religious, political, sexual, etc.) will establish and modify the acceptable guidelines as times change. Hopefully in climbing, the end result will be routes many people can enjoy in a safe way without death leads and without hand-holding arrows painted on the rock showing the direction to the next clip for many eons to come.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Mar 30, 2008 - 12:22am PT
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How many Pin_Bolts™™™ were used???
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Mar 30, 2008 - 12:43am PT
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This thread has asked the wrong question.
What is a sufficient level of adventure to justify any climbing action?
If we could answer that, then we could determine much.
but to say there is no adventure in those routes is probably mistaken, but also to not try more adventure (as a principle) is mistaken. The real story is somewhere in between, and we sure don't have it here.
ok, i'm outta this one. done posted too much in WOS anyways.
cheers, all, see you at the crags.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2008 - 12:43am PT
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Now this is what us outsiders sign up for - new lines, big names, old controversies rekindled, and sparks flying. And yes, where is Mimi, et al. with their enduring outrage? How many micro-flakes were sacrificed? Or, is this the case that finally proves once and for all that WOS was really about the climbers and not the climb?
And who knows, maybe it really was a desert up there on those slabs, where quality routes can only be found through a process of diligent 'rap discovery' - a term we clearly need to add to the climbing lexicon given the dawn of what promises to be a new era of hidden Valley gems.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 01:06am PT
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".... the end result will be routes many people can enjoy in a safe....."
Not all routes are meant to be safe or enjoyed by many people.
They are are "there" whether one enjoys or not, if it's safe or not.
Routes have soul ......
You can cover that soul, with ignorance, passion, and goodness.
And, .... you can come face to face with that soul when you transcend those 3 modes and come to pure goodness.
The best and most beautiful pearls lie in the deepest ocean.
Half way ground up, and the second half top down, how ironic on one of the most beautiful faces in America.
It faces east were the suns first rays illuminate to reveal the truths ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2008 - 01:26am PT
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"Half way ground up, and the second half top down, how ironic..."
Are you implying the route was ground down to achieve success?
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Mar 30, 2008 - 01:48am PT
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If I remember correctly, The R&I article states that the upper headwall was mostly 11+ climbing. These guys were obviously capable of climbing well past that level, especially after pre inspection. Once the continuous line was discovered, might it not have been worth at least an attempt to do it on the lead? You can always ad bolts to your route after the fact, in order to make it safe for the "masses" if that's what you'd like. They did a kick ass job on the lower part of the route, so whats wrong with a 6 or 7 pitch classic that you have to rap from?
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marky
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 03:46am PT
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"I'm a Texan living in Boulder"
this HAS to be the name of some route somewhere
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho
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Mar 30, 2008 - 08:02am PT
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Please give to the grid bolting association.
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Riotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, Arizona
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:27am PT
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This is a good discussion. I would much rather see climbers arguing among themselves than have some government agency telling us what is an acceptable method of first ascent.
I will say, as a first ascentionist, that I have personally botched some of the routes I've established on lead. The end result, in some cases, would have been better if I had rap bolted.
The route in question is unique, and it does set a bit of a precedent in Yosemite, which despite a few rap bolted lines, remains a ground up area (IMHO).
So, keep hashing it out, it is worth careful consideration.
What will the future of climbing in Yosemite be. And, who will make the rules, climbers or the government???
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:04am PT
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I wonder if others have scoped that route but decided to pass or hold off on it until they could do it in good style?
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:37am PT
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Most of this boils down to what people consider to be an adavance or improvement in climbing standards and practices. That, in turn, is informed by your particular values. If adventure, risk and all that other stuff are th key aspects in your experience, you'll look to go bolder than those who came before. If security and knowing outcomes beforehand is important to you, tradition becoms meaningless and you do whatever is necessary. I don't think either camp is a fixed thing and I've climbed routes by both means.
One of the things I most regret is not jumping onto the South Face of the Dome back when I was climbing all the time. We planed for it once and intended on putting a team together of Suicide dime masters but for whatever reason we never did . . .
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:44am PT
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Anybody have an example of a 5.13 slab climb of over a dozen pitches that's been done ground up?
Does anybody have the routefinding skill to see, without previewing, if a section of slab would be 5.13 or impossible? If not, would establishing a (sparsely) bolted line to nowhere be admirable or a blight on the stone.
Seems to me that it's one thing to shame a route for what it leaves for others versus to blame it for the perceived lack of risk the first ascensionists took.
Some routes are established with a public service mentality. There are pros and cons to that. Many climbers put up routes that are below their limits. Once bolt protection is required by a route, the FA party has to decide for all who follow, how accessible their route will be.
Personally, I'm glad there are routes like Galactic Hitchiker (39 pitches on the Apron) that are designed to be climbed by those who lead that same grade.
Southern Belle certainly has admirable qualities but it could also be said to occupy a beautiful piece of stone in a way that's reserved for very few. There are pros and cons to that too.
I think there's room for both and certainly room on the South Face of Half Dome.
To me, this is pretty evocative of the whole "Robbin's-Dawn Wall controversy", where Royal prejudged a route based on his perceptions of what "should" exist in that location based on tradition.
Many of the folks who railed against sport climbing, hangdogging, and the rest have gone on to do plenty of it.
There are those who have the skills to repeat the route and make a real judgement of it's merits or demerits. I'd applaud that.
Peace
Karl
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:46am PT
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Before I get all worked up about this I would like to hear from Doug Robinson and anybody else who has actually climbed this aleged autrocity. Then again, it is Sunday so feel free to continue with the sermons.
Cracko
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:49am PT
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I say live and let live.
Let's hope the protagonist's of these opposing styles do an honorable and quality job, whatever the project.
We still see an adversarial/combative mentality from both camps, which sometimes borders on the absurd.
For example, a buddy of mine from Boulder, seeking to justify his rap route designs, said to me:
"Ground up? Nobody does that anymore!".
That's just an untenable statement: you get stuff like that from both sides.
Realistically, all he had to say was, "this is how I am going to do it."
Silly.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 12:02pm PT
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I'm not against sport climbs or rap bolting, they have their places.
But rap bolting a big wall? Especially Half Dome should never be done.
Leave the big walls alone. If the south face of Half Dome can't be climbed ground up then don't bother. Leave it.
If Half Dome can't be be climbed from the ground up for a hundred years then so be it. Leave it alone.
If the South face of Half Dome has only 4 routes to the top and they are all horrendous death routes, then so be it. Respect!
Respect. Climbing is not suburbia, although that's where the modern trend is going.
I've always wanted to free climb the south face of Half Dome, but I never thought I was good enough, so I walked on past and respected that great masterpiece standing there.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Mar 30, 2008 - 12:03pm PT
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Tar,
Reminds me of the time I was in wales climbing Left Wall and Cenotaph with a friend when up walked Wolfgang Gullich to climb "Lord of the Flies". I watched as he quickly moved up this crimpfest until about ten feet from the top where he started fidgeting with a small nut to protect the last moves. He couldn't get anything in and then starts jabbering in German to a friend on the ledge below to get him the appropriate nut and climb to the top and lower it down. Gullich hung on nothing for a good ten minutes until his buddy got to the top and lowered down the appropriate micro nut. He then placed it and powered to the top. A brit climbing next to us said, "Bloody ell.....he didn't free it !!" Talking about absurd !!
Cracko
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Mar 30, 2008 - 12:11pm PT
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Werner,
Don't want my post above to be construed as support for this new route, just commenting on how absurd our style/ethics debates can get. I agree with you and will continue walking past 90% of the lines I see knowing there's no chance !!!
Cracko
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 12:11pm PT
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Before I get all worked up about this I would like to hear from Doug Robinson and anybody else who has actually climbed this aleged autrocity. Then again, it is Sunday so feel free to continue with the sermons.
Ha ha! Nice one, more of these people do need to just head outside.
When I first read that artical it just didn't seem quite right. Not trying to be judgmental here, I mean, it's the original "Cleanmeister Doug Friggan Robinson" up there and he's loudly and proudly tooting this new routes horn.....hmmm. Surprised some of you are not yanking about the bolt placed next to the crack picture either.
I too was wondering if a ground up line of bat-hook holes and various pin scars which the next 5000 climbers could have beat out really would have been better. I know they would not have been. I'm not passing judgment as much as watching what appears to be the inevitable change coming. Like what Ron said, as I suspect this will allow others the mental ability to now say " Hey, if Doug and those guys can preinspect and rap bolt over there...then it's fine over here for me".
Now, I got to go as it warming up finally, I'm heading out myself for a little rapping and cleaning effort. Don't think it needs bolts though.
Take care all!
Bill
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b.p.
climber
bishop
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Mar 30, 2008 - 01:23pm PT
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"Old School" means style dictated by respect..for the stone, the environment, the people.
"New School" means safety achieved at all costs.
"Old School" is concerned with the Way.
"New School" is concerned with the Goal.
"Old School" IS a school of thought, a way of living.
"New School" IS a sport.
"Old School" will keep you honest.
"New School" will make you arrogant.
There is no Right and Wrong. There is only Choice.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 30, 2008 - 01:30pm PT
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Bp...it's obvious you were not around when old school was old school.
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b.p.
climber
bishop
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Mar 30, 2008 - 01:39pm PT
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bob d'antonio, may i ask which part makes you think i was not around when old school was old school?
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Mar 30, 2008 - 01:40pm PT
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how the times have changed!
it is almost 14 years ago when the Coz, Eppi and i got busted on top of the Muir wall. the slaggin that we got went on for quite a while for drilling with power tools to replace manky bolts and add a few on our variations and not add bolts to the original line...what most people never recognized was the fact that we had never done the muir (never previewed pitches) and wanted to do it in the style of old school yos big walls. From the bottom to the top...and gain an adventure and show the wall the respect it deserves.
It is a sad day when the valley becomes the same as any other sport crag. When big walls go free and the aid routes lose the flavor of adventure with the many bolts added. When you can climb 1/2 dome with a rack of draws and a few cams, the SOUL of the ADVENTURE is gone! Climbing has never been a SPORT to me, but an adventure with flavor that i wish to taste every time i climb!
But, everyone has their right to express their vision and craft what they seem as the proper path. I am not perfect and have made many mistakes in my climbing life, so it is hard to express too much outrage, but it is much easier to express disappointment with the vision of todays climbers...
is it asking too much to keep a few walls left to adventure and keep the sport climbing to the crags in a place like the valley that is steeped in history and adventure?
Where i live now in the SE, when this type of route is done on North Carolina big walls, it is immediately chopped, patched and the authors strongly chastised in the community. Out west they get the cover shot and the sponsorships and slide shows..
ks
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:12pm PT
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Wow, I'm shocked and surprised to read the posts before me:
The Kid: "Climbing has never been a SPORT to me, but an adventure with flavor that i wish to taste every time i climb!"
Is that the same kid who established 5.13+ sport routes in Rifle and put El Portrero Chico on the map?
Werner: " I'm not against sport climbs or rap bolting, they have their places. But rap bolting a big wall? Especially Half Dome should never be done. Leave the big walls alone."
Wait, let me get this straight: you're not against sport climbing, but then again you are. Okay...
And then there's Ken: "To me, this is pretty evocative of the whole "Robbin's-Dawn Wall controversy", where Royal prejudged a route based on his perceptions of what "should" exist in that location based on tradition. Many of the folks who railed against sport climbing, hangdogging, and the rest have gone on to do plenty of it."
Thank god somebody around here seems to speak with a consistent voice! I think Ken has put a spike through the heart of the issue: if you're so aroused by the notion of this route, why don't you go up and judge for your phuckin' self. Put down the gossip rags and climb. Afterwards, if you still hate it, then lets have it out. But I'd venture to guess there's still about 10 acres of granite on that face that offer plenty of adventure.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:15pm PT
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BP...because your little blip is more romantic than truth.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:20pm PT
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I hear a lot of "assumption" coming from the self-tagged "old-school", and you all know what happens when you make an assumption. Let's all just take a deep breath here.
Somehow, in about 50 posts, the climb (of which no one but four people have any first hand knowledge) has gone from a half trad, half bolted face route, to a sport route, to a via ferrata, and finally, to a bolted crack.
Wow.
Bottom line- until YOU have done the route, it is all just conjecture. I would advise all to exercise some constraint.
It is not a "grid-bolted "sport" route. That is laughable, and it makes you sound ignorant. It pains me seeing people in our small community slinging mud, especially when we all have things other people can take offense at.
One of Royals biggest regrets was getting worked up into a froth over shield-rattling hot air on the ground, only to find a challenging, hard and beautiful route once there was some air under his heels on the dawn wall. We can all learn from his mistake of rushing to judgement.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:21pm PT
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i find adventure every day that i go climbing and do it for adventure and not for sport. even when i am bolting lines in rifle and mexico. it's about the line, the style and adventure that comes with it. 90% of the lines i bolted in rifle were ground up as were about 80% of what i bolted in mexico. Sport is the by product of those adventures in my eyes..
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:22pm PT
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Kurt wrote: Where i live now in the SE, when this type of route is done on North Carolina big walls, it is immediately chopped, patched and the authors strongly chastised in the community. Out west they get the cover shot and the sponsorships and slide shows..
Kurt....just because you did something a certain way doesn't make it right or wrong.
A lot of assumptions going on in this thread...the truth is more than likely no were near what some people are saying.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:27pm PT
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WB said, "But rap bolting a big wall? Especially Half Dome should never be done. "
Gotta agree with him on that one...
Southern Belle had a first "ascent"...
A rap bolted route never does - it's always gonna be an invisible top rope...
Just my opinion, jb
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martygarrison
Trad climber
atlanta
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:31pm PT
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how classic would the NA wall have been if Royal rapped from the top to finish it, because it might be too dangerous. geeze come on folks this is a travesty.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:34pm PT
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Doug Robinson isn't some kinda bad boy (like Harding) is he?
Sean Jones is a Yosemite local who knows the place.
Perhaps we should be asking more questions in the beginning and making less sweeping statements.
It's true Kurt and Coz got way more slagging at Muir time than they warranted.
Why is the climbing community so ready to think the worst of people, even those we "previously" knew and respected.
I'm sure we'll get more of the other side of the story soon.
Half Dome is a more pristine area of Yosemite but most of the routes on the face went up with plenty of aid, nailing, and bolting, and when you look at the pioneer route on the South Face, it was called into ethical question at the time too: bat hook ladders up blank stone. (that's better than freeing it with rap bolts?)
At least this one is free
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:36pm PT
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"how classic would the NA wall have been if Royal rapped from the top to finish it, because it might be too dangerous. geeze come on folks this is a travesty."
Would have been pretty revolutionary if he had freed the route at the time.
All this goes way back. How many days did Harding spend sieging the Nose? Routes like the Nose don't need the top down inspection cause you can see the cracks from the base (and you can bet it was inspected that way) Slabs are too subtle for that.
Two sides to every coin. We may look bad at all the hammering we've done in Yosemite as the real long term damage done to the stone.
Peace
Karl
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:37pm PT
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the NA would still be classic, but a lot less pin scarred...don't you agree?
Ever hear about Gandhi, kids, and sugar?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:39pm PT
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"Does anybody have the routefinding skill to see, without previewing, if a section of slab would be 5.13 or impossible?"
Let me re-write this statement just a tad:
"Does anybody have the route-finding skill to see, without previewing, if a section of rock would be A4 or A5?"
Sure! It's been done countless times on El Cap and Half Dome. No need for Bridwell et al to rap down the PO to know it would be intricate and hard from the ground up. He just did it. The various routes on the Porcelain Wall are less than obvious from the ground but no one felt it necessary to rap them first.
Some might argue that you cannot compare doing hard aid on the FA lead with hard free on the FA lead. Crap! They are both an exploration of the unknown; just with different techniques.
Someone once wrote these words:
"Besides leaving alone what one cannot climb in good style, there are some practical corollaries of boldness in climbing. Learning to climb down is valuable for retreating from a clean and bold place that gets too airy. And having the humility to back off rather than continue in bad style--a thing well begun is never lost. The experience cannot be taken away. By such a system there can never again be "last great problems" but only "next great problems."
And I still say something smells a bit off here... There is a picture in the article of the South Face clearly showing the Harding/Rowell arch (like you could ever miss it) with the caption, "The new Route 'Growing Up' (Vi 5.13a a0) takes the prominent left-leaning arch, then bangs straight up the bald face for some 1,000 feet..." That reads like a Cliff Notes topo for the South Face route.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:43pm PT
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I think I get what u say klaus; but here's something to ponder...how many people climb as well as you do (even off the couch).
but yall know me; more harding than rr. Remember who said "It was a route...worth bolting for..." anyhooz. A famous VC...
(Courtesy Raydog iirc)
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:45pm PT
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Ihateplastic- They are separate arches. The description of the So. Face route in the old guide was/is in error.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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Marty, it wasn't rap-bolted for safety. The assumptions here are mind-boggling. It is not a sport climb. Bolts on the upper face were put in on rappel so that the route would be quality and the bolts would be in the right places.
You know, I've been reading a lot of Cormac McCarthy lately, and one thing I appreciate is that the protagonists, ranch hands and cowboys, only share their opinions based on first hand experience. They don't comment on anything they don't have first hand proof of. It's very noble, and as a consequence, their words have actual weight.
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ec
climber
ca
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Mar 30, 2008 - 03:01pm PT
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..."But every climb is not for every climber; the ultimate climbs are not democratic. The fortunate climbs protect themselves by being unprotectable and remain a challenge that can be solved only by boldness and commitment backed solidly by technique. Climbs that are forced clean by the application of boldness should be similarly respected, lest a climber be guilty of destroying a line for the future's capable climbers to satisfy his impatient ego in the present -- by waiting he might become one of the future capables. Waiting is also necessary; every climb has its time, which need not be today.
..."And having the humility to back off rather than continue in bad style - - a thing well begun is not lost. The experience cannot be taken away. By such a system there can never again be "last great problems" but only "next great problems." - Doug Robinson, The Whole Natural Art of Protection
Of course Doug once told me, "Be careful of what you read."
 ec
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2008 - 03:03pm PT
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Different arch? Well, okay... there are two big ones back there. For the record I was referring to Galen's comments in an old AAJ as to location.
While it may be true there are only four people who have intimate details of the route that does not change the manner in which it was done. It may well be a fantastic route with fantastic rock and fantastic leads and fantastic anchors where, "You could climb anywhere up that wall! 5.10c--no more than .10c, dude!" (Sean Jones.)
On one point I wholeheartedly agree... let's get up there and repeat this route. Do the same with WOS. Then offer comment. If the routefinding and aid on WOS is stellar then let's all sing the praises of the FA team. If the second ascent team announces the 1/2-Dome route is stellar but could have been led ground up then we have the information we need to further the discussion.
I just hope this is not the start of an explosion of top rope big wall climbs...
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2008 - 03:10pm PT
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e.c. Did Doug ever tell you, Be careful of what you write.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 30, 2008 - 03:17pm PT
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That wall has had only a couple of routes in the 40 years since Rowell and Harding went up and had to get rescued. And those couple of routes have each had only a few ascents.
It's not like folks are lining up to do ground up test pieces on that face. I bet this route doesn't see alot of traffic either. The climbing is hard and the approach is long. Most people just aren't that in to slabs. How many ascents/attempts has the much more accessible Hall of Mirrors seen?
One could argue that you should just have left the wall completely alone, but then one could argue that about any route that involves altering the rock, whether with pins or bolts on lead.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 30, 2008 - 03:20pm PT
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Klaus wrote: What a fukking hypocrite this Robinson is. Really a shame.
People and methods change...even in climbing. How fukking boring would it be if it didn't.
You don't seem so concern with the rock as to the style. El Cap has been beaten into submission a million times with a lot more damage.
Who really is the hypocrite??
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 30, 2008 - 03:25pm PT
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b.p.
climber
bishop
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Mar 30, 2008 - 03:45pm PT
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Bob d'antonio,..."because your blip is more romantic than realistic"...thank you for clarifying.
I agree, it is... but then, I was generalizing over the principles we try to operate by.
The reality is indeed...a matter of opinion, as this whole vociferous discussion testifies.
At the end of the day, I repeat, there are no Rights and Wrongs, only Choices.
Because, Rights and Wrongs belong to words, the domain of the ego.
Whereas, Choices belong to actions, the domain of the spirit.
Words, like egos, fade easily. Actions, like the spirit, tend to endure.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Mar 30, 2008 - 04:00pm PT
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Billygoat, ten acres today, nine tommorrow, then eight. In 30 years time it could all be banged out huh? Then there will be zero real estate back there. Nothing for the climbers of that day who will be climbing at levels we can't even imagine. Climbing as a sport BTW, will still be in its infancy.
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Mar 30, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
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My point was that there is plenty of rock up there and in general for routes of all styles. And there still is. If you don't like what's up there, go do something that you do like.
I do, however, have one concern. As I understood it, they maintained the style of Southern Belle, and expanded the possibilities by freeing (ground up) what had originally been aided. The stuff that was bolted on rap was new territory, ya? I would like some clarification about that, as I do think there is a significant difference between establishing a piece of art (a route) in one's own style and trying to alter a previously established route to conform to one's own desires.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Mar 30, 2008 - 04:41pm PT
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"Bottom line- until YOU have done the route, it is all just conjecture."
What's "just conjecture?" It's not just conjecture per the methods used on the Half Dome climb. The "just conjecture" angle implies that if only I had climbed this route I wouldn't be concerned with how it was established. This thread is about whether the means actually mean anything or whether they are just meaningless abstractions that become moot or needless providing the route is a Jim Dandy or is otherwise technically out there.
I'm sure the route is a great one - that's not what folks are arguing about.
JL
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Matt M
Trad climber
Tacoma, WA (Temp in San Antonio)
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Mar 30, 2008 - 06:02pm PT
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Why is rapping down a route to ensure you can link pitches free and with minimal bolting WORSE than climbing a route ground up, finding out the features don't link and A) Having the route not top out or B) Drilling bolt ladders to "connect the features"
Why is reducing impact while improving quality viewed with such disdain? Because it reduced the "adventure" of the first ascent?
Would a ground up route to nowhere receive more respect and accolades? Why should it?
Frankly, in this day and age of heightened scrutiny of climbers and their impact on the land it's IRRESPONSIBLE to not consider what the final product will be.
The South Face always pops up on the radar every few years with a VERY rare follow up ascent of a route or a new route established. It's arguably one of the least traveled pieces of amazing stone around.
As stated above, your beliefs affect what offends you. I my case, I believe in the ENJOYMENT of climbing. Some days that involves adventurous run-outs on bold ground-up routes. Some days that involves clipping bolts up a beautiful 50m tufa strewn wall. I climb the whole bell curve of styles in the rock climbing world.
On the far left of my bell curve is the ground up on-sight solo. As we move right we get ground ascents on gear, ground up ascents with gear and bolts from a stance etc et. The farther right we go the more common the ascent style. At the far right would be rap cleaned, rap grid-bolting low style glued routes (or something therein). The climbing community typically has a "does not tolerate" policy on the right hand side and correctly so. You start grid bolting crap and I'll be one of the first in line with my crowbar. However, I WILL argue when the cutoff on the curve starts greatly favoring ethics over aesthetics.
I don't see the point in criticizing a climb that will still take a great deal of strength, commitment, courage and fortitude to complete just because the FAists "looked at it ahead of time". Is it a Southern Belle? No - and that route still remains as do the ethics in which it was put up (Bold ascents seem to be increasing recently in fact).
Karl made the point that the blankness of slabs introduces ethics other features do not inherently have. As always, climbing's history is not nearly as "pure" as people make it out to be and as always, we continue to debate on how that bell curve of pure-ness should be distributed. In this case I think the curve has remained un-changed.
Now pass be another beer as I go back to the main forum...
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Burt Bronson
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 07:26pm PT
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MEN, BURT BRONSON HERE.
I HAVE HANDLED THIS ISSUE. ALL BOLTS HAVE BEEN REMOVED AND ALL HOLES HAVE BEEN PATCHED. A TOTAL OF 1137 BOLTS WERE REMOVED. THE ROUTE HAS NOT BEEN ERASED IN TOTAL, HOWEVER. WHILE CLIMBING AND CLEANING, MY PARTNER AND I WERE ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY FREE THE ROUTE ON ALL NATURAL GEAR WITH THE EXCEPTION OF ONE #2 AND TWO #1 COPPER HEADS WHICH WERE NECESSARY FOR THE PENDULUM OUT ONTO THE FACE.
WE BELIEVE THE ROUTE TO BE 'JUST OK'. WE THOUGHT SOUTHERN BELLE TO BE A MUCH BETTER ROUTE.
SINCERELY,
BURT BRONSON
THE LAST BASTION OF THE TRUE MAN CLIMBER
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Mar 30, 2008 - 08:23pm PT
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"Doug Robinson isn't some kinda bad boy (like Harding) is he?"
A couple of years ago, on movingoverstone.com, DR was advertising his guide service and had an offer that said something to the effect of:
"Be part of a first ascent on Charlotte Dome. For a fee you can join us while we put up a new route."
As one who enjoys finding and climbing new routes, and had scoped a few lines on Charlotte this made me want to puke, now he's rap bolting Half Dome...what next?
Slander sucks but if you make yourself high visibilty, then it goes with the territory.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 08:46pm PT
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Is this Sean on the route?
Photo from: (seanjonesclimbing.com)
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Mar 30, 2008 - 08:54pm PT
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It matters that it doesn't matter.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 09:25pm PT
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Werner, given the colors, that photo is probably not on Half Dome - more likely on one of the crags at Shuteye Ridge.
[Edit: Werner checked and it is Half Dome - see his post below]
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Mar 30, 2008 - 09:28pm PT
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I could be wrong, but it looks a little tall for Shuteye.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2008 - 09:39pm PT
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Colors are right for Shuteye but unless the focal length on the lens is long then the height seems unreasonable. Also, a lot of Shuteye is more textured than this image.
What am I saying, there is orange granite everywhere!
But Sean seems well set for gaining/hanging on to sponsors!
Edit: WB confirmed before I could post. Thanks WB.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 30, 2008 - 09:43pm PT
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Rincon,
Aside from the rap bolting Half Dome thing, what's wrong with him offering to guide on an FA?
FA's were guided for a long time in the Alps, so it's hardly against tradition.
And very few clients, I imagine would be willing to pay to sit around while someone drills a whole bunch of bolts. That's about as exciting as watching paint dry. So I'd tend to think that's not what he had in mind.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Mar 30, 2008 - 09:51pm PT
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"'m not against sport climbs or rap bolting, they have their places.
But rap bolting a big wall? Especially Half Dome should never be done.
Leave the big walls alone. If the south face of Half Dome can't be climbed ground up then don't bother. Leave it.
If Half Dome can't be be climbed from the ground up for a hundred years then so be it. Leave it alone.
If the South face of Half Dome has only 4 routes to the top and they are all horrendous death routes, then so be it. Respect!
Respect. Climbing is not suburbia, although that's where the modern trend is going.
I've always wanted to free climb the south face of Half Dome, but I never thought I was good enough, so I walked on past and respected that great masterpiece standing there."
Werner spoke with true wisdom. This is the only "con" argument that really stuck to me.
To say that Walt and Dave did something so everyone should adhere to their ethics is lunacy. Don't compare climbers to climbers. SOmeday down the road Southern Belle will be free soloed. Maybe in a hundred years, but what does that say of Walt? What a tool, adding a few bolts to it when it clearly doesn't need them!
I agree it should have been done on lead, however, if they added just as many bolts on lead, and had the line stray 3 different directions because it is impossible to scope from below, is that "better?" This, in my opinion, is not *bad* style. It's not great, but that depends on your definition of the word.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 09:52pm PT
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Matt M wondered,
"Why is rapping down a route to ensure you can link pitches free and with minimal bolting WORSE than climbing a route ground up,..."
Good enough question that is often asked. Simply put, I would say it's not better or worse - they are two different activities. Is rappeling worse then climbing?
Rapping (going down) is not climbing (going up). Like Dirty Kenny pointed out rather well, there is only so much terrain that exists like the South Face of Half Dome. That terrain should be respected and left for true climbers (people that go up) and not taken away by top-down, rap bolting, pseudo climbers from future athletes who will be able to actually advance the art of free climbing and go up the damn thing.
They should have left it alone and gone back the next year ground up and tried again....and again... until they could or could not make it.
Now it's an unfortunate botch job - like the cable route.
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Mar 30, 2008 - 09:58pm PT
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once again: It matters that it doesn't matter.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:00pm PT
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I don't know about a botch job John, Sean is a pretty damn good climber and don't believe he botches climbs up.
Now if I remember correctly .... I believe it was Clevenger who wanted to rap bolt Bachar Yerian before you did it John. He thought it would never go from the ground up. He was ready to do that, and you beat him to it. A bit of history.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:02pm PT
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Loomis
Your mantra is nihilistic.
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ec
climber
ca
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:04pm PT
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Thx John. edit: 'botch job is a bit harsh, don't you think?
Scott what does matter that now there is no "next great problem" for that section of stone. It has been stolen from the future of possibilities...
Stolen dreams...
ec
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:11pm PT
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Apparently, some people have not read the article (Rock & Ice #155). It is not a 5.13 slab climb. It takes the arch just left of the Harding-Rowell route, with eight 5.12a liebacking pitches and one 5.13a. After a 30' downclimb and 5.11 traverse left, they hit a 60' blank headwall where they quit their ground up ascent.
On rappel from above, they found a way to connect from the top of the blank headwall (where they put a 60' aid bolt ladder). On the 1000' upper slab the article mentions two 5.11 slab pitches and one 5.10c.
In the article, Robinson says "The specter that haunts us is of a dead end, of striking out up a promising line only to have it blank out. Then our folly will be marked forever by a line of bolts to nowhere."
What a copout.
The holes are forever (although patching can make the holes very hard to find), but the bolts do not have to be. The $1 stainless wedge bolts are "forever" (hard to pull, although you can drill the hole deeper in advance, and then pound them into the hole under the surface and patch), but if you use removable stainless ones like the $6.25 Powers Powerbolt (5-piece) or the $5.20 Fixe Triplex, you can easily remove them if you are not happy to stop your route to the high point. Or it could be done with 1/4" on lead (like Klaus and Minerals do), and then replaced with stainless 3/8" shortly after (or pulled if not happy with the route to the high point).
Risking that a route might "blank out" is what ground up climbing is all about. If it blanks out and you stop the route at that point, why is that bad?
Jones could have ended the route at the base of the blank headwall, and he would have had an all free ground up hard route. But apparently he felt it would not be a "success" (my words, not his or Robinson's) unless it went to the top, by whatever means necessary?
The real reason(s) for the rap inspection/bolting are probably:
avoiding the time and effort of drilling from stance or hooks (I'm not sure if there is much which is hookable up there)
Jones didn't want to put in the 60' aid bolt ladder unless he thought it would go free above
In Hetch Hetchy, Tim and I did a new route which went up several pitches of cracks and partway up a corner. At our high point, the corner got very thin and looked like it wouldn't go free. I traversed out right to an arete and slab. It looked like it might go, but I didn't want to take the time and effort to bolt it on lead. So I did a hard clean aid pitch up the corner instead. A few months later, we came back, and Sean Jones had rap bolted the arete (5.12a) and slab to make the lower half of his route "Resurrection". If that's the kind of adventure he wants to have, that is OK with me, under certain conditions. I didn't exactly see anybody else lining up to bolt that on lead, and it is his time and effort to decide how to use. If it was a route which other people had been attempting from the ground up, that would be a problem.
[Edit to add, plus many other edits done above over the past hour]
One of the other things that bothered me in the article is when Robinson said "Sean Jones ... a guy with 90 first ascents in Yosemite." Quantity of first ascents means nothing, especially if they are rap bolted; those can be done very quickly. What matters is quality. (Well, quantity does matter in terms of future ground up adventures lost, but that is a hard tradeoff to judge. My standard is to try to limit myself to a low number of good routes, done by whatever style, but of course I have done some bad/junk ones...) Maybe Robinson was trying to compensate for the fact that Jones' topos are mostly unpublished (maybe partly because Globe Pequot Press hasn't published Don Reid's new edition), so maybe few have heard of him.
Thanks, coz, for speaking your mind on this. The article has been out for months, but it seems that nobody has been willing to address this (myself included).
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:11pm PT
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WB - Just for the record, it was actually Christian Griffith who wanted to rap bolt the BY. When he told me that, I went up there the next day and put the first bolt in.
By botch job, I mean we will now never know if a more skilled climber/climbing team could have climbed up the confusing, difficult, hard-to-read face.
Somebody got robbed of a great first ASCENT. The funny thing is they robbed themselves first (if they indeed could have ever succeeded).
Edit: Maybe 'botch job' is not the best description. I think Clint's use of the term 'copout' is more accurate, now that I think about it.
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:22pm PT
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The point is, that we can all post our feelings about this and not change that it has been done. And my opinion does not change it either.
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adventurous one
Trad climber
reno nev.
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:24pm PT
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It is not about getting to the top. It is about the adventure getting to the top.
Even if this was the most amazing free route on the planet, with plenty of ass puckering adventure, one must ask what such a precedent may lead to and what it may encourage others, with less skill and respect, to do with ever less desirable results. Half Dome is not your neighborhood choss pile sport crag. Every climable line does not need to be found.
Imo, much better to have a handful of mistakes that go "nowhere" than to see a "Gold Rush" of big wall rap routes that ruin the sense of adventure for all.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:24pm PT
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All of this posturing about future climbers seems a bit odd. That wall is hard to get to and has seen hardly any action in the last 40 years.
On the other hand, El Cap, which is obvious and easily accessible, has had the crap beat out of it for 50 years. Should the Salathe team have refused to climb because someone in 2030 might be able to free solo the route?
If we take this to extremes, we've basically got gritstone rules. Only nuts and cams allowed. Maybe taped hooks and cam hooks. Anyone who has done anything else on El Cap has let down future generations?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:30pm PT
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Must all routes "go somewhere?" Are the Geek Tower routes less than perfect since they do not finish "at the top?"
Part of the excitement of doing a FA is not knowing what comes next. Did the Vikings or Old Chris C. take a beeline to North America? I bet they wandered a bit before getting to where they wanted to be.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:36pm PT
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stevep - Forget Gritstone rules. We already have Yosemite "rules"... on sight, ground up. If you fail, you go down - if you make it, you're on top.
Yosemite had the cleanest, purest, most balls out standards on the planet...
Now we got "trad climbers" who top rope things 69 times before they do a 1st "ASCENT".
Golf is now more bad ass than trad climbing!
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:47pm PT
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Wow, well I guess I misremembered details from the article. So what ya'll are saying is that this route is entirely new terrain? And you are throwing a hissy fit merely because it wasn't established in the style YOU would have established it? As much respect as I have for many of you as climbers (I hate to say this), I'm glad I'm not any of your girlfriends--which is to say, nobody likes a jealous partner. There's a route out there somewhere called "Shut Up and Climb." Go send it.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:56pm PT
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I understand that John, and I understand the stylistic distinction. It certainly does take bigger balls to do things ground up, and more smarts to get it right. Maybe to be truly honest about it, we should go back to only allowing yoyoing and no hanging.
But is a ground up ascent with tons of holes or lots of pins in a crack more acceptable than a pre-rapped ascent that results in less damage to the rock? I certainly would rather see something rap bolted with 10 good bolts in 50 meters than 50 meters of rivits every 5 ft. Ground up shouldn't be the only consideration.
I'm not saying I approve or disapprove of DR and Sean's ascent. I don't have enough info.
Just that I don't think ground-up should be the only consideration. And also that if one is trying to say that we should somehow "save" that wall for future generations, you open up a can of worms about all kinds of previous ascents in more travelled parts of Yosemite.
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adventurous one
Trad climber
reno nev.
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:56pm PT
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The biggest issue here is not that they stole the first "true" fa from themselves or others. The big issue is what sort of future impacts are we going to see from writing an article about it in such an influntial medium as Rock and Ice. Someday are our revered big walls going to look like a local grid bolted sport crag? I am sure this is not the, well meaning, intention of the fa team. However, for a climbing community this is a well needed thread topic.
Edit- btw, I thourghly enjoyed the article and am not putting anyone down. Putting up any route on the backside of Half Dome is impressive. I am sure it is an intimidating line above my ability. I just hope this does not inspire a rush of others to go out rappeling big walls looking to put up rap routes everywhere because they don't want to put in the effort of ground up routes.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:00pm PT
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billygoat, Shut Up and Climb and Shut the Fvck Up and Climb are at Cave rock and are now closed. Drat.
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Matt M
Trad climber
Tacoma, WA (Temp in San Antonio)
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:14pm PT
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Seems to me that the ENTIRE history of Yosemite climbing most definitely was focused on getting to the top. First to summit Higher Cathedral, first to climb the NWFHD, first to climb the El Cap etc etc. They didn't rap but they sure used a lot of OTHER means to reach the summit. Pins and bolt ladders, penjis etc. As time progressed they changed their styles but an ENTIRE route was almost always the goal. It's been that way for climbing for eons.
I for one HATE when I see a "route to nowhere" in the Yosemite guides. The idea that a ground up, dead end route is preferable to a continuous line to the summit is wrong to me. Hey - Good for you, ground up and on lead. But that aesthetic of pushing a route to the summit is missing. That is a part of the climb that all future parties will miss. They will marvel at the boldness and purity of the route and then marvel as to why the FA party didn't go THERE instead so they could go to the top!
Yes the route was not of the "purest style" but to burn it at the stake as an abomination smacks of a time in Yosemite history that many of my elder mentors remember with disdain. A time when you were with the Catholic Church or a heretic.
If it were rap bolted top to bottom with no thought given to quality style or ethics I'd be right there with you doing the burning. This seems to be no where close and as such, I'm not about to burn my Protestant climbing companion.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:16pm PT
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I am not sure how widely this is known, but Sean Jones has established other long multipitch rap bolted routes, on Parkline Slab (1000', above El Portal), and on Balloon Dome (Southern Yosemite / Mammoth Pool). I didn't know about these until I was searching the AAJ online a few weeks ago. 2006 AAJ. The articles don't mention rap bolting; it is my assumption that they were rap bolted, given what I saw in Hetch Hetchy, with his ropes fixed from top to bottom of Hetch Hetchy Dome. And also because he mentioned on Balloon Dome that they humped loads into a base camp, but did not mention its location, and mentioned that you could hike in to the midway point. And on Parkline Slab, he mentioned that Flying in the Mountains and Homeworld meet at the top anchor, 1000' up.
[4/2/08 - Edit to add: on Parkline Slab, there can be a lot of moss to clean off, so doing some prep on rappel would make a lot of sense. Since cleaning moss is nominally against the rules, I wouldn't expect this sort of thing to be reported, so I don't think I want to hear more details on Parkline.
For Balloon Dome, to be more accurate, Sean described a lot of crack climbing on the lower route, so that is not rap bolting territory. And I don't see anything wrong with making a rappel approach to the lower route from a base camp above it.
My main objection to rap-placed multipitch routes is when they are being done on formations where traditional FA methods are also being employed (although it may be tricky to define "being" / "concurrently"). This is because rapbolting usually is done much faster than ground up, so a rapper can snag all the FAs before the ground up party can get their chance at one. This objection does not apply to doing a single route with rap methods. It does apply if several of the routes are rapbolted in a short time period.
As for that bolted arete on the lower part of Resurrection at Hetch Hetchy, in theory that is one of those "single route" cases, so I don't really object. But it was sort of a shock to me how fast it happened. Probably a big part of my feeling about it was that I was suddenly competing for FAs against a climber who was a lot more skilled than I was, and he was using much faster methods. To his credit, Sean was a nice guy and asked us to call him, so he could ask for permission to climb the lower pitches of our route to access the arete/slab. He didn't need to ask, since we didn't own the rock (so of course we gave him permission), but it was a nice gesture.]
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:27pm PT
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caughtinside-- My point is that when people get caught up in petty issues about what's sacred and what's not and who's rules should prevail, then the climbing community tends to suffer as a whole. There was a bit of an intended pun in my comments, I'm glad you got it (or, I think you did)! Anyways, I'm not going to pass stylistic judgment on anybody's route until I've climbed it. Sure, ground up, stance drilled, free routes make proud lines. But I think we've all climbed plenty of routes established in other styles that were pretty f*#kin' cool.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:34pm PT
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So these guys climb 8 pitches of 12a and a 13 ground up, get stopped, and the resort to rapping in to make sure taking their line will go further, and that makes em some kind of criminals? Particularly since the hard climbing was already done? Make em responsible in my mind.
Doesn't seem like anybody here would have had a problem if they simply aided the first 8 pitches, drilled a ladder past the blank spot, and climbed mixed free and bolt ladders to the top. Would that have "really" been so much better and bolder than what happened?
The history of big wall climbing is not so pure and bright as some seem to recall here.
Somebody wrote
"No need for Bridwell et al to rap down the PO to know it would be intricate and hard from the ground up. He just did it. The various routes on the Porcelain Wall are less than obvious from the ground but no one felt it necessary to rap them first."
Yeah, because he knew that if the features ran out, he could just drill a bolt ladder until the feature allowed more heads (which, I might add is a rather unsustainable technique)
I'd argue that the PO is a lot less of a route today compared to when it went up compared with this route, which will be more or less the same for every party that comes to it in the future. I couldn't do the PO when it went up, but I could now. I'll never do this route.
The history of big wall climbing in Yosemite is full of guys looking at every feature with high powered telescopes, linking them with bolt ladders, and establishing fixed lines for hundreds of feet so they could eat and drink at the deli while getting their route started. All all the time hammering and aiding.
Is this route really so much worse than all that?
This seems like a bunch of pedophiles complaining about the evils of gay marriage. We accept our own ethical weaknesses because they are shared and attack the visionaries because their ethical weakness is ahead of it's time. Climbing has always been that way for sometimes better and sometimes worse.
I'm not hearing anything lower than what's been going on all along. Only different.
Peace
Karl
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marky
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:49pm PT
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thanks, Bush/Cheney!
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:50pm PT
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From reading some of the posts above I guess climbing is just a sport and the moves and getting to the summit are everything?
Some folks here seen to merge aid climbing and free climbing a wall as the same thing?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:02am PT
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wow-
i just read this whole thread, and i am SO PISSED OFF by it!
or by what i found in it
way up thread, plastic man wrote:
"I don't care what someone believes in or practices (bestiality, bathhouse glory holes, veganism, smoking a pipe, Jehovah's Witness, chewing tobacco, Branch Davidian, Republican, etc.)"
dood-
why do vegans get lumped in w/ the rest of that rif-raff?
come on pal, that's just not right!
=)
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:13am PT
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stevep - I know what you're saying too. In my messed up opinion, any climber that has enough ability to do a first ascent on a face of that scale is not going to drill a huge bolt ladder (unless they had to summit for life or death reasons).
When you're on-sight, ground up, on-the-lead, on a face climb, and can't tell where to go to summit, after a few aid bolts - you are going to realize that you're not free climbing anymore. If you are really into free climbing, and you want to be a vertical Bruce Lee, you won't drill a massive bolt ladder. You will go for it or come back another day when you're the shiznit.
If you never achieve Shiznit staus, that's cool too. Big respect for trying.
At least you went for it.
-jb
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john hansen
climber
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:17am PT
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From an early AAJ by Ament
On our last day in Toulumne, Bob Kamps and I attempted what
looked like the “a&time” route in the Meadows--the very center of
Fairview’s west face. Starting below a conspicuous roof and a series of
small arches, we hoped to climb a steep crack system to the summit bowl.
After four full pitches of fantastic climbing on %akes and knobs, we
encountered an utterly blank 85” headwall. Utterly blank? As unlikely
as this seems for Toulumne, the wall would simply not go free. We had
already used four bolts to protect 5.9 and 5.10 climbing immediately
below, would four or five aid bolts now be appropriate? We pondered
the situation and finally decided to go down. Here was a route more
resistant than any we had previously encountered. Once on the ground, we
discussed the free climbing tradition being established in Toulumne and
speculated that perhaps someday the headwall wo& go free. Then, to the
car. Bob wondered if he had lost his camera, whether he would then be
camera-shy. I ignored him and suggested we call our half-a-route The
Abortion. He suggested we go home.
I think this later became the "Fairest of them All"
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:18am PT
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Well, if the route is now 'visionary and 'ahead-of-its-time' maybe this discussion should be deferred until its time arrives and the vision of rap bolting routes in the Valley is a common one.
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:27am PT
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ec: do you believe what you wrote?
Stone Masher guide came out years ago and there are tons of new routes still to be done all over the south, as well as the north.
Stolen dreams?
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:34am PT
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On sight flash " Southern Belle"?
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:16am PT
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Half Dome is a stone fox.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:24am PT
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Matt... sorry. Guess I just needed to offend as many as possible in one brief thought. Next time I'll write the first half of the sentence then jump to the end and write the rest of the sentence from the end backwards.
I knew this would go way past 100 posts.
Next prediction: This thread will be in Chris' "best of" next month.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:37am PT
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Karl...nice post. You are wasting your time and effort trying to be logical...the jury is already in on this with most of these folks.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:39am PT
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John Hansen's posted a description from the AAJ about a route attempted by Ament and Kamps which was stopped by a 85' blank headwall. He speculated that this route later became "Fairest of All".
I believe this is actually a route that is just left of Piece de Resistance. The headwall was attempted by Jeff Vance and Brian Cox in the early 80's. A few years later, John Bachar gave Jeff a call and asked if he could try the project. John was also unsuccessful. A few years ago, the headwall was rap-bolted and went at 5.12+. Now if I could just remember the FA info(Clint, help me out oh wise one)......
Bruce
ps - About the major issue being discussed here. Does the end justify the means making rap bolting of HD OK? Not in my book. If you don't succeed, better luck next time!
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ec
climber
ca
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:54am PT
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Scott,
I meant 'that' dream of the route in question.
And don't let on about unfinished business in the Sierra, as we both have some unfinished business. LOL. At least I'll spend enough time and effort to watch the sun & shadows pass to see what most likely will be out there. Sometimes its a gamble. I had to scope Tehipite a few times. The headwall was like looking at the Shield. In some parts of the day the wall looks blank, then when the sun is just right...If the cracks weren't there we would have had to bail. We lucked out.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 05:13am PT
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John Hansen and Bruce -
The quote is from Tom Higgins' (not Pat Ament's) article in the 1969 AAJ. It is on Tom's site (see the last page):
http://www.tomhiggins.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=20&limit=1&limitstart=0
The obvious implication is that the route described was later done as "Piece de Resistance", and aid was used by Vern Clevenger to place one of the bolts. Higgins was of course disappointed by this change in ethics/style for Tuolumne climbing, just read his intro to the Tuolumne guidebook.
Bruce, I'm not sure what route Jeff + Brian tried. Maybe you are thinking of Retrospective? (that headwall is 5.11+ on the topo, I don't know if it was rap bolted or not - ask Mike Schaefer). Probably you should ask Jeff or Brian. The headwall on Retrospective starts just right of where Plastic Exploding Inevitable cuts left after the big right facing corner ends.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 31, 2008 - 07:33am PT
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The "Stolen Dreams" concept has been around for many years in climbing and it's applications are worth debating in climbing. Where do you suggest we draw the line?
Should be blame Klaus for climbing "Jesus built my Hotrod" when it could have been saved for somebody who could have freeclimbed it without as much stone damage?
If we had waited until cleaner aid gear was invented, the shield headwall could have been spared it's total savaging.
Perhaps any hammered aid climbing isn't warranted as clean gear might arrive to let the stone remained perserved as is forever.
Perhaps ANY aid climbing is also stealing the dream of the climber who could make a ground up free ascent someday? We keep finding that free climbers keep making inroads in territory that was unimaginable years back.
Take the South Face of Half Dome even. If it had been left alone by Harding and everyone else, what could Caldwell walk up and do there today? A very different route i'm sure.
Asking everyone to lay off the stone in deference to future superheros is like telling teenagers to save sex for marriage. There are a few examples of it happening but...
Somebody wrote:
"Must all routes "go somewhere?" Are the Geek Tower routes less than perfect since they do not finish "at the top?"
Actually, to be honest, the Geek Tower's routes would get climbed 500%+ more if they went to the top, so I have to imagine they are "Less than Perfect according to climbers voting with their feet. It's worth noting in this ethical debate that lionizes the noble kings of the past that Bridwell intentionally pinned out a crack on Geek Towers Freestone so that it would go free.
Climbers are a lot like humans. Once you get beneath the surface, we have flaws and strengths, different ideas of right and wrong, and different circumstances cause us to apply those ideas in weird ways.
Peace
Karl
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Mar 31, 2008 - 09:41am PT
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Great post Karl. It's about time constructive scarring got mentioned. Also, at one point, a route was considered to have gone free even when bolts were placed from hooks. I don't think half the heroes mentioned on this thread have been portrayed in the true light of their so called "ethics."
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 31, 2008 - 10:01am PT
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le bruce,
Thanks for the pictures!
Nice seeing it from a different perspective.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Mar 31, 2008 - 10:08am PT
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Yes thanks for those pictures!
What an impressive jewel of the Sierra that is.
Having never seen it from those angles it is all the more incredible.
Cheers,
DD
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Mar 31, 2008 - 10:12am PT
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I have never seen Doug Robinson use chalk.
Also, about half of that article was about all of the other routes on Half Dome.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 31, 2008 - 10:42am PT
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the worst scrutiny for the man of compromised values occurs behind his eyelids as he tries to find peaceful rest.
i speak from empathy, as i
utilize forest products to shape the heart of the earth into man's structures. (ie build wood formwork to mold concrete (limestone) into buildings).
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 10:44am PT
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I have to disagree with Karl (big surprise) about Geek Tower, I was just up there yesterday doing the approach with spyork in the weather. That area has 3 or 4 lines that go to the top (LA Chimney, LA Direct, Yosemite Point Buttress,...) and the traffic is very light on any of them. The "problem" is not that Freestone and Geek Tower, Right end at the top of the "tower," but that it takes effort to get to them. With so much high quality climbing within 15 minutes of the parked car, distant cliffs are essentially abandoned to people who have the luxury of spending an hour or more on approach.
There are exceptions, of course, Snake Dike being one, but it is the one way up Half Dome that nearly every climber could say "I've climbed Half Dome, well, not up that face" when asked the inevitable question.
Perhaps my following comments have been expressed above someplace, I ran out of steam while attempting to read carefully through the above posts, but we all do make choices when putting up first ascents anywhere that we do them... and it balances the extreme of "adventure" between venturing without any preparation vs. having that venture totally planned. The antonyms of "adventure" are words like: avoidance, passiveness, inactivity,... i.e. sitting on your ass at home.
Why prepare? When we attempt an FA, we often have to plan on putting in protection which is "permanent" e.g. bolts. We might also alter the environment by "gardening" the climb. If we did this without preparation then the cliffs would be littered with byproduct of our adventure seeking, that is, you start out on something that can't be done at some level of style, or with finite effort.
Preparing for a climb doesn't drain the adventure from it, scoping big wall routes has been done from the beginning, photographing the walls, or looking at photographs to try to divine a route, identifying features, etc. No one wants to go up a line and not succeed, especially altering the line.
Climbers can choose to go without a bolt kit, which commits them to a particular style. Eric and I didn't take one on the retro-FA of A Walk In The Park because we sought a particular climb, an old style natural passage. It's not a classic in the "Meyers Yellow Guide" definition, but it was an adventure. We didn't leave much of a indication of our passage.
Other times, we have ventured out and put a bolt in where perhaps we shouldn't have, but that can happen. Retreating and trying another line is classic and often results in the "off route bolt" designation on the topos, we've all seen it. Our style is to try to minimize this sort of thing by planning the routes. We could also use a relatively modern innovation of removable anchors, which I'm coming to believe is the correct manner of bolting, allowing errant lines to be removed, and classic lines to be re-equipped easily.
I think how these climbs are put in are largely a personal choice, but one that effects the entire community. These debates are worth having especially if they are conducted in a constructive spirit, the WOS debate has long since passed the stage where it can be discussed with any good coming from it, a caution is not to let this debate go the same way. Passion is good... but we also aren't going to agree in the end.
Unfortunately, none of the principals of the FA have posted. It would be a more interesting discussion with their participation. I'd like to know what their point of view is on this, what was their vision. It is an important component of this debate.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Mar 31, 2008 - 11:26am PT
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Having followed this thread for the most part from the start. I have determined that the best quote comes from Karl....
"This seems like a bunch of pedophiles complaining about the evils of gay marriage. We accept our own ethical weaknesses because they are shared and attack the visionaries because their ethical weakness is ahead of it's time. Climbing has always been that way for sometimes better and sometimes worse."
That made me laugh out loud, carry on.
Prod.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Mar 31, 2008 - 11:37am PT
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Prod,
I was going to bring up the awesomeness of that quote! Dang it.
Bumper sticker anyone?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Mar 31, 2008 - 11:58am PT
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Hmmm...I liked the part about "walking past the great stone", and "rappelling is going down, climbing is going up".
"Southern Belle had a first "ascent"" Yeah, aid climbs have done some damage, no doubt about it. That's what this is it seems to me, an aid climb which can now be done as a free climb.
BITD any time you hung on gear, it was aid. Placing bolts on rappel is aid.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:03pm PT
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The climb is what it is, not what you call it.
Or to paraphrase:
The climb speaks.
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Double D
climber
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:04pm PT
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le_bruce, nice photos! Taken from a slightly illegal flight pattern???
Thanks for posting.
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John Moosie
climber
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:10pm PT
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This quote of Karl's got me too.
"Climbers are a lot like humans"
So climbers aren't human, but a lot like them? hahahaha....
True Dat.
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Gobie
Trad climber
Northern, Ca.
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:19pm PT
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Yeah...constructive scarring. Now we are talking. I cant climb 5.13, but can aid like a mad man. If a bunch of us aid the lower section with angles eventually it will turn into a classic like serenity. If thats to scary then we can just aid it on top rope until the rock submits.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:20pm PT
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"This quote of Karl's got me too.
"Climbers are a lot like humans"
So climbers aren't human, but a lot like them? hahahaha....
True Dat. "
Have you heard the noises made while climbing?
It's either non-human or pubic audio sex
;-)
Karl
More seriously, some like to judge things by their own standards which complement their own history, background and strengths but it's true
The climb is simply what it is.
Seems like one thing to judge the results and how they impact the stone and future climbers and another to judge "Did they have enough adventure and could they have forgone the climb so somebody else could have had greater adventure?
It's like a lot of our human situation. Perhaps people should marry when both are virgins, stay together for a lifetime, and live happily every after.
What Life is, is completely different. Different situations, changing standards, perspectives, and values breed different results. Something is lost, something is gained.
To each their own.
As Ed Says, these climbs are restricted somewhat by the effort required to approach and establish them. There are huge faces with few routes up the canyon from Watkins. Have at em
Peace
Karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:22pm PT
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Survial wrote: BITD any time you hung on gear, it was aid. Placing bolts on rappel is aid.
So is placing them on hooks...what your point? This thread is f*#king hilarious.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:30pm PT
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Bob wrote
"Survial wrote: BITD any time you hung on gear, it was aid. Placing bolts on rappel is aid.
So is placing them on hooks...what your point? This thread is f*#king hilarious."
Leave Bachar alone Bob. Just cause he aided his loosely bolted sport climb doesn't mean it wasn't proud.
;-)
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:33pm PT
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Hahaha that's pretty funny bob d'
On another note, not just a question only to you Bob.
Has the evolution of rock climbing gone to rap bolting because we've lost sight of the true summit?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:34pm PT
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Bob, I agree, placing bolts from hooks is aid too. I didn't say it wasn't.
We all defend our own style, right on. As long as everybody is cool with subsequent ascents using aid, I guess it's all good.
I'm sure they won't mind if I drop a 1500 foot toprope down it, or whatever length it takes to get a rope to the bottom...
Edit: I've got no problem with aid climbing. I lIKE aid climbing. At times though, there has been a lot of smoke blown about "free" routes, that haven't been exactly free. I don't have the FA record that many many on this site have, but I have done a few bold things on sight with no rap, no bolts, no hooks, so I like to think of that as high on the style chart. That being said, this route wouldn't have gone that way. And as I said earlier, this route is out of my league anyway, so maybe I'd best pipe down and read....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:43pm PT
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Werner wrote: Hahaha that's pretty funny bob d'
On another note, not just a question only to you Bob.
Has the evolution of rock climbing gone to rap bolting because we've lost sight of the true summit?
Moe than likely as very few routes go to summits.
The sport has evolve and change is good. I wasn't slacking on Bachar as I have respect for his efforts, always have...he did the best he could at the time and that is more than good enough for me.
It you take Surival comment as face value....old routes in Valley, Gunks and Boulder area have never been free climbed because gear use was placed with aid.
Not one person has commented on the quality of the route...I would almost be bet that it is a great route in a beautiful setting with good protection...but not a bolt ladder. Seth and Doug made some hard decisions fully knowing that the climb would stir this type of debate.
I bolted climbs back in the 70's and early 80's on lead into the 5.12 range and most have not been repeated...I wouldn't even go back and do them ...the bolts are old, somewhat runout and maybe not even all the good. Doing a FA is somewhat self-serving and personal...doing a first ascent that is climbed a lot is a community contribution.
I been around this game (climbing) way too long to past judgment on people I don't even know on the style of a climb they did. I much rather judge them on what kind human they are...a good friend, father, son, wife, etc... and what they do for the community.
We only get one ride at this rodeo (life) and I not going to fall off because of some bolts on a wall.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Mar 31, 2008 - 12:51pm PT
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Thanks Doug and Sean for generating some controversy. This site has been boring as sh#t lately.
Lot's of good comments on this thread.
You often hear "it's not about getting to the top, but how you do it", but how come we don't hear glorious stories about the first tries to send the face half dome of that didn't succeed? It's usually how you do it AND getting to the top that counts. An aid pin on Higher Cathedral Spire, and aid bolt on Lost Arrow, a bolt ladder on RNWFHD. How far are we willing to deviate from perfection for completion. We ALL compromise.
Leaving a climb for future climbers is a slippery slope, someday someone could free solo most any free line (and many that are thought only to be possible with aid) so then no climbs should go in with bolts, period.
The funny thing is the style of the FA can have ethical ramifications, but if the FA party doesn't publicize how they did it then there is often nothing to discuss but the merits of the resulting climb itself. Once someone writes up how they did the FA they are opening themselves up to scrutiny and criticism, and maybe this war of words is just as interesting as the physical modifications of the Earth.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:02pm PT
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Didn't they fire Half Dome?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:07pm PT
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The Fet asks about why we don't hear more stories about failures.
Well, we do! Some of the best stories about climbing I have read in print are about climbers who got shut down, re-evaluated and came back to either succeed or get shut down again. It really is about the journey and not the destination. Especially if you can get your ego under control.
Bruce
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:17pm PT
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Bruce wrote: The Fet asks about why we don't hear more stories about failures.
Well, we do! Some of the best stories about climbing I have read in print are about climbers who got shut down, re-evaluated and came back to either succeed or get shut down again. It really is about the journey and not the destination. Especially if you can get your ego under control.
Bruce
Bruce...first off...how are you?
Just because they took a different path on their journey than you would...you think it is wrong....who really can't control their ego?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:49pm PT
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Bob,
I like what you said above about judging someone by what kind of human being they are. Well put.
I like the only go around once comment too. Unless we are reincarnated and get to be climbers again???
I had an old buddy who, when I would be too busy to go do something with him, used to say "Hey Birchell, this isn't a f**king dress rehearsal man, this is the only ride...let's go!"
I always liked that....
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:56pm PT
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someone above mentioned the pin scars on serenity crack, which got me thinking-
maybe this HD route is really 2 routes?
one is a true ground up trad climb, hard corner pitches climbed (all or primarily?) on gear, then from above starts another climb, a hard slab mulitpitch, that was rap bolted.
can't peoples' opinions be separated by the two climbs?
the corner sounds rad, i'd to be good enough to send that one day...
5.13 slab multipitch?
no gracias, i'll just rap.
EDIT-
btw- karl, the problem w/ your "live and let live" attitudes wrt climbs and bolts an the like is that it ignores the reason the valley is the way it is, that being the peer pressure used by the community in general to discourage certain practices, even as they were gaining acceptance elsewhere.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Mar 31, 2008 - 03:12pm PT
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Greetings You Topians,
I am not ahsamed. Thought hard, agonized even, over this style, talked it down endlessly, then chose to finish the route. I'm constantly aware of what I wrote in the past and proud of those words and those ideas, and I get it that this seems contradictory. If you go toward absolutes and toward judgment, then this is not as pure a style. But it still feels like a proud climb up some of the best stone I've ever seen.
And I'm not so sure that absolutes and judgment are the ultimate deal. They seem to loom larger in our lives at night in the bar, and they seem to loom larger too while sitting on my ass in front of this glowing screen. But when I'm out there moving over the clean stone in sunshine my animal joy in the tenuous position and the finesse of moving well and being poised over the void tend to downplay my interest in absolutes and judgments and let me more simply revel in it. Maybe that's some of the point of Growing Up.
Please go climb the route and let me know how you feel about it. Meanwhile, sure I'll sit here and type back and forth about it. I value your thoughts; this is about as good a community as I've found anywhere. A worthy place to work on getting more human.
While we're talking, read the article again. I spent two months writing it because this decision was not simple, and not easy. It was complex and subtle, but it represents our best effort to grow on our noble Valley tradition and respond to that particular stretch of stone. Most places it's too steep to stance drill. It's scallpoed and polished in a way that doesn't lend itself to hook drilling. Historically, hooking was the first big step away from free and clean drilling from stances, and here that wouldn't work.
Big respect for the Bachar-Yerian, John. Your response to that stretch of stone was impeccable; it departed from tradition in a bold way. But the South Face is different climbing than anything in the Meadows. Part of my problem in writing about it is trying to convey what we found there. How we responded is easier to see. But it gets dangerous to go off into "shoulda's" without really feeling the terrain.
Big respect to you too, Coz, for your first all-free lead of Southern Belle. Honestly, though, I have very little idea what the stone is like over there a couple of hundred yards east of where we were. Thought about dropping our fixed line down there to take a look, because my respect is mixed with curiosity. Southern Belle has become such a legend it would be interesting to just be a tourist and check it out. I'm damn sure never going to see it in the traditional way, climbing from the ground. But while actually up there with fixable lines, I never had the time and energy to go look.
By the time we came to it, every free route on the South Face had upped the ante until you had to stare down death or at least being crippled to go up there. We talked to most of the activists, and their sense of it was pretty serious. Schultz said he wouldn't go back. Caylor is the only one so far to seriously pitch, 70 feet or more, off that wall. He said Southern Belle was "just a bad idea." His ankles healed, but after crawling all the way to the Valley he found that his boldness was crippled for upwards of 15 years. Potter, making the second free ascent 18 years later, allowed that he was "scared."
So it seemed that the X-club was monopolizing the wall, yet each of its members was personally backing away from the place. All the while raving about it being the best stone any of them had ever climbed on. Maybe the bold tradition was getting self-limiting there. Maybe it was time for another idea. At least to try one. And after, if it had felt terrible in my gut, felt like a transgression, I would have rapped back down there myself, chopped and patched. Instead it felt exciting, felt like bearing the gift of a superb new route.
Making these decisions was threading a needle's eye. One of the many realities that seem ironic is that the Bachar-Yerian seems safer than the South Face, because it's so steep. After paying the consequences, Caylor highlighted that: "The B-Y is a reasonable climb..." Not the way most folks look at it. The South Face is right around 75 degrees. Too steep to stance, but low angle enough to smack stuff on the way down; his fall began to cartwheel.
So here's an invitation, a potential that personally excites me but wouldn't fit in the article. The whole four months we were up there I had tendonitis in my elbow and couldn't climb. Ironically, I could hold a drill OK. All better now, so here's what I'm going to do and what I suggest to all of you who might also find the 12a crack climbing off the ground too hard. 'Course you have to walk a ways. for starters, climb the Snake Dike as an approach. Rap a ways down the upper wall. Climb back out. Three pitches down it goes to .11a. Below that it eases back into .10-something. Five or six pitches down (Sean, we need your topo) is the "Mini Snake Dike," 5.10c which looks really good. Below there is the .11d pitch pictured upthread. I think at my level I can get half way down to the top of the arch and still lead back out. I know it'll be one of the best climbs of my life. I know it'll still be sporty with some 30-foot runouts. A good rock climb, not a death route. The only opportunity most of us may have in this lifetime to experience that wonderful stone.
Well, I'll quit for now. I've thought about this so much that what I've just gotten down is the tip of an iceberg and it's still long winded.
I hope we hear from Sean too. He says it's the best route he ever did, and he's been around.
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 31, 2008 - 03:43pm PT
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Good to hear from you on this Doug. Well said.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Mar 31, 2008 - 03:52pm PT
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Thanks Doug. I'm good !
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 31, 2008 - 03:57pm PT
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Seems like much ado about nothing. There is an absolute limit to ground up FA slab/face routes, even with hooks (which can result in bolts in the wrong spots). Once the bolts are there (and assuming they are placed with care and consideration), does how they were placed really matter to anyone but the FA?
Kevin Worral summed up my opinion:
Of course, a successful ground up effort would be better style and more impressive - but time and successive ascents will yield the only qualified criticism of the route, and the climbers who did it first - as I see it.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 03:58pm PT
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Just to clarify..
I still think the BY is 5.11, A1. Even if you free climb past the bolts you are still indirectly using aid protection.
I also think placing bolts on rappel is not technically aid climbing. It's not even climbing. Placing bolts from hooks or another bolt is aid climbng - you're still climbing.
Just my whacky opinion...jb
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 31, 2008 - 04:11pm PT
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I knew that Doug Robinson didn't have any class.
Just bunch of lies, slander, and rationalizations cause he doesn't want to die or be crippled!
;-)
Personally, I'd do well for myself to just hike up there once in awhile. Folks tell me they want to do Snake Dike and I like to talk em out of it.
Peace
Karl
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petey23
climber
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Mar 31, 2008 - 04:25pm PT
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For what it's worth (my opinion shouldn't count for much as I don't climb 5.12 of any kind and I'm not a local either), I respect that Doug came on here and defended it.
To me, it doesn't so much matter how the route is established. More important is the fact that some serious thought and soul-searching went into it. If someone can demonstrate that they considered the options with a serious mind and did what they thought was best, then I'm fine with it. It is more than obvious that Doug did that (and I assume Sean too).
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Mar 31, 2008 - 04:39pm PT
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I think it's a plus that they hand drilled every bolt.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Mar 31, 2008 - 04:45pm PT
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You've got to wonder how many people's opinions actually change in a discussion like this. If anything, folks tend to get more "reasonable" as they get older, and the super hardcore run-the-rope-a-mile, ground-up folks will eventually stove in and "excuse" rap bolting or whatever, rather than sticking to the hard core ethic. You think it over and ofcourse risking life and limb for a rock climb seems absurd so you do whatever in required to make things "safer" and saner, right?
Thing is, in all of those ground-up face fandangos I was involved in (when I was young, granted), the point was never to be "reasonable" or safe; likewise it was never to be unreasonable or unsafe. The point was to squeeze the most experiential voltage out of the route as you could. It was always understood that some routes simply had too many volts, at least for me, and so I didn't try or do these routes, be they new routes or repeats.
JL
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 04:46pm PT
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Good post Doug and way to keep it non-combative...a few here could learn a lesson.
Some of these posts border on religious type fanatics statements.
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Buggs
Trad climber
Eagle River, Alaska
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Mar 31, 2008 - 04:59pm PT
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Very interesting dialogue. What a beautiful place.
le_bruce - thanks for the awesome perspective.
For those who have not been up there, the approach is long but well worth it, some of the most magical terrain I've ever seen.
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Buggs
Trad climber
Eagle River, Alaska
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Mar 31, 2008 - 05:02pm PT
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Another example
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Buggs
Trad climber
Eagle River, Alaska
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Mar 31, 2008 - 05:04pm PT
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And yet another. just being up there next to her is lovely, peaceful, awe-inspiring.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Mar 31, 2008 - 05:16pm PT
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I just came back on here.
DR, thanks for joining the conversation. Very nice post. It's clear that you had to chew on this choice for a while.
Buggs! You made it, you sly dog. I knew you'd have pictures of that thing.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 31, 2008 - 05:46pm PT
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Largo wrote
"Thing is, in all of those ground-up face fandangos I was involved in (when I was young, granted), the point was never to be "reasonable" or safe; likewise it was never to be unreasonable or unsafe. The point was to squeeze the most experiential voltage out of the route as you could. It was always understood that some routes simply had too many volts, at least for me, and so I didn't try or do these routes, be they new routes or repeats. "
So are you really just speaking for yourself John or should we read between the lines and infer that a route like this should be done by those capable of doing them from the ground up with the little protection they could place on lead (which in this case would be almost none)?
For me, I feel like restricting a whole wall, or even a whole type of climbing (slabs that can't be stance drilled or hooked) to death routes is a type of ethical fundamentalism that serves very, very few. Perhaps 6 guys over 10 years who could simply up the ante and solo the thing.
Is climbing first ascents solely restricted to the maximum experience of the First Ascent party (while conforming to the communiity's ideas of best style) and the ones who will follow count for nothing?
This feels like a quality route that will see traffic and it won't be the sport climbing clippity do dah crowd either. You have to climb 5.12+ trad and then do 30 foot runouts.
I think Doug has made a reasonable case for the technique employed. If anyone would like to prove otherwise, seems like one could climb to the top of the arch and establish the "Throwing Up" variation a hundred feet to the right or left and there wouldn't be enough bolts on it to make it feel squeezed.
Or does it all come down to a religious kind of belief in what the sport is about and how things should be?
Or is it more like "We walked 3 miles in the snow to school and them new school kids should pay their dues too?"
Just asking
Peace
Karl
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 31, 2008 - 06:00pm PT
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RE:
"The point was to squeeze the most experiential voltage out of the route as you could."
awesome,
LOL
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Mar 31, 2008 - 06:05pm PT
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Largo wrote
"Thing is, in all of those ground-up face fandangos I was involved in (when I was young, granted), the point was never to be "reasonable" or safe; likewise it was never to be unreasonable or unsafe. The point was to squeeze the most experiential voltage out of the route as you could. It was always understood that some routes simply had too many volts, at least for me, and so I didn't try or do these routes, be they new routes or repeats. "
So are you really just speaking for yourself John or should we read between the lines and infer that a route like this should be done by those capable of doing them from the ground up with the little protection they could place on lead (which in this case would be almost none)?
I'm just speaking for myself. I look back at all the crazy stuff we used to do to avoid placing extra bolts and all the times I scared myself stiff and it seems almost ridiculous. But I wouldn't have wanted it any other way and I wouldn't trade my experience for anyone elses. I don't expect others to climb like we did but I don't know anyone from back then who regrets climbing ground up.
But frankly I don't much care how anyone else climbs - never have, and I certainly don't condem Doug or anyone else. Tastes differ. Existential voltange is not the currency for everyone. Nor am I worried that wall will be overrun by rap bolters. The South Face (absolutly spectuacular photos - what a freaking wall!!) has been there forever and how many parties have gone up there from thee ground or from above?? People are lazy.
JL
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 06:12pm PT
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Largo wrote: 'm just speaking for myself. I look back at all the crazy stuff we used to do to avoid placing extra bolts and all the times I scared myself stiff and it seems almost ridiculous. But I wouldn't have wanted it any other way and I wouldn't trade my experience for anyone elses. I don't expect others to climb like we did but I don't know anyone from back then who regrets climbing ground up.
Nice John...my feelings on the matter too. I'm not the same person I was 30 years ago and things changed for me....I'm thankful for that.
Sounds like Doug had a great adventure and experience and really and it took a great effort and amount time. I feel a little jealous.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Mar 31, 2008 - 06:34pm PT
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Here here..
I'm definitely not up for quite the same voltage myself. (I liked that too Largo, "experiential voltage" ) Yeah, there was all kinds of voltage back then.....
30 years later, and a family with four kids and it doesn't mean exactly the same thing. My ethics were somewhat flexible back then, and I found myself being quite a bit more cautious even the last time I was on the Captain...But wouldn't change a thing from back then.
Thirty foot runouts? Maybe true, but previewed runouts are not the same as coming at them from below, first try. That's what other guys will have to do.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 07:30pm PT
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I believe Largo's point was that "responsible" is an irony in climbing, because what we do is by its nature irresponsible - we risk our lives for our own selfish thrills.
The "public service" spin of creating a "first PG rated" 1000' rap bolted mostly 5.10 slab above a 5.12a/5.13a corner and 60' bolt ladder is ludicrous. Very few will be motivated to repeat that. And to suggest somebody is going to gain 4800' to get to the top of Half Dome, to rap down a couple of pitches for a 5.10 slab is pretty high fantasy in my view, when they can get it roadside in the Meadows, Valley and many other spots.
The 1000' slab was rap bolted so Sean Jones would have a route that is a "success", by going to the top of Half Dome. It's about Yosemite first ascent #91. It may be related to the demands of being a sponsored climber - getting the FAs in print, helping friends get nice photos and movie footage. And about the challenge of trying to do a big new free route, too. I'm sure there is some very good quality climbing on it, and it's "safe", but the story behind it is plain ugly. It is not motivational to me.
Is it Sean Jones' fault that routes which do not reach the summit may be less valued? If he stopped at the end of the arch, would someone else come along and get full credit for the FA in the guidebook if they "punched it through on aid", just like when Clevenger "succeeded where Higgins and Kamps had failed" on Piece de Resistance? If someone came in like the Uriostes in Red Rocks and made a bolt ladder, then removed 2/3s of the bolts to created a bolted free climb, would that be better? It hardly seems inspirational, either.
I enjoyed the history and interviews in Doug's article very much. But it felt ironic that the history of adventure was ignored for the upper part of this route. Is the implication that adventure is dead on Half Dome now? - all the worthwhile ground up routes have already been done? Repeats are somehow less worthy than FAs?
I think Kevin Worrall and Randy Vogel have made a good case that it may have been the only way he could get the upper route established (without creating a mess with a lot of extra holes). So I think it is a question (which others have raised also) of whether that part *should have* been done. Similar to the discussion on Wings of Steel.
Karl's arguments are usually good and I respect his balancing viewpoints. But in this thread, some of his arguments are disappointing (for example the concept that the South Face is restricted to extreme runout routes). I am usually sympathetic to the idea that it doesn't matter for subsequent ascents how the bolts got in, only where they are. But the back story on this route does affect the motivation of other folks to repeat it. It is not the same as rap bolting a 100' pitch somewhere - for those routes we have lower expectations and it is easier to get motivated by the observable climbing on them.
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Gene
climber
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Mar 31, 2008 - 07:38pm PT
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Why now? Are today's climbers the best that will ever be?
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 31, 2008 - 07:46pm PT
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fattrad
You can't ban rap bolting, now you behave and keep your govt. buisness out of climbing.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Mar 31, 2008 - 07:53pm PT
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"I'm with Werner on this one and it's possible that soon I will be in a position to put in place a ban on rap bolting. Get your routes done soon, if that's your standard.
Jody's evil twin."
I wondered how long this thread would go before we had one of the conservatives calling for more government regulation.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 07:54pm PT
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Clint wrote: Karl's arguments are usually good and I respect his balancing viewpoints. But in this thread, some of his arguments are disappointing (for example the concept that the South Face is restricted to extreme runout routes). I am usually sympathetic to the idea that it doesn't matter for subsequent ascents how the bolts got in, only where they are. But the back story on this route does affect the motivation of other folks to repeat it. It is not the same as rap bolting a 100' pitch somewhere - for those routes we have lower expectations and it is easier to get motivated by the observable climbing on them.
The only reason that are disappointing is because you don't agree with them.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Mar 31, 2008 - 07:57pm PT
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We all know what those "tap, tap, tap" signals mean in the GOP!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 07:58pm PT
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Bob,
> The only reason that are disappointing is because you don't agree with them.
Not true. His conclusions could have been supported by better arguments. Whether I agree with his conclusions or not is irrelevant to my comment on the quality of his argument.
For example in Karl's first post he used the technique of "distort what the person said, then refute the distorted version instead of what the person really said". (It may have not been intentional on his part). I expect better from Karl and he usually delivers!
Here's the quote, to be concrete:
Personally, I don't see the value in restricting routes on Half Dome to strictly ones with dangerous runouts. Should every harder route be equipped to only get an ascent every 5-8 years? It just ain't possible to make certain routes ground up with any kinda safety (or even without safety)
Karl's point here is that if you go ground up, there are probably not enough stances on that upper slab and it will be runout as a result. And runout is bad because the route will not get much traffic (I am somewhat sympathetic to that last part). But the route could be done Urioste style with bolt ladders (or Harding style with batholes) and then pulling/patching if there are not enough stances. This yields a safe, ground up route. So ground up does not necessarily imply unsafe, and does not imply very low traffic (although unsafe does imply low traffic). Karl may have just overlooked this option, if he was thinking about Southern Belle (vs. say the Harding-Rowell route).
The original argument which Karl wanted to refute was that the route should have been done ground up. The original argument was not that all routes on the slab part of Half Dome should be runout.
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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Mar 31, 2008 - 08:00pm PT
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i know i am not a true Yosemite climber but we (not I) climb hard routes ground up with no bolts all the time (maybe not the size of half dome)
good example:
angel: Etive Slabs E7 6b 250 m no bolts or pins and very poor gear (hard 5.12 - 5.13 ish), 50 degree slab no holds no pro just you and friction
FA Dave "Cubby" Cuthbertson in 97'
http://www.cubbyimages.co.uk/index.asp
there is also the more run out but less dangerous route "Gecko" to its right at E6 6b
there have been maybe three ascents to date of each.
other example is not slab but dam hard would be Dave Mac's new Ben Nevis route
Don’t Die of Ignorance XI,11
http://www.davemacleod.blogspot.com/
i think he placed some pins on the route but thats still grey area in Scotland's winter ethics and personally i do it all the time. ground up in the mountains.
the British have a very different outlook on bolts from a Yosemite climber, you guys will all say that its because your routes are longer. thats not what we think! we have cliffs at 1800' and there are no bolts. if Yosemite was in Scotland there would be no bolts, just think of how few el cap routes there would be.
it is even worse ethics to place your gear on a rap line before climbing your route. sorry but it is
just my 1 pence (about $.02 considering the exchange rate)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 08:17pm PT
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Clint wrote: Karl's point here is that if you go ground up, there are probably not enough stances on that upper slab and it will be runout as a result. And runout is bad because the route will not get much traffic (I am somewhat sympathetic to that last part). But the route could be done Urioste style with bolt ladders and then pulling/patching if there are not enough stances. This yields a safe, ground up route. So ground up does not necessarily imply unsafe, and does not imply very low traffic (although unsafe does imply low traffic). Karl may have just overlooked this option, if he was thinking about Southern Belle (vs. say the Harding-Rowell route).
Clint...it goes both way...rap-placed-routes don't mean overbolted, safe or more ascents. The real crux for most people is the quality of the climbing, gear, position and fun-factor.
Bad routes exist ground up and rap-placed. Also what is the sense of placing a bolt ladder and then going back and pulled and patch bolts...just to say up did it ground up?? Weird!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 08:30pm PT
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Fattrad wrote: And, what's wrong with a low traffic volumne route that only the few bold and capable climbers attempt?
Jody's evil twin.
Nothing...I still think there is enough room on that face...hurry up fat....the clock is ticking.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Mar 31, 2008 - 08:41pm PT
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Here's to the Southern Belle boys with the giant danglers!!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 08:43pm PT
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Fat....don't expect of others what you are not willing to do yourself. :)
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Mar 31, 2008 - 08:59pm PT
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Klaus,
The route is entirely new, on terrain that had never been touched from bottom to top.
There has been some confusion from the guidebooks showing incorrectly the line of the original Harding-Rowell South Face aid route starting up the corner this route is in. That turned out to be incorrect.
To clarify, three separate crack lines leave the ground within that giant corner of the biggest arch on the face. The right-hand one is Southern Belle. The middle one is Harding-Rowell. The left one was untouched until last summer and is now Growing Up.
Starting off the ground the crack pitches go 5.10a, 5.12a, 5.12a, 5.12a, 5.12a, 5.12a, 5.12a, 5.13a (crux tips lieback), then 5.11-something across a dike 20' under the ceiling. Sean can confirm this to be certain I've got it right.
Wish I had Sean's topo to post up. Rock & Ice was going to print it but then ran out of space.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Mar 31, 2008 - 09:03pm PT
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Tough subject as I have very mixed emotions on the issue. I've seen it from just about every angle as well as I've bolted bottom up, top down, replaced mank, have been chopped, have chopped.
To me the most rewarding climbs personally have been done from the ground up. Whether hand drilling from a stance, or pulling up a power drill on a zip line that is hanging from the last bolt on a fifi hook. But dang it's mucho work, and honestly some bolt placements have been botched due to a less than steller position to place the bolt. Some of the rap bolted routes have been very well recieved, especially an established tr problem that I still have misgivings about bolting.
As to the comment about sense of adventure, absolutely, for the first ascent party. But once there is a topo and the route is publisized, the future ascent parties will never experience the adventure of the first ascent. They'll get to see if they are good enough, but they'll never have to doubt if the route gos, rather just if they can make it. They'll never know if the bolts went in bottom up or top down, but they will be left feeling either that's an incredible route or it was a cluge, or something in between.
At the end of the of the day, what I think all FA parties should consider is if they place permanent anchors, they should be good ones.
I would hate to see the day of the adventure climb dissapear, but I also wouldn't like to see how a route is put up mandated by law. I doubt that will happen as the government would be putting themselves in a liability pickle by dictating how a bolt is placed. Be sure that it would only be a matter of time before somebody greases off a stance, get's hurt, and the guvment get's sued for not allowing the climber use a safer means of placing the gear. If anything it could very well signal the end of placing permanent anchors.
As to the comments across the pond regarding the adventurous grit routes, it's my understanding that the majority of them can be top roped, and often are top roped before a lead or solo. That is the opposite of most Yosemite climbs that have to be climbed on lead.
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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Mar 31, 2008 - 09:10pm PT
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tolman:
your comment applys to most hard routes on grit and some recent hard routes further north in Scotland however both routes cited were ground up with-out top roping.
the top roping situation is a current and long lived debate much like what you are having now. in Scotland there are few places where it would be possible (eg dumbarton rock and other small cliff) but our mountains are rather too large to be top roped.
we consider that personal feelings toward a route are not a reason to bolt it nor is the excuse of safety. if the line is meant to go then it will go, it simply awaits the correct person. you should not lower the bar just so you can climb the rock, leave it for someone better than you.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Mar 31, 2008 - 09:22pm PT
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hello bob-
you seem to have a pretty accepting stance here in this thread.
just for clarity, care to briefly discuss your history of FAs and the style you chose to put them up in, as well as the various reactions you may have had from the climbing community?
thanks in advance.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 09:24pm PT
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Bob,
> ...it goes both way...rap-placed-routes don't mean overbolted, safe or more ascents. The real crux for most people is the quality of the climbing, gear, position and fun-factor.
I very much agree, in the context of shorter climbs. For longer climbs (in the sense of more effort on approach and logistics), motivation (in terms of the history of the route) can also be important.
This can be in the sense of "recreating" the first ascent experience. Like for example, I was doing Flying Buttress Direct on Sentinel a few years ago, and we came to a junction where we could stay on the north face or go around the corner onto the west face. There wasn't any obvious fixed gear to guide the way. So I got to ask myself the questions, what would I do here if I was Kor? (I went onto the West Face; of course my guess could have been wrong, but I got to face the same question he did).
> Bad routes exist ground up and rap-placed.
Agreed.
> Also what is the sense of placing a bolt ladder and then going back and pulled and patch bolts...just to say up did it ground up?? Weird!
Weird, sure, by some viewpoints. (In some places like parts of Red Rocks and Smith Rock or various caves, top down is not feasible, so aid/intermediate holes of one sort or another get used). Going ground up does change the experience for the people on the FA, because they have to decide which way to go based on their view from below about what might be promising features above. On subsequent ascents, people get the same view (except for visible fixed gear) and get a sense of the same choices. On a rap placed route, on the second ascent the viewpoint may be: "the FA people must have seen some good stuff up there on rap, because I sure can't see much from here!". This perspective may not matter to all, but it does matter to some. And it matters more if the route is longer or routefinding is more complex.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 31, 2008 - 09:24pm PT
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This is a pretty good discussion so far. I'd like to say some stuff, not necessarily to weave a coherent stance or make any great sense of this issue, but rather to address a couple highlights and underscore some subtlety.
For starters, I tend to favor traditional climbing. For me there is a certain tension to the energy afforded by on-site ground-up climbing. Largo's "experiential voltage" if you will. Given my background and experience, the majority of sport climbs under the 5.12 grade tend to have too many bolts, the outcome is predictable and the exercise feels repetitive, such that the experience of leading the route lacks a certain zest.
Done from the ground up and on sight, a successfully achieved ascent has a very palatable internal energetic feel. The construct of a sport climb; which encompasses things like rappelling and succinct prior knowledge, a fairly sanitized and very safe protection scheme, and in a subtle way, yes even the communal lore of its construction -for me, these things sever the energetic tension of the route. We typically know how a route was originally done and I say that does matter. In ground-up style climbing, there is an aspect of emulation at play which is quite valuable.
When Werner says the route has a soul he's describing that energetic tension that exists for the route as a possibility. I get it more as a collusion of my internal striving with the canvas which the route represents. So for me it's a relationship and I like for that energy to be as fresh and whole as possible and ground-up climbing, whether I'm doing the first ascent or following in the footsteps of a pre-established ascent, the ground up traditional style effort does the best job of retaining that essence, best characterized as a completeness and a continuity, like an independent living thing.
So that's my sense of the peculiarly distinct internal reward conferred through trad climbing. It is something that should not be overrun. It's an artistic imperative that has fewer and fewer voices and outlets in our urbanized, formalized society. Spontaneous, fluid improvisation: we need to keep that heart alive and beating.
Karl wrote:
"Actually, to be honest, the Geek Towers routes would get climbed 500%+ more if they went to the top, so I have to imagine they are "Less than Perfect according to climbers voting with their feet"
I have to say, although in the strictest sense this may be true what you say, for me, Geek Towers and the Good Book reach logical conclusions because they represent the apogee of features. As a trad climber, topping out on those things and rappelling back down affords a sense of completeness; the energetic tension is there with those climbs, they do not feel unfinished.
Personally, I feel there is plenty of room for sport climbing, whether it be a fierce 40 feet with a couple of bolts, or yes, something as big as El Capitan. I won't be telling people they shouldn't do it. Somehow, for people like John Bachar, Scott Cosgrove, and many others it seems to serve their personal truth to speak out against these competing styles. I must say, that commitment and outspoken stance has its place here and elsewhere, as it serves the dialectic.
Essentially, I'm saying there should be no resolution here, because climbing is an art form that is evolving, expanding, diverging, and converging. Different viewpoints upheld with a critical vigilance; that's how stuff of substance is made. It's a healthy conflict.
A couple comments on what others have said:
John Bachar said:
"Just for the record, it was actually Christian Griffith who wanted to rap bolt the BY. When he told me that, I went up there the next day and put the first bolt in."
Good for you John; it sends chills down my spine just thinking how close that was -- that the Bachar Yerian may never have come to exist as an expression.
In his own way, Christian has done some great sport routes and that's OK too. I am glad that Body and Soul exists, but it doesn't really bother me, or didn't bother me, when Kauk and Chapman put in that sport climb nearby. I like that there is a Bachar Yerian and the existence of Peace does not detract from it; rather it provides contrast.
Karl also wrote:
"Climbers are a lot like humans."
Now that is some of the best satire to appear in these pages.
Cheers all,
Roy
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Mar 31, 2008 - 09:32pm PT
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After seeing those great pics of the South Face, all I can say is how sorry I am that I never jumped on that wall when I was climbing crimpy face routes about 200 days a year. Win or lose, we would have had some fun. The texture of that wall looks fantastic.
JL
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 09:48pm PT
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Matt...I'll try to be brief. Over 1500 fa's trad and sport...mostly sport. I taken my fair share of hits (criticism) from both sides. I bolted on lead route up to mid-12, solo my share and done a crazy amount of high-ball boulder problems, also looking to finish a route in the Black Canyon ground up. I taken 60-70 foot falls and repeated a number of hard-trad-routes in my day. That was a personal choice and wouldn't expect others to do if they didn't feel the need. I have with age come to the conclusion that climbing isn't worth dying over. My wife and children mean way to much to me to not squeeze out every second on this earth to be with them.
My best routes are the ones that get climbed and put a smile on someone face. Bolts or no bolts on that section of Half Dome the sun will rise and set, the fighting in Iraq will continue, people will continue to starve, murders will happen and more than likely we will continue to polluted and destroy this place we call home.
I think there are bigger fish to fry!
I feel quite lucky to part of something cool and feel that 99-per-cent of the time I try my best to do what I felt was right at the time.
Sean and Doug put themselves out there on this issue and knew what would come of it. Before convicting let history be the judge of the route and keep it civil. These are people with family, friends and other things going on in their lives...they also seem like really good people.
Also...I'm not going to slander or name call on this thread...way to many people I respect posting here.
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Orion
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 10:05pm PT
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hooo ahhh!
this and the trip reports are why I come to the taco, this is a great debate with a lot of people considering their opinions, some more consideration than others, on Climbing ethics and style. Thank you.
This is soooo much better than political drivel and slander, please keep both out of this post.
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pimp daddy wayne
climber
The Bat Caves
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Mar 31, 2008 - 10:54pm PT
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What about rap chopping? I would chop on lead because I'm bad ass...............
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Mar 31, 2008 - 11:04pm PT
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Clint said it best:
"The 1000' slab was rap bolted so Sean Jones would have a route that is a "success", by going to the top of Half Dome. It's about Yosemite first ascent #91. It may be related to the demands of being a sponsored climber - getting the FAs in print, helping friends get nice photos and movie footage. And about the challenge of trying to do a big new free route, too. I'm sure there is some very good quality climbing on it, and it's "safe", but the story behind it is plain ugly."
This is the plain and obvious truth. Fattrad said it too:
"From what I've read, this was an ego route to be completed at any cost"
I don't respect the route and, if I could climb that hard, it would be of no interest to me. I would point out though, one redeeming act that I think everyone here can agree on. At least they were up front and totally honest about it. Although I've lost a lot of respect for Doug (who I've never met, but always admired), at least he's willing to post publicly, truthfully and thoughtfully. That I do respect.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
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This can either be a debate about ethics, or it can be a debate about how big of an ass Sean Jones is.
I don't feel qualified to discuss the former; I've seen pictures of the bolted crack and I've also heard there's ~60 feet of shady bolting ethics.
On the latter, well, he wants his name all over guidebooks, and I've heard him say it and I've heard his close friends say it. As in Clint's example of the bolted arete, it's not like no one could have done these climbs first. Most of the crap he's doing seems to be mungy and gross trad lines or sport lines that no one wanted to bolt because trad lines don't fly in the Valley.
It's not like he's an original, and I'm certain many of his 90 "first ascents" were done by others who didn't feel like mentioning the chossy crap they had just sent. Obviously, he's a good climber, but he doesn't seem to understand quality over quantity.
To me, it seems like most of what he's doing is cheap and easy, and even if his name is all over the guidebooks like he wants, a good number of people will never respect what he's done because it's cheap and easy.
But I could be wrong.
Realistically, his kids are fantastic and so is his wife, and I very much respect how he's trying to take care of them. That probably makes his climbing less ethical, because he's overbolting to be safe or something.
He grew up in Mariposa (close to the West entrance) and does seem to have an absurdly strong sense of posession toward Yosemite/the Sierra Nevada. I think there are plenty of people here who will outright scoff at that, as have I.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Mar 31, 2008 - 11:32pm PT
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Well, in the long run I believe this kind of dialogue is beneficial. Many good arguments have been made on both sides of this issue. For what it is worth, I would like to share that many years ago Doug Robinson came to my school, at my request, to present a climbing slide show to students in hopes of giving them a positive perspective on life. Following the slide show, Doug volunteered to meet with a group of advance english students to talk about writing. He stayed until all student questions were answered and left quite an impression in the minds of some talented adolescents. Somebody mentioned this in a post above, but ultimately I judge people based on their integrity. Doug Robinson demonstrated integrity many years ago when he freely gave of his time to work with kids, and he demonstrated it again on this thread when he forthrightly explained what he was thinking regarding this climb. As I said earlier........Thanks Doug...I'm good !!
Cracko
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 11:41pm PT
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Mtnyoung & Domingo....your posts are nothing but speculation and hear say. Good job!
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Mar 31, 2008 - 11:49pm PT
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> Bob, I've admitted what's hearsay and speculation, but this whole thread is generally speculation. For one, none of us have climbed this route. For two, it's a Supertopo debate on climbing ethics. I mean, you can't narrow a damn thing down, even if you wanted to; people are going to decide for themselves.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 31, 2008 - 11:58pm PT
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domingo wrote: This can either be a debate about ethics, or it can be a debate about how big of an ass Sean Jones is.
So what does this statement have to climbing styles/ethics????
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Mar 31, 2008 - 11:59pm PT
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Ask yourself this. In terms of style/ethics/heart/soul, which route is more admirable in your own eyes, Growing Up or Southern Belle? Sure, I'm looking from far away in miles, years and ability, but even from way out here I like Southern Belle better....
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Owlman
Social climber
Montucky
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Oh man. I'm hurting inside on this one.
I was inspired to start climbing by Doug, Dennis, and Galen's "clean ascent of the NW Face of Half Dome" article in National Geographic, 1974 issue. Dennis was on the cover shot, hooking on the second to last pitch. The attitude was that the clean approach, hammerless, brought more respect into the relationship between climber and wall, human and wildness, and it was almost, gag, spiritual, for me...I was inspired.
I still think the ground up style IS part of the heart and soul.
I think we all suffer from the act. We are somehow accountable. I think that route should be removed and I don't think it deserves to be there, whether I climb it or ignore it. I think "Growing UP" is devolution. I think Doug's excuses are lame. Safety, age, wives and Children are poor excuses to play it safe, and lower the standards.
I want you rap bolters to stay the hell off Half Dome.
Go somewhere else. The money changers are in the Temple!
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Ah yes, I did want to clarify that:
I'm not calling him an ass, and honestly don't think he's an ass, if you're wondering; also, I'm pretty sarcastic and it doesn't tend to come off so well over the internetz, so you may not have picked up on it.
In all honesty, I was making a jest about the two sides of this thread. It seems like some people are decided against climbing the route not only because it was rap-bolted but also because it was rap-bolted by someone who, outside of Yosemite, is kind of unheard of, and also by Doug Robinson, hero of the clean climbs before he got 'over the hill', so to speak.
So yeah, it's all conjecture and I'm being rather obscure, but I admit, I wonder if Ronk Kauk had done this line whether it would cause the same fuss.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Domingo, those are pretty intense words to say about someone you never met.
A long time ago (well not that long. Some of you dudes are like 90 years old) when I started climbing in a gym, Bachars name was synonymous with a-hole. He was the guy who was trying to stop climbing progression, who would rather die than do something as tame as rap bolting.
Some time later, I began climbing outside of the San Diego scene. I went to Joshua tree and Suicide and Tahquitz. I gained an appreciation of what it meant to "do a route," not just "go climbing." Stories came out, beers were passed around, and climbing became more than just a sport. Sport climbing isn't about bolts. Its about mentality.
Sometimes I laugh a bit when someone asks if I went "trad Climbing." I see Sonnie Trotter (who, btw, is a badass) hanging on a TR, putting gear every 4 feet on a crack, and see that win the "trad climbing" golden piton award and wonder to myself, yet only so much, because not long ago to me trad climbing was something seperate entirely.
Maybe trad climbing is a bad word, maybe we have Sport Climbing and Lifestyle climbing. When it becomes your life and takes over, it isn't a sport anymore.
Long story even longer, you can never really know somebody until you meet them. Let the route speak for the route. You may find out like I did that what you feel right now about something may change.... Bachar is a good guy. Maybe sean is too.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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How do you know I haven't met him? :) In any case, it's his style that I don't like, and I do have strong opinions about things. I like Dean Potter, in some senses (haven't met him, honestly), but I do have strong and negative opinions with the 'Delicate Arch Publicity Stunt.'
Also, do read my clarification. Bridwell was an as#@&%e too, I hear. And Harding. We're all bad people.
Except Ouch.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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'Climbing' > 'trad climbing' > 'adventure climbing' (abominable)
And in about another 10 years or so it will probably be called 'danger climbing' or 'death climbing' as climbing is further sanitized of risk. Climbing, for the vast majority of today's climbers (my guess is 80-85%), is simply just another [bolt-dependent] risk-free entertainment option now well-inculcated into suburban pop culture. And while "Growing Up" is far from anyone's definition of a 'mainstream' route, it still manages to raise the full spectrum of trad vs. sport issues and arguments - many in Doug's post alone:
Changing values of aging climbers
Groundup vs. Topdown
Onsight vs. Previewing
Movement vs. Risk
X-rated exclusionary lines / zones
'Establishing' vs. 'Developing' routes
Self-expression vs. Community Service
'Quality' vs. Abandoned lines
Consumption today vs. Saving for better climbers
Respecting rock as a resource vs. Use as another consumable 'good'
Risk-free entertainment vs. Passionate risktaking
Entitled vs. Earned
'Improving' vs. 'Corrupting' climbing
Potential future costs of thresholding acceptable levels of 'safety', 'risk', and 'adventure'
Environmental 'importance' scoping
Yosemite big walls have never been, and will never be, immune to such disagreements. Yet whether we're talking the Valley or any other rock, one can argue precedents matter as do the fundamental mindset and 'philosophy of use' they convey to the next generation of climbers, land managers, and the public at large.
I for one happen to believe it really can be a 'slippery slope' in terms of how new lines define or redefine the words "safety", "risk", "access", and "use" in today's world. I also think the perception of 'safety' and 'safe climbs' as an entitlement has steadily grown to dominate the definition of what 'climbing' is today for the majority of the people who
now identify themselves as 'climbers'. This isn't a good thing in my view, but I'm clearly a very small minority in that respect.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Actually Bob, my post doesn't contain any hearsay, just affirmations of other's opinions. Opinions that appear to me to be irrefutably true. Oh, and an observation of my own about the value of honesty.
While I've got your attention, earlier in this thread you posted (about North Carolinians):
"Some still married their cousins in certain parts of NC..."
Did these words actually have anything to do with climbing or with this route and this discussion? That post bugged the crap out of me in so many ways. Would you consider editing it? It certainly isn't consistent with your other, later posts that "I'm not going to slander or name call on this thread," and "Good post Doug and way to keep it non-combative...a few here could learn a lesson." The two latter posts seem more like you.
Just an observation.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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This will hit 300 posts...easily and that a good thing.
Mtnyoung..I wrote that tongue and cheek to show how hearsay and speculation can be so ignorant. Sorry if it offended anyone.
Mtnyoung wrote: Opinions that appear to me to be irrefutably true.
No they are still just opinions.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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It is refreshing to me to see in print the shared wisdom, feelings, philosophies, history, and styles of American Climbing voiced on this thread.
I have very little if anything to add other than to acknowledge the great debate which for the most part is way more civil than past ones.
Tarbuster, dude, you nailed it for me and I suspect for many others. Thanks for putting words to the soul of which Werner speaks.
Cheers,
DD
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Yeah domingo you posted your clarification while my stubby fingers were still processing. The whole Beer to brain to hands to screen thing for me is a slow process.
After re-reading your post i did get the sarcasm, hehe. See, I assumed you didn't know him. Thats what happens when you assume! You make an ass out of u and me.... so stupid. When someone says that to me i want to punch them right in their faces. as hard as i can. with my fists.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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First, I join others in saying "thanks" to Doug for posting. It would have been beyond disappointing if he failed to post. I will not say his current words have changed my opinion at all, but thanks.
I also want to say a personal "thanks" to everyone for stepping up to the plate with opinions on this delicate matter. Sure is a HELL OF A LOT BETTER than reading about politics!
Clint wrote "The 1000' slab was rap bolted so Sean Jones would have a route that is a "success", by going to the top of Half Dome. It's about Yosemite first ascent #91. It may be related to the demands of being a sponsored climber - getting the FAs in print, helping friends get nice photos and movie footage. And about the challenge of trying to do a big new free route, too. I'm sure there is some very good quality climbing on it, and it's "safe", but the story behind it is plain ugly. It is not motivational to me.
For me those words, "...the story behind it is plain ugly." say it all. There is so much untapped rock in this world to practice sponsorship retention on, why Half Dome? Why the Valley. Like many here, I have watched traditions and acceptable practices change, move forward, lunge backwards, crash to a halt and change directions yet again. I guess we will have to accept this route as another change in acceptable practices. The question on the horizon is, what happens next?
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moss hog
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Just reading through this gives a great perspective on what an emotional issue this can become. It is clear that climbers from myriad backgrounds and generations are still debating what is the appropriate way to put up a route, how much autonomy an individual climber should have in choosing his or her methods and who is morally entitled to hold them accountable. (This aforementioned moral jury has propogated extensively with the advent of the internet.) The emotions evoked by this debate has blown many a passionately opinionated contributor off course, causing them to deviate from the ethical debate at hand and into muddier waters of character analysis. Whether or not the disclaimer of sarcasm is invoked to atone for astringent character incursion, harsh words said (and especially typed) are indelible. I am less sorry to hear of the devolution of climbing than I am to hear of the devolution of climbers.
Burrrrp!
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WBraun
climber
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Hatesplastic -- "The question on the horizon is, what happens next?"
Hahaha easy.... you go on living.
I like how Bob D' says the human side is what counts.
The other stuff is just stuff. Blah! I don't make much sense when I read what I write.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I dunno Werner, I like to think of rock as more than just 'stuff'. And as far as I'm concerned, the 'human' side of things - our wants, needs, and entitlements - are well-represented in the current balance.
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Okay, since this thread is indeed guilty of quite a bit of it, lets get our definitions straight. In my dictionary, "hearsay" is defined as, "Information or a rumor heard from another." I believe I could reference several of my own guilty examples.
However, following the citation of opinion-based information Mtnyoung wrote: "Opinions that appear to me to be irrefutably true."
I believe that counts as referencing secondhand information to advance an argument--also known as using hearsay for the purposes of debate. Now, if Brad wants to get into the lawyeristic nitty-gritty of hearsay, he can start another thread. As for myself, I would appreciate it if we all try to cut down on the bullshiit.
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WBraun
climber
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OK healyje
Tomorrow I will get a rock and study ......
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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"Sure is a HELL OF A LOT BETTER than reading about politics!"
OH snap, that's my que to post up on climbing principles of ethics and style...
1. I can do whatever I want so long as I don't violate land manager rules. so f' off.
2. It's wrong to do things in bad style, so you shouldn't try. Leave the good lines alone for those better than you.
yep, that about covers it.
;)
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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I read the rock & ice article when it came out...
and I was psyched! Looks rad!
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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We will come and go as insects.
The rocks will remain.
We are inconsequential, one mighty rockfall could crush us all.
The stone is merely biding its time, of which it has plenty.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There has been a lot of interesting and informative discussion upthread, and I look forward to hearing what the second ascent party thinks of the climb. I suggest that we think of other perspectives, though. Perhaps we should consider how outsiders might react to the creation of routes such as this, and to the debates within the climbing community about them. Climbers aren't the only people who read SuperTopo.
I'm not for a moment suggesting any concerns about the route, or how it was done. AFAIK, the only relevant NPS rules are no power drills, don't endanger the public, leave the critters alone, and clean up after yourself. All of which I'm sure were fully complied with - indeed, I suspect Doug could teach the NPS a thing or two about Leave no Trace techniques.
It's more how others might perceive us, whether in relation to this route, or others. Half Dome is in a national park. Climbers are by and large allowed to self-regulate in Yosemite, at least with respect to matters of style and technique. We arguably have more freedom than many other user groups. It's only when our behaviours impinge on others or the environment, or are perceived to, that we get regulated there. (Referring to climbing proper - not camping, parking, driving, food storage and day to day living.)
For now, this climb stands as one of a kind - the nearest similar route to its upper half is perhaps Hall of Mirrors. We're having a spirited discussion about whether it was established in a style that is acceptable in Yosemite, how we decide if a style is acceptable, and (indirectly) whether other such routes should be accepted. That's good - not too much name calling is going on. Some things will have to wait for the perspectives from a second ascent, of course.
But it may be useful to think about how land managers, the public, and conservationists might look at and react to the climb. There doesn't seem to be any reason that those with authority should do anything, but you never know. Their perspectives and agendas aren't the same as ours.
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James
climber
a porch in Chinese Camp
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Ground up first free ascent of a formation as big as Half Dome. Sounds hard. Maybe even unrealistic to the strong who try to make second free ascents. It's unreasonable to force ethics onto others unless you've been their yourself.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Would it make a difference in anybody's opinion on this topic if the FA party had just inspected the face on rappel, scoped out the line and then bolted it on lead from the ground up? Just curious.
Bruce
ps - I read Doug Robinson's post and all it said to me is that he felt the end justifies the means. That's not good enough in my book.
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Doug Buchanan
Trad climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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How much these human minds discuss the decisions of other minds, rather than make their own decisions, for the amusement of the observers.
It is an equal endeavor, as much fun, to erase the pro, for just as good a story, to leave the next chaps with the same effort as the first sorts if they wish to do the route in that style, but there is so much rock to climb in the world, in the style one chooses, that a climber might instead prefer to do so, leaving the previous route to the events of history and a burgeoning population of diverse equals.
Make your own decisions, and have fun doing that, but to retain the freedom to do so, always conclude your disapproval of the other climber's decisions that create no real damage, with absolute support for his or her freedom to do so, because the mental midget National Park Service thugs and other government dolts of every government are predicated on any rhetorical excuses to tax you more to pay themselves more to make more of your decisions for you, a fool's quest, and force their self-serving decisions on you, under threat of jail.
Your choice. Climbing being a unique expression of freedom, some of the finest climbers in the world never climbed, but defended your climbing freedom, while some of the most repugnant sorts of the subculture climbed Sagarmatha herself, are still adulated by fools and derived much money supporting the National Park Service's taxation and restrictions on non-politically privileged climbers.
Enjoy the comedy of the humans.
DougBuchanan.com
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Several have said they were happy to see a non-political thread...
How is this thread not political?
It is full of posts of people with huge egos trying to impose their own beliefs on style to restrict how others can climb. I dare say a significant number of those might even restrict climbing styles to those consistent with their beliefs, if they had the power to do so.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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It is a "climbing" politics thread, rather than McCain vs Dems politics...still good news.
"Full" of posts by people with huge egos? Maybe a little, but hardly "full". You think Sean doesn't have a huge ego? Or possibly even Doug?
I don't see anyone except Fattrad suggesting "imposing" either.
Even your handle, TradIsGood, suggests a certain agreement with this whole discussion. Maybe you should change it to AnythingGoes? No offense intended, just pointing out a certain...er...contradiction.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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You can count them. Plenty of posts about leaving the Half Dome unchanged. Restriction is requlation. Those posts are about reducing liberty, which to my way of thinking is political. I think neo-cons vs dems or whatever is preferable. At least it doesn't matter. :-)
Pretty sure fattrad was tongue in cheek.
AnyThingGoesIsGood
EDIT: Nothing wrong with having a big ego, until that person starts deciding what is right for everybody else.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Thank you bob, for the edits. I suspected that the one comment was tongue in cheek, but it really looked bad in black and white. Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion?
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Billygoat: with respect (and no "lawyerese,") can I say one more thing about hearsay? Your definition is a good one: "hearsay" is defined as, 'Information or a rumor heard from another'."
So here, if Clint had put forth some fact and I repeated it, that would be hearsay. I think the part of his comment that I quoted was all or mostly his opinion, not fact (that is to say, it wasn't "information or rumor"). Fattrad too.
What I did was endorse their opinions. And, for what it was worth, I added my own.
And, BTW, what's wrong with a climber's discussion containing lots of bullshtt? Isn't that a hallowed tradition?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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The filming and extensive photo-documentation is another aspect of this particular climb that suggests there is more to the story than just putting a "modern" route up the South Face of Half Dome.
Perhaps Doug could fill us in on the details of the rigging specifically provided for all that work. The photos in the R&I story are wonderful, but as we see throughout the STForum "history" threads, there were seldom high quality photographs taken of Valley historic FAs on route, and even less taken from modern angles in the aesthetic of Eppy... e.g. shot from above, off route, out from the cliff.
And there is the movie. The one other movie I remember is "Free Climb" produced by Robert Godfrey which documents Erickson's and Higbee's attempt to free the NWFHD which was shot by Frost. In that movie the FFA attempt ends in having to do the last few moves on aid, to which Erickson declares a "magnificent failure." From a modern perspective the multiple attempts to free sections, like the Zig-Zags, with falls and hangs, etc, seem pretty tame, but in 1976 were a matter of debate on style.
Erickson and Higbee are granted FFA status in Reid's guide, but I suspect that they didn't meet their own standard of what constitutes an FFA.
Planning on filming an FA on a notoriously difficult face is a tremendously risky decision. I have in my mind the final fade, panning back from the golden wall at sunset with the voice over saying how the climb just didn't go, stopped by the "natural defense" of blankness. The climber protagonist saying those brave words about the capabilities of future climbers, lah-de-dah-dah...
...instead we'll hear about why pushing through to the top at all cost was the right thing to do.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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When and where will this film be available for viewing?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Werner and Healyje
My wife took a sociology class recently where they had to wander the campus and find a stone that would talk to them. They had to sit with the stone and have a conversation. Seems this is what the Indians used to do. Ask Ron, maybe he has a view on this.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I definitely missed that filming the FA was involved and on doing a quick look at their production company's site you can see they were promoting this film before the attempt. I have to agree with Ed it sounds a like a lot at stake. Clearly folks were going to be rapping anyway for the filming, and with such an investment involved his point is well-taken that other motivating factors were likely involved with the decisions taken to arrive at that outcome.
Not sure where the dividing line is in this case between simply doing something and investing heavily in a commercial venture built around that doing. Would they really have had a viable product in a film about Half Dome without this climb / FA in it? All in all, the commercial / film aspects of this FA throw the whole affair in an entirely different light - clearly, a bit more than ethics and style were involved the decision making process, which makes this discussion somewhat mute from my perspective. I'd say the better question to ask is whether having a great film on Half Dome was (in a manner of speaking) worth rap bolting to the top for?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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bhilden: Would it make a difference in anybody's opinion on this topic if
the FA party had just inspected the face on rappel, scoped out the line and
then bolted it on lead from the ground up?
DR: Most places it's too steep to stance drill. It's scallpoed and polished
in a way that doesn't lend itself to hook drilling.
So their choice: Attempt to put up another scare-fest that will rarely get
climbed, and then if climbed, done so only by the very elite. Or put up a
route that can be enjoyed by enthusiasts?
I see the opinion that this is not an actual step forward, and that of all
places to do this, Half Dome. Does it not seem ironic that the man who's
picture on the cover of National Geographic, of him climbing Half Dome,
ushered in the age of clean climbing is the same person who helped open
Growing Up?
How many Grade VI free climbs have been established without any aid? Are there
any in the Valley?
If you dis this route, yet climb and enjoy routes that were put in in less
than perfect style, are you not a hypocrite?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
|
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I think I just woke up...
Ed wrote, "The filming and extensive photo-documentation is another aspect of this particular climb that suggests there is more to the story than just putting a "modern" route up the South Face of Half Dome."
I will not claim this is what Ed was alluding to, but I now see the possibility of this being nothing more than a commercial venture. Sean gets more sponsor money to buy more bolts and a longer rap rope. Doug has a new reel to show to investors. Shawn has a cover shot and plenty of stock images to sell. And everyone is talking about the whole thing. There is no bad PR...
EDIT: Do you need a permit to make a commercial film in the Park? I think I know the answer.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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There aren't any "enthusiasts" that will do a route with that many 5.11 & 5.12 pitches on it. It's still for the elite.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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There aren't any "enthusiasts" that will do a route with that many
5.11 & 5.12 pitches on it. It's still for the elite.
This climb is in the range of many, many climbers.
The other routes on the S Face, few x few.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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OK, I've now read this entire thread (no small feat) and figured I'd throw in my thoughts.
When first reading the mag article and seeing the pictures I was psyched. It looks to be a beautiful line up a seldom visited piece of stone. For the efforts involved to establish the line, these guys get some applause from this corner.
As to the method in which they bolted the upper portion, I can't take offense. But, I'll be the first to point out that I'm primarily a sport climber these days and that more and more, I too place bolts on rappel. In my mind the quality of the climbing, correct location of the protection, etc. left behind by the one doing the bolting matters more (to me) than the way in which they were placed.
I don't know either of the FA party members, but know that they seem to have both fans and haters in this community (as shown in the posts above). As such, I can't really speak to their integrity or character personally.
The thing that sticks in my mind the most negatively about this whole thing is the publicity side of it. Properly photographing this route, and now we find out filming it as well if that happened, requires a lot of added work and a certain amount of hubris when setting the whole thing up before hand. It also explains some of the necessity for a successful, complete ascent. I really don't have a problem with the route itself or the decisions made in how the upper portion was protected, but it seems as though the marketability of the route had as much to do with the FA party's motivation as the climbing itself. In my mind, that's a real shame.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Getting paid to do something fun is unamerican.
Next thing you know we'll have a commissioner, drug testing, and Spitzer will want to do it.
Let's have a Congressional hearing before this gets entirely out of hand!
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Is it a torch, or a burning cow pie?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Then other SFHD routes are within the range of many many "enthusiasts" also.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
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Chop it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
fattrad, instead of resorting to violence, perhaps see this has an opportunity. Free climb
up to where they started rap-bolting, then bust out on your own ground-up route.
Sucks, you could even call it "Growing Ys."
PS. If you chop it, would you do it ground-up style? Much like Robbins on the DW.
To rap in and chop wouldn't really make the best statement.
EDIT: Reading backwards, I see Karl already mentioned this option,
sorry, not trying to steal ideas ;-)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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The funny part is that some people on his tread wouldn't be offended by more bolts, placed in wrong spot as long as the route was done ground up....because it fits into their almost Taliban way of thinking how we should rock climb. Weird.
The route looks beautiful. Hopefully someone will climb the route and give a first hand account on the quality of the stone and protection situation.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Then other SFHD routes are within the range of many many "enthusiasts" also.
Now you're just being belligerent. My bet, this route gets repeated before any other SFHD
route gets a repeat. And that it will tally more ascents than any of the other existing
routes, combined. Check back in 10 years...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Again, it turns out, this wasn't simply a matter of the ethics, style, and choices made during the course of a climb - there was clearly much more going on then that. That could be an ethical debate all on its own, and arguing these issues like it was a normal FA in the face of the added goals, motivations, pressures (and camera rap lines) of a film project seems a bit pointless.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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k-man, while I would agree with you and admit that is prolly correct, is it right ?
Hundreds of climbers have enjoyed the shite out of a particular rap-bolted 5.8 face/slab climb of my doing, BUT
....those that have climbed my few ground-up trad 5.11's walked away with an experience similar to that of my own--challenge and gratification of the unknown.
Neither is right, both are justified, but maybe we should look at it this way:
Will DR, SJ (and others) look back on the route the way that JB (and others) look back at the B-Y route ? Prolly not, due to the style and circumstances--and it is for them to live with, we can only critique.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dingus wrote: Dawn Wall all over again. Same argument, nearly 4 decades later.
DMT
I wonder who going to play the part of Royal this time???
Joe, Fat, Bruce...???
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
|
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"We are confronted with insurmountable opportunities"
Or perhaps better...
"We have met the enemy and he is us."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
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Not me - I try not to mix business with pleasure...
--------------------------------------------------------
Note to ihateplastic: with regard to Werner and I getting all native sitting around listening to stones:
In the old days our people had no education. All their wisdom and knowledge came to them from dreams. They tested their dreams and in that way learned their own strength. - Ojibwa Elder.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
|
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Bd'A asked, "I wonder who going to play the part of Royal this time???"
Ah yes, and who will punch whom in the parking lot?
Is it really John's baby? Stay tuned for more of The Edge of Half Dome.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: In the old days our people had no education. All their wisdom and knowledge came to them from dreams. They tested their dreams and in that way learned their own strength. - Ojibwa Elder.
Geeh Joe....we now have the intartnet...where you been?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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And 36v lithium batteries. No doubt about it Bob - these days you can get both strength and the batteries to go with it over the internet.
(Bob, just doing my part to get us to 300 at this point...)
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WBraun
climber
|
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DMT -- "Dawn Wall all over again"
Most people here have never done an early ascent of the Dawn wall so they don't really know. Harding went berzerk up there, I think he lost it near the end.
He drilled rivets next to perfect A1 cracks, I was nailing along when suddenly I see rivets right next to the A1 placements I was standing on.
Porter had previously after Royals ascent chopped a few of them also but still many rivets survived because they were almost invisible to see.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
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Fat wrote: Crowbar, tuning fork, hammer, anything else?
Jody's evil twin.
Diet, start working out and stop drinking beer. Good place to start.
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lost.hairrow
Social climber
Ojai,CA
|
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Question: Is it ok to rap bolt now?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
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You bet, go for it.
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lost.hairrow
Social climber
Ojai,CA
|
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Ok. So if I first aid a route ground up, can I then rap and place more bolts to make it a safe route?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
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Yep.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
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So Werner, I don't remember enough details of the Dawn Wall story to know if any of it involved rapping, but seems to me not much of it did.
Some of the attitude here seems to be that even those rivit placements next to A1 cracks are better than something placed on rap, solely because they were placed ground up.
And on a separate note, this business about a film does bother me. In some ways, this makes it more like Dean's climb of Delicate Arch. I'd have been OK with that if Dean had done it with less publicity, and I guess I'd have better feelings about this if it was clear that Doug and Sean's goal was simply to find the best route up a beautiful piece of stone.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
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This debate is such a good one because I think a lot of folks hold the same ethics
as I; ground-up is the way it goes.
To answer my own question, do I climb and enjoy routes put up in less than perfect
style? Hell yes I do!! However, the style of the FA is always in the back of my mind.
It *does* make a difference.
Certainly Growing Up was not a step forward in style. It was an attempt however.
I know what Sean did before he broke out the ropes at the top. And he didn't rap
in before he climbed to the top of the arch, from the ground (and attempt a couple
of other lines on the face too boot).
[Ed. In other words, they did not start by going to the top.]
That said, would the route be as good if they forged ahead without the shenanigans?
Is there a point where the quality of a route trumps style?
Will others not climb Growing Up simply because the top half was previewed, then
rap-bolted? My bet is very few with the ability will bypass the route simply
because it was not put up in the best style. The line is about as good as it gets.
I know that it would be at the top of my list, had I the guns. Right after
Warbler's Basket Dome route.
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lost.hairrow
Social climber
Ojai,CA
|
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Ok im just trying to clear something up here and im kinda slow. Is film or photo coverage a exception to the rule. Rap bolting is ok if you are a certin distance from cameras?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
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Let's just say that a film crew significantly widens the distribution of spray pattern.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
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This is a really dynamic thread with a few static lines thrown in for the heavy lifting. Threads like these are what make SuperTopo so valuable and interesting. And addictive dammit!
Tarbuster you so eloquently presented the poinancy of "Trad" climbing that I was left with nothing else to say. Thanks!
Healje you perfectly and clearly summed up the issues regarding style, ethics and presidence. Well done!
And Doug I want to tell you I also appreciate your posting up.
It is always good to get first hand info.
Only time will tell how this new route and it's creators will be perceived and regarded in the greater climbing world.
It may prove to be a lasting "classic" climb that future enthsiasts aspire to for generations. Or it may be yet another accepted "ego blight" like the Jardine Traverse or the Compressor Route. There are numerous examples of currently accepted and sought after climbs that were established in any number of unacceptable manners. Is pre-inspection and rap bolting off the South Face of Half Dome really any different than rapping to pre-inspect and pre-place gear in the Black Canyon? If it is please tell me why. Prehaps the reduction of adventure, discovery and risk that a top down approach entails will be outweighed by the increased preservation of a limited resource that a carefully "planned" route could, if done well, present. We have nearly enough examples of routes beaten into free climbable submission already. It is also inevitable that people will continue to seek out and develope new terrain. Some of those routes, as in every previous generation, will only rarely be repeated and only by the elite of the day. Others will be within reach of a much wider field of enthusiasts. Some of each kind will fade into obscurity either because they are utter choss or a death route while others will become hallowed classics regardless of the FA style. Climbing is funny that way.
Werner, any chance that Harding was placing all those rivets next to A1 cracks because he had an epiphany and was just trying to save it for the future? lol
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
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He just didn't want those beautiful cracks bespoiled!
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ec
climber
ca
|
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This style of first ascent allows for the 'manufacturing' of a route. Virtually anything is possible with this state of mind. The thought that, "I'm going to put up a route on that." becomes very conclusive doesn't it?
"Growing Up" looks like an awesome line, no doubt. The route will stand the test of time as other contreversial routes. I have tremendous respect for Doug, however, I am saddened by his decision. It just seemed like "Climbing Half Dome the Wrong Way."
Sorry. Some of us would still rather not know what the fvck is coming-up on the next pitch. 'A friend of mine once said comparing FA styles, "When you do an FA of your own rap bolted route, it's like doing someone else's route."
ec
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
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Survival wrote: He just didn't want those beautiful cracks bespoiled!
Looking back in retrospect and the state of some cracks on El Cap...you might be right.
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lost.hairrow
Social climber
Ojai,CA
|
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I wonder if all bolted routes were put up in the same style as th B.Y. if climbing whould still be legal especially in national parks. What a great thing that whould be. Talk about something fun to watch, illegal ascents most resulting in alot of blood. All right im switching to decaf.
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ec
climber
ca
|
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• Quality of the Experience!
Are you experienced?
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
|
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Fatty, your repetitive posting of that phrase is pedantic at best. It reminds me of your take on international diplomacy "nuke em' all", and begs the question, were you not loved as a child?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
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LOL. If it is the "quality of the experience" then there are only two who could rate it.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
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Chop the Compressor Route.
Wait on death sentencing this route until further first hand assessments are available.
Something tells me this thread will go over 400.
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ec
climber
ca
|
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TIG, You got that exactly right!
Our opinions don't really matter...What's done is done.
ec
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Last time I checked, someone was very near to chopping the compressor route before people made a HUGE deal about that possibility.
I'm not necessarily pro or con chopping "Growing Up", but since we're gambling a lot already:
If no one chops this route before it sees twelve ascents, I bet 50 postcards it won't get chopped at all, a la popularity. People will flip over a chop.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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"When you do an FA of your own rap bolted route, it's like doing someone else's route."
I always held that if you rap-bolted a line, you could not be on the FA team.
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ec
climber
ca
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"I always held that if you rap-bolted a line, you could not be on the FA team. - k-man
I guess in the guidebook there will have to be a list of 'contributing manufacturers.'
ec
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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'contributing manufacturers.'
naw.... I think the correct terminology would be "route equipped by:"
Which is the terminology I/we use when establishing new sport lines in various places. Said sport lines are rapped in and IMHO is the only sane way of equipping the routes. Chossy sandstone that cleans up nicely (once the effort is put in) isn't waiting for someone bold enough to do it ground up. To do it ground up would simply be a rather silly idea.
300th?!?!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Heck with all this ancient ground up stuff. Talk about thinking outside the box, I'm going up there to rap down and just put up a few pitches near the top. You know, well scoped, not too hard or scarey, well protected routes that are within range of a lot of folks. Kind of a community service you might say....
Rap bolting is cool, who says they have to start at the bottom? I'm the FA guy, I get to be the judge.
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adventurewagen
Trad climber
Seattle
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After reading the entire thread I'll keep it simple.
I'd love to get on the route, at least the first half but seeing as there was never and will never be an FA for the second half it looses alot of it's appeal for me. To say that I climbed Karma, Autobahn, Southern Belle, etc would have true meaning since I'd be repeating an amazing feat first and more impressively done by the FA. Climbing "Growing Up" is just a tick. No style points, no amazing feat, just training and cranking through the manufactured pre-protected route.
Not to say the route won't get done but it is nothing more than a "tick" at this point for anyone. It will never be an "ascent" for me or anyone that climbs it. Maybe the first half but never the second. The only interest it holds would be in those first 10 pitches at which point I think I'd rap because repeating the second half just holds no interest and would practically dirty the clean send you could go for on the true part of the climb.
On another note I consider myself to live in a world already "climbed out". Most every beautiful line within my ability has already been climbed so I'm one of he many climbers (a whole generation and future generations) left to sloppy seconds and for me the FA team plays a big part in the route, especially for places like the valley. If people take the true gems and rap bolt them for us then we lose yet another route that could have had more character than your average crag climb.
I dream of climbing Southern Belle though I never will, but I just can't see wasting my time on "Growing Up". I could see getting on the route and plugging it up to where the crack dies but there isn't anything pushing me to the top other than getting that "tick". So for me this whole debacle boils down to whether it's another tick for my list or an actual ascent for my personal history books.
Since I can't get the FA on the climb the best I can do is repeat the route the same way the FA party did it and then oooh and aaah over their marvelous route. Making it through run outs or over odd terrain are part of the game. I guess it's time to go rap in and check the route out. Then climb it or whatever...
Rap bolting in my mind should be left to all the crap rock you find at your local crag, which is merely training grounds for where the real stuff happens.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Tradisgood,
My vote is for the quality of the person. However, the quality of one's route can make a strong statement about the quality of the person as this thread clearly demonstrates. Carry on !!
Cracko
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lost.hairrow
Social climber
Ojai,CA
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Question: Is it OK to rap down a blank face and using a saw manufacture a hand crack if you then lead it clean/ground up?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Good points TIG. I'm not sure that the style of the FA should somehow make all other ascents invalid. There are certainly climbs put up in the 60's that I could do in better style, without damaging the rock. But that doesn't mean I disrespect those ascents, or that I would enjoy those climbs any less.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Modesto
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For me this thread is getting tired. I think folks have stated and restated their position. I for one am on the side of rap bolting half dome is not high on my integrity list, however I also understand it is just a sport, we all do it for fun and life certainly has other curves balls that will be far more important than this issue.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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"... I bet 50 postcards...
Cool! I started a new form of currency!
S.C.R.E.E.E.C.H.I.NG. halt!!!!!!!!!.. Adventurewagen considers himself living ,"... in a world already "climbed out". " Holy Sh't! Not even close! The approaches may be longer but the number of cracks, slabs, ridges, etc. left in the Sierra, Baffin, Norway, Patagonia, northern Africa. etc. will keep the next ten generations of climbers posting up new trip reports.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"On another note I consider myself to live in a world already "climbed out". Most every beautiful line within my ability has already been climbed so I'm one of he many climbers (a whole generation and future generations) left to sloppy seconds and for me the FA team plays a big part in the route, especially for places like the valley. If people take the true gems and rap bolt them for us then we lose yet another route that could have had more character than your average crag climb. "
You're in luck because the vast majority of Long Yosemite face routes were put in the traditional way.
And you're also in luck because it's very rare for any of them to get climbed. No line for you.
So it shouldn't be a problem to give this climb a miss. In fact, you should make a moral point of it.
After all, If lesser climbers are denied, by lack of boldness, all the R and X rated lines put up by the hardmen of the past., then:
Those who disapprove of rap-bolted, pre-inspected, or sieged lines should stay off them-to do otherwise is like being one of those politicians that legislates against prostitution in the daytime and bangs whores at night.
Avoid Snake Dike to begin with. It was retrobolted.
If you think "OK, I just won't clip the retro-bolts on Snake Dike, then the same option is there for you on "Growing Up"
Or just climb to the top of the Arch, A0 the bolt ladder, and free solo to the top by your own route, cause that's basically the alternative if you can't stance drill nor hook drill.
Did Doug and Shawn get less adventure because they rap bolted? Yeah! Why did they do so? Two possibilities..
1. To selfishly establish their creds with a route to the top of Half Dome.
or
2. To create a route that future climbers of that grade could enjoy.,
Since I'm mostly a route-repeating kind of guy. I appreciate #2 and think there's a place for it.
Cause after all. The guys who put up the Death Routes on Half Dome...Why did they do so? Two possibilities..
1. To have an awesome adventure with or without regard to those who follow.
2. To make a name for themselves and get respect and honor.
Is it so different?
I remember when Crest Jewel went up. (in good style I think) It was still criticized for having too many bolts. Such a fine route and one of the few faces still climbed in Yosemite of that length.
Times and opinions change. If you're one of those who used to condemn hang-dogging and now you do it all the time, maybe it's time to be quiet about your next moral judgement about others.
The second half of "Growning Up" exists in only two forms. As a death route, as a rap bolted route, or not at all. For those who lionize putting it up as a death route by somebody capable of running it out from stance to stance, I ask one question:
If I go to the Elementary School and kick the ass of all the toughest 6th graders, does that make me a brave hero?
I think there's something to be said for public service on public lands that future generations can enjoy.
Peace
Karl
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Cracko, think about this highly contrived scenario:
Reinhold Messner decides to rap bolt a route on SFHD--having never placed a bolt before, the outcome is a disaster.
Mojede decides to rap bolt a route on SFHD--having placed many bolts this way before, the outcome is a success.
Just saying that there is a fine line between the route and the climber, that's all.
edit: on the topic of quality herein.
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Owlman
Social climber
Montucky
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Choppy chop chop.
Or change the name to,
"Growing Down".
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Eddie
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Perhaps we could put a sign at the base of the route that says "Beware: Upper sections were Rap Bolted...Climb at Your Own Risk"
Then, we'll employ a NPS ranger to stand at the top, and make sure to point out to the tourists that the climbers topping out aren't REALLY hardcore, because the route they climbed was put up in 'bad' style.
Lastly, we'll make sure the guidebooks point it out as well, right next to the 5 Stars...
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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"Reinhold Messner decides to rap bolt a route on SFHD"
ok - that made me laugh ;-) i'm picturing him swearing profusely in german while hand drilling...
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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There is no movie. In fact, the movie was dead in the water long before the decision to carry fixed ropes up the cables. Too bad, because part of my dream was to film some of the decision-making that goes into a FA. That could have become interesting indeed. Might have even given us something a little more real to watch than the all-too-common sort of "sport filming" of ruthlessly wired moves set to a heavy metal soundtrack.
But even as the climbing got started back in March '07 my partner in the filming company was spinning off into his own personal purgatory. For me that became a huge distraction. "...wandering around down on the coast looking for a partner" is the way I put it in the article. It dragged my attention away from HD. End result of that fracas: not one second of useful footage was shot on the face. Too bad; but on the bright side I suppose I saved some of you from the moral dilemma of whether to watch such a tainted production.
BTW we did have a film permit, after posting the required million dollar insurance policy. Another expense gone to waste.
I did keep supporting the climbing with logistics, because I was excited about the climb and respected how Sean was doing it and because I had promised to. And I went deeper into debt. Where I still am. Financially it was a black hole and with tendonitis I couldn't even climb, but I carried up food and rope and some of the beer that we drank while hashing out how to proceed.
Lines were fixed for filming that never got used. All the way up the arch they were put up after the climb was led trad, ground up. Shawn Reeder, whose still photos I like, used them to shoot those modern angles above, to the side, and over the shoulder. For awhile 97 of them were on his blog, maybe still are. The only bolts on the whole arch section are the belay anchors. Because the arch leans left, fixed lines from a higher anchor hung out to the side and Shawn was able to shoot stills from them.
The arch turns into a roof going way left at its top, and coming back down along the route from there was not possible, so we fixed a rap route straight down. Like the bottom of the rap route off the Nose, it crosses some pretty blank rock, but you can get to the ground with two 160 foot ropes. And it connects with the line on the upper wall, so it's possible to retreat from up there in bad weather, which will avoid some of the epic close calls like Harding and Rowell and Middendorf had.
So our hard decision at the top of the arch to switch from trad to dropping a line from the top had nothing to do with film or with making money. Reeder sold a few shots from up there (and those give you a glimpse of the terrain and the texture) and I got less than minimum wage for writing about it. Sean's sponsors got some publicity, and his take didn't prevent him from -- right now -- working construction to feed his kids. No slide show, no groupies.
Now this next part is starting to feel ironic in light of the crap some of you want to dump on us: we did it for you. We did it for the future. We did it as an alternative to the death-route spiral the South Face had been in. We did it for choice. You can still choose Southern Belle, sack up and face the consequences. My big respect goes to you if you make that choice, as it goes to Coz and Schultz for putting it up. But now there's another possible choice. And this choice will likely get climbed more. I hope its a lot. That stellar terrain deserves to be felt.
Oddly, that leads to politics. See, I think more climbers on the South Face is a good a thing, just like more hikers on the cables is good. (Besides keeping Werner in work, I mean, since 25% of all the rescues in the park are on the Half Dome Trail.) All those people getting out there and breathing mountain air and getting the "glad tidings" as John Muir would say, they all add to the political constituency of wilderness. And wilderness needs all the help it can get.
Climbing can use a bit more political voice too. And I think that more climbers having more fun in the mountains is a good start. Somebody cratering off of Karma won't help our political stand as much as a thousand climbers Growing Up. This route will never do as much as the Snake Dike, but it's going to give more people a breathtaking experience in the mountains than Southern Belle ever will.
Enough. I hate it when anyone starts to sound preachy, expecially me.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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WELL SAID DOUG...
Domingo & Mtnyoung...now it's not hearsay!!!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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thanks for the reply Doug, it goes a long way to explaining the dynamics driving the choices that were made by the FA team. Style is a choice, and when we make that choice we are fully prepared to be judged by others in the community. But the adventure has been had by the FA and the excitement of the whole thing shared by the FA with the community. We get to go and repeat it, in small part, anytime we want, that is our choice.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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Thanks for posting Doug.
With the movie project out of the way prior to the bolting of the upper half, I'm firmly back on the side of admiring the route and those that established it.
Maybe there was some sponsorship pressure or media intentions still, but when they walked away they left what looks to be an amazing line. One that appeals greatly to me, and one that will likely be repeated far sooner and more often than its neighbors.
As I said prior in this thread, the manner in which the bolts were installed (rap or GU) means less to me than the fact that they are properly positioned in respect to the climbing. I also would be saddened if the protection consisted of body-length bolt spans, but that doesn't sound like it's the case either (30-foot runouts?).
Looking forward to a repeat ascent and the resulting feedback. This could be the type of route I'd like to go and climb...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Fatty wrote
"This route smacks of "gotta have a long FA on my resume", maybe this section of HD should never see an ascent. I'm voting for removal."
These guys have been around long enough to know they could have got better kudos from simply climbing the Arch free and calling it good. This was public service.
This kind of debate has been going on a long time in climbing and it's good for us. Perhaps it helps us grow as much as climbing itself to see how we think, how others think, and how we understand and misunderstand each other.
I'll agree to disagree Fatty. This November I'll also be voting for removal
peace
Karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Thanks again for posting Doug. I'm impressed that you stay pretty close to being pure information without getting wrapped around the axle.
I still don't agree with "Death route spiral" and number of repeats being the goal. Nor do I buy the idea that you and Sean did it for "us".
I thought the climbing community historically has always had great admiration for routes that took commitment and great bravery to establish. Few repeats was something that was admired and became part of the legend, something for the new generation of climbers to wonder whether they had the guts for.
Edit: Karl Baba wrote: "This November I'll also be voting for removal." (Speaking of politicians, not bolts)Now that I like a lot!!
Edit: Thank goodness the top isn't so accessible to rap off of in some places.
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adventurewagen
Trad climber
Seattle
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Ihateplastic - When I said everything was "climbed out" I didn't mean literally. Geez. Take a deep breath and move away from the keyboard.
My point was just that for many climbers today there aren't nearly as many gems left out there in the easy to access or obvious places. I know for a fact if I had the time I could hit up Patagonia and put up a few FA's there. My buddies just got back from a couple months of putting up new FA's. Right on Fitzroy even!
Obviously as the population grows and the weather changes we'll continue to expand further and further into nature until that once far off crag is a mere 10 minutes from down town. I'm just saying that unless you climb 5.hard or happen to live next to an untapped crag the number of easily accessible and obvious lines that are climbable by normal humans is lower than it was.
I'm just saying for an overwhelming percentage of the population we are left climbing in the footsteps of the grand dads that were lucky enough to be around during the birth of hard climbing and until I quit my job and move to some unknown crag or start climbing 5.14 I don't see an endless supply of FA's for me to choose my own style. I can only hope those people with the time and skill do the right thing.
So you wanna go tick that climb or not? I'll take pitch 1-10.
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Tez
Mountain climber
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Thanks for posting Doug. Climbing ground up until natural protection features ran out and then completing it by inspection from above is good form in my book.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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What about all those sick strong euros who show up every spring and freeclimb the big walls. Do they get to vote on this?
They'll probably just onsight it.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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DR said,
"Now this next part is starting to feel ironic in light of the crap some of you want to dump on us: we did it for you. We did it for the future. We did it as an alternative to the death-route spiral the South Face had been in. We did it for choice. You can still choose Southern Belle, sack up and face the consequences. My big respect goes to you if you make that choice, as it goes to Coz and Schultz for putting it up. But now there's another possible choice. And this choice will likely get climbed more. I hope its a lot. That stellar terrain deserves to be felt."
Thanks for posting. I remember using nearly this exact language to Mugs Stump about a route I rapp and drilled on a cliff he liked nearly 20 years ago. He called BS on my response and after 20 years I do think he is right.
In other words if you are climbing for anything or anyone other than yourself maybe it is the wrong reason? If you are placing a bolt for anyone other than yourself, should you?
Not throwing smack your way just a different viewpoint...I dont give a sh&& one way or the other about your route and the style it was done in. But I do question the validity of the argument as it could be used for all manner of "un-ethical" impacts to the rock.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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I remember using nearly this exact language to Mugs Stump about a route I rapp and drilled on a cliff he liked nearly 20 years ago. He called BS on my response and after 20 years I do think he is right.
You're not referring to Hellgate, by chance?
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/utah/wasatch_range/little_cottonwood_canyon/105739780
Geez, there's what, near 60 routes up there now? Great summertime hot weather venue, even though the rock ain't the greatest.
And, really, if you're placing a bolt considering climbers coming after you, why isn't that a valid reason, if that's what's important to you? I mean, the logic here being, if you're climbing for you, and leaving something for other's to enjoy is important to you, then...
I don't know. You could take this to the next level and just never report any of your ascents too. Then, every one gets an FA.
What it sometimes boils down to is style and ego, which seem intertwined at times.
Anyhoo, great to hear from you Gary. Maybe this summer, when its too hot to climb down low on the beloved granite of Little Cottonwood, we'll see you sniffin' around Hellgate, Alta, Devil's Castle...
-Brian in SLC
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Yeah Brian,
All in all, I hope the FA guys got out of it what they wanted. It sounds like they did.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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One last post from me as it has been a fine discussion for the most part and nothing much more for me to add...
Sean and Doug...sounds like a great route, thanks for thinking about future parties, thanks for the effort (over three months) of work that it took and Doug thanks for your honest and open posts on the route.
It not easy being a dartboard but that's what happens when you jump out of the circle and actually do something that goes against the grain.
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Gene
climber
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Now this next part is starting to feel ironic in light of the crap some of you want to dump on us: we did it for you. We did it for the future. We did it as an alternative to the death-route spiral the South Face had been in. We did it for choice. You can still choose Southern Belle, sack up and face the consequences. My big respect goes to you if you make that choice, as it goes to Coz and Schultz for putting it up. But now there's another possible choice. And this choice will likely get climbed more. I hope its a lot. That stellar terrain deserves to be felt.
The future has a funny habit of showing up real soon in the Valley. The history of climbing in the Valley is full of examples of the past generation's last greatest problem is this year's trade route. As far as the SFHD, why not keep the bar high?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Y'all try to remember that Doug and Sean are not two neophyte yeyhoos from a rock gym with a wild hair and dreams of glory.
They have been around, cut their chops and paid their dues. I am assuming but fairly sure they put as much if not more thought into this route than most FAs. If to some of you it represents a hard to accept seemingly hypocritical about face of ethics for Doug, well who of the long lived climbers hasn't changed or modified their approaches to ascent as they were "growing up"?
When I was young and a 'real' climber the ethos of the day were; onsight, ground up, all clean, no chalk, no fixed gear, no bolts, no hangs, no falls. Anything less was aid climbing. If I remember correctly that same ethos eshewed sticky rubber and cams when they came out. Well the ethos of today is far different than before.
Now not only do I have sticky sticky shoes and cams but I chalk when I don't need to, gladly clip bolts when they are there and hang to rest to avoid falling. My younger me would have disdaned the older me but I am still enjoying the experience.
Is that wrong or should I be burned at the stake as a heretic?
Prehaps I have no place in this discussion as I have never done a Half Dome Route. Though I have always wanted to! Or prehaps because I have only placed three bolts in my life. Two hand drilled on lead from natural stances on I Can't Believe it's a Girdle. And the third after rapping nearly 1000' down the Goss Logan to replace the blown crux bolt. Something about the thought of smashing into the dihedral after the 5.11 traverse had me alter my ethical high ground for the sake of doing the job right. And yes the understanding that scores and scores of others would pass that way after me played a big role in the decision. But who out there would or wouldn't climb either of those routes based solely on the ethics of previous ascents?
Enthusiasts are still coveting routes like the Hallucinogen even though it has been subdued by post FA fixed gear. Should that route be retro chopped to it's original FA conditions so that others may enjoy the terror? Or are the routes themselves expressions of the evolving nature and ethos of climbing as a whole? Taking over a month to establish now the Hallucinogen has been climbed in under eight hours and nearly freed except for some revolutionary mixed climbing. Due in no small part to the current festooning of retro bolts and fixed gear. What are we to make of these shifts to our paradigm.
Now that I have been outed as a hang doggin', chalk swillin', retro rap boltin' hypocrit I ask only that you wait to see what a few on sight ascents have to report about this new route before you grab the pitch forks and light the torches.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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400 easy!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I believe that the purest form of climbing is a ground up first ascent, placing all equipment en route, and minimizing impacts on the natural environment of the cliff i.e. cleaning, bolts. Also generally minimizing impacts on the human and natural environments, being completely honest with ourselves and others about what we've done, and remembering how fortunate we are to engage in our antics. These are ideals we should all aspire to, that are consistent with the traditions of our community, and the centrality of risk and adventure to what we do.
I am interested in the larger picture - I mentioned way upthread the way in which others might see the route, how it was established, and our debate about it. Doug brought up some other wide perspective issues - though if we do get lots more people hiking up Half Dome and getting the glad tidings, it not only makes work for Werner, it may lead to more idiots throwing rocks off...
When the thread got to 327 posts, I quickly looked at all of them. 216 posts were by males - that is, people I'm sure are males. Known quantities. 108 posts I wasn't sure about. I don't have the time to check, but I'm reasonably sure that most of them are males. (Not sure about BURT BRONSON, though.) One post was identifiably by a female. Perhaps a few of the pen names that I'm not sure about are also females, but clearly a tiny minority of the posters are female.
All of which suggests some interesting things about adolescent male sociology. I'd guess the climbing community is now perhaps 2/3 male, 1/3 female. SuperTopia may be a bit more skewed towards males - perhaps 75:25. Given all this, it's ironic that the route name is Growing Up.
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Chewbongka
climber
लघिमा
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MIGHTY HIKER IS ON TO US!!!
EVERBODY SCATTER!!!
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Thank you Doug and Sean Disney.
Now can you go back up and drill holes for rebar and concrete ledges with beer cozies? Can you cut a better path to the base and put in a barbecue for when we get there? Then could you cut-out 8x11x1 spaces at each belay for inset and sealed, weather-proof, lexan-covered route history/topo pages at each belay?
Maybe others have even better suggestions for improvements to make the route more user-friendly. Hey, come to think of it, if you were doing it for us, why didn't you get suggestions and take a poll and run it through a commitee and take a vote before you made this route for us?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Doug... "...we did it for you. We did it for the future."
I have no words to express my gratitude.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Perhaps the most amusing posts in this thread have been the shrill cries about chopping it. Fattrad doesn't look like he could even waddle to the base, much less do any of the actual climbing involved to get up there.
So choppers, gonna chop on the lead? Or are you gonna have to rap in to do the deed?
Is that any different?
Chopping a route on rap, all about the ego boost, none of the challenge of actually climbing a route.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Just checked out the web site WB posted.
Cool pics, looks like they had a grand time up there.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Hopefully the days of bolt chopping are past. The deed is done. While whatever sort of ego or monetary factors may drive a first ascent using tacticts that the closed minded boltophobic traditionalists may abhor may be questioned and discussed, everyone looses in a chopping spree. Kinda like moving from the discussion that terrorists are bad to invading a sovereign nation.
If the point of view that traditional ground up FA's is the best style we can utilize is valid, then it will stand on it's own merrits. If the crowbars come out in the dark of night, then the traditional stance is tainted and painted as stance of grumpy old men who aren't what they used to be or never were as well as the wanna be's trying to emulate them.
I think a better name for the route would have been, I've fallen and I can't get up.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Well, if they had climbed Sea of Dreams a month earlier I would say keep the route. As of now its just a thousand bolts to horse chute. Gimme some TP i'll deposit my opinions for ya!
oh wait, wrong thread.
Carry on.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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JHedge wrote
"Didn't Dave and Walt aid their way up SB first, thus depriving others from establishing a ground-up free route? Shouldn't they also have stopped when the going got too tough, like Sean should have? And didn't Dave go back and replace the bolts on SB on rappel? Seems to me that aiding up something, then freeing it, then going back and rap bolting it, hardly sets an ethical example that Sean's route should have to live up to. "
Nobody clarified that? Anybody know the history.
Klaus wrote
"and Karl, Jesus Built My Hotrod has suffered More damage from the attempt to free it by bolts added to sections where I ran it out on hooks. I can argue that I climbed it with the least amount of damage by Not drilling as much as a free-climber would consider sufficient. Also if that hook pitch is in fact 5.10 as Jim said, why do they even need bolts if they're such great climbers? to create a "trade route" for the masses? I don't know, but bolting an established route to free it is simply poor style"
Everybody knows Klaus climbs in the finest style that Aid offers. Some here seem to suggest that routes should be left untouched until they can be climbed in the finest style. I'm guessing these same folks would suggest that free is better style than aid, so I'm asking them if potentially free routes shouldn't see FAs on aid, particularly if there's hammering to be done.
Clint wrote: Karl's point here is that if you go ground up, there are probably not enough stances on that upper slab and it will be runout as a result. And runout is bad because the route will not get much traffic (I am somewhat sympathetic to that last part). But the route could be done Urioste style with bolt ladders and then pulling/patching if there are not enough stances. This yields a safe, ground up route. So ground up does not necessarily imply unsafe, and does not imply very low traffic (although unsafe does imply low traffic). Karl may have just overlooked this option, if he was thinking about Southern Belle (vs. say the Harding-Rowell route).
I think it's unimaginable to expect the FA party to hand-drill hundreds of feet of bolt ladders, just to erase them latter. All to lay claim to somebody else's moralistic ideas the adventure of ground up. Seems like you'd get a pretty good preview of the freeclimbing while drilling the ladders and they would provide even greater protection than the eventual few bolts that remained after chopping and patching. Really Clint, that's a stretch.
Now I'll admit that better style would have been to run-out the pitches on lead completely 160 feet on hard 10 to potential 11+, and then, if you believe in public service, rap down what's already ascended and equip the route.
but I'm not ready to tell anyone that that's what I expect from them
Peace
Karl
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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WandaFuca:
Thank you for your call.
Your suggestions for improving YosemiteLand
are important to us.
Please stay on the line.
The next available Matterhorn climber
will take your call.
....
....
....
I'm sorry,
the Matterhorn climbers
are still on their Lettuce break.
(Gotta hire real climbers...
Whadda ya gonna do?)
So Tinkerbell will take your suggestions.
You may not recognize her from your youth,
Cuz now she's a Big Dyke...
Have a Special Day
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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I love the debate around how the style of an FA effects ethics. It's one of the few really grey areas to me.
1. Should a climb be left alone for those who can do it in a better style? And what level of improvement of style justifies/demands leaving it alone. No fixed ropes? No rap bolting? No bolts? Free vs. aid? By a faster party or one that requires less holes? Shoeless/chalkless/onsight/free solo ;-)
2. If a climb can be done better by rap bolting (better bolt placements, no uneeded holes drilled, better line) does that overway the concerns of doing the FA in a better style?
3. If a climb hits a blank area should it end?
4. How many bolts are justified to connect natural placements in a 'trad' climb?
5. Is sport climbing either?
6. If a block is forced loose by a passing FA climber and it later falls when no one is around a does it make a sound?
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Strongerdog
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Doug, when you start your first reply with "I am not ashamed" it really does get one thinking.....?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Someone upthread had suggested I should hang my head in shame, so it seemed like a direct line to start out on.
Is that what you referred to?
I'm still proud of the route. If it could have happened ground-up all the way of course that would be cleaner and I would be more proud. But that's not what the stone was saying to us as we pulled out from under the arch. We were pretty sure that something would be climbable up there because routes like Southern Belle and Autobahn and Cataclysmic Megasheer had all gone free on the upper wall.
We were also pretty sure that we didn't want to leave behind another death route. Enough of those on the wall already, and only getting worse. So it felt like an act of humility to go around and come in from above. Like we were sacrificing something of our personal FA experience for the sake of leaving behind the kind of route we wanted it to be. Something more accessible than everything on the wall so far had been.
I think that's part of this equation that some of you aren't quite seeing yet: That we gave up our personal FA experience, traded it away -- especially Sean, who wanted his first steps ever onto the summit of the Dome to be the culmination of this route -- to create this as a different experience for the future than anything yet done on the South Face.
A little pride, a little humility, trying for balance.
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couchmaster
climber
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hard to say........
It seems like the Valley always had a real strong sense of what correct style was. The changes that are coming form the gyms has pretty much put style, ethics and the enviroment back behind performance and safety.
It seem like it will be a short step to wankers like moi rap bolting a new 5.6 next to arches, and then seeing others add bolts to existing routes to increase the safety of them....you know, they will do it for the others.
Kind of sad to see this change, guess I'm agreeing with Werner, Cos and JB.
Where is the end if that is the overriding concern...ie, to make a route safe for others? That is, to make "Something more accessible" Was that ever a concern on earlier great routes like NA Wall, Salethe etc, ever ?
Based on that ideology, it will not end until the outdoors is as safe as a gymnasium. The change is coming one chink in the armor at a time. This is but one more chink. Different areas have different ethics and styles based on history, the valley has always has this strong sense of value on limiting ourselves to maintain a high standard of adventure....
I can understand rap bolting a little shithole 70' high local cliff, I mean, you have to rap down and roll 2 2,000 lb loose blocks off or die trying it ground up. So you've previewed it at that point ....but this is the valley.
Or it was anyway.
".... the end result will be routes many people can enjoy in a safe....."[i/] Like the red route in the gym, we told them that they needed to add another bolt to it, and another hold cause it was pretty sketch trying to send it being 5.10+ and most of us 5.10- climbers trying it, once that did that we got the send...
Like that.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Klaus wrote: As I said earlier, I'm sure it's a good route, I just cringe upon this tactic to create it. They set a NEW standard for Big Wall Freeclimbing that in my opinion is a step backward. Yet as others have said "it is now done, deal with it". I feel this precedent encourages the acceleration of "progress" to "develope" the potential of this wall by a simple means. It's sad.
Sorry...I said I was done...I'm not.
Big walls in the Black Canyon and Diamond (some as early as the late 70's) had top down inspection and pre-placed gear so your wrong on that point.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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NW face of Devil's Thumb
Wings of Steel
South Face of Half Dome--Growing Up
What a tick list--man, I've got some fun to be had.
Wish I were capable of the lofty ambitions of others.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"It seems like the Valley always had a real strong sense of what correct style was."
Have to disagree there. In the 28 years I've been around, ethical debates have constantly raged and the idea of correct style has shifted.
Clean climbing, fixed ropes, cam, sticky rubber, hand-dogging, previewing, rap-bolting, every other kinda bolting, copperheads, hole counts, retrobolting, constructive pin-scaring, tape, topos versus descriptions, competition, route-stealing, you name it.
Name almost any climber and there's usually something controversial they did.
Name almost any standard setting route and it could often be construed by go against one of the ethical principles somebody or another on this thread has suggested.
as for "top down" big wall freeclimbing. There's been loads and loads of it on the Captain as hardmen rap in to work the moves. It's just been for first free ascents rather than first ascents.
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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This is where the notion of 'community service' - even well-intended - starts to become both a minefield and a slippery slope. Such 'service' unavoidably entails subjective judgments. And those judgments of 'death routes', bolt spacing, and 'quality' of the bolted legacy left behind are just that - unavoidably and problematically subjective.
Growing Up is a reasonable endeavor to you guys, and maybe even to the majority of us irrespective of the ethos involved, but what about younger, gym-raised, 'safe' climbers who still considers it a far from safe by their standards? The risk would seem to be one of throwing SFHD open to any and all 'means' so long as the end result or 'legacy' meets their or their constituencies' criteria - which may be very different than your or ours.
And such subjective notions don't necessarily stop just at rock climbing routes either - via ferratas have now breached our shores on private lands and won't need much of momentum or time before some clever concessionaire sees the same financial potential in them and pushes for them on public lands. Commercializing previously free via ferratas is an unpopular yet growing trend in the EU right now. While the ADA was mentioned as a joke up thread - the prospect is actually fairly real - a US-affiliate of viaferrata.org could easily use the precedent of the Cable route and the power of the ADA to make a play for opening up public lands to via ferratas using exactly the same 'community service' rationale as is being presented here.
It's a Valley-sized leap from Growing Up to the Cable route or a via ferrata, but the same arguments and rationale are expressed for each and the ultimate question Couchmaster, Klaus, and others are basically asking is where does it stop? Once that door is open, who's criteria for these subjective notions should rule?
Edit: and these issues aren't constrained to the Valley, we are actively dealing with them up here as do most areas these days.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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I'm winding down, but I do wonder if we can now establish routes and claim we are doing it for the future would it be wrong to establish a bottom to top bolt ladder on something significant so future climbers can learn how to use aiders and haul and bivi and poop into a bucket?
Wit that, I think I am now out.
Thanks for the fun!
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Strongerdog
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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"I'm still proud of the route. If it could have happened ground-up all the way of course that would be cleaner and I would be more proud".
I think we all agree with you.
Doug, I have followed your adventures for many years and believe you are one of the good guys. It will be interesting to see how opinions play out over the next few years as your route gets done and reported on.
All the best,
Steve
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Ihate wrote: Wit that, I think I am now out.
Thanks for the fun!
Some people were never in it...just spewing.
Dingus...and Mother...I want to...
"It seems like the Valley always had a real strong sense of what correct style was."
That's funny...
Correct style...now tell me what religion is correct!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Gotta say Bob, I have no problem with people pointing out the lapses, paradoxes, and exceptions that went on in the 70's around the country - I do have a problem when those exceptions are presented as the rule to paint an all-to-common-and-convenient revisionist history of a 70's that wasn't dominated by a clean climbing movement.
That somehow we lept straight from pins to bolts with barely a breath in between and that none of us commonly held to a clean style or ethics in any consistent way. I hear that revisionist spew trotted out again and again - usually just alluded to, or said under one's breath, hoping no one will notice it attempting to parade as 'fact'.
I suspect I'm not alone here in feeling less than unapologetic for bristling a bit at the suggestion which is clearly Rovian in it's scope and intent.
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Mtnyoung wrote: "And, BTW, what's wrong with a climber's discussion containing lots of bullshtt? Isn't that a hallowed tradition?"
I'll grant that it's tradition, although I'm not sure how hallowed it is or should be. But, where I was coming from was the sense that this discussion is putting more than a few of our opinions on the line. In historical terms, accusations of this kind of magnitude have resulted in the ruin of climber's reputations and (some might argue) careers. When those are the potential stakes, I think it's wise to have a serious discussion driven by personal experience, careful thought, and respectable (even if critical) word choice.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Gee, b'ob, I checked every definition I could find and "spew" does not fit anything that I opined. And I know for a fact that I want to have nothing to do with Elfish Welfare! (But that Hermione is hot!)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: That somehow we lept straight from pins to bolts with barely a breath in between and that none of us commonly held to a clean style or ethics in any consistent way. I hear that revisionist spew trotted out again and again - usually just alluded to, or said under one's breath, hoping no one will notice it attempting to parade as 'fact'.
Joe...that funny too...you are preaching to the choir. I started climbing in 1971...and led my first 5.12 on gear in 1978. I was there and know what happened.
Doug has done more for the clean climbing movement than you, me and many others on this thread put together. He did nothing wrong on this route. He is a mature climber with over 40 years of climbing under belt and wisdom to go along with it.
Not one person who is against the route has even been on...they are casting stones blindly. F*#king sad when you really think about.
As to you and rest of the crew...climb anyway you want... but if you are going to pass judgement...at least get off your ass, climb the route or do better...there is still a lot of open stone on than face.
As to people in the 70's, 80's and 90's...the ones who got the most sh#t were the ones willing to put themselves out there...to do something different and not worry what other thought or said...it call being different and creative. God f*#king forbid if everyone climb just like you... the sport would have shrivel up and died a long time ago....how boring!
You want to climb just trad-routes and feel good about putting cute little nuts in cute little crack feel free too..just don't expect the rest of the climbing world to follow suit!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Doug,
you did the route for me? Thanks, but I didn't want it put up in that style. Since you did the route for me, can you please go and remove the rap-placed bolts since that is what I want?
Bruce
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ec
climber
ca
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DMT, your killing me! ROTFLOL...
ec
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WBraun
climber
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Bob D'
I think you missed Klaus's point totally. Please don't reply to me but to klaus if you do.
Next my blanket question to no one in partcular. Just a devils advocate type question.
What if some guy goes up there and chops the upper bolts and said I did it for you?
:-)
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Bruce,
I didn't say the style was for you,
just the route.
The style is all mine;
I get the karma.
Doug
And Sean: I want to be sure to include him here
but not presume to speak for him.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Similar to the collapse of windsurfing in the early 90's - I'd have no problem whatsoever if the 80-85% of 'climbers' today who are risk-averse and wholly bolt-dependent disappeared from the scene tomorrow. Actually, could we schedule that for around 9:30am tomorrow so I'd have a chance to grab breakfast before heading out?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Klaus...I don't remember seeing Yosemite in the post and highlighted.
So if something is never been done before and then someone does it....does it make it wrong!!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Speaking as an old Smith Rocks guy (mid-70's), once Alan "opened" the door, there was an explosion of rap bolted routes, fixed lines, people dangling for days and weeks on end working out the moves to their latest gymnastic problem, and more giant bolt hangers and pounds of chalk visible than all the pin scars of the previous era. It is not an improvement.
We don't need to wait for anyone to show up and "do better" now on SFHD, all we need to do is sit back and wait a few years for all of the people who can do the same, rap in and build their route. The question isn't even so much, was it ok this once, but is that the future of the SFHD? I wonder what Doug and Sean will think in years to come when they see similar things done up there with their torch that aren't so planned, considered, or established by experienced guys that have "been around".
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe...your elitism is almost beyond belief...I imagine you set wind surfing standards too.
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James
climber
a porch in Chinese Camp
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Virtual fisticuffs! Awesome!
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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It's all the same thing, no new tale to tell...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Thanks, Bob! Nope, didn't set any standards, but the sailing sites in the Gorge on big days are pretty quiet compared to the late 80's boom - and hey, that just plain works for me.
Personally, I think it's a bit of a bummer we won't see a similar collapse in climbing so long as gyms act as commercial engines continuously cranking out a steady product. And 25 years later, the 'inconvenient truth' is the vast majority of those climbers expect, if not demand, [willing and selfless] 'developers' provide them with an relentless stream of novel outdoor emulations of their indoor climbing experience.
These folks now constitute the large majority of climbers, are risk-averse, and it's really not all that outlandish to suggest at the rate drills are going these days that SFHD, the Valley, and many other classic crags might end up under the gun at a much different standard of 'safety' some day sooner than later. As Dingus said, "I'm here to kill you" - pardon me if I don't lay down quietly for the big event.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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I’m not meaning this as an affront to specific individuals. But isn’t this entire debate motivated more by competitive ethos, submerged rivalry and pride rather than conservation ethics or behavior systems and guiding philosophies of singular moral importance to the climbing community?
Bolts are placed on rappel---do they deface the rock more than bolts placed on lead?
Yes, “ground up” will likely provoke a greater sense of adventure in the first ascent team and demand a more challenging construction of route. But what is that to those who follow? Will second and third ascent parties experience a tangible dearth of adventure or is that just an illusion conceived in prior knowledge? Will those parties strive toward their goal with any less conviction?
If 99% of the climbing community should agree that on any large wall, bolts should not be placed on rappel, what sentiment and culpability will be reserved for “offenders” who feel they must resort to the tactic to finish a big route? Will the issue merely regenerate the predictable, age-old , free will vs. social constraints debate? Or will we sling moral indignity at them, assign them Ahab status; ignoring the Rachel captain’s pleas for help, and sailing on in search of that big, nasty whale.
We who are infected with pride commonly display indifference or contempt toward those who are in pain, confusion or need. That lack of compassion can extend to fellow climbers who feel they must digress from common practice to finish their ascent. (And pride is based in rivalry and competitiveness, not confidence or high minded moral principles.)
I’d suggest that rivalry, unfriendliness and ill will “pollute” the climbing environment more than bolts, litter or blaring music.
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Peter
climber
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When I repeat someone else's climb I don't give a hoot how the bolts got on there, as long as there are enough of them to protect my neck. Guess I'll never be a hero - like I care. If Doug and Sean claimed to have done the route ground-up they'd be liars - but they're not. If they had done the route ground-up and placed no pro then I'd shrug and figure another couple of elitist heroes, creating a route they claim to own on rock that doesn't belong to them, that no one else will ever get to climb.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"When I repeat someone else's climb I don't give a hoot how the bolts got on there, as long as there are enough of them to protect my neck."
Yeah, pretty much exactly my point...
Done here I think, night all - it's been one of the more interesting threads in awhile...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe...I ain't buying your grim reaper tales and predictions. The new breed is doing pretty good, Tommy Caldwell, Beth Rodden, Chris Sharma, the Hubers Brothers and host of others who have been seen in the gym and clipping bolts on occasion can and are finding their way.
In fact they are seriously kicking some ass.
Hats off to new breed...they are keeping the dream alive. You saw the future a long time ago and it just scare you.
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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Hello super thread topo people or whatever. I just wanted to toss in a little support for Sean. I am Sean's step brother and have climbed with him since 1987. Sean is someone who puts allot of thought into everything he dose. I think that if rap bolting the top of GROWING UP was the decision Sean made it was a good one. I'm glad that a super proud 1000' bolt ladder is not in place above that great arch. What was done up there just has to be better than pecking around with rivets or something and trying to find the way up. I think that if just a few of you climb the route you will see.
B
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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i've gone around on this a couple of times-
here's where i'm at today (not that it matters to anyone but me)
not really sure i will end up with these exact feelings, FWIW.
if they'd climbed those arches banging in pins the whole way, that'd be ok, the FA's perogative, right? (but of course they didn't). still, they could have done, on aid, whatever the hell they wanted, because their are no limits to what aid guys can do to get where they are going, they just get to do whatever they want, whether or not the terrain they are on can be climbed w/out aid tactics. but to put up a free route, they were bound to an aid climber's ethic, even though that aid climber's ethic would have allowed them to hammer and scar where they didn't (need to) do so.
then, if they'd drilled endless holes on lead to aid up the slab, that'd be ok?
clint suggested that they could have drilled just to patch?
seriously? that's ridiculous.
i would have picked rapping in over drilling up.
which way would the stone have voted?
would we sacrafice the stone for our sense of adventure?
to drill scores of holes for a single passage?
WTF, why?
maybe if they were out to put up an aid route, but who would ever go aid it?
(WoS PoS Jr., just 5 miles uphill of an aproach, and probably the 8th or 9th coolest aid route on the formation at best, so have at it kids!)
what's more, if they'd dirlled up and aided it, everyone would freak out if it were subsequently set up as a free climb (aka retro-bolted).
so instead of establishing an aid climb, they established a free climb.
now i'm not the expert some of the ST crowd seems to be on the history in these parts, can someone give an example of a long, steep, somewhat featureless slab that was drilled all the way up and aided on FA so it could be immediately set up as a bolted free cllimb?
i do find the ethics of the old dads inspiring, but i don't see a huge distinction between drilling on rappel and drilling on hooks. what the heck is so proud about aiding a slab w/ a drill? seriously. BFD. as i read it, shitty pro is often used in such circumstances to manufacture some spiciness, but that is just boldness for its own sake, not because the stone requires the FA to be bold, so in my mind it's purely ego, "check me out, i'm bold, my pro sucks, i made sure of it!".
considering some examples made in this thread:
BY:
could the BY have been left for a climber who didn't need the pro placed from hooks?
did JB even need them? or was that compromise also made so that others would have access to the route?
WoS:
would those guys have possibly taken more grief if they'd rapped in a set up a free route? wha if DR and SJ aided up WoS and set it up as a free climb? f*#king thing hasn't seen sh#t for traffic in 20+ what years? i'd say let's find a way to get some use out of the fact that all those holes were drilled there.
the aid climbers have voted w/ their feet on that one.
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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Matt is speaking my language.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Ok, one last go for the evening. The difference is, Bob, that instead of those folks representing a ratio of something like 1:5,000 or 1:10,000 in the mid-70's they now represent a ratio of something more like 1:500,000 (wild ass guessing here, but you get the idea) - they are the peak of a far broader-based pyramid. The 'traffic' and impact each one of them represents is fairly enormous given 80-85% of the base is wholly bolt-dependent now versus barely any in the mid-70s.
And while they perform and accomplish great feats - the raising grades (pure physical difficulty vs. endurance) are fast approaching the same sort of curve experienced on the times for running a mile or doing a 100 meter freestyle - increasingly smaller incremental gains. Having seen that end game played out between computers and humans in chess it simply holds little fascination for me.
And while I'm all for folks pursuing those limits, I'm at least willing to acknowledge the price paid to support today's base population of climbers whose midst such 'stars' emerge from. It is not without a cost. I don't consider it all 'progress'. I find nothing inherently interesting about a grade - any grade - only lines are interesting. And scared? Surely, that must be it...
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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healyje,
well said! There seems to be a huge divide who don't seem to care how a route was put up as long as they have routes to climb. On the other side is a group who cares about the style and ethics. It is sad to me that some people don't seem to care about style and ethics and only care about the result.
Not to make this a political thread, but I think a whole lot of problems we are facing in this country are because of the same "the end justifies the means" attitude we see being expressed here. Just look at how the pro-Iraq war crowd are now justifying their invasion of Iraq. Where I am standing it is exactly the same thing.
Bruce
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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but what would you say if they'd straight aided and drilled their way up the slab?
or should they have just left it alone?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Karl, Blair, and Matt,
If you want some examples of somebody aiding a steep slab/face with lots of drilling:
Harding and Rowell, on the original Half Dome South Face route. Harding's approach for minimal impact slab aiding was to use 1/4" batholes, with occasional bolts. I don't think anyone has been back to try to create a free route out of the slab part of their route, probably because the lower part looks too hard to free.
the Uriostes, Prince of Darkness, in Black Velvet Canyon at Red Rocks. They made a bolt ladder and then pulled some of the bolts because not all were needed for free climbing. They used the same methods on other routes at Red Rocks.
[4/3/08 Edit: I'm informed by Greg Barnes, who has done a lot of ASCA bolt replacement at Red Rocks, that Jorge Urioste more often used batholes between bolts, rather than placing and pulling; also a few belays were moved and a few of the 1/4" bolts broke off due to leader falls after the FAs. So that is a more accurate description of his technique on those routes.]
I haven't seen the rock on the upper 1000' of Growing Up, so I don't know if it has fewer stances than Southern Belle or Cataclysmic Megasheer. Probably Sean estimated that it would be about the same as Southern Belle. If he was correct, it would be sketchy to get it done on lead by free climbing between stances, and maybe he didn't have those skills or didn't want to take those risks. I'm sure the idea of drilling bathook ladders was not very appealling to him. That is more of an option for somebody like Harding who couldn't free 5.11 between stances and did not mind drilling.
Doing the upper slab on rappel allowed Sean to use his rapbolting skills to make a route with lots of bolts that might be popular if it was a little more accessible (it requires a lot of effort due to the approach, short seasons, hard free climbing in the arch, the bolt ladder which some free climbing purists might not want to do, and the fact that the upper part is slab climbing which does not seem to be popular). I hope I am wrong and it does get some ascents.
I suppose the adventure of doing a ground up version of the FA of the upper slab is not really blocked, since Doug described a version to the left which blanks out after 300'. Maybe someone will go up there and have that adventure. It wouldn't be a 1000' bolt ladder. If the upper 1000' had not been rap bolted, and somebody had done it ground up and managed to find the same line of climbing that Sean found on rappel, if they were capable of drilling the 5.10 pitches on lead from stance, then there might have been some bathook ladders on the few 5.11 pitches. Or if someone does the left version, there might be a bolt ladder through the blank section (I don't think it was mentioned how long that was), or they could presumably pendulum left or right to find freeclimbable rock.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Matt,
> if they'd climbed those arches banging in pins the whole way, that'd be ok, the FA's perogative, right? (but of course they didn't). still, they could have done, on aid, whatever the hell they wanted, because their are no limits to what aid guys can do to get where they are going, they just get to do whatever they want, whether or not the terrain they are on can be climbed w/out aid tactics. but to put up a free route, they were bound to an aid climber's ethic, even though that aid climber's ethic would have allowed them to hammer and scar where they didn't (need to) do so.
Uh, since when is an aid climber's ethic "no limits", "hammer and scar", etc.? That sounds like a non-ethic. The ethic that I know about is called "minimal impact", using clean aid whenever you can. I don't think you see many people banging in pins on the Nose or Salathe' these days, so this ethic seems to be popular.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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chill out dude, with dialogue like that you must be a POME, just think what Sir Douglas Scott would think of your rambling on..........................Hey, this is Yosemite, the rule is no rules apply!
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raymond phule
climber
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"The 'traffic' and impact each one of them represents is fairly enormous given 80-85% of the base is wholly bolt-dependent now versus barely any in the mid-70s."
and other comments about gym climbers.
I dont believe this discussion is about bolt dependent gym climbers vs trad climbers.
It is possibly to be a trad climber with pretty sound climbing etics and still believe that a rap bolted route could be a better choice than a death route in some cases.
Bold routes have their place and BY is a prime example of a good bold route because it is actually repeated.
The possibilities on the south face of half dome seems to be:
aided bolt/rivet/bathooks ladders.
ground up death routes with very very few repeats.
rap bolted routes that actually might get repeated once in a while.
no route at all.
This is my view and I believe I am a pretty standard trad climber that dont like huge runouts but like to climb climbs like central pillar of frenzy, nut cracker, east buttress of middle and walls. I am atleast not feeling I am a gym climber...
I am also pretty glad that the FA on east buttres on middle didn't try to be bold and free climb the 10.c ground up that probably would have resulted in no bolts and very few later ascents.
I almost believe that it was more people on the east buttress when I climbed it than have been on the south face of half dome in the last 40 years...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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What's worse, a thread 389 posts long about bolting ethics, or a political thread?
Don't make me start a political thread.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: Ok, one last go for the evening. The difference is, Bob, that instead of those folks representing a ratio of something like 1:5,000 or 1:10,000 in the mid-70's they now represent a ratio of something more like 1:500,000 (wild ass guessing here, but you get the idea) - they are the peak of a far broader-based pyramid. The 'traffic' and impact each one of them represents is fairly enormous given 80-85% of the base is wholly bolt-dependent now versus barely any in the mid-70s.
Joe....you might have a point if the climbers who did this route would fall into your profile....they don't and again thanks for gloom and doom to scare us into thinking that climbing is heading into a big-black-hole.
I ain't buying it just like I didn't buy the fear induced reasons for the Iraq invasion. Your wild ass quessing is just that and the same tactics used by Bush & Co to get this country into a non-declared war.
Your disdain for gym climbers, bolts and sport-climbers is apparent and that is a fact and that's ok...but your reasons for not liking this route and others like it are based on emotions and nothing more. You haven't climb the route, seen the route or talked to someone who has.
Your statements are based on emotions and nothing more!!!!
The only person presenting facts on this thread so far has been Doug...he has been honest, straightforward and under the circumstances...a gentleman.
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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this thread is great!!!
one final point from me (the popcorn is almost done)
There seems to be a misunderstanding of ethics.
climbing ethics are set by the community to protect the community and its resources. so far the community (in this case supertopo, maybe a bad test subject) thinks that it was the wrong style to rap bolt the route.
nothing more needs said.
ill say it again, do not lower the bar so that you can climb the route. leave it alone or get stronger. if its a death route its a death route. it may not see much traffic, but you care about your experience, DR, on the route then this fact is relevant and whom ever sends the route after you will also have to deal with the challenges that you had. if you wanted to set up a line that could be followed and benefit the community then i hope you placed enough bolts for me to think its safe!
(i like run outs but i get scared at the 20 m mark....thanks)
the route was simply to difficult for you to send it in good style so it was beaten into submission by people who should know better, driven by what.......... or to what aim..........? it hasn't impressed me. why did you climb it?
good luck guys.
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Darren D.
Social climber
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Let he who is without sin chop the first bolt...
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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There seems to be a misunderstanding of ethics.
You hit that nail square on the head. Unfortunately, the misunderstanding is yours. There really is no ethical issue here at all. The only issue is that of style. You seem also to have missed the point that there are any number of people that are quite accepting of the style (in your "ethical" argument).
If there were an ethical issue, it might be about whether bolts were used, not how they were placed, which is the basis of your objection.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Good post Trad....you beat me to it.
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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Ethics denotes the theory of right action
this was an unfortunate side track in my degree because it made me "more balanced"
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WBraun
climber
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Yes, ethics is the basic principle of purification.
Of course, in this material world everything is immoral, but still we have to distinguish good and bad.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Boy, next thing you know rap bolting is going to spread to Tuolumne,
the bastion of ground-up ethics. Oh wait, stop the press... No luck, that
one has already been printed in the new guide. Look for it right next to Piece.
So what is the next step here. Almost 400 posts in a couple of days, and
we have a stalemate. I see some people view this route as the beginning
of the end. Or maybe even the end itself.
The fact is, we're not talking about gym climbers going out and grid-bolting
faces. We have SAR guys rap bolting, and old-school heros rap bolting, and
born-and-bred Yosemite locals rap bolting. [Ed: thanks ec]
Some folks put up routes for themselves--the famous quote goes "I'm not about
putting up public-service routes." Others put up routes to be climbed and
enjoyed by anybody with the skills for that grade.
"Death" routes have their place (although few have died on them). But even though
the Arches Terrace routes have been completely retrofitted, those routes, for the
most part, remain untouched. Indeed, there was a long thread about this very
subject, started by Werner, not long ago: Museum Climbs?
(http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=447487);.
I am not arguing that rap bolting is good, or desirable. In fact, I spent a
lot time writing an article and arguing till blue in the face that "rap
bolting steals the best that a route has to give, that of the first ascent."
So where are we. Do we call Ken Nichols? Do we live with some amount of
rap bolting? Should we publish rap-bolted routes in guides, or smash
rap-bolter's cars.
Is there a point where the quality of a route trumps the style in which was put up?
Do we give a pass to some top-downers because of their status in the climbing world,
or because the route they "opened" is high-quality, or do we put a blanket
statement out saying "NO RAP BOLTING" and chop all rap routes. Because if
you chop this route, there's a few more to go before you rid the planet of the disease.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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400...and still going strong.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Really a great thread. And an important disscussion.
I bet 5 post cards this thread tops 500.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho
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It's a cool route done in good style. In this case the style serves climbers rather than egos.
There was a famous doctor named Spock who said the the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. This was after they toasted Khan.
DR must be the new Spock. Feckin cool.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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The nice thing about 400+ ...
We should be able to build a list of the ST control freaks.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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fattrad, you have no idea how the film crew got involved and what the motivation was for the movie. This route did not start out as a publicity stunt, and it did not end as one.
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Count your blessings, boys. If the SF of HD was as accessible as El Cap, you would easily have 50 of these contrivances on it. As it is, it is a stylistically unremarkable climb on an otherwise remarkable face.
It seems, by consensus (except for a couple of bolt the planet types), that we now have:
Southern Belle - A Bad Idea
Growing Up - A Bad Decision
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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It's funny that if the route went in and the only info about the FA was a topo nary a word would be said about it. But since it was reported that it was rap bolted it became much more controversial and interesting. The means are more interesting to discuss than the end.
I think I agree with Karl, the quality of the route is more important than the style of the FA (edit: within reason of course, or at least the quality of the resulting route needs to be addressed when deciding on the style of the FA). Like I said if they didn't report on the style of the FA we wouldn't know any difference. But if there were an extra 100 holes needed for a ground up FA that to me is a more tangible negative consequence.
And for this establishing a precedent leading to a slippery slope of sport climb big walls with bolts every 5 feet, come on that's like saying pot leads to meth. Sure the climb possibly opened some eyes that rap bolting big walls is possible, but everyone is going to make their own decisions, and hopefully climb in the best style they feel is appropriate for their FA. It is good we are taking a hard look at what happened (and the thoughts behind the route were discussed in the article) because hopefully that will influence future climbers to look hard when putting up FAs too.
People forget that style is a spectrum. At one end is the best style: no bolts, ground up, no shoes, no chalk, free solo. At the other end is: bolt ladder, rap bolt, hand dogging. Depending on the difficulty hopefully the FA decides how far to deviate from the best style to put up the climb, often with an eye on the final product that will probably be there for hundreds or more years vs. that one time experience of the FA. Probably everyone here who has done an FA has deviated from the best possible style in the manner they feel is approriate, but some think that the level they are willing to compromise to should be the same for everyone. Basically people living in glass houses need to be careful when they throw stones.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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"At one end is the best style: no bolts, ground up, no shoes, no chalk, free solo."
Uh, I just want to interrupt for a minute to suggest changing that to 'purist' style rather than best.
Not semantics either IMHO. 'Best' could be argumentative.
"Purist" I think isn't...
carry on...
DD
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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The film crew never filmed them setting the route, as Doug said.
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couchmaster
climber
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Look, this isn't about rap bolting as much as it is about the acceptable styles and traditions in Yosemite. Many of us have no problem with rap bolted routes at Smith or other places at all, if that is the prevailing ethic. (Some if us do have issues, but thats not what is being discussed here.)
When Alan Watts freed the Stigma after Skinner had all but got his ropes sh#t on for hangdogging it into submission and placing pro on rappel, Watts, despite being a proponent of rap bolting in his little corner of the world at Smith Rocks, did it ground up and even placed a piton on lead. He kept the style of the ditch and it still went at 5.13 something. He rose to the occasion and the challenge, and it was an amazing lead and standard setting route.
It's about being Yosemite and keeping the standards and historical ethics of this place, which are different than Smith, say. Each area has accepted styles and ethics and history.
This is Yosemite....or it was.....
Where is the logical place this change in acceptable style heading too? Maybe I'll go rap bolt the route next to Snake Dike now, since it's all OK now and everything. I can put a bolt every 6 feet, for those who are going to follow, and those not strong enough to free it (mostly likely myself) can then use a stick clip to aid it. Or we can bolt on a few holds for those who need them, nothing wrong with that is there? Is that the direction this is going? To make climbing safe and inclusive for all? Like John Long said: this route is probably a good route, that is not the issue: does it not now open the door to my rap bolted gymfest next to Snake Dike described above? The style is very similar, and a logical outgrowth of this very route. .....I mean, I want to make the cover of climbing magazine too, and that would do it, since it's OK to do it this way via rappel and all now, bringing the rock down to my level, instead of rising to the challenge. I've rap bolted too, and have some plans for more, almost on a Bob D'Antonio level - so don't mean to sound all preachy and holier than thou - but never rap bolted in the valley. Would never consider it. Till now anyway, but now that it's OK and all......maybe a new rap bolted route on El Cap is the ticket?
Since theres no issue with it, you're fine with it, right Doug? I have heard from some folks that if someone thinks it's OK to just put bolts in where they want (other places, not about this route), by that ethic, it's OK for anyone else who disagrees to just pull them out. I haven't been able to out logic that argument yet, and find that although I generally agree with it, in practice I find it quite sad and unproductive as well. I'm not saying this in a mean way, but really do wonder where the logical conclusion of this major shift in attitude can (and invariably will) lead.
This is my last post on this subject, and I really have a fair bit of ambivalence still. Although I like cracks above all, I do clip bolts. I place bolts. I will be rap bolting later this summer. I understand the argument that if you're going to put in a route (which is a new concept in itself "putting in a route", I don't think NA Wall was "Put in" or "Developed" by "Route Developers"), then you have an obligation to those that follow (another new idea). Yet in Yosemite, that wasn't on the agenda or thought list anywhere, it was about rising to the challenge and restricting ourselves so as to maintain the challenge, which is why we (many of us older folks anyway) climb anyway.
Some things to muse over:
Take care all
Bill
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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If this wall was as accessable as el cap, I couldn't imagine what the '80s would have done with it. Given some of the ideologies of San Diego Sport climbers.... 70' pitches of 11b with 15 holes per, weaving in and out of ever concievable inch. Hehe.
Honestly though, the hike isn't that bad. Actually pretty fun, you get a good warmup, kill some beer calories, and you have a fantastic view the whole way up. Not to mention, no sound of traffic, cars, and spectacular view of little yos valley (which is somewhere i've wanted to climb for some time now... now THAT would be a hike!)
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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It might be worth noting that Growing Up was not the central focus of Doug's film. Doug's project merged with Sean's idea of putting up a climbable route on SFoHD long after Doug's project was underway.
I add this to clarify the fact that Growing Up was not bred to be a publicity stunt, there was an opportunity there to show an FA, and Doug took it.
[Doug, hope I'm not stepping on your toes here...]
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Maybe I'll go rap bolt the route next to Snake Dike now, since it's all OK and everything. I can put a bolt every 6 feet, and those not strong enough to free it (mostly likely myself) can then use a stick clip to aid it. Or we can bolt on a few holds for those who need them, nothing wrong with that is there?
wow, I guess there really is no bottom to the level of human stupidity.
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ec
climber
ca
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bred not bread...
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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"wow, I guess there really is no bottom to the level of human stupidity"
says the self-identified gym climber. As long as he's bolting every six feet for the good of climbers everywhere...
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moss hog
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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The rats are completing the maze much faster now. The humans are getting better and greener at a few things too. When will the climbers catch up or will they?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nice to know, Domingo, that you've never climbed in a gym (or are you just too proud to admit it?). lol...
"As long as he's bolting every six feet for the good of climbers everywhere..."
Did somebody really endorse this, I missed it.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Couchmaster,
Yes, some of us do have a problem with all the rap bolting at Smith. Once upon a time there was a ground up ethic there too. Rap bolting didn't become the accepted style until Alan rammed it down our throats for a few years. That was kind of the whole point of my earlier post.
I really do wonder if Sean and Doug will now welcome ALL rap bolting on SFHD or will they draw their own lines, based on experience etc. I'm sure they have their own thoughts about what's acceptable.
Fill me in guys, exactly what's "unacceptable"?
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Reasonable question there of Survival's.
I have postcards too, so 5 to whomever bumps this before it hits 500.
"legitimate" bump only... (I know that word's argumentative as well but you get my meaning I think/hope).
Cheers,
DD
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adventurewagen
Trad climber
Seattle
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My initial comments took a look at the absolutes. Apparently people couldn't handle that so let me present something a bit more gray.
I still don't much like the idea of rap bolting but I'm not sure this route is the beginning of the end. For example read the article in the same issue of R&I on the Robbins route redone (Arcturex I believe its called). It was also rappelled for cleaning and placing a few key bolts with permission from the FA party. It sounds like they only bolted in places where pins would have needed to be fixed.
Again doing it ground up and just getting the FFA to me seems like the best style, but I'm starting to cave. Maybe cleaning the route is an ok thing to rappel in for. Maybe adding a bolt on rappel is better than hammering a pin on lead and destroying the usable climbing feature? Then thinking about it, while you are there cleaning and rappeling why not preview and TR some of the crux pitches? It's slippery slope, I'm just not sure there is a big cliff at the bottom waiting to fall off.
Realistically the route those guys cleaned and retro bolted sounds awesome. It would have been sweet if they could have just climbed the route ground up free but maybe it's just not something we should be asking or pushing people to do. Maybe what they did was just put up the first clean ascent on an old climb in a style that we need to see more of?
I mean before they cleaned up Arcturex (correct me on the name pleas) it is a route I could only dream of climbing. I'd probably just have aided the route, but know that it's been cleaned and bolts added to free climable pitches that otherwise needed aid I can actually add it to my list of routes to live up to.
So with that, maybe this whole rap bolting of "Growing Up" isn't so bad and that maybe there isn't any big slope to slide from? DR mentions that had it been more feasible ground up wouled have been preferred. I'm starting to think that maybe this route isn't going to push us in the wrong direction, maybe future FA parties will look at it and push themselves harder to put something up in a cleaner style.
As people have stated, maybe half dome is the next big play ground for hard FA's and because these guys have so much experience in the valley and understanding of the ethics other teams will take that knowledge and use it to better their climbs. I'm starting to think I'd like to go get on this climb. Maybe those top pitches are beautiful and maybe it will give others inspiration in knowing there are climbs left and that they'll want to up the anty yet again by going ground up and free.
Whose to say this isn't going to usher in the next generation of climbers with a mentality and goal to put in ground up protectable routes such as this? Maybe it's not that we need more death routes maybe we need those guys to truly step up and figure out how to put up ground up routes others can repeat.
Ok, now I'm just getting off topic myself. Seriously though. Take a step back and question whether this may not help push the balance and ethics back the other way? I sure as hell would never rap bolt anything on HD after reading this thread and everyones views. Even the people that agree with it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Acturus might get us to 600!
Half Dome, it's sin city!
Snake Dike retro-bolted.
Robbins drilled unnecessary bolt ladders on a route that would go free at only 12a
Teams competed to snag the FA on the Direct and decades later Skinner fixed lines up the thing and camped there for weeks working it (and still got accused of not really freeing it) Caldwell just did the second Free ascent 14a.
Harding got grief for the bathook ladders on the South Face
Hedge mentioned some stuff about Southern Belle
and now "Growing up" and "Acturus"
That first ascensionist set the stage in the late 1800s with his heavy handed drilling.
;-)
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"Like John Long said: this route is probably a good route, that is not the issue: does it not now open the door to my rap bolted gymfest next to Snake Dike described above? "
Here's where I really blaspheme and speak only for myself.
I wouldn't give a crap if there were some long, well bolted routes on Half Dome. 10 and easy 11 slab climbs up Half Dome? Bring em on!
Would it be so much worse than EL Cap where there are about 50 routes, beaten into submission ground up but with fixed lines, telescoped scouting, trenched heads and bolt and rivet ladders?
Or the Glacier Point Apron, with it's rusty 1/4 inchers, where I go on Labor Day weekend to have a wall to myself?
That's just speaking for me. I'm all for finding some concensus where possible and then considering these kind of developments on a case by case basis when they come up.
Peace
Karl
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Karl, do you think they need to put up a little ladder aid-fest (from the ground of course) for the COOFC (Confederation of old fart climbers) to talk about doing over beers - endlessly talking about it, of course?
Seems like "Kangaroo Court" would be a nice route name. After all, these guys broke the unpublished rules of the unchartered, unorganized confederation.
Do some of them sound a little shrubbian trying and convicting without evidence of a violation of an unwritten rule. I tell ya, this is a political thread. It is over 400 posts! What more evidence do we need?
Guilty - sentence them to an aid ladder. :-)
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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This is a good thread. I'm impressed overall by keeping the discourse civil. And I'm often impressed by the quality of thought; next to climbing itself, it's the many brilliant people who've also chosen climbing as a way of life -- you drawn me to this community.
We never considered aiding all the way up that wall. Our aim was to create a free climb. I started to say "put up," but one result of our stylistic decision is that I don't get to use that language here. For the first time in my life. I'm a trad guy, not much of a bolter, and this was the first time I've ever rap bolted.
So the goal was a free climb. But just as we rejected aid (irrelevant) we also rejected the total monopoly -- I could say stranglehold -- of death routes on the central South Face. I'll leave off the R-rated stuff marching in from the left, beginning way back with Snake Dike and including Autobahn and Cataclysmic Megasheer -- good routes I aspire to. And yeah, I'll be happy on them that someone else put the bolts in and I can focus instead on the quality of the climbing.
But rejecting the monopoly the X-men had on this wall meant going beyond our cherished ground-up ideals. For me, it was the first time. It is a compromise. Remember, it took us a lot of thought over a long time to go there. So we must have had good reasons, for us, to do it. We wanted us, and you, to be able to climb on this stellar rock without putting our lives on the line. For us the climbing up there was worth it. We wish you the same. If our compromise is distateful to you, go climb Southern Belle. Probably much similar rock. Your choice, and now there is a choice.
That rock is unique. Nothing like it in the Valley. Nothing like it in Tuolumne that I've seen, which is a lot more surprising. It's exciting! Go check it out.
I still feel divided within myself for coming in from above. When Werner says "just walk on by," a part of me goes "right on!" Absolutiststs and the more judgmental among us may struggle with this, but it's my honest feeling. In the end, I too voted with my feet. And I still believe in what I did. What we did.
One thing that really surprises me as I "grow up" -- a process fo' sho', that one -- is realizing how much the tendency to cling to absolutes and to be judgmental varies among us all. They're not givens, but rather personality traits. (see the Meyers-Briggs Personality Types, a series of sliding scales begun by C.G. Jung. The first of four is the well known scale going from introvert to extrovert. The fourth and final scale is anchored at one end by the trait of judging and runs the other way to "perceiving." That scale has been very illuminating to me as I scan us climbers who are, yes, a lot like humans.) So clinging to absolutes and being judgmental is, while not exactly a person's choice, at least a variable among us. But if you live in that realm, your tendency is to feel righteously that we all should be like you. But -- surprise -- we're not. Catch-22 anyone? Check it out...
So when I say I feel torn within myself about this decision to rap bolt, I'm not going wishy-washy on you but telling my truth. Doesn't make this discussion any easier, just more real. And it's a heads-up from my world to the loudly judgmental fringe of this discussion. Think about it. May be too real for some, too (ahem) runout... So if this still makes you squirm inside then you can retreat, gravitate instead to what we actually did, how in the end we voted with our feet. And we can carry on from that level. But the rabbit hole goes deeper than that...
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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I propose that all posters to this thread who have not climbed the Bachar-Yerian and/or cannot lead 5.12 trad should be banned from posting on this thread. I mean, come on, how can mere mortals like myself even have an opinion ??
Cracko
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Is that US 5.12 trad, or UK 5.12 trad ?
I might just qualify for one of those, even though my opinion matters shite anyway.
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WBraun
climber
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Cracko
To limit discourse and opinion to only people you feel are qualified seems non constructive and inflexible.
The discussion goes far deeper than the surface problems we see as our false bodily identification as "climbers" only.
I am trad, or I am sport, or I am mountaineer, etc etc
We have some limited independent free will, rights and choices to do right or wrong.
In our worldly affairs sometimes what seems right can be wrong and vice verse, what seems wrong can be right. The only way to know for sure is to test against the absolute standard.
Even in this material world there are standards which are set to measure the truth.
The Absolute Truth is that from which everything emanates .......
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Good perspective from Karl Baba, as usual:
The First Ascent of the entire Half Dome was a bolt ladder (George Anderson, October 1875).
First big aid climb in Yosemite. First bolt ladder anywhere, ever. He set another precedent too that time has validated: he spent days, probably weeks, putting it up. Installed fixed ropes to his high point. It took him so long that he built a cabin to bivy in, at that spring a mile back down the trail.
Of course since Robbins has walked down that face outside the cables ("with his hands in his pockets" goes the legend), then the cables "should" probably be chopped...
Anyway, since then we've made a little progress. Or as the Dalai Lama said to a huge crowd I was in, "Spiritual progress? Maybe a little. But certain bad bugs..." For one, we now don't bother to drill the 1" by 6" holes Anderson made. And for another, as Robbins demonstrated on Anderson's route, free climbing has trumped aid as the evolving front.
All that was in the movie that never got made...
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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going back a few posts-
clint, do you really hear what you are saying?
if i understand, you are of the opinion that to continuously drill holes on lead for passage of the FA, only to intentionally fill them and leave a bolted free climb behind, one which was neither attempted nor ascended by the FA, would somehow be "better" than respecting the rock itself enough to aspire to minimize the drilling necessary to leave behind the same bolted free climb?
(edit: my understanding of valley traditions is that at their heart, they aspire to protect the stone itself, which so many of us have always agreed was worthy of a level of respect that is hard for most of us to put into words)
IMO, all tradition and local history notwithstanding, that just holds no water at all. it would be one thing if you said ground up- drilling from a stance- or not at all (i am not even sure i would disagree entirely), but to say that it's ok to build and erase a ladder in order to abide by tradition, even when nobody ever will repeat the aid ascent of the top 1000', man that just blows me away. that approach seems destructive and abusive of the resource, anything but proud for the FA, and at least as likely to stir up a shitstorm of controversey after the fact.
if it were done that way, i would feel even less interested in ever climbing the route.
(note: we are not talking about linking features w/ aid, but continuously chipping your way up a slab, just as the WoS crew were accused of doing. in such a case, how is patching the batholes anything but obscuring your dirty laundry?)
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Karl, great summary. Doug, good addition.
But you are both forgetting one very obvious addition...
Park Service rap-bolts the MOTHER of all routes, with artificial holds and
massive bolts for pro. Yes, holds every 6 feet, and no need to bring a
stick clip. They even bolted over an existing route!! Access given to those
that only need to walk.
Sorry couchmaster, they beat you to it.
[ducking...]
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Gene
climber
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The first HD bolter was from Scotland. How can Haggis live with himself?
Geo. Anderson took a week on his FA according to Roper in Camp 4.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I think you are missing the point that George Anderson's cable route was put in 'ground up'. I think that says it all.
Bruce
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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And to think that I'll likely get famous in a mag. for a chop.
Jody's evil twin.
As opposed to being infamous here on ST for being a hack.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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They even bolted over an existing route!!
Good one, K-man!
Yeah, you'd think that after bolting over his route the NPS would have the decency to patch behind themselves. Jeez!
I mean, show some respect and set an example for the future for all us benighted souls and (sub-) human climbers.
But they're still there, and you can find them, especially up high between the cables. We found and filmed one of Old George's original holes that still had the stub of one of his bolts in it.
Incidentally, if you're in the neighborhood with a rope and gear you can climb outside the cables w/o touching them at max 5.5. My kids loved it. (Dang! There I go making routes for other people again. I owe it all to this thread that I now understand how morally reprehensible that can be...)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Bruce wrote: I think you are missing the point that George Anderson's cable route was put in 'ground up'. I think that says it all.
Bruce
No...your missing the point that ground is not alway best. That blotch jobs happen ground up and on rappel that maybe sometimes in certain situations doing it pre-inspection and from the top saves the rock from numerous un-needed placements.
DR wrote: I owe it all to this thread that I now understand how morally reprehensible that can be...)
Doesn't the Taliban think that women who drive car are morally wrong, men who drink and women that show their face morally wrong.
Unbelievable that some people on this thread think it morally wrong to place a rap-placed bolt on a wall but not a ground up one.
Sick...if you ask me.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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DR said a while back,
"I think that's part of this equation that some of you aren't quite seeing yet: That we gave up our personal FA experience, traded it away "
i can hear GW now to the iraqi's. i didnt want to sacrifice american lives for your freedom but thats part of the equation some of you are not getting, i chose to kill some of you and some americans to give you freedom.
BS DR. no offense, i dont have an issue with your route. i do have an issue with you guys thinking that you were sacrificing your experienc for mine. i call complete BS on that one...
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Now there you go again, Bob.
Focusing on the quality of the route, as if that mattered.
Reaganesque :-)
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Haggis
Trad climber
Scotland
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Gene: its your climbing and your ethics, you guys have to make up your own minds.
lots of the original climbers are British, i don't hold my community accountable for their actions, eg the Matterhorn, Everest, 2nd acent of Mont Blanc (first was a local for money in competition i believe but the French know nothing about ethics). we had a large bolting spree in the 80ies and before and we still have problems with bolting and style arguments today but the community remains solid after these events.
the really interesting argument is: when i am climbing in Yosemite as a brit, am allowed to nail a route? It is not within the ethics of my community and is damaging the way i have been brought up so maybe not. however can i adopt the ethics of the area i am in and nail away? i sort of feel that when i pound a nail into el cap that i am damaging my upbringing as a clean climber.
sh!t i may have to re climb Zodiac - what ever will i do
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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DR wrote
"Incidentally, if you're in the neighborhood with a rope and gear you can climb outside the cables w/o touching them at max 5.5. My kids loved it"
Why didn't you name THAT one "Growing Up"?
Peace
Karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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DR....I think you next movie should be of Fat, Bruce and Joe doing your route and then climbing a new one on the South Face ground up.
I would pay good money to see that.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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maybe one of the experts cans set me straight:
if i 5th class it outside the of cables, is it more offensive to rap Growing Up, or to walk down the cables w/ the sheeple?
thanks in advance!
EDIT
the route now exists
it will either stand or it will be erased
internet discussion is just that and nothing more
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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449 and...
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Karl, isn't that route "Kids Posing for Tourists"?
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Fattrad,
Is this route getting chopped on lead?
-JR
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I was never good enough to ride the Tour de France. Should the Tour de France build me an escalator so I can go up the climbs as fast as Lance Armstrong?
If I am not good enough to do climbs like Southern Belle and Autobahn, should somebody rap bolt a route on the South Face of Half Dome just so I can climb on it?
Bruce
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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bruce, a 1200cc bike should get you up those hills faster than lance.
again, i dont have an issue personally with the route. i have an issue with someone claiming they lowered their experience just for me. maybe i lived a bad childhood and dont believe anyone would be that nice for me, i dunno...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Bruce wrote: was never good enough to ride the Tour de France. Should the Tour de France build me an escalator so I can go up the climbs as fast as Lance Armstrong?
If I am not good enough to do climbs like Southern Belle and Autobahn, should somebody rap bolt a route on the South Face of Half Dome just so I can climb on it?
Bruce
Bruce...they used different bikes, style and equipment in the Tour than in the 50's...should Lance have ridden the Tour on a old 40 lbs steel bike, drinking wine and smoking cigs...just because they did it like that in the 50's.
He still did the race and Sean and Doug still climbed the route...they used different tactics than before.
It obvious that Sean is good enough...he didn't do it in the style you prefer and that really is the crux of the matter for a lot of folks here.
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Chewbongka
climber
लघिमा
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go Bob go!
456... Whoo Hooo!
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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How many self-appointed climbing style judges have posted on here so far?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Bob,
it is not obvious to me that Sean was good enough. If Sean was good enough then why didn't he do the route in the style of the routes on the same piece of rock. Shipley, Schultz, etc. were good enough to run it out and drill. That's not what Sean did.
Bruce
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WBraun
climber
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Mixing ethics and style into one big melding point as being done so far by various individuals here to make a conclusive argument will no doubt cause bewilderment and misunderstanding.
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Bob sez: Bruce...they used different bikes, style and equipment in the Tour than in the 50's...should Lance have ridden the Tour on a old 40 lbs steel bike, drinking wine and smoking cigs...just because they did it like that in the 50's.
Your analogy is silly.
Whether you do the TDF on a 40 lb steel bike, a carbon fiber rocket or a unicycle, you have not permanently altered the experience for anyone else.
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minexploration
Social climber
Whitefish Montana
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Are we going to hit 600 posts? That would be amazing, but I am starting to see little improvement in the discussion.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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some people on this thread think it morally wrong to place a rap-placed bolt on a wall but not a ground up one.
In a Warren Hardingesque slow pitched drawl:
That's like, perhaps, having sex with a call girl when she's on top is very proper; but having sex with a call girl where you are on top is gross, immoral, or whatever.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Substitute DR as a partner for somebody with at least equal climbing talent to that of Sean's and maybe there would have been a different outcome. Even DR states they would have been more proud of the line had it been finished on the lead. No offense Doug, but it wasn't exactly the dream team for a route that demanded such a high skill level. Then if the route did go but was too run out for the user friendly masses, you could have added bolts on rappel. That, in my opinion, would have been doing a so called "greater good" for the climbing community. Further, this thread would have never existed.
BTW, who did climb the route?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Bruce wrote: Bob,
it is not obvious to me that Sean was good enough. If Sean was good enough then why didn't he do the route in the style of the routes on the same piece of rock. Shipley, Schultz, etc. were good enough to run it out and drill. That's not what Sean did.
Bruce
Because he choose not too...plain & simple. You don't like the style they did it in...so what.
Mike S...They did not alter anything for about 99.5 per-cent of the climbing community. I'm willing to bet than less than 0.5 percent of the climbing population actually climb the route.
Mike wrote: altered the experience for anyone else.
Bruce, Clint, you and others have no problem altering the experience for someone else...as long as it done ground up
Again...just admit that you don't like the style.
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adventurewagen
Trad climber
Seattle
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Can we get a topo of said route? I'd like to scrutinize it from bolt to bolt now ;)
Seriously, a topo would be nice to actually see what we are talking about considering nobody has been up the dang thing.
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Nice edit Bob.
Had you for a minute there...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Leave it to the fat angry republican who has not a chance in hell of ever being good enough to climb the damn thing to be the most vocal for a chop job.......
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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What's worse a fat angry republican or a fat angry lesbian?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Fatty, I'm curious. If you rap and remove the upper half of the route, what do
you plan to accomplish? Are you making a point to the world that rap bolting is
bad? If so, why single out this particular route. After all, it's only half bad.
There's plenty of others that were put up wholly on rappel, why not chop those?
Or, is it that Half Dome is sacred ground and rap bolting should not be allowed
on this formation? If so, I hope you don't plan on using the cable route
to get down. Then you'd be letting one rap route flourish, even use it
to your own ends, but ban another.
BTW, you cannot "erase" a route once it has been established. You can destroy it,
but the route will still exist.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Did someone rap bolt Half Dome???
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Fatty...like most neo-cons and republicans talk a good game. It when it get to game time that their knees get weak and falter. :)
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Gene
climber
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Fatty's trolling your skinny asses and you bite every time. Too funny.
Disclaimer: Not the official position of the McCain campaign.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Russ, they only rap-bolted half of Half Dome. So really, they rap-bolted Quarter Dome.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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oh shiit!!! Now somebody has rap bolted Quarter Dome too! Oh the Humanity!
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Fat,
I really don't want to encourage you, but your persistence in maintaing the "Chop it" posts, amidst all the high and mighty ethics diatribes is making me laugh out loud. You are definitely getting under people's skin and that is even funnier.
Sometimes ya just gotta laugh at the sillyness of all this !!!
Cracko
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xtrmecat
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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I usually just lurk but this is too much. I have learned from my heroes and those that have climbed before me enough to get a set of standards that I climb by, ethics and style if you will. Most of my heroes and mentors are from the days of old and Yosemite. Some still there, and some not. All I know is trad is the proudest form of climbing I found I can do and this climb seems to be a big letdown to what I have always thought Yosemite climbing, ethics, style, and acceptability to be. Sad day indeed.
I like WB am not good enough and walked on by. I am too old to ever climb at this level now, but if I could I would not even consider this as a classic line or even what I would want to do while visiting.
Bob
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Off-Width Loving Crack Whore
Trad climber
SLO
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Dirt Kenny-
Sean went through several partners.
Katie Brown- Left before the climbing started
Jake Jones- Worked the initial pitches until leaving to deal with the blown engine on his vehicle
Ben Montoya- Continued where Jake left off until needing to leave for his summer job
Sarah Watson- Had a bad experience with another partner on El Cap and was asked to join the team. Then she sprained her ankle while carrying a heavy load.
At this point DR's documentaion died due to a lack of funds, and he jumped in with Sean.
After equipping the upper 1,000 ft, Sarah re-joined to climb the route with Sean.
More info can be found in the article (Rock and Ice #165)
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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If you think Fatty's getting under my skin, then you've got me all wrong. In fact,
if he goes up there to chop the route, I'd like to help him! I'll chop the first
set of anchors once he goes down to chop the rest...
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WBraun
climber
|
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Systematically arguing for rhetoric and sophistry above wisdom certainly flourishes here.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Please, let's not encourage the Fat One.
I mean, every time he says: "chop it!" I get the giggles.
This thread is getting a little long in the tooth.
It would be cool if some of the young people, you know, like members of the new guard, would post up.
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ec
climber
ca
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this thread is just about dead...
Let's all go do our own thing now.
ec
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Gene
climber
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Bolts and Ethics, Summit, March 1961, Yvon Chouinard
Bolts have three uses: as rappel and belay anchors, for protection, and for direct aid.
{Snip}
2. Protection. Whether or not to put in a bolt for protection is a problem which is difficult to solve by an objective set of rules. {Blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada.}
On a first ascent, if the next lead looks like it will be very difficult, dangerous, and offers no chance for protection, and if the leader is an excellent and capable climber, then he is justified in placing a bolt. However, it is only justified if he thinks that it would be very dangerous even for a better climber than himself. For this reason, it is important for the leader to know his exact capabilities at that moment and to be able to judge a pitch on sight.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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When I read someone mention a rap bolted sport route next to snake dike i thought "Ppppthhbb. Lame. I'll probably climb it, though."
LOL. We all like fun. Is Yosemite a place for it?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Sounds subjective to me Gene...
EDIT:
And thanks for adding YC to the list of the self-appointed.
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flyingkiwi1
Trad climber
Seattle WA
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Systematically arguing for rhetoric and sophistry above wisdom certainly flourishes here.
Certainly this charitable contribution to the fortune cookie message-writers of the world must be foremost among the positive outcomes of this entended discourse.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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DMT says,"If you see fattrad? KILL HIM."
LOL
Pretty sure the walk up there would kill him!
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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walk up there?
are you kidding?
he's like, TOTALLY connected man!
he even sent me an email and offered me a ride up there to the top of HD in john "water-board" mccain's flip-flop-express-'copter if i'd help him chop the route (on rappel)
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Gene
climber
|
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Sounds subjective to me Gene...
No Sh#t,
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adventurewagen
Trad climber
Seattle
|
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So does anyone know about all the other routes in the same area as Snake Dike? I noticed while doing the route one time all the other bolts in the area within spitting distance of the route.
Now I'm just starting to wonder what routes those are and how they got put up.
Does anyone have a comprehensive guide to all the routes on HD? Something that's been kept up over the years with all the changes and new routes?
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Orion
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Well tarbaby, you asked for it I am of the new guard since I only started climbing in this decade, I learned to climb in Yosemite and do most of my climbing in Yosemite.
I would have had more respect for the FA team if they had stopped at the arch where it sounds like the line ended at least the line that they could climb with their abilities or acceptable risk. Leave the rest for another person to climb with more skill. Seems that the arch is where the climb should have ended for these guys.
Don't do anything for me, or put up routes on rappel because the line would be classic, only if I could climb past this blank section. That's just it you can't CLIMB past the blank section.
I thought Yosemite had an ethic where that you climb from the ground up and place gear or bolts on lead, it's a traditional area. To do otherwise is against the grain of the area. Rap bolting exists in other places, go do it there and the community that you are trying to put up a route for who don't climb X routes will appreciate it.
Did the community need this route on half dome or did you need to do it. and make it go to the top?
The runouts that the FA team had to do on the apron, and other places in the valley make sense to me and I like the spice of climbing the route the way that they did. I often stand there as I clip a bolt on the apron and am so happy it's there and think about standing there for a long time pounding on the FA.
This is part of why I like to climb in Yosemite and I wish people would respect the ethics of the place. NO not all the routes are done or have been done this way but your decision to rap bolt is a deveation from the local ethics.
Sam
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
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Jennie got it right a while ago.
There's a style question, and a rock alteration question. Ground up is probably better style, but may have worse impacts on the rock, and I think that outweighs the style points.
The alternative is not to do it at all, which might have been the best choice here. But we shouldn't let all those pin driving traddies off the hook either.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
|
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500 hahaha!!!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
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I've read all 500 posts in this thread, and figured it was about time a gym-climber weighed in...
Several times we've been told that people should "do the route and report back"
(or words to that effect). Yet I find it very ironic that in 500 posts we still haven't
heard from an FA-ist who has actually climbed the route. - from what I can tell.
Why knott?
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Thank you for your endlessly charming commentary, Bob. Your thoughtful points never fail to resonate with the discussion.
I'm a punk teenager who started climbing ~twenty months ago. Four of those months were in a gym, eight of those months were spent incapacitated by schoolwork or sprained ankles, and eight of those months have been outdoors doing trad with a bit of sport. I'm happy to admit I'm new to this.
I've never done anything with bolts + granite (chopped, drilled, etc.), but do have some experience with sandstone.
Even at the Red River Gorge, a champion area for gym climbers turned wannabe hardcore climbers, the majority of boltings tend to be on lead. This is a place rampant with ugly ethics: overchalked, bolted cracks, people bringing iPods hooked to radios to the crags, getting lowered through permanent anchors, etc. And most routes are easy to get to the top of, so bolting on rapell wouldn't be difficult. And yet, they don't tend to do it.
I guess I don't believe the "I did it for you, [something along the lines of you ungrateful little dick]" argument; I've never heard it used by someone who isn't completely delusional; I've often/always heard it used by people who are lying to themselves. Then again, I've also never heard it applied to rock climbing.
I don't agree with having a sense of entitlement to climb every rock out there. For one, I think we should leave rocks to future generations so they can open things up. For two, I understand wanting to climb it "Because it is there", but the famous person behind that quote couldn't descend Everest before he got up it.
There are routes where you have to descend to get to them (go down to get up), but Half Dome is obviously not an example of this.
I'm leaning toward the thought that this opens the door for people who just want to put up lines and want names in guidebooks and want recognition and fame but haven't put any time in to actually learn to respect the rock. I could rap-bolt a big wall, I'd think, without too much difficulty. Yeah, finding a line might be a pain in the ass, but if there's as much gold as there allegedly is on the South side of Half Dome, hell, why not?
(And the answer is, of course, out of respect for those who could open up a free line without my prior interference. They should be able to have the adventure first. If it goes free from above, and I merely want to climb it, why don't I rap it and place my own protection and then say I've climbed it, or toprope it from above?
It shouldn't be MY route just because I rapped down it before anyone else did. I didn't explore and really see what the rock was... I instead tried to conform it to my standards. But as the saying goes, you can't shorten the mile just so everyone can run it under four minutes.)
It doesn't matter to the people who just want to climb; they won't see the difference. It matters for that first ascent party that wants the adventure. If Sean, Doug, et al. wanted good climbs, there's plenty out there (of which they're well aware) that won't kill the joy of people who want to ascend in a pure way...
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
|
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Hardman... Doug's weighed in several times...
Ben fixed the lines and he weighed in. Ben has also told me Sean's working on getting an account so that he can weigh in (although forgive him, because the climbing weather in Yosemite is perfect this time of year).
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
|
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Systematically arguing for rhetoric and sophistry above wisdom certainly flourishes here.
Werner, I am a sophisticated and well educated middle school prinicpal but I don't have any idea what you're trying to say here. But, if this was intended as a jab at me, I'm coming up there and kicking your ass !!!!
Cracko
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
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I wish people would respect the ethics of the place.
Hmmm, ever climb those chipped routes on the Cookie? Fer gawd sakes they're classic...
You can find the stories on ST about Bridwell rap bolting same cliff, bleeding 'roids thru his painter's pants...iirc
A ho is a ho....rock don't care. But u seem to. Course the irony is the thread starter and other parties got caught all powerdrillin on the Cap. And it wasn't "just replacement"...
call'em "smethics"
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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I actually also heard a rumor that Bridwell used to place pitons where he thought good handholds would be so that the route could go free eventually: can anyone confirm or deny that?
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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don't go there, Dom....muahahahah...but while yer on the subject of pinning...heh
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Orion wrote
"I thought Yosemite had an ethic where that you climb from the ground up and place gear or bolts on lead, it's a traditional area. To do otherwise is against the grain of the area. Rap bolting exists in other places, go do it there and the community that you are trying to put up a route for who don't climb X routes will appreciate it."
You thought too soon. There are plenty of rap bolted routes in Yosemite, just smaller.
And some were put up by lycra wearing sport pansies like Ron Kauk who can barely climb 14b and has only been in Yosemite 3 decades. This is only a matter of scale were talking about, like it's OK to bang loose women but not Amish chicks.
Domingo wrote
"I don't agree with having a sense of entitlement to climb every rock out there. For one, I think we should leave rocks to future generations so they can open things up."
Actually there are plenty of people who could have just lead out the rest of the slab and created another death route. The fact is nobody is leaving rocks for future generations. Folk who want to climb rocks, climb em. Neither Robbins, nor Harding, nor Bridwell, nor anybody else was in the business of leaving rocks for future generations. They leave em because they're lazy, or not good enough, or busy with other rocks, or cause they were so busy climbing every line in sight that they didn't get around to places like Half Dome for the reasons Doug and Sean encountered.
Those future generations might wake up and find that if everyone climbed hard faces in the best possible style that there would be death routes everywhere and precious little for anyone to climb. (Because, for some reason, repeating the death routes of the past hasn't proved very popular, even among the finest of the newest, bold climbers) The "R" rated routes in the 5.9 league on the Apron barely get climbed.
I'd like to know what kind of climbs the people weighing in against this climb so heavily are spending their time on and where. How many are actually doing the life and death routes with any regularity?
Peace
Karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jim Erickson said it best in "On the Rocks"...most great climbs have been done by somewhat dubious means.
Every climbing area has its "Demons in the Closet" and Yosemite has it's fair share.
Karl...have you seen most Amish ladies??
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Well that's because every route on the Apron's a death route, R or otherwise.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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This thread is far from over......in fact, it's just getting started. First, this debate is taking place on a site where the average age is probably late forties. Is this truly representative of the greater "Climbing Community"??? Personally, I don't know cause I'm too damn old to have the energy to answer that question. I entered this "community" in the early seventies and was deeply influenced by the Robbins/Harding controversy. As a result, I never placed a pin for protection or an anchor until 1999 when I climbed my first El Cap route, Zodiac. I am well rooted in a style of minimal impact and firmly believe in the Trad ground up ethic. However, I have always had a place in my heart for Harding and his cavalier attitude towards climbing. Afterall, its a damn piece of rock!!! Sorta reminds of the ridiculous rules in the game of golf, i.e. you cannot move or improve your lie. Damit! who gives a sh#t if I move my ball an inch or "fluff" up my lie after discovering that my ball is lying in a pile of goose sh#t??
I respect those who strictly adhere to the rule, but for me it is just not a big deal. I guess the question is how do we find middle ground. I truly admire and respect Doug Robinson as a human being and therefore will give him the benefit of the doubt in an "ethics or style squabble". I think the real question, after 400 plus posts, is how do we find common ground, mutual respect, and move forward as a cohesive "community". Or, is that even possible ??
Respectfully,
Cracko
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Impaler
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Tar, you want to hear what the new guard thinks. Well, here it is. I highly respect the old school traditions of Yosemite Valley where I have learned to climb trad (it's my third season climbing in Yosemite) and think that ground up is definitely the way things should be done.
I read the article in R&I in January when it came out and was very impressed by it. It almost made me cry. Not only I was happy to learn about the history of all the proud lines on the south face (you don't really hear much about them anywhere for obvious reasons) but "Growing Up" instantly became something to aspire to. It made me want to become a better climber and get on it. Which I will do for sure in due course unless I die doing one of the "easier" museum climbs.
With that said I think the FA team did a stellar job creating a beautiful route that will get done. It will not change anything in the long run in terms of ethics or style - it was put up in the best reasonable style for that wall as addressed upthread. So, thanks Doug, Sean, and others involved! I know I'll enjoy climbing your route some time in the future.
By the way, I think this discussion is highly monopolized by the "old guard" who frequents this forum. I'm sure that lots of other people are happy that this route is now established that just don't post here. There is already enough routes in the valley that have been rusting away for dozens of years and don't look at all appealing. Every time I encounter manky museum climbs on the walls Yosemite I know that beautiful rock has been defaced for enjoyment by very few and I'm glad "Growing Up" didn't end up like that. I think that it's time to grow up and stop putting up museum routes. They are the ones that deface the rock and limit access of the future generations. History should be respected, but not necessarily repeated!
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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hmm is there a compressor in here somewhere?
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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Yo Domingo,
You live in El Portal right? Why dont you yell out your window and ask Sean a few questions about what went on up there on HD. See if he will give you a topo and you can post it up here. Who knows mabey he will take you on a tour of some of his other easy moss covered routes. Thanks Blair........
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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I'm actually out of El Portal for a bit, maybe a couple of months. Otherwise, I would ask him a few questions in person (at Sal's night... the only thing that ever happens in El Portal).
By the way, Karl, good point on the skeletons in the closet, but realistically, this is the most appropriate time for the peanut gallery to raise a fuss.
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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WHO IS SAL ?
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Gene
climber
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Why had the Growing Up route needed to be done NOW? I don't get it - my perspective is from YV history. With all due respect to the First Top Down party.
In 1962 Roper & Chouinard did the FA of the DNB with 100+ aid pins. Only three years later, Sacherer and Beck did the FFA.
Look at the Sea of Dreams: Bridwell placed 14 pin stacks rather than bust in a bolt. The 3 man team slept on it. The rurp belay - 5 rurps and a 1/4-incher. Bold. A bolt would have been easier.
After Robbins et al did the second ascent of the Nose, he opined the route may go in 5 days. Current time,please?
The Rostrum was once a Grade V aid route. It has since been free soloed before breakfast.
The 2nd ascent team of the East Face of the Column chopped, what? 22 of the 24 Harding bolts. Oh, shit! That's Astroman.
Wasn't it 12 years after the FA of the upper Spire that Wilts and Austin freed it?
Powell did the longest continuously difficult route on the 5.8 Arrowhead Arete.
My point is that the future is about a week or year away.
What the hell are my babies gonna look forward to if rap bolting "for the future" is condoned?
Gene
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Sal's Taco Wagon... the fastest colon cleanse you'll ever get.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Hardman, have you actually read any of my posts? I was Sean's partner. Jake Jones was there for a couple days. I went up the first arch with Sean, and when it got to about .14a (way past where so. belle goes out onto the face). We got shut down and came down. Went up the second arch, Harding's route, until right below the big bombay. Looked to be 5.14 for sure. We came down.
Went up the third arch, starting to get a little leary of climbing another dead end. After much awesome trad, at the end of the arch, we bolted, on lead a 5.11bish slippery dike, a little run, on lead. Most scared I've ever been belaying, for sure. Well, now we were out on the face, with numerous options available to us.
Do we follow the slight undulations and possible ribs left, or how about the ones in the middle. Should we link these little divots on the right of to that vertical rib over there and hope it goes somewhere?
Anyone who's been up there knows that the orange patina is the slickest rock on the planet. all it would take is ten continous feet of it and it would be over. So with much deliberation, we went down from the top. I'm glad we did. The line we wanted to take when we were underneath it, completely stopped after 500 feet. The barely there, but awesome line that went in, was very counterintuitive, and probably wouldn't have been even the third or fourth choice from below. But it is THE line, for sure.
Before any of the bolting of the upper wall, I went to work in T-Meadows.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Gene, nice examples. Why didn't those guys wait?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"First, this debate is taking place on a site where the average age is probably late forties. Is this truly representative of the greater "Climbing Community"???"
I promise you that if you reposted the very first post of this thread on RC.com, you'd get a completely different response. I've seen it in the past when the same ethics thread was posted on Supertopo and RC.com with it's wider, generally younger, generally Noober, crowd.
Not saying that's good or bad, but the future is on the way whether we like it or not.
Peace
Karl
I think it's really worth noting the difference between style and ethics, with ethic affecting the stone and style affecting the climbers. The intersection comes when folks feel like if a certain style is allowed, it will lead to more routes, which also affects the stone.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Thank you Karl, I respect that and I respect you !!!
Cracko
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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karl wrote: I think it's really worth noting the difference between style and ethics, with ethic affecting the stone and style affecting the climbers. The intersection comes when folks feel like if a certain style is allowed, it will lead to more routes, which also affects the stone.
Karl...first you have to say what is morally right or wrong.
Is it morally wrong to place a bolt on rappel in Yosemite...Numerous routes have rap placed bolts...My answer would be no.
Is it morally wrong to place a bolt in Yosemite or damage the rock with rurp's, pins, bashie, hooks, rivet and the such... like on numerous aid routes in Valley. Pitons and bolts have been and continue to be used in Yosemite to this day.
Again my answer would have to be no.
Ethics...a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values —often used in plural but singular or plural in construction bplural but sing or plural in constr : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group c: a guiding philosophy d: a consciousness of moral importance
So don't bring ethics or morals into the equation...these guy did nothing that hasn't been done before in the valley and accepted by locals.
It's all about style...period.
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Owlman
Social climber
Montucky
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jihad.
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Mike Ierien
Trad climber
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"I have no respect for what you did, and it makes me sick to think about, it is rape...plain and simple."
I suspect that women who have been RAPED would take offense to such a statement that compares what they have endured to a rock climb.
A little perspective may be in order.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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To those that think the climb is a travesty:
Do you also the Beth's climb meltdown http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=551416 is a travesty? Since it was worked on top rope and not a traditional ground up route. Or is it only if you place bolts on rappel that really crosses the line? Serious question.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Wildone - I did see your posts; I read them all. In your first post you wrote:
Go climb it. It's awaiting a second ascent. Report back here.
I just thought it was ironic that we have yet to hear from an FA-ist who has redpointed
the pitches––let alone climbed the route in a push––in light of your challenge above...
Apologies in advance if I'm mistaken - and you actually redpointed the pitches yourself.
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Nick
climber
portland, Oregon
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Geeze, you guys really have your knickers in a twist. It's only rock climbing.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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I haven't climbed the upper headwall, beyond the two traversing dike pitches, as that was where my involvement ended on the project due to work. I've seen it once on the preview, didn't place any bolts-that was Sean and Doug. I wish I could have helped, though. The corners below were stellar.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Since Bob keeps asking me to admit the obvious I will. I, Bruce, do not like the the style the FA team used to establish the upper pitches of the route Growing Up (AKA Dumbing Down) on Half Dome.
Now, let us return to the real discussion which is why did they choose to use that style and was it appropriate for a new route on Half Dome?
Bruce
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Kevin...nice post. Coming from someone who has been there...I completely understand.
Bruce...we have been discussing it...you just won't listen.
Doug explained his reasons...you refuse to see/accept them. That how I see it. So let's move on.
Your Dumbing Down comment is childish at best.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Karl...first you have to say what is morally right or wrong.
There is no right or wrong in morals. Morals either mesh or conflict with someone elses morals. Niether persons morals are more right or wrong than the other persons. You can have a concensus of morals that are aligned with your own, thats called a religion, and we all know there's only one correct one of those.............right?
Religions are a hot topic, and I'd guess this one goes 700.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Thanks Domingo, Orion, Impaler, and other younger climbers who posted up.
I've done a good number of difficult, necky, on site ground up first ascents using bolts.
I also have experience constructing top-down sport routes.
I've made it clear that my preference is for trad climbing, having been on gobs of it, primarily toting the sharp end in Tuolumne, and on Middle Cathedral on those routes that Warbler mentions. So this gives me some direct experience upon which to base a relevant opinion.
As it turns out I am dead on neutral with this topic: for me this is much like the evolution of art. We went from figurative painting to the Expressionists. People were outraged with that, because those artists, they didn't paint objects but they painted light. Then came Cubism which was a big departure; as the works began to include concepts of paradox, ambivalence, contradiction and so forth, sometimes producing what were thought to be grotesque images. Then came the Abstract Expressionists whose products were often the outcome of a dialogue and became an expressive medium of ideas alone: a total departure from the representation of things you would see out in the world. These transitions were frequently pretty rough in terms of acceptance by the artistic community. Many casual appreciators of art are still outraged by modern Art. This analogy with the development of art may be seen as a defense of top-down route construction.
In support of ground up traditional climbing Bachar once quoted the words: "If it's art, it's not for everybody; and if it's for everybody, it's not art". Apologies if I didn't get that quite right. This was used to indicate a certain degree of exclusivity and depth available only to those willing to do the work. At the time I thought it quite apt and I still do to this day. Oddly, as well as that works in support of ground up on-site climbing, it also applies to Modern Art. So the prism allows the light to flow from many directions
My first point is: art changes, and my second is, I am primarily interested in expressing my opinion, my vision, as a prime actor, through actions, and not so much through words and ideas.
So, I want to hear more from younger climbers who may be lurking. Because, I am well beyond my stride; I can no longer hold the steering wheel of a car enough to drive more than an hour. Nobody here is saving any stone for me as a canvas to express my engagement with risk while savoring the rapture of the steep. Conversely nobody is setting anything up from the top down, so that I may express elegant moves unfettered with the concerns of extreme risk.
We can't truly hear from future generations, but we can hear from those younger aspirants who are here now, right at the doorstep, whose dreams are beginning to stir, for this is their canvas, their clay, their stone.
Any more takers?
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Sean Jones
climber
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Hello everyone in the climbing world. A couple days ago, a friend called me and told me about this site and all that's going on. Until then, I didn't even know it existed. I'm amazed at how much spare time so many people have. Just imagine if we all put this much time and energy together and aimed that at a real problem in our world. One thing I've learned in life and hugely through marriage, is to think before I speak. Or at least to try to. That's why I haven't responded until now. You may have noticed that I did not use a nick name to post on this site. I have no problem with who I am. Some people who have posted on this site (throwing some pretty major blows my way), actually live in my home town yet hide behind a nick name. Next Thursday I will be at Sal's tacos and welcome you to tell me what you think in person. This is not a threat in any way. I'm a very nice person and would love to talk. That's another key lesson I've learned through marriage, TALK. I could sit here all night and write but have three kids to put to bed and lots of work tomarrow like always. One thing I really want to start with or better said, clear up. Doug didn't do anything to Half Dome or anyone in the climbing world. Doug had a vision of a movie and I had a part in that. I spent 4 1/2 months up there and had 4 different climbing partners help me througout that time. Doug helped fund us. I called all the shots on everything that happened up there. Please stop hammering on Doug period. The fact that his name is even on this post show just how little anyone really knows. As for me, I've been climbing for 20 years now and doing first ascents the entire time. I've done routes in every possible style except chipping and glueing. I've done multiple big routes ground up. Doing huge runouts, drilling on lead, on stance, (no hooks) and redpointing or shall I say onsighting all pitches in a day. I dispise the word PROUD being attatched to rock climbing. But have to admit to feeling very good about the way those routes went in. It was FUN. Another key word there and the one word I do like to see attatched to rock climbing most. After doing these routes, without a story or photos or any spray, I would march back out, sometimes deep into the backcountry with thousands of feet of line and retro bolt my own lines as to leave behind good climbable routes for everyone else to enjoy. Or shall I say almost everyone else ? I have huge respect for the people who have done the big scary routes in our world. I could just as easily sit here and bash them for Taking them from the majority of the rest of us and leaving them behind as deadly and poorly bolted. Take Karma for instance. At only 5.11d AO, it sits unrepeated for 20 years. 180 1/4 inch buttonheads lay rusting away on a very beautiful line. Yet noone climbs it. I didn't want my line to become litter up the back side of 1/2 dome. There's tons of that below the cables already. Tons of which we cleaned up on many of our trips out of there. If it sounds like I'm trying to defend mysel, I'm not. I knew this would be an issue to many. In the past people left there bold statements on the back side of 1/2 dome. This was my bold statement. To put up the most amazing and climable route on the face. A route that will actually get climbed by more than just a handfull of only the best climbers. And to install protection that wasn't shitty the day it went in. My son is 6 years old now and has been climbing and loving it for 5 of those years. He's been watching Chris Sharma lots on vidios lately and idolizes him. That's a good thing to me. As human nature kiks in, he's been asking me lots of questions like, Dad, who's the best climber in the world ? Dad, are you the best climber in the world ? the strongest climber in the world ? Dad, will I be the best climber in the world ? I've seen alot of things through climbing in 20 years. Lots of good and lots quite ugly. My response to him, M'so, why do you climb ? because I like it and it makes me feel good dad. M'so, are you a happy climber that's nice to other people ? Of coarse dad. Then you're one of many best climbers in the world already M'so.
What is climbing anyways ?
Why do we climb ?
What can we learn from this climbing ?
The way I see it, The biggest mountains in our world aren't really mountains at all.
Maybe we should start climbing them.
Peace,
Sean Jones.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tar wrote: So, I want to hear more from younger climbers who may be lurking. Because, I am well beyond my stride; I can no longer hold the steering wheel of a car enough to drive more than an hour. Nobody here is saving any stone for me as a canvas to express my engagement with risk while savoring the rapture of the steep. Conversely nobody is setting anything up from the top down, so that I may express elegant moves unfettered with the concerns of extreme risk.
I'm not young Roy but I'll respond anyway... your post above almost bought a tear to my eye.
Sorry that you are dealing with your health issues and really wish you the best. Reading the above really makes me realize how wonderful I have it when it comes to climbing and that I still have my health to climb and satisfy my cravings for the sport that I still love to do after all these years. Hope it turns around for you and if there anything I can do to help let me know.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Tarbuster, a great post. I'm 24, so on this site I guess this makes me younger so Ill put my two cents in.
Ethics, it seems, are generally consistent within a crag or climbing area and are established by the individuals who develop an area. The majority of arguments arise because of inconsistencies within an area in the establishment of new routes, i.e. rap bolting in a area which has a tradition of ground up style. In the recent past we have "the path" sent by trotter as well as "china doll" sent by patz. Both are examples of a route being sent in different style and thus comes in conflict.
I think what gets everyones panties in a bunch is that when this inconsistency occurs one person is inflicting their style and ethics on other people and I believe this is a fare criticism. So what I say is that ethics/style should be dependent on location and the local ethics should be followed. Just one more opinion.
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Dusty
Trad climber
up & down highway 99
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Hey Sean,
Thanks for a thoughtful and intelligent post. I've done lots of your routes and always been impressed... Gates of Delirium in particular is bad-ass!!
Anyway, I think it's natural people would have strong opinions about a new route like this on Half Dome in a place like Yosemite, where everyone seems to feel a sense of ownership or stewardship or whatever. As for me, I haven't done your route yet obviously but am sure I will git up on soon, at least the first 8 or 9 (?) pitches of crack climbing before the business begins... probably rap around then.
I personally probably wouldn't have had the chutzpah or cajones or whatever to equip a free route up 12+ or 13 slab moves, especially on rappel, but maybe that's just because I can't climb slab that hard or I didn't have your "vision" and what not. I don't know maybe I would have reservations about rap bolting on Half Dome too, although I've rap-cleaned and bolted other scrappy little crags in various places... but they shore ain't Half Dome. In any case, my opinion don't mean a whole lot aside from making my entry into the community "dialogue" or whatever. You made your choices up there and I can respect that... don't know you personally, but I do know your routes and some of your friends in el P and they have nothing but good things to say about you. In any case I look forward to checking out all those 12a crack pitches and the 11b slab... sounds rad!
I don't know, maybe the route would have gotten popular and not been neglected as you feared, even if it didn't have finishing pitches out of the arch? If you placed good SS bolts I'm sure they would have lasted longer than most of the other mank up there regardless. Maybe it would have been better to let the slab pitches "wait" for a ground-up ascent? Whatever, it's all conjecture and opinion at this point really... hypothetical and sort of interesting, but not a lot of bearing on reality or the route you chose to create.
On another important note, sounds like Karma could use a re-equipping job!! Never been repeated, really?? Crazy... glad I never got on it in it's current condition in that case I guess!! Always been curious about that one...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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I have no respect for what you did, and it makes me sick to think about...
I saw a route called Machine Gun. Somebody cut down a tree to make that go.
Just think, trees are living things.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob let's try another tact as you aren't getting it - my objections have nothing whatsoever to do with 'emotions' and everything to do with the growth, impact, crowding, and access problems which can be directly attributable to the combination of gyms and sport climbing - it's the unavoidable and undeniable truth of the "bolt it and they will come" aspect of it if you will. The 'philosophical' (or 'judgmental' as DR says) foundation of my opinions is based entirly on my clearly old-school belief in climbing being about self-reliance and self-responsibility, i.e. if you can't get up a rock on your own, you probably shouldn't be on it.
As for not buying my 'doomsday' scenario? Well, now that truly is judgment rooted in the eye of the beholder - what isn't debatable is the rate bolts are flying. I can only speak for here, but there's been a steady buzz of drills marching out of PDX up both sides of the Gorge to a ring around Mt. Hood and on to Bend for several years now with no sign of it letting up anytime soon. How about on the Front Range there, say heading south of Denver down the I-25 corridor to Taos? From the look of it, it's going to be a nice weekend down your way - care to guess how many bolts might be going in from Denver to Taos over the course of it? Me, I'm guessing it'll be a busy weekend.
Now, you may think that's a thing of beauty, but I don't happen to share your perspective - I find it relentless and insatiable, though, maybe not for the reasons you think (read on). And is that a bad in and of itself? Clearly no. Where the problem comes in (for me), and where it intersects this discussion of Growing Up, is in the [new] notions of 'developers', 'development', and 'community service' - and of 'safety' and 'quality' (and at what price). And that problem is vastly compounded a climbing demographic 80-85% of which has been established and is maintained purely on bolting alone.
Where that intersects with Sean, Doug, and Growing Up in my mind is the notion of 'development' as a rationale. And the problem is, to what standards? In most cases the primary question is to what level of 'spice', 'risk', or 'safety'. It doesn't so much matter how 'good' this particular route is so much as it establishing the precedent that anyone can make that call. No one is arguing these guys aren't stellar climbers, or that they didn't do the best possible job once they made their call.
But as Couchmaster asks, what about a clip-up next to Snake Dike with bolts 10[, 12, 15, 20] feet apart established top down? On what basis could you possibly defend objecting to such a route if the FA's rationale was to leave a 'safe', fun route up that section of stone without the clearly 'dangerous' runouts on Snake Dike? It's not like they're retro-bolting Snake Dike. And they'd likely say if you want to take that type of risk just hop on Snake Dike. But Snake Dike is clearly not for all of today's climbers, and legions of them who aren't prepared for those runouts have been and are being excluded from climbing that face. Ditto for a wrunged via ferrata on the other side of Snake Dike. Again, the problem for me isn't the route so much as the rationale used to put it up and the assumption that 'shared' standards of 'quality' and 'risk' can somehow be policed and maintained at a high-level after such a precedent is established.
You think such concerns are unfounded and irrational - I would have said the same thing had I not seen the 'progress' of climbing with my own eyes the last several decades. For every year the young 'stars' of these recent generations push climbing to ever more dizzying heights, the breadth - the number, and percentage - of 'climbers' who will never climb harder than sport 5.9-10 and never more than a few feet out from the last bolt swells to ever greater numbers, and ever more risk-averse. That 'progress' - one of an ever growing base of 'climbers' for whom climbing is simply another risk-free entertainment option - works against climbing in many subtle and not so subtle ways in my opinion.
We have inadvertantly made climbing not just 'safe' - but are raising generations who not only think climbing 'should' be safe - but do and will increasingly demand that it actually be 'made' safe. And having planted that seed, along with successfully embedding climbing into the popular culture via our media, birthday parties, etc., we are breeding a 'new age'. It's a new age alright, but one where climbing itself is merely an [entertainment] entitlement on one hand and where 'safe climbing' is both a right and an imperative on the other. Sorry, I just don't believe this is simply my imagination, or that it's a static phenomena, it has been a steadily growing and observable trend with no end in sight.
Everyone here, on both sides of this debate, are 'elite' climbers on a statistical basis. I'm simply suggesting that while we quibble over the merits and attributes of a climb only a small fraction of us 'elites' will ever climb, something larger, longer-term, and sad is happening as climbing is absorbed and assimilated into our society and popular culture - we aren't raising it to our level, it's remaking 'climbing' to suite its own wider needs. Are we still a decade or two out from retro-bolting classics and an influx of via ferratas on public lands and your local crag? Sure (we can hope), but three decades of observing climbing's 'progress' leaves me in no doubt that's exactly where this train is headed.
And last, with specific regard to Growing Up - I believe it did leap from a matter of style to one of ethics (or morality if you insist), doing so when the route they hoped to leave behind simply didn't pan out. At that point they made ethical, as well as a style decsions. My sole objection to that is the precedent its now set for others who may well not share their skills and experience and happen to have a vision of a very different climb in mind. Only time will tell - and call me crazy - but I hear a train whistle blowing in the distance and am in no hurry to hasten its enevitable arrival.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Thanks for posting, Sean.
Kind of an out-of-control discussion for your first intro to supertopo - sorry about that!
How about one question that is hopefully neutral and simple enough to answer:
Is there going to be a topo released for this route, or do you feel that the route description in Doug's article is about right for people to go up and do the route?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sean, thanks for joining the "conversation". I respect you and your partners for participating in a civil way. This was originally an intelligent conversation. It got away from us for about 60 posts there, but the "intelligent" part seems to be back.
Once again Tarman, you have said it about as well as it can be said. You have put words to thoughts in my head. Thanks.
I have always prided myself on my ability to participate in a conversation, discussion or debate rather than an argument. The difference to me is that in a discussion, the parties actually listen to one another and hear what the other is saying. In an argument, that doesn't happen. I may be called wishy-washy, but I have the ability to change my mind. I have the ability to adapt to a new viewpoint. I even saved my most long winded post until it was more fully formed in my mind!!
In this case even the "new generation" is split over whether this is a great thing or not.
I too stick to the idea that ground up is preferable. Even Doug and Sean appear to have the same basic concept, it just wasn't going to work out for this new route.
I would never have supported chopping this or other routes anyway. I always hated the idea that RR thought he was the brain police of El Cap back in the day and had the audacity to attempt removing the Dawn Wall. I have always basically wanted to be left to climb the way I saw fit, myself and my partner. In that sense I say let this climb live, what's done is done. I never questioned Sean and Doug as people or climbers either. It just takes a lot of effort and heart to put up anything that is pitch after pitch of 11 and 12. I still have the feeling that Sean and Doug support this decision because it's their baby. They feel that their motives and vision were pure and well meaning, but I doubt that sentiment extends to any and all rap bolting on SFHD. Am I right guys? That's why I asked your opinion about what you view as unacceptable. Maybe it's too slippery for you to address. I do think it might further the conversation for you to at least express what you feel is good vs not good.
For example, I am no longer a 5.12 climber, but I'm still capable and I'd like to have a route on SFHD too. What if I built a route from the top down with bolt ladders linking up everything harder than say 5.9? Or is it only O.K. for 5.12 climbers to build routes like this? It would be built in an acceptable rap bolt style and there would be plenty of good protection for the hard stretches where people could free more than I did. DOUG, SEAN, I'm asking you a very specific question. If this is cool then maybe I'll get a route on SFHD after all.
But make no mistake, I also believe much of what Healyje is saying about "the Future". I too have seen it happening. There are 5.6 face routes at Smith Rocks now with bolts no more than 8-10 feet apart in places. Not only that, but just last spring I watched a large group of the "new generation", about 10 of them as a matter of fact hangdogging, tensioning, clipping a bolt on the face route next to them to help them achieve the next bolt on the 5.9 route they were working. It took five of them to lead the thing. There wasn't one decent set of balls between them. Back in the day, I wouldn't have been caught dead hanging on that route. If I didn't get it on my second try, I would have stepped back to 5.7 and 5.8 until I was ready for another go. The whole idea that there was some sporting "way" to go about this thing was foreign to them. They were gang banging the thing, no doubt about it. These guys/gals were like the keystone cops, almost to the point of shoulder stands and all.
So my reservations are not about Sean and his partners or this route that I will never get on at all. My reservations are based totally on opening the door to what I have seen with my own eyes at other climbing areas. Pointless really, since the door is already open.
Does this mean that I can't find plenty of places to go and enjoy my climbing in the way I see fit? No. Does this mean that new climbers don't have the right to learn about climbing in a manner that won't cripple them? No. But, in the way back machine we called it toproping. Leading was a different game all together. It definitely was not cool to go out and spend the day dangling on something that was above your level.
My partner and I recently did an hour approach to get on an easy route that was "away from it all". When Smith Rocks climbers first started seriously hanging out in the valley, they called us the "approach masters" because of our willingness to go far to get the route that we wanted. Luckily, I still have the legs to do it with.
Healyje, the train is already here. It's just going to park forever and get bigger and louder.
Call me old fashioned, call me wishy washy, whatever.
"The wheel is turning and you can't slow down. You can't let go and you can't hold on. You can't go back and you can't stand still. If the thunder don't get you then the lightning will."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I hope everyone saw Kevin's Post (warbler) on the previous page because it was outstanding. as well as Tarbuster's post.
Survival wrote
"Sean, thanks for joining the "conversation". I respect you and your partners for participating in a civil way."
Welcome to Sean, and I agree with Survival here. When the community is hashing out these kind of issues. Some respect in the dialogs keeps the possibility of communication alive.
For folks who are worried about a rap bolted 5.8 or 5.9 near Snake Dike. Relax, the perceived enemies of the future could drill it ground up at that level, or certainly run-out the pitch and fill in the bolts following it.
It would cost them hundreds of dollars and weeks of hand-drilling and miles of hiking, so I wouldn't fear that they'll be dozens of routes.
But the routes WILL appear cause climbers, unlike me, aren't always content to follow the routes of others, particularly when they are run-out 1.4 in nightmares. (props to shaggy and others for fixing some of those with bigger bolts)
Still, sticking up for the little guy, why is it OK for the 5.12s and 5.13 going up, EVEN in Tuolumne, to have bolts every 10 feet or closer, but a route for the average climber in Yosemite at 5.9 is supposed to keep em 50 feet apart?
The lines on Snake Dike go for HOURS. I, blaspheming again, would welcome this feared route and think the stone is big enough that the 5.13 climber don't need to monopolize the 5.9 terrain as well as the 5.12 terrain.
I'd like to point out again that, since the FA teams says the slab part of the line was really inobvious, like the fourth choice they would have made ground up, that the ground up proud finish variation is still there for somebody to make
They could call it "Smacking Down" if they felt like it.
Peace
Karl
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Once again from the side lines, I too both appreciate the level of "dialogue" which is being written by Healyje, Survival, Warbler, Karl, and others.
That DR and Sean have the balls to stand by their decision and to open themselves up on this thread is admirable as well.
Thanks guys.
I am keen too however to hear their responses to Survival's questions.
I assume DR and Sean knew these kinds of questions were coming anyway.
And, for what its worth, true understanding and positive action comes from the opening up of the heart.
Cheers,
DD
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Owlman
Social climber
Montucky
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"This is really my last post on this thread"
Thanks to Doug, Sean, Wildone, et al., for graciously reacting to our comments, teases, fears, some anger, and probing.
Thanks for being so open, too, and taking time to tell us where you at.
I've been up the RNWF, Tis-sa-ack, Snake Dyke.
That rock has made me laugh, cry, puke, roar.
To me, the Dome is alive, something unique, and I think we should be very respectful up there, set a high example for others to follow.
I'm glad we've had a chance to discuss our methods up there, and hope we all reflect on the thoughts and feelings that the community expressed.
I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings. I don't really think Doug's rationale was lame. Hell, it's a free country. I'll always see you as a leader and muse. Your writing and actions were part of my initial feeling that climbing was more than sport, more a meditation of movement.
Thanks, Doug.
Abrazos.
-Dave Willey
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Coz, lay it on the line. Did you ever rap bolt?
(Even money says he'll take the 5th.)
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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20 year old bolts that haven't been replaced and a vehement FA'st. What we have is a museum climb!
All kidding aside... interesting point. Karma will be climbed, if the B-Y was 5 miles uphill I don't think it would have near as many ascents.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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DMT has it functionally correct, it's up to the team on the climb. Community influence comes long before, in setting the acceptable style for the climbing area. Sean Jones has authored many routes in the Valley over 20 years. Most, if not all, of those routes are largely unknown to the greater climbing community as information is scarce. There are climbers who have been on Sean Jones routes, or near those routes, who have commented on them. Sean Jones' style is the result of being in the Valley and putting up those routes. His new route on SFHD is the culmination of this work, and now a very notable issue in Valley climbing.
Why is style an issue? well the number of lines to climb is finite, even in the Valley. Most of the STForum readers believe that there is no limit to climbing difficulty, so let's suppose that is true for the purpose of argument. The issue then becomes what should be done now in a style which does not meet the historical consensus of what constitutes the "best style" in Valley climbing. This may seem abstract, and the process of defining the "best style" is indirect and murky, but actually few would debate that the "best style" FA in the Valley is ground up, no on-route preview, minimal bolting (and bolted from stance), minimal impact on the environment of the route. While many routes, and even some now "classic" routes have been authored with less-than "best style" the ideal is what a Valley FA team has in mind on every route they conceive.
By doing a route in less-than "best style," the FA team takes something away from future climbers, climbers who will be better, more capable, perhaps even bolder than the earlier generations. Once the route has been done it is difficult to "undo" it, especially if it is a great line which attracts more climbers to follow.
The SFHD is the location of many bold attempts to find classic lines on a compelling stretch of granite. While we can say the R/X routes are inaccessible to most of the existing group of climbers, we don't know what the future generations might do on that wall. I am not afraid that this wall will be grid bolted, and this single route is unlikely to be the demise of climbing on the SFHD, but it does deny the future generation an opportunity to figure out how to put a route up in the "best style" on that line.
Ultimately, the thinking process that leads to the justification: "it's such a good line it has to be done," is hugely selfish when the line is forced by technique less-than "best style." The selfishness stretches from the individuals, to the local community to the generation. Sometimes the line is so good that it has to be done, and so the ends justify the means.
But who are we to decide what future climbers will be able and willing to do?
I am optimistic that they would find a way to climb that, and other lines in the "best style." And so when I look at FA lines, I think to myself that I have to be honest enough to back off if I have to resort to less-than "best style" tactics. Someone else better than me will come along and do that line some other day, and it will be a fantastic climb because of the collective vision of what a climb should be in the Valley.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Warbler wrote
"A lot of guys are calling bullsh#t on Doug's claim that they did the route for other climbers, or with other climbers in mind. I probably would have done the same when I was around twenty, and doing new face routes in the Valley. It was a small, exclusive group back then, and in retrospect, we were doing the routes with other climbers in mind too, but in a different way - one reason we pushed the runouts was to challenge our peers. "
Rap-bolted route or ground up testpiece, it's true that ego can often play a huge role.
Why don't those bold routes get repeated these days? (except for a few) cause there's no real glory in it.
The guys who put them up got glory and a place at the table with the other hardmen. Maybe, if you're young, that's worth risking your life over. (particularly if you have 5.13+ potential and you're climbing 5.10)
Then they got repeated, due to the buzz and "second ascent" status, plus then you could be part of that same elite crowd.
Now, nobody gets laid for climbing 5.10R/X. Low angle face ain't popular and so it's not worth risking your life over.
I'm one of the few who like lower angle long faces, cause it's meditative and cause I don't have big guns for super pumpy stuff. I used to do the 5.10 R/X cause I had to to get on the stone. Now I'll only do the super run-out stuff if it's well below my limit.
People still go do BY to show the world they have the balls, (once they climb 5.13 already) but if the route doesn't have "Show appeal" (like Potter doing Southern Belle) it sits empty and will continue to sit empty (unless slab comes back into smackdown fashion someday)
I don't think this route opens the door to Rap-Bolting anymore that Cosgrove and Smith's Muir Epic opened up the door to power drilling (which would be much more dangerous to the park resource since people are so lazy)
Perhaps it's good that both acts got a ration at the time to keep a hurdle in place so things move slowly.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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DMT wrote
"The previous generations didn't exactly respect their forefathers either. "
Meet the new crew, same as the old crew.
or
New ways to walk to school for 3 miles in the snow
Peace
Karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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This thread is compelling to me because I am a staunch ground-up proponent,
yet I can understand the motivation behind Growing Up. It has forced me
take a good look at my belief.
For those against the style, there are two points that keep their argument alive:
1) This opens the door for others to rap bolt.
coz: "I thought if I don't say something, all the great lines will be rap drilled. "
2) It takes away the possibility for somebody to experience the thrill of the FA lead.
coz: "Daddy why did you steal my future?"
On the second argument: There are scores of slab routes that I have the
technical ability to climb, yet the FA teams stole my chances of doing those
by their style. They effectively made acres of climbable rock off limits to me,
they stole it from me and from hundreds of climbers, now and into the future.
Sure, there will be a few who sack up and send the lines. But it's been
proven, those climbers are few and far between. That style has a "Me Now,
forget those later" attitude so strong, that you simply cannot say
"Why did you steal my future."
This makes the first argument all the more important, the fear that all
the routes will be rap bolted into PG mundaneness. Routes engineered
to fit the lowest common denominator.
This is a real fear, and I've seen the gym attitude pervade most of the
new climbing generation.
The question then, does *this* route endorse top-down bolting by the masses?
I think no more than Peace on the sacred Medlicott (with Kauk-sized posters),
or the new route on Fairview that splits other proud ground-up lines.
There's no doubt for me, rap-bolting is a bad disease. But to single this route
out, one that has ground-up 5.13 pitches, seems off.
BTW, there is a third argument, which is that this route will open the
door to the gov't privatizing our open lands and charging for Via Ferratas.
Honestly, if this route were onsight soloed [instead of being rap bolted],
I strongly doubt it would make a difference.
[Edit: I do believe that some routes can be reasonably equipped (non-X rated) from the bottom, and rap bolting these
lines does in fact steal the best the route has to offer. Fine line. Here, upon inspection, the FA team realized the
upper wall could not be reasonably equipped [using ground-up tactics,] hence this discussion.]
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I don't think that the ideal "best style" has changed, it has become a question of "what is acceptable style." The idea that the "best style" is unacceptable because it is unsafe is used to justify less-than "best style" to make the climb acceptably safe.
What is safe and what is not is most certainly dependent on the skills, knowledge and ability of the climbers doing the climb.
The "best style" is an ideal, and one we always wish to reach, I think that is true for every climber. What we are willing to accept short of the "best style" is a matter of debate. If Growing Up had been done in "best style" we wouldn't have 500+ posts to this thread.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe...I do get it. And have gotten it for a long time. My climbing isn't one dimensional like your is and in fact instead of being part of the problem I'm actually doing something. I helped establish a few climbing areas that have become some what popular. I worked with land owners and the BLM from the start and help create a relationship that help make these areas a model when speaking of climbers and land managers working together. I was the Colorado BLM state volunteer of year 1992 and quite proud of the work I have done.
You posted in another thread that If i was up to you ALL BOLTS would be removed. You my friend are an extremist on this matter and such ....can't argue in a rational way. Beware the Future...it is here and your stagnant way of thinking does nothing to help...only divide.
Sean & Doug have weight in...and in a most reasonable matter and I would have no problem hanging out and climbing with them. They have been called names and accuse of rape in this thread. Some people showed their true colors in this thread and Sean and Doug's colors appeal to me much more. Sean from his post seems to be a great father and husband and like most of us is trying to have some adventure and at the same time keep his family healthy and safe. I admire that much more as I have through my whole climbing career been with the same woman and together we raise three wonderful children, we have some adventure and do what is right for our family.
You don't agree with the style they used... (and the sad part about that is that they more than likely they did less damage to the rock by doing the upper pitches top down than ground up) fine...the sun will rise and tomorrow you can go climb in any style you choose.
Isn't life great?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Before my tumble into proletariat mediocrity I was an ethical purist along the mind set described by Jim Erickson's concepts of tainting. From my moral highgound I was outspokenly disdainfull of anyone standing on any less of an ethical pedestal. Carefull all the fall from on high can leave quite a mark. As the eras changed the climbing community had seen the future of iron-mongery and collectively embraced and advocated the more environmentally sensitive practice of "clean and free" climbing. In light of the current controversy the irony that it was DR who helped instigate that paradigm shift has not been lost on a great many ST grey beards.
But times and tactics and yes ethics change whether we like it or not.
Most of the aspirants of those earlier days were vehemently anti bolting of any kind and espoused the standard that if it needed a bolt it shouldn't be done until someone better could do it properly. But bolting came to be excepted as a way to open otherwise unassailable stone. Even drilling from hooks once seriously frowned on became OK. Eventually power drills, rap bolting and a full lexicon of other past taints became the norms of the day. Right or wrong didn't matter to the now generation it was what they did. It was only when rampant grid bolting became too prevelant that the larger community of climbers spoke up in concern for the environment. Just as they recently have regarding the compaction of soil, trampling of ground vegetation and stashing of rotting pads that popular bouldering sites have experienced. My point is that it has been environmental concerns that have motivated change in the collective climbing 'scene' not style, ethics or morals. Most all of the 'stylistic' changes that have occured in climbing over the years have been met with great resistance including cheats like chalk, sticky rubber shoes and camming units. But look where we are today. Everyone chooses their ethics and style of ascent. It really is their business. But when the environment starts degrading it is time for the larger community to speak up.
My personal thoughts about "growing up" are that it is likely a great route. But that most of us would have been more pleased and impressed by a fully ground up ascent. Be that as it may my chief concern is still conservation of the medium and protection of the environment. Sean and Doug's approach may be a frightening precedent in the minds of many. But it will likely prove to have been the most sensitive least damaging approach to establishing a route such as this. That in my fetid mind carries a lot of weight. There is a whole lot of stone out their and the future will bring what it does regardless of how hard we drag our heels. I am not promoting top down rap bolting I am advocating for carefull use of the land. We have enough eyesores of ego and arrogance. Hopefully future generations will be inspired to be the best stewards of the resource while crafting new adventures.
With all due respect Phil Broscovak
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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I must have been sleepin' or trippin' or something.
I don't recall much of any outcry against sticky rubber or cams for that matter. Clean, versatile, removable...what's to hate?
Philo, your thought about falling off a pedestal, I like that.
Los Lobos says: The trouble with being in low places, is that you always have to look up. The trouble with being in high places, is that when you fall it's a long way down....
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Hey Sean – Welcome. And thanks for reminding us to have fun. Need more of that here. And for the reminder that this is a big world with bigger problems to chew on.
There’s a bit of shifting going on. I hear listening. Fattrad"s first post this morning had more questions than answers. Cool!
And my most humble thanks for this zinger from Delhi Dog: true understanding and positive action comes from opening up the heart.
As to routes next to Snake Dike, they’re already there, on both sides. Left to right:
• Dome Polishers, 5.9**R (Tucker Tech, Steve Ortner 1988)
• The Deuceldike 5.9*R (Charles Cole, Rusty Reno, John Middendorf 4-85)
• Snake Dike
• Eye in the Sky 5.10b*R (Mark Spencer, Shirley Spencer, Dan Abbot and David Abbot 4-85)
• Snake Dance 5.9+*R (Claude Fiddler, Bob Jones 1973)
Each of them earned quality stars. Yep, good rock up there. Each was put up from the ground. All bolts drilled on stance and a fair bit of natural pro in small corners too. I once swung over to Eye in the Sky while filming on Snake Dike and saw some fine rock I’d like to climb.
So the answer to your question is, nobody needed to rap bolt to put up mouth-watering routes next to the Snake Dike. We’d all agree they were done in the best possible style.
I know that doesn’t answer the other half of your question, the baiting part. But some of my point is that your straw dogs are whimpering up the wrong tree. Questions like that, the hypothetical ones, always make me uncomfortable because they aren’t very real. I like climbing because it’s so real, about our heartful selves responding to the flinty terrain before us. Facing up to what we find. I tend to respond better to true questions posed by the real stone.
Would I climb a 5.9/5.10 route that goes all the way up the South Face? You bet! Walking the base of the wall, if I’d found such a line --even the beginnings of one -- I would have jumped on it and drilled it ground-up. Probably run it out a bit too. I like it sporty, and drilling is plain hard work.
But it seems there isn’t any such line. Once you turn the corner from the Snake Dike wall onto the South Face, every line so far is at least 5.11+R. And once you go to the right of Cataclysmic Megasheer everything so far is an rated-X death route, according to the few climbers who’ve actually been on them. It seems that you can’t even drill from hooks up there. I won’t repeat the rest of the rationale, but I think you can see the reality of the stone closing in toward what Sean decided and I helped do.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Echo: Retrobolting is the true scourge. I think that is where the line has to be drawn.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Nothing to hate Survival they were just considered cheats.
And it didn't take long for the masses to accept them either.
And DaftRat why won't you get it through your head that there was NO movie or media pagentry. Just a substantial new route.
Unlike the deliberate media circus Potter managed for all of 45 feet of Utah state icon. Yes they got good pics but so did the other routes in the mag spread is that so bad. As usual you latch on like a Pit Bull to any desireable chunk of misinformation and shake away. Just like your continued assertion that we should put boots on the ground in Muslim countries just like Teddy did in Morocco. Except he never did other than in Hollywood. Wet dream on and wag the dog boy. Oh and good luck making the hike for your chop fest. Oh yeah I forgot you can call in air support.
Sorry I couldn't help myself.
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WBraun
climber
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One of the all time great threads discussing this controversial subject matter, a special thanks goes to all those who made it so. Thanks to Bob D' for keeping it on track.
And special thanks go to DR, Sean and wildone for your sober responses. DR you are a special person indeed.
Although I'm not to hot for rapping down something to rap bolt (just feels weird to me), just my own personal feelings.
I've actually supported and encouraged Ron Kauk when he first wanted to do this in Yosemite despite the rest of the gang hating him for that. I told him that of anyone to introduce rap bolting it would be him as he has the strength and soul to be able to thwart the oncoming tidal wave of everything that goes along with going against the grain in the last baston church of traditional climbing in Yosemite.
It was very painful for me to see friends hating each other over this for I truly loved them all.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Wonder how many folks actually read Robinson's article. It's an excellent read - first rate in my book.
JL
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scuffy b
climber
up the coast from Woodson
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Coz thinks 98% of the climbers on this Forum are down on
DR's and Sean's sh#t.
1) there are many climbers on this forum who have not touched
this thread
2) there are only a few climbers who have posted an opinion of
this climb and the style of its establishment
3) opinions may not be relevant
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I think everyone agrees that the best style is on-sight and ground up. This ideal frequently conflicts with common sense, which often calls for pre-inspection, top-rope rehearsal and pre-placement of gear and even rap-bolting. All of this has been accepted, if uneasily, in the valley for a long time.
It seems to me these guys made a considered decision that (i) the face does not need another x-rated route, (ii) the line would basically be impossible to find ground up and (iii) the resulting climb was of such high quality that it was worth the trouble of putting up and the hassle that the rap-bolting issue was sure to bring.
Those decisions were for the FA party to make. The only way to ensure a route is put up how you'd like it put up is to do it yourself.
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Mr.T
Big Wall climber
topanga
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one of my all time favorites....
"rap music, not rap bolting"
thanks to Bachar and NWA for keeping it real!
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SteveW
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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To everybody:
This has been compelling reading. I've learned lots.
Sure, I would prefer a ground-up route. But I'm not in
DR or Sean's class. And both have given honest accounts
about their route. I think, as a few people have said,
we should be civil about this. We don't necessarily have
to agree, but we all are one big family.
Thanks again for the thread. It's good.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Bravo! Sean.
Finding a higher use for your head than a parking spot for a brain bucket. Pehaps this will be your greatest contribution - a sea change in climbing - the Post-Elitist Era of Yosemite.
Visionary!
Perhaps the next step will be guidebooks that report only the authors of the highest quality routes, and leaves off the names of the FAs who put up the garbage. In fact, maybe the people putting up the bad routes will simply not report those routes out of a sense of honor (or embarassment).
When you leave only the route remains. It should be the finest route, not a testament to yourself.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Hey Fatty,
THIS is the media. Might be bigger than ink on paper; nobody really knows.
YOU'RE in the center ring of this circus.
How's YOUR EGO doing?
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Sean Jones
climber
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The last thing I want my child or any child do is grow up and suffer the same fate as some of our "heros" of the past.
There are many forms of climbing these days. Feeling ballsy, Jump on Southern Belle.
Want to climb the same wall without being as scared, Do growing up.
Want to go fast and do the same wall, french free through the cracks and and go fast.
It's as simple as that. If you don't like one climb, Climb the one you like. If you want to climb one of mine and wish it was scarier, climb it in bolder style.
I'm planning to do a new route with my new boyfriend this weekend. We're planning on soloing the whole thing wearing only g-strings and having a dance party on a big ledge in the middle. Photos and all. Anyone have a problem with that ? Or do I have to dress the way everyone else dresses and do everything the way everyone in the past did ?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Shameful.
What is the world coming to, when big walls can be rap bolted? To say that you did it to make the route "safe" is absurd. Why should climbs be safe?
I emphatically concur with ec, klaus and especially Haggis.
I don't care how much fun the route is to climb, or how safe it is, or why you guys climbed it. Rap bolting is lame, and rap bolting is cheating. Your route is not legit.
The best thing to do in situations like this is to back off, and leave the route for someone else who has greater skill and vision than you. They will eventually come along, and if the route continues to defeat others - for the next century or even for all time - then that's perfectly fine. But manufacturing a route by bolting it down to your own level - on toprope no less! - is wrong.
And lame.
Peter Zabrok
Whitby, Ontario
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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Hey Sean Im free this weekend can I go with you?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Yeah Sean,
Knickers and alpenstocks if you please. White shirt and tie. Tweed sports coat. (Dang, I said "sport." Hard to even lighten up without drifting into loaded language.) And soloing it in triconi nailed boots would be nice.
But whatever you and Boy-Toy do on that ledge, that's your business. We'll avert our eyes. (Oops, I did it again -- ramming my morals down everyone else's throat. Sorry...) I'll avert my eyes.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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There is a lot of straightforward jousting going on here, which, as I said previously, I find quite productive. Rather than seeking resolution, the discourse underscores the need for anybody paying attention to the argument, to consider very carefully their future plans in terms of bolting.
There are two main levels of concern being addressed here and there is a divergence between them as I see it.
The first is the application of tactics toward high-end climbing. Yes the risk takers engage stretches of rock in such a way that it excludes others. In contrast, the top-down climbers appealed to the notion that terrain dictates tactics. By this I mean, that there are clearly large stretches of rock which, given the current tools, tend to restrict ground-up climbing and can be well opened, and well-crafted routes observed as a result. So for me that is one of the better arguments for that tactic.
Certainly there is some overlap amongst the two groups in terms of the available terrain. The Bachar Yerian could just as easily have been either a sport route or trad route. Simple competition for resources is at play here, in terms of a particular form of expression and the subsequent permanent outcome.
Notwithstanding the complete ban of top-down routes in a place like Yosemite, either style enacted at the high end is likely going to produce a high-quality outcome in terms of the respective forms.
Although examples do get set by the elite, I don't think we should be too restrictive of the efforts of either elite camp. I say let them flourish, but in a critical way, in a way that regards the fitness of the terrain as a canvas to the appropriate style as best can be done. Doug and Sean have argued that they engaged that thought process and gave it their best shot.
The second level of concern tabled here by Healeyg and others is this concept of the risk-averse society latching onto the top-down tactic and engaging in a wholesale abuse of that in pursuit of an overall sanitization of the experience.
This is well underway. Look at the litigious nature of our culture, of American culture in particular: less and less personal responsibility, more stock put into external controls as a preference over personal responsibility and internal development.
Way back when sport climbing started, traditional climbing, if it had been upheld, would have likely served this ecological imperative of limiting bolts. The temptation to open routes by other means was too great and it has produced spectacular results; but I knew then that the masses would latch on to that and likely abuse it. So it goes.
As Joe Hedge said: "The train already left the station".
Hopefully, these vigilant dialogues will continue to nurture some critical thinking and result in the thoughtful application by the various camps, as they seek to express themselves and deploy their skill sets and tools as an imposition upon our natural resource.
Happy climbing,
Roy
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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I enjoyed reading Doug's article, nice perspective on the history of the wall. As someone who has done over 500+ first ascents, and drilled alot of bolts, I can appreciate the amount of effort that went into creating a great route. I think that most people here don't realize the amount of effort required to hand drill even a single 3/8 inch bolt in iron-hard Yosemite granite.
Like JL and others, I eyed that great wall when I was younger and thought "will it go free?" Thanks to Sean & Co. for producing a great line...I know how much work was involved. This route will no doubt see far more ascents than the neighboring lines on the great south face.
Doug writes: "We were also pretty sure that we didn't want to leave behind another death route. Enough of those on the wall already, and only getting worse. So it felt like an act of humility to go around and come in from above. Like we were sacrificing something of our personal FA experience for the sake of leaving behind the kind of route we wanted it to be. Something more accessible than everything on the wall so far had been."
What has been taken away is the first ascent of one of Yosemite's "last great" challenges. Believe me, it is far bolder, scarier, physically and mentally challenging, to go ground up. It requires greater technical expertise, more time, and more effort. Just because the route is done ground-up dosen't mean it has to be R or X either. But is it better? Once you go top down, you forgo the true first ascent and become a "route installer", and I think a great route was installed, with fewer holes, less damage to the rock, etc., but what has been "sacraficed" here has also been taken away from others- the spirit of the first ascent. Is it something worth preserving?
BG
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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simple fact in my mind:
the authors of the route in question are diluted folks. they were too afraid to dance at the threshold between gravity and friction. too scared.
from what i understood, doug robinson was a protagonist of pure climbing ethics, where the rock was sacred, and courage was the only acceptable gateway into this realm. not technology.
you two violated half dome. many people (whom probably looked up to doug) are outraged by the attack on such a jewel.
this role model let down much of the active climbing generation. hopefully, many people will stand up and revive the pure and bold climbing ethic that should reign, for the sake and preservation of the adventure.
hopefully, many people WILL NOT interpret mr. robinson's actions as acceptance of diluted courage, and apply the same cowardice on the sacred grounds that we climbers tread.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Bob wrote: What has been taken away is the first ascent of one of Yosemite's "last great" challenges. Believe me, it is far bolder, scarier, physically and mentally challenging, to go ground up. It requires greater technical expertise, more time, and more effort. Just because the route is done ground-up dosen't mean it has to be R or X either. But is it better? Once you go top down, you forgo the true first ascent and become a "route installer", and I think a great route was installed, with fewer holes, less damage to the rock, etc., but what has been "sacraficed" here has also been taken away from others- the spirit of the first ascent. Is it something worth preserving?
BG
It is a pretty good size wall than has a lot of room for more ground up routes.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Warbler said, "From the perspective of a grown up, and a father, who still climbs twice a week, I do believe Doug when he says they did the route for other climbers, and I think he should be respected for it. Of course they did it for their own reasons too - nobody but them knows exactly what those reasons are."
someone may build a trail for other climbers, but putting a route in? really? how gracious, maybe someone should start a company, Yosemite Route Setters, pay them to put up a route that you may want to do...
i dont have issues with the route, i just dont think the motivation of climbing for someone else rings true.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob: "Joe...I do get it. And have gotten it for a long time. My climbing isn't one dimensional like your is and in fact instead of being part of the problem I'm actually doing something. I helped establish a few climbing areas that have become some what popular. I worked with land owners and the BLM from the start and help create a relationship that help make these areas a model when speaking of climbers and land managers working together. I was the Colorado BLM state volunteer of year 1992 and quite proud of the work I have done."
Bob: " I admire that much more as I have through my whole climbing career been with the same woman and together we raise three wonderful children"
Well Bob, it's not like you're not the only one who works with land managers - a lot of us do. I've also established active on-going relationships with the many agencies of record for our crag and also help the Dept. of Wildlife do the Peregrine monitoring (where I'm headed this afternoon). And over three years I have personally invested about $5k in replacing all the fix anchors and pins on that same crag. And for that matter I too have a great wife and a lovely daughter who is heading off to college this year. But, I personally [and naively] like to think that kind of service to climbing and dedication to family would be the norm. But either way, they really don't have much bearing on these issues.
Bob: "You posted in another thread that If i was up to you ALL BOLTS would be removed. You my friend are an extremist on this matter and such ....can't argue in a rational way. Beware the Future...it is here and your stagnant way of thinking does nothing to help...only divide.
What I actually said, was that if I had my way I'd pull all the bolts from a single crag which lies in the heart and shadow of where sport climbing started in the US. PDX is sport heaven and there are many, many sport venues both locally and at Smith for folks to clip bolts at. Beacon Rock on the otherhand, has had a solid trad history from day one with early bold lines put up by guys like Dean Caldwell and Kim Schmitz who regularly climbed there.
My efforts are focused on keeping this one, lone classic trad crag from being overrun by a local 'tyranny of [bolted] democracy' which is solidly sport. Is that 'standing in the way of progress'? I hope so - in the same way that Eldo is now being protected (but no doubt you could think of no shortage of great rap-drilled lines there if you weren't being unfairly prevented from developing there).
I'm admittedly an extremist, but my arguments are no less rational than yours. My purpose it not to divide, but rather to raise a cogent warning lest that train tar has observed having left the station ends in a complete wreck as opposed to arriving with the least amount of damage possible.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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[Unbelievable what the I-net has done here.]
I want to say thanks to all who've posted up here: DR & Sean for stepping into a shooting range with targets on their backs, and the rest (too many to name) who have taken the time to scribe their thoughts in a way that has really made me think. This is deep and rich. I keep reading, and I keep scratching my head...
I want to respond to just about every post I read, but [perhaps thankfully] I have not much more to add, except what I've said just above.
Good climbing to you all!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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DR: "So the answer to your question is, nobody needed to rap bolt to put up mouth-watering routes next to the Snake Dike."
Doug, it was strictly a logic exercise from the perspective of risk and means - though of course a via ferrata versus another climb on the same terrain would certainly be less abstract. My only real comment to the above would be the word 'needed'. Yes, the climbers who established those other routes didn't 'need' to do them top down because they happened to hold a ground up ethic. But 'need' gets somewhat redefined when someone doesn't share that ethic. Add to that the quite logical argument that rap-bolting is absolutely the best way to insure the lowest impact and the highest quality result and you have to wonder why anyone ever felt the 'need' to go ground up.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Its really a shame it was not dean potter that did it. Imagine how much fun we would be having
Juan
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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sh#t...
what kind of a shitty world is it when we cannot completely disagree with both dadisbad and PtHP at the same time?
i really wish you guys would conference in advance, and then line up on the same side of an issue, so the rest of us could safely be on the opposite side of every fence. it just feels dirty being near either one of you in any way.
oh- and i'd suppose that ptHp would have been perfectly happy if you'd drilled a ladder up the slab and patched it up behind you in order to leave behind a free route that you hadn't even climbed- that makes a ton of sense...
in all seriousness, if he says you are not legit, you guys must be onto something here- so good on ya.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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JL - I went out and bought that R&I issue specifically to read DR's article when the issue was published. I have read it through several times and I've been looking at it carefully in bits here and there more recently as this thread has unfolded.
...DR describes nights of sitting around the campfire discussing ethics and style and vision. I think it supports the fact that the climb was put up in an intentional manner, which is important to me, at least, that the FA team had an idea and a vision.
Whether or not my upthread comments are considered relevant, they are not intended to be judgmental regarding this particular route. As I tried to point out, there are many climbs that fall short of the "best style" criteria but are considered classic and important. Some of the tactics used to establish those climbs are still a matter of debate today, with no real resolution, that fact doesn't detract from their status.
This discussion is really about future climbs, future choices that FA teams make. It is also important that those reading this discussion fold it into the decisions they will be faced with when sending their "dream line."
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Healyje,
I get it that you are proposing "strictly a logic exercise," and I already mentioned a few reasons I distrust same.
Here's another. In college I signed up for a course in symbolic logic. Thought it would be useful, but I ended up disgusted. The logic part was fine. But the crux, and the difficulty, was translating problems from real life into symbols. Once you had symbols, it was just math.
But the translation part fractured the class. Students couldn't agree with each other or with the instructor about how to get the meaning of the problem into symbols. In easy cases where we agreed, finding the logical result was trivial. But with any really interesting problems, different interpretations fractured us.
Have you noticed here how everyone seems to want to frame this discussion in a different way? If we agreed on a frame, we'd probably agree on an answer. Ain't happening.
Just as climber are a lot like humans, this is a lot like life.
After my excursion into symbolic logic, I ended up with a degree in interpretation of English Literature. Lots of room in strings of words for different interpretations. In fact, the more artful the literature, the more possible interpretations. Many of them right, simultaneously. Climbs are a little more like art than like logic.
But that too is just another analogy, and when pushed far enough analogies always break down. Back to listening to the stone...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Great thread.
The example mentioned earlier of Christian Griffith vs. John Bachar (and Bachar's subsequent establishment ground up of the B&Y) illuminates a question central to this discussion.
What would mean more to climbing, Griffith's proposed rap bolted line (which would surely see more ascents) or JB's proud and bold ground up creation, a test piece for the few who are able?
My friends will recall the days when I was a rabid advocate of ground up climbing. Then I started doing some sport climbing, and decided that I could do things my way and others could follow their own path. But in this case I stand with The Coz. And although I don’t want to be confrontational, I have to say that I am surprised and a bit disappointed to see how many of the old trads seem comfortable with this development.
I used to think of Mr. Robinson as a kind of statesman of traditional climbing. I remember also reading the words that EC quoted above. But then came those ads looking for paying clients for a backcountry F.A. Now he is rap bolting as a public service on the great south face of Half Dome. If this is moving forward, I would hate to see what going backwards looks like.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Has anyone climbed GU at all? Just curious. One push, or in two sections w/ fixed ropes, or individual pitches. I'd like to hear more about the actual climbing on the route. A topo would be really cool to checkout as well. BTW, I think Coz is right when he says there aren't as many routes back there as people think. Acres of blank stone is probably more like it. GU may have been one of the last great free lines on the SFHD and it doesn't even go free.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Hawkeye wrote: i dont have issues with the route, i just dont think the motivation of climbing for someone else rings true.
Well it does ring true for some people who established new routes. It a foreign concept because climbing is basically self-serving.
Lot's of me, me, me and I, I, I, going on in the sport.
The only way to explained this to you is like this...I climb 5.12-5.13 and have done numerous new routes in the 5.9 to 510 range...I could have easily put in a quarter to half the amount of bolts, used crap bolts and not quality anchors when doing the FA and felt ok doing it. In my mind it is the wrong to do...the right thing is to put quality gear that is appropriate for the grade so other climber climbing at that grade can enjoy the route with quality protection and safe runouts for the grade.
Joe...you see a train crashing and I see one running it's course...like it or not...that's the way it is and this and future generations are going to do what they need to do....just like ours did.
I also don't believe that our generation always "got it right" about climbing and many other other issues.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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I'm confused by the attitude of some of you traditionalists.
Looking at the topo of Cataclysmic Megasheer posted on the other South Face thread, there's basically 2 consecutive pitches of bolt/rivet ladder.
I don't quite understand how this is better than rap bolting. Certainly it damages the rock more. But that is somehow outweighed by the fact that it was done ground up?
If you all are going to say the Doug and Sean shouldn't have done what they did on Growing Up out of fear of setting a bad precedent, or out of respect for future generations, then the same type of argument should be applied to other routes.
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ct
climber
CO
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One thing that intrigues me about this debate is the context in which the Growing Up article was published. Alluded to upstream and mentioned in another thread, there is another article in the same issue about the FFA of Arcturus, on the other side of Half Dome, that provides some interesting contrast to this debate.
The opening photo has Rob Pizem (about to fall and break his back) liebacking a very clean-looking crack, with some nice stainless close at hand. Later, Pizem writes their ascent combined 'ground-up, rap and preview ethics.' This included hand drilling on lead, and 'working' the crux pitches. And placing bolts next to cracks, evidently. He writes that if it "would take an hour on lead to prep a section that you could have done in five minutes on rappel, the choice is obvious." Anderson says: "We established the route in a mix of styles, based on what was appropriate at the time."
The article talks further about working crux pitches on top-rope, installing variations to the original route with new bolts, and the ethical dilemma they faced if clean gear was out of the question. Anderson, talking about a decision to place bolts. "I also weighed the value of the aid climbing here: The pitch was straightforward A1, so it wasn't a classic or crux aid pitch."
There's some statements in there that could be pretty inflamatory! Especially in the context of this debate. So where's the outrage over this ascent?? Many of the same criticisms (and perhaps more) could be leveled against them. How come these guys aren't getting the rain of fire brought down upon them that Doug and Sean are facing? Can it all simply hang on the fact that this was a FFA and Growing Up is a FA?? If the style of free climbing established big wall routes has progressed to that used in Arcturus, then it makes sense that the style of establishing routes will also evolve.
Personally, the most timely and appropos quote from the Arcturus article comes here. "Before we got on the climb, Mike talked to Royal about the route. He said that he and Dick Dorworth climbed it in the style of the day (free and aid), and that we should also climb it in the style of our day."
The evolution of the sport is inevitable. Ethics and acceptable style will evolve. Dogmatic adherence to the accepted style of a different day will not prevent this.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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600 bitches! I'm Rick James!!!!!
useless opinion edit:
I'm not a fan of rap bolting on giant walls with limited line potential. South Face of Half Dome probably falls under this umbrella.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"There's some statements in there that could be pretty inflamatory! Especially in the context of this debate. So where's the outrage over this ascent?? How come these guys aren't getting the rain of fire brought down upon them that Doug and Sean are facing?"
Perhaps it's because Coz started this one.
I haven't read but a couple of the previous 600 posts, so I don't know if it came up on this thread.
Here's a link to that discussion...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=529019&msg=530563#msg530563
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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"How come these guys aren't getting the rain of fire brought down upon them that Doug and Sean are facing? "
Because it wasn't near cosgroves line :D
-edit- someone beat me to it...
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Buju
Trad climber
A Sandbar
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I think it would be wise to not pass judgment on the characters involved with this project until you personally know them. Both Sean and wildone are EXTREMELY respectful of the resoruce, the planet, and other human beings. Wildone will go on for eons about good style...
If you dont condone the style of the route,dont do it. (For that matter, dont do the nose, or any other climb put up in questionable style). There are WAY larger problems with the environment caused by climbers to be focused upon (how about guzzling gas to go on road trips to climb, climber induced erosion, disruption of wildlife that rely on clifs, eating agribuisiness food).
what do I know...im only 24
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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So they could have done it ground up as an X route, then returned later and retro-bolted their own line to give it reasonable protection so other people would enjoy climbing it (ala Snake Dike) and that would have been ok?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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I have been thinking long and hard about this and I can now say for a fact I have never rap bolted. Every hole I ever drilled was with the aid of Jimi.
EDIT:: Russ, did you mean to say "limited?" It would seem UNlimited would fit your sentence better. Not trying to be the corrector-of-all here, just wonderin' out loud.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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It seems like a lot of people are equating rap-bolting with a less runout route, including Sean.... I'm curious as to why this is being done (genuinely curious, as I don't understand this aspect). Why does that mean a less runout route? Can't you retroplace bolts once you've climbed it?
Furthermore, is it really "better for the environment" if it opens the door to a host(e) of asinine 'ascentionists' who want their name in a guidebook, regardless of whether or not they've spent time in Yosemite learning the ethics and working the rock?
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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What the hell are my babies gonna look forward to if rap bolting "for the future" is condoned?
It's ironic that you should mention Bridwell...the nefarious Cookie "Monster"? (On rap) Course, that don't compare to Bird's "Palm Spring" boschkateria work...
And Robbins? "It was a route worth bolting for"...110 bolt "Maestropiece"...
not that the 'hos' bothers me; (evar!) just the hypocrisy of holding up hallowed heroes whose ways and means be "rather dubious"...
hmmm...I think Bob D's quote upthread is rather apropos...
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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buju, how many of these guys happily clip the bolts on WFLT? Haha!
Point is we wanna be safe. I totally respect the abilities of guys like coz and for him that ascent means more than the sum of any other climbs for a lot of people. However this whole First ascentitis is kind of bogus. When you do a crazy ass bold route you do it for yourself and the next guy to get on it. TRUE death routes aren't repeated all the time, if they are. They are to prove something to yourself, to overcome your own fear and to set your standards high.
Which is great! However there isn't enough stone for everyone to put in a FA. The saying goes "Go do the route!" but no one is lining up for Southern belle or Karma. Hundreds of climbers are capable phisically - but why bother if its not an FA?
There isn't infinite stone, so we don't all need to do a glory FA.
That came out kind of harsh, but you get it eh?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Seeing as how there hasn't been a new guidebook since what, 93 (?) can we stop saying people are just trying to get their name in a guidebook?
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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And Peace?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Rap bolts were placed on Wings of Steel??
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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bwhaha, keep it real, knott...
I've belayed some of these "proud" "GU" ascents...it's kind of phocked people think "good style" is a (quite frequent) bolt ladder...
The traddies that taught me how to climb were purist...stance only, no batts, no hooks, no hangin', no friggin...any breach of "ethics" was "just that"...
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Yeah, Peace and the Bachar-Yerian are a pretty good parallel here.
Like Growing Up and Southern Belle you get to choose one or the other high quality route --one's a bit harder, the other more runout. Either way, have a blast.
...Once the rap bolters got through installing the option, that is.
Peace/out,
Doug
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mark and Richard didn't rap bolt on Wings of Steel. All bolts and rivets were placed on lead in a continuous alpine-style push without using fixed ropes. A bold and evidently extremely difficult route which stands unrepeated after a quarter-century.
Thank goodness the Bachar-Yerian stands as a testament to courage - imagine if it were just another [overbolted] sport route?
DOUG ROBINSON I AM SO DISAPPOINTED IN YOU!
I am heartbroken. Brilliant author of words and routes, preservationist of ethics, clean climber extraordinaire. Could you have found any better way to destroy your credibility, and make yourself appear so hypocritical? I will not do you the disservice of repeating your words from The Whole Natural Art of Protection which ec quoted above, for fear of further embarrassing you.
What were you thinking? That the end justifies the means? Man, you really shot yourself in the foot this time. If you are not embarrassed by this travesty you really ought to be. YOU OF ALL PEOPLE!
Shameful.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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426 wrote: The traddies that taught me how to climb were purist...stance only, no batts, no hooks, no hangin', no friggin...any breach of "ethics" was "just that"...
I remember having a wonderful conversation with John Gill one day as we went bouldered near Pueblo, CO.
We talked about how once you weighted the rope...it was aid...no-if's, and's or but's. Only pulling the rope and placing gear on lead was a viable true trad-ascent. Sometime in the 70's this black & white view of climbing got gray...and then grayer and then standards and amount of hard climbs got higher. Things that seems impossible just years before all of sudden became attainable.
Every generation "breaks the rules" and that is a good thing!
Think for yourself and question authority...Timothy Leary
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WBraun
climber
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Or can be bad thing too.
For example, dharma, which indicates a respect for higher authority has diminished.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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To say there isn't any more lines on the stone is a false premise based on egocentric self imposed limitations. It is in fact a way of saying no one will ever climb harder than we do today. The routes being established today were utterly inconceivable only a generation ago. The great climbing continuum has many times witnessed what was once considered the hardest climb possible become another trade route as standards increased making the impossible mundane. Many in every generation have thought no one will ever climb harder. much like saying no one will ever run the mile faster than or long jump farther than... History has shown that belief to be quite false. Much of humanity strives to break out of convention and break records. One day the SFHD will have dozens of stellar routes (and variations) put up using the evolving tactics and equipment of the day. Many of those routes will be done "ground up" in bold style using protection breakthroughs that we can only dream of at this time.
What Doug and Sean did was preferable to establishing another aid or death route and then patching and retro bolting it for a free climb. Personally I find that approach to be vulgar at best. It was always an accepted tenent of the clean climbing revolution that you only repeated routes in as good of or better style than the best style it had been done in so far. So before you go ranting about removal of "Growing Up" I would say grow up and look around carefully. There is a large percentage of fully accepted classic routes that should be retro cleaned to their FA conditions first. Based on some of the hard lined stances on ethics posted here how many people do you suppose would agree to erase their ticks on routes like The Nose or Hallucinogen because the have been radically altered from their FA condition? How many people will disregard their ascent of Stratosfear because it was established with liberal uses of preinspection, rehersal and rap placed protection? Why is the SFHD more sacrosanct than the Painted wall?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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The strangest thing so far is PTPP calling Doug shameful.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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No bob that was shamefull not funny.
What was funny is DaftRat's assertion he was going to go chop "Growing Up". As if he were even capable. Although it could be good training for his carving George Bush on Mt. Rushmore.
Hey Fatty will that be a ground up carving or will you have to rap drill?
Bob D are you going to the Webster show at Neptunes tonight?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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I did not call Doug shameful [identity] - quite the opposite. I said I feel that his behaviour is shameful, because of his previous bitchin' behaviours and ethical stances, and I am accordingly disappointed. If I didn't respect him, I wouldn't be disappointed.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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this part, right here, has some good excrishit!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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PTPP wrote: YOU OF ALL PEOPLE!
Shameful.
Oh...it so clear to me now.
Phil...I think I'll be there...haven't seen Ed in years.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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PtPP's trolling for another 600 posts I think.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Ihateplastic writes:
EDIT:: Russ, did you mean to say "limited?" It would seem UNlimited would fit your sentence better. Not trying to be the corrector-of-all here, just wonderin' out loud.
Nope. Absolutely meant Limited. These huge faces can have less climbable rock than you might think. The available rock for "real" FA climbing will become less if top down bolt fests are getting slugged in and are the new norm.... there is only so much cheese for all the rats.
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WBraun
climber
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"....there is only so much cheese for all the rats."
Hahahaha
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firegrunt
climber
Santa Cruz
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All this chatter reminds me of the story about John Salathe, as told by Galen Rowell in his book The Vertical World of Yosemite: John is listening to a group of young hot-shots arguing about climbing ethics. . . when he finally says in his thick accent, "Vy cant ve just climb?" Granted, some of you posting here are no longer "young hot shots". But maybe Salathe was onto something. Maybe we should let Salathe have the last word. . . and move on.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Climbing is more than just getting to the top of something. As we value the journey, we put various constraints on that journey.
Just as some folks see rap bolting and putting in routes in that way as something they are doing for the future generations, those of us that hold the ground up ethic deer are also keeping it out there for future generations.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Sonnie trotter dialing a sport climb, than chopping the bolts he used to dial it, and sending it on gear facing 45 footers into clean air are the new school death routes. lol.
If sacrificing style furthers the ability of man, thats one thing. Beth rodden is a prime example.
Where is Dan-o when you need him?
Anyways. I'd like to nominate fatty as head commissioner of the Armchair Athletes™™, the sovereign lord of nonsensical rhetoric and Zeus of phrase repitition. May he reign long and prosper on his throne of past accomplishments and egos of lesser beings, banished to the world of *my rule not yours.*
lulz.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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I'm pretty sure Sonnie chopped the bolts on the Path (which had never been freed) before working it. They were off the line he wanted to follow and had crappy home made aluminum hangers.
Definitely a head point though with preinspected gear and the falls were pretty clean given that the route is overhanging and the second pitch.
There's a long discussion about it on his blog. He was called out on the Gripped forum for putting up a route that is too bold and that nobody will climb. He claims someone will onsight it gear and all some day.
You can't win when your a public figure putting up eye catching routes.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Pokin' fun atcha, fatty! You know I like ya, even if youre a bit whacky! i mean heck, i wanted to appoint you HEAD of the Living Room Athletes Team!
"You can't win when your a public figure putting up eye catching routes."
When you bring a videographer and post it on your blog, you can't lol. Like I said, sonnie is a badass and I can't carry his water. I just don't enjoy all the spray following people. This "buzz" is reminiscent of so many other instances. Some new hotshot is supposed to be the number one climber in the world, does the hardest thing of his life, than moves on.
Not taht it is for everyone, but what about Eric Decaria? THAT is a climbing hero. I know sonnie has to appease sponsers, but c'mon... this isn't Football. You will never make money as a "pro Climber," and hopefully you never will... I don't like the idea of it being so mainstream that climbers re-nogotiate salaries based on recent FA's.
same with Dean... HUGE amount of respect for his abilities and accomplishments, but if I hear about the soul of the rock again I'm gonna puke. lol.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Man, some one hit a nerve on this thread, might hafta read 'em all!
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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A short story about 3 CLIMBERS of today
It was a hot, dry and sunny day in Hazzard County. Bo Duke was washing the General Lee when here comes his brother Luke Duke. "Hey Bo wanna go climbing this weekend?"
"Sure! Where to?"
"Yosemite!"
"Ok ill get the guide book and we can start SHOPPING for just the right route for us to climb."
“Here’s a good one.”
“Wow that looks cool! What’s it called?”
“THE GERBLE LAUNCHER!”
“Whooo Weeee! That’s gotta be a good one, what’s the gear?”
“UM pro to 7.”
“Cool I like em wide.”
“Ill buy a new super duper 7" expander cam if you will”.
“How much are they?’
“$199.00?”
“You gotta be off you rocker!”
“Not yet but I know them things are worth it so we wont deck climbing GERBLE LAUNCHER.”
“Your right uncle Jessie would just croak if we got hurt and couldn’t work on the farm. “
“What else should we do?”
“OOOO! Look at this one its called SOUTHERN BELL! It looks easy enough but the gear looks sparser than Roscoe Pico Trane’s smarts.”
“We could add sum gear”.
“No sir re Bo that’s not ethical.”
“Ethical ya mean like moon shine?”
“No Stupid it’s like something ya got inside ya.”
“Oh like a liver.”
“For get it. Look at this one KARMA.”
“I love cars.”
“Idiot.”
“Easy enough but the darn thing has an R/X rating.”
“Jeepers them old school boys were something else and brave too.”
“How about this one GROWING UP?”
Along comes Daisy Duke. “Hey boys what are ya'll up to?”
“Were going to Yosemite this weekend.”
“Wanna go?”
“Sure!”
“Whacha looking at there?’
“It’s a route on the south face of Half Dome”.
“Well you can forget that all those routes on the south face were put up in a way that only the first ascentionests would have the determination to get through them. Nobody wants to die being second.”
“Yah Yah I know but look at this one GROWING UP its got cracks to here (pointing to the guides topo) and just enough bolts to get you to the top without being well SOLOING with a rope hooked up to ya.” “Woo Weee boys lets start packin the General and get goin.”
Now a word from wise old Uncle Jessie:
Ya know now and then I think about now and then. And then was a whole different climbing world. We didn’t have guide books and super topos and such. Our gear was just made up from what ever we could steal from places like the black smith or off some old recked car. I remember one feller used the legs off some old stove just to scamper his way up the Captain. He didn’t even have a map. It’s like we were making it all up as we went along. As time went on we started using harnesses and sticky rubber on our shoes. Some folks thought that was cheating. Then came chalk like the kind them skinny Olympic gymnasts fellers used. That caused quite a ruckus. There were climbers chopping bolts and other ones putting them back in. Then some more chopping. All because the one feller wasn’t doing what the rest was doing. It came down to ethics. If ya came up to a rock that was unclimbed and you wanted to climb it and protect it you better do it ground up or you were in for a whoopin. That whoopin was so you would become ethical. Through the years all across the land climbers were changing there ways. Some were getting jobs and some were rap bolting. Some were even getting paid to climb. Some started wearing real tight pants that had lots of bright colors on em. At the same time all that climbing stuff was changing people were getting smarter about what the most important thing was. And that was to preserve our earth’s natural parts ya know like out croppings of rock and such. And it came time to accept a little change in the sport of climbing. See now a days we can predict the out come of some things. When you look at the impact that has been done to places like Yosemite. The old timer had a pretty heavy hand and changed Yosemite’s rocks for ever. The way they all went up em did allot of damage to the rocks. Lucky for the rocks and us people we had other people trying to make this happen less. If I recollect it was a few different fellers by the names Ray, Royal, Yavon and I think Doug ya Doug Robinson and there is more but I just can’t pullem out. They came up with some gadgets to go into cracks that made it safe and didn’t rough up the rocks. Then climbers started to look at trails that they would use and tried to make them well less impactful. Some even went out and bought hybrid vehicles just to be more green unlike my nephews in the General Lee. Ya see all this change is not a bad thing if the whole point and I mean the whole number one absolute god dam point is to preserve the rocks and the land. So don’t get in such a fuss over ethics unless ya'll think it’s unethical to be an earth lover. Well im goin back to my rockin chair on the porch and snuggle with my double barrel and sip a little moon shine. Be good and say hello to the misses.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Wtf! I go out and it's down to an hour between posts! Hey, let's not ease off like we've finally stumbled upon a grand unification theory that actually plays out on stone. It's still a long way to the top and a 1,000 posts - so get back to work you slackers. Remember, your children's future is being decided right here and if you don't have your say ad nauseum you'll have no one to blame but yourself when Fish steps in to decide their future for you.
And Bob, are you the conductor on this train or not? Gotta do better than this when the going gets steep...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Lot's of new people posting in this thread...
welcome!
moss hog
lost.hairrow
BLD
Sean Jones
BG
firegrunt
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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BLD that was brilliant!
And Bachar, where do you get all those awesome funk photos you keep posting? Always perfect.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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It's too late out here in east Finland, for me to think about this too deeply for tonight. But I'll be back to check up on all you depraved rock climbers tomorrow. Warren Harding is laughing in heaven tonight........
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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so hey, sean-
a topo would be a nice addition to this thread!
thanks in advance.
(hint)
re: The strangest thing so far is PTPP calling Doug shameful.
(smirk)
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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In the mold of "Wings of Steel"--a new quandry for the new millenium.
"Growing Up"
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Wouldn't it be wild if someone, inspired by the implications of Growing Up,
decided to make a statement about ground up ethics. But instead of doing
something destructive (like chopping Growing Up), they channeled their
energy into something positive.
Karma, one of the boldest routes ever, needs help. The route is deteriorating,
nobody sane should go near it.
Like a prize possession, it needs to be kept detailed. Left rotting,
up on blocks, it looks like nobody cares for it, or for what it represents.
That it doesn't have value.
So if you really have strong beliefs about this and you want to do something,
do something positive. A photo essay on your adventure of re-equipping
one of the wildest ever.
Now that would be cool.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Hey k-man,
Not a bad suggestion. I like the idea of something positive for a statement. Something for a new guard to cut a tooth on?
I don't know squat about that route. So how bold and bad is it?
When was the FA? And if no ones been on it, how does one know how deteriorated it is? I've clipped some pretty old gear in the past....in mud even.
Can't wait to see the TR!
Good morning to Yosemite. A place that we all dream about...
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Excellent suggestion, K-man. The K isn't for Karma by any chance?...
And you're right, Survival, never seen a photo, and there's practically no info about Karma, a very intriguing route. So while writing about the South Face I interviewed two of the guys from the FA. Here's that section, straight out of my article in R&I (hope this doesn't somehow violate my copyright ethics):
The next summer [1986], Dave Schultz, Ken Yager and Jim Campbell put up Karma, an unusual route that zig zags up the right side of the wall following intersecting dike systems.
“Schultz convinced me that the dike was huge, big enough that tourists walked down it from the top to take pictures,” says Ken Yager on a hot Yosemite evening. He smiled at being so naïve, “It turned out the dike was larger underneath than on top, thereby casting a large shadow. It looked bigger than it actually was.”
A crux pitch out the Yardarm, a piece of the dike that cuts across an overhanging section, is rated 5.11d X. “Dave kept sandbagging me by saying the next section was only 5.9 or 5.10,” Yager says. “When I was stuck, he’d say, ‘Oh, yeah, there is a little 5.11 move or two and then it gets easier.’ The runouts aren’t that bad. It’s just that the dike you’re traversing has a cord-slicing edge on it. I have never been so terrified on a route in my life.”
Dave Schultz says, “That is a nightmare. I’ll never go back. If you fall off the dike, every six inches there’s a razor-sharp crystal. One pitch I got 60, 70 feet off the belay, couldn’t stop. Finally there’s barely a stance. I had to lie down on the dike to drill. I could barely swing the hammer without knocking myself off. It took me six and a half or seven hours to drill one bolt.”
Schultz has moved on to Hollywood as a rigger, invented a way to fly actors and cameras on steel cable, and is on the phone from a limo.
He pauses, remembering, “It’s worse to follow, with that raking, Ginsu-knife edge. That’s why I named it that. Your karma has to be good to get through it. We didn’t fall.” Karma is still unrepeated.
It would be a HUGE public service to reinstall Karma. 'Course I'm not sure I'd volunteer to crowbar lazy-Dave's lyin'-down bolt placement on lead...
Who'se up for the coveted second ascent of Karma? Strike a blow for our cherished ground-up tradition? Anyone?...
Maybe, just maybe, this glimpse helps to show that the South Face is an unusual and different place. Unique. Not just hard, but serious in unexpected ways.
Possibly -- just possibly -- the realities there might suggest to you, too, stepping beyond your lifetime of cherished ground-up ethics into a strange and uncertain new world, a place you never thought you'd find yourself. Until now.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Wow...I just about p#ssed myself just trying to picture Schultz in that position. Yikes.
Doug, forgive me for playing the devils advocate over here, because I have always had respect for you and your writings. You do realize of course that your writing is part of the reason so many of us feel strongly about this.
It's interesting how you can turn Dave's experience into a commercial for Growing Up. Of course Growing Up will get more ascents! It's human nature that the largest group will gravitate to the route with the most protection on it. That doesn't necessarily mean that rap bolting Sean's route is justified. Razor crystals on Karma wouldn't be changed by rap bolting, busting them off with a hammer would change them.
Your sarcasm about the "coveted" second ascent isn't in keeping with your usual gentlemanly tone. I know it's kind of fun and we just can't help ourselves. So here goes;
You're right, SFHD is probably the first cliff to be serious in unexpected ways..... Jeez, how's that for sarcasm? So what we need is a LOT of rap bolted routes up there!
Edit: By the way Doug, I really do like a good discussion. And to be fair I will most definitely scratch up a copy of that mag and read the article. You have always written well.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Wow, holy buckets that's beautiful!
Hey chickenskinner, are you there? I didn't get a response from you about facelift. Are there some you're catching up on?
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Hi Bruce,
Don't worry, I will send you a confirmation this weekend. You have camping.
Here is another.
Route finding was not a problem, it was painfully obvious.
Ken
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Thanks Ken!
Awesome shots. Hope you have more...
And I'm glad you snapped them before some tourist with a camera strolled into view from above.
And thanks to Survival for your truly gentlemanly response. This discussion really feels a lot richer when the sarcasm and the sensitive personal revelations can coexist. Of course sometimes it isn't easy to tell which of those is being laid down.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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man: You look great, really in shape!
Woman: Are you saying I was fat before?
DR: Say's anything
Touchy people: How dare you say that. It's against something sacred.
Karma: If nobody bothered to climb it EVER, after the first ascent. Why should anybody spend time and money re-bolting it, unless they planned to sack up and do a second ascent.
Also Post up. Is the rap-assisted rebolting of Southern Belle OK? and would that be fine with Karma too? (Even, do the traversing nature of the route that some new anchors might have to be drilled to get to all the route?
Would want next good samaritans who did public service for the sake of future climbers to face their own sh#t-storm.
Note: People bowing and scraping to leave all future ascents to the best possible imaginable climbers are cuckholders. Taken to it's extremes, we might as well establish a hotline to Caldwell and the Hubers.
(Ironically, blamelessly Caldwell has benefitted from the retro-bolting/power bolting/moral lapses alleged in the initial attempts on the Dihedral, Muir and Lurking Fear {not sure if Steve added bolts or had moral lapses, but at least paved the way in vision}
Peace
Karl
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Kman;
Wouldn't it be wild if someone, inspired by the implications of Growing Up,
decided to make a statement about ground up ethics. But instead of doing
something destructive (like chopping Growing Up), they channeled their
energy into something positive.
Karma, one of the boldest routes ever, needs help. The route is deteriorating,
nobody sane should go near it.
Like a prize possession, it needs to be kept detailed. Left rotting,
up on blocks, it looks like nobody cares for it, or for what it represents.
That it doesn't have value.
So if you really have strong beliefs about this and you want to do something,
do something positive. A photo essay on your adventure of re-equipping
one of the wildest ever.
Now that would be cool. Kman
This is just about the best post in this whole mess. Too often these days we tend to beat down the other guys accomplishments rather than raise our own bar.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Doug, I agree. The name calling on some of these threads is pretty over the top. I'm impressed this one has kept such quality over a pretty long haul...
Ken, thank you SOOO much for those amazing pictures. One of the only things this thread has been short on, great pictures. I guess if it was the other side of this boulder we were talking about we'd be buried in great pictures!
Incredible how I can get scared looking at a picture from 3,000 miles away......
Edit:Tradmanclimbs, there are lots of good posts in "this whole mess."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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holy shizzle! Ginshu-knife indeed!! But what a feature to define a line. That thing is amazing... if I climbed that hard it would be difficult to resist.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Ther are a few good ones and a lot of blind negativity. Interestingly enough I am of the OP that any multi pitch climb should be ground up and single pitch as well if that is the local ethic. I have on occasion broken my own rules and rap bolted though;) I feel the key is if you have the guns and talk smack about chopping you are wasteing your life on negative energy. Why not do something positive to answer the challange. New free rout on the same wall. Ground up. A second best effort would be to re bolt one of the established scarefests and send that. If you arn't willing and able to do either then recognize the fact that you live in an armchair fantasy land in regards to this new rout and and opinions on it's merit. JMOP from my armchair;)
last summer a guy I know rap cleaned a rout @ my local crag. I knew darn well that he was not going to drill Ground up. I had allready passed on this rout because I felt it was going to be too hard and scary to drill on lead so I was pissed that these guys were cheating! I got all in a huff and went up and rope soloed a new rout about 20ft left of their project. It was hard scary and a total PINTA but I got it done despite one botched hole due to a broken bit (hand drilling) and another bolt is wicked hard and scary to clip as it's in bad spot for free climbing. Still it's a decent rout. I named it THE HARD WAY 5.10+ due to the effort and sweat that went into putting it up the hard way. Well to make a long story longer I ended up collaberating with the other guys and drilled some top anchors for them. We then top roped the piss out of their project. They eventually gave up due to the fact that they couldn't pull the roof so I brought my secret weopen (rope gun) up there and she got it on top rope. I felt that after all that top ropeing it would be downright stoopid (and scary) to go back up there and drill it on lead so there I was on a rap line with a power drill doing the nasty deed:) Named this one THE EASY WAY 5.10+ :) can you smell Sandbag............. the moral of that story is that your ways of thinking can and do change over time unless you are so darn stubborn that you can't learn anything new even if you are beat over the head with it.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Skinner, Holy Smokes! that thing looks like it would cut through your rope like butter!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Tradman,
Bwahahaha!! That's a great story..
I'm definitely not super stubborn, it's how I survive.
Gawd, that first photo the dike looks like it goes on forever. That's one of the most stunning features I've seen.
Edit: Ken, I didn't remember that you were so badass!!!
It's been a long time....
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Nice story, Tradman. Nice and real and a relief from hypothetical speculating. And yes, positive. Sort of a morality tale in that fine old tradition.
Meanwhile, over on the "Death" routes thread tolman_paul mentioned ...routes get bolded into submission
A nice turn of phrase, even if unintentional.
I trust you all know that I am still deeply in favor of bold climbing. Practice it all the time. (All the time, that is, when I'm not quivering at the base, afraid to leave the ground. Practice that one fairly often too.) And I guess I don't "trust" that enough, actually, to keep from saying it out loud again, right here. This has been my first excursion into rap bolting. I too am still mulling over what it means. And the consequences.
The snow's melting, so I'll be walking the base of the South Face again soon, wondering with my feet if I can spy a line of holds that I can climb, and protect from the ground up.
If I don't -- and it is pretty blank, and sick slick, that wall -- If I don't, it'll still be a nice stroll and when I turn the corner there's always those lines next to the Snake Dike. I know I can get up those, from the ground. It'll be fun, and I can count on doin' the Elvis a bit on the runouts.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oh, I forgot to tell you that I got all in a huff and made a scene ( acted like an ass) before I gathered my kit of hammer, hand drill, hooks pins aiders and such and stomped up to the cliff only to come back a month later and do the very deed that I was so vemanantly protesting.......
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Holy crap, what a beautifully scary looking route!
Thanks for posting the pics, Ken.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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A NEW take on this (I think...)
I was in a post-coital bliss last night, when this thread came to mind. (If that isn't f'ed!)
If I read the R&I story correctly (now about five times), the route went up to a certain point where it was unclear what the best path forward was. At that point the decision was made to rap in. The first path upward was deemed a poor choice so Sean moved over a bit and found a better choice. However, even this path would require a 60-foot bolt ladder to connect the lower established part and the upper unclimbed portion. This bolt ladder was drilled on rap.
My question now is this: While still hanging on the rap rope and before drilling a single bolt, why not take a bearing of where the ladder needs to go, go back to the base and drill the ladder on lead? Since it is an aid bolt ladder there is no need to be hanging on for dear life while you drill; you can stand in aiders. Since you now know where you are going there is no concern that you will wander off route. And if the route had been drilled on lead this thread would be about 75 posts long... in other words most of the ethics guns would have remained holstered. Complaints could still be made about pre-inspection, but rapping a new route to clean and inspect is a far cry from rap bolting.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Or even better, make an application on line before this committee for permission...?
A very important part of climbing, after all, is universal acceptance from all of your peers!
LOL.
IHP - that is the funniest "spray" on the taco stand that I can remember. Anybody else done this? (Lately, I mean.)
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Just curious. What issue of R & I is the story in?
Anybody want to post it here? Thanks!
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Doug,
How would you feel about me scanning it and making it available to those who email me requesting it? That might help relay information to those who don't have it.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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This may become one of the 10 most highly scrutinized ascents in history!
I only wish the R&I story had less detail, so that there might be more speculation and conjecture.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Steve,
January 2008 #165. You can't miss the cover: Couple of guys working a new route on the South Face of some dome.
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Plastic
Thanks for the info!
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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IHP, you didn't mention whether or not it was aided...
;-)
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Dear HatePlastic,
I think you're still confused (though you have a good excuse).
By the time we got to drilling the aid ladder we already knew from pre-inspecting that the free climbing above it would be runout to a death route standard and had decided that was an unacceptable kind of route, for us, to leave behind. So we went to work placing bolts for leading it, from the rap line we were hanging from.
Same with the aid bolts. It seemed trivial at that point how they went in and from which end. I actually put the first drill to that ladder, and it happened to be the top bolt of the ladder I drilled first cuz that's where I happened to be.
The big decision had already been made. Does this part even matter?
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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I hope someone will be kind enough to post it--it's the
only issue not available on the archive of R & I. . .
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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TiG... Despite my BITD photo contests I am not as ancient as all that. Still able to "send it" whenever called to do so. Besides, I eat an entirely organic diet so artificial colors (blue or otherwise) are not allowed.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Posting it is fine with me, but I'm not sure about copyright. I'll check with the editors.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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DR. Thanks for the clarification. I guess in my daze I was hoping to find a new light on this subject so the next 400 posts would be less repetitious (and harsh) than the previous 600.
Steve, I'll try to scan it today and post. It is a few pages and R&I is an oversize format so it is a bit trickier but I'll give it a go. Check back later.
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Off-Width Loving Crack Whore
Trad climber
SLO
|
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For reference here is the cover
DR- If R&I doesn't want this on here let me know... I don't want to infringe on copyrights.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
|
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Steve,
I tried both my scanners and the page is just too big. I don't want to make a crap job of it. Maybe Doug will post the text of the article. Sorry!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
|
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Aren’t the real issues here about location and precedent?
Even most of the Older Trads still climbing these days are fine with the fact that rap bolting, pre-inspection, cleaning and the like are accepted practices in many areas. In some places these techniques even yield the best routes – mostly sport climbs. Heck, I just got back from a 5 day ORG trip, clippin’ all those bolts – who cares how they got there… it was a blast.
However, other climbs in other areas cry out for a more serious and adventurous approach, even if it does not lead to immediate success. If one views the SF of Half Dome as such a place, then one is bound to question the methods employed to complete this ascent. I will suggest that what is the “right” or “best” way to do new routes is not a universal one, it is situational.
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
|
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"... I don't want to infringe on copyrights."
As long as you don't materially benefit from posting I think you're fine.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
|
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EDIT: Okay... a tad big. I'll scale that down from now on!
EDIT EDIT... Please stand by... DR may have some news on the posting of the article.
Edit^3: On the next page DR says the article will be online soon so I have withdrawn my plans. Thanks to DR and R&I
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
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What I want is a handrail goin' up that Karma dike.
I'm still shaking my head.....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
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If you don't want to infring on copyrighted material then don't! Chicks are allways doing that crap. Every time they say "i don't want to hurt you" you just KNOW they are getting ready to drop the bomb and cut your heart out and drag it down the road behind their truck....... If you want to read it buy the magazine or let R&I post it on their website if they are so inclined. JMOP
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
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Why should anybody spend time and money re-bolting it [Karma], unless they
planned to sack up and do a second ascent.
First, I'd say the current condition of the route is a real deterrent
to anybody with dreams of repeating it.
You have an old book, gathering dust and molding underneath a bunch of crap
in the corner of your basement. A friend comes in, sees the book and says
"Hey, can I take that?" If you answer "No, I'm using it," what kind of
fool would believe you? Letting this route rot sends a message loud and clear,
we don't care about routes like this. Even though it's a bold ground-up free
ascent on a big wall, it's not worth preserving.
Even if the route didn't get a 2nd for another 20 years, having it "in condition"
makes it available. It stands, ready to go. It stands, period. Let it rot,
and there's no argument if somebody retro-raps into PG status. You cannot
say "Hey, we're using that!" All you would be able to say is "Those
corroded bolts stood as a monument to what people used to do." Past tense.
Contrast that with "That proud route stands, ready for all comers."
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
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Instead of Fattrad chopping Growing Up, perhaps we could get him to rebolt Karma...
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
|
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hey k-man, I like your idea, but isn't the fact that no one climbs it testament to the fact that we don't care about these sorts of climbs? (see the museum climbs thread.) Isn't reequiping it for someone else to climb exactly the sort of 'climbing public service' that Growing Up is getting railed on for?
Personally, I think the idea of doing that much work, on one single route, that still may not get climbed, is a bit ludicrous. Even if it does get climbed, it will likely be by some superman. Why do superman's work for him? Especially if that superman is a full time climber with no regular job.
I see it as much different from the great community service that Roger Brown, Clint Cummins (and others?) have done.
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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What about a statute of limitations on routes. 20 years between any two ascents and the route becomes fair game.
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
|
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Talk about flaming, tradman.
I'd buy the magazine if it were available. But a January
issue is long gone from the mag racks.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
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OK, Rock and Ice is putting it on their website. Should be up shortly, and we'll give you the URL.
I know that I ultimately own the copyright. Like Shawn Reeder ultimately owns the photos. Often though the magazine or book or whoever publishes it has bought exclusive rights for some period of time, and I'm not sure what that is or if it's over.
Shawn Reeder has agreed to have his photos appear with the text, so we should get the whole package soon.
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Gene
climber
|
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Thanks Doug.
I have the article but appreciate your effort in getting it put on line for those who don't. Good job.
Gene
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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DR
I appreciate it. I've always admired your writing and
style.
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Off-Width Loving Crack Whore
Trad climber
SLO
|
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Tradman-
I know that my nickname could insinuate that I am a "chick", but I'm knot. The name was jokingly given to me after a weekend of climbing at The Needles (CA).
I was merely asking for DR or anyone else to let me know if my posting of the cover was infringement so that I could delete it if necessary.
Also I have read the article (how else would I been able to scan the cover?) and it is obvious that several people posting here haven't. R&I doesn't have a cover photo of that issue on their site so I posted it for reference.
If you recently had your heart ripped out I'm truly sorry... that sh*t sucks
Anyway... back to the thread....
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
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Yeah, thanks a bunch for getting that on the R&I site...I bought that issue when it came out, but lost track of it.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
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Thanks Doug,
New fodder should freshen up the discussion a bit eh?
Will the defendants please rise.....
Haha
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Good idea to put fresh bolts on Karma, and I think I just heard Fatty volunteer. Thanks!
I have an idea for a slight upgrade. NO, not THAT. Hear me out.
Put little chains on the bolts that reach over that cord-slicing edge on the dike. (Or swaged cable...whatever.) Then the rope can run below the dike out of harms way. You can see in those Karmic photos that some of the bolts are right above the dike, making it easy.
If the route got safer without growing any more bolts, maybe I'd give it a try. Never seen ramps like that anywhere else.
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Doug
You're a gentleman for having taken all the abuse on
this thread. Thanks again for being constructive in
your replies.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Not Flameing or insinuating that you are a chick just telling it like it is. As a photographer I am somewhat used to getting ripped off on a reguler basis as well. It does seem that quite often people say the opposite of what they mean and I just used the example of the chick dumping you to get the point accross. When someone says
I don't mean to be rude.
I don't mean to hurt you.
I don't mean to steal your copywright.
I don't mean to be an ass.
it is generaly spoken right before they do exactly what they have just told you they didn't want to do. My verbal response to this disclaimer has evolved over the years to : Then don't"
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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By the time we got to drilling the aid ladder we already knew from pre-inspecting that the free climbing above it would be runout to a death route standard and had decided that was an unacceptable kind of route, for us, to leave behind.
Doug, I'm curious why you didn't put it up ground up, then add bolts later.
Its seems the only real two possible transgressions IMO are: 1. A top down approach "stole" the possiblity of a ground up FA for a future party. It seems to me if you could have done it ground up but decided not to that was your prerogative, because it could have gone either way, and the only people's experience affected would have been your own (except of course when it's been put in print and subject to other's scrutiny). and 2. The climb may lead to more of the same by other's who don't put in the thought or have the ability (but I think you have to cross that bridge when you get to it, you can't be responsible for everyone elses action. e.g. After Warren sieged a few climbs and that style was deemed not as worthy, fixed ropes on half dome were simply bypassed by Royal putting up an continuous ascent. But I guess if a poor route goes in on rap, it's worse because it can be chopped, but the damage remains.)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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DR, part of my interest here is because this isn't an abstract exercise for me. I have a new four or five pitch extension to an older one pitch line I'm working on where I managed to push it up through two smaller roofs to a high point under a very large roof structure before weather and our Peregrine closure set in. The first pitch existing line was put up by Couchmaster here.
The second pitch I put up in the fall was done onsight, ground up, cleaning and trundling free on lead. The line had never gone previously because it was blocked by a large panel of loose stone that, after some study, I figured a way to climb through to a stance above it and trundle. I did that section roped-solo so no one would be below me when the panel cut and despite arranging things as best I could I still got a my lead line chopped in the effort (was tagging a second rope). But that opened the line and as is typical around here, a spate of sketch 5.11ish climbing ultimately yieled a technically interesting old school 5.9 pitch and established a high point up under the center of a large interconnecting series of 25 to 35 foot roofs.
Once the Peregrine closure is over I hope to be back up there to finish the route. What makes that prospect interesting is that the combined roof structure is probably 60 feet across so there is no way around it, little pro, possibly no free line, and it'll likely be 12-13+ if there is. On top of that everything I've touched above the high anchor is hollow sounding, potentially loose, and variously somewhat bigger than a lazyboy with most the size of a Prius or larger. But above those roofs is a three pitch face [with more roofs] no one has ever seen much less been on. On mentioning the situation to a friend who is a Valley climber of some note in his own right, but who shares none of my delicate sensibilities, his immediate response was "why don't you just rap down, clean it, and set it all up?"
Clearly a good question. First problem, with roofs above roofs it simply may not be possible to employ such a tactic short of some Svengolly down-aiding. Second, ground up is a strong ethic for me. Many here consider and call ground up vs. rap-bolting a matter of 'style'; I disagree and the fact someone feels the need to shuffle it from ethics to style to avoid an internal ethics breach pretty much says it all for me (and I'm not saying that's the case for each of you with this line). In any case, I'm shortly going to face the same sort of decision you folks faced: try for free and then either stop, aid, or rap - and even after rap-cleaning the big roof may still only be possible on aid by anyone.
This case is a bit more complicated by the size and quantity of potential loose stone; one could claim to have an 'out' or 'pass' as rapping could be justified to clean for safety. But for me - if that's the way it were to go - I'd still consider it a breach of long-held, personal ethics which is quite a different dilemma then simply a matter of changing styles. This case may also a bit different in that I'm not particularly interested in getting to the top so much as being able to climb what I believe is a stellar face above the roofs (I can't tell from this thread how attractive the slab pitches were to Sean as opposed to him just wanting a route that tops out).
So the questions that might end up being posed to me is: what's that upper face worth to me? Do I abandon it because it can't be freed by anyone or do I resort to aid? Free or aid, do I wuss out and attempt to rap clean some of the large blocks which are likely loose? Irrespective of loose rock, how selfish am I if I aid through the roof if it looks like there are free moves I can't do just so I can climb the upper face? And how bad of an ethical copout is it to deal with very large loose blocks on rap? Bottomline, the question might best be expressed as is the potential of the upper face worth a personal ethics breach (or side-step for loose rock)?
We're all different - I suspect this would be a no-brainer for Bob and others, and certainly for my friend with no small Valley resume - but for me it's a matter of deep conflict, difficult introspection, and I'm alternately thankful for and resent the Peregrine closure for allowing / making me dwell in a strong internal debate.
Edit: Sweet, 700, and wasn't even paying attention...
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couchmaster
climber
|
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You got the 700th post Joseph! Nice catch.
EDIT First pitch note addition: that line Jh mentions in the post above was started over 20 years ago and has had literally thousands of climbers snail-eye or casually look at that upper rock face and line as they wander by, including moi. Joseph didn't steal the line nor will he have stolen anyone else's clean ground up FA should he take the sensible intelligent course of action and rap down so as to survive to play another day IMO should any of those rocks be loose, but I didn't see the SFHD choice as being, "do we rap and trundle so as to not kill ourselves when that huge loose block parts company with the wall"
Co-incidentally, one of the many folks who's looked at that face plenty of times and passed on it is Neal Olsen, (still climbing) who had taken a loose block at about Camp 6 level on the Nose for a Slim Pickens style ride in like 1968 or so and horribly smashed his leg: thus becoming the first technical rescue on El Cap. (Werner posted a great Bridwell pic earlier on ST with Neal in a stretcher)....shhhhh I think they're playing "it's a Small Small World" over there now.
Crap, here we are, I wasn't going to post again. Damn. If this passes Bobby Modles thread in numbers of posts I'm gonna be embarrassed, hope the guy recovers.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
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An interesting point to ponder.
Other climbs on SFHD have been called "Death Routes."
But, as has been discussed elsewhere and on another thread, these routes keep the riff raff down to a pretty select group of climbers. So the guys that get out there are pretty darn solid. No fatalities yet, that I know of....
Any climbers tackling Seans route will likely be excellent free climbers, but not necessarily as experienced and zen headed as others. It is certainly possible to pop small gear out of a 5.12 corner and have an ugly meeting below.
As we know, trade routes and trails account for a far higher number of fatalities. More traffic, more danger....generally speaking. So, which is actually more deadly? It is possible that Growing Up will produce the first fatality over there.
Not that it could or would change anyones mind, just an interesting thought when thrown in with the death route comments.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
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Sounds like Hank C. came close on Southern Belle. I'm sure he can provide the details, but it sounded from someone's post that he started tumbling. At that point it's probably just luck that he didn't crack his head along with the ankles.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
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adapted from photo by le_bruce
line on upper slab for Growing Up is a guess, based on route description
[edit: right traverse on slab lowered, as per Doug's comment]
[Lost Again added on arch to left of South Face, as suggested by Ed; the line above that arch is a guess by me]
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
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looks like a great line to rapp bolt to the left of karma.
i mean hell, now that the cat is out of the bag i wonder if DR and crew would have issues with that?
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BLD
Social climber
CA
|
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Ken,
I just looked at that Karma thread. It turned my stomach. You guys are the back bone of climbing.
Blair...
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
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Doug, I'm curious why you didn't put it up ground up, then add bolts later.
For the same reason I'm never going to do the paralled pitches of Southern Belle, much as I would love the climbing: too deadly.
The choices before us seemed, to us, to be:
1. Death Route
2. Rap Bolting
3. Leave it for the Future
Neither of us wanted a death route, or else that's what Growing Up would be now. Surely with a different name. And the South Face already had two.
If we left it for the future, then two possibilities: Either someone else would put it up as a death route, even further monopolizing this wall toward an elite minority, or emerging technology would shift the balance. So maybe Gecko Foot™ Rubber or, say, Suction Cup™ Pro to the rescue. In that case, BFD, the whole game is changed forever and we all get to rant about it on some future thread.
See how it began to seem kinda pointless to us not to rap install it? Even as blasphemous as that seemed, at first, to us.
So now, this summer, you and I (with my healed elbow tendons, thanks) get to rap in from the top and climb on the superb and unique upper slabs of the South Face. I can't wait, cuz I know how beautiful it is up there.
See you up there.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
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Doug,
> Good idea to put fresh bolts on Karma, and I think I just heard Fatty volunteer. Thanks!
> I have an idea for a slight upgrade. NO, not THAT. Hear me out.
> Put little chains on the bolts that reach over that cord-slicing edge on the dike. (Or swaged cable...whatever.) Then the rope can run below the dike out of harms way. You can see in those Karmic photos that some of the bolts are right above the dike, making it easy.
The potential rope cutting is certainly a concern, but I don't think this suggested solution would work. Since the bolts were drilled by standing on the dike, they will generally be 6 feet above it. So a couple of chain link does not reach the dike. Also, if you take a leader fall, you and the rope go down past the dike, and the rope crosses the dike, unless you put 7 foot runners on every bolt, and hang the belay down below the dike as well. I don't know how serious the rope cutting concern is, but other ways around it are having a second lead rope or a thicker lead rope.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
|
|
Just get out there and "improve" the sharp edge with a hammer until it is not so sharp. Heck, that's what they would do in France, no???
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
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Doug,
>> Doug, I'm curious why you didn't put it up ground up, then add bolts later.
> For the same reason I'm never going to do the paralled pitches of Southern Belle, much as I would love the climbing: too deadly.
>The choices before us seemed, to us, to be:
> 1. Death Route
> 2. Rap Bolting
> 3. Leave it for the Future
Could you answer his original question? It is a combination of 1 and 2 - maybe you are lumping it in with 2?
I.e. bolt it on lead, then if a particular pitch is too deadly for later parties (elitist in your view), add bolts to it (on rappel). Does this sort of combination seem pointless to you / same as 2?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
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Re: Karma - to this casual observer the rope cutting potential looks deadly serious and repeatedly, if not continuously, so.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
|
|
I think everything that can be said has been said until someone puts up a second slab finish on lead. DR stated that the line they took was way down on the list of the most obvious. Would someone leading it out pick the same line? Doubtful. Seems to me that there is still plenty of room for someone else to lead out another line to the top. Everyone's talking like there's only one line on a slab.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
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Clint,
Thanks for putting lines on the photo. Helps us all.
The line for Growing Up is pretty right-on, except that it jogs back right a bit sooner above the arch. And of course the angle of the photo makes it look closer in the arch section to the line of the old South Face than it really is.
Karma: I still think that the chain or wire extension would work to get the clip-in below that Ginsu-knife edge, even if some of them had to be six feet long. And you bet I'd use a fat rope. Or two.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
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i am still curious if DR would have issues with another party rapping and drilling an entier route on the SFHD.???
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
|
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“ ..If we left it for the future, then two possibilities: Either someone else would put it up as a death route, even further monopolizing this wall toward an elite minority, or emerging technology would shift the balance. So maybe Gecko Foot™ Rubber or, say, Suction Cup™ Pro to the rescue. In that case, BFD, the whole game is changed forever and we all get to rant about it on some future thread… “
Mr. Robinson, after all you have represented for these many years I am again stunned by your statements. You are basically saying that because this wall is there it should be accessible to more climbers, not just an elite few who can actually do it in good style? Are there not enough routes out there for everyone without bringing down the last great one’s? And your predictions of future improvements in climbing tech are a very weak attempt to justify lowering your standards today. My .02.
You are a well regarded man, and I have enjoyed the couple of times we met which you may or may not recall. At The Needles. Also I compliment you on your level headed participation in this forum, but I am compelled to ask you these questions and challenge you anyway. Carry on.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
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Doug...you can count in in for this summer...I would love to do the route.
This tread is gotten longer and more civil...why to go for keeping it real. Amazing what can happen when we treat each other with respect.
Ksolem wrote: Are there not enough routes out there for everyone without bringing down the last great one’s? And your predictions of future improvements in climbing tech are a very weak attempt to justify lowering your standards today. My .02.
Well it pretty obvious that there are not other route like this out there.
Coz got what he wanted out of Southern Belle...not everyone needs to follow his lead and it obvious they don't as two ascents in 28 years is not a testimony to a great route. You might to ask the 99.999 per-cent of Yosemite climbers who not even made a effort to repeat it.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
|
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Hey Doug and Sean,
This question has been asked in similar forms a few times now and I don't see where it's been answered (what I mean to say is this: sorry if it's been answered; I can't find it).
Doug,
>> Doug, I'm curious why you didn't put it up ground up, then add bolts later.
> For the same reason I'm never going to do the paralled pitches of Southern Belle, much as I would love the climbing: too deadly.
>The choices before us seemed, to us, to be:
> 1. Death Route
> 2. Rap Bolting
> 3. Leave it for the Future
Could you answer his original question? It is a combination of 1 and 2 - maybe you are lumping it in with 2?
I.e. bolt it on lead, then if a particular pitch is too deadly for later parties (elitist in your view), add bolts to it (on rappel). Does this sort of combination seem pointless to you / same as 2?
This is one of my questions too.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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While it's true we're talking the Valley where such things are commonplace but - as free routes go - (and if I have this right) if Growing Up has a sixty foot bolt ladder dividing two wholly distinct gear and bolted major sections, it would seem to me as though it's two very different and separate free routes with an aid connector. As such the first [natural] route really did simply end at the top of the arch and, however good the the second half, the conjoined joined route is strictly an artificial construct whose rationale for existing can pretty much only be interpreted as a strong desire to establish a line that topped out on HD.
Just an observation to note that, at the natural end of the lower route and confronted with a blank headwall, the first call that this route would top out no matter what had to come before the decision was made about the death route status of any upper line. That aid connector together with the fact it it took significant surveying to divine a line through the upper half of HD, pretty well illustrates that however 'good' the route may be, it is in no way a natural line to the top. And I also want to mention I'm saying that with the recognition that on SFHD there simply may not be many 'natural lines' to the top - which to me is another set of both ethical and style questions which appear to come with the territory. You guys clearly made your call in the face of them.
Edit: And again, the same dilemma I may be facing though the upper face in my case is definitely more 'climbable'/protectable.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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I'll take a shot, dom.
1. Assuming you mean ground up on aid: because it is not a bolt ladder. You can't reach the next bolt from the previous. If, on rap, we had bolted it tightly enough to reach the next bolt from the previous, I'd understand the "what's the point?" mentatlity. That could have been done, for sure, and there would be a tenth of the controversy. But who loses? The rock, with 500 unneccessary holes.
2. Assuming you meant ground up, "free": because the nature of this rock, and the almost complete dearth of hands-free stances or anything to (ethically kosher) hook from whilst drilling, there would be maybe one bolt per pitch, an outcome we didn't feel like moving towards.
I'll put up some photos of the lower half. I have none of the upper half.
Clark range from inside the big arch.
Looking up at the arch, from the base.
Zooming in to the crux of the Harding/Rowell route-the bombay. Low-quality photo.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Ben,
> 1. Assuming you mean ground up on aid: because it is not a bolt ladder. You can't reach the next bolt from the previous. If, on rap, we had bolted it tightly enough to reach the next bolt from the previous, I'd understand the "what's the point?" mentatlity. That could have been done, for sure, and there would be a tenth of the controversy. But who loses? The rock, with 500 unneccessary holes.
Well, not 500 unnecessary holes, since the Harding route has "only" 300, but maybe 50 or 100? I suppose some would say that 10 extra holes is way too many....
> 2. Assuming you meant ground up, "free": because the nature of this rock, and the almost complete dearth of hands-free stances or anything to (ethically kosher) hook from whilst drilling, there would be maybe one bolt per pitch, an outcome we didn't feel like moving towards.
Say one bolt on a lead was all that could be placed. What about then rappeling down that pitch and adding more? That is what Becca, I and others are asking. I have done this on my own first ascents. You can also add them on subsequent leads of the pitch if there are stances to put in more on lead. That is what Eric Gabel did on Dream Easy - he led it first without any bolts, decided it was a worthy route, and went back and reled it, adding bolts on lead. This is also essentially what was done on Snake Dike, although not by the FA party but at their suggestion.
If you want to be fancy and communicate exactly which bolts were placed on lead and which on rappel, you can use different types of hangers for the bolts added after the first lead. I suppose that way if somebody wanted to just clip the originals, they could ID them. Still, they cannot recapture the FA experience because they are not drilling on the repeat ascents.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Why relive a FA experience when you can just do a FA? Someone with the talent to repeat routes like SB, Kharma, and a GU bolted on lead would probably just pick a new line... as has been happening. Hence there are a handful of routes on the wall with few if any repeats. Just my 2 cents :D
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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As such the first [natural] route really did simply end at the top of the arch and, however good the the second half, the conjoined joined route is strictly an artificial construct whose rationale for existing can pretty much only be interpreted as a strong desire to establish a line that topped out on HD.
The idea of 2 different routes is interesting. I can see that.
However I'd venture the strong desire was more to climb what looked like amazing stone more than establish a line that topped out. Royal has said it's the quality of the climbing that justifies bolting not the quality of the line. Edit: in your earlier post I see you recognize the desire to climb 'a stellar face' I'm sure that came into play for them too.
As for trundling from rap, I'm kinda joking but maybe... you could do it at night. The headlight will only illuminate so much. Take a quick peak looking for loose stuff but THATS IT. Preserve the onsight!
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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I don't see what the point would be, Clint. Just a bunch of weird unneccessary stuff to satisfy armchair critics seems like a contrivance to me. Assuming we had done it that way, what would people be arguing about then?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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> Why relive a FA experience when you can just do a FA?
Because "reliving" a FA experience and doing a FA are quite different, when getting the bolts in is very difficult.
There are also people who are not interested in doing FAs because they do not want to do any drilling; they do not want to feel responsible for that impact. However, they are happy to clip bolts and make suggestions to people who are doing new routes (I may be oversimplifying their reasons).
You do have a good point that when repeating a route is rather risky, you might as well do your own FA, to at least get the "glory" that goes with doing a new route. This assumes there is a possible new route with a similiar difficulty still available.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Ben,
> I don't see what the point would be, Clint. Just a bunch of weird unneccessary stuff to satisfy armchair critics seems like a contrivance to me.
OK, thanks for answering. There is a reason for doing it that way beyond "satisfying armchair critics":
it allows you to have the ground up adventure, while still satisfying your interest in creating a "safe/popular" route
> Assuming we had done it that way, what would people be arguing about then?
I don't understand this question. Are you saying that you wanted people to argue about the route?
[Edit to add: see Ben's clarification below. And I agree with Ben and Bob that people would still criticize it. It shouldn't matter too much, though as long as you are happy with your decisions.]
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Gene
climber
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Out of curiosity - my question may have been addressed upstream - how many bolts were placed getting to the blank 60 feet? How many bolts are there in the upper 1,000 feet?
Thanks,
GM
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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it allows you to have the ground up adventure, while still satisfying your interest in creating a "safe/popular" route
Why is it important to other people what kind of adventure they have?
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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"Because "reliving" a FA experience and doing a FA are quite different, when getting the bolts in is very difficult.
There are also people who are not interested in doing FAs because they do not want to do any drilling; they do not want to feel responsible for that impact. "
I've heard horrorstories about how hard that stone is... I can only imagine trying to slam a quick bolt in. Poor schultz... lol
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Gdavis...'ve heard horrorstories about how hard that stone is... I can only imagine trying to slam a quick bolt in. Poor schultz... lol
As one who has placed bolts on routes up to 5.12 from stances I can tell that all you are worrying about is getting a hole started and then put in the quickest bolt...quarter inch by one and half inch and f*#k (quality) to anyone else later... as you are safe for the moment.
I also used a skyhook (attached to my harness) over the drill bit once it was in a half inch or so to take some relief (aid) off my feet and arms.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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{sigh} Too bad you didn't make choice #3.
I echo Ksolem's sentiments, and repeat his [unanswered] questions as asked on the previous page.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Clint, I realize now how what I wrote could be mis-interpreted. My point was not that I WANTED people to argue, just that, assuming we did just what you implied, people would be criticizing us for making too many holes and being heavy-handed with the drill, etc.
It is my postulation that certain people may never be satisfied and relish the role of the critic.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Wilddone wrote: It is my postulation that certain people may never be satisfied and relish the role of the critic.
Everybody can do it better once the FA is over. They would placed less bolts, more bolts, cleaned more, cleaned less, used a hook, not use a hook, use stainless over carbon bolts, ring anchors over links, run it more, run it out less, leave the dirt in, take the dirt out, removed the loose hold, leave the loose hold, use eb's, wear a swami, solo it and so forth.
The reality of it is that maybe one per-cent of the climbing population does put the effort in doing new routes and other 99-per-cent are critics.
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jstan
climber
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I believe this right is granted in the Constitution.
Edit
After a tiny bit of research I am reminded our First Amendment is just a broader
interpretation of the English Bill of Rights(ca 1689). I bring it up only because
people, including some in high places, seem to be forgetting our Constitution. That
document is the only thing standing between us and civil war, something Osama
never dreamed he might be able to cause.
W.
Of course I remember you! You, myself, and Bob picked up a lot of good trash that day.
I would be so bold as to make a comment generally on this thread. I think the
discussion is constructive because the participants are recognizing a central fact.
The only thing any of us will get from climbing ultimately, is an appreciation for the
interesting and extremely able characters we have met.
Given that, resolving questions of all sorts, becomes possible.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I just took off for a couple hours from what I've been doing all week -- this -- and went to my daughter's improv performance. It was great! But I sat in the audience with tears in my eyes over this discussion. I'm overloaded and depressed here and the tech chatter in the questions and the what-ifs are getting louder.
I'm going for a hike in the redwoods and I'll see ya later.
At this point I think if someone bolted from the top to the bottom of this Dome....I dunno. It's hypothetical and pretty extreme. Even the question is a game, not a climb.
I've already told you what I would actually do, what I will do, myself personally, this summer. And I've always felt that doing -- not talking -- is the best inspiration. In that sense you've already got the route. Some of you query as if you want me to recant. But my hand was on the drill.
What I'm gonna do, then: I'll ramble along the base, look for lines, boulder out some openings. If it looks good, I'll start up and see if I can find a stance to get something in. And repeat. From the ground. And then I'l see what would unfold or come down. I'd think about the feel of how fine the moves were so far and back off to glass the wall above and load the pipe and wonder.
Then I'd probably make a beer run to the Valley while my thoughts settled and I began to hear the slow still voice from deeper inside whispering my true feeling. I'm a contemplative, not a hothead. I'm an artist, not a planner. While in the Valley I'd probably get distracted by hot chicks, good conversations, preferably both together. Then remember to bolt for the high country. (teehehe -- he said "bolt")
I'm not making this up and I'm not stalling and I'm not being cute. This is who I am. All the stuff you've read of mine and liked and that I like too and that I keep evolving came out slowly and trickled into notebooks by the side of a trail or "sitting on my pack on a snowy col" (my line). Point is it flowed out of feet on the ground -- grounded -- out of experience. It happened in little increments and it came about by inspiration. It damn sure didn't result from being posed some phony, overly-extreme ethical dilemma while sitting on my ass in front of a keyboard.
I'm going for a hike. If the rest of you guys are half as stale as I am: get up, stretch, go do something. The weekend's starting. I'll see you back here when I feel healthy enough to contribute.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Ben and Bob,
I agree - there will always be some people who complain about a route, no matter what. (I edited my post to include Ben's clarification).
Ben,
Did I put the lines in the right place on your photo? In Doug's article it sounded like it was a little confusing at first, figuring out what went where.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Absolutely, John. It's just a corollary of mine that it's a waste of time to answer "what-if's" because they will always exist.
I will always remember talking with you after a Yosemite Facelift at the deli. I was the guy who had lived on Laurel Canyon in Santa Barbara right off of foot hill near your house. I was driving Ken's truck that day, helping you and (was his name Bob?) carry in all that copper cable from above the cookie.
You are one of the great names in our sport that I've always looked up to, and have enjoyed all of your thoughtful comments during your tenure here on Supertopo.
Clint, you are exactly right. Man, the free climbing on "South Face" was/is incredible. We were getting pretty psyched on that line until it became definitly 5.14(?) and had to come down. If someone is ridiculously hard, and can figure out a way to get through the escape hatch up there, they will have one hell of a route.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Everybody can do it better once the FA is over. They would placed less bolts, more bolts, cleaned more, cleaned less, used a hook, not use a hook, use stainless over carbon bolts, ring anchors over links, run it more, run it out less, leave the dirt in, take the dirt out, removed the loose hold, leave the loose hold, use eb's, wear a swami, solo it and so forth."
C'mon - that's exactly the sort of obfusticating tripe which makes Fox News so successful - pretend there are no issues of substance or that there is no way to discuss those of issues from any substantive or valid perspective on either side. If it's all just noise, what are you posting for?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: C'mon - that's exactly the sort of obfusticating tripe which makes Fox News so successful - pretend there are no issues of substance or that there is no way to discuss those of issues from any substantive or valid perspective on either side. If it's all just noise, what are you posting for?
Joe...funny how you see only what you want...I'm posting because it is true and this thread proves it. Every thing I posted could be and is a issue to people after a FA is completed. Prove me wrong...which I know you can't.
I don't watch Fox!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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DR said, "At this point I think if someone bolted from the top to the bottom of this Dome....I dunno. It's hypothetical and pretty extreme. Even the question is a game, not a climb."
i guess i dont see the difference between your route and bolting all the way up....
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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You can't force an opinion on anyone... from either case. You can't convince the FA team they did something unethical just as they can't convince you otherwise. Not that it doesn't warrant discussion... but keep to reality. There is no "secret question" that you can ask either side to make them go "ah shoot, your right. I'm wrong."
Besides, we want this thread to continue, don't we? :D
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Kevin wrote: Here's a "secret question":
If other routes in the Valley and TM are rapbolted and generally accepted, even next to ground up established classics, why is this one 1000 posts different?
You might want to go to the first post to answer that one.
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WBraun
climber
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Doug R
Don't tax your brain over this stuff, it's not worth it. You've explained enough. Let the rest of em terrorize their brains over this, lol.
These guys here will go on forever in circles ......
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Knickers in a twist.
Hell, there are kids starving in China...
...or is that in the Appalachia?
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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The real question is.... When will this thread die of exhaustion?!!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Surely knott before reaching 1000 posts, no doubt...
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Why is this thread 750 posts long and the one about Moonlight Buttress being free soloed only 16 posts long?
Hmmmmm...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Uhh - the Moonlight Buttress thread is 9 hours old, and is likely an April Fool's hoax.
This thread is 6 daze old, and many if knott most of the key players have posted.
Funny how that works...
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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DR wrote:
"If we left it for the future, then two possibilities: Either someone else would put it up as a death route, even further monopolizing this wall toward an elite minority, or emerging technology would shift the balance."
Why isn't it OK to have some faces and routes that are only climbable by the "elite minority?" If you want to climb those routes and faces either you sack up or you go home. Historically, the SFHD seemed to be one of those places.
Bruce
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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The style that is used to put up a first ascent sets the standard for that route not the whole wall.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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BLD wrote "The style that is used to put up a first ascent sets the standard for that route not the whole wall."
I don't think that is a universally held viewpoint. There are whole areas like Pinnacles National Monument(which at last count has over 900 routes) where the ethic is ground up. It's not just a wall it's an entire climbing area.
Bruce
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I feel that if a rout is such crap that it dosen't get repeted for 20 years that it is not a rout for the elite it is just a crap dangerous rout that nobody actually wants to climb. Even the elite don't want to climb it. There may be a few of the elite who WOULD LIKE TO HAVE climbed it but there obviously arn't any of them who would actually LIKE to climb it. ;)
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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I just finished the article after a busy day yesterday.
It's a really good article and the route sounds amazing too.
The article has some excellent history in it, and a lot of information about the arch pitches. There is some good writing about "the decision" as well, but not as much as you might think. There is much less information than I expected about the entire upper half though. I wonder why that is?
I am still very torn about this. But ultimately, that route is much bigger than my guns or my balls, so it's not for me to judge. I have very much enjoyed being in the conversation though. Thanks to everyone for making me think so hard about this. I sure hope to get back there and look at all that, maybe even participate in something. At least I can rap in and do some of the easier stuff.....ha!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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prolly less writing abouting the upper half cause there is little to no adventure and placing lots of bolts on rappel when you know the route goes is like a high angle construction job.
what many people on here seem to forget about is that old style was minimum impact. the other routes up there attest to that. the fact that min impact correlates to few bolts on a slab may be contentious to some but it sure kept the adventure level high.
on the other side of the coin is what i call the smith rock syndrome where the place is more like and outdoor gym. i may like it but there should be osme places that dont turn out that way. and once a wall ha a route like that, why isnt it fair for anyone else to add their gym route to it?
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WBraun
climber
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My commentary below is in no way related to South face of Half Dome, but just an interesting perspective I came across once.
We were at Smith Rocks doing the ABC Wide World of Sports segiment on the "Monkey Face" which became the route "Backbone".
Alan Watts the local guy there who's put up a sh'it load of routes raps down and puts in a perfect plum line of bolts to protect the route that hasn't even been tried yet nor really thought out.
He just rappels in and starts drilling and bolting.
The next day they start trying to climb this thing and of course the bolts are all straight up and down, not where they should be. Most are in the wrong place, but you knew that was going to the case all along by following this logic.
Once they figure out where some of the bolts placed should be, he removes them and redrills a new hole and puts the bolt in it's proper place. Hahaha WTF???
This is how he does it, as I watched him do it on another project he started after that.
The same way ..... hahahaha
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Much Love and Respect to all those, of every viewpoint, who have made this a respectful and civil discussion. It makes us a stronger community and make the Internet a tool rather than a fool.
The ability to dialog on these issues, particularly among those who have either/both established or challenged the style and ethics of our time, creates a reference for the decisions future generations as they navigate the thorny issues that are always there.
Somebody troll Shultz into signing up for Supertopo. (Walleye?) He's been a big part of some of the notable SFHD routes and his perspective would be a good contribution. Everybody needs to waste more of their time on new addictions.
As for me, I spent the whole day and part of the night yesterday taking three less-experienced friends up the Royal Arches and am ashamed to feel a bit sore from it all. Put's all this 5.12 talk into perspective for me. (although we could fight about the ethics of the Royal Arches rap route on another thread)
From observing their experience, I can say this much..."Experiential Voltage" is personal and relative... My guess is that there has been more total "Experiential Volage" on easy routes like Royal Arches than on all the X rated routes in Yosemite combined. Those climbing at their abilty/experience level get excited/scared/adventured.
I'll bet that those who pump out on the 8 pitches of 5.12 of "Growing Up" and have to face 20-30+ foot falls on the remaining route, with whatever daylight is left, will feel plenty adventured at the end of the day, and it's an adventure that they could suffer without blind abandonment of commitments to family and loved ones. Even the Elite who could climb a "Southern Belle" only climb like that fairly rarely, as evidenced by the lack of a coveted second ascent of "Karma."
Peace
Karl
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I think it is OK that some routes, because of their nature, don't get repeated that much. I don't understand why a route has to be repeated over and over for it to be 'justified' or viewed as 'good'.
Bruce
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ha-ha
climber
location
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i love how worked up rockclimbers get over the way a peice of metal is inserted into a rock
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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If you put up a crappy rout and you don't drill or leave any iron and no one repeets it no big deal. If you put up a crap rout and litter it with pins and bolts and no one repeets it then you really just made a botch job of the whole thing.... :)
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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KARMA should be climbed again. Hopefully someone will and replace the EXISTING bolts. I wish I had the balls to do it. That route just looks awesome!
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Jim Wilcox
Boulder climber
Santa Barbara
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Lively discussion-wish my stocks had this much interest!
One small observation. It seems it is perceived that the "stye" in which Southern Belle was put up would is one in which, if imitated, would only result in another "death" route.
From what I can tell it seems that, climbing in the manner in which they did, they could have put in more bolts if they wanted, but for reasons only known to them, didn't. Now, what motivated that bit of frugalness would make for a very interesting thread.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Jim,
Drilling is hard work and it is easy to get lured into going a bit higher where the stances look better. Often they aren't.
Ken
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Werner,
That was kind of what I was driving at with my Watts and Smith comments waay up thread. I was there a lot before, and during all that stuff. Even though I could see that there was some really cool rock getting climbed, I really disliked it. It was quite a zoo there for awhile. Luckily it dropped off the map of "where everyone has to go right away." The population has dimmed compared to what it was for a few years.
Nothing gets to stay the same forever, that's for sure.
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Jim Wilcox
Boulder climber
Santa Barbara
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"Drilling is hard work and it is easy to get lured into going a bit higher where the stances look better. Often they aren't. "
Oh, I definitely agree on that! And I have nothing but respect for those willing to put it all on the line. I believe it's climbs like B-Y, Southern Belle, Karma that ultimately help define the sport and transcend the ages, regardless of how few can do it. Or want to.
I absolutely did not mean "frugal" in a disrespectful manner-quite the contrary. Those who can do 5.11+ 90ft out are a special breed. Without people like that campfire talk would really be missing something.
I'm sure Doug's climb is a fine route, but in all my humbleness I honestly feel that's the best a rap route can ever hope to be,and nothing more.
Jim
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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From another thread.
The route was completed over three weekends, with the pair often starting out as early as 5am to avoid the extreme afternoon heat. During the first weekend, Cosgrove redpointed the second pitch, a short layback/undercling leading to an off-balance move, then a difficult crack system. This 5.12b pitch is protected by two bolts.
The second weekend brought more difficult climbing. The third pitch follows a beautiful overhanging crack splitting an outside corner, beginning as an offwidth and finishing with a 5.12c thin-hands crux. The fourth pitch, perhaps the crux of the route at 5.12c/d, starts on a very technical 80-degree face that is harder than the popular boulder problem Elegant Gypsy.
Cosgrove and Schultz spent the first two days of the final weekend fixing the fifth and sixth pitches, follwing a classic offset seam through the huge headwall to flakes and an obvious step right onto more hard face climbing. On their final day they jumared the fixed lines, dropped the extra ropes, and committed themselves to the top. The last eight pitches involved tricky, runout face climbing on excellent rock.
This in no way is putting down this ascent or the efforts of of the FA party.
This climb was sieged over a period of three weekends and then the FFA party jugged (aid) the first 7-8 pitches and then climbed the upper pitches.
Not very traditional ascent if you ask me. They bent/broke the "rules" when doing the ascent and used tactics that would have been ridicule and laugh at 10-20 years before.
Sound familiar??
So who did the FFCA and is their ascent "better" than the FFA?
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Mustang
climber
From the wild, not the ranch
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Okay, bored as heck, sitting home tonight, (sigh), sick as a dog, so what do I come across?
One of the best threads ever on the taco, it took about post 550 or something for the reality of what transpired on the SFHD to be fleshed out, thus inspiring me to join the commentary. (I did say I was bored as heck).
Props to Coz for starting this thread.
Invoking the cry of foul in a culture of sport that has no set rules, only a loose code of ethics and style, which is often ignored and disrespected in regards to a lesser cause of personal fulfillment or material gain, in which a stone is climbed, without hurling personal insults or threats to remove offending hardware or such, is incredibly respectful, esp in this place. It is evident of the respect you have for the mountains and everything related. Cheers.
There are many here that I have never met, yet I know who they are in the climbing world, through many various accounts of bold first ascents, solos, friends of friends, and just intelligent and informative posting on the taco. I have much respect for many who share their experience, valuable insight and passion for the sport. Karl, Ed, Werner, Pete, Ken, Bob, Doug, Russ, Bachar, Jello, Dingus, et al. (Speaking of Jello, wondering why he hasn’t chimed in on all this? I freakin’ know LEB is lurking, feverishly.)
It is also incredibly respectful of the first ascentionists to come before the climbing community that is Super Topo, and stand among their peers with grace and honesty, in light of committing a purported, mortal climbing sin of rap-bolting a big wall in the most hallowed ground of big wall climbing.
I have not ascended the climb of topic here, perhaps I may one day, but there are many other valley ‘classics’ that are still on my list, I would have to reserve something like that for later.
This brings me to this obvious, rhetorical question, and someone probably has already asked;
Isn’t the style or ethic that a climb was ‘put up’ completely decided by the first asentionists? Of course.
What I read from DR and Sean’s posts, much discussion was held and much anguish was felt because of the decisions they had before them. I believe it was troubling for them and they were sincere in their posts regarding this, considering the backlash they would ultimately face. I feel that a cumulative of 60 or so years of climbing experience did play a major part in their decision and they made that decision with incredible sensitivity to prevailing style and ethic that is Yosemite climbing.
An intriguing statement someone had made was, to paraphrase, what this means to the future of climbing. I believe the future is already here.
Whether it is for another tick, material gain, (some high-level climbers actually have somewhat normal lives these days, families and financial commitments), publication, sponsorship, or other, I have to say that this IS the world of climbing nowadays. The name of this controversial route says it all, ‘Growing Up’.
There will always be a battle between style and ethics, who, what, where, when, and the commercialism that has become a huge, driving part of climbing.
It’s difficult to comment either way on this topic because of the complexity involved in the decision making process of the first ascentionists. I wasn’t there and I don’t share their unique experiences.
It definitely would’ve been great style if they sent from ground up, and it is also quite disturbing to hear that 1000’ of virgin stone was bolted, rap down. That said, someone of DR’s reputation and experience as well as Sean’s, have raised a good, healthy debate of how a sub-culture of people from every imaginable background, can police themselves. The fact that either hasn’t shied away from the controversy this has caused, yet have faced it as adults, humble and respectful, says much. I respect that as well.
Is there now a route that goes to the top of the SFHD instead of ‘petering out’, will more people be inclined to try an ascent because it is ‘safer’? Yes and Yes. Is it a travesty to have a big wall rap bolted on such hallowed ground? Yes. Are there hideous bolt ladders installed to connect the free climbing sections? No. Will future ascentionists care if those upper pitches were rap bolted. Probably not.
Like someone else said, tomorrow, there will still be war and killing in Iraq and Afghanistan, gas will be ever climbing beyond $4 a gal, our economy will still be in the beginning of a serious recession, hundreds of thousands of children will die of starvation and disease, and we’ll continue to destroy the health of our planet.
In geological terms, none of this about style and ethics of first ascents won’t matter. On a human scale, the opinions of others within this community will.
And yes, the cold meds have kicked in fine, thanks.
Bump, for 800
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Thoughtful post
"In geological terms, none of this about style and ethics of first ascents won’t matter. On a human scale, the opinions of others within this community will. "
When we have bigger fish to fry, we'll be a stronger community for the fish fry because of what we are accomplishing here, a departure from the divisive slag fests of the past.
PEace
karl
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Smart man that Karl.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Dam I was just about to say that.
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jstan
climber
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Have you all noticed what happens when a lake freezes over? At first there is no order with random waves and other disturbances everywhere. Then the disturbances begin to lessen and lines begin to appear. The careful phrasing of peoples’ comments with muted emotion in this thread reminds me very much of the crystallization that occurred in the climbing community in the late sixties and early seventies. Very serious discussion began appearing all over the US with no warning.
Many of you were there so I am not telling you anything you don’t already know. Those of us younger than 30 years old did not have the great good fortune to go through those trying times. Perhaps our message to the young people should be that they should hold onto their hats. This will be the most amazing ride they will ever have a chance to take. Bar none.
Once old you somehow expect never to hear anything new. Recently Werner wrote something that felt very much like leaving a cold and seemingly endless bivy to meet the warming sun.
"You got to let people be who they are."
The task of figuring out how to accomplish this will fall to each of us.
And no one will be left unchanged.
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Sluggo
Big Wall climber
zanadu
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The one positive result of this thread is that now all the ST cheaters are exposed! We knew about Bob and Kevin,but Karl,a closet rapbolter!!
Two things that are generally true about this shadowy fraternity :
1)They own a chisel and glue for thier First Descents
2)They will try to hide thier deep seated guilt with endless rationalizations about pure difficulty,communty service and fun. All to no avail.It will eat them up inside.....after all,what climber would approve of the title"rapbolter" on thier tombstone!A great pity really.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I've been thinking about runouts and the Bold Standard™. And realizing that I've been functioning here, in climbing in general, a bit like a safety monitor.
When I was in Kindergarden and they gave us colored paper and glue, I cut and pasted mine into a sash like the big kids wore who got to be crossing guards at intersections.
Later I Grew Up™ and started edging some necky runouts into my climbing. I'm a guide, remember, so as I plied my craft and kept a protective bubble of safety around my clients, I could still Get Neck-ed™ myself, just to amuse myself at work like a lot of this group seems to do by keping ST open on a corner of their desktop. So I ran it out as I rope-gunned. I did a lot of 5.4X and 5.5X and 5.6X. Miles of it over the years and through the decades.
Three times, so far, I've had very close calls.
Once was when I was in the best shape of my life, just completely tuned up at the end of a many-month climbing spree to celebrate turning 40. I was so honed that I'd been rope-gunning 5.9 cracks for a client, all day with no pro. So a 5.9X day. Those are pretty rare because I wig out and lose it pretty often trying to solo. At the end of that day I found myself soloing a 5.11X crack. Onsight. I got stuck, spent some long minutes terrified for my very life, then fell 40 feet and decked onto solid rock. Broke my back, but boy was I excited to still be alive.
Another time I was soloing the Royal Arches, just for exercise, just for fun. That was in the days before there was a fixed rope at the pendulum, so my only gear was 40' of 9 mil. That was also before the Rotten Log got pitched off. (Had he freed past it? Was that some kind of statement about ethics?)
At the time you normally had to rig a second pendulum to get to the base of the Log. There I made an incredibly stupid rope-handling error and found myself flying. Very surprised, and looking at 700 feet to the ground. Reacting at the Speed of Adrenaline™, I caught a thumb on a passing edge, slowing myself enough not to roll, bounce or slither off the traverse ledge. Again I was way excited to be alive.
But that time my thumb was grotesquely dislocated and sticking off the back of my hand. It hurt so bad I may have blacked out, but not until I had belayed myself by wedging my head between the wall and the root of an oak tree growing off the ledge.
Getting down was pretty difficult. A few 20' body raps. And a lot of downclimbing. I could grip with the other four fingers on that hand, only I discovered that the nerves in my arm were in the habit of gripping all five fingers at once, which twitched my dislocated thumb and caused waves of pain that threatened to black me out again. Not a good idea in, say, the middle of climbing down the Bearhug pitch.
I walked into the clinic just as they were closing and got a "sorry, come back tomorrow" until I showed them my thumb. They had to drug me to re-locate it. Soon I was showing off my new cast in the bar, and two days later I was back to guiding, learning how to crimp the four fingers sticking out of my cast while relaxing the thumb. It took a year for that thumb to get back to strength.
The third time, nothing happened. Eighty feet out, guiding on Temple Crag, my home turf. All I did was lose my balance for just a moment. From eighty feet below, my client likely never noticed me wobble. I grabbed the rock so tight, and a wave of adrenaline soaked me in sweat. Soon enough I climbed on, as if I had just paused to catch my breath. But I'll never forget that moment.
So I bring a certain amount of informed opinion to runouts. I'm stoked to be alive after two death falls. And I still run it out plenty.
It would be fair to say that I'm into boldness but I also embrace my Inner Safety Monitor™. Maybe that's a character flaw, an Inherent Contradiction™. Whatever. I'm the one's gotta live with it. And fortunately live is the operative term here. I find myself still very alive.
Inner Safety Monitor was talking pretty loud when we thought about what to do on that upper wall of Half Dome. "I resent that the X-Men™ have an exclusive monopoly on the slabs of the South Face," he said. "They've got a stranglehold on what is clearly some of the finest, most challenging, and most purely fun-to-climb-on stone on this particular planet."
Hmmm, that would be the only planet I get to scamper around on in this lifetime...
"No place to stop and drill," pressed Inner Safety Monitor, "Hardly even any hook placements to drill from."
"Sure looks like great climbing," whispered my Inner Fun Hog™ in the other ear.
"It ain't fair for the X-Men to get this whole wall all to themselves," Safety Monitor continued. "Are you taking anything away from them by doing a different climb in a different way? They had their experience. They're proud. I'm impressed, way impressed and humbled by their stellar Southern Belle and their awesome Karma. Proud lines, and nothing I can do detracts from that. Just like Peace takes nothing away from the Bachar-Yerian. In fact, Peace actually seems to enhance the value of a Bachar-Yerian. At the very least they're just separate lines that went their separate ways."
"C'mon, you know you want it," pipes up Fun Hog. "You know many, many others will climb it too, and be grateful to have the chance. They'll be dancin' with glee over this unbelievable stone -- everybody who'se been up there says so. They'll sweat plenty on the runouts you leave too. Ain't no sport climb. They could still break an ankle, but they'd have to land completely wrong to die. Go for it."
So we did.
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Buggs
Trad climber
Eagle River, Alaska
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DMT,
Nice post. Cool thinking that nature will return things to the norm after we are all gone. Insects are some of the sturdiest inhabiting this planet.
Buggs (not the sturdy kind)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Weird post Sluggo and what a sad place in your life you must be to call someone a cheater because they don't adhere to some style of climbing that you hold so dearly.
I would never judge a human being by the style of the routes he does or doesn't do.
Much rather base it on personal experiences..then again...I consider myself to have evolve...maybe it will happen for you in the future.
Nice post Dingus...the earth will finish it's journey...with or without us and bolts on wall mean nothing if you understand that.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"Hardly even any hook placements to drill from."
So there are in fact hook placements you could have drilled from?
Bob, has it occured to you that starting at the top and working your way down really is cheating?
Incidentally, I laughed out loud at Sluggo's reference to "First Descent".
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Yeah, I wanted to tell DMT well done too.
Now, Buggs, damnit, get away from that computer and go for a run! BWahahhaaa
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Sean Jones
climber
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Every so often I read a bit more on this topic. I keep seeing Doug's name come up. I've even seen it called Doug's route. I can't make this more clear.
I made every major call up there. Anyone who feels any way about anything should address me. I've done alot of new routes and used alot of different tactics in doing so. ALWAYS putting the finished product in mind above all other things.
I have a web site seanjonesclimbing.com all my contact info is there. Please feel free to contact me at any time.
Speaking of doing routes in many styles, Something that noone knows about is another route I did during my time up there.
Ben Montoya was the partner that helped me do all the crack pitches on the first 1/2. On lead,on "Growing Up". He then ran out of time and had to go to work. I didn't want him to leave unsatisfied so we ran over to the right side of the wall on his last climbing day and did another route. "Laid to Rest" 5.11c A1.
One unavoidable move of A1 at the bottom, Then climbed an 8 pitch new line to the summit. On sight, on lead, and no bolts for protection. Every picth wide and way physical. No falls. We hit the summit right at sunset, watched the sky explode with color, High five and head for camp.
Right as we started down, a huge rock fall cut loose from Cloud's Rest and exploded down into Tenaya canyon. We jumped up and down with excitement then continued down. A perfect day in the mountains.
I very much know what rad trad st#t is all about. And very much love that style of climbing. I've done huge runouts on first ascents in the past only to go back and retro my own routes so people would actually climb them in the future.
More than anything, that's what I want people doing on the routes I leave behind. CLIMBING them. Having fun and making it back home in one happy piece.
"Growing Up" is by far the best route I've climbed in my life. A lot of love and labor went into this project. Not to mention money and huge tax on my family. As I said before and as always, the FINISHED PRODUCT is what I take pride in most. Always will be.
When I was a teenager, a total reckless punk. Heading for jail, overdose, or death fast, Something amazing came into my life. Cimbing. It saved me, motivated me to be healthier, stronger, and taught me.
I love everthing about climbing. Every type of climbing. Not so long ago, I was at a competition(watching). The kids there were so stoked. The parents behind the kids in total support. Total support by everyone for everyone. Energy so good, you could almost see it in the air.
The bottom line is that climbing is like a big wave that's been building up for a long time. That wave is cresting now. There's huge potential in the possitive sides of climbing that can ultimately benefit our world. And surely will.
There's also sickness that comes through climbing that effects people like no other sport I've ever seen. Peoples heads turn into balloons so big that you could imagine them floating away.
I've had this happen to myself many times over. It's a constant struggle to overcome ego and try to get yourself back on track. Always will be.
Surely the more possitive sides of climbing will shine above the rest as we ride this wave.
There really is enough space out there for all of us to do things in different ways.
Take music for example, Imagine if everyone was stuck to some rule that said they all had to play everything the same. How boring would that be ?
I could write forever here but it costs me to spend the time. I'll do more as time allows. Be well everyone ! And remember to HAVE FUN !!!!
Sean.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Doug,
Some will listen, some will even understand. Others won't. In the end, you answer to yourself. I think you have, and I think you do ! Again.....good by me!
Cracko
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Sean Jones
climber
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I'll get a topo out as soon as possible. I'll try and get out some topos of the many other routes waiting to be climbed as well. I've done 91 new routes in the valley alone and hundreds more around the sierras.
The guide book's way behind so I'll try and get the most important ones out as soon as possible.
Peace,
Sean.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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the interesting thing about the whole climb is this. i firmly believe in equal opportunity climbing. if a wall is ground up let it stay that way. keeps folks honest. if a wall succumbs to the drill from above, then it is open to all who may ant to approach things that way. the end result is not always the best for the cliff. knowing this then growing up has now opened up the SFHD for the rapp and drill climbs. they will be fun, well protected,and open the palce up for the masses.
whether everyone agrees or not does not matter. if this climb stays there then like styled routes should also be allowed.
which brings another thig up. for all the nice folks being polite in their disagreement here, it speaks volumes about the WoS debacle. you see i dont think it was a debacle, only on these and the rag pages by a select few. but if WoS was a debacle then this route should be lower than that. goes to show what i thought all along, it is not the route or style that matters, but who did it.
that is the saddest thing of all.
i dont really care one way or the other, the traditional way has been dead for years, but routes like this on such a wall as this kills it even more.....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Pete....that would be a no and when you have done as many hard free routes ground up that I have without cheating (unlike you) come back and talk.
Until then...go spend 30 days on a route on El Cap pounding in pins and thinking to yourself you are not cheating.
You ever heard of the word hypocrite???
Nice post Sean and great job on the route. You seem to have level head and really love the sport of climbing. Keep cranking and take care of that wonderful family of your.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Sean, Three things, please:
1. As we write the history books, who do you feel should be listed as the FA party for this route? It seems you are minimizing Doug's contribution.
2. There have been a few calls for a topo; can you supply one? Will you?
3. Pet peeve... don't jump up my ass on this, but "alot" is not a word. The phrase you want is two words, "a lot." Much like "alittle" is not a word. Okay, I'll jump off the soapbox and let someone else have a go.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Bob, although I no longer free climb, I have put up hundreds of first ascents and first free ascents round here, all of them ground up, and not one single bolt. Some of them do not get repeated much because they are hard and scary and poorly protected. I could give a rat's ass if they are "safe". I sure as hell couldn't repeat most of them any more - too hard for me, man.
Yeah, pounding pins is cheating to a degree, for sure. But at least I start at the bottom and climb up. I would have no objections were this how Doug and Sean had climbed their route. If others can run it out, and drill bolts on lead from scary hooks, why not them? Rap bolting a big wall seems obscene to me.
"I didn't want him to leave unsatisfied so we ran over to the right side of the wall on his last climbing day and did another route. "Laid to Rest" 5.11c A1. One unavoidable move of A1 at the bottom, Then climbed an 8 pitch new line to the summit. On sight, on lead, and no bolts for protection. Every picth wide and way physical. No falls. We hit the summit right at sunset, watched the sky explode with color, High five and head for camp."
Now that's proud! Why didn't we read about that in the mags?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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PTPP wrote
"So there are in fact hook placements you could have drilled from?
Bob, has it occured to you that starting at the top and working your way down really is cheating? "
Seems to me that you're the last guy who should be calling any kettle black Pete.
Personally, I think soloing big walls would be less stress if you repeat a route by bringing 400 pounds of stuff and wake up at noon and climb one pitch a day slow enough to make sure of every inch. I think it's fine, to each his own, but style is style. You're both hammering on the rock or your name would be PassTheCamHooksPete.
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sean wrote
"Ben Montoya was the partner that helped me do all the crack pitches on the first 1/2. On lead,on "Growing Up". He then ran out of time and had to go to work. I didn't want him to leave unsatisfied so we ran over to the right side of the wall on his last climbing day and did another route. "Laid to Rest" 5.11c A1.
One unavoidable move of A1 at the bottom, Then climbed an 8 pitch new line to the summit. On sight, on lead, and no bolts for protection. Every picth wide and way physical. No falls. We hit the summit right at sunset, watched the sky explode with color, High five and head for camp. "
and
" I'll try and get out some topos of the many other routes waiting to be climbed as well. I've done 91 new routes in the valley alone and hundreds more around the sierras. "
I hope this quells fears that Sean is on an ego trip to get his name on as many routes as possible. Doesn't seems like he goes out of his way to toot his horn. "Gates of Delirium" looks classic but was kept pretty secret for awhile.
Thanks for letting some cats out of the bag.
Peace
Karl
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Man, Sean and Doug are arrogant. And Mean!
;D
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Pete...you have a right to your opinions and that really all they are. There is no wrong or right just routes that are left to climb and evaluate based on our personal likes and dislikes.
I am no were near as one dimensional as you and continue to free climb hard routes ground up and on rappel.
By your own admission ground up is not best and doesn't leave a route that is respected or even climbed by the climbing community.
When Scott did Southern Belle he deviated from the norm or what was accepted just ten years before. Styles will continue to change and evolve...sad that some climbers can't.
Pete wrote: Bob, although I no longer free climb, I have put up hundreds of first ascents and first free ascents round here, all of them ground up, and not one single bolt. Some of them do not get repeated much because they are hard and scary and poorly protected. I could give a rat's ass if they are "safe". I sure as hell couldn't repeat most of them any more - too hard for me, man.
So what is your point... your routes are crap? Should be apparent since no one makes the effort to repeat.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Coz wrote: You guys can go another 800 post but the bottom line remains, did you do it ground up or on rap. Simple.
You know the answer and when did you make the rules???
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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as someone who has done routes solo, gu, at respectable levels of difficulty i concur with coz.
stop f*#king pretending about the style.
and karl, while i appreciate your peace, your agenda of having more moderate protectable routes in yosmeite is duly noted but go do it yourself in your own way.
thanks coz.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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so bob,
you think all cliffs should be open to Rapp and Drill?
one simple answer for climbers of all ilk, one huge question for them to chew on.......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I think one issue this route has is difficult to classify. Is it "really" a big wall? Seems to be cause the South Face is nearby, but will anyone ever spend the night on the thing?
For aid climbers, "Equiping" a route is pure anathema. Easy to understand why. Aid is its own form of cheating and it needs some kind of rules or community ethic to keep it from being an engineering exercise only dependent on good weather and supplies of food, water and the ever important "Misc."
Freeclimbing is another animal and there is a wide range of styles practiced nowadays. Terrain, intent, and difficultly has dictated style on many ascents.
The guys who put up Dakshina (another proud bold route) on North Dome, arguably a similar kind of route to the SFHD have their dignity but tell me they regret not putting up a route that anybody wants to repeat.
The upper face is 10c. Well within the ability of Sean and others to go fire. You can accuse them of sacrificing the ground up ethic for the sake of making sure they were establishing the best line and a line people would like to climb, but I really don't think this is a matter of cowardice.
Wonder how many of the death route climbers, now that they may be wiser or have "something to lose" would repeat their own routes even if they were still in shape for them.
This thread will break 1000 for sure cause somebody will go climb the route soon and we'll have more to chew on.
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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800 Mine! Onsight!
Eat your cyber hearts out. No hacking required.
(Although I posted the first sentence and hit "Post" you might not know it, but I'm adding the rest of this in "Edit" mode. Is this questionable style?
So many questions in life, so few black and white answers
Peace
karl
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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COZ this question was asked up thread and I wanted to ask it again. Have YOU ever RAP BOLTED a ROUTE!!????
Thanks Blair....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Coz, anyone who chops a rout without climbing it first is the biggest coward of all. JMOP;)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Hawkeye wrote: so bob,
you think all cliffs should be open to Rapp and Drill?
I think it really up to the FA party and the route itself unless it private land.
Rap-bolting is nothing new to the Valley.
Until any of you own Half Dome...then you can have an opinion or how and where a route should go...just like me...when you own it...then you can dictate what or what not happen!
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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I just happened by this place, I do not climb, I am a Kayaker by nature.
But maybe an outsiders viewpoint might be refreshing.
Did you feel any guilt while placing the bolts?
That is the ultimate answer.
And nobody knows but you.
To me, Half Dome is the most recognizable piece of granite on Planet Earth.
Then El Cappy.
As a guitar player also, I never copy Hendrix.
Some things you just leave alone, out of pure respect.
Half Dome is the Jimmy Hendrix of the Rock World.
But then again,
A tree fell in the river near the Class 3 Chilli Bar run on the South Fork American.
The traditional view of the Sierra Club is "Don't you dare touch it, no matter how dangerous!"
Well, a week later, a girl falls out a raft and gets snagged in the tree.
Tree removed one day later.
Would the lack of bolts endangered somebody somewhere down the line?
If so, then WTF?
You nEed the Hubble Telescope to see the damage, the friggin tourist ani't gonna know, unless they read Climbing, eh?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hawkeye wrote
"and karl, while i appreciate your peace, your agenda of having more moderate protectable routes in yosmeite is duly noted but go do it yourself in your own way"
Why should I? I'm not about telling others what to do and I'm not doing as I'm told. I'm sick of the head games. I don't bolt and I don't chop. That's just my style and I'm fine with it.
There were huge slag fests over the Dawn Wall. Who now thinks it wrong? Wings of Steel was a big slag fest and nobody has repeated it.
Coz and Kurt power-drilled and at least one said that was fine (after apologizing profusely at the time) Was it necessary? Lots of people hand drill big bolts.
Maybe it's style, maybe it's ethics, but it just seems to me that the "standard" is really no standard. Everybody cheats in their own way complementing their own strengths and hiding their particular weakness.
Does it lower the adventure to fix lines and go back after rest and a case of beer? Yeah. Does it lower the adventure to aid then go back and free? Yeah. Does it lower the adventure to climb boldly below your limit? Yeah.
I just got back from India and saw monkey's climb 5.16. Being a gifted climber isn't automatically a noble thing. We all make choice of what we're doing for ourselves or contributing to others and then others judge us according to their own conditioning.
I'm about "live and let live" I've lived in Yosemite almost 30 years and predictions of the moral demise of the sport are greatly premature. Everything is just fine if you don't have your panties in a bunch.
Peace
Karl
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Blair -
Perhaps Coz has rapbolted a route, but I would wager he's never rapbolted a big wall. I think this might be a large part of the issue.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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How you want to define "big wall?" Is Snake Dike a big wall?
Peace
Karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Scott wrote: Bob,
Who made the rules?
Answer.... Newton
Yes I rap bolted two 5.14 in Joshua tree, Both little cliffs of rotten rock. I have also put up 13d on lead.
I rap bolted because the holds where so fragile, I didn't want to break them with a hook.
I took a lot of sh#t for it, and a few punches.
Newton wasn't a climber...try again.
You climbed the way you wanted and you should either feel proud or ashamed. Wanting everyone to do as you is unrealistic and to me...the sign of a ego-maniac.
You don't own or have the authority to tell anyone how to climb on Half Dome...you have a opinion just like the rest of us.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Chopping a route, regardless of how or why it was put up, is an act of pure egotism which is destructive and irresponsible. Far worse, in my opinion, then the aleged egotism that established the route.
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WBraun
climber
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Authority
Ah yes, now who has the authority?
No me, not you, not the govt.
So who has?
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Mustang
climber
From the wild, not the ranch
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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I think the grade is generally a pretty good indicator of big wall status, although I'm sure there are a few differences of opinion here.
Snake Dike, to me, doesn't seem like a big wall: It's eight pitches, 240 meters, and is Grade II or III. By comparison, the average number of pitches for big walls on the SuperTopo Yosemite Big Wall page (http://www.supertopo.com/routebeta/bigwalls.html); is ~20.
Also, many/most of those seem to be grade V or VI.
I'd think Growing Up is a V or a VI. Could be wrong! I'm not sure how easy the clean aid is, obviously.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Your honor I rest my case.
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pimp daddy wayne
climber
The Bat Caves
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"You climbed the way you wanted and you should either feel proud or ashamed. Wanting everyone to do as you is unrealistic and to me...the sign of a ego-maniac. "
"You don't own or have the authority to tell anyone how to climb on Half Dome...you have a opinion just like the rest of us."
You hit the nail on the head my hommie...........
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WBraun
climber
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No he didn't hit any nail on the head, he's just swinging the hammer through the air.
He's unconsciously taking the role of authority himself, and now telling someone else they have no authority.
Thus .....
Artificially trying to construct a civilization based on interdependent self-interest on the material platform easily collapses the social peace and harmony.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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What are you really saying Werner?
Is the Trad nature of climbing reality built into the cosmos, or where does any authority to climb anything come from?
Peace
Karl
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I'm about "live and let live" I've lived in Yosemite almost 30 years and predictions of the moral demise of the sport are greatly premature. Everything is just fine if you don't have your panties in a bunch.
Peace
Karl
Word!!
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WBraun
climber
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That will be your search Karl and the rest of em included.
Otherwise ..... widespread social conflict and chaos will prevail and remain perpetually.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Werner,
"That will be your search Karl and the rest of em includedd.
Otherwise ..... widespread social conflict and chaos will prevail and remain perpetually."
I respect you, I really do.....but I fear you have lived in Yosemite too long, a place where too many have assumed a "divine authority" for too long! Conflict and choas will prevail only in the minds of those who assume this "divine authority". The rest of us will smile, and go on about our buisness !!!
Cracko
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Werner wrote
"Otherwise ..... widespread social conflict and chaos will prevail and remain perpetually."
You mean "same as it ever was" or some new level of social conflict and chaos as it concerns climbing?
Peace
Karl
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Maybe they should tape all the holds on the upper wall of GU a certain color eh? Green route, Red route, yellow route, I mean if we truly want a PC route back there, that would be the way to do it. Half Dome isn't the Pacific Edge, Mission Cliffs or any other Climbing gym in the country. At least not yet. BTW what's next back there boy's?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nobody's saying this route is a bold example of perfect style and risk.
Neither should anyone say it's a tightly bolted gym-style creation.
You can call a spade a spade but the Ace of Spades isn't the same as the 3 of Spades.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Karl "same as ever"
and Cracko, for you ..... -:)
"The atom is described as an invisible particle, but when six such atoms combine together, they are called a trasareṇu, and this is visible in the sunshine pouring through the holes of a window screen."
"It is calculated that if a second is divided into 1687.5 parts, each part is the duration of a truṭi, which is the time occupied in the integration of eighteen atomic particles. Such a combination of atoms into different bodies creates the calculation of material time. The sun is the central point for calculating all different durations."
Have fun; hahahaha
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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WB,
Could you elaborate?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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I knew it Werner, that's what I was thinking all along....
Either that or you've gone all the way around the bend.
They let you be in charge of stuff out there?
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chossyslab
climber
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First off, i havent read all the posts here but have read many (including all of Doug's and Sean's).
Second, earlier it was asked by someone (i forget who) for some of the younger crowd to chime in so i offer my opinion albeit late in the discussion.
So here goes: I for one think that the rock should dictate the ascent. You dont go into a climb with a form in mind of how you want the route to be and shape the route to fit those ideas. Instead, you go into a climb, GROUND UP, and if the rock says run it out, you run it out and if it says this sh*t is blank and im not even gonna give you any place to set a hook and drill than you better be ready to drill from a stance or you rap off and come back when your ready for that. Its not about making routes accessible to the masses or we would just chip our way up everything so that my grandma could do laps on valley "classics." We arent trying to turn yos into disneyland here (even though the valley kinda is already).
That said i think it's also circumstantial. I went sport climbing today at a local crag that has many routes which were bolted on rap and, honestly, i have no problem with that. Just as i have no problem with coz rap bolting a short jtree line. Things are different when you factor in the adventure and the grandeur of a big wall. It just doesn't feel right.
Those things said, I have much respect for you guys (DR and Sean) and some people here, i think, have been unecessarily hard on you. Don't let some of the comments on here get too much into your head, for you have done some great and very influential things for the climbing community over the years and we should all never forget that. I dont want to take anything away from you guys accept for the fact that I disagree with the way in which the upper part of this route was climbed. Sorry guys but i think you fu*ked up on this one. Just doesnt feel right.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Spare me the rhetoric Baba, Good lines back there are like trout in the Merced...steadily becoming rare and elusive. The difference is once The SFHD is tapped out there is no route hatchery program to replenish supply for future generations.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Kenny wrote
"Spare me the rhetoric Baba, Good lines back there are like trout in the Merced...steadily becoming rare and elusive. The difference is once The SFHD is tapped out there is no route hatchery program to replenish supply for future generations."
This is a text forum. How I'm supposed to spare you any rhetoric?
So what if lines are elusive? If all the lines are saved for future Death Route pioneers, is that supposed to be a good thing? Is it SO important that EVERY line wait for some hardman to put up a death route that one or two parties will repeat in 20 years?
Want to be a stud? Solo the damn thing. The opposite approach isn't available to the humble guy only climbing 5.12 that doesn't want to die on Karma or Southern Belle. Something for everybody.
I'm just a little too selfish to allow the Elite to control my priorities like that. The Studs have no shortage of place to have fun or adventure. If they don't get to monopolize every opportunity, my heart doesn't bleed.
Peace
Karl
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Mustang
climber
From the wild, not the ranch
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"No tree has branches so foolish as to fight among themselves". Ojibway Tribe.
But climbers sure do...
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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That rock belongs to the American Indians.
Nobody should F with it.
Sharma eats oganic grains fromStaff of Life Bakery in Santa Cruz, what, organic wheat produces a Champion, what a shocker, ehh?
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Ragz
climber
Tartarus, black hole of the internet
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Oh come on folks, almost 900.
I'm certain there are a lot more of you out there that have absolutely nothing to say.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Scott Cosgrove,
I've been climbing for 20 years now. For the past decade it's become my job. I FEED my children by climbing F#cking rocks. Most people really like me as a person. Probly because every day I go way out of my way to take care of and be nice to as many people as possible. As I said in an earlier post, My home # is 209-379-2870.
When you got nailed for power drlling on El Cap. F#CKING EL CAP !!! I remember being bummed for you guys. I would never start up a post or do anything to try and bring you or anyone else down for anything. Ever !
Not to mention rap bolting in Joshua Tree. So what if it's only a small route on chossy rock. You also set an example in a WAY high profile area. Another thing I don't do is bolt anything with bad flexy holds that may break. Because when they do break, You tend to end up with yet another route that only really served the first ascentionist.
Again, I only remember being inspired by those lines and wanting to climb them. As a young climber I used to have "HEROS" People who inspired me to climb. You were one of those people. 20 years later and 17 of those spent in Yosemite has changed me entirely. The only hero I have in climbing now is a 5 year old boy who climbs because It's fun and feels good.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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When I look at the history of climbing in Yosemite, and I mean just Yosemite, the prevailing trend was, when putting up FA's on the big walls, to try and make your FA in better style than the previous ascent(s).
After Harding's ascent of the Nose, Robbins, Frost, Pratt, Chouinard all tried to put up FA's on El Capitan using fewer fixed ropes, people and drilled anchors. You can quibble a bit on what happened when, but the general feeling among the pioneers was that you tried to do the next FA in better style than the last FA.
It is clear to me that Sean Jones' route on SFHD was done in much poorer style than any of the other FA's on that wall. Maybe his style created a route that is climbable by more people, but the issue for me is that he used a poorer style than his predecessors.
Bruce
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pimp daddy wayne
climber
The Bat Caves
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,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Buggs
Trad climber
Eagle River, Alaska
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I deleted the offensive posts and am very sorry if I hurt anyones feelings...
I did puke after the Cookie though, just ask Survival.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Oh God,
I'm posting again already. Getting sucked in. Maybe I can just spend the rest of my life here, drinking booze and punching in complaints about people I've never met and routes I've never climbed.
Maybe never even climb again. I can just sit here and do the most important thing in climbing. Talking Sh#t.
If I seem upset, Im really not. Im still me and still possitive. Just up late and speaking my mind.
I just wanted to mention something about "damage to the rock"
If you were to take the time and actually climb any of the many routes I've established in Yosemite or anywhere else. That's hundreds of routes now, you will never come across a glued hold, manufactured hold, and will never plug your fingers into a pin scar. Then go climb Serenity Crack and every other trade route and give me sh#t.
Do I have the right to erase any of these chizzled messes. I think not. They're fun to climb too. I'm not claiming to have made no mistakes by any means. There's a few bolts on Gates of Delerium that upon reclimbing my own route, I thought, What the f#ck was I thinking. Was I scared ? too high on coffee ? or just plain out of my mind ?
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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You guys still dont get it.
Half Dome is the most sacred rock on Earth!
Don't fuk it up with bolts!
Period.
Go to Utah and fuk that place up.
Pleasze, not Yosemite!
Enuff tourists have already messed it up.
Rocjk climbers are becom0onmg tourists.
This is a bad trend.
But it all started with Senbtinal, watch Western Frontiers, r5emember the guy swinging the goldline from one dome to the next?
That was the first controversey, and it still goes on!
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Sean Jones
climber
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Healyje,
You're right about bigger fish to fry. Ther's so many children starving in our world and so many other things or "real" mountains to climb.
Thanks for reminding me to get back to myself and put my time where it really needs to be.
Again, THANKS !!!
Sean.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona, Spain
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bump
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sean,
Those comments weren't directed at you or even Growing Up in particular - they were directed solely at the increasing use of that argument to justify any use of bolts at all. I haven't heard you use the argument unless I missed it.
The issue I have with Growing Up is what I stated relative to the notions of 'development' and 'community service'. That, and the fact that many if not most of our 'practices' start out employed on cutting edge lines - and then quickly propogate back to every grade, condition, and rock without reasoned use or moderation. As others have said, and I can't argue against, the train has left the station on many aspects of this discussion, but Growing Up establishes a clear precedent of a magnitude that has not really seen as to date. In that respect it will no doubt accelerate that train to some degree or another.
The argument you, Doug, and Karl are others are using, which Doug summed up nicely with 'safety monitor' vs. 'fun hog' would be fine accept for the fact that it can, is, and will be used to justify and rationalize any manner of things. And in combination with 'development' and 'community service' there really is no limit to what can be claimed to be justified on public lands. The idea that the use of this rationale for rap-bolting and sport climbing in general can somehow be constrained to 'appropriate' uses is not at all borne out by our own history - the train will more likely end up in a wreck of proportions even Bob ends up dismayed with before it comes to rest. Will you guys and Growing Up be responsible? No, clearly it's human nature at the controls, but I suspect this does smooth the tracks ahead a bit.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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He who litters Half Dome , will someday pay the Ultimate Price.
Asd part iroquoi indian, I have to say that I totally object to these vandels actions, they should be arrested, like Dano, only he deeerved tbe set free , because he is a Indian Stud.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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All big rocks are sacred. Even little rocks have spirits in them.
And yes, Buggs did gag at the Cookie.......
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"In other words, if you didn't have a rope from the top, you'd have to climb the thing?"
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Bruce wrote
"It is clear to me that Sean Jones' route on SFHD was done in much poorer style than any of the other FA's on that wall. Maybe his style created a route that is climbable by more people, but the issue for me is that he used a poorer style than his predecessors"
I don't know how clear that is. "much" poorer style with 8 ground up 5.12 pitches, only a tiny bit of aid with no heads and no pins? Was Harding's route in better style with its bat-hook ladders up no line of weakness and a rescue to boot? Why? Because it was early on? What about that argument of saving the routes for the time when they could be done right? Putting up a free route of that scale is a different animal in a sense, and here's why:
The Warbler wrote
"Freeclimbing walls is different, and fairly new in Yosemite really, at least in the 15 pitch plus range. The Hubers work their El Cap masterpieces from the top down, and do so because it's the only practical way to route find and work out the freeclimbing on the upper sections. Their goal is to find and free a line on a huge wall, and they do what it takes to prepare themselves and the route for a final ascent. That doesn't involve rapbolting on El Cap partly because most of what they're climbing is cracks, but their top down methods have gone unquestioned, to my knowledge. Other Valley free wall climbs have been done that way also - with no fuss from the community. "
As far as I can tell, this route is hardly a new standard of tactic. Arcturus was just freed on Half Dome using rap-bolting and top-down tactics. I don't know how many of the new bolts on free variations on El Cap were placed from hooks or stances or ground up but I'd bet VERY FEW. Is it really so much better style to just "Don't ask, don't tell?"
El Cap has been festooned with thousands of feet of fixed lines in the recent trend of freeing aid routes. We do need to talk about spoiling the adventure of others by leaving fixed lines up during times when they aren't needed, and that discussion has begun on other threads in the past.
HealyJ, it's true that issues can't just be dismissed with the wave of a hand, but the seriousness of an issue, in many cases, is pretty subjective and needs to be taken into account as well. Is rap bolting worse than power bolting? Was hang-dogging worse than drilling from hooks?
When does style depart from a personal choice and become a community crime?
Peace
Karl
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WanderlustMD
Trad climber
DC Area (it's as bad as you've heard)
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Sean, I think some (or lots) of us would be interested in a topo (I know this was mentioned previously).
This is an interesting issue, not sure where I stand. Both sides make good arguments.
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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I'm just here to post my name in this veryyyy important thread.
:-o
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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This question was asked before, and seemingly unanswered (correct me if I am wrong):
What is the bolt count (anchors inc./ not inc.) on this fine homage to the people of the climbing world ?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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coz,
Why are you arguing about the rules of this competition? The rules haven't been written. Some of the players don't even think it is a competition.
You look like a guy in the middle of a football field with a bat and a glove, figuratively speaking, of course.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Coz wrote: I do not care if people approve of my behavior or not, I simply think what you did was wrong in my book, and by the laws of nature.
If you don't... why should Sean worry about anyone approving of his behavior??
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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El Cap has been festooned with thousands of feet of fixed lines in the recent trend of freeing aid routes. We do need to talk about spoiling the adventure of others by leaving fixed lines up during times when they aren't needed, and that discussion has begun on other threads in the past. --Karl Baba
I could not agree more! A line of bolts 1,000 feet up (or 100 feet up for that matter) is invisible but walking around the base of EC in the spring and seeing lines hanging "until they return" is an eyesore.
Back on GU... whatever I may feel about the FA, I see NO VALUE in yanking the bolts. They're there. They exist. The route exists and always will (okay, for you geologically-inclied pundits... not always.) Yankin' 'em does not erase the route, it only lengthens this thread. If they get yanked I'll put a few postcards on the line to say the route will return.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Fattrad--
What do you think your own contributions to this discussion have done for your position in the community?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Fat wrote: You ask why? Because in my brief time in the world, I've learned that the quality of one's life is measured by the number of friends you have and the amount of respect one has in the "community". Seems that Sean and Doug have lost some of that difficult to earn respect.
I say good riddance...if they judge Sean & Doug on only this issue and not the collective of their lives.
I will continue to respect Doug for all he has done for climbing. He seems like a wonderful human being.
Don't know Sean but from what I read he also seems to a kind and caring person who loves his family and the sport of climbing. They have commimited no crime...period.
Also I glad my close friends don't think like you.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Werner, If the Vedic Theory is correct, a Quadroquark--composed of 4 Quarks/Dvyanaks--will be discovered. This would imply, 2 Anu = 1 Dvyanak may be incorrect. This could be true since 1 Dvyanak is part of the composition of vayu. Perhaps, then, vayu is a combination of 2 Dvyanak. Anyways, the point needs clarification.
Much like a topo of GU would help in the clarification of the route.
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WBraun
climber
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Fattrad
I haven't lost one inkling of respect for Sean, Doug, wildone, Caylor, the girl (sorry if I forgot your name) and any others that were on that gowing up project.
I respect the right to independent free will to act and choose.
Independent free will is impossible for mortals to stop.
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jstan
climber
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Well, I am beginning to lose respect. The problem is right there in front of everyone and no one has the sack to look it in the face.
We need, consciously, to leave room for each other.
We don't leave room for others when we feel everyone can change any piece of rock as they damn well please. A society is formed when individuals leave room for each other.
Even apes know that.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Coz, are you smoking crack?? how the heck would GU take away from your rout?? If anything it makes your route look even more hardcore. When will you guys learn the key lesson in life?
It is not what the other guy/gal does. Its what you do that counts.
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Okay folks, I'm takin' bets. How soon will this thread
not die and hit 1000?????
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jstan, dosen't that sound a bit like bullshit when you say we have to leave room for each other but take sides against Doug and Sean because you don't like their style as much as your style???
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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jstan makes an interesting point. How do we do it? The resources are after all, quite finite.
Maybe by not publishing the climb. Novel. Solves the problem of the FA. Then everybody can do FAs, since he does not publish anything (including spewing about it to his buddies).
Start over. Any existing climbs "do not exist", and any of those "previously but now non-existent" climbs can be done in the style desired by the next FA.
Oops. Somebody wants to own a climb. Somebody wants a legacy.
Oh well.
What is the alternative? I have to buy a guide book to make sure I do not climb somebody else's climb in my style instead of his. OK, I can do that, but then I can't write about it. Do we have a "copyright" issue? If so, is it about the book, or the climb? If it is the book, it is about money, if it is the climb it is about ME.
Oh well.
That leaves the coz's and the not coz's forever in dispute because they simply are not capable of forging an agreement. A thousand posts! The only thing that will keep it from 2000 is how long it takes to post or edit posts.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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We should remember that. (1) the top down exploration and installation that went on here was put into motion only after the ground up climbing was no longer free-able. It seems that the FIRST ASCENT party decided to SACRAFICE their ground up ascent in order to cause less of a impact on the stone. (2) They easily could of just drilled and drilled and drilled until they unlocked the puzzle. In the end I believe the decision was a good one if one had an idea that it may (AGAIN) cause less of a impact to the stone. I think that COMPLETING Growing Up in this mixed style was a good calculated way of seeing the future. Its not OK to just run out and GRID BOLT and I don't think anyone wants to or is going to. It looks like both sides believe that GROUND UP is a BETTER way to climb. Mixed style to leave behind something that was complete and clean.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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SteveW Wrote:
Okay folks, I'm takin' bets. How soon will this thread not die and hit 1000?????
It's knott a question whether it will hit 1000 - it's whether it wiill hit 1000 TODAY...
So nobody answered my question of how far apart the rap-bolts were placed on the upper pitches.
-because if I decided to rap from the top so I could "redpoint" those pitches, I would be highly
annoyed if there was any run-out at all.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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I think you have to a complete idiot to think that Sean, Doug and Wilddone could not have gotten up this thing from the ground up. Once you have a bolt kit and enough determimation...the result is pretty much known.
Their ascent took the path of less impact and in their eyes higher quality. Let history be the judge of Sean effort and not some self appointed posse!
Fat wrote: And societies collapse when bare minimums of ethical behavior are allowed to fall by the wayside. Rapbolting on a bigwall was my minimum.
But not the killing of thousands of innocent Iraq's.
You have really big issues.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona, Spain
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bump. Werner - mellow out an smoke a joint
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jstan
climber
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OK Tradman, show me where I took sides on the SFHD. Show me where and I will admit to being full of BS. If you can't show me you will need to admit you are full of BS. Called spin these days.
Some of you may be too young to know that decades ago I had the pleasure of working with Doug on a pretty big problem. It was a whole lot bigger problem than is this crappy little land use problem we have suffered with for the last thirty years.
Frankly, it is hard to believe intelligent and capable people like ourselves are behaving as we are.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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coz,
Now I hear that you're really listening to Sean. Thanks. It makes a big difference.
And I hear that you still disapprove. That you think Growing Up should be chopped, but you're not going to do it. That's fine too. Better than before. The discussion goes on.
I too think -- I'm saying it again -- Southern Belle is one of the greatest routes in the Valley. I too think that its stature is only increased by having Growing Up share the wall. Now folks can climb on the same rock without facing the seriousness of your climb, so they get to better appreciate what you guys did. Hats off to you once again.
I'm pretty impressed that you decided to leave the Belle runout as a tribute to Walt. And I'm even more impressed -- a little shocked, even -- that you were seriously considering adding bolts to it so more "people would do it."
I know you don't approve the style of Growing Up, but I think now that it exists, your goal of making the wall accessible to more climbers is realized. And your bold memorial to Walt is preserved. I think even enhanced.
I hear that you care passionately about climbing. So do I. We agree on that, and it's a good place to start.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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tradman, style and method are used synonomously, as are style and flair/panace'.
Semantics make a difference when making either points or accusatory statements.
Before we call in the style police, we had better be sure which squad is required.
edit: Thanks for posting that, DR, THAT reason may be in better style.
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WBraun
climber
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I remember when Kauk rap bolted TKO. A lot of people said they lost all respect for Ron.
I never lost any respect for him, the guy has saved my life at times out there.
Lose respect for someone over a climb?
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona, Spain
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I think it's time to open up a discussion about the proper strategy to make post 1000 on this thread. I know I want to be there! BTW, I actually went beer drinking and climbing with Walt Shipley, and I'm pretty sure he would be worrying about the question of the 1000th post, too. Maybe a good way to do it would be to post a lot, and then delete the required number ???
Sorry about this stupidity, I couldn't help myself. Free will got the better of me. Ciao mein.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Warbler,
thanks for your thoughts on the evolution of climbing in Yosemite. Clearly El Cap is now much different than it was back in the 60's. My point was that, given how few routes there are on the SFHD, I kind of viewed SFHD as the El Cap of the 60's namely a stone which is still in the infancy of its climbing so the "do it in better style" that was employed by Robbins, Chouinard, Pratt, Frost down the Valley may still be a reasonable opinion.
Bruce
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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JStan wrote
"We need, consciously, to leave room for each other.
We don't leave room for others when we feel everyone can change any piece of rock as they damn well please. A society is formed when individuals leave room for each other.
Even apes know that."
Since it seems you were misunderstood, who have you lost respect for. And are we leaving room for future first ascensionists or while we're considering each other as climbers, does it possibly include leaving room for the less elite as well?
Peace
Karl
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Bob D, I totally agree that Sean could have done the upper wall on lead. He should have. If the finished product turned out to be a death route he could have returned to make it safe on rappel. By his own admission he's done this before. In my opinion that would have been the example to set for the future. A selfless act by a Yosemite f.a. pioneer. Win win for all
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Karl: "And are we leaving room for future first ascensionists or while we're considering each other as climbers, does it possibly include leaving room for the less elite as well?"
This is where scope creep will happen with that rationale in a decade or so when we are fighting via ferratas on public land. We're all 'elites' as rock climbers and once gym and sport climbing have saturated popular culture it will begin to spread out horizontally to a broader public constituency that will claim an entitlement to let their 'inner fun hog' free on risk-free lines as 'climbers'.
Sharing the rock with the 'less elite' will sooner or later end up redefining climbing and climbers in the US to include via ferratas. When they start making the leap from private to public lands using this rationale its proponents will be using the same arguments seen here as well as claiming it is all just a matter of 'style'. But maybe aging sport climbers will split - a few fighting against via ferratas with the majority deciding they're great fun and surely there's room for everyone's inner fun hog.
An over-reaction? Only time will tell, but so far time has been fairly telling.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona, Spain
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someone needs to bump this so that the next few posts get some visibility. You're welcome
Edit: Shit! Off by 10!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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JStan wrote
"We need, consciously, to leave room for each other.
We don't leave room for others when we feel everyone can change any piece of rock as they damn well please. A society is formed when individuals leave room for each other.
Even apes know that."
John, the tone of this post sounds anti bolt to me and therefore by default anti GU?? please correct me if I am wrong?
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jstan
climber
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Karl:
I don't feel misunderstood at all. "I am not proud, or tired." (As you can tell, I think Arlo Guthrie hit very closely to the essential requirement for being human.) Gosh, even being ignored does not bother me. Besides, I am quite used to that.
What does bother me? To see people failing to rise to their true potential. Tell me people who are able to go god awful distances above their protection just to see if they can do it, are not incredibly able. Go ahead. Tell me. A little disturbed, perhaps. But if it rings their bell, who am I to complain?
So here we have people of that sort who have almost no understanding of how to relate to another person. Now I was in that place once so I have a little understanding. Here is what I can tell you. There is no need for it to be this way. None at all. I will tell you the story of how I made the transition.
In the late sixties all I saw in the Gunks was ever worsening destruction of both the rock and of the vegetation. Right at the start I got really clear with myself that only one thing was important, that the area and the people be supported. Nothing else mattered. Even in the slightest. One bright spring day I put blue ribbons on the laurel so I could stand back to see if trails might possibly protect the vegetation. The next day Richard Petritz and three of his friends who had taken down all the ribbons, came up to me and ripped me a new one asking just what the hell I thought I was doing. I had known unilaterally modifying a shared resource, even momentarily, was the biggest sin a person could commit. I think we all know that. When he let go at me lots of things went through my mind but I was clear I did not want the Gunks to suffer, and so had to respond real time. It popped into my head, "I need to stand in Richard's shoes, NOW." I managed to do that at least partially and over the years I was forgiven my many errors. And there were many. I am very clear that Richard acted as a great supporter of the cliff and of its protection when he and his friends acted as they did. He taught me the most important lesson of my life.
We need to stand in the shoes of our friends and we need to leave room for ALL.
It can be done, and you are the people to do it.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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John, is this new route "Growing Up", "a pox in Vulgaria"?
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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incredible thread
great discussion everyone!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dingus, as Bob has noted, I don't possess the stature to carry something as heavy as a 'moral imperative' - I'm simply selfish, or what Bob seems to call an elitist. But I actually consider myself more misanthropic than 'elitist' - which always somehow sounds as if I may be a better climber than I am. And, however attractive that idea, the truth is I really just don't care for most of these folks, let alone suffering the idea of bolting rocks as an open invitation for the hordes to come climbing. There's something horribly and horizontally pedestrian about it all to me, regardless of who does what at the top of our already quite large pyramid of climbers.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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I wonder how they do it in..
FINLAND!!
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Wildlife managers use licensing to limit hunting of "scarce resoures". If FA's are endangered in YV, perhaps one should have to apply to a lottery system to put one up.
Won't prevent extinction, but might delay it a bit.
:-)
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Whoa, talk about splitting hairs.
Now Dirty Kenny is saying that it would somehow be better if the route had been retro bolted than rap bolted?
Better for who? Shouldn't it be up to the first ascentionist what they want their experience to be?
From a rock/enviromental perspective, the two approachs are equal.
And I'd suspect they are exactly equal for people repeating the route. Once enough bolts are in to make a route "safe", I'm pretty sure most people aren't going to care how they got there.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Bolts have very little environmental impact, realistically. The potential impact that is most concerning to me is people deciding rap-bolting any big wall is appropriate, and then having some of the cleaner areas being overwhelmed by climbers who don't really care about the stone or their impact.
Probably won't happen. I hope.
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jstan
climber
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Tradman:
My adherence to a general principle does not by extrapolation equal my condemnation of a specific. As has been pointed out many times here, condemnation of a specific requires many competing factors be carefully weighed. My point is modification of a shared resource has to be considered extremely important and should be weighed before the fact. (What I personally would do in any situation is in practical terms, simply irrelevant.)
Oh, I think neither of us has flung pooh.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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This thread is giving me nightmares!
This morning I dreamt that I was forced to down solo Growing Up so that others could chop it behind me. The lower half of it was filled with all kinds of contrived bolt placements and artificial holds. Half way down the waist band of my harness came undone inexplicably (why was I wearing a harness soloing anyway). When I got to the bottom The Archers of Loaf had just released a hit song that was playing on every car radio that drove by. The bottom of the route came out of an opera house. I woke up in a sweat. What does it all mean?!
I think I need to quit ST for sanity's sake. Aw, who am I kidding.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Back here in the East they built a golf course, a BIG hotel and a bunch of condos right up against one of our premier cliffs. The hotel has No Parking signs for climbers by the trailhead. They do graciously allow us to park by the dumpsters. All the bolts on the entire cliff wouldn't fill one garbage can in that big hotel yet we still to this day have bitter bolt wars. Where were the bolt choppers when that hotel and the golf course were going up? why don't they chop the hotel? the only logical answer is that climbers as a whole are insane and bolt choppers in praticuler are generaly cowards. They usualy work on rainy days and often don't own up to their destruction but mostly they pick on something small that they think they can get away with......
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jstan
climber
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Whitehorse?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Tradman,
That's the scale and scope argument again. Climbers clearly didn't control the property in question anymore and likely couldn't stop the development anymore than they could keep condos at a five mile distance from Red Rock. One doesn't really have much to do with the other or, if you think they are that tightly coupled, then if anything I'd turn it around and say if you don't have a problem with the bolts then what is your problem with the resort? Pretty much the same fun-first mindset at the cliff.
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jstan
climber
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In the 60's climbers could probably have bought the land the hotel is on presently. There are lots of worthwhile things one can use to beat one's self up on. This is not one of them.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Yes Whitehorse; I think the reasons are much more allong the lines that it is easier to fight other climbers than it is to take on real estate developers.. healy, how can you compare a bucket of bolts to a resort with a bad septic that stinks mightly on hot days? The bolt choppers really are cowards and bullys. The mark of a bully is allways that they choose the fights they know they can either win or at least not get themself hurt.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: That's the scale and scope argument again. Climbers clearly didn't control the property in question anymore and likely couldn't stop the development anymore than they could keep condos at a five mile distance from Red Rock. One doesn't really have much to do with the other or, if you think they are that tightly coupled, then if anything I'd turn it around and say if you don't have a problem with the bolts then what is your problemwith the resort? Pretty much the same fun-first mindset at the cliff.
Joe...take your train of thought to were it is really is needed in the Valley...starting with Camp Four, El Cap or Everest Base Camp and the many other areas that climbers have polluted and soiled....come back when your cure all the problems climbers have create there.
This one route is not the demise of climbing or all of it
resources. You continue to blame the safe crowd (sport climbers) for Armageddon. Doom and Gloom seems to be your style.
People are going to recreated and hopefully used the resources responsibly and with other users needs and wants.
Did Scott & the other folks who established routes on SFHD do this...makes one wonder...doesn't it??
Just because you have a certain myopic look at how people should protect and climb...doesn't mean others have to follow.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Tradman, with no problem at all, though I'd have been fighting both if I were a local. Exactly the same question if someone came and threw six via ferratas up the rock - how can you compare a small coil of wire and a few wrungs to a resort? I think they are all problems, I just try to argue each in it's appropriate context.
Edit: Bob, I already gave my opinion to your last question upthread a bit.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Many of us try, to greater or lesser extents to contribute positively to climbing, the environment, and related issues.
The sticking point is often in what we believe "others" should be doing.
We're not all on the same path but often on the same stone. How to move on together?
Peace
Karl
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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healyje, your crag already has a via ferrata on it.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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I guess I don't get what you are saying Joe...are you blaming the use of bolts as climbers having too much fun...or blaming the use of bolts for the crowds at cliffs...or blaming the use of rap-down bolts as the demise of climbing or blaming the use of bolts for the future via-ferrata's that have not been built yet??
And just what make a few via's a bad thing??
Have you ever driven a highway into a national park or wilderness area?? Do you have a problem with Handicap access built ramps/trails or roads that maybe be considered unsightly?
A simple yes or no for the above question!
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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worst thread ever. At least it reminded me that its the climbing thats important. Talking about it just f*#ks it all up.
Congrats Doug, Sean, et al..
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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on a different thread karl said this,
"I guess it's a general principle. Our desire to force control around us eventual is self-defeating."
seems somewhat appropriate here too...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Tradman, "praticuler"?
Atcha, worst thread ever? Come now, we've done LOTS worse than this..
If only the indians hadn't let those Plymouth Rock and Cortez folks land.......
You know what happens when those lemmings finally overwhelm their environment?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob, my upthread post (#888) was pretty clearly written, I surmise you disagree, but if you not getting what I'm saying then, there's not much else I can do as I can't say it any more simple or clear than that.
Your latest questions are the same sort of scope and scale creep as tradman's - not really a valid context or argument. But in general I view wholly bolt-dependent climbing as any other consumptive activity and in general, human nature being what it is, the behavior displayed is no different than bacteria in a culture dish - unrestrained growth until the medium is exhausted. I'm guessing if you could plot the growth of bolts in a three hour driving radius of major urban areas it would look indistinguishable from swabs on just such a culture dish.
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jstan
climber
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On another thread I predicted this one will not reach 1000. A torrent of abuse will come my way if I am wrong so I will have to nuke this post shortly.
I know a lot of you are less patient than myself. So you don't need to make the obvious comment here.
Karl raises the issue of what the process ahead will feel like. Good point. A story.
Long ago when the sky was blue I was standing on the carriage road talking to Lester Germer. For those few who do not know Lester he volunteered to fly as a fighter pilot over Europe during WW I, in the process becoming an ACE. After the war he came back to Cornell, got his Doctorate, and then went to work at Bell Labs. While there he did the work, the Davisson Germer experiment very clearly showing that electrons can be both particle and wave, and which resulted in a Nobel prize. Einstein is quoted later as saying that experiment was the thing that most illuminated his thinking on the Quantum. While in his sixties Lester was involved in a bivy under a waterfall in the Tetons when a person higher up lost their footing, fell, and planted their crampons deeply into Lester's back. Not long after Lester was still able to trek in the Himalaya.
While we were standing talking a noobie started soloing Ken's Crack looking for all the world as though he had little time left to live. Lester said, "Somebody has got to do something!"
Lester felt helpless.
This was a tremendous victory for me. There is only one thing I can claim to share with that Giant. I too feel helpless. As you all work to solve the insolvable hold close the fact that you share something with a true Giant. Indeed when you cease feeling helpless, you will know you have lost the path.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
the secret life of T*R
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i just wanted to make a post in this thread cuz everyone else is
thanks
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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1000 bolts with coz's name on them.
"Posts" Werner, posts.
PS. Coz, thanks for coming clean on your rap-bolting history.
~~~
I know it's taboo to mention this, but I wonder if they would have done differently if they were allowed to power drill.
Hypothetical at best...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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jstan,
Please don't nuke your post. I like it.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Mr. Stan has it right in so many ways.
At the same time I am not entirely sure about all this together stuff which Karl talks about. I am not strong and bold as some, but many cannot keep up with me. So we are not exactly together.
But I do identify with the sense of helplessness which Jstan refers to. I see people argue that these last great faces should not just be the domain of the bold hard climber. Yet that is the truth of these places. With so much rock climbing out there to do, at every level of difficulty and safety, why can’t folks just choose wisely? Now DR is suggesting we just hike up Half Dome, rap off, and do the relatively easier upper pitches because they are great? WTF? Is it not better to go choose climbs you can do?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: Your latest questions are the same sort of scope and scale creep as tradman's - not really a valid context or argument.
Funny...that exactly how feel about some of your posts.
This thread is about this route and it (this route) isn't wholly dependent on bolts and the people who will climb it will not be the fun-first crowd but will have a very high skill level at trad climbing and are willing to make the long hike into the base...not the sport/gym climbers you despise so much.
You just took this route, thread as a chance to go off.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"But I do identify with the sense of helplessness which Jstan refers to. I see people argue that these last great faces should not just be the domain of the bold hard climber. Yet that is the truth of these places. With so much rock climbing out there to do, at every level of difficulty and safety, why can’t folks just choose wisely?"
One climbers truth is another climbers change in style. Who decides this truth. The same argument could have had us lay any hammering or even aid off of El Cap. Fixed Lines anywhere, hangdogging anywhere.
Climbers weren't patient in the past and they aren't now. 10 people could decide to leave some line for the furture but it's often just because they have something else to do, are lazy, or for whatever reason.
This whole discussion seems just like a sexual morality argument to me.
"Kids should wait until they are married to have sex"
"Sex is just for procreation, no birth control allowed"
"One kind of sex is OK but the other is evil"
and most especially
"Hey, Bill, I hear you said you had a hot date tonight, I hope you get some buddy! Who's your date"
Bill: "It's your sister Bob!"
Bob: ^(^*)&)(*(*
Peace
Karl
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jstan
climber
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These are the right questions. Go around two more times and then be prepared to step into another's shoes - and you will be there.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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barefoot as we speak...my shoes are available.
I'm a little at sea myself. Never did anything like this before, and I expected some backlash. But this...
Somehow Ksolem's post just got to me. Seems so moralistic and bitter. I just suggested a way to go play on some cool stone. If it offends you, that wasn't my intent. Just walk on by. Your shoes are pinching me, but I'll try to limp a little further in 'em. Maybe get the hang of it.
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jstan
climber
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DR
I apologize for never telling you how much I enjoyed working with you back in the
70's. It was a real pleasure. We would have had a lot more of the old crew present if
you and Yvon had been at Facelift4. Maybe next time.
Right now this is in good hands, I think. The best hands. I don't get to say anything but damned exciting don't you think?
I'll be paying for this big time if it goes over 1000.
De'il take the hindmost!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob, no route stands entirely alone - every route is woven into the collective whole. And the more iconic the stone, the climbers, the line, or the means, the more impact it has on that collective whole. We wouldn't be at 900+ posts if this weren't just such an example. As such it can quite legitimately framed in the context of today's climbing and the contribution it makes to the future. That future and this climb look entirely rosey to you so I have no doubt you simply think it's a non-issue.
Hate spoil the view out the window of your caboose or engine, but, whichever you've been to riding in, we clearly have a very different view out the windown of both the past and the future.
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Festus
Social climber
Enron by the Sea
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When the ears of Indian corn allow themselves to hear the whisperings of fluted asphalt shingles on a cabin at 4,877 feet, the engine blocks of countless Chevy Novas will salute the dawn or chug a quart of tainted buttermilk, as the gods slow dance.
F#ck if I know what that means, but I'm in the thread, baby! I'M PART OF HISTORY!!
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Leave me out of it... I'm Canadian
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Healyje,
And your view that the increasing popularity of climbing is a bad thing is exactly opposite of mine. The more climbers the better. The more people filling their lungs with mountain air and their veins with a bit of adrenaline, the better. Don't be selfish. Our sedentary culture benefits from pushing away from the keyboard and going outside. The point of view we gain toward our at-risk civilization benefits from looking up, not down.
Climbing is strong medicine. Consider what it's done for your life. You probably want that for your kids. I want it for mine. Am supplying it. And all their friends. Best perspective on life and on an endangered planet I can think of.
Now the kind of climbing that you do, that most of us here do, is too strong a jolt for most people, and for most climbers. So I'm glad there are gyms and sport climbs for those who want less, can handle less. It still helps, still benefits our culture. And the problems it creates, the lines at Nutcracker and the tape wadded up in cracks and the trampeled flowers at the base are pretty easy to solve compared to the horrendous problems facing civilization itself that the point of view created and nurtured through climbing will be helping to solve.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Festus,
I dig it...It's kind of a cross between Ginsberg and Beefheart.
(I had a 63 Nova, sweet car)
I have to say that I am trying to understand both sides of this issue. It's clear though that Half Dome and the South Face aren't considered just any stone, compared to some of the other areas that have been discussed.
Doug, why so little of the article was dedicated to the upper half? I mean compared to the amount of writing about the bottom half. Seems it was intentional, like maybe you're not "quite" as proud of the top half? I mean, I know it's Seans route and all, but you are the author.
Edit: I like your comment about looking at what climbing has done for our lives and wanting it for our kids. I know I'm teaching mine to climb! A couple of them like it more than the other two....hmmmm...
Your shoes are feeling a bit snug right now too.
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jstan
climber
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when the mist begins to clear........everyone will come into view.
everyone
No person's experience can invalidate another's.
The central question is still there.........hanging.
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Frank Sanders
Trad climber
Devils Tower. Wyoming
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OOOhhh !!! I've been climbing too much, and have put way too little time in behind the computer!! Guess that I've missed most of this....but...has anyone done the 2nd ascent...Yet????
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: Hate spoil the view out the window of your caboose or engine, but, whichever you've been to riding in, we clearly have a very different view out the windown of both the past and the future.
My car or whatever you want to call is very traveled and running quite strong...I seen what you call a viral infection and see it a something quite positive.
I have seen areas like the San Luis Valley that once was the domain for few and now see a well thought out system of climbs, trails, campsites and a great and beautiful outdoor experience for people to recreate.
I see friends and family enjoying the company of each other and see them interact along the trails and climbs, talking, giving beta and sitting around a campfire drinking beer and talking about what a great experience they are having. Maybe they wouldn't have been there if if wasn't for the bolted climbs and easy access...I feel good that I have done something to get folks out and enjoy a great day in a beautiful and serene setting.
Joe your views and opinions don't spoil anything me...I'll continue to contribute instead of whining...we all take our different paths...mine is just the opposite of your.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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What are the Park Rules on this?
900 posts and nobody quotes the rules, or are rock climbers above the law?
I know you need a massive ego to be a good climber, but what are the stinkin rules, help a new freak out for chrissakes?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Doug, why so little of the article was dedicated to the upper half? ...Seems it was intentional, like maybe you're not "quite" as proud of the top half?
They allowed me 6000 words. Twice normal, or more. I wrote 7000+. Some stuff about the upper wall was in the thousand words cut. Also I used a lot of my words doing the entire history of the "backside." So little was known, so little written, bunch of original interviews. That stuff is fascinating. I wanted to give Karma and especially Southern Belle their due. They are so amazing. Now it's all in one place. Growing Up is in context.
I don't feel like I said all that much about the actual climbing, top or bottom. The photos do so much of that. I'd rather look at them than hear myself or anyone blab on about "left foot, right foot." I mean, that's exactly the stuff that bores me so much in the bar, ya know?
More directly to your unstated question: I don't feel as good about the top half as the bottom half. As I keep saying, we compromised. We had reasons, carefully thought out for weeks, which I've been trying to say more about here. To us they were good ones. To some of you, not.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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DR,
Thank you for the response. That makes sense to me.
Such a straight answer, I'm impressed.
They're hard to come by here in the box sometimes!
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jstan
climber
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From what I have observed:
Ghoulweij has attempted to set the rule that Canadiens don't count. You are free to follow that rule or not, as you feel is appropriate.
You are also free to disregard the usual rules for civil discourse, depending upon what you hope to accomplish.
If you have nothing you wish to accomplish, that too may be contributed.
These rules are pretty strict, but hey. That's life.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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So when will the route be chopped?
Juan
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Ok, this is the final answer, if, in thirty years from now, when all your joints and tendons ache from years of use, what will you think about bolting the South Wall?
With maturity, comes knowledge, and knowledge replaces fear, the basic premise of all rock climbing.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Over the course of my climbing career I have gone from Rabidly ANTI bolt to rabidly ground up ONLY to Sport is pretty cool as long as it stays in Rumny to whatever makes the best rout . I still prefer ground up for most of my own projects and will honor the local ethic. I do however appreciate a good rout regardless of weather it was ground up or top down. Tolerance is a good thing. Maby I am growing up a bit????
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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DR,
This is where we simply disagree. I personally see no need for stone or climbing to bear the endless burden of the ills of our growing population. It wouldn't be nearly the problem for me if there wasn't a relentless, consumptive march of wholly bolt-dependent climbing. It's a fundamental divide for me when someone's climbing isn't even possible unless entire lines of stone have steel installed to accomodate it.
I'd be the last to say there was no place for sport climbing, but the reality of what it has turned into 25 years later I find untenable. And as this train picks up speed it continously redefines climbing, wringing ever more risk out of it at every stop to invite more 'climbers' onboard. It is in no way a sustainable activity and when the last bolt within easy driving range has been drilled, they will be coming back around to in-fill no differently than in the development of housing in crowded inner cities. Both via ferratas and retrobolting will be on the agenda sooner than later as more and more people cry that 'elitists' shouldn't be allowed to dominate the stone or set the standards for all.
The trad crag where I climb would be in-filled and consumed in a two or three of short years left unconstrained. And I have zero faith in climbers' ability to self-regulate at this point and this is borne out by the fact that bolting is only restrained at those venues under private ownership or active management by public land managers. Everywhere else drills are going off. Again, I'm not elitist, I'm just plain selfish, and I make no bones about it. I'd have no problem 'sharing' whatsoever if sharing didn't require the installation of a line of steel to effect it, and if 'sharing' didn't continuously redefine the very thing we're sharing.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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BURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRP!
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Austin, Texas
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But what does Peter Gabriel think?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Do we get the number of bolts used on GU before 1000 posts--I hope so, for posterity's sake.
Does it matter ?
50 compared to 400 may change a few opinions.
I'm going out on a small limb here and saying that the NPS (currently) has no rules against the amount of bolts placed by hand on any given route/crag/area.
Let's hope that Bill Gates isn't reading this, and hires 50 hammer-monkeys to grid-bolt the upper half of SFHD--legal, fair, and done for the future of climbing, hehe.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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"And the problems it creates, the lines at Nutcracker and the tape wadded up in cracks and the trampeled flowers at the base are pretty easy to solve compared to the horrendous problems facing civilization itself that the point of view created and nurtured through climbing will be helping to solve."
Is anybody really listening to this guy ?? I know this whole thread is highly emotional. I also know that both sides are, to some degree, arguing their point based on what is the best for the "future". On this thread, I have watched Doug Robinson reflect, divulge inner thoughts and feelings, attempt to justify his actions, become depressed, and continue to participate in an open and honest fashion. Can't say that about those who wish to condemn based on what I perceive as an ethic or style that applies to two percent of the climbing population. You know what, this climb may be a "botch" job. But, I will never know
because I'm among the "unwashed" masses that make up the climbing population. I may never see, let alone visit, Growing Up. Soo, as this thread approaches 1000 posts, which I think is inherently good, I will side with integrity, and an honest attempt to speak to the greater good. Damit!! Doug Robinson for President !!!!!
Cracko
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Irrelevant argument, Dr Troll. I Have been climbing for well over thirty years, and I have many of those joint pains. And that really doesnt enter into my own decision about what I think of that route;that all-in-all, it wasnt a very good ides.
People make mistakes, especially under the heat of adrenaline. Its not like they are bad people or anything.
I see it as a failed experiment, learn from it, and move on.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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This is the exact same campfire argument at Camp 4 that Robbins and Harding had 40+ yrs ago is it not?
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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An honest question: how many of the posters here could lead the (unbolted) 8 pitches of 5.12 crack climbing the route begins with?
I think there is a lot of hype involved in characterizing this as a sport route. I don't really believe in the whole sport climbing trip, but I also know that I have never had the capability to really lead an 8 pitch, 5.12 crack climb.
Just an observation, really.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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I forgot where Warren H was a top downer. He was pretty darn bold, kind of the opposite situation, so no, it's a different squabble.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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I don't know Jaybro, I don't see where putting a rivet ladder up something is all that bold. Given enough time, anyone can do that, and do a lot more damage to the rock.
I've got a lot of respect for Harding, as I do for DR. But while Warren did was different, I don't know if it was ethically better, or in my mind, stylistically better.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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This you may not heard about, because it involves two sports, kayaking, and technical climbing.
For all you non kayaker/climber types, we had the same prestiege system as you climbers, first decents of rad rivers in the Sierra, from ex climbers who thought:
"Why the hell are we risking our lives on this sweltering slab, when we could be down there, on that beautiful river, at least when you drown, you don't have 8 seconds of free fall involved, so Holbek, Robbins, Stanley, switched over to kayaking, but they still had their rock climbing skills, so they used their fancy rope work to gain first decents, Grand Canyon of the T, Middle Fork Kings from Junction Meadows, rad sh#t, so when Royal and Reg Lake and the gang set pro for their first descent, Lars and Company removed it during the repeat!
So when the guys went back, they almost got stuck!
Has this ever happened in the climbing world, jus curious.
If interested, I can post the list of First Decents from Robbins, I bet a lot of you do not realize his impact in the sport of Kayaking, what say?
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Want to elaborate on my previous post. Clearly, I am approaching this whole debate focusing on the individual and not the merits of the "ethical" or "stylistic" debate which, quite frankly, escapes me due to it being so relative. I have been climbing for 35+ years, most of which I have also been involved in education. I have always been interested in helping kids reach their full potential by exposing them to different challenges which helps them develop strong self concepts and self-reliance. During my 25+ years in education, I have attempted to contact many "climber" types to work with kids in a school setting. In that 25 years, two people have actually been willing to do so......Mark Wellman and Doug Robinson, and they both did outstanding jobs. Climbing to me, outside of the personal challenge, is a vehicle to make sense of the world we live in and our part in it. Most great athletes will tell you that until they found a way to give back to society, their personal successes were somewhat meaningless. Doug Robinson has attempted to articulate this side of our "sport", but I fear it has fallen upon deaf ears. Why can't the climbing community embrace this concept of social responsibility ????
Cracko
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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DR posted above: "Somehow Ksolem's post just got to me. Seems so moralistic and bitter. I just suggested a way to go play on some cool stone. If it offends you, that wasn't my intent. Just walk on by. Your shoes are pinching me, but I'll try to limp a little further in 'em. Maybe get the hang of it."
That was not my intent, and I regret you took it that way. I have just tried to ask well thought out questions here, all have gone unanswered except by the ubiquitous Karl...
I am surprised that my post got to you, after all of what has been said here. Perhaps if I had some footprints of my own on that face I might claim to be offended. Or bitter. I am neither of those things. I am more like dazed and confused (I have also been accused of being cocky, arrogant and some other things unmentionable. But bitterness is not in me and certainly not directed at you.)
On the whole this thread has been a surprisingly healthy conversation considering the topics. Please carry on.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Forgot where Harding was a top downer!?
Over and over and over.
He even had to stop for some holiday.
:-)
I guess you could look at the new route in the same light, hard pitches up, rap down, really long traverse, easy slab climb, rap down, more hard climbing up.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Yeah, I know what you mean stevep, there is a wide area for thought on this, and I, also, have a lot of respect for DR and WH. The difference as I see it, is that those rivit (not bolt) ladders were still an adventure into the unknown and thus, yeah an ethically bigger deal.
So Trad, Siege = rapbolting? ;)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"all have gone unanswered except by the ubiquitous Karl... "
I'm back from India and fallen victim to Supertopitis. That's what ya'll get for complaining about my posting politics.
back on track. Just to see what we have concensus on or not, and to push this thread well past 1000, I have a question.
We've all seen, on these very pages, that the defenders of one kind of style often either employ that same style in other areas, or have their own practices that others have disapproved of, so:
How do we rank style or ethics offenses? Is it just visceral? Like our shared attitudes about a particular act or location should be informing us of what's not OK and what's marginal?
Or do you have a hierarchy of cardinal sins. Care to make a list from worst to marginal? Say something like this (with reasons when unclear)
1. Constructing and adding artificial holds. (Except Alfa Hood ormanments and Ol E Cans)
2. Chipping and glueing (except to reinforce failing holds on sport routes in limited circumstances)
3. Power Drilling (except where legal in sport climbing whorehouses, in National Parks it makes it too easy for egos to go wild. Don't ask, don't tell when responsible elites do it)
4. Chiseling and Trenching heads, particularly if you're going to remove them. (I like to get my panties in a bunch about heads, cause Aid climbers {I'm one sometimes} like to think they're bold but they are destructive and unsustainable.)
5. yada, yada
Just food for thought to see what's important to people.
On to 2000!
Peace
Karl
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Dr wrote: "Now the kind of climbing that you do, that most of us here do, is too strong a jolt for most people, and for most climbers. So I'm glad there are gyms and sport climbs for those who want less, can handle less. It still helps, still benefits our culture. And the problems it creates, the lines at Nutcracker and the tape wadded up in cracks and the trampeled flowers at the base are pretty easy to solve compared to the horrendous problems facing civilization itself that the point of view created and nurtured through climbing will be helping to solve. "
A couple of points kind of rolled into one. This is a generalization, but the majority of the new people I see coming into climbing through the gyms and sport climbing do not have the same appreciation for the outdoors as those I saw getting into climbing in the 70's and 80's. They are more interested in climbing as a form of physical exercise. Coincidentally, I see the same thing in the bike racing world. For that reason I don't agree that increasing the interest and numbers of climbers is a benefit to our culture.
Also, I blame that same gym/sport climbing origin for the "end justifies the means" attitude I have seen expressed here in this thread. Feeling that the style used was OK because it created a new climb for everyone to do was expressed by many here.
Bruce
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jstan
climber
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After thirty years of doing the same thing over and over, I am surprised when people think a new result will come out. I will not be surprised if I see our race go into extinction with this topic in just the state we see at present. On the other hand if we could manage a change in this discussion, I would begin to feel a little more hopeful as regards the larger picture.
C'est le non-Vie.
Rest assured however, sooner or later "you won't have me to kick around anymore."
I just can't resist that line and "proud or tired". They pretty much span the whole of human experience.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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bump
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Good job, Healyje. You are helping to clarify where we "simply" disagree.
You call yourself "just plain selfish." I see more climbers getting on the stone as an avenue toward fixing "the endless burden of the ills of our growing population." Glad you put it in population terms, since oerpopulation is at the root of our environmental (and many of our social) problems. I support Planned Parenthood, and I put a jar of condoms in the basement where my teenagers and their friends can grab some without anyone knowing.
And I'm willing, even anxious, to have a lot more climbers on "our" stone because I see that as increasing our planet's supply of useful values like trust and, you said it "sharing" (but you gotta mean it), like -- god, do I have to say it? -- teamwork. Like respect for the earth, like awareness of the real limits to its finite carrying capacity. Plus all the venerable trad values like self-reliance, toughness, boldness.
And by the way, there is so much untouched stone out there -- apparently you have no idea. Kindly don't whine about "the last bolt within easy driving range." It's true that adventure and exploration are creeping away from the roadside. It's true that the most accessible stone is going sport. Have you forgotten how to walk? It's actually fun. You get to look around, warm up for...whatever adventure is around the bend.
Take a look at just a fraction of the stuff the Warbler has posted up here, all in and around the Valley. A post in the top 10 right now is "Dream Easy - new 4 pitch 5.8 at Reed's." And in that thread are 2-3 other lines I'd noticed over there. Check Tenaya Canyon -- recent posts about that too. Maybe it was on the Karma post, actually, but folks on this very Taco Stand have named nine separate domes stretching out from Starr King. I knew of only 2 or 3, and I've been paying attention. The High Sierra for hundreds of miles north and south is littered with thousands of unclimbed walls and fine lines -- and that's just the ones I happened to have noticed.
The rate of exploration out there slowed for awhile, like the 80s and 90s. But now it's picking up again. It's actually fueled by climbers following the new progression from gym to sport to trad to adventure and exploration. Kinda cool, and very heartening. I love talking to those people by the sides of Sierra trails, and I've given away more beta than I can count to folks I didn't even know by name.
The first step is away from the roadside. And out of your hoarding self.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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You know whats weird, is that, if I did something that I thought might be controversial, I sure the H would not go blabbin about it to the whole world, have it written up in a magazine, it's almost like a confession of guilt, awaiting the sentence from the rock world, sometimes when people do something bad, they feel a need to confess, does anybody get that vibe, or am I just a piece of lint in the bottom of a crack somewhere?
I mean, if i phuced up a huge national treasure like the dome, i sure the h would not wany anybody to find out!
So full propps for your honesty, if anything else.
I guessi its better than someone finding out:
"Hey, some freak bolted the south wall!"
Then you carry a guilt complex, so now I see this thread as a way to release inner tension so tyat you can climb with a free concious, but the jury is still out, and will remain out for eons to come, so don't stress it, carry on and this thing will sort itself out over time.
Oh, and Death to America!
Are you workingh with Ben Laden?
Did you plant explosives in one of those cracks?
The next act of terroisim will bethe destruction of ell capy or half dome, you watch.
how many tons of TNT to dislodeg the Sa la tee?
And that is the correct pronunciation, BTW.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Bolting plastic holds to El Cap will bring about the Second Golden Age of climbing.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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bhilden: "the majority of the new people I see coming into climbing through the gyms and sport climbing do not have the same appreciation for the outdoors..."
Their ignorance is not their fault. But it sure is an opportunity. Once they get to the crags they're ripe to get schooled. Talk to a nOOb. Do it today. At the very least, cast a kindly glance at their toprope anchors.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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but what are the stinkin rules, help a new freak out for chrissakes?
Its legal to drill a hole in rock and place a bolt.
Its illegal to pick a flower.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I'm back - 650 or so posts later. Just doing my bit, you understand - I've read pretty much everything, and am impressed that we're (mostly) still having a civil discussion, particularly given that a debate about values rarely leads to a definite result.
Some recent posters have brought up the subject of how the climbing community teaches, and influences, newcomers. And how that has changed so very much in the last 20 years or so - not coincidentally, at the same time as the introduction of widespread climbing gyms, reliable bolts, educational videos and literature, and other improvements in equipment and technique. And commercial climbing generally.
Many of those on SuperTopo learned to climb in the 1970s or 1980s, and some even in the 1960s. (Luckily, there's a growing number of those who've learned more recently.) At that time, climbers often learned some basics in a semi-structured environment (club, scouts, etc), but then were pretty much on their own. For many, the next step was a kind of apprenticeship, where we learned from those who were ahead of us. Bridwell's Boys are perhaps the most famous example.
It was as much a mentoring and apprenticeship process as it was pure learning - we absorbed the values and ethos of our community, such as it was, and learned about its history. We knew where we had come from. The roots were in mountaineering, and challenge and risk assessment and management were fundamental. Human character has that hard-wired.
The 1970s also brought the clean climbing revolution, helped considerably by jstan, DR, and others. When prophets speak, and make sense, it's a good idea to pay attention - which most did.
I put a fair amount of time into climbing with novices and near-novices, sometimes in a fairly structured manner. Partly paying back a debt owed to others, some now dead, partly to help pass on values and ethos they won't get any other way.
Despite the differences on this thread, we do share a lot of values, not just with regard to a route on Half Dome, or Yosemite, but to climbing if not life in general. We may have differences as to the application of those values - the humanity! But they are there. Our job is to help transmit them.
Whatever happens, I hope that climbers a century from now are able to still have discussions such as this one, and have values and experiences that fulfill the same needs.
Find some time, and put in the effort to take new climbers out. If they don't know where we came from, and why, how will they figure out where we're going to go next?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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DR wrote:
"Their ignorance is not their fault. But it sure is an opportunity. Once they get to the crags they're ripe to get schooled. Talk to a nOOb. Do it today. At the very least, cast a kindly glance at their toprope anchors."
Excellent point! I had the great fortune to have a father who loved the outdoors and schooled me as to what it is all about. Yes, getting people to the outdoors and helping them to learn why it is so special is a very good thing and enhances our stewardship of the planet.
Bruce
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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As one of the "authors" of Dream Easy I'd say that we approached the climb as an adventure with very different ends in mind. And we did (and still do) have eye on some of the other lines up there.
Eric has a whole list of potential FAs from his vast exploration of the Valley. We have put routes up on remote cliffs right next to Sean Jones routes, too, which lends me some familiarity with at least a portion of those 90 unreported climbs.
The day we started Dream Easy I met Eric at his usual spot as the sun was coming on to Reed's at the turn out. He had a plan and pointed it out to me, "let's go and see what's up there, I think I remember seeing something from another route... are you game?" and I'm always game to follow Eric on one of these explorations as it means adventure.
So we go up and get up the first pitch which follows the "5.6 variation" start to Reed's Regular. Eric gingerly makes his way out right and does some hairball bold lead off of sketchy pro and grainy granite, taking a long time and actually placing a hook which didn't take much to flip off when I went by... not great pro.
That pitch wanders out on the flake who's right side thins to the undercling/lieback climb Duck and Cover which rates a "Scary!" comment in the guide. But we went up on a little slab and sat upon a natural pinnacle. So far so good...
Up the crack, then a little move left to gain the ramp right. Originally we had an idea to take this line to the top of Reed's, so we explored around a bit. The wall above us didn't look very climbable straight on, and the line we thought might penetrate didn't. That day the sun was leaving us early, so we decided to descend. At the prominent belay tree we found no sign of rap slings indicating to us that not many people had ventured up were we had been.
Eric returned with Linda, and ended up cleaning out a crack we had originally thought might be too difficult for the climb we wanted to create... essentially a 5.8 climb on interesting ground. He equipped the climb which ended at the headwall. Somewhat unnatural.
I think Eric and Ian went up and did it as a route, and Clint ended up on it, and a whole lot of other people right now have gone up to do it, some feel that we sandbagged some of the rating... but you can only do so good at guessing these things on an FA.
We had a lot of fun doing it. I've had a lotta fun working with Eric on probably 20 or so new routes throughout the Valley (maybe more, I've lost count over the years). There are some seriously good routes 2.5 hours hiking which I don't think anyone will ever do. We have a bunch on Reed's that will eventually get done.
In every climb with Eric that I've done, we have first considered what our impact would be. Eric says "respect the rock" and we try... which leads to many routes having an "X" rating. This is not because we consider ourselves the badass elite trying to force our insanity on the rest of the climbing world. It's because we don't know if our vision for the route up the line will yield a quality route, we don't want to put bolts in if the route isn't worth it. Respect the rock. Sometimes these climbs get an "X" rating because we didn't go back and re-equip. It is likely that we'll never describe some of these...
Sometimes we leave the bolt kit in the van and commit to a natural line. This sort of climbing leaves the outcome in question, will we figure it out or not? If not, we have to escape back down. On A Walk In The Park we were way high and had to figure out if our way would go, it was very possible that we wouldn't. A gutsy lead by Eric got us through, there may actually be another way, we don't know... maybe someone else will find it. The only description we have, really, is the image of the cliff with my line tracing our route. We didn't alter it in anyway so it is free for anyone else to go up and do the same thing. A great adventure.
Many times an FA team has to make choices about the route. Part of the enjoyment of doing an FA is that you get to do something for the first time yourself. There is a responsibility you take on when you put yourself in the position of making these choices, and a consequence that comes because you did.
We were up on Reed's putting up a route in between all the other wonderful and historic routes that were up there. Part of it was to satisfy that sheer enjoyment of adventure and discovery, different from the joy of repeating another route. But we did have a responsibility not to put up junk, and so we first went up gently, with little impact. We respected the rock.
If we had not, we fully expected to have people criticize us for messing around up there, and we would have deserved it... and taken that criticism.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dr Rock said; "or am I just a piece of lint in the bottom of a crack somewhere?"
That's the first thing you've said that I can agree with.
Too many people are spewing ethical hardlines that are regularly found to be a big grey zone.
I just can't see the expressed inevitability of every square inch of stone being grid bolting on rap and via ferratas everywhere simply because the SFHD got 1/2 rap bolted.
For one thing the climbing community has always done a fair job of self policing. Not an easy task given the renegade banditos who haunt our ranks. And, the American land managers are way too skittish about liability to string via ferrata every where.
Some people seem to forget or ignore that GU is obviously a very stout route and not some watered down pansy sport climb.
We need to hear from repeat ascensionists before passing judgement.
20 years from now GU will be considered an American classic Southern Belle will still not receive a repeat though it may cause a few deaths. And new routes will be put up in new styles.
You want to chop an abomination? Go after the Compressor route. Now that is a mountain of rock that SHOULD be reserved for the elite!
Personally my greater concern is protecting the environment.
Chip Salaun did his breakthrough botanical studies in Rocky Mountain National Park. His finding showed that there were species of plants that grew NO WHERE ELSE on the planet other than The Diamond face of Long's Peak and many of those were hundreds of years old. I am amazed how many folks thing nothing of "cleaning cracks. But they poop all over them selves not about bolts at all but about how they were placed.
As an old school ground up trad climber I am still willing to say that Sean put up a stellar route with the minimum impact on the natural environment. And I think that is way more pridefull than yet another self agrandizing death route or some forced hack job to nowhere.
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WBraun
climber
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The thread is going dead as sticks float down the river to meet other sticks in an eddy only to be separated later again in time.
What's so great about the planet if you only end up in dust in the end as so many people constantly propagate here?
Oh it's for the future of our children they say.
What about you?
Oh I built the house of bolts to save them was their reply.
Don't ask me why, as these sentences just spontaneously leapt out of the blue.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Too much hippy lettuce, werner. we just want to see 1000 before it dies :D
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Werner wrote:Don't ask me why, as these sentences just spontaneously leapt out of the blue.
Same thing happens to me after a few strong vodka's & fresh lemonade. :)
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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me: "but what are the stinkin rules, help a new freak out for chrissakes?"
Johnboy:
Its legal to drill a hole in rock and place a bolt.
Thank You ! You, in one short sentance, gave us what we wanted to know.
Game Over.
I am a new climber, but I am 53, I hav3e total repect for the granite, I think John Muir was the best climber of all time, why?
Because he was a clean man. A very clean man, but with more normal ears than Ansel Adams.
What would Ansel and Muir think about those bolts?
Who carers, they are both dead, I think the problem with Yose Mite is that it is located directly in the center of the state, so we get messed up LA types trying to get it with Camp 4 types, not a good mix!
\
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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At a Leave No Trace class I learn that that a majority of outdoor use in within 30-50 miles of major population center, front country users are way up and back-country users are way down.
Many factors for the this but the main one is that people want to recreate in the outdoors. Instead of a gloom & doom view of this I view trying to educate these users will in long term be beneficial to both user and the resources.
I met a lot of wonderful folks at sport climbing and trad-areas and realize that most of them are tying to squeeze out some quality time and adventure.
As to untapped rock...Colorado & Utah has many lifetimes of rock & new routes to be climbed by any method you prefer.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Doc Rock wrote
"I am a new climber, but I am 53, I hav3e total repect for the granite, I think John Muir was the best climber of all time, why?
Because he was a clean man. A very clean man, but with more normal ears than Ansel Adams.
What would Ansel and Muir think about those bolts? "
John Muir herded sheep in Tuolumne Meadows and also worked in a Yosemite Valley Sawmill. Bad ethics?
He also said "Come to the mountains and get their good tidings"
peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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And then the tide went back out to the sea .....
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Actually, I think we should make Yosemite into an Indian Reservation.
Instead of dry rocky bluffs in Arizona, lets give them the best we got.
Like the I Ching, if you love something, give it up.
Indians are the best climbers.
They probably did thiubngs on El Cappy that we don't even know about.
Did you know that white folks used to wrestle Grizzlies, trying to beat the Indians?
You lket the Griz get you in a bear hug, then you reach up full length and stab him with a knife in the throat.
Kit Carson stuff.
Now there's a stud. Used to let the ants eat the lice out of his unwashged bucksdkin vest, then he ate the ants!
I wanna suk that stud dry.
But he's dead.,
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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No, no, Bob, we have no rock to be climbed here in UT. And I certainly wouldn't be thinking of doing any rap bolting in Lone Peak Cirque. You all can keep that in Yos. :-)
Looks like we're going to hit 1000 tonite. Glad I've done my part and if anything I have more respect for almost everyone who has posted on this thread. Maybe all this yakking about has even made me inspired enough to trek out and try Growing Up.
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Mustang
climber
From the wild, not the ranch
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All of this great discussion has got me thinking a bit outside the cage.
Should the YDS be ratified to include a sub-rating that describes the manner in which the FA of a route was completed, ground up, (GU), or rap bolted, (RB)?
I’m not suggesting that this will appease anyone of varying opinion on the matter of style and ethic, but it will lend an opportunity to further classify the way in which a route was created. Hardmen will have their asterisk, others, the dreaded, ‘Scarlet Letter’.
The debate over style and ethic will forever continue and that is another positive thing that separates us from primates; I believe we’ll reach 1000 posts later tonight, and topics of such controversy will never be resolved in such format. That being said, style or ethic of a first ascentionists’ creation may be actually protected under the 1st amendment of the Constitution. Counsel, step in here if you would please.
It further may take a comparison from the heated discussion from time to time in the art world, of what constitutes art, and whether graphic displays of unimaginably offensive and controversial images to many, fall within the description of art to some.
‘Growing Up’, offensive to many in its’ creation due to the nature of the medium, or beautiful to others because it makes the ‘art’ accessible to the masses is the obvious crux of this discussion. If we are able to answer the question of, what determines that which is obscene to many, art to others? Then, we will have discovered our ever elusive answer;)….
On to 1200+
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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DR,
Yes, in many places there is essentially endless stone if you go out far enough. True that you and I both are both blessed to live in such places where that is possible. But I hail from the southern Midwest and East Coast where the resources are far more limited. So while the idea that the answer is to flee to the hills and abdicate everything close in is practical, if not palatable advice, even that option that's not necessarily available to all. Some of the most infamous bolt wars were the result of exactly these pressures playing out in the close quarter confines of the NE. But, I agree surfing ahead of a wave of diminished risk farther and farther afield is certainly the reality we're faced with.
And I'd probably spend more time afield if our close-in crag wasn't closed to climbing a good part of the year. I like to get in every day possible when it is open and monitoring the Peregrines during the period it is closed takes up another 20-30 days or so. If all I did was climb it wouldn't be a problem to get out farther afield, but like many I have a family to support and my time for climbing is limited. When I do get out I do try to go to places I can do FA's and / or get on classic lines I haven't climbed.
That part Karl gets right - we all each do what we can...
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Yes, I found some awesome slabs O granite, up near Calaveras Big Trees, along the North Stan, probably been climbed, but nobody there, I hate an audience, stresses me, howabout you?
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Dr. Rock wrote-"Yes, I found some awesome slabs O granite, up near Calaveras Big Trees, along the North Stan, probably been climbed, but nobody there, I hate an audience, stresses me, howabout you?"
Dr?........ you seem stressed......
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Ecramento, I am stressin.
But at least I don't live in an overcrowded Cowtown, although that Alex guy seems OK.
What ever came out of Sac Town besides Norman Grenbaum's Spirit In the Sky, and the Def Tones?
Papa Roach?
Break my repel line, will ya?
Cake?
Barf me.
Little Charlie is cool.
Meet me at the Towwer Cafe for some jerk chicken, on me, but yuou gotta help me with this 5.13d calaveras big trees sh#t.
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Festus
Social climber
Enron by the Sea
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And then the tide went back out to the sea...where it already was since it's part of the sea, unless it had somehow detached itself and spent a night playing low ball at a card room in Gardena before wandering home penniless after stopping at a Seven-Eleven for a raspberry Slurpee. At least it would have if the Slurpee machine wasn't broken, so it had to settle for a can of Coke and some Skittles.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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people don't talk about it so much
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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it's kind of a 'quiet' thing
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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but there is no question that it has value!
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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and i know you know what i'm talkin about
even if you wanna act like you don't know what i'm talkin about
but you know what i'm talkin about
and you know that i know that you know what i'm talkin about
...
...
...
!
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Sean Jones
climber
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Blair,
go to bed. your wife's gonna kill you then kill me because it's my fault you're stuck on this site.
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AndySan Diego
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Who will claim 1000? LOL I read this when it first started & thought it was a joke.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Dude im doing my taxes.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Warbler,
Back in '80 my perspective on sport climbing tactics was that dogging effectively kept bringing the ground up back up under the climber as they worked the route. That employing this tactic in effect reduced every move worked that way to a boulder problem. Because of this I wrote to 'Climbing' proposing that routes put up in this manner be rated with an additional 'AB' designation for 'aerial bouldering'.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Man, I am so bummed. I was staying up watching late night TV trying to snag the 1000th post in good style (since that is what started this whole thing in the first place). I was then going to auction the slot off on Ebay to help a charity of the winner's choosing.
Bruce
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Who will get #1,000? (Once Matt deletes his ten spam posts, that is.)
I like Kevin's idea about grading, but would take it a step or three further, maybe in a different direction.
In many ways, a route tells a story about the people and the place. That's reflected in many things - the name, the grade, the stories the climbers tell others, the description in the guidebook, the topo, campfire gossip, the deliberations of the morals & ethics committee, and ultimately the experiences that others have. Recognizing that we humans come into the story quite late on, and that the natural history of a place may have much more to say about it than we ever will. Also remembering that our stories form part of the history, although the interpretation of that history depends on perspective, information, and time. It's difficult to be entirely objective about our own actions, let alone about motivations and thoughts.
We have to tell our stories in a way that they're remembered, as a service to those who come after us. Whatever the "right" answer is to rappel bolting on the South Face of Half Dome - if indeed there is one - the story about it is now part of their heritage. If they better know where they've come from, they'll be able to make better decisions about where they're going.
The natural history of Half Dome tells its own story, but one that also needs to be remembered. Likewise the story of Yosemite, climbing in the park, and climbing on Half Dome. All provide important context.
I've always preferred written guidebooks, where a route description tells you when a first ascent was done, and by whom, and perhaps other pertinent or interesting information. A picture or topo add to this. SuperTopo guides often follow that format, and are the better for it - they tell something of the story of the climb.
Kevin's grading system would be fine, but may have both too much nuance, and too little. (People said much the same about Bridwell's proposal to subdivide 5.10...) Especially on a longer route, there could be endless subdivisions to describe each pitch or sub-pitch, lots of squabbling about exactly what it all meant, and it might end up taking away some of the adventure. But the grade of a route does tell part of its story, and should in context fairly reflect its nature.
Most guidebooks to sport climbing areas simply provide a topo or a marked photo, with one or two lines description if that. The names and dates may be at the back of the book. There's really no story to tell. Like bouldering movies, there's often not much of a plot, however hard you try.
Similarly, "sport" climbers often refer to someone "developing" routes or a climbing area, or even "setting" routes - outdoors. Language is telling, even given the sloppiness with which we often use it. (And most land managers probably don't much like the "D" word, either.) Language like that suggests that climbing is less about poetry, and more about engineering. There's certainly human spirit involved, and challenge in the outdoors, but not in the same manner.
I prefer to say that climbers create or discover routes - just like Michelangelo sculpting, the route is already there, and we just find it. I also think that we're all climbers, regardless of which sub-discipline we may at the moment be engaged in.
Those engaged in a first ascent in pure style - ground up, minimal alteration of the environment, no trickery - tend to have the widest spectrum of experiences, ranging from the awe of discovery to the mental and physical challenge to sheer terror. Much of that is missing in "sport" climbing. I don't know how you could ever grade for that - except by stories.
Routes, climbers, and climbing, are all about human endeavour, and stories about it. The best verge on poetic - a route name that in a few words sums up the climb and the story behind it. Lyrical accounts of climbs abound. Some are fine prose indeed, although many are understandably just workmanlike, and a lot are plain awful. You can't always have diamonds, and in any case coal has its own unique qualities. That sense of creation is harder to generate from a topo or photo, although some have terse if not witty epigrams.
Sean, Doug and friends have certainly told their part of the story of Growing Up, in detail. Full credit to them for telling us what happened, what they were thinking, and how they thought it all fitted in with the evolution of climbing. (Not to assume that climbing, on Half Dome, in Yosemite, or otherwise, needs to evolve.) And credit to them for participating in this discussion, and for the other who've (mostly) kept it useful, interesting, and polite. It's a difficult thing to do, in the face of criticism - but utter honesty, with yourself and others, is one of the hallmarks of a climber.
(For those who still want a topo, I somehow suspect there aren't many bolts on the upper wall.)
I suppose one could argue that, having chased up blind alleys at the end of the arch, half way up, Doug and Sean should have come back to camp, told everyone what had happened, and asked what to do next. (Or posted up on SuperTopo...) In effect, involved others in how their tale evolved. It seems a tad improbable, considering all their work to that point, and it seems doubtful that their decision as to what to do would have been any better informed.
My take on Growing Up is that it's a route that has stimulated some valuable debate, that it does not in any way detract from the nearby climbs, and that it will be a big challenge even for a competent party to repeat. I doubt that what was done will take away from the sense of challenge and adventure sought by others who go there, or cause them to think that rappel bolting is suddenly an acceptable thing to do in the Valley. The climb tells a story (or stories), and I believe it's a story we should listen to and think about, and that is not inconsistent with the story of climbing in Yosemite.
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Shingle
climber
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Shouldn't the route more properly be called "Growing Down?"
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Jim E
climber
Mountain Road
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I just wanted to post on this thread so I could one day claim to have been part of this great debate.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Warbler's idea is a good one which deserves consideration.
I mean, back when I started climbing, I often wondered where F7 or 5.9 and HVS and grade IV and all these things came from?
They evolved over time and came from discussion and consensus...
of a sort. It was all very confusing, but eventually you get used to it.
It would at least force people to think about the little letters going next to their route in the guidebook. The cheesier the style, the more little letters you get! I would surely prefer a simple F next to my route grading.
Mighty Hiker, awesome post!
Festus Ginsberg Beefheart, nice!
Matt, WTFO?
Dr. Rock, step away from the crack pipe! Or lighten up on the medical marijuana at least.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Thanks to all who kept it civil and especially to Sean and Doug.
This has been a great thread with a lot of great comments from both sides. Every generation of climbers take "issue" with the new breed, their styles and techniques, the way its always been and more than likely always be, just remember...a lot of us here use to be the "new breed", not bound by the past but open to the future.
The sport of climbing will continue to change and the train will continue to roll down the tracks, I am just glad I had a seat with a view.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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TOPO and or bolt count, PLEASE !
DR and Sean Jones, since this route was done for the community (among other reasons), the request for a topo is well within parameters here.
How in the hill is anybody supposed to climb it in the fashion that you two envisioned without the necessary BETA ?
A "standard" trad rack for the lower half would be a good guess, but how many draws per pitch on the upper half--3, 10 or 20 ?
For all of us, PLEASE !
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I don't think the "Shame" ratings belong in the actual grade for difficulty/protection, although I'd be fine if they were coded into the guidebooks. I envision climbers yelling out, Duuuude, I just cranked that 5.11bPast!
Even better than abbreviations would be recording the stories of first ascents. The internet gives us the free publishing and space to get everybody's stories before they are gone. That way, future generations will understand why the old school did it the way they did and the nuances behind why different choices were also made (such as was explained on this thread)
An idea that I had awhile back was a registry of First Ascent stories. It was going to go on Rockclimbing.com (they wanted it too but it didn't quite happen, could be revived) but mini versions of it could go anyplace, like even Supertopo. Here's a link to the proposal.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=20494
Here was some of the initial discussion
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=20192
Here's the text of the idea
First Ascender Registry Introduction
Technical Rockclimbing is a relatively new sport but one which is bound to endure. Many of the pioneers and vanguards of rockclimbing are still with us. Inevitably, those people will pass with time while the routes that they established will live in geologic time. If humans can save themselves and this planet, there will be climbers enjoying the classic routes hundreds of years from now.
We have a unique opportunity to give something to those future generations of climbers. We can still record the history of the sport through the opinions and stories of those who helped develop it. If we do that, we will have a people’s history of the sport that won’t be narrowly focused on one area, or the achievements of a few. We will have an intimate view about how different people experienced the evolution of rockclimbing.
The climbing community has always accorded some value to the style and ethics displayed by the first ascent party. Style and ethics became a moral battleground in countless climbing areas. It’s a dramatic story of preservation versus development, of change versus tradition, and a tale of inspiration, ego, and discovery. The story of new routes goes beyond the technical difficulties to include friendship with partner, membership in community, and living large.
The culture of climbing has constantly changed and will continue to do so. More folks are introduced to climbing at the gym nowadays rather than outside in nature. Sport climbing has greatly influenced the development of new routes. These changes are going to influence the culture of the sport. Many climbers have strong opinions about how trad and sport routes should coexist in major climbing areas. Our Sport has been mostly self-regulated, and most climbers want to keep it that way. Our climbing resources are finite. We have to use them wisely together.
Climbing has always been a breeding ground for advocates of harmony with nature. Many of the pioneers of the environmental movement were first climbers. I believe that the process of change in rockclimbing will be smoother and more positive if the future generations have the record of the opinions, perspectives and anecdotes of those climbers who established the routes.
I also believe that climbing will be more fun if we can share in the adventure of those who were on the route first.
The First Ascent Registry works like this. The first ascender creates a profile under their name. They tell us whatever they want to share about their experiences and opinions as a climber. They can write a little or a lot. They can tell us epic campfire stories or share the ethos of their adventures. They can tell us what climbing means to them. There is freedom of speech, but a climber cannot discuss racist, sexually explicit, pornographic, or criminal acts or use profanity since those are the rules for all communication on the website. I’m sure we will be able to get the truth out anyway.
Each route in the Rockclimbing.com database has a field for “FA Notes” The first ascender can easily create their route in the database if it isn’t already there, and link it to their profile. The “FA Notes” field gives the climber a chance to tell the story of a particular route. They can write a quick comment or a long story.
Each route will also have a place for everyone else’s comments about the route, beta, trip reports and feedback.
Not every old school climber will jump on the net and fiddle with our database. That makes this people’s history a community project. We need to talk to the pioneers of routes and record their stories with permission to put them in the public domain. To avoid a few pranksters from spoiling what cold be a great resource, those who wish to volunteer to collect data from other climbers will need to contact the manager of the area that contains the route or some other rockclimbing.com administrator to be authorized to post FA Data.
Let’s collect the history of our sport and pass it on. The Internet makes a worldwide database of history possible and free to all. You can make a difference in a unique experiment in history.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Annother great sport rout goes up. Portero Chico 2007 photo by Alex Spencer(C)2007
Is this really that much more noble than rap bolting? It's still a lot of work but you end up with all those bat hook holes...
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Well that didn't take long to bust the 1000 post mark. Quite a ride. All in all a very worthwhile debate and disscussion.
And it has been particularly enjoyable to not have to suffer through yet another "C of C" spew-a-thon or an LEB drivel drift on the front page.
But it raises a question. What is the most posts ever on a ST forum thread?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Sean's route, his right and honor to post the topo.
I don't have one, and anyway I defer to Sean. But he is new here and I'm pretty sure doesn't own a scanner, and may lack the skills to post a photo/drawing.
I'll tell you what I know. For one, Sean did draw a topo and sent it to R&I. They were tight on space, what with giving me so many words to fill in the South Face history (thanks, you guys at the mag), and having so many excellent Sean Reeder photos to squeeze in. One of my favorite shots is of Sarah Watson sidelit on the Mini Snake Dike pitch halfway up the headwall, and it barely got in kinda small.
Anyway, R&I punted on printing the topo just for space considerations. I asked them about putting it up on the web alongside the article (thanks again to R&I for posting it with nearly all the photos). They said it was -- I forget exactly, but somehow graphically indistinct enough to not reproduce well.
So I emailed wildone Ben Montoya, who's in El Portal with Sean and asked him if he could help Sean get another topo drawn and scanned and up here.
Just thought it might help you all to know that we are far from withholding or stalling on getting you the beta -- it's just technical problems. Starting with Sean being busy pounding nails and feeding his kids.
Way upthread I gave you ratings for the first 10 or 11 trad pitches, and Ben amplified on that.
Here's a bit more, just from my none-too-accurate memory. I recall Sean mentioning 70 bolts on that upper wall. I was too busy drilling the next hole to count. And I'm gonna guess that 15 draws would be ample for the crux pitch of the upper wall, the .11d pitch that comes off the A0 bolt ladder and traversed right to get to the bottom of the dike, then up it a ways. I think there have been a couple of shots of that pitch, with Sean crimping down hard. Fifteen should be more than enough draws for that pitch.
Now, if you take roughly 70 bolts and spread them over a thousand feet of climbing, and maybe that includes some of the double-bolt stances, you can do the math and realize the average runout.
Ain't no sport climb.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Thanks, Doug, that helps paint a clearer picture. :-)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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This really reminds me of the route "Birds of Fire" on Chiefhead in Rocky Mountain National Park. The route was established top down on a slab void of continious cracks. Richard Rossiter and his wife Joyce established the climb over a period of three to four weeks drilling by hand, putting in quality 3/8 inch bolts for protection and belays.
Chiefhead at the time was considered (like SFHD) sacred ground for the ground up style and caused the same uproar with locals around Boulder and Estes Park.
Go here and read the comment on the route...now considered one of the best face climbs and routes in all of RMNP.
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/colorado/alpine_rock/rmnp__rock/105754135
Let history be the judge of Sean route...not the gloom and doom crowd who hold on to the past because they are not part of the present.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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bob-
does the word "propogannda" have any meaning for you whatsoever?
just curious.
and btw- are you in politics?
becase you stay "on message" w/ the best of them.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Talk about bad style! Doug, if as you say, the upper pitches have some big runouts then that really is bad style. It is one thing to do a route ground up and force subsequent parties to do the same runouts that the FA had to experience. However, top roping a route to figure out where the bolts go and then creating runouts is really lame.
By top roping the route you have prior knowledge of what the climbing is like between the bolts. Those going for subsequent ascents ground up, on sight, do not. Hence, it is easier for the FA party to place the bolts farther apart since they know what is ahead. This is one very big reason why rap bolting, especially on routes where you aren't placing a lot of bolts per pitch is a bad idea. It is a slippery slope as many have been saying here.
Bruce
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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sorry bhilden, but that's a poor criticism until it comes om somene who has actually climbed the rig
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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There is a new 4 pitch slab climb on Rogers Rock NY The Matrix 5.8+ that was rap bolted. They installed 4 bolts per pitch on the first 3 60m pitches. Some would say that is crazy run out but in reality it is slightly more bolts than average for that part of the cliff. An excelent, fun climb, sporty but reasonably protected for slab climbing at the grade. Perhaps if the upper part of GU is slab that it was bolted in standard somewhat runout slab style. To rap bolt a climb and leave a dangerously run out finished product is pretty darn silly though.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Bruce, get a grip! You're babbling, man.
I just pointed out that the most well-bolted pitch is the upper wall crux, the 5.11d. By contrast, the last pitch to the summit is about 5.6. Do you really think that we would have spaced the bolts on that pitch at the same intervals as the hard stuff? We're not grid-chomping robots, and besides my arms were pretty wasted by then. So that pitch, for instance, is 5.6R. Deal with it.
You seem, perhaps, to be looking for reasons to revile what we did? Your attitude is your attitude, but don't insult me with fatuous assumptions.
I'll pass on squirming into those shoes.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Again this photo by Alex Spencer is the Reality of most bolt protected hard big wall ground up free climbs. Looking at this photo realisticly it is no much of a streach to say what the heck, Why don't we just top bolt it and not drill all those bat hook holes....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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For god sakes Bruce....go climb the route and stop making false assumptions....take Joe with you.
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nita
climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
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The Great Debate... is going to easily surpass,The Who in the Hell are you People thread.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Same could be said for you Bob-
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Tradman, your unflattering picture of someone with a kooky looking rig aid climbing with a power drill has no relevance here.
And by Matt's logic (you cannot criticize it if you haven't climbed it) there should be exactly one post on this thread, since as I understand it one person has climbed this route to date?
Somewhere up thread there was some talk about art. Anyone here know anything about music? Stravinsky wrote some of the best music ever. He was futuristic. Way ahead of his time. He achieved his artistic greatness while working within a very strict code of self imposed limits. It was these boundaries, he said, which gave him true creative freedom. Without them he would have been lost.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dirtykenny wrote: Same could be said for you Bob-
You are right...but I also don't have a issue with the route and might be on of a handful on this tread capable of climbing the whole route.
Ksolem wrote: Tradman, your unflattering picture of someone with a kooky looking rig aid climbing with a power drill has no relevance here.
Explain why!
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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What is more important in your opinion: climbing as cleanly as possible or climbing with the best style possible?
Hypocrisy: short rap bolted lines for my reasons are ok, fixed ropes are ok, bat hooks are ok, pounding pins is ok, powerdrills in YV to fix anchors are ok, BUT a rap bolted line with careful consideration of all factors involved is shameful??
I'd like to hear some GOOD reasons why GU was done wrong, so we could apply those reasons/lessons to future climbs that might be done in a similar style but by parties that don't have the experience to put up a quality route. But as of yet I haven't heard any well reasoned arguments. Just a lot of inflexible ideolgy without reasons behind it.
The only possible drawback I can think of is that the adventure of a ground up FA was lost. Is that more important than putting up a quality route?
Since a ground up FA was not done that is still waiting, someone could go up and drill some 1/4" bolts on lead if they really wanted to and get the ground up FA, after aiding the bolt ladder in the middle of the route of course.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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"And by Matt's logic (you cannot criticize it if you haven't climbed it) there should be exactly one post on this thread, since as I understand it one person has climbed this route to date?"
not that it's a very big deal, but you took that out of context. i was saying that you cannot at this point make the argument that the slab pitchs are "over-bolted", and that you would at least have to hear it from someone who'd been there, if not see it for yourself, in order to make that claim.
i did't feel like i was going out on a limb w/ that one...
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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DR, none of us has climbed the route and we have yet to see a topo so, obviously we are all speculating on what the protection is like on the upper pitches. I tried to make that clear in my post, I guess I did not and I apologize if you felt that was a personal attack.
One of the problems when rappel bolting slab climbing on rappel, and I am not saying this was done on SFHD, is that, by its nature, slab climbing can be very inobvious which is one of the reasons it can be a mental exercise as well as a physical exercise. Having even the slightest knowledge of what's ahead can dramatically change how a route is climbed and protected.
When bolting on lead, unless you are climbing way under one's comfort level, the bolts tend to be more closely in line with where both the mentally and physically demanding climbing is located. Being scared on lead is a good thing because most of us stop and drill, if we can.
I am not making any accusations, but, for me, this is one very big reason why rappel bolting slab routes is kind of lame.
Bruce
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Bob, As good as Birds of Fire is (and I have done it - surprise!), it was not done in the prevailing style of the area and that is exactly what this thread is about.
Those railing against Growing Up are using logic from condemning all rap bolting to condemning only the rap bolting on the SF of HD. It's the same outrage as the Birds of Fire debate, the rap bolting of routes in the Splatte and any number of other similar instances.
You have argued that there are other rap bolted routes in those areas and extended that argument to mean (at least this is what I read) that if one route has been rap bolted, the area is fair game. BUT, rap bolting is not the prevalent style of these areas- ground up is. Until such time as the majority of the routes are rap bolted, that will be the case.
I'm certainly not some anti-bolt nut case - rap bolt all you want in the sport climbing areas - I might even go climb some of the routes. I just think that there has to be a line drawn somewhere and, to me, Growing Up crosses that line, simply because it was a significant departure from the generally accepted style of the area. For others, like Coz, maybe this route signifies that the SF of HD is no longer his personal playground of terror - not to be climbed by others, just those with the stones to do so.
I'm guessing that Growing up gets a quick repeat - probably onsight and gets the conformation that it is a great and worthy route. I'm also guessing that subsequent parties to climb it will discover that it could have been bolted on lead - as a "death" route. The bottom line is that this route, like Barry Bonds, will always have that asterisk next to it. Some will view it as a killer line and some will view it as a travesty.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Thanks for clarifying, Bruce. I get more where you're coming from.
You said, "Being scared on lead is a good thing because most of us stop and drill, if we can."
I totally agree that being scared on lead is one of the core things about trad leading that we honor and want to protect. Leads me, like you, to "stop and drill, if we can."
We reluctantly concluded that the "if you can" part was starkly missing from all known routes on the central South Face to date. You can't. Not from stance. Not from hooks. Not often enough, anyway. Not ofen enough to keep from plunging this route too into what we considered the black hole of death routes. Not disrespecting those routes -- we're still in awe of them. But we were unwilling, personally, to climb such a route, or to leave behind such a route for others.
Why? One, it would not get done. Like the two routes next door don't get done. Kind of a waste of stellar stone.
Two, by leaving such a route behind, the karma would be on our heads for anyone who did try to follow it, and fell off, and came back down maimed or in a pine box.
Running it out is proud. But Coz, how do you feel about what your route did to Hank Caylor?
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Yo... we are going for 2000... crank it up!!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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DR said,
Running it out is proud. But Coz, how do you feel about what your route did to Hank Caylor?
that is the frickin most lame ass thing you have said this whole time!
any climber going out must accept their own risk of what may happen.
many have said you have been speaking from the heart. i am an old timer and have read many of your stories, but i think this thing hurts you as it should.
and this statement!?! WTF man i may except this lame ass sh%% from a newb but from you?
dude you need some meds...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Bob D posted:
" ...Dirtykenny wrote: Same could be said for you Bob-
You are right...but I also don't have a issue with the route and might be on of a handful on this tread capable of climbing the whole route. "
Jeez Bob. That's a pretty high horse there. I heard that rig is only 5.12...
" ...Ksolem wrote: Tradman, your unflattering picture of someone with a kooky looking rig aid climbing with a power drill has no relevance here.
Explain why! "
Because it shows a tactic which has no place on the SF of HD either legally or otherwise. The picture was posted as a justfication for rap bolting on a big wall. The guy is aid climbing with a power drill. My opinion is that if this tactic and or rap bolting were the only options the route should have been left for the future. But you are mistaken if you think I am about "gloom and doom" or "holding onto the past." Rather, I think we cannot predict what the future will hold.
Anyway we each have a right to our opnions and that's about the end of it for me...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Running it out is proud. But Coz, how do you feel about what your route did to Hank Caylor? "
DR, I also feel compelled to question this one and to butcher a phrase from Ron and the ST gun lobby: Routes don't do anything to people, people do things to themselves. And Hank, god bless him, has no short resume in that particular regard. Do we ask the same question of what the route did to Dean Potter? This question represents exactly the inversion of responsibility inherent in the notions of 'development' and 'community service'. I can't help but believe this was your 'safety monitor' speaking quite loudly.
And now I'm curious - and Bob, feel free to jump in here - you're a guide of long standing and you (and Bob) actively promote growth in climbing and bringing all manner of folks into the fold. To my eyes that 'promotion' brings traditional ideas of 'fitness' into play. And bolting - sport or trad (I'm assuming here DR and Sean consider Growing Up to be top-down 'trad bolting') - then plays a pivotal role in the dance between fitness and risk by either diminishing risk to scale fitness down to 'normal' suburban folk (many bolts) or accentuating risk to scale fitness up to a select few bold climbers.
'Developers' manage the dial on the 'fitness control' as it were. Exactly how do you go about deciding where to set the dial for any given climb you are 'constructing'? And to what degree is rapping about better control over the setting of that dial? And I believe I here you saying hand as opposed to power drilling played a role here as well which then puts another dynamic into play for the 'developer', one of a balance between responsibility to future climbers vs. the level of toil one is prepared to commit to.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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A topo...
I believe this will show us all where the route is going.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Thanks, Simon - where'd that come from? The creator should get some credit for it.
To add to my lengthy post from last night, I don't think other climbers will look at what was done to create Growing Up, and see it as a precedent that gives carte blanche to rap bolting in the Valley, or on Half Dome. Quite the opposite - I suspect most climbers will see Growing Up as sui generis, a one off thing, at least as far as free climbing goes. Something that is accepted given the unique circumstances of its creation, but not tactics that are generally tolerated. There are precedents elsewhere in the Valley for such things - climbs that were created by leading climbers of the day, using techniques that weren't generally used or perhaps considered acceptable, but that were tolerated in the circumstances.
One example seems to be Wheat Thin - see http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=257921 It seems to have involved trundling and rap bolting.
The many climbs that were stripped of dirt and vegetation on rappel so that they could be protected (with nuts) and climbed are another example - I believe Outer Limits is one.
There are supposedly a few examples of deliberate pin scarring to create holds, and for all I know maybe some creative chipping.
No one seems to have concluded "Well, because Haan and Bridwell did what they did on Wheat Thin, I can do that sort of thing anywhere I want in the Valley", or anything of that sort. Quite the opposite. The general thinking seems to be that these things are exceptions that prove a rule - OK for community leaders to experiment with, but no more.
Of course, it may be that climbers are up to all sorts of "unethical" naughtiness in the Valley, and just keeping quiet about it - don't tell, don't ask. I hope not - if the route is that important to you, have the courage of your convictions, and tell others what you've done.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I agree Hawkeye, "any climber going out must accept their own risk of what may happen." I do, every time I set foot on stone.
But I also have a responsibility for the character of a new route I leave behind. Growing Up has a balance of trad and beyond-trad, of reasonably protected with a bit runout. It has well-crafted fat bolts. I'm proud of the route.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Since Mighty asked, (and I should have included it) the "Evolvo" artwork (with one modification) was first done by B. H. Shadduck, PhD. It appears in his old text, "Jocko-Homo Heavenbound. The book formed the basis for Mark Mothersbaugh to create the group DEVO.
Just seemed so right, somehow.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe...the bolts should be in line with the route grade. A 5.9 bolted route should protect in a reasonable matter for a competent 5.9 leader.
Somewhat unfair if a 5.12 climber bolted a 5.9 route on rappel with the minimal amount of bolts for him to lead the climb.
The real deal for me is that both Sean and Doug are two very competent climbers who I trust did the right thing after they made the decision to finish the top pitches on rappel.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"Two, by leaving such a route behind, the karma would be on our heads for anyone who did try to follow it, and fell off, and came back down maimed or in a pine box."
Serious?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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fattrad,
Yes, we considered "just not doing the route at all." We considered just about every option our little brains and slightly bigger hearts could imagine. We pondered the options for weeks. Agonized over the implications, as I mentioned earlier. If you had been there you would have been bored out of your gourd -- sometimes out deliberations were more meandering or more circular than they can get on this Forum.
And then we made our choice.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Ksolem the guy in fact is aiding with a powewr drill but what he is actually doing is putting up a 5.12 free climb ground up on a big wall. The only thing that changes without the Bosch is the guy is hand drilling. The rest of the tactics are the same. The relavence is that that is what it boils down to when you set a hard bolt protected free climb on lead. A bunch of aid and generaly more holes than if you had rap bolted it.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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"Running it out is proud. But Coz, how do you feel about what your route did to Hank Caylor?"
that is the frickin most lame ass thing you [DR] have said this whole time!
I disagree. I help put up a route that has a serious fall potential.
When I think about the route, I worry about folks flying and getting
seriously injured. I know, that in part, I would be responsible. Not legally,
mind you. But I would have had a hand in it.
I also agree, when you climb, you must take responsibility for your
own actions.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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"Two, by leaving such a route behind, the karma would be on our heads for anyone who did try to follow it, and fell off, and came back down maimed or in a pine box."
"Serious?"
Yeah, Melissa. Don't you feel at least some responsibility for the fallout from your actions?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Tradman- I know exactly what your buddy in the pic is doing. But your claim that most routes bolted ground up have more holes than those done top down is just rediculous.
If anyone wants to see some excellent examples of what is possible drilling by hand from stances, go do some of Ron Carson's routes on Dome Rock, near the California Needles. Your opinion of what is possible in this domain will likely change.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I've climbed some of Ron's Dome Rock routes. High standard climbing and thin drill stances. But I assure you that this is different.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Ksolem wrote: If anyone wants to see some excellent examples of what is possible drilling by hand from stances, go do some of Ron Carson's routes on Dome Rock, near the California Needles. Your opinion of what is possible in this domain will likely change.
Were they from free stances or from hooks, angle of rock over 75 degrees and polished or feature granite??
What happens on one rock doesn't make it possible for another.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Ksolem. It all depends on how steep it is, how hard it is and what the features are. I am merly pointing out that ground up is often not as pretty as the romantic notions would have it.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Free stances. No hooks. Steep polished slab.
Chemotherapy and Carsonoma are apparently a good bit more difficult than the upper half of GU, based on what has been said earlier here. But actually the most impressive stance drilled bolt he put in there is the crux pro for the 5.11 route called Skid Row. Many people fall just trying to clip it.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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No one called "ground up" tactics/style to be pretty--only FAIR.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Well good on him (Carson), but phoque the Robbin's "Puritan" 'tude...I'm more with Harding, climbing's an "elite egalitarian" type o' activity.
Running it out is proud. But Coz, how do you feel about what your route did to Hank Caylor?
that is the frickin most lame ass thing you have said this whole time!
Not at all, I think that is completely fair game...if you don't think "ego" is involved in any of this biz; (perhaps ex'es, drinking, etc) then I think yer completely unrealistic...and again, who had dee powerdrillz on dee captain? (*not just replacement, there's a big asterisk for ya!).
Good on you, 2 DR. I remember the VC's getting all fired up (looks like his-story repeatin' itself...) Mojede, you better define "it" better; the trads that taught me...see upthread...seen plenty o' botched routes of all types in my days. Even belayed some...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Ksolem...pretty impressive...I have drill up to 5.12 on stances and have not always got the bolt where needed to protect the crux or dangerous moves.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"Yeah, Melissa. Don't you feel at least some responsibility for the fallout from your actions?"
The only times someone taking a winger on a route would fall into the category of "fallout from my actions" would be
...I was that person who made some bad choices regarding my abilities vs. the demands of the route.
...I was belaying and yarded my leader off
...I lied to someone to get them to do something that they would not have done otherwise
...I booby trapped gear that they weighted
Bolting to keep the LCD from hurting themself just doesn't work b/c there are so many ways for the LCD to accomplish that.
FWIW, based on the article that I read, I didn't have any issue w/ you guys coming in from the top to see if the route could be finished. I just think the idea that someone like Coz would rack up bad karma for not protecting a competant climber like Hankster from himself out there.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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426, call me a nooB, but the term "ground-up" (the it to which you refer?) is self-defining-- starting from the ground (dirt/terra firma/ bottom) and going UP.
Again, not always pretty and neat, but FAIR.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Well, he seemed to hide under the guise of "for the greater good" on the Muir...and I was someone who was in favor (having clipped the bolts)...so again, it just seems *slightly* hypocritical...
Mojede, check yer mail...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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426 wrote: the trads that taught me always said ground up is strictly "no hooks, no aid, no batts, stance only, no falls"...any "breach" of "ethics" was exactly that...JTO
Those breaches of style (you call ethics) started way before sport climbing ever existed. Who we going to blame them on??? :)
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Blame Me...I always wanted to hang and figure out moves...but I'd be immediately lowered off....meh!
"Get yer foot off that bolt, Gerughty!"-FS
Good point about "style"...
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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FAIR? That's a new one on me? I never heard that the point of climbing was some kind of fairness.
Fair to who? First ascentionist? Early repeaters? The rock? Gumbies?
If the main goal is to be fair to the largest number of potential climbers, probably better to rap bolt.
If it's some future super-Alex Honnold we want to treat fairly, maybe better not to bolt at all, ground up or otherwise.
If it's the first ascentionist, maybe ground-up is best. But I'd say that's pretty limiting in a very selfish way.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Melissa,
My feeling responsibility stemmed from FA decisions about how runout; your list was all about repeats.
And as far as keeping "the LCD from hurting themselves," we're talking 11+ climbing on the upper wall. I'm not too worried about any LCD-types wandering onto it. Just concerned about good climbers like Hank getting really racked up.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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I posted about half way through this thread, so I am not posting this one just to push the numbers up.
Kevin, good post (April 7 1:41, I think).
Doug I met you once with Smoke Blanchard in the Palisades back in the early 1970s. I always had respect for you as a climber and mountaineer. Still do.
I must say, there are some egos in the climbing world, but I guess that has always been the case. Sort of one thing that always turned me off, though I have been climbing since 1969 and I love it. Still, some of the personalities. Yet, that is life and the world.
I find this thread sad and funny at the same time.
So I suppose, the question is: Do you circumcise your child or not?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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426, good enough and point well made, but exceptions to the "rule" do not the rule make.
stevep: it sounds as if you are advocating "the ends justify the means". In a gentleperson's sport, "fair" is the basics for style and ethics.
And yes, the term is broad and undefinable, yet each one of us knows exactly what it means to us personally.
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Double D
climber
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Doug:
I’m thinking back, way back, to the time(s) I’ve met you in Tahoe. Now correct me if I’m wrong, but you were older than me then…so you gotta be older than me now. So I’m just saying in my feeble brain, I’m impressed that you’re still tooling around anywhere that involves that much hiking, rappelling and the kind!
It sounds like you and Sean put up a damn fine route. Many classic face climbs were put up off of bolt ladders, Golden Bars, The Calf, Piece de Resistance, Mr. Toads Wild Ride and the list goes on and on. The fact is, 1st ascents are a lot of work and to a degree do serve the future generations. I only wish that I was a good enough climber to even consider climbing a route of this caliper.
Thanks for a lifetime of inspiration (and mis-haps!) derived from your articles.
Dave Diegelman
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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I'd bet that Hank sees his accident as a result of his choices, not Coz's, but who the hell knows.
I thought your were talking about responsability for what happens to people on repeats of your route as well?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Nice post DD...the ones who were there and not blinded by a certain dogma understand what did and didn't happens!
Trad-climbing has it's share of "demons in closet".
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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I'm no one to speak for DR, but there is a possibility that there exists a subset of the climbing population that actually wants to see people get hurt or killed on "their" route.
Not I...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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"After much deliberation and consideration, I have discovered the goal of rock climbing to be:
1) To flash your hardest problems.
2) To have you miserably fail on mine.
3) To become the object of sexual desire to your girlfriends."
Paraphrased from TS & PP after the FFA of The Salathe.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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k-man,
You know, the best comedy is so funny because there's so much truth hidden in it.
Your post is very funny.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Would this be a good time to have a discussion about the 'Great Canadian Knife', a climb in the Cirque of the Unclimbables established by PP and TS, with help from GR? I believe it involved full-on rappel bolting and cleaning, possibly even with a power drill. It's just outside Nahanni National Park, and so perhaps not subject to whatever limitations apply in the park in terms of such things. But it's undoubtedly in a full on wilderness.
The route was established (if you like, developed) about ten years ago, and I saw a presentation on it. I believe TS and PP thought it was a sort of futuristic climb - one way in which climbing in such areas might go. They also felt it couldn't be climbed in any other way. I haven't heard of a second ascent, although several parties go to the Cirque each year.
Dead end or futuristic?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Nice post DD...the ones who were there and not blinded by a certain dogma understand what did and didn't happens!"
"Trad-climbing has it's share of "demons in closet"."
Just when we might be turning a corner - POW! - out comes the 'revisionist history' card once again in an attempt to insinuate the exceptions were the rule.
To be honest, it's always a bit trying and tiring to see this sort of thing. And for a guy who claims to not watch Fox News, you keep using their methods. What's the deal, is this a matter of you needing our collective history to support your personal one? I got the impression you were completely comfortable with and proud of your history and role as they stood without resorting to such tactics.
Again, we didn't leap from pitons to bolts in a single breath and no one is saying that every line got put up clean - far from it - but nothing about those exceptions in total in any way detracts from what was accomplished. And the notion posted much earlier in the thread that all great routes were / are essentially hack jobs to one degree or another is equally the stuff of malodorous fabrication.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: To be honest, it's always a bit trying and tiring to see this sort of thing. And for a guy who claims to not watch Fox News, you keep using their methods. What's the deal, is this a matter of you needing our collective history to support your personal one? I got the impression you were completely comfortable with and proud of your history and role as they stood without resorting to such tactics.
Joe... what is trying is your constant belittling of anything related to bolts and climbers who use them. I am not blinded by romantic daydream about trad-climbers and their lofty better-than-thou approach to climbing...most of us who were pushing hard (myself included) were bending the rules/style of the day.
That is a fact!
Joe wrote: exceptions were the rule.
I never said that...I said some "demons in the closet"
Fact again...and if your up to task...prove me wrong.
I was there and I knew what happened...I'm not degrading anyone but being honest with what when on behinds the scene.
No group (trad, aid, boulderer, sport) should be throwing stones...they all live in glass houses.
Joe wrote: And the notion posted much earlier in the thread that all great routes were / are essentially hack jobs to one degree or another is equally the stuff of malodorous fabrication.
Joe...that quote was from Jim Erickson...one of the purest and finest free-climbers of the 70's. What he was saying is that sometimes you have to change your way of thinking to do a route that demands thinking out side the box. Using means that would be considered "dubious"...by those that adhere to a strict style.
Think Genesis in Eldo...Supercrack in the Gunks...Bachar-Yerian...and so on.
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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DR said, "Two, by leaving such a route behind, the karma would be on our heads for anyone who did try to follow it, and fell off, and came back down maimed or in a pine box."
Melissa said, "Serious?"
DR said, "Yeah, Melissa. Don't you feel at least some responsibility for the fallout from your actions?"
I have done plenty of FA's that are very dangerous. Like many here on ST it was the way we did it back in the day. Minimum impact, that and the fact that the rock dictates how you can protect it while climbing ground up.
To think that the FAist is somehow responsible is not a reasonable line of thinking.
I offer this up with regards to that, people have gotten hurt on two routes that I did the FA of and those were not the R/X ones, they were sport routes that were adequately protected. On one the rock exploded around a bolt many years after the FA (in Arkansas), and on the other a loose rock came off nearly 15 years after the FA (Hellgate, UT).
Now as a caring human being I may have felt bad for those folks, I really did. But I also knew that it was not my responsibility.
This burden of trying to protect other climbers that come after you is a nice thought, but in practice is not possible. It typically is not the scary dangerous routes that hurt people it is the safe ones where mistakes are made and or something bad happens.
If you Doug are really concerned with protecting the next party then I would offer up that you are out of luck, there is not a way to do that.
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Rokrover
Trad climber
SB, CA
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Climbing ethics are a human construct so never absolute but rather defined by a culture evolved through precedence. In this context GU does not fit the established culture of SF HD routes. My opinion is based on pioneering 5.10 routes in the 1960’s with Rick White who later made the first Australian ascent of the Nose and Salathe. We were strongly influenced by Chouinard, RR, Doug Scott then Henry Barber, and struggled with the ethical transition from pins to nuts then anti bolt. Later I absorbed the clean climbing ethic of the ‘Gunks under the tutelage of jstan.
From this old-timer’s perspective I do not view GU as a logical evolution of climbing but rather an aberrant exploitation of rock already hallowed by a unique culture from visionary pioneers. As Reinhold Messner said – technology can conquer the impossible. The way of doing is more important than the result. Yosemite is diverse enough to support the broadest spectrum of climbing cultures and surely the SF of HD should remain a special place and example to the future of what is possible through man’s mastery of himself, not technology.
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Jacko
Trad climber
Grass Valley Ca.
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This is Halfdome people.The greatest most beautiful Rock on the planet..This is the place where Line's should be drawn.It should be a no brainer not to Rap Bolt this wall.I can't believe these 2 or 3 great climber's(and good guy's) wouldn't have expected a ShitStorm to follow their actions.Well I'm with the Shitstormer's, great job on the bottom half of the climb and I guess you know how I feel about the top..Climbing, is from the ground up......Jacko
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Note to rokrover and jacko.
The south face of half dome shouldn't be seen as some sacrosanct temple where nothing bad ever happened. Prior to Growing Up, there were only a few routes there. Karma and Southern Belle appear to have been to ground up with minimal bolting and damage to the resource. The first route, while ground up, has loads of holes in it, and the topo of Cataclismic Megasheer shows what appear to be two pitches of bolt ladder. Shouldn't those parties have waited until they could do routes with less damage to the rock, or not done them at all? Or is all the we care about going ground up? In that case, all hail the Compressor Route on Cerro Torre, I think that was ground up.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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golsen, apples and oranges. The folks that got hurt were on sport routes and things happened that were more or less out of your control as the first ascentionists.
But...you said the rock around the bolt exploded. Didn't you ever think that maybe you placed the bolt in bad rock, and therefore were somewhat responsible for it exploding? I know that thought would cross my mind.
We cannot be responsible for those that climb the routes we "open" after we're done. However, I know I would not feel great if somebody took a header off something I had a hand in making. If you don't feel that, fine. But be aware, others can, and do, have those feelings.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Stand down Jacko ya little pissant !! I can't believe you're siding with the dogmatic absolutists ! Then again, you are a republican! Please get prior approval from me before you post again!
Cracko
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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The greatest most beautiful Rock on the planet.
[ed: Nameless Tower is awfully beautiful too.]
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Wes Allen
Boulder climber
KY
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So, I don't really have a say in this whole deal, but thread like this always remind me of Loki's opening rant in the movie Dogma:
" Organized [climbing] religion destroys who we are by inhibiting our actions, by inhibiting our decisions, out of fear of some intangible parent figure, who shakes a finger at us from thousands [tens] of years ago and says "do it...do it and I'll f*#king spank you!""
But, then again, I am a rap bolting sport climber / bouldererer from KY...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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A few thoughts on ground up climbing…
One of the things which drew me into climbing years ago, and has kept me coming back for more ever since is the beautiful uncertainty of the enterprise. You make your very best effort and sometimes you really succeed, while other times you have to struggle to find some reward in failure.
One of my favorite ways to play that uncertain game is to climb a new route ground up without preview. This is the way I have chosen to climb, and while it means I have done many fewer routes than I could have otherwise, I have found it most rewarding. I strayed from my creed once. It was a route in Josh and we TR’d it first because it was a dicey thing in a prominent location so I did not want to drill holes until we knew it would go. I went on to do the climb ground up, but it became a technical exercise more than an adventure and so not as much fun as some others.
I have never “bolt laddered” either. Just not my thing, and it’s another way of narrowing my choice in routes.
About other people doing my routes? I try to do climbs I am proud of. Some people like them, but most are not for everybody. I think there is plenty of room for this in climbing. For the most part I climb these routes for my own reasons, not really thinking of the community as a whole, although I freely admit that it gives me pleasure and satisfaction when other climbers enjoy them.
A while ago I decided to quit worrying about how other folks did their climbing, but I would stick to my way for my routes. This thread got me to stray from that position, though. Why do I feel strongly about this route, when most of the time I could care less anymore? It is the double whammy of Doug Robinson, a statesman of our sport being involved, combined with the location of the route, which drew me out.
I do have to tip my hat to Sean and DR for being part of the discussion here. I disagree with your tactics up there but admire you for sticking to your guns and having it out with us. Time will tell if you have opened a Pandora’s box or it is all just part of the flow.
Peace, over and out.
Kris Solem
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Geezus, is anyone not lurking the taco?
Can we get Royal or Frost to put up a few thoughts?
:D?
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chossyslab
climber
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"I think Harding, were he with us, would have a good laugh at the climbers that are so outraged by this route today. And Galen would probably side with the GU crew also. Were he with us, he'd be running up and down the cables to photo the route."
im sorry but you cant really expect to be able to speak for them, can you? frankly you just don't know.
"So the route is controversial. Some people inherently cling to the past and tradition, and are threatened by change and new ideas. Others see new things with an open mind, and welcome a fresh perspective. The latter rarely impose their morals on the former. That's human nature."
So now your saying those of us who have a problem with this route are not open minded? Im a very open minded person and, like you said, "welcome a fresh perspective" but thats not what this is about. What if my new perspective included blasting a road up the north fork trail so i could turn the east face of whitney into my weekend crag? because wouldnt this new idea make all that great climbing more accessible to "the masses"? Just because things are new doesnt make them revolutionary or inherently good.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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....and just because something is legal, doesn't necessarily make it right.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Chossy,
And, "blasting a road up the north fork trail so i could turn the east face of whitney into my weekend crag?" is the same thing as what was done on GU ??? I just don't understand this analogy! You know what I am truly concerned about ?? Coming over the top of Snake Dike after a glorious day of climbing and seeing 400+ people, half of them dressed in pajamas, stampede for the cables at the first flash of lightening. Now that is something that really impacts my climbing experience. Bolts on a face that I can hardly see, let alone climb, just don't get my panties in a bunch !! Especially when you consider how many climbs I have enjoyed over the years that were "not put up in good style". GU is in, it is over! It is not the first controversial route and won't be the last. Let's get to 2000 posts and then all sit down and have a F@cking beer !!!
Cracko
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Cracko wrote: Let's get to 2000 posts and then all sit down and have a F@cking beer !!!
I'm in...maybe the next facelift!
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Sluggo
Big Wall climber
zanadu
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Here's the double whammy Kris :
THEY RAPBOLTED AN AID CLIMB !!
Can you imagine the absurdity of drilling a bolt ladder on rappel?
WHACK :-(
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Few years ago back east a copuple of strong young guys chopped some bolts from a 5.6 trade rout including a bolted belay that had been there longer than these punks had been alive. They then got drunk and hammered a quater keg into the chimny/offwidth of pitch two of Moby Grape. They may have gotten drunk and retro kegged Moby a week or so before the chopping spree? The exact time sequence eludes me now... That keg was fixed for about a year and you could see it from the highway a half mile or so away. ( Low impact retro fixed gear) Then they grew up a bit and have been climbing all kinds of hard stuff and a lot of it has bolts. Pretty darn suer that not all of those bolts went in ground up. Yea, theres allways skeletons if you know where to look;)
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Tom Brassel was the guy that left the keg.
He moved to Fort Collins, you may search Google if you want to prosecute...I don't know, it has been so long...
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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I've read "downward bound", and would like some help getting the excellent Harding qoute about people verbatim.
It was something to the effect of, "Climbing is stupid. I look out at all the people in the world and think of all the stupid f*#king stipidity, and just think, man, this is stupid."
Or something to that effect (help me out)
Semper Farcisimus!.
edit, FOUND IT!
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Be careful with Brassell, BTW.
He was a stud cross country runner turned rocker, he ran a sub 10 two mile his softmore year at Homestead, awesome, but once got DQ'ed for stuffing Atomic Balm up a ducks ass at a meet, the duck died, he got whacked, but went on to set records.
Also cut off a bears dick from hetch hetchy road kill, used to whip it out in the quad at high school.
you can imagine the climber this guy was.
I ran with all thes freaks.
I had the fastest three mile in the nation my freshman year, so they bumped me to varsity.
then my tendons snapped.
http://www.dyestatcal.com/ATHLETICS/XC/1968/homested.htm#Varsity%20Boys
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Warren Harding:
“It’s a genetic combination of stuff. I can just look at the stupidity of humankind without being a Democrat, Republican, Christian or Muslim. I look and think, ‘What a bunch of stupid f*#king stupidity.’ Going back to my early years, I’ve always had one f*#k of a strong mind. Fortunately, it didn’t lead to raping, burning and pillaging. By a strong mind, I mean someone coming up to me and telling me ‘Oh, Warren, this is all wrong.’ I’d say, ‘Oh really? Well, frankly that’s what you think. Now, are you telling me that you have a better mind than I do? No, I don’t think so!’ Actually, I’ve never said this to anyone, but my attitude is: Hey fella, you do your climbs, and I’ll do mine.”
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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you know whats funny is that, if you look at those results, what a slaughter!
We used to line up with 100 people from 10 schools, and get, 1 2 3 4 5.
maybe some guy was juiced and had a freak day, but we would get him the next time.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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1098 mental patient in custody!
edit: of course you are right Mustang. I must be the mental patient!
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Mustang
climber
From the wild, not the ranch
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I believe that would be 1096, Jody????
edit: nick d, there are more than jest a few here:)
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Let's see who deletes their post so they can have 1100.
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Dr. Taco
Social climber
New Freedonia, Caledonia
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Dr. Taco is concerned.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Does anyone here have a job ? Where in God's name do you find so much time to do this. I need to know the secret to this. I'm working way too much at this time in my life and obviously don't need to be. I must be stupid.
I'm not waiting for 2,000 posts. I'm 1/2 way through a 6 pack already.
Peace,
Sean.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sean,
Jobs suck.
Ha....
Thanks for sharing your sixer with us!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sean wrote
"Does anyone here have a job ? Where in God's name do you find so much time to do this"
Must.... Resist......
I usually just take time out from more productive writing and activities in favor of the addictive quality of the internet and in most particular Supertopo.
Accomplish less! Post more!
Step away from the keyboard buddy or you'll fall down the wormhole
;-)
Karl
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Sean, become a "stay at home dad", you'll be amazed at how much you can do in between bfastlunchdinner.
I hope your route gets climbed often and gets rave reviews--it is now "in the can".
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Buggs
Trad climber
Eagle River, Alaska
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This thread is driving me crazy, I obsess day and night, by the time i'm done reading posts there are more posts.
Hey Doug(Buchanen)! Glad to hear you are still "Raging against the Machine." I'll have to get up there to visit soon.
Chossyslab, Have you started from the beginning and read EVERY post yet? You must in order to get the full effect...
Survival, you and jobs have alot in common. HHHHAAAAA!!!
Sean, its all cool or maybe its not. Beer is good.
DR, you have good diction and write well. Maybe that might be your calling?
Loomis, that rappin Smiley made me LOL!
I look forward to meeting many of you at Facelift in Sep!!
Keep up the dialogue, there is an answer, some common ground. Bet we'll find it before 2000.
Unless Coz chops the thread...can he do that?
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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From "Downward Bound"
Batso: But even more exciting were the great developments in "ethics". Royal Robbins and his followers were really becoming entrenched in Yosmeite Valley and were clearly established as the "top climbers". Wonderful - except that they strove to make climbing into a great moral crusade that should be conducted according to some sort of code (which they establish). They worried most about "excessive" placing of bolts and use of fixed ropes on climbing routes.
Penthouse Pundit: Use of bolts, as you certainly must know, guarantees the outcome and completely eliminates the adventure.
Batso: Climbing is quite adventurous enough for me - bolts or no bolts.
Same sh#t......different decade !! This is good !!!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Buggs,
You made me choke on my cookie.
The thought of you always makes me want to go work out and do some bold climbing...
Lucky for me it's dark here and I have better things to do, like worry about the fate of Half Dome.
Tropical Hot Dog Night!
Like two flamingos in a fruuuit fight,
everything's wrong at the same time it's riiight!
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Cracko: I'd keep in mind that Robbins' camp got the last word with Camp 4.
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Sean Jones
climber
|
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If I was a stay at home dad, my family would shrivel up and die.
Bills are flying at me like American warheads fly at Iraq or any other smaller country that doesn't do as we say or give us what we want.
However, today I was a stay at home dad. Hats off to all the ladys (and some men) doing the hardest job on Earth.
I'm pushing for the end of the 5th beer now and starting to go cross eyed looking at the screen.
Just unbuttoned the top 2 buttons on my pants to let my belly relax. Oh god, It's late spring already and I'm still fat. Better pull it all together before the next photo shoot.
I guess I can't eat any food tomarrow to try and balance it all out. Oh god, I really am getting sucked into the computer.
I'll try and hang in there until the end of the 6th beer.
Are we at 2,000 yet ?
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
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good job Sean and Doug!
f*#k*n' A!
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho
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At this point, who the Hell cares(or even remembers...) New Topic, please...
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Taste Test:
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Jacko
Trad climber
Grass Valley Ca.
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Cracko,Harding started at the bottom and climbed to the top..with gear that no sane man would use today.. a little bit different than Rap Bolting....Jacko
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho
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Even squirrels won't go for 'Dog Style' Beer, Eh, Wisconsin?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Cracko and Jacko really seem to have a handle on this thing.... Festus?
Rumor hot off the press: a chopping crew from Nevada is en-route right now. Vroom Vroom?
This whole thing could be a T10, and perhaps the greatest troll yet on the Taco.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Sean,
it may be obvious, but I think one big reason there are so many posts is that a number of people have, to varying degrees, issues with the sytle of the ascent of your route and don't subscribe to the slogan "shut up and climb." And contrary to a lot of flak these same people seem to be taking, strongly holding onto your beliefs isn't a bad thing, especially if you truly believe them.
Bruce
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
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New topic?? OK...
Is anybody else's laundry piling up? I mean, it takes me a lot of time to wade through all this stuff...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sean wrote: However, today I was a stay at home dad. Hats off to all the ladys (and some men) doing the hardest job on Earth.
My wife was a stay at home mom...climbed 5.13 everyday. I have the highest respect for her and the wonderful job she did raising three healthy and happy children.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sh*t man, ALL my chores are weak since this thread started.
Interesting, serious, funny, relevant, irrelevant, poignant, poetic, nonsense...it's all in here man.
I'm more confused and enlightened at the same time!
Did I actually write poignant?
Some of you rock heads can't even spell that word, much less define it!!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
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Seriously, I'm losing track. I can't tell which posts I've read and which are new.
Can somebody please summarize this thread for me?
TIA...
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couchmaster
climber
|
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I feel sick to my stomach that I've read every post of this thread so far:-)
BTW, Hank: that still must have been quite the story on Southern Belle. Didn't you have a cover artical in Climbing mag on some worlds hardest test piece like a year ago? I've climbed a couple of times with Alan Lester in the 80's, what a great guy - wish I could get in that kind of shape. Topnotch dude Alan. In fact there might be very few folks I'd rather have with me if I broke both my ankles and had to do a Doug Scott low crawl down a long valley.....if thats what really happened. Makes my nards shrivel anyway thinking of it. Bottom line though, if one of the top climbers in the US can get banged up that bad on a route like that, does it not suggest a few more bolts might be in order? It limits a route to maybe 4-10 parties in the world being able to do it and survive, and seems to give some grist to the other folks mill.
Regards to all on both sides of this endless yammer-a-thon:-)
Bill Coe
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Some routes are SUPPOSED to be limited to 4-10 parties in the world!
Regards to you too Bill.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Summary for the Kman:
SFHD rap bolted by a naked talus runner and a pro climber, who also does construction to feed his kids. Route is probably great, but since style is still important to many, FA guys are getting an earful. Other guys are loving the new way to do giant walls safely, and are coming to the defense of the FA guys. Many old crustys in the fray. Lots of bad spelling. Young guys poking old guys with sharpened stick clips.... old guys peeing on ball-less young guys..... Since opinions are like bungholes, even 5.4 leaders from the Gunks are lipping up along with the hardest of the hard from every era. No end in sight.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Russ nails it. (So to speak.)
I can only add that well over 95% of the posters to the thread are male, and that it seems likely to set an all-time SuperTopo record (for length), perhaps even surpassing the cumulative Stonemasters threads. It may even stagger on until the FaceLift in September, where those with sufficient stamina and interest can continue the discussion. If, that is, the silent majority allow it.
Edit: All contributors will now be sentenced to a trip in the Total Perspective Vortex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Perspective_Vortex
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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K-man asked for a summary.....
its all about egos.
Bruce
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Funny sh#t Russ...you the man...nice for keeping it light.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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RE:
"nice for keeping it light."
it's all good but sure seems like a lot of the nay-sayers are
sounding pretty bitter and unhappy - if that's what your climbing
career's have done for you (to you?) fu*k, I mean, why even bother...
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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I can only add that well over 95% of the posters to the thread are male, and that it seems likely to set an all-time SuperTopo record,…..
Anders, many females experience “competitive anxiety” when exposed to males contending strongly with one another. Women may have conscious or subconscious fear of the burnout of social cohesion and even collapse of social structure when aggressive males begin “running off the rails.”
That, along with women’s socialization as subordinates tends to increase withdrawal (and forum absenteeism) when competitive ridicule, chest thumping and stubborn ranting are employed by males making their mark.
With lessened accountability on the internet, many men choose to come off as rogue alpha males, anxious to contend and demonstrate mastery in a charged controversy.
Climbing is not inherently competitive. But American culture nurtures the competitive mindset, and in the American climbing scene, competitive models prevail i.e.; the focus on elitism, first ascents, rigid style archetypes are cultivated at the expense of cooperation, solidarity and community.
Many on this thread have displayed great civility and made salient points without getting hostile or obnoxious. But ubiquitous belligerence, by some, and motivation to elevate one’s standing by slagging on someone else’s climb obviously taint the debate.
Competitive mindset cocoons individuals in their own self righteousness. Despite outstanding posts by a significant number of individuals, I think this thread will be remembered as another testosterone fest.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
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Russ,
I laughed up a lung. Thanks a lot.
Raydog, I've heard plenty of bitterness from both camps. Plenty of rap-bolters don't like having their gems called "bad style".
You know what they say, "Bitterness is in the tongue of the beholder."
Wow Jennie,
That is really insightful and wise.
Are you hot?
Just kidding.:)
So do women not have an opinion about rap bolting?
All this talk of safety makes me think of a letter to the editor a few years back. Some person had written that this climbing was dangerous, and that these climbs required more bolts to make them safe for everyone. I apologize for not having the exact qoute but Mark Wilford responded with something like: " I didn't start climbing because it was safe all the time. I have an idea, let's just bulldoze all these mountains down and make everything flat. Then we can all be safe."
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
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Thought Bayard was part of the Keg fixing???
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
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RE:
"I've heard plenty of bitterness from both camps. Plenty of rap-bolters don't like having their gems called "bad style".
You know what they say, "Bitterness is in the tongue of the beholder." "
hey, fair enough - don't let me stop the fun...
carry on!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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OK, everybody join in for the chorus:
"Old and in the fra--aaay"
Thanks, Russ. Best thing for me here is breaking out Laughing Out Loud. Not just the thought of it, a token lol, but from my gut. Often too. God I love climbers.
Need it too, boy. Chores are way beyond piling up here -- I'm having trouble wading through the debris to get to the kitchen. Which doesn't matter all that much because like Sean I'm starting a diet tomorrow. Out of peanut butter anyway and nearing the bottom of the coffee. Beer's gone...last 3 sips of scotch.
Must...find...outside world
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
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Survival: "So do women not have an opinion about rap bolting?"
Dude, that's the stupidest fu#*ing thing you've said on this whole thread. (Sorry, couldn't resist. Someone unloaded that line onto me yesterday and now I get to pass it on.)
Seriously, women are waay too smart to wade into a pissing match among guys. I mean, eewww!-- almost stepped in it.
They've got their own problems. Like maneuvering a date with the winner.
Haven't you ever noticed how chicks compete? It's amazing. Way more sophisticated. They can carry on a full-on "I'm hotter than you" campaign, just slice each other off at the knees, "like, did you see what that bitch was wear-ing? Taste-lesss!" -- and keep a polite smile on their faces the whole time.
FWIW -- and it's worth, actually, the whole game -- Jennie is hot. I mean she's tapped into the main nerve here, kind of the operating subtext for this whole, uh, civilization.
Jennie's "fear of the burnout of social cohesion and even collapse of social structure" just highlights that women are the carriers of culture. They maintain the delicate fabric of our lives together. The tribe. No wonder they're concerned that the guys'll get out of control -- I mean even more out of control than usual -- just drunk and careening around and on the edge of violence, and rip the sh*T out of the social fabric. Just rend it.
They got a tough, tough job. They know they gotta keep it together, the tenuous structure, and at the same time fight for themselves, get the best "sperm donor and a paycheck" so they can have the most badass kids.
It's a system. Barely works, gets broken easily, spare parts hard to come by. Cooperation is a tough act to keep together in the midst of rampant competition. (Of course climbing is competitive. But it's also way cooperative -- trusting rope partners is like hunting tigers together. Altogether an uneasy blend.) And it's a thankless job keeping it together while the dudes, the stinky dudes just reeking of testosterone, are out in the back crushing beer cans and fighting the bolt wars.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
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Gawd, now I'm laughing all over again!
I'd have to say you stepped in it at least as bad as I did...AGAIN!!!
It was just funny, her whole post was about slicing the guys off at the knees, not climbing.
I think I'll go "mark" something......
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Surival wrote: I think I'll go "mark" something......
My wife could less about this crap...she has given life to three children....everything else comes in a distance second place.
I stand quite rigid when told by a man what I should and shouldn't do...coming from wife...I just listen...99 per-cent of the time she is right.
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WBraun
climber
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Hey?
Did the sun finally come out here?
That was a great post Jennie who just popped out of the bottle again.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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damn Russ, insight. Way back upthread, your first post summed it up pretty well too.
Obama / Fish !
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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No one's asked my opinion but in the spirit of this thread I'll offer it anyway ... I think it's OK that Sean and Doug established the route in this fashion, for the carefully thought-out and explained reasons they gave. From the early descriptions, sounds like it could become a high-end classic in time.
Being not of an all-or-nothing outlook (so much of life exists in that infinite space between zero and one), I don't agree that their ascent necessarily creates ethical permission or opens the door for endless rap-bolting of other walls all over the Valley (or HDSF). But maybe this particular route is worthwhile? We'll hear soon from other parties, is my guess.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I'll bring booze and a topo
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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If Jennie shows up, she and I will be standing in
the trees watching the slaughter. . .
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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a couple of million years of evolution and we're arguing over a route...
and justifying in terms of the social construction of great apes.
Russ' summary gets to the point.
We are the crown of creation? I'll bet the microbes on the SFHD out weigh us.
Oh the humility (if only)!
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Gene
climber
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At this point in the saga, I think it is time to thank whoever put the 20 post per page system into the forum. Can you imagine downloading the entire thread to see the latest posts?
Thank god for Last >>!!!
Carry on...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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|
Great post Jennie.
For some of us, climbing is what makes us special beyond the mundane mediocrity of the rest of the world. Because of that, our climbing validates our existence and our ideas about climbing become identified with our whole self image.
When somebody goes against our ideas of climbing, it threatens the stability of our system of self-worth. If somebody can go rap bolt a line on SFHD, it takes away the specialness and eliteness of "my" route on SFHD.
We all get old, and then older. We better find a higher level of validation within because many of us know many of the old icons and validating our existence with an identity of "Climber" isn't a sustainable world view.
As for safety. It's funny that many have made the point that a route doesn't "Have" to be safe, (although they seem to imply that a SFHD route "Has" to be dangerous) and some of the same people have made the point that people don't get hurt on the death routes, they get hurt on the regular routes (the ones folks actually climb)
So it shouldn't surprise anyone if more adventures, and even more injuries, happen on GU than on the rest of the routes over there combined. If nobody goes up, nobody gets pumped, nobody falls.
So perhaps it's a matter of balance, a judgement call made by the first ascender considering the opinions of the community but, like Harding, not dictated by them. If somebody goes WAY WAY out of line, the community takes action. If something is borderline and done by the climbers with the credentials to push it, then we have these discussions.
But since we're feeling the heat on both sides, be sure and look within and feel "why" (without resorting to rationalization) any particular side of this debate should feel personally threatening or enraging. It's natural to have the reaction but enlightening to trace it back and understand what climbing means to us, both positively and negatively
Peace
Karl
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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you know what?
I think climbing must be a frickin' disease!
and, it seems like I'm catching it, again!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Hartouni hears a Who?
Yeah they're laughing, the whole tribal weight of those microbes chortling out loud as they collectively amass their Gazillionth send. Only those new bolts kinda get in the way.
All except the Amoebas, who're kinda punks actually, but so big you gotta show em some respect or get...let's not go there.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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My prediction.
GU sees a second ascent before this thread gets to 10,000 posts.
Hope the TR has pictures.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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gotta admit tho...
ain't everyday ya get up and read about someone going
top-down on half-dome:
still, I just can't see how it diminishes the formation,
sets any kind of a "bad" precedent in terms of resource use
or detracts from the stellar achievements represented
by the other routes on the face, myself.
and yes, I will shut up now.
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bwancy1
Trad climber
|
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Jenny said "taint"...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
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Hey, can I borrow that for the name of my new toprope problem on SFHD? The Gazillionth Send Of The Microbes And Amoebas!!
I'd say it's no less a route just because there's no hardware left to mark my path. The new new new future!!!
Raydog, no you won't.
Karl, oh yeah? Well...just...shut up dood!
bwancy1, now THAT is a bitchin' handle. You're right, I had to double check, but she did say "taint"!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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|
I never was a top class climber. When guys in my age group - like Kevin Worrall, Ron Kauk, John Bachar, Mike Graham, Ed Barry, just to name a few - were out there breaking new ground, such as hard 11s with mentors like Bridwell, I was struggling up hard 10s.
While I climbed with a couple of the ‘Stone Masters’group, I was never one, but use to talk with some of them a lot, usually over a bowl load or joint around a campfire in C4. I sure was surprised to hear about the bust ups in C4 parking lot (and elsewhere) in the early 1980s over “ethics”.
Back to 1975.
So Charlie Porter asks me to second him on Henley Quits on the C4 wall.
He’s up by the crux and starts banging in a bong. This is when clean climbing really had taken off and a bong (pins for that matter, on such a climb) wasn’t necessary, but Charlie always did things his way. (I was wondering why he was racking up with a hammer and pins.)
So heading up to do Cristina (Edit: or maybe something else, I can't totally recall now that I thing about it) were Lew Dawson and Rich Jack, two Colorado climbers that I had climbed with several times.
As they passed by me, I could see that their expression was, “WTF, what’s he doing banging in a bong?”
I sheepishly said hi and sort of look away, somewhat embarrassed.
The moral? At the time it was, shall we say, de rigeur, not to do such climbs with pins. But Charlie was of a different school than what was fashionable. I didn’t agree with him using the bong (he had use chalks - EDIT: duh, chocks - for other pro), but that was his decision.
Sean and Doug made their decision. Who are any of us to be taking such a high on the horse attitude? Perhaps the GU critics may someday use techniques that will find critical discussion.
Some may say that a one-pitch established climb is not the same as a new route up SFHD, and therefore my little tale isn't relevant. But what is ethical and what are ethics? Does it matter the length of a route? The manner climbed, whether the first time of the umpteenth time? Etc, etc, etc.
I don’t know, I sort of feel guilty for adding to this thread (the number of posts that is). Obviously there are enough people with strong enough feelings about GU to make this thread as long as it is, but perhaps it is best to let things rest at the moment, and move on a bit.
This discussion can always be resurrected once a second ascent (or more) of the route is done.
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Festus
Social climber
Enron by the Sea
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Mr. Walling writes:
"Cracko and Jacko really seem to have a handle on this thing.... Festus?"
and
"...even 5.4 leaders from the Gunks are lipping up along with the hardest of the hard from every era. No end in sight."
Dammit, Russ, I'm already in this thing twice (now three times)back in the 900s, and pretty much without a clue because I'd be hard-pressed to lead 5.4 in the Gunks even if I knew where the f#ck the Gunks are. Still, I would absolutely bury my brothers on an approach hike to Incredible Hulk...it's only the actual rock climbing that costs me a couple of spots in the family rankings.
Mariners over D-Backs in seven. You read it here first!
Cubs? Well, deep down inside you already know.
And I only know two things related to the actual thread subject: "Naked talus runner" is f#cking funny, and "A Night on the Ground, a Day in the Open" is a good book.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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The "talus runner" affected my life. Read the article in the GPIW catalog and then started to run on trails into mountains. Thus started a new passion and a series of trail runs and races in the mountains that changed my life.
In my mind-eye I can still see that photo of Doug hopping/runner over talus inspiring me to do something different.
Thanks, Doug!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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That talus was probably pre-inspected Bob.
Ed wrote:
"We are the crown of creation? I'll bet the microbes on the SFHD out weigh us. "
I don't know about the microbes but those tiny red bugs on the granite, I can tell you that they are totally against this route!
;-)
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
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I think the talk of those little red bugs belongs on the Lycra appreciation thread, those milli-dudes are the shizzle...
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Yeah, don't you think for one moment that I would just run it out on talus. Onsight?...gimme a break.
Oops, I said "break"
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
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the sad thing about this thread is that it appears to be a justification for all out rapp bolting of big walls in yos.
and because of the cliqueish attitude of some yosemite climbers it looks like it is being accepted. this place reminds me sometimes of being in Jr High again where the "in" crowd gets away with sh&& that others dont.
carrion.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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That's life. always has been, allways will be.......
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
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I wonder how the scenario would have played out if the characters involved were different, like Joe and Jane Anonymous ?
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jstan
climber
|
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The best thing would be for everyone to go watch Eric’s link right about now.
http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/243
After going through 200 posts a couple of comments.
Before considering what our personal opinions may be it is probably well to try and identify what things are actually facts.
1. Legal title to Half Dome rests with the US government and responsibility for
managing it rests with that government. Every citizen therefore possesses a co-
equal interest in that property.
2. Modification of public property by special interests for their own benefit, while
it surely occurs, is subject to management by responsible authority.
3. Rock climbers form just one of the many identifiable groups wishing to enjoy
that property.
4. The group of rock climbers is not numerically superior so the impact that group
may be able to have upon whatever course of action the government determines
is necessary, in all probability - will be limited.
5. In the real world, situations arise wherein individuals and groups have , when
they please, been able to do as they please with public property. That said, it is
also true that as population density rises and competition for shared resources
rises, continued exercise of this position will lead increasingly to public
disorder. We have object data here as regards this.
Now I will state again an opinion I have advanced over the past forty years.
Climbers themselves have a variety of uses they wish to make of property they in fact do not own. If we wish to have maximum impact upon the policies applied to us, it is incumbent upon us to reach our own consensus as to what uses are proposed. Given that we will be able to present cogent proposals to the responsible authorities.
Finally, an opinion I have reached only recently. In the event we are unable or are unwilling to work toward this, I feel the activity has become destructive of the general welfare and needs to be subject to increased regulation. It has taken thirty years, but this is where I now find myself.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jstan wrote:
"Finally, an opinion I have reached only recently. In the event we are unable or are unwilling to work toward this, I feel the activity has become destructive of the general welfare and needs to be subject to increased regulation. It has taken thirty years, but this is where I now find myself. "
Seems sort of dangerous to leave that as a general statement. Would you elaborate where and what activity is destructive and perhaps why? What sorts of regulation would you expect and how would that impact the rest of climbing. We've seen fixed anchor bans and how they affect routes.
Peace
Karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
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Hawkeye,
I'd say this route is far from being actually "accepted" as evidenced by the robust debate here. It's just that there is damn little anyone can do about it except chop it, which I don't see as the answer. What I hope is that we can leave it alone for what it is, and discourage repeat performances on other routes as vigorously as possible.
Earlier I asked Doug and Sean specifically about what they saw as unacceptable for other routes up there. No one actually answered, except I think Doug called it baiting. Maybe I'll just try a new question. To all who are in defense of this route: Would you "like" to see 6 or 8 more rap bolted routes back there? Would that be a good thing?
jstan, please tell me that we are not going to see a governing body with another stack of do's and not do's. Gawd, don't we have enough places in this life where we have to follow "the law"? Climbing is one of the few places where I feel pretty free. If the man tells me what the appropriate distance for pro is in such and such type of rock, and how many bolts can be placed in what manner, I'll quit.
The community has done at least a half fast job of self control all these decades. Can't we make it a few more?
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
|
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Hey, you gotta admit, the vibes on this thread are turning much more positive, maybe even "harmonious" !! And.....STFU Festus !
Maybe if you make it to the top of Moosedog Tower with me next month you may earn a little credibility !!!
Cracko
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
|
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There are two possibilities if the government gets involved in legislating bolting.
Either one has to get goverment approval before placing a bolt, or it is banned entirely.
Both of those options have been used by various land managers. Don't think it can't or won't happen in the valley, and don't think routes like this won't push the issue. Also, don't think a chopping fest wouldn't also lead to the same result.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
|
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I've read every post. No mean feat at this point. I have a couple of questions....
Does "style" really matter? I mean, what distinguishes "climbing" from other "sports?" It would indeed be "sporting" to lay a giant ladder against the SFHD and then "climb" it, but is that "climbing?" If it is, then we're agreed, and anything goes... it's all good.
However, if that is not "climbing," then "style" DOES do something to distinguish climbing from other sports. The problem at that point is that we're faced with a grand continuum between naked free-solo ascents and something just this side of the big ladder.
On the taco people perpetually conflate style and ethics, treating their personal tastes as if those equate to rights and wrongs. THIS was the great mistake of the "Valley Christians" of Harding's era.
So, next question: why over 1000 posts on a thread that is basically devoted to people arguing about their personal tastes? Are we all that narcissistic?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
not taking one side or the other, just being a devil's advocate-
so it's ok for an aid climber to drill and chip whatever they need to, in order to ascend blank-ish granite walls, so long as it's done on lead?
meanwhile, a free climber, if unable to AID the terrain, has to CHOOSE to drill/chip superfluous holes in order to establish the route ON LEAD.
one point of view in that relationship would be this:
a free climber ought to "leave the climb to someone else who can climb it in better style, sometime in the future".
meanwhile an aid climber does whatever they do, and if it's done on lead, that itself makes it proud (regardless of whether or not "someone else ... can [aid] it in better style, sometime in the future".
so, is that or is it not a contradiction?
from a free climber's perspective, and from an aid climber's perspective, we'd all prefer to climb the terrain that does not need to be drilled at all, isn't that true?
i guess it's the same discussion for a route that won't take any gear and that is first done as a free solo / X route- so that means nobody ever gets to climb that real estate if they won't do it as a free solo? is that reasonable?
if you say it's not reasonable, then isn't it a slippery slope? (i.e. doesn't the same argument naturally extend into the acceptance of retro-bolts on runouts? and who would draw the line? such an argument is the only one i accept for leaving X routes in place, but it's tenuous IMO)
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
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re:
Would you "like" to see 6 or 8 more rap bolted routes back there? Would that be a good thing?
what about if we ask this:
would you prefer to see 6 or 8 more runout and very difficult routes back there that never ever see a 2nd ascent? (or see one ascent every 30-40 years) would that be a good thing?
good for whom?
(edit: i am conflicted and do not agree entirely with either argument, but there is a feeling i have that is hard to explain entirely, in which i am particularly offended by 'needless' or unwarranted damage or impact upon the rock itself, and i see an unrepeated route, or an unrepeatable route, or a route nobody has any interest in repeating, as a whole lot of impact upon the rock for very little benefit overall, where as impacts like drilling huge anchor bolts or installing rappel routes in certain locations can be seen as impact which is spread out across all the use they get from the many climbers who will benefit from them over time, and yet i am against any bolt placement that is not "necessary", and my favorite thing about yosemite is the fact that you can go climb so much rock without bolts at all)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
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Thank you, Jennie! I tossed out a softball (Russ-friendly analogy) about 40 posts back, and you helpfully gave it a good wallop. Climbing does sometimes suffer from a testosterone surplus, certainly this thread.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
the sad thing about this thread is that it appears to be a justification
for all out rapp bolting of big walls in yos.
This is the crux of the argument--that this route will promote this style of
climbing on this and other walls.
I just don't see it happening. The Growing Up FA team spent months
establishing their route. Not many people have that type of time or skill level
to open big wall routes. If they do, they won't spend it blindly rap-bolting
everything in sight.
How can I say this? Empirical evidence. Peace was rap-bolted.
Lemmings did not descend over The Meadows and rap-bolt every last face.
And those domes have a lot easier access than any wall a rap-bolter
might attack.
Folks with the time and skill to "open" big wall routes know what's at stake.
The Growing Up team knew what was at stake, and they made a decision after
much consideration. There is a reason for the style of Growing Up.
I don't endorse the style, but I do understand it. I don't view this as the
beginning of the end.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
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John brings up several points that need to address.
Can climbers actually control their emotions and do what is best for the community and not just their personal views and needs.
Some time I really doubt it.
The Flatirons bolting issues of the late 80's and early 90's was/is a great example. I when to two of the meeting keeping low keyed and just watching. It was f*#king hilarious...instead of addressing how to use bolts the sh#t-flinging began and that was the beginning of the end...the government officals...seeing how un-civil and vile they were to each other...close the Flatirons to all bolting.
Basically a lose-lose to all except the most extreme anti-bolters.
Beware what ask for getting the government involved...instead of addressing the issue...you might get what you didn't ask for...complete closure.
Bolts are a part of Yosemite's history and will continue to be so...they have open up climbs and walls that were considered un-climbable by other means.
Responsible use by experienced climbers may be the salvation that both sides can digest and this route my be the start of it in the Valley.
This thread is a good indication that there may be hope for us climbers to express both sides of the view without the typical name-calling and useless drivel that prevails on this matter for the previous 30-40-50 years.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
"Bolts are a part of Yosemite's history and will continue to be so...they have open up climbs and walls that were considered un-climbable by other means.
"Responsible use by experienced climbers may be the salvation that both sides can digest and this route my be the start of it in the Valley."
the irony is that you see the above statement as a good thing, while you fail to recognize that the above statement is exactly what so many people are afraid of...
who decides what "un-climbable" means?
who decides what "reasonable use" means
who decides what "experienced" means?
edit
"Basically a lose-lose to all except the most extreme anti-bolters"
again, what i think you fail to recognize, is that many many people who are NOT the "most extreme anti-bolters" would rather see no bolting than too much bolting, and in particular with the rise of climbing gyms as the new training grounds and the growing popularity of rock climbing as a "sport".
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
|
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Rick James does, bitch.
(Nothing to add.)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
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Matt wrote: who decides what "un-climbable" means?
who decides what "reasonable use" means
who decides what "experienced" means?
Matt...that would be the FA party. Was it reasonable for the FA party on Karma to use that many bolts...looking at the FA party background...one would have to say yes. Not every climber will agree.
No one get a hit every time at bat!!!!
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
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Matt...that would be the FA party.
that you don't forsee a problem, is itself the problem.
EDIT
(responding to the post below but not wanting to add more posts by me...)
i think it elevates them, but i also worry that it makes it more likely that someday, someone will see a justification to retro-bolt those lines on rappel, so that more climbers can enjoy the real estate.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
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[sluffing work here...]
A question to ponder:
Does Growing Up denigrate or elevate Southern Belle and Karma?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
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Matt wrote: Matt...that would be the FA party.
that you don't forsee a problem, is itself the problem.
No Matt...people like you who ask nothing but questions and only criticize and offer no solutions are problem.
Did you read this from my above post...Responsible use by experienced climbers may be the salvation that both sides can digest and this route my be the start of it in the Valley.
It the best I can think of...the ball is in your court.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
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"No Matt...people like you who ask nothing but questions and only criticize and offer no solutions are problem."
really?
i challenge you to scour this whole thread and post all the links to every comment YOU have made that suggests any limit whatsoever to the complete grid bolting of all climbable terrain.
yours is not the only 'reasonable opinion'.
regarding the ball and my court, the ball has rolled away, down your all too slipery slope.
i am going back to work over here, it's your court.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
To the question of what's now acceptable:
Several of you have been asking that for awhile. The first round, my answer was: There's our route. It speaks. This time around, I'll amplify on that answer and give you an interpretation of what Growing Up says:
It says put a lot of work and a lot of thought into your FA. Listen to the stone with respect.
It says start out on the ground and probe the wall.
It says begin by traditional means. The oldest techniques are the least controversial; start there. Bouldering barefoot doesn't get you far, though.
Our first probe of the wall got us 60 feet and was shut down. Since we could reach that 60 feet from another line, we found that out on top rope so didn't have to set any pro.
Then Sean went up Southern Belle a ways to look around, feel the stone.
The second major probe was more successful, trying to free the original South Face aid line. It got I think 5 pitches before confronting rock that was too difficult and somewhat grainy. Good photos of Sarah Watson leading pitch #3 are in the article. Again all trad. Again a failure.
Ponder some more.
For round three, Sean chose the unclimbed crack line that became Growing Up. Again he started up all free, all trad.
Are you hearing this? Months have now passed. Months of total respect and traditional means.
The climbing has now gotten pretty damn hard and continuous and is still trad, still ground up.
A dike appears, offering 5.11 free climbing left, out from under the arch. Bolts get placed, still on lead.
The dike ends. The rock is steep and blank. Above it is a thousand feet of subtle and ambiguous headwall.
Sean retreats and we spend weeks thinking and talking about what to do. Actually, that discussion was already well underway, because the higher Sean got up the arch, the more we could see of what it would be like beyond. But we pondered and talked for weeks more.
Finally, we made the decision to go beyond trad and come down from the top. We've explained a lot about that decision already, so I won't repeat it.
Once we confirmed a line, we also confirmed that the difficulty and danger of climbing it on lead would be approximately equivalent to the very runout routes already on the wall. We agreed that such runouts were not what we wanted to climb and not what we wanted to leave behind as a route for others.
Only then did we finally start drilling.
This much respect for the rock and care for our safety and that of the climbers to follow is what I see our route saying.
This much exhausting of traditional means before reluctantly stepping beyond them is what I see our route saying.
I will be out of internet range for the next day now, so unable to answer questions or make replies. Sorry.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Matt wrote: yours is not the only 'reasonable opinion'.
Never said it was...just stated my opinions based on 38 years of climbing and FA's
Matt wrote: i am going back to work over here, it's your court.
Good thinking!!
:)
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
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doug,
sounds a whole lot easier to just frickin start on top and see if it goes from there
Oh thats right! thats the issue!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
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Fatty, you are so missing your queue.
I can't wait any longer.
It's a religious war!
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chossyslab
climber
|
|
I hate to say this Doug, especially to you, but i have a sneaky suspicion that you guys rap bolted because you guys werent prepared to climb the scary and potentially deadly runouts that would have been necessary to finish GU ground up. Then i think you, whether conciously or not, convinced yourself that you were rap bolting for others (so they could be safe) and use that as a reason why this is all ok. Just what my gut is telling me but who knows, its been wrong in the past.
whats done is done and i dont think GU should get chopped but i do think it was put up in poor style (and the reason i post is because i think you guys should know some people think this way) and i hope others dont see it as an excuse to repeat your methods anywhere else in the valley.
i need to stop. this thread is taking over my brain. i should be studying for a midterm right now.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
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yeah, what he says, repeat the route, but not the style.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
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Choss wrote: I hate to say this Doug, especially to you, but i have a sneaky suspicion that you guys rap bolted because you guys werent prepared to climb the scary and potentially deadly runouts that would have been necessary to finish GU ground up.
Why would they have been scary or dangerous...ground up??
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
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chossyslab may have been ass-u-me-ing that it would be a chossy slab...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Choss wrote
"I hate to say this Doug, especially to you, but i have a sneaky suspicion that you guys rap bolted because you guys werent prepared to climb the scary and potentially deadly runouts that would have been necessary to finish GU ground up. "
Another reason not to say it to Doug is because his role in the climb was more supportive than leading. I don't think he led any of the 5.12 lower pitches nor would have been slated to lead the upper pitches. That would have gone to Sean or one of his other henchmen.
Which just goes to show how stand-up a guy Doug is. He was part of the discussion, logistics, elbow grease and such for this climb, but Sean is right, it's basically Sean's climb in the sense that the Nose was Harding's climb, even though Merry, Dolt and others were part of the team.
FWIW
Peace
Karl
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jstan
climber
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Karl asked me what I meant by regulation. You all have dealt with bureaucracies. When a bureaucracy is tweaked you know for a fact you can never predict their response. That is a given. I spent years fighting the need for regulation doing it by the most direct and effective method of which I could think. Get people focussed on solving the problem. Managers love communities that are a source of support and who are able to solve problems. Let me pose a scenario. Suppose climbers are actively helping a land manager solve a problem for which they don't have adequate resources. Now suppose there are also some climbers who are doing things that are a problem. I don't say this is happening. Just join me for a moment in a supposition. In this imaginary scenario do you think it possible the climbers out there on the front lines are buying time for everyone? Years ago when I was on the front line we had time. Each new pair of hands, each new shoulder applied to the load was a new friend. My point? Whatever happens, WE, that's ALL of us, need to make this work now. And I worry we may have wasted far too much time.
For thirty years we have listened to a melange of reasons, history, style, freedom, me,me,ME, hidden agendas, elitism, better, self interest, natural, harder, 5.12, you name it. Go back up in this thread and re-live it all. The only argument I have enjoyed was the rejoinder that we now outnumber you old farts and your whole world is gone, gone, gone. I hate to tell you but there is a much bigger turd than that in the punchbowl. I remember when you could routinely go climbing, trundle, cut trees, defecate anywhere, even bolt, and know the next glaciers would probably wipe it all out before another person sees it. With the large increase in the number of people the guts have been literally ripped out of the life the "Young farts" think they are about to live. We can no longer do whatever we want, wherever we want, whenever we want. Warren Harding could think that on the Nose. You can't. If you think you can, take a look next to you on the ledge where you are sitting.
I focus momentarily on the old/young dichotomy simply because it is the most transparently absurd. The other arguments are also constructed solely so we don't have to face the problem.
We can no longer do whatever we want, wherever we want, whenever we want.
The new argument that comes up is to the effect, that this is very hard to do, there have been failures, so we don't need to try. OK. So I am looking at what is potentially a 5.16 pitch. The first. Am I to suppose that climbers, feeling as they do, will routinely run away saying, It is too hard! I might fail! It can't be done! Apparently so.
You are all intelligent, courageous and energetic people. Go out and get to work.
Edit:
Survival:
It is hard isn't it? That should draw us to it.
I will try and tell a short story illuminating your last thought. Willie asked me if I wanted to do a 5.8. I had never rested on anything so you may imagine it was quite a surprise when it turned out to be a 5.8 A2?. Willie used an old five pound sledge that he carried in the back pocket of his Sears Roebuck work pants. The bottom of the pocket was gone of course so the cord to the hammer went into the pocket, then out of the bottom and down to the hammer swinging in the breeze below. While hanging from the lip of a big ceiling and trying to get one hit to place a piton he had to pull up the hammer with his teeth and his one free hand till it hung up on his pants. Then he had to wiggle the sledge to get it though the torn pants. What did he do with the hammer after bottoming the pin with one gentle bop? He fed it back through the hole in his pants. So it was, in just my second month of climbing I learned each climber makes up their own climbing and their own difficulty. Without a doubt Willie had several sets of pants with torn back pockets so he would always be able to have the pants he needed for his kind of climbing.
Climb ratings mean absolutely nothing. I learned that right up front.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jstan, that's a hard one to respond to. I'll read it a couple more times.
My first thought was: Yeah n00bs, get busy.
My second thought was: Herding cats on acid.
My third thought was: 5.16 pitch? Uh..would that be ground up trad or......
My fourth thought was: Some of us aren't as intelligent or energetic as you give us credit for.
Edit: jstan, you need to write a book. I'll buy it for sure.
I would love to hear some more of your stories.
Festus, get your a** over to that poetry month thread!!
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Festus
Social climber
Enron by the Sea
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Criminy, Cracko, what are you doing on this thread, anyway? Your expanding Applebee's appetizer ass can hardly lead the south face of Quartz Hill these days, let alone pull the steel ladder bolted to the water tank on the summit.
My advice? Mix in a salad or two. Maybe they could help you out over in the LEB mushroom thread.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Damit Festus.....stay on topic !!!
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Just for the record, the following quote from John's post is not from an article by Pat Ament as he indicates, but by me, Tom Higgins. It is from a 1969 AAJ article. Here is a link to my website for the complete article:
http://www.tomhiggins.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=20&limit=1&limitstart=0
"On our last day in Tuolumne, Bob Kamps and I attempted what looked like the “all time” route in the Meadows--the very center of Fairview’s west face. Starting below a conspicuous roof and a series of small arches, we hoped to climb a steep crack system to the summit bowl. After four full pitches of fantastic climbing on flakes and knobs, we encountered an utterly blank 85” headwall. Utterly blank? As unlikely as this seems for Tuolumne, the wall would simply not go free. We had already used four bolts to protect 5.9 and 5.10 climbing immediately below, would four or five aid bolts now be appropriate? We pondered the situation and finally decided to go down. Here was a route more resistant than any we had previously encountered. Once on the ground, we discussed the free climbing tradition being established in Tuolumne and speculated that perhaps someday the headwall would go free. Then, to the car. Bob wondered if he had lost his camera, whether he would then be camera-shy. I ignored him and suggested we call our half-a-route The Abortion. He suggested we go home."
Indeed, I and patners turned back on many first ascent attempts, sometimes to leave a few bolts to nowhere never to be completed. Other times better or more determined climbers came along and got what we didn't complete (two examples at Pinnacles come to mind). We didn't mind. Failure was integral to the game, the price which made the successes all the more rich.
Another consideration here is the one Bachar makes - while climbs seem like personal and private events, they have more than ideological consequences for climbers holding to different style preferences, especially to young climbers on the rise investing the time and energy to try to better today's standards. For them, a big potential FA prize is now gone. Ye old "Tricksters and Traditionalists" makes this argument, as does a follow on piece, both at my site. It's why gun hunters let bow and arrow hunters go first in certain areas as the season begins, and why climbers in various areas have agreed informally to restrict rap bolting to certain cliffs, leaving other area open to those sticking to traditional styles. Of course, in some areas, such as Pinnacles National Monument, climbers have agreed to ground up only from now on, partly to stop the wrangling about styles and partly under the threat of regulation.
Another point of both style articles at my site is the importance of climbers coming to agreements on style differences. Climbers deserve better than the fuming of style clashes, as in this thread. The resulting tension makes for a constant nasty undercurrent eating away at the camaraderie of the sport. As well, the mix of styles muddies the interpretation of climbing history and achievements, as well as clear credit and attribution around first ascents. One way out, as the referenced style articles suggest, is attention to voluntary, area by area climbing organizations agreeing on bolting and more general climbing styles.
So, for those interested in more on these issues (hardly new, but never ending it seems) and suggestions for improvements, here you go:
http://www.tomhiggins.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=19
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Jacko
Trad climber
Grass Valley Ca.
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Festus, you are the tie breaker.I,m afraid your going to have to voice an opinion on this Topic.Cracko has gone down a path that we can't be proud of..Is he drinking again?? So what's it gonna be Festus??? Russ, don't listen to Festus, the Cubby's have a shot and so do My Giant's????? Jacko
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Tom, thanks for posting. I will read those articles. It's so fascinating to be part of this conversation.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:04am PT
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You of all people I hate to go head to head with. But you just said:
"A simple factor that comes into play on such routes is the time it takes - to approach, ferry loads, find the route, drill, clean in some cases. The logistics involved in these types of endeavors make compromises in style tempting, if not essential, in order to establish the entire climb. The style issues involved need to be looked at in a new light in my opinion"
So it is about convenience after all.
Why not just leave it alone?
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Nate Furman
climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:05am PT
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Doug,
Thank you for putting so much time and effort to co-create a route that lives up to a grand vision. If more climbers approached new routing with such intentionality and consideration (and coupled with a general respect for the environment) I think the resource would be better shape than it is now.
Cheers,
Nate
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:31am PT
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Ksolem wrote: So it is about convenience after all.
Why not just leave it alone?
Funny how two people can read the same thing (Kevin post) and come to two different conclusions.
I didn't see it as convenience at all...But just a different way of looking at big walls like Growing Up!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:36am PT
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What? The hike is too big? Ferrying loads is a pain in the arse? No one has enough time anymore to actually get it done?
So we should re-examine our ethics???
Unless I am stupid that is what he just said.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 10, 2008 - 04:45am PT
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Well, been away and was quickly scanning from the end to see where things are at when I noticed the original 1202 disappeared pretty quick when the poster realized Ksolem's interpretation was on target. Bob's pelthora of interpretations aside, how else can one interpret these two phrases?:
"...make compromises in style tempting, if not essential, in order to establish the entire climb."
"The style issues involved need to be looked at in a new light..."
The first is clearly saying that logistical inconveniences and hurdles can and should impact 'style'. The second says we should simply take the first statement at face value and so redefine climbing [style (and ethics)] in light of it.
I'd also like to say that the use of the terms 'style' and 'ethics' has been an interesting progression over the course of the thread with the onerous 'ethics' essentially shadowed in favor of the less divisive and intimidating 'style'. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that many folks here might even stretch the point to say there are not, and have never been, 'ethics' involved in climbing (and by extension, if there were, they were far too tattered and soiled for any further utility). All in all, to me it brings to mind John Cusack's character in the film 'Grosse Point Blank' who admits to 'a certain "moral flexibility"' - but of course here, we'd probably have to rewrite it to 'a certain "flexibility of style"' in the cause of unity and political correctness.
I can certainly empathize with the Growing Up team encountering an end to free climbing. But, at the point free climbing ended on encountering the impasse of a blank head wall ending the [natural] line, was the decision to construct a 'route' to the top by other means purely and solely a matter of style? It's a legitimate question from my perspective. It is definitely a route now - but clearly not a 'natural' free line by any definition if it required a bolt ladder to connect the lower natural line with one derived of extensive top-down reconnaissance and construction.
I have no doubt whatsoever the route is a 'state of the art' construction and possessing high quality climbing. My concerns, other than the obvious 'means vs. ends' quandry, are entirely around the 'precedent' it sets both in the Valley and far beyond as a 'style' signal or aleart. Many here see this [hybrid] line as a possible compromise of 'styles' (and dare I say, 'ethics') while others of us see it as a less than ideal precedent regardless of the quality of the result. And when these issues are overlaid with ongoing subthreads of the potential for the imposition of bolting and climbing regulations around the country, as John suggested, they do take on a broader context of some import.
Look forward to catching up on what I've missed and wanted to say I'm also quite thankful we've been able to discuss all these issues and free-ranging ideas in a relatively forthright and cordial manner even if we appear to be making only limited movement towards anything looking like a consensus.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 10, 2008 - 10:13am PT
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Ksolem wrote: What? The hike is too big? Ferrying loads is a pain in the arse? No one has enough time anymore to actually get it done?
So we should re-examine our ethics???
Unless I am stupid that is what he just said.
The style has been re-examine in RMNP and others areas (look at the link I posted upthread) and the results are not as grim as you and others hope them to be.
No massive bolting projects in the Park, no wave of sport climbers descending on the walls with just quickdraws and bolt on holds and no waiting lines...just a couple of beautiful routes in a amazing alpine setting that a lot of people can enjoy if they are willing to make the 6-7 mile hike in.
By what I read from Doug and Sean...Sean route was neither easy, conveient and very, very time consuming.
I am trying to give you na-sayers a little proof that sometimes the means do justify the ends and the end is not as bad as you think it is going to be. Here is another route in the Park...considered a classic and was done in a "different style".
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/colorado/alpine_rock/rmnp__rock/105764076
Ksolem...I think Kevin is saying re-examine the style. That always been a part of climbing and will continue to be so.
Ksolem...let me get this right...you would have no problem with the route and the bolt count as long as they started on the ground and when up.
This has been/is a great debate and conversation....thanks to all who have been honest and open. These issues really do need to be discuss in a civil way.
Joe...How many big walls have you done??
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Apr 10, 2008 - 10:58am PT
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Don't forget fixing 800 feet on the Salathe FA. Just read about it in Camp 4...
One thing I'd like to say about my role in Growing Up, is the way I view Southern Belle and Karma. It seems that being involved in this project has put me into some sort of sport climbing rap-bolters camp, but I ve got to say while I toiled up there, looking at both routes and their features from the ground, that I don't resent how few bolts or how far the runs were on the routes. I, for one, don't think bolts "should" be added to SB. The route is a statement, a culmination of mental, psychological, and physical skill and stamina, a culmination that doesn't occur overnight in the development of a climber. And anyone who is willing to put that kind of commitment out there, knows where to find it. I think it is great, awesome and amazing. If the FA party or approved surrogates, put in a few more bolts on Karma, say, I would go climb it. One camp here might say, "Well, that's why they DIDN'T put more bolts in. Keeps the FLUFF off." And I read you, good buddy, loud and clear.
Which brings me to one observation about this thread. We all climb for different reasons. I'm 27 years old. I have read every thread and stitch of climbing lit. I could get my hands on since I was about 19. From Gaston to Perrin. I've studied Yosemite climbing history like I was getting a degree in it. Like many people here have. I've only just this year been to a gym, as I moved to Berkeley, and in six months, I've been three times. I don't need climbing to be safe. I'm not trying to change climbing to fit my values. I'm not trying to impose my vision of what climbing "should" be upon others. I've seen enough of that in the climbing world. I climb to have fun.
When we were up there, our decision, or at least what I contributed to the discussions at the campfire, wasn't really related to the surrounding routes. We climbed a feature. It stopped. We could see amazing terrain. Orange-slick, non edged patina, no stemming for stances, no hook edges, nada. We decided to climb it and bolt it how we would like to find it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:25am PT
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Healyj wrote
"My concerns, other than the obvious 'means vs. ends' quandry, are entirely around the 'precedent' it sets both in the Valley and far beyond as a 'style' signal or aleart. "
I wonder to what extent it's a precedent? We already talked about the rap-bolted sport routes and El Cap free variations, these is also "precedent" over in the ground-up run-out world of Glacier Point Apron.
Most know the story of Hall of Mirrors and the fact that they felt they had to drill a aid bolt ladder to get pro on a hard pitch. Caused a big stink at the time.
By far, the most commonly climbed line up the Apron to the rim is Galactic Hitchhiker (11b, 39 pitches in the Topo, 26 or so if you run pitches together) This route was equipped ground up and then top down. In fact, the FA party told me they intended to add some bolts on "the olympic wall" in the middle of the climb but didn't get around to it. It fell between the cracks of equipping the top and bottom.
That was quite a few years back. Didn't seem to start a stampede.
Some folks have praised Sean and crew for being open and honest about their style but those concerned with precedent might prefer to advocate "Don't ask, don't tell"
I have to believe that, for reasonable reasons, if Kurt and Cos didn't get busted on the Muir and managed to free it, they wouldn't have published their power drill anchor replacement tactics publicly. I doubt they were the first party to use power drills to that effect.
Perhaps it's just a legal issue, and perhaps there are folks who feel their experience and judgement allows them to make calls that they wouldn't trust lesser climbers to make. (Like Mommy and Daddy get to smoke a bong and have a few beers but Junior isn't supposed to)
This, of course, has it's own issues, but I thought I'd bring it up because "Lack of Precedent" in the valley often really mean "Lack of common knowledge" There's something to be said for it, but it's a huge grey area.
Peace
Karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:46am PT
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The original 1202 post said:
"Ksolem, I hate to be the messenger, but...that's not what he said."
Warbler did not say "No one has enough time anymore to actually get it done."
I took it down because, for one, I was essentially calling somebody an idiot ["stupid"], which I try to avoid on the I-net. I also didn't want to get into a war of words. Lastly, I thought I'd let Warbler explain for himself what he meant.
Warbler recently put up a fantastic sounding route, taking several weeks (months?) up in Tenaya Canyon. I don't think he's afraid of carrying loads, hiking, or spending time putting up routes.
Also, the Growing Up team took months to establish their route. They hiked. They ferried loads. They spent time.
Let's face it. Some folks, no matter what, will not accept the style of GU. They will pick every tiny crevice, hoping to find the magic key that will make the GU team cry Uncle. They are just dying to hear them say "OK, you are all right, we f'ed up. We'll remove all the bolts." Nothing shy of that will satisfy.
There is no thought process. They are not part of a community of people thinking things through. There is only "My way or the highway."
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:48am PT
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Joe wrote: Bob's pelthora of interpretations aside.
Joe...unlike you I given a number of reality based examples of what has happened and what the results have been. Kevin and Karl have also given a number of reality based breaches of styles in the Valley and that what Sean did on the wall was not something that hasn't been done before in the Valley and other areas.
Kevin...I tell Jim you said hello...he comes into my restaurant quite often.
He may not be the best example to use now...has he can be happily seen clipping bolts in Boulder Canyon, Shelf Road and other sport climbing areas along the Front Range. You would find his take now on his style back then quite amusing.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:52am PT
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k-man -- "They will pick every tiny crevice, hoping to find the magic key that will make the GU team cry Uncle."
That holds true to a lot of arguments here about stuff.
Pretty pathetic, huh?
Go climbing people, the gloom and doom of the world will not be determined by you, it is set in stone by Providence.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:58am PT
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Healyje, I'm fine with much of what you say, but not this:
free climbing ended on encountering the impasse of a blank head wall ending the [natural] line
Yes, our dream of an all-free route ended there. But we continued the climb -- our route, our choice -- in a style time-honored since the FA of the Dome itself by George Anderson's bolt ladder in 1875.
"Natural line" is an interesting idea. Because right above the bolt ladder Sean found a line of natural holds that connected clear to the top of the Dome. The way we found them, and the way we chose to protect them -- that's the issue this thread raised.
Are we bad boys or visionaries?
The defense would like to introduce into evidence a 20-foot stretch of the climbing on the upper wall. Any 20-foot stretch you like; the prosecution may choose. The jury -- our peers -- is now invited to sample the climbing on said 20-foot piece of handsome stone.
Unfortunately, Half Dome is unwilling to part with any of it's 20-foot stretches of magnificent stone, and technical limitations would anyway prevent us from posting that stretch of stone here on SuperTopo as "Exhibit A." May I suggest, then, that we adjourn this court and re-convene the jury on the upper slabs of Growing Up?
Such a tease.
And since skill level is not the crux of deciding who's our "peer," who gets to vote, the chosen 20-feet might sample the last pitch, for instance, which is 5.6. I have suggested that any climber who is interested or curious might rap in and sample the climbing on the upper wall. Feel free to go beyond sampling. You may enjoy -- even revel in -- that shiny slab. A thousand feet of it if you have the 5.11d skills.
If your skills are modest, you are nonetheless also invited. Drop a top rope on that final pitch, rap in and climb the 5.6. You too get to fun hog on a piece of this wall. You too get to add your voice to deciding if this is a worthy route, if the result is worth the "taint."
A number of you have been pointing out that what constitutes a taint has shifted as climbing has grown up. I'm no expert on ethics, but people who are a lot more schooled in it have pointed out that in the current academic thinking, situational ethics has trumped absolute ethics. In my little brain I take that to mean that Thou Shalt Not Kill unless maybe Well, OK In Self Defense. I guess that means that slippery slopes surround us.
Pretty uncomfortable, sure, especially if you happen to be an absolutist or a high judgment type, as I mentioned upthread. But I didn't make this up, it just seems to be a quality of reality as I see it. Of the reality pouring out of our heads, trying to make sense of the reality surrounding our heads. So please don't shoot the messenger.
The idea of dropping a top rope (TR) on the upper pitches just for fun leads to some interesting spots. Anyone who has seconded a stronger leader on a cool pitch will know the opportunity. Someone upthread mentioned the ankle-breaker mantle on Nutcracker. I happen to like leading it, but it could be TR-ed. Nothing to keep me or anyone else from TRing the last pitch of the Nose too.
Now, it seems that folks have been dropping ropes quite a ways down various El Cap routes. Top roping moves to see if a free climb might lurk there. Now I don't know, but I'll bet it would be pretty easy to just drop in some pro while they're at it, pro that could be clipped later climbing by. I'd guess that many people lurking on this discussion could help to enlighten us on that if they choose. The audience is listening.
I didn't start it; this here slippery slope's got a lot of footprints on it, and some of them appear to be the cutting-edge free climbers of our time. I just took this a few miles up the Valley, over onto a shining wall that I wanted to play on and not to die on.
I'm not interested in any peer judgment on my person. My heart knows, just like Santa knows, when I've been bad and when I've been visionary.
As far as the climb goes, the jury is still out. I would suggest that touching the stone is a healthy way for you, our peers, to "come to grips" with this.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 10, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
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BTW, for other pansies out there. Doing some pitches of Kor-Beck and climbing pitches of Space Babble on TR while rapping that route is a lot of fun. Any 10a follower could enjoy all but the bottom pitch or two.
That's after the "Public Service" types get around to replacing the sick anchor bolts.
Peace
Karl
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 10, 2008 - 12:12pm PT
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"Are we bad boys or visionaries? "--DR
Doug, FWIW, neither.
You and Sean had an idea, exercised it, and left the climbing world with a new route on the SFHD. Simple. Now it's up to the people climbing it to decide it's FUN level.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Apr 10, 2008 - 12:14pm PT
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Bob D, I am not the doom and gloom type and I certainly do not hope for, as you put it, grim results.
Kman, my response was based precisely on the man's words, plain and simple. And fwiw I have not come close to suggesting this route be removed, either by Sean and DR or anyone else.
I have my opinions about the effort however. Those are mine and this is a place to express them. I have not said anything on this thread I would not say to you or anyone else face to face sitting around the campfire.
Lucky me, I get to go climbing for a while now and will be nowhere near a computer...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 10, 2008 - 12:14pm PT
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Doug wrote: I didn't start it; this here slippery slope's got a lot of footprints on it, and some of them appear to be the cutting-edge free climbers of our time. I just took this a few miles up the Valley, over onto a shining wall that I wanted to play on and not to die on.
This is what Joe and some others seem to not to be able to digest and if you know history why Jim Erickson comment is relevant today.
Why shouldn't re-examine styles?? What is the better route that benefits the climbing community....GU or Karma...one with reasonable protection and hard, quality climbing or one with bad protection and death potential falls??
This is not a slam against Karma as I respect their efforts and talent...the telling factor for me is the number of ascents in the 20 odd years since the first.
Ksolem wrote: I have my opinions about the effort however. Those are mine and this is a place to express them. I have not said anything on this thread I would not say to you or anyone else face to face sitting around the campfire.
And I would love the chance to sit, drink a beer and talk to you about this and other things. Maybe at the next Facelift...
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Apr 10, 2008 - 12:19pm PT
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Doug,
Is it true that when you did the first clean ascent of Half Dome’s NW Face with Galen and Dennis Henneck, that Galen insisted you bring a hammer just in case? And you told him it was in the bottom of the pack, when it wasn’t. I still have a copy of that National Geographic article that Galen wrote. As a young climber that ascent inspired me. It was something to emulate.
In the future climbers will benefit from all the hard work and the vision. They'll remember the beauty of the line and the rock when they climb GU. What will be inspiring is when two climbers hike up there and climb it in a day. That will be something for young climbers to emulate- and you guys paved the way.
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NinjaChimp
climber
someplace in-between
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Apr 10, 2008 - 12:56pm PT
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Bob d'Antonio said, "This is not a slam against Karma as I respect their efforts and talent...the telling factor for me is the number of ascents in the 20 odd years since the first. "
I agree, while I have drooled on several occasions while staring up at Karma and even hold illusions of wanting to someday climb it, I haven't learned a thing from the route, with the exception of how to be intimidated, and neither has anyone else (aside from the FA party). I would venture a guess that in 20 years a lot more people will have directly learned something from GU than from Karma. What they'll learn and is that even a good thing are up for debate. Personally, I think have the routes of two contrasting styles is a good thing. I don't think it needs to happen everywhere but here in the center of the climbing universe perhaps it is good for climbers to have the opportunity to examine routes that are polar opposites, side by side, and allow them to make their own decision on which style is better. Then they can take their new knowledge back home with them...
Just my two cents thrown into this circular argument, which is looking more and more like a turd circling the drain.
-Justin
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:17pm PT
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DR, another nice post. Sigh...some of us are just more gifted writers than others. At least I didn't sleep through ALL my skooling!
Bob, I too will look forward to meeting and not avoiding, but not going out of my way to discuss this topic either. I will be moving to NM this summer and I hope you'll drag me up something that won't make me puke sometime.
Now...where do I find those anchors on top of SFHD? I do believe I'll go up there and do a little toproping...I'll report back with my findings.....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:27pm PT
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DR said,
Are we bad boys or visionaries?
i would posit neither. just climbers who ought to be doing it first and foremost for yourselves with a secondary consideration for others to come (as far as your style is concerned).
i think visionarie is a big word when rapp bolting has been around for decades but if your hat is that big fine, whatever.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:49pm PT
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DR wrote
"Are we bad boys or visionaries? "
For better or worse. history seems to indicate that these terms are not mutually exclusive.
Visionaries try things out of the box. Jardine pioneered many techniques that he was dissed for. Some are common practice today, some are still dissed.
No visionary has perfect vision. Time will tell.
Peace
Karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 10, 2008 - 01:52pm PT
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I have not said anything on this thread I would not say to you or anyone else face to face sitting around the campfire.
Thanks Ksolem. Totally understood. You bring the wood, I'll bring the frosties...
~~~
Yes, DR manages yet another fine and thoughtful post. Proving again that he has an uncanny way of keeping his keel down in these stormy seas.
The audience is listening.
That reminds me of a sticker I once saw on Garcia's guitar. Only it said The enemy is listening.
OK, no relation...
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 10, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
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"
i think visionarie is a big word when rapp bolting has been around for decades but if your hat is that big fine, whatever."
So you agree that rap bolting a big wall is nothing new and of note?
post 1221....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 10, 2008 - 04:23pm PT
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K-man wrote:Yes, DR manages yet another fine and thoughtful post. Proving again that he has an uncanny way of keeping his keel down in these stormy seas.
Maybe that same voice (DR) who help bring in another style of climbing almost 40 years ago will again be a voice to show and understand a different way of how we climb.
Survival I would love the chance to hook-up and go climbing. Where are you moving too?
On another note...what about Bob Dylan winning a Pulitzer...amazing!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 10, 2008 - 05:14pm PT
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DR, keeping his keel down, I like that. Wish I could say the same all the time.
Bob, Albuquerque, last couple days of June, but going up to climb with some old pals from the way back machine in RMNP after 4th of July, back at the end of the month. Things will get more sane and slow down a bit after we get settled.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 10, 2008 - 06:00pm PT
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BG asked:
Is it true that when you did the first clean ascent of Half Dome’s NW Face with Galen and Dennis Henneck, that Galen insisted you bring a hammer just in case? And you told him it was in the bottom of the pack, when it wasn’t. I still have a copy of that National Geographic article that Galen wrote. As a young climber that ascent inspired me. It was something to emulate.
Yes, it's true. Hammer and pins. There's a still photo in the video Vertical Frontier about Valley history that shows Dennis and I kneeling in the dirt sorting gear. We both have slightly over-enthusiastic grins 'cuz, hmmm, we seem to be peering into a stash box checking for vital supplies. Some things never change.
Thanks for mentioning being inspired. It's amazing how many climbers over the years have said so.
I've written about different parts of that story and don't need to repeat myself, but a couple of things seem relevant.
To us clean climbing was way beyond an environmental crusade or some moralistic imperative. It was a great game. It was exciting and FUN to take on the uncertainty and even a bit of danger. We didn't know, climb after climb, year after year, that we could keep pulling it off. Especially in the Valley where cracks were harder to fit stoppers into: flared, rounded, and parallel. Ever since cams came along it's been nearly impossible to look back and appreciate how inventive and bold clean climbing was with only passive gear. A lot like modern tele skiers can't get it how we skied 45 degree gullies on skinny skis driven by floppy leather boots.
Anyway, Dennis and I had been making first clean ascents and FAs that were clean onsight for years. We worked our way up through the East Buttress of Middle to the Steck-Salathe. We knew we were ready. Galen hadn't been focusing on climbing clean, didn't care as much, and anyway was totally absorbed in photographing. So we sandbagged him by leaving out the pins and hammer.
We were inspired too by Reinhold Mesner's quote, fresh at the time, about "not carrying your courage in your rucksack." Now this part gets ironic in light of Growing Up. Because in context Messner was referring to not carrying a bolt kit in his rucksack. Everybody listened because he was the hot alpine climber of the day. But we could see that while he was right for the Alps, what he was saying made no sense for the Valley.
Lemme restate that: Messner was flat wrong for Yosemite. We had great routes going back decades that could not begin to exist without bolts. The Apron, Tuolumne, the Nose, Salathe Wall, Snake Dike...
So there was a certain, uh, dramatic tension between our local experience and the ethical gauntlet the great Reinhold was laying down.
I'm just saying that no matter how well intentioned, or in what a booming, stentorian voice they are issued, blanket ethical statements gotta be taken with a liberal shaker of salt.
I'll go back to Ron Kauk's deceptively simple words to Sean and me: "How are you going to go beyond your ego to work with the nature of the rock itself?...you gotta use common sense."
Broken record, I know, but please go up there and check it out for yourself. See what the nature of the rock itself whispers to you about Growing Up.
You might even have fun.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 10, 2008 - 06:38pm PT
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Bob,
> Why shouldn't re-examine styles?? What is the better route that benefits the climbing community....GU or Karma...one with reasonable protection and hard, quality climbing or one with bad protection and death potential falls??
This is not a level comparison, because the reason Karma is scary / dangerous (for both leader and follower) is the sharp dike, not because of the way it was bolted or how many bolts there are. A better comparison is with Southern Belle.
> This is not a slam against Karma as I respect their efforts and talent...the telling factor for me is the number of ascents in the 20 odd years since the first.
Also, I wouldn't lean too hard on number of ascents to decide on how a route "benefits the climbing community". Otherwise, you might conclude that easy, sport climbs with short approaches benefit the most. But I think what you meant is for a given potential route (to control for difficulty, quality, approach, etc.), it could be bolted in different ways which would result in different amounts of traffic. One flaw with this concept is that it would advocate bolting of cracks, because then the route would get more ascents (by people who can't afford to buy cams, say). But since you imply popularity is just one factor, I think you agree that it is not the only factor; there are other considerations.
It could be argued that some routes are enjoyed by people who do not even climb them. For example, they might enjoy the story of the first ascent or repeats, even if they are not good enough to do the route. This is similar to the concept of people who enjoy the idea of certain wilderness areas existing, even though they do not visit them. Sort of an enjoyment at a distance.
It does seem unfortunate that Karma has not been repeated, but once you start talking about the rope getting sliced on a fall by either leader or follower, and the topo says 5.11d runout, that is going to cut down the interest considerably. If there were bolts every 6 feet, which should reduce the rope slicing chances to about zero, it still might not get much traffic. Would it benefit the climbing community more? I'm not sure. I'm sure it would get more complaints about impact than ascents, although talk is cheap as usual.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 10, 2008 - 06:44pm PT
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hahaha... Whoa! You guys are still at it?!??! Sheesh! hahaha
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 10, 2008 - 10:39pm PT
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Ha!! Gawd, R&I cashing in on our itty bitty Sh*tty committee!!!
That is too funny. Your summary got called up to the bigs Russ, no sh*t!
But will more people read R&I, or will the conversations just get bigger here on ST? Doug, you sly devil.....you'll be selling a book soon, won't you?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 10, 2008 - 10:47pm PT
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One thing I don't understand is why the "popularity" of a route is some sort of measure of it's worthiness. If you look at the majority of the climbers entering the sport now, and those who come from climbing gyms, they want routes that are technically challenging, but also have closely spaced bolts. So, should we make all routes in this style?
My guess is that a 5.9 sport route with bolts closely spaced gets way more traffic than a bomber 5.9 hand crack of similar length. Does that make the 5.9 sport route a better climb because it is more "popular"?
It just seems like a slippery slope to try to justify the existence of routes by their popularity. Why should a FA party have to justify their route in the first place? If the FA party is honest about their motives then the route should stand as an example of that FA party's climbing style and ethics. As we have done here, we can discuss the merits of the chosen style and ethics. But, that is about it.
Bruce
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:12pm PT
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The intro to the R&I blog says: "A Rock and Ice article [see ‘The Better Half,’ No. 165. Buy the issue here or click here to read the article] has recently generated a record breaking response on SuperTopo.com. Currently the forum topic “Doug Robinson, Sean Jones, rap bolt South face of Half Dome!” has generated 1181 responses since it was posted on March 29, 2008."
Strangely, the "Who the Hell Are You" thread was on the front page as recently as yesterday. It still holds the longest single thread record, at about 1280. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=345899
The longest cumulative thread is probably the Stonemaster ones - ten in sequence, plus four spin-offs, with over 100 posts/thread.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:20pm PT
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Popularity is only one factor but you can't totally ignore it.
The routes that are popular in Yosemite and that I often see parties on every day or every week: they are almost all fine, classic lines.
Other areas might have different results
That Supertopo photo thread is being left in the dust soon.
Peace
Karl
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Ben909
Trad climber
toronto
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:28pm PT
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Cmon guys. When people are talking about popularity they are not talking about overbolted stuff for beginners to climb. It is not about how many ascents a climb is getting but rather whether it sees ascents at all. The point being made is that Karma is just sitting there not getting climbed year after year.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:45pm PT
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ben909 wrote:
"Cmon guys. When people are talking about popularity they are not talking about overbolted stuff for beginners to climb. It is not about how many ascents a climb is getting but rather whether it sees ascents at all. The point being made is that Karma is just sitting there not getting climbed year after year."
That's not the way I interpreted the comments. The way I read them is that if a route gets done a lot (is "popular") then it is a "worthy" route. If a route doesn't get done a lot (is not "popular"), or not at all, then it is not a "worthy" route.
It took people a long, long time to repeat some of George Lowe's routes in the Canadian Rockies and several of them have less than a handful of ascents. I am not going to be the one to tell George that his routes aren't "worthy".
Bruce
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:53pm PT
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IMHO, people aren't as curious about repeating Karma and Southern Belle because of the long approach/lack of beta.
I'm not saying you can't find topos, or that the FA parties won't talk about what's on the route, but having a day job and working the pitches isn't easy. If these routes were on El Cap, who's to say they wouldn't have been repeated a lot more often?
Growing Up has been hyped as much less terrifying, so people are going to check it out. Sean's suggested you can pull on gear through the hardest pitches (something it sounds like you can't do on Karma), and there isn't a ginsu knife edge for the second to worry about. Could be people french free past the first half to the bolted half only to find it's not at their level.
Furthermore, Growing Up has been created in a time where climbing is much, MUCH more 'commonplace' than when Karma was created. The bolts will be maintained. You're not going to have to place or replace bolts, because if the climbing's as accessible as described, then someone else will do it for you(this statement excludes Bob, because I bet five years from now Bob continues his generous act of replacing bolts).
We'll see how the popularity ebbs or flows when it turns out this is still a big wall and involves a lot of pitches (and a committing hike-in/hike-out).
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:58pm PT
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Certainly popularity shouldn't be the only consideration. Quality of the climbing, aesthetics of the rock, damage to rock, and yes, style of FA, should all be considerations. What I see many of the detractors saying is that style of the FA has more importance than all the other characteristics put together. I think that selfishly overemphasizes the FA team's experience.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:59pm PT
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I just invented granite suction cups.
Unobtrusive rap devices doped with a Gorilla Glu/JB Weld Hybrid adhesive.
You have 60 minutes to clean your route, then they automatically pop off like so many nipples and fall harmelssly into Kamp Kury fire pits.
I here Disney is neggotiating for Half Dome.
They plan to install an overhang thang like the Grand Canyon.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 11, 2008 - 12:51am PT
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Bruce... may or may not be a classic. What we do know about a poplar route is that many people climb it and it may be for many reasons and it safe to safe that people recommend it to their friends and the route has good protection and good moves on fairly good stone...thus it may reach classic status in the years to come.
I would be willing to bet a thousand dollars with you that in 20 years Growing UP will be considered a classic in the Valley...you want that bet.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 11, 2008 - 12:59am PT
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what is interesting is that coz posted on STForum, he didn't write a letter to R&I. I find that turn of events meaningful.
Further, while the article by DR was excellent, the extended comments on this thread have been much more profound in all ways (even the "flare-ups" are more profound) than the traditional print media modality. Not to mention that the thread hasn't "smashed" a record, yet. But then again, I didn't know this was competitive...
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 11, 2008 - 01:05am PT
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"IMHO, people aren't as curious about repeating Karma and Southern Belle because of the long approach/lack of beta"
Oh, its a lack of something, all right!
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Apr 11, 2008 - 01:16am PT
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stevep, had rappel bolting been accepted practice on big "slabs" in the park back in the 80's, the f.a. of Growing Up (among many other routes) would be 15 to 20 years in the past. Because of efforts like Southern Belle, The Shinning and Burning Down the House, GU still remained until 2008. I wonder if Sean and Ben would feel a bit robbed today had things been different yesterday. Further, rap bolting on those big routes is not an "experience" its an installation job. Eight pitches up the arch? thats an experience.
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Buggs
Trad climber
Eagle River, Alaska
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Apr 11, 2008 - 02:37am PT
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I like the "Who the hell are you" thread better...more pictures. This one has not yet a topo...
Beelzebub
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 11, 2008 - 02:42am PT
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Somewhere around post 600 (I think? Probably later, actually), there's a Karma topo.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 11, 2008 - 02:50am PT
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Bob,
"classic" is another one of those terms that is highly subjective. Just look at the star ratings of climbs. Some think a climb is 1 out of 4 stars, others think the same climb is 3 out of 4 stars. Very few routes, even in Yosemite, are considered classic by a consensus of climbers.
"consensus" is another one of those terms that is highly subjective.........
Bruce
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 11, 2008 - 02:51am PT
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I have long wanted to repeat Southern Belle, the stories made me want to go, the approach is not a deterant, but what is, is, that I know, deep in my soul, that, I'm flat out not good enough™
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Buggs
Trad climber
Eagle River, Alaska
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Apr 11, 2008 - 02:51am PT
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Sean mon Beerman,
Where is THE topo?
Admiral Bugg von IPA ness
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 11, 2008 - 02:59am PT
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TOPO!
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NinjaChimp
climber
someplace in-between
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Apr 11, 2008 - 03:06am PT
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Popularity doesn't matter much at all. What people get out of a route does, IMO matter. Popular routes tend to be the ones that are A) easy B) safe and C) fun. Obviously the most important routes tend to have a bit more depth to them.
-Justin
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 11, 2008 - 08:03am PT
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Actually the most important routs ARE the ones that are the most fun YMMV
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 11, 2008 - 08:15am PT
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Its not fair to compare mountain routs to pure rock climbs. It's not even apples and oranges. It's more like apples and pit bulls. Mountains are supposed to be big nasty horrendous beasts that inflict healthy doses of suffering and death on their suitors. Rock climbs are supposed to be fun;)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 11, 2008 - 10:17am PT
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Dirty Kenny Wrote: Further, rap bolting on those big routes is not an "experience" its an installation job. Eight pitches up the arch? thats an experience.
So how many big routes have you rap-bolted to know what kind of experience they are??
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Apr 11, 2008 - 01:24pm PT
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jstan
climber
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Apr 11, 2008 - 01:30pm PT
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This I have to follow!
For all of the intelligence we humans claim we have, we sometimes fail to use it.
Consider. Go back to 1860. If the slave owners had simply said, "OK. Next Monday
we will free all the slaves. You have got what you say you want. Now leave us alone."
They then could have gone on and held the slaves in economic slavery for the next
100 years, just as they in fact ended up doing. The Civil war was not necessary. Why
did it happen? To put it in economic terms slave owners did not recognize "The
Market" had topped as regards slavery and they stood pat. And to manage their own
perception and the perceptions of the people they wanted to go out and shoot guns
for them, they generated all manner of arguments, reasons, and emotions. Now it
takes a long time for some things to happen. Like this thirty year long argument
about climbing.
Climbers love the sense of absolute freedom. Duh, who wouldn't. The idea has been
so attractive we now mantel up on ledges to find it smells up there and all the holds,
along with many that are not holds, are decorated in white. "The Market" on
absolute freedom has topped. So it is we go on pushing arguments around on the
chess board while carefully not looking at the elephant in the room.
Personally, paying a high price for my mistakes does not bother me half so much as
does the realization as I hand over the money, that if I had just taken the time to
think, I might have seen it all coming.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Apr 11, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
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Bob, the answer to your question is absolutely zero. I would have never considered it. Yourself? Do you agree with what I said above? The number of quality big new lines in the park would be substantially less today had climbers practiced your "anything goes" mentality.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 11, 2008 - 03:34pm PT
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Kenny....No I don't agree and just about anything has been done in the Park. Chipped holds, bolts ladder, rap-placed bolts, creative use of pitons, chopped trees and so on...the Valley has seen it all!
It is way to much work and time commitment for 99-per-cent of climbers.
They much rather just climb.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 11, 2008 - 04:59pm PT
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It finally hit me, why this thread has gotten so much action.
It's not just that Growing Up is on a big wall, or that it is on Half Dome.
It's not because Growing Up is next to Southern Belle. The interest
is because Growing Up is such an outstanding line. It follows a striking
feature that splits one of the most outstanding walls in one of the world's
most outstanding climbing areas. Simply put, Growing Up is a line that
every climber wishes they had the chance to put up. We all want to
experience the FA of that line.
Other rap-bolted lines don't get the brew-ha-ha because they are not the
absolute gorgeous line that is Growing Up.
~~~
A thought experiment.
Imagine, if you will, the route Growing Up. It is exactly as it stands today,
all the belays, bolts, ladders. Everything. The only difference, for this
experiment, is that the route was established in complete ground-up
style. Never mind how the bolts got in, just visualize the route.
Take twenty seconds to explore the route in your mind before
continuing with the experiment.
...
...
...
...
OK. Now, imagine that the route exists, same location, except that it
was put in ground up using the tools that are available to us climbers
today. For this part of the experiment, pretend that no shenanigans
were employed on the FA, no bat-hooks, no retro-bolting of run outs.
The bolts exist only where stance or hook drilling allows.
Take another twenty seconds to envision this route.
...
...
...
Certainly, both routes are figments of the imagination, and that's why
this is a "thought experiment."
Of course, the difference between the two routes is that the first has
sparse, but reasonably spaced bolts, while the second is a route with long,
dangerous run outs. (Note that I can surmise this only from the descriptions
given to us of the route.)
Given this, what are your feelings on the two imagined routes? Does one
appeal to you more than the other, or are they equal because the same
style was used to create each one.
OK, take another twenty seconds to decompress. Now return to reality. [Snap!]
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Apr 11, 2008 - 05:06pm PT
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Of course you don't agree Bob-
BTW thanks for the history lesson
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 11, 2008 - 05:08pm PT
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Thanks, k-man,
My imagination just got sweaty palms.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 11, 2008 - 05:08pm PT
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The route is in/up--time for the funometer to begin registering.
The future is what this discussion needs to focus on, and how climbers can best judge themselves for the best (read: most popular) outcome without becoming bigger blips on the "Man's" radar screen.
Or not.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 11, 2008 - 05:15pm PT
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Kenny wrote: Of course you don't agree Bob-
BTW thanks for the history lesson
Sorry if I came off terse...I really don't think it would have made that big of difference.
People said the same thing about the routes I posted in RMNP...still a lot of unclimbed rock if people are willing to put the effort in.
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Apr 11, 2008 - 05:19pm PT
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pathetic.
more than one trail to the base of the climb does more ecological damage than all the bolts in the valley put together.
sounds like a great line, put up so that those than follow can also do it safely. Nice.
That ethic goes back to an older ethic than trad, which was that the leader, or the first ascensionists, were responsible for those that followed.
for those that don't get it, The Kid, in the meadows would be the opposite, a bolt at the top and the bottom, not for safety, but to mark the route, injury bait for the climber maxed at the grade of the climb.
If, and I do mean if, you are interested in the ecosystem, then be concerned about litter, or multiple trails precipitating accelerated mass wasting, soil compaction, vegetation trampling, and don't even worry about bolts, or admit your concern is not about ecology, but about ego, or your way is the right way.
Bob Kamps was so concerned about enforcing his will on others, he petitioned the Park Service to begin to reguilate climbing... what a mistake. At least, after being confronted on the subject, Bob admitted he was not concerned about the desert, he was concerned about regulating bolts.
Kind of nice to know nothing has changed.
Ed
Ed
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 11, 2008 - 05:55pm PT
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Hey Sean, long time no see. Funny it takes you getting slandered on the intardnet for doing what you love, climbing hard and putting in new routes for us to re-connect. Whatever, another proud accomplishment in a life full of them. Let the armchair pundits spew their spray, you were out there climbing that day!
Congrats on the kid, I got one too, they'll change your life huh?
In case you haven't figured it out yet, remember that pyscho m0therfvcking aryan hitchhiker freek at the overflow campground in blue diamond? Or how about the little brown? heh. You probably remember the days taking whippers on shitty bolts in shitty vegas sandstone tho.
email me at grind stone graphics A T g mail D 0 T c o m (take out all those spaces) and i'll give you my 800#, we should catch up.
Your friend,
Pasha
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Apr 11, 2008 - 06:14pm PT
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I suppose we'd have to reassemble Bob’s ashes to get his response, but knowing him pretty well over the years, I'd say his motivation in the JT campaign against motorized bolting was not enforcing his will on others, as suggested in this post quote:
"Bob Kamps was so concerned about enforcing his will on others, he petitioned the Park Service to begin to regulate climbing... "
On the point of Park Service regulation, does anyone know if officials are inquiring or rumbling about this route? More generally, have they shown any recent concern for rap bolting in the Park? The regulatory "Pandora’s box," as I dubbed it a piece on my web site, certainly has creaked open around bolting, especially when the issue gains visibility for whatever reason(s).
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 11, 2008 - 06:19pm PT
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NEWS FLASH
Scott Cosgrove, who kicked off this thread, does have a legitimate beef that has nothing to do with rap bolting. (Rather, it's in addition to how he feels about rap bolting.) It relates directly to me. I blew it completely.
Scott Cosgrove, please accept my full apology.
Scott just wrote a letter to the editor to Rock & Ice. I just now finished writing a response and offering him my apology, and I want to share it here because it's relevant and it matters.
My mistake was leaving out of the article the fact that Scott made the FFA of Southern Belle with Dave Schultz in 1988. I didn't even mention that Schultz and Walt Shipley's FA included a small but significant stretch of aid up a crack on the fourth pitch, let alone that Schultz returned with Scott two years later to make the FFA. The details of their FFA are upthread, along with a cool photo of Scott leading the overhanging off-hands splitter on pitch #3.
You can read Scott's full letter when Rock & Ice comes out, but I want to share a couple of interesting facts he mentions. I think we're talking about pitch #8 now. (Still not certain, and he doesn't identify it by number.) Not the hardest pitch, which was the 5.12d that Scott freed on pitch #4. No, but the pitch we're talking about is the business, the scariest of the X-rated pitches. It was called 5.11d by the FA and FFA parties, but Leo Houlding, who led it while making the second free ascent with Dean Potter, apparently called it 5.12a. According to Scott, Leo said it was "a life changing experience."
Scott led that pitch on the FFA. He says that Schultz didn't want to lead it again. And Scott says of it, "I came closer to being in a altered state of fear..."
My palms are sweating again.
I don't know how I could have left out of the history of the South Face such a pivotal event as the FFA. It was completely inadvertent, a mistake and a big one.
Scott calls Southern Belle "one of the most serious free climbs in the world." Boy did he get that right. I completely agree. It is still, 20 years later, the only free route that goes all the way up the heart of the South Face, its tallest central section and one of the steepest.
I still consider Southern Belle the proudest line on the South Face. Congratulation, you guys. Hats off. You bad!
And I am terribly sorry I inadvertently left you out of the article.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 11, 2008 - 07:32pm PT
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The coveted Post 1265! whoo-hoo!!
Here's some pics from way back when of the Harding route, that Doug references my quote about the South Face being quite freeable:
I suppose I should weigh in, having some experience and record on the SF (FA of Autobahn, flashing the crux 5.11+/5.12a pitch on lead; famous attempt on Harding Route; FA of Deuceldike), but it seems like its the same old, rehashed once again. I'm kind of amazed there's even a debate anymore. At least the top-down style is not being justified as the selfless, "community service"--that always seemed a bogus argument to me.
Coz, nothing will ever change yours, Walt's, and Shultz's experience on the South Face. The whole wall could fall down and crumble, and your incredible adventure up there would remain.
I suppose I should make a confession, too. Bachar had entrusted me with a secret, he had picked out the line of Southern Belle far before Shultz, Coz, or Walt had ever seen it. I think he had even worked on the intial 5.12 overhanging thin hands pitch. It was pretty clear that the climb was a future testpiece. I was able to keep Bachar's secret for a year or so, but eventually, probably at some boozing session at the Deli, I let the cat out of the bag, and the boyz were on it soon after.
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scuffy b
climber
up the coast from Woodson
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Apr 11, 2008 - 07:38pm PT
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So...Deucy...you're saying this is ALL YOUR FAULT?????
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 11, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
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nah, last I heard The South Face of Half Dome was the sole domain of....
RICK JAMES BITCH!
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 11, 2008 - 08:10pm PT
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Coz, if it were a democracy, you know I'd be there, voting with ya.
But it may be like 2000, we might win the popular vote, but lose the future.
I think your plea for a bastion of purity is valid, of course, but I think the real issue is about land managers and their reaction to excessive construction work on the walls of Yosemite.
It's a new world, with new means of expression. If (perhaps a big "if") routes like Growing Up are done in moderation, and no repercussions from land managers arise as a consequence, then who's really to say that it shouldn't be done?
'cept for Rick James, of course...
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 11, 2008 - 09:09pm PT
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Then again, Coz, perhaps you have something there. In Britain, of course, there is a mutually respected division of regions acceptable/not acceptable for top-down climbing and bolts. Why not here?
Perhaps the South Face Half Dome is already in the "Top Down" category by recent precedent. Perhaps some of the other walls could be negotiated as the "Bastions of Bottom Up" (BoBu) for the future generations?
Or not. This is the land of Wal-Mart and conveinience, after all.
Interestingly, Bachar, the visionary that he is, tried to create a mutually agreed upon compromise way back in the 80's:
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Apr 11, 2008 - 09:59pm PT
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Thank You, Mr Hobart, finally, and I love your welders, and the electric stove is still kickin.
And remember..a bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken does not feed a family, it Contains a family.
Anybody for a moonlight 420 Goat Rock overhang, Banana Republic, on me...
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 11, 2008 - 11:18pm PT
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Huh?
This is a mind blower. That Deucey document that Bachar authored. I know way too much, much more than the tip of the iceberg that's been revealed here. Much more than I even want to know.
It's scary, and too bad I can't say.
If you all really knew, what's going on.
Maybe on the guys deathbed it'll be all revealed.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 11, 2008 - 11:57pm PT
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Here's what the Southern Belle topo shows. None of the 5.11d pitches look particularly runout on the topo, but of course the topo may not be "to scale".
[Edit: see further posts below - looking "safe" on the topo does not mean much (except that the topo is not very accurate in showing the runouts) - the runouts up there are very real].
1. 5.9 corner
2. 5.9, then 5.12 traverse to face crack
3. 5.12c enduro overhanging ow to wide hands and finally thin hand crack (sizing of crack is not mentioned on topo; that is from posts here); finishes with exit to dike and 5.9 face
4. 5.12d bolted face, then traverse right to 5.11a crack
5. crack protected by thin pins - 5.10 at start, 5.12a up high
6. up crack, former pendulum right freed on 5.11b face
7. 5.8
8. 5.10c start w/ no bolts, crosses South Face route, 5.11a near bolt, then 5.9 runout
9. 5.11a, 4 bolts on pitch
10. 5.11a runout traverse right, 5.11d above 3rd bolt, 5.10a face, 3.5" corner, another traverse to belay on The Ledge (South Face)
11. traverse left down and back up runout to bolt, 5.11d above bolt, short corner, then 5.10a past 2 bolts
12. 5.10b, 1 bolt
13. corner, 5.11c (R?) face reaching second bolt, 3 bolts on pitch
14. corner, then 5.10a above corner, no bolts
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 12, 2008 - 12:08am PT
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This May Help?
Is this Legal?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 12, 2008 - 12:25am PT
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Blair,
I think a scan/photo at that resolution will not be a problem, because it's not as nice looking as what could be copied from the guidebook.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 12, 2008 - 12:37am PT
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Ok thanks Clint.
Blair
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 12, 2008 - 12:38am PT
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Here is the text from Climbing #147 (1994) with the description of the attempted repeat by Hank Caylor and Alan Lester (note that the topo had just been published in the 1994 edition of Yosemite Climbs - Free Climbs by Don Reid):
Southern Belle: getting a reputation
In late July, Alan Lester joined forces with Hank Caylor in Yosemite Valley to attempt the second (and first one-day) ascent of the dicey 15-pitch Southern Belle (VI 5.12d R) on the South Face of Half Dome. The pair made excellent progress on the crux lower pitches, with Lester on-sighting the 5.12c/d fist-to-finger crack on the third pitch. By 10:30 a.m. they were over halfway up the face, with the four 5.12 pitches behind them. The upper pitches are no giveaway, however, involving very runout, insecure 5.11 face climbing. "Alan would go 75 feet to a 1/4-inch bolt, then another 75 feet to the belay," says Caylor. "And you couldn't see the bolts from below, so you were doing these moves that you couldn't reverse."
One hundred feet out on the eighth pitch, with one marginal HB nut and a tiny cam nestled 30 feet below him, Caylor took a 60-foot "slab-splashing plunge," as Lester put it. He sustained numerous bruises and abrasions and a broken ankle. "I scraped off all my skin," says Caylor. "It looks like I got dragged behind a pickup." Lester set up 1300 feet of devious angling rappels, then helped Caylor to the tourist trail, where rangers gave him a pony ride to the Valley floor. "The route was horrifying," says Caylor, who has done other Yosemite scare routes, like the Bachar-Yerian. "I'll never go back."
Lester, however, says, "I'm going back for sure, unless it gets done this fall." The route's reputation seems to grow. The taxing climbing and the long approach makes doing the route in a day even more formidable.
Dave Schultz of Yosemite and Scott Cosgrove of Joshua Tree freed the bold line in 1988. Peter Croft and Schultz had attempted it on two subsequent occasions, but reportedly never got past the fifth pitch.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 12, 2008 - 01:09am PT
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Oh, I believe you Hank, it's for real up there. A topo is not that much reassurance when you can't even see the bolts up above!
[sorta like the old topo for p2 of the Bachar-Yerian - says 5.10c and no bolts in sight after the first 1-2; no 5.10c leaders in sight on that one, either - I guess it meant the individual moves were not harder than 5.10c if you were somehow fresh - I toproped....]
I was just trying to get a feel for what it might be like for someone looking at the topo, maybe thinking "that doesn't look so runout?" But looking not too runout on the topo often does not match up with the rock - I've definitely been there before. It is tricky trying to decide how much to trust the topo and when to be more skeptical, especially when you can't match up the features above with the topo.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Apr 12, 2008 - 01:15am PT
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RE:
"It's scary, and too bad I can't say.
If you all really knew, what's going on.
Maybe on the guys deathbed it'll be all revealed. "
holy cow it's like a spy novel,
only for real - lot easier to Coz's point
after reading all that, whoa.
good luck sorting it out guys, seriously.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 12, 2008 - 01:19am PT
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Yeah, what's up...like Werner gets to be in another secret club that I don't get to be in???
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 12, 2008 - 03:18am PT
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Hey Pasha !!! or "Blowboarder"
Great to here from you!!! Those were the days huh? I remember when that 220 lb crankster straight out of prison was twirling that huge knife next to me while driving Kauks van and talking about cutting people up.
I remember getting really pissed off and stomping on the gas pedal. Pissed because we were actually helping him out w/ a ride. I remember looking in the rear view mirror at you and Chris holding onto crow bars and raedy to pounce.
One wrong move from that f#cker and I was planning to lock up the brakes, send his f#cking head through the window and beat his f#cking ass hard.
I remember cranking heavy metal loud at the Cannabis wall and climbing hard for days on end and partying even harder. And god forbid we were having tons of FUN sport climbing.
What a bunch of pussies we must have been. Climbing all those sport routes and actually thinking we were cool.
Hey, I have 3 kids now and if my wife would go for it, I would have more in a second. The best climbing days of my life have just begun now that I'm climbing with them.
Sure hope they don't turn out like us and climb for fun.
Lots of love !!!!!! and talk to you soon !!!!!
Sean.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 12, 2008 - 03:31am PT
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Today I went digging through piles in my climbing gear room to try and find the topo for Growing Up. Dug for an hour and didn't find it. I then called Rock&Ice to see if they had the one I sent them. They said they lost it.
Tomarrow I'll try one more time in the room. If I can't find it, I'll draw up another one. Luckily, if I have to draw another one, I have a very photographic memory and it WILL be very accurate. I promise !
Sorry it's taken so long to get it out there. I did send it to Rock&Ice in hopes it would have made it into the issue w/ the article.
Peace,
Sean.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 12, 2008 - 08:58am PT
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Funny you should use Ugly American to describe rap bolting??? shows you how irational these arguments can get. Chances are pretty darn good the Euros would be all for rap bolting and use the term Ugly American on us for telling them how they are allowed to climb.......
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 12, 2008 - 10:03am PT
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OK, so I just read [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=566859&tn=1179"]DR's description of what they did.[/url] If you have not read his excellent summary, then you should. The link above will take you directly to it.
My summary of it is this:
"We worked really hard for the first part of the wall, and gave it a lot of thought, and did a damn good job climbing it. But then it got even harder.
So instead of backing off because it was too hard - which might have upset our sponsors or magazine editors - or backed off because it become too time-consuming or scary to drill our bolts on lead from hooks, instead we went to the summit with topropes and completed our "ascent" by rap-bolting to create what we are now attempting to justify as a legit big wall route."
"This much exhausting of traditional means before reluctantly stepping beyond them is what I see our route saying."
What a load horsesh|t. I don't see your route saying that at all. You guys just got lazy, and when you had had enough, you took the easy way to the top.
Shameful.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 12, 2008 - 10:47am PT
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Just to be clear Pete...
if they had stayed in ground up mode, and drilled bolt and rivet ladders through all the harder climbing that couldn't be stance or hook drilled, would you have no problem with the route. (even if it had 4 times as many holes and missed the line of least resistance?)
it's worth answering.
Why would you feel to the need to dictate "their experience" if the outcome for the stone is actually better? It's certainly easier and safer to climb walls in the style that you do rather than do it 2 or 3 times faster like everybody else. Even the FA party on Hollow Flake didn't aid it? So why not live and let live?
Peace
Karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 12, 2008 - 11:45am PT
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Karl, good question, and worth examining. I have another I've been pondering.
I have no doubt that Sean and the FA team had the skills to climb the route. From
descriptions, the upper slab has one .11d pitch followed by easier. This well within
the skills of the team.
Unwilling to blindly drill ladders, they rapped to scope the headwall and
discovered a dearth of stances and hook placements. It was this, and not a lack
of time (or skill), that lead them to rap bolt.
OK, the question: Should this route have been left to someone willing to risk their life for the FA?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Apr 12, 2008 - 12:15pm PT
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Karl's hit on exactly the question I've been trying to get across as well.
Do all of you folks that don't like this route think it would have been much better with a few more rivet ladders, perhaps even a couple of failed lines of rivet ladders when they discovered they didn't go the right way?
Certainly a pretty good choice would have been not to continue, but there are certainly no shortage of routes in Yos where a line was forced by drilling more holes, so it seems like plenty of people have considered that acceptable.
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say-no-to-rap-bolting!
Trad climber
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Apr 12, 2008 - 12:51pm PT
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I completely agree with 'pass the pitons pete'.
IMO:
chop it.(a local with authority...)
don't offend the guys that did the first ascent.
try to keep this kind of climb (that never saw a first ascent) out of the Valley. Please!!!
wouldn't it be a cool climb if they just stopped when they couldn't lead bolt it anymore?
cheers
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 12, 2008 - 01:00pm PT
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Since you agree with Pete, perhaps you could take a stab at the question as well, (just so we know what's OK or not OK, subject to the Chop penalty)
if they had stayed in ground up mode, and drilled bolt and rivet ladders through all the harder climbing that couldn't be stance or hook drilled, would you have no problem with the route. (even if it had 4 times as many holes and missed the line of least resistance?)
Peace
karl
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 12, 2008 - 01:04pm PT
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Honestly, I'm surprised at all the talk about rivet ladders (or bathooking) as a way of making progress to install a free line.
I don't recall our ever talking about that option in those endless discussions about what to do. Speaking just for myself, the idea seems disgusting, degrading to the stone of this magnificent Dome, boring to actually do. Even if you patch it later, it would still feel like stitches in a scar on your face -- still a wound on the clean stone.
And 2-3 of those ladders to nowhere? Meandering and blanking out? Even patched after? Yuck! What we did feels much cleaner to me.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 12, 2008 - 01:08pm PT
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I find it very hard to believe that a low-angle face which can be free climbed does not have a few edges on it where you could hang a hook, and drill a bolt on lead. Did the FA team not do this for a while, and then suddenly stop and switch to rap bolt?
Largo and his Stonemasters used to do this back in the day. Perhaps John can comment?
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say-no-to-rap-bolting!
Trad climber
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Apr 12, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
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a rivet ladder?
god, that's IMO a very bad idea on a 'free climb'.it's not common that kind of climbing to use a huge bolt ladder.
I don't think Sean Jones ever considered that option(DR's reply is clear). It's complete nonsense.
warbler, this hypothetical style is not realistic... is there a route like that? 5.13, free, and then several pitches that are bolt ladders? Hope not! If there is such a route: no problem if anyone chops the upper part.
As I said, I think the best would have been to STOP BEFORE THEY STARTED RAPBOLTING.
What's the problem if the route doesn't go to the summit because the FA party realised that it was too hard for them to achieve it in good style? There may be someone else able to finish it without a rivet ladder of several hundred feet.
To renounce is hard but often rewarding.
cheers
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Apr 12, 2008 - 01:41pm PT
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A route like that already exists on the south face. Cataclysmic Megasheer. Not 5.13, but it does contain what appear to me from the topo, several pitches of bolt ladder. Should that also be chopped? Is that better than Growing Up?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 12, 2008 - 01:48pm PT
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I will answer Karl's question with a third option.....
When the FA party realized *they* couldn't do the route ground up without resorting to rivert ladders and bat hook holes they should have left the route for someone who could do it ground up without resorting to rivet ladders and hooks.
There are two really big assumptions floating around here that I don't buy:
1) these guys were good enough to do it(implying that nobody else could have done it ground up)
2) there were no places to drill using groud up means(stance, hooks, etc.)
I think we are all missing another huge factor in this discussion. No disrespect to the other climber who helped Sean with the FA, but it is pretty clear from reading the article in R&I and the stuff here on ST that Sean was a way better climber than any of his partners who worked on the *upper* section of the route.
One big factor in going for it on scary routes, witness the synergy between Shipley and Scultz on SB, is having at least two climbers who are competent enough to do what it takes to put in the bolts. You feed off of each other's performances and raise
your game to a higher level. Because all the difficult climbing was falling on Sean's shoulders and there was noone else to help carry the load it is easy to see why the decision was made to rap bolt.
Here's a question for Karl. If Sean had been up there with Dave Schultz or Walt Shipley would they have been able to do the route ground up? ..not only because it would have made a stronger climbing team, but there might have been enough synergy to overcome some of the mental obstacles as well.
Bruce
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 12, 2008 - 01:51pm PT
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deucey - Who is this so-called Bachar guy and why did he think he could make the rules?
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jstan
climber
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Apr 12, 2008 - 01:54pm PT
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This one is dead. Never make 1300 posts.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 12, 2008 - 01:57pm PT
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PTPP, you're getting offensive.
Is four months of working on a route "lazy"? That's 5-10 times more work than went into Southern Belle. Maybe I should call their lack of bolting "lazy" then? But unlike you I have some respect for those with other styles. Did you notice that I just called Southern Belle "the proudest line on the face"?
Then a new pseudonym pops up: "say-no-to-rap-bolting!"
chop it.(a local with authority...)
don't offend the guys that did the first ascent."
I would be one of those guys. I didn't climb it (injured, remember, and anyway I don't climb as hard as Sean) But I put a lot of sweat into the FA, and a lot of thought, trying honestly to weigh the options and do the right thing. I have my own authority, and I use my real name and put my reputation on the line.
Most of the major players here have put themselves out there too. The critics as well as the defenders. Anong the critics: Bachar has plenty of authority. Coz has earned his cred. Caylor is right out there for us to see. Tom Higgins has put a lifetime into style and ethics. Those guys all disagree with me, but they're putting it right out there and signing their names. There are many more.
So Mr.Pete and Mr. "say-no," stand up and show me your authority and tell me why you feel so strongly. I'm listening. A lot of us are.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 12, 2008 - 02:40pm PT
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Bruce wrote
'Here's a question for Karl. If Sean had been up there with Dave Schultz or Walt Shipley would they have been able to do the route ground up? ..not only because it would have made a stronger climbing team, but there might have been enough synergy to overcome some of the mental obstacles as well. '
There are two options here Bruce. The FA team says the actual line of least resistance would have been their third or fourth choice from the bottom. So it's more than possible that if they had Dave or Walt with them, that they would have established a dead-end death route to nowhere or resorted to rivets or bat-hooks through areas that couldn't be freed.
The other option would be, that somehow, through perfect intuition-route-finding, if they knew the right line to take (a big if) then we'd have an x-rated route, if indeed, it's true that there were very few edges for hooking to drill.
That's answering your question. Personally, I welcome having a more doable, non-death route up there and don't insist every FA team be the very best on the planet. Sean is plenty good enough for this route.
Even the death route climbers like Dave and Coz don't play like that everyday. This kind of route can be repeated with joy. Notice that, if Southern Belle was such a great route, the FAA team didn't go back and repeat it, take a friend along to share the joy or anything like that. Too many death routes, to me, is a waste of stone resource. Others, obviously, think differently.
Peace
Karl
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 12, 2008 - 02:53pm PT
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A lot of man-puffery in the last few pages...
Like dingus said, your time for stopping the route from being put in has passed, whats been done has been done. Chopping is about ego and nothing else... its a way of physically dominating and degrading. I'm not saying the route was done in good style, nor am I saying it was in terrible style... it was done "modern."
Modern first ascentionists that I have known do things a bit differently. It is less and less about the experience of the FA party and about the experiences of other parties... the days are gone when you can go into a classic climbing locale and pick off 5-10 plumbs as FA's. There isn't enough rock for everyone to do FA's of great lines... knowing that... I think the shift is going to be putting up routes that will get repeated. Guys like Socalbolter, Bob D., and countless others (quite a few San Diego locals as well) have often sacrificed having an adventure on their FA to put a route up that has well placed bolts, protecting the second, etc etc.
I just see things going this way... a paradigm shift if you will. Again, not that I'm pro or con. Just the way life is going, I think. Its been going, but now that its on Half Dome... we all crawled out of our caves and took a look at it.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Apr 12, 2008 - 02:55pm PT
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OK, from the horses whatever:
"As the number of climbers visiting the park has increased through the years, the impacts of climbing have become much more obvious. Some of those impacts include: soil compaction, erosion, and vegetation loss in parking areas, at the base of climbs, and on approach and descent trails, destruction of cliffside vegetation and lichen, disturbance of cliff-dwelling animals, litter, water pollution from improper human waste disposal, and the visual blight of chalk marks, pin scars, bolts, rappel slings, and fixed ropes. Many of these impacts can be eliminated or greatly reduced by following the minimum impact practices outlined in the conservation guidelines offered on this page. The impacts of your actions may seem insignificant, but when multiplied by the thousands of people who climb here every year they can have a significant, long lasting effect.
Your help is needed to ensure that Yosemite remains a beautiful and healthy place for the future.
What you can do
1. Read and follow the guidelines and regulations below.
2. If you see climbers who are not following these guidelines, talk to them. Explain how they can minimize their impact, and why it is important that they do so.
3. Clean up after others. Pick up trash when you see it, or return with friends on a rest day and do a thorough clean-up. Take part in organized clean-ups and other projects.
4. Climb safely! Rescues endanger rescuers' lives, are expensive, and cause a lot of impact.
5. Keep informed about closed areas, and respect these closures.
Conservation/Regulations
Fight litter! Don't toss anything off a wall, even if you intend to pick it up later. Don't leave food or water at the top or on ledges for future parties. Set a good example by picking up any litter you see, including tape wads and cigarette butts.
Don't leave fixed ropes as permanent fixtures on approaches and descents. These are considered abandoned property and will be removed.
Minimize erosion on your approach and descent. If an obvious main trail has been created, use it. Go slow on the way down to avoid pushing soil down the hill. Avoid walking on vegetation whenever possible.
On first ascents: Please think about the impacts that will be caused by your new climb- Is the approach susceptible to erosion? Is there a lot of vegetation on the rock? "Gardening" (i.e., killing plants), is illegal in Yosemite. Can the climb be done with a minimum of bolts? Motorized drills are prohibited."
So no real cut and dry answer like:
"Park Regulation 6.073.d states that blah blah blah, so snitch off your fellow climber."
So what they did was a judgment call, but not illegal from the strict standpoint of some obscure federal regulation.
And even the above guide mentions "Climb Safely"
Which can contradict the Sierra Club approach, so a balance is needed.
OK, thanks!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 12, 2008 - 03:12pm PT
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DR,
I don't have any more or less authority than you nor anyone else. I just think it's cheating to go to the top and rap down to finish your route. I never bloody rap bolted any of my new routes - I did them all ground up. Hell, I never even bolted 'em. If I couldn't do it clean, then I left it. [Of course, eventually the rap-bolting sport-climbing pussies came along and bolted it anyway. Some of my clean lines have even been retro-bolted because the bolter couldn't conceive that someone could climb such rock without bolts!]
As for Half Dome, if you couldn't drill bolts from stances or hooks on lead, then leave it for someone else who will. Incidentally, on the top part - why didn't you drill on lead from hooks or stances? Is this not what you did on the bottom part?
If you find me offensive, that's just too bloody bad, mate. I simply do not condone the behaviour you used to put up this route. Rap bolting is cheating. If you don't want to get offended, then don't do it again.
You are the author of your own misfortune, especially in light of the high ethical stance you previously took, and wrote about extensively over the years.
I concur with say-no and bhilden.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 12, 2008 - 03:48pm PT
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Thanks, Pete.
Better tone this time. I appreciate it. And I'd appreciate a bit more about your routes. Name, place, grade? Which ones got rap retro-bolted?
You asked: on the top part - why didn't you drill on lead from hooks or stances?
I have explained that so many times now that it makes me feel like maybe you're spewing but not listening in return. It's not that the climbing got harder, as you said earlier. It got easier. 5.13a below, 5.11d above the point where we changed styles.
To repeat, we did it because it got more serious. More runout. More deadly. We didn't want to climb such a route, and we didn't want to leave such a route behind for others. Plenty of opportunity to face that much seriousness over on Southern Belle. We also wanted climbers considering going up the South Face to have a choice of seriousness. We didn't feel it was fair for the wall to be exclusively monopolized by death routes.
I know you don't agree with our choice or or reasons for our choice. I get it that you're pissed. But at least listen.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 12, 2008 - 04:00pm PT
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Names - hundreds
Places - all over Ontario
Ratings - up to 11's
Bolts - zero
Free Climbing these days - retired
Ability to repeat above routes - none
My route Resplendence at Old Baldy in Kimberly, Ontario got retro-bolted. I hope the bolter removed the bolts, I'm not sure what happened.
C'mon, man - are you telling me you that you couldn't, or that you wouldn't, continue drilling on lead from hooks? So what if it got more serious, more runout and more deadly? Is that your justification for running to the summit and dropping a toprope? It's a friggin' big wall - it's supposed to be serious, runout and deadly! The Stonemasters and others created brilliant routes by really sacking up, and drilling on lead from terrifying and difficult stances. Why not you guys?
Part of your justification appears to be leaving a route that is easier for others to climb, and not so difficult. But this is not what the rock offers! If it's a death wall, then let it BE a death wall. There is nothing wrong with that.
Damn straight I'm pissed, man. Next thing you know, everyone else will be up there dropping topropes. Great, just great.
I hope the criticism you receive for this route will cause you to think, and to never do such a thing again.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 12, 2008 - 04:09pm PT
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Karl and others in this discussion have said that they felt the FA team on Growing Up was "good enough" to do the route. I would like to know what crieria you all used to determine that the team was "good enough".
Bruce
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Apr 12, 2008 - 04:17pm PT
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I have one question, with all this talk and endless text. Are any of you people losing sleep over this? Sure looks that way... hahahahaha... losers if so!!!
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 12, 2008 - 04:41pm PT
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"We didn't want to climb such a route"
Can't wait until that phrase gets jumped on...
Karl's got a good point that death routes are a waste of resources too. I'm only stepping in to say to PTPP: even though I agree with what a lot of your statements, I think they're a bit mis-directed. Doug has said time and time again that he wasn't the prime decision maker, and Sean (the leader) has opened himself up to conversation via email.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 12, 2008 - 05:06pm PT
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Screw e-mail...Let's hash it out right here!
Besides, how else will we get to 2000 posts??
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 12, 2008 - 05:22pm PT
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Pete,
Yes, I am telling you, once again, that we couldn't stance and we couldn't hook. Couldn't, not wouldn't.
I've done Stonemaster routes. Big respect for them. But I can see, when I'm there on the stance, how they could stop and drill. Masterful, but not mysterious. Same for the Bruce Carson routes mentioned earlier at Dome Rock. Done em, and I get how thin the stances are. Thin but possible.
This is a different deal. Featured, but the features are scalloped and polished. And the wall is 75 degrees -- pretty steep for a slab. We were there. We checked out the stone. Hell, we rapped in and checked it out. If we had judged that there were enough stances and enough hook placements to drill enough pro for our leading standards -- not difficulty standards, but standards of neckiness -- then we could have pulled the rap rope, gone around, and started again from the bottom.
But we judged it differently from that. Just between Sean and I there is 70 years of climbing experience, and we brought it all to bear on the stone before us. (Ben was up there too. He's been around, just can't quote his years.) Then we sighed, and started drilling from above.
To repeat: This is not a sport climb. It has runouts. sporty runouts. You could take a 60 footer up there. I'd call that runout and serious.
You say: It's a friggin' big wall - it's supposed to be serious, runout and deadly!
Neither Sean nor I agree. Serious, check. Runout, check. But in the Valley most walls are not deadly. Most climbers here would not agree that they're supposed to be deadly.
Both of us have done death routes. But taunting death is not our style. We both like seriousness. We both like runouts. But up to a point. Since we were putting up this route, we got to choose where that point came: how serious and how runout. Just like you got to choose whatever it was you chose for all the routes you put up.
Sorry to hear that you can't, or won't, climb anymore. I sure feel lucky that I can and do.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 12, 2008 - 06:00pm PT
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Sean Jones said:
"
Great to here from you!!! Those were the days huh? I remember when that 220 lb crankster straight out of prison was twirling that huge knife next to me while driving Kauks van and talking about cutting people up.
I remember getting really pissed off and stomping on the gas pedal. Pissed because we were actually helping him out w/ a ride. I remember looking in the rear view mirror at you and Chris holding onto crow bars and raedy to pounce."
Ya man, that sh#t was scarier than aid climbing. What he said was:
"This'd cut you bloody" while looking straight at you. Still gives me chills to think about it.
And I had your wall hammer in one hand with Tret's (RIP) collar in the other, ready to smack him down and throw 125# of pit/rot mix into the fray.
Glad homeboy sensed he was about to f*#k up and backed off. F*#kin tweakers.
I got your email, responded, call me on that 800# anytime bro, love to catch some years up.
I can't be bothered to read this whole witch hunt but someone fill me in:
1) Has anyone repeated this route or this a bunch of conjecture?
2) Considering the Muir Wall debacle, I find the tone of the original poster in this thread quite, umm, biblical.
"Do as I say, not as I do."
Sean, stay cool bro, great to hear from you, call me.
Pasha Stewart
Anonymity is for faags.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 12, 2008 - 06:13pm PT
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Bruce wrote
"Karl and others in this discussion have said that they felt the FA team on Growing Up was "good enough" to do the route. I would like to know what crieria you all used to determine that the team was "good enough". "
They put up a fine line, without excessive bolting, and have 70 years of experience between them. Good enough. Complaining that they didn't get scared enough is their business, not the business of those who would say the route should wait for a 5.15 climber who could put up a death route with hardly as much excitement as the FA team here did.
I've been answering questions directed at me. How about Pete and others who have dissed the rap-bolting answering the question I've been asking.
"if they had stayed in ground up mode, and drilled bolt and rivet ladders through all the harder climbing that couldn't be stance or hook drilled, would you have no problem with the route. (even if it had 4 times as many holes and missed the line of least resistance?) "
We have to know what's OK, if you say rap-bolting isn't OK. It seems plain from the honest word of Sean and Doug, who have plainly stated their tactics, that a ground up ascent would have certainly missed the line. Anybody who doubts that can go up and put in the "Throwing Up" variation ground up. Don't just say, they should have just gone down. I'm wondering if a flawed ground up route would have get your qualified congratulations.
The precedent is surely there for beating the slab to death. Harding drilled rivet and bat-hook ladders up the same slab and nobody here is calling it bad style.
peace
Karl
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 12, 2008 - 06:58pm PT
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Although I don't entirely disagree with DR's argument that there's something positive in an accessible route that's more in sync with "Today's" standards (obviously Coz and Schultz were too far ahead of their time), I'll try to respond to Karl's question.
Would a ground-up route with more bolts and perhaps not-as-fine-tuned for free-climbing line be preferable?
I would say it depends on the style. If it were sieged, with ropes fixed the whole way up the wall, then perhaps no, it wouldn't be preferable. But if it were climbed "alpine-style" then I'd say yes, because it involves more commitment (not the type that requires months of effort working on a route, but the type that requires a momentary separation from safety that is based on one's confidence in their skills).
If there's a given level of commitment "required" by the community-at-large to establish new routes, the quality of the routes will be more elegant, in my opinion. Not easier or harder necessarily, but overall more elegant.
Because, really, top-down is just a siege in the opposite direction.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Apr 12, 2008 - 07:24pm PT
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RE:
"That's all - back to the food fight."
whipped cream, baby...
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 12, 2008 - 08:56pm PT
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"Because, really, top-down is just a siege in the opposite direction. "
Wise words!
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chossyslab
climber
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Apr 12, 2008 - 08:59pm PT
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"Because, really, top-down is just a siege in the opposite direction"
ZING!
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Brandon Lampley
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 12, 2008 - 11:13pm PT
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I'm curious. Could the belays on the upper route have been drilled from stance. Seems like the answer could define either of two possibilities.
1. The route could have gone ground up, with no pro between belays, but belays drilled on lead.
or
2. The route simply could not have been put up roped, save for a 95 or 150 meter rope? (not feasible?) Put up freesolo onsight? unlikely 200 consecutive holes? NO WAY Or just NEVER climbed!
Seems Pete's got the cred to run his mouth about anything El Cap save new free routes, but concerning this?
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Apr 12, 2008 - 11:32pm PT
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When I need some calming I walk into the room where this is hanging and stare
Hopefully it will have the same calming effect here.
To those who would chop, you may want to avoid Robbins' regrets after WEML, and only chop on your SECOND time up the route. Use your first time up the route to check it out and see if it's really the abomination you claim it is. Post up here (all you posters here who might actually climb the route. I'm no dreamer here - GU would never have been on even my dream list.)
To those who would slam the FA team - there will be a Facelift session devoted to Growing Up. Be there, and tell them to their collective faces what you think. (Sorry, DR, Sean et al - now you'll have to show up to Facelift. I'll bring beer).
Bill
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 12, 2008 - 11:37pm PT
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That is a gorgeous piece of artwork!
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:02am PT
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This is just a re-post of Post #3 in this thread, which seems Oh so long ago:
" 1000 bolts with coz's name on them.
Some glue-on holds for ambivalence.
A shock kit at the base with mental relaxant drugs for those who will freak when they see.
Something for the heart too, a defibrillator, to revive the weak hearted.
Hahahaha Coz ....... "
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:18am PT
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One more question...Are you guys jacking it to some of your own posts?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:29am PT
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Thanks Ed
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:44am PT
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Since we have a warm fuzzy lul in the action,
I just have to post these photos of Shultz & Hank from BITD.
Call it half-time comic relief!
Shultz, a.k.a. "The Iron Monkey" a cuple/three years before the death route days:
...and Hankster, some short time before he got bucked by the 'Belle:
...and Schultzy, Coz, & Kauk & Hiskes huckin' rocks at squirrels in C4 lot.
Those death route boys, they got no regard fer life I tell ya.
(Well, not Kauk, he just watched: Peace Bro!)
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:50am PT
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hats off to Shultz and Coz et. all
for their visionary effort on the
Southern Belle - holy cow!
Incredible.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 13, 2008 - 01:24am PT
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is it just me?
cripes pedro, if you are gonna get involved in criticizing these guys after 1200+ posts, make some effort to at least read DR's and sean's posts before you start flappin yer keyboard.
is that really too much to ask?
there are no 14 yr old climber groupies to impress around here, so take your time and become 1/2 way familiar with the discussion before you start laying out assumptions that were quashed in the 1st 100 posts or so.
sheesh...
btw bouldering the shist around ontario counts for jack squat, nobody cares.
DR and sean- a word to the wise, if you'd just start findin some GAWD up there in them mountains, the born-again-so-not-accountable-canadian-crowd would have your back 24/7.
(isn't it at least a little ironic that the champion of the WoS crew is now rejuvinating his oh-so-strict interpretations? too bad ya'll haven't found THE BETTER WAY yet- haha)
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 01:49am PT
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I read something that said chop it. I think the f#cker was written by someone..... can't even remember.....It said(local with athority) Are you afraid to post your real name ? As I said before, My home # is 209-379-2870.
If you have a problem, call ME ! If I find out about you or anyone else chopping anything, anywhere. I'll have no problem kicking your f#cking ass.
Maybe you should go chop all the routes everywhere that aren't the way you see fit. Hell lets go to Europe and tell the whole country full of athletes that have been kicking our sad American asses for how many years now? That they all suck too and we PROUD Americans who make all the rules are gonna go set the whole world straight.
Bottom line, Get off the computer, Off your ass and go climb something. And shut the f#ck up.
Am I sounding pissed now ? I'm actually starting to get that way.
Sean Jones.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Apr 13, 2008 - 02:08am PT
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Apr 13, 2008 - 02:59am PT
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Again, coming from a younger generation of climbers.
This route should not be chopped. In SD we are currently feeling the effects of bolt chopping and nothing is worse for climbers and nothing is worse for rock. I don't support the style or ethics used on GU but this does not give anyone the right to remove bolts. Whatever needs to be hashed out with words or other methods should be done but without chopping. I hope this is accomplished. I'm going climbing.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Apr 13, 2008 - 11:00am PT
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Sean writes: If I find out about you or anyone else chopping anything, anywhere. I'll have no problem kicking your f#cking ass.
This seems a bit over the top. Are we ready for a "who owns the rock" argument? Some guys like putting them in, some guys like taking them out.
Threats of ass kicking....? oh my. Are you policing the world or just the US with last statement?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2008 - 11:14am PT
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Sean writes: If I find out about you or anyone else chopping anything, anywhere. I'll have no problem kicking your f#cking ass.
Some posts should probably be accompanied by the number of beer onboard while typing.
Still, if I had made multiple runs up to half dome, spent money and sweat working on something that hard, I'd be pissed too.
Easy to say the word "Chop" on an online forum, easy to be upset by it.
Peace
Karl
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say-no-to-rap-bolting!
Trad climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 11:47am PT
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ok karl baba, it's easy to say the word chop just like that
but, if you accept one route like that you'll have to accept anotherone as well, and anotherone. So where to stop? On El Cap? Or on the NW Face?
If this route doesn't get chopped then there is a chance others will follow the example. Why not rapbolting El Cap??? Because it's El Cap? This is Half Dome...
If there was a guarantee that GU will be the only rapbolted climb on a YV big wall then it's ok, and can be accepted as an exception. But who gives you that guarantee?
sean jones: your post just disqualified you for a reasonable discussion. no need for a name then... On my first post I should have written my name sure, but now...
I thought this wasn't a discussion where it's all about offending others. Am I wrong? I hope you are an exception, both in being impolite and in your perception of climbing(I guess that's not the case...)
edit:nothing to say anymore...
bl
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Chewbongka
climber
लघिमा
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:15pm PT
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Sounds like Growing Up is about to go down.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:17pm PT
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"obviously Coz and Schultz were too far ahead of their time"
You mean there will be a time when routes like Southern Belle become daily doings?
No, I don't think so. Instead, Coz and Shultz and Walt were willing to risk it all for their route. There's nothing ahead of their time in that, people have been doing that for as long as people have climbed.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:37pm PT
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Warbler, those were some of the best points I've read...
Y'all know what RR said about Tis-a-ack...
bzzzt, bzzzt
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:51pm PT
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Ah quit your fuking whining.
Sean's pissed off now and if he says he's gonna ass kick, big fukin deal.
So what! People say all kinds of things, big fukin deal.
This whole thread is so much talk, blah blah blah.
They did it, go on with your lives or climb the thing.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:53pm PT
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u climb it first...tick the key holds...hahaha
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 13, 2008 - 12:59pm PT
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I second that about Warbler. Talk about helping us keep our keel in the water...
And Werner the Wise brings us back to Salathe's point:
"Vy don't ve just climb?"
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Ω
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 01:04pm PT
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Yeah Werner you tell them!!!
Screw all the anti rap bolters, most of them cant climb above 5.10 and Pass the Pitons has done way more damage to the rock with all his aid climbing that rap bolters ever had.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 01:55pm PT
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A brief side comment to start. What we now have here on ST is a
victory for civil discourse.
When I disagree violently with a person on topic A, by remaining civil I retain the possibility we will be able to work side by side when we agree passionately on topic B. Granted we have our share of pooh contests just for the enjoyment. But when something important comes up, the atmosphere becomes entirely serious.
In the absence of civil discourse, we have nothing.
Jeff has asked me to say something, possibly believing I can be persuasive. It is a hope only as the data to the contrary is quite extensive. One thing I learned during my time in industry was that when a person repeats what they just finished saying to me, it generally meant for some reason they needed me to believe them. A budget was the issue more often than not. I don't have a reason for needing anyone to believe me so I won't repeat what I have said. Once should be enough.
In the sixties and seventies I learned a rule of engagement in these things that I continue to follow. In such public questions it is inappropriate for an individual to proclaim they have the answer. The answer MUST be identified by the group of affected persons - all of us. Therein lies the incredible power of Roger Breedlove's
"Hypothesis". Nothing. Nothing advanced in this now longish thread is more than a hypothesis.
As each of you in turn approach old age, you may detect as I have, that there are individuals who are right more often than not. One of these has suggested we all leave the computer and go out and climb. To this excellent suggestion I would add the following. When you are 100 feet out and around a corner from your belayer and the crowd, where you can hear nothing but the breeze blowing over the rock, please do the following. Look at the rock. Look up at the sky. And then dig down very deeply to find the essential element, the core, of what makes you love this.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 02:33pm PT
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Sorry if I came across so hard last night. I've been trying really hard to stay calm, sit back and think alot, then respond.
I blew that last night. I guess I'd better sit back some more, think some more. I really do feel the way I wrote but try not to go to war as opposed to try and resolve. Meet in the middle.
I've been married for years now and have gone to battle. That's why I was on the SF to begin with. I've seen us both throwing blows back and forth. Stabbing each others guts out with steely blades. Killing each other. And going nowhere but down from it. Not only us but everyone around us goes down too.
That's where the name Growing Up came from. From me spending alot of time out there and thinking. The route for me was originaly to be called Drama( that would have been perfect) another name I couldn't get away from was Pain Killer.
The only reason me and Maggie are still in the same house now, is from trying to grow up. to realize that we're not the same and don't need to be the same. There's room for her to be her and me to be me. The age old debates in climbing are just the same. Whether you like it or not.
Going down the face of 1/2 dome with a crow bar, ripping a bunch of holes in the wall in my eyes is the worst possible thing to do. Where does it stop ? We then need to go to Medlicott dome and rip apart Peace and a thousand more routes in the valley. And thousands more everywhere else.
I really don't need to kick anyones ass for that. You'll kick your own ass by doing so. Hero to a few and total fool to many.
Growing Up is far and away the best,most beautiful line I've ever climbed. I said before, If you want to do Southern Belle, Do SB. If you want to do GU, do GU. Peace or BY. It's all good.
Why try holding back the wave ?
You'll only drown in the changes.
You've gotta learn to let go.
just let go and experience the flight.
Try to see from a different side.
If balance is the key,
maybe we'll see
A future of understanding.
Peace,
Sean.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 13, 2008 - 02:38pm PT
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maybe this one too
Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.
Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.
Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.
Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.
The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 02:43pm PT
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jstan
Nice post !
Today I'm taking 5 kids climbing. All less than 7 yrs. old. I'm very excited. The only thing we'll focus on is how to move over the rock and do so smoothly. To have fun,look around,realize how lucky we are and support each other.
Hope everyone else out there has a great day as well.
Again, sorry to get so pissed a couple posts ago.
I really hate fighting.
Sean.
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say-no-to-rap-bolting!
Trad climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 03:08pm PT
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sean jones,
I am sorry I judged you after one post last night. That was foolish too.
your two last posts were very kind.You showed you are a wise man...
Many of my friends (would) rapbolt. I wouldn't, but we are still friends.
That I don't like your way of finishing that climb doesn't mean I think anything bad about you. If we meet some day, we'll have a couple of beers and discuss it after a day of climbing(GU?). I'll never chop it. I never thought about doing so.
I wish you a fantastic climbing day while it's getting dark here.
Ben Lepesant, Lux
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2008 - 04:01pm PT
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I Love you all. (I know that sounds squishy but f*#k it)
Given the history of past slagfests, I think we are Growing Up.
Respect to all
Peace
baba
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 13, 2008 - 04:51pm PT
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Just when things were getting spicy, you guys blew what could have been a great slag-fest. ;-(
Now all of a sudden you're sounding like a couple of S.N.A.G.s (Sensitive New-Age Guys).
I guess I'll now have to do the unthinkable...
(get off my fat ass and go climbing)
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Apr 13, 2008 - 06:24pm PT
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Some good points here from both sides of the coin. Some good calls for reason and stepping back to appreciate what's really important, also. I've been reluctant to add my 2 cents, mainly because I really, really like to avoid confrontations.
SO,YOU GOT A FUKIN PROBLEM WITH THAT?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 13, 2008 - 06:50pm PT
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K-man writes:
"You mean there will be a time when routes like Southern Belle become daily doings?
No, I don't think so. Instead, Coz and Shultz and Walt were willing to risk it all for their route. There's nothing ahead of their time in that, people have been doing that for as long as people have climbed."
Exactly my point, people have always been doing that, and routes once considered "way out there", climbable only by a few elite, become trade routes a few generations later.
The trouble with numbers is that Southern Belle, with its lowly grade of 5.12, really requires the skills of 5.14 climbers. If it were actually graded 5.14, nobody would be questioning why it wasn't more "accessible".
I say give the wall a sporting chance. I've been up there, seen it up close, and was probably the first one ever to climb 5.10 or harder on the South Face proper, and I'd even go as far as to say that from the top of the arch up, even with my old and fat ass, I'd be able to establish a new free route with enough time, fixed ropes, and unlimited supply of bolts. But I'd be robbing those who could climb it in better style. Is climbing really all about accessiblity these days?
Above: the pic of me (John Middendorf) free climbing during our attempt of the South Face back in 1986, angled a bit for clarity.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 13, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
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Wow - usually people rotate pics to make the terrain look steeper, knott the other way around...
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Brandon Lampley
Mountain climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 13, 2008 - 08:18pm PT
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I don't have an iron in this fire, and no cred to speak of either, but I am curious.
Doug Robinson wrote above:
"Yes, I am telling you, once again, that we couldn't stance and we couldn't hook. Couldn't, not wouldn't." ...and... "If we had judged that there were enough stances and enough hook placements to drill enough pro for our leading standards..."
So, could any lead protection have been drilled on lead? Could belays have been drilled on lead?
If the route genuinely couldn't have been put in ground up save a bolt ladder, the style Sean put it up in seems like the best.
Doug, you likely don't remember me, but I guided for MOS very briefly in the Bay area.
Brandon
It also seems to me that the boldest statement out there would be the ground up variation to the upper pitches. Somebody do it (out of my league and will always be).
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 13, 2008 - 08:50pm PT
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coz wrote:
"Sean,
I am not scared, but do you have to show the world what an A hole you are?
Your route may very likely disappear, and you are not going to stop anything with your threats.
Do you want to threaten me?
Scott Cosgrove"
coz, your post sounds like it is also a threat.
It seems to me that a better threat from the old school would be to say, "Bla bla bla GU. Bla bla SB. Bla bla bla rapbolt. Im going out there and flash your route and then put up one right next to it in the correct style."
Become the change you want to see in the world and show the world this is the way coz is and (?always?) has been.
IMHO. I think climbing cant afford big bolt wars. The rocks and the people have to live out this life together and the same for the climbers and the people. Pretty soon we might find that the people don't like bolts in their rocks. And the people might find that the climbers aren't able to manage their own sport and its impact on the worlds most beautiful places. I hope the climbers can keep it cool and figure out how to make it all work.
I also wanted to send Props to all the regulars on the taco show for posting in such a civil manner. You all have covered a lot of ground on this thread and kept it on course. I look forward to the future.
PEACE
Blair
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KyleO
Ice climber
Calgary, AB
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Apr 13, 2008 - 09:00pm PT
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Fatty,
Someone with such strong opinions must have high ethical standards and much climbing experience to be able to judge like you do. I wonder what your rock experience entails. Do share.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 09:08pm PT
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Oh com-on now. Yer fer-gettin Coz is old school, no disrespect now, but old school kind-of adheres to the philosophy a wicked right hook to the jaw and it's settled.
Then you have the new school philosophy, some Ghandian type "peace man" blah blah blah, on and on and on, non-violence this and non-violence that, all while killing animals to gratify the tongue.
Keepin it real and unreal ........
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jstan
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 09:11pm PT
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I think many of us feel while the climb itself may/may not be one step backwards any unilateral action to erase it will certainly be two full steps backward. Over the last forty years, any time I was asked, this is what I said. Since what I said was never important, I bring this up only to establish this counsel is entirely independent of the circumstances. Perhaps a universal truth, if you will.
Divad brings up the aversion we all have as regards "confrontation". When we allow a "question" to become personalized it then becomes a "confrontation". It need not. When a question has been voiced, as it has been here, the leading edge of the wave in our minds should simply be a fascination with finding out what the answer will be. Curiosity may have killed the cat but, perhaps, we may be more fortunate.
Divad I see you are in western Massachusetts. We have something in common. My people left a hillside farm near New Marlborough in 1853 and took up residence on another hillside farm in New York. Ah, the march of upward progress.
Deuce4:
Thank you so much for the accurate rendition. Normally I disregard completely any pictures I see. I now know that wall requires steely self control and confidence in one's abilities. What a wonderful place to test oneself.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Apr 13, 2008 - 09:33pm PT
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jstan, I have relatives who owned a farm in Monterey, Mass., near New Marlborough. Spent a lot of time there as a kid.
As a gunkie, I am well aware of your impact there and wish our time there had overlapped.
As for my post, just trying to inject some humor into a serious discussion to keep it on the civil side, much like you.
I guess we do have things in common.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 09:41pm PT
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Divad:
A reunion is planned in the Gunks for September I think. If you think you can get free for a day or so I will try hard to make it. (Long traverse you see.) If you, I, and Goldstone get on something together, despite my whimpering and moaning, it will be something to remember.
Edit:
I double checked Laura Smith's email. It is Oct.11-19. Once I would make it to the east coast I expect I would be there longer. Surely will want to visit all the nocem's I got on a first name basis with in the Adirondaks.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Apr 13, 2008 - 09:54pm PT
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jstan, I'm sure it would be something to remember and I would look forward to it.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 13, 2008 - 10:28pm PT
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Deuce4,
Thanks for posting up your experience and that photo. Wow! "Probably" the first to free climb on the upper wall you say, and I'm pretty sure there's no probably about it. You're just being modest. All my research on the face says you were for sure.
When I read your account of your winter ascent and rescue from the Harding-Rowell South Face early in 1986, it wasn't just your epic close call in that snowstorm, with the avalanches so heavy they popped the bolt supporting one of your portaledges -- that wasn't all that caught my attention.
No, I was equally excited by your coming out of aiders up there to try the free climbing. "I immediately realized," you wrote (I'm quoting from Deuce's website), "that we had just discovered the most awesome free-climbable face in the Valley, and I free-climbed some bathooking sections at 5.10a/b between bolts just to try it out. We were having a great time." (This was during t-shirt weather before the storm hit.)
Now we get your great photo to back it up. Controversy aside, this thread is adding so much depth to the story of the opening of free climbing on the South Face. Within a few short years it jumped from your first tasting it to the FA of Southern Belle -- Coz has just added some nice details to that -- and on to Caylor's disasterous whipper (more details). Thank you all.
(Of course your photo also proves you cheat: Those shoes, the new sticky rubber. Aha! What did the consensus boil down to: a whole number grade easier than in EBs? -- Kidding you here...ok? OK! :)
Let's jump to the end of your post. You ask: Is climbing really all about accessiblity these days?
No, not all about, far from it.
We keep honoring the height of inaccessible, of which Southern Belle is the gold standard.
But we added a choice. Growing Up is a more accessible climb. Still proud, but better protected. That doesn't make it "all about" anything but variety.
Finally there is some variety on the menu. "The most awesome free-climbable face in the Valley" now has a more accessible climb as well as a couple of oy-chingon! super spicy dishes.
Who's hungry?
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moss hog
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 13, 2008 - 10:28pm PT
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It seems that the two ethos brought to debate here are assigned different priorities by different folks. Environmental ethics and climbing style ethics both factor in (one hopes) to the decisions made by a first ascentionist party.
One can adhere to stringent style ethics that may necessitate more severe environmental impact (e.g. through placing bolt ladders or scarring rock). Alternatively, one can sacrifice some style to minimize the environmental impact (e.g. by utilizing acquired knowledge to place fixed protection more efficiently).
It may seem that the best way to maintain allegiance to both of these ideologies would be to place ground up routes with absolutely minimal protection. But then a third consideration must be addressed: how many bolts permanently drilled into a pristine Yosemite landmark can be justified for the recreation of a handful of elite climbers?
I shudder at the thought that any climber (or group thereof) would ever have to justify that sort of needless impact to the public, the Park Service, or anyone who values land preservation over their wee mortal rectitude.
PS: Coz - I would like to threaten you, if the offer stands. Where can I sign up?
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Apr 13, 2008 - 10:33pm PT
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Took my daughter up to Lone Pine this weekend. Camped in Tuttle Creek campground, bouldered in the Alabama Hills, and hiked up to the Stonehouse on the South Face of Lone Pine Peak. What a magical place !!! Around the campfire in the evenings, I read about many of the first ascents in the So Face Lone Pine Peak area by Norman Clyde, Fred Becky, and Bruce Binder. I was really inspired !! I suppose if I saw these guys posting up on this thread I'd be a little more inclined to give a sh#t. If the same kind of route was put up on the South Face of Lone Pine Peak would it attract this kind of attention ??? Why does Yosemite have to be so damn sacred ?????
Cracko
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jstan
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 10:34pm PT
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Moss hog:
I suspect the line is pretty short.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2008 - 11:06pm PT
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I confident the flared tempers are just that and trust in the better angels of all those posting on this thread.
This route couldn't be SO simple. It was a fine weekend in Yosemite. Seems like there's a fair amount of fame-notoriety in doing the second ascent of such a fine line, it would be the first on-sight.
Isn't that plump enough a prize to rate a hike to an alleged fine, fine line? Who's gonna throw down and give us the low down?
Peace
Karl
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moss hog
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 13, 2008 - 11:08pm PT
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Whoa, wait a minute - I never asked if I could FIGHT you! Jeez, now I'm scared too!
I was just charmed by the idea of the prearranged threat you had offered in a previous post. We El Portalians are always searching for novel ways to vent aggression while minimizing violence and hurt feelings.
Though I haven't lived there permanently for some time now, I hope we can all work together to keep El Portal taco night a safe and family-oriented environment.
PS my real name is Amy
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 13, 2008 - 11:29pm PT
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So Amy (Moss Hog)? This was your reply up-thread to Coz.
"PS: Coz - I would like to threaten you, if the offer stands. Where can I sign up?"
Sounds pretty threatening to fight to me.
Can't blame Coz for his reaction.
You aren't his ex gf are you?
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Apr 13, 2008 - 11:43pm PT
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After reading the posts this evening I'm convinced......people get over yourselves !!!! This is nothing short of a Fing Soap Opera with the predictable "drama queens" competing for the Emmy !!! Coz, I don't know you, but be proud of what you have accomplished and Fing move on !!!! This is a no win situation!!
Like I tell my students constantly, the best response is no response. In the end, people will remember this!!!!
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 14, 2008 - 12:04am PT
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"One can adhere to stringent style ethics that may necessitate more severe environmental impact (e.g. through placing bolt ladders or scarring rock)."
This is not the biggest environmental impact, as people have expressed time and time again. The biggest impact comes from extra trails, social, sanctioned, whatever they are, and those come with hand in hand with more climbers.
Climbers flock to burly yet 'safe'* climbs like lambs to the slaughter. I'm not saying burly yet 'safe' climbs shouldn't exist - none of us can say that, for Chrissake, who owns nature? - but isn't that something people should consider when putting climbs and advertising them?
*"Rock Climbing, Ice Climbing and Mountaineering are dangerous and hazardous by their very nature. It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser or user of any climbing equipment to get proper instruction and to act safely and with caution while using this equipment."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2008 - 12:50am PT
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Coz wrote
"Karl, you can not do the first ascent of a rap job or a second ascent. Those guys never did an ascent.
Growing up is not a climb in my book."
Is it only rap bolting that denies a route the status of "climb?" If we are going to play like that a clear list of "Cardinal Sins" that could result in removal would be in order.
Like since Bridwell used constructive scaring to make Freestone a free climb from the beginning, does that keep it from being a "climb" or does "ground up" protect it. What about siege climbing, seems to reduce the adventure into manageable bits doesn't it?
It all seems Taliban to me but ya'll have devoted yourselves to it more than I so your say is important.
Peace
Karl
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moss hog
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 14, 2008 - 01:15am PT
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Domingo wrote "This is not the biggest environmental impact, as people have expressed time and time again. The biggest impact comes from extra trails, social, sanctioned, whatever they are, and those come with hand in hand with more climbers."
And I agree completely; however, my point was tangential to that one.
Consider we are discussing first ascents in a National Park, where visitors are prohibited from taking so much as a pinecone, or leaving so much as an apple core.
Climbers, by some inscrutable clause, are allowed to permanently install visible metal hardware on the very formations the Park originated to protect.
A route with 50 bolts on it that sees two ascents comes out to (let me get my calculator...) 12.5 pieces of permanent metal hardware per visitor.
While I don't argue that those bolts will ruin the majesty of Yosemite Valley for the throngs of visitors or even have any significant impact on the surrounding ecosystem, I do think it is a liberty afforded our relatively unappreciated user group that we should not take lightly.
This luxury will not likely be availed to fisherman (take home 12.5 trout each) or hikers (leave 12.5 pieces of litter behind) anytime in the future.
The application of this for new routes is as follows:
If one is going to permanently alter the geologic formations of a sanctuary because of special license afforded one's user group, how many stand to benefit from this profiteering besides oneself?
PS In response to Werner's questions:
While for the male species, the notion of "threat" is singularly and intimately linked to fighting, for the female species, there are vast and myriad potential variants of "threat". Examples include (but are not limited to): blackmail, child support, slander and sexually transmitted diseases.
I am speaking generally here, of course. I intend none of these for a man I am pretty sure I never even dated.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 14, 2008 - 01:21am PT
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Mein Got! A person who tells it like it is! A lady in this case.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 14, 2008 - 01:24am PT
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Karl,
> Seems like there's a fair amount of fame-notoriety in doing the second ascent of such a fine line, it would be the first on-sight.
I could be wrong, but a careful reading of Doug's article suggests that a continuous ascent of the route may not have been done yet, either:
"Sarah and Sean fire the redpoint of the upper wall on July 28th at 5.11d."
This suggests to me that they may have rapped in to the upper wall and then climbed out free. Or maybe aided through a couple of cruxes on the lower pitches and done it continuously; it's not clear from the description.
Would Sean or Doug care to clarify this?
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Bodyboarder
Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
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Apr 14, 2008 - 02:16am PT
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Is this still going on? I've been checking every hundred posts or so, and there hasnt been anything new since like the 50th post, you guys just keep repeating yourselves.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 14, 2008 - 03:18am PT
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Scott,
I blew my top when I saw that someone hiding behind some nick name, from my own town was going off about chopping. I blew my F#ucking top. I never threatened you personally ever.
Upon breathing and thinking a bit, I responded and said I was sorry. Tried to get back ahold of the real me and calm down. Everyone else responded like a bunch of grown ups and you're now ranting and raving about fighting.
Why in the F#ck do you hate me so much ? As I said before, I would never start some F#cking post up about you or anyone else.
Maybe we should sit down over a couple beers and talk this one out. I'll be in L.A. soon on buisiness and will go out of my way to meet with you if you think we can pull it off without turning into a couple of as#@&%es and beating the F#ck out of each other.
Peace,
Sean.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 14, 2008 - 03:23am PT
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Ben,
Thanks for the possitive response and throwing your name at the end. Again, sorry I turned into an as#@&%e there. I'm on the east coast quite often. Would love to join you for a couple of beers any time.
Same out here. The door's always open at my home.
Peace,
Sean.
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say-no-to-rap-bolting!
Trad climber
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Apr 14, 2008 - 06:40am PT
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hey sean.
I'm from Europe...
A little bit far away but I'm in California from time to time...
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Apr 14, 2008 - 08:19am PT
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Wow! Up to 1390 posts as I write this--(mine is 1391).
1390 AM is KGNU-AM in Denver/Boulder. Or 88.5 FM in Boulder.
Or even better, http://www.kgnu.org on the www.
Take a listen. Democracy NOW! with Amy Goodman, REAL NEWS,
and GREAT, VARIED, NON MSM music, like bluegrass, real country
(as in Hank Williams Sr., the Louvin Brothers, and more, JAZZ,
African roots music, Reggae, and did I say Bluegrass? Oh, there's more, Blues. Take a listen. and best of all, non-commercial, community radio for Boulder and beyond!!!! (But you won't hear them bashing 'Growing Up'. . . bwaaahhhhhhhh!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 14, 2008 - 11:20am PT
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This is the thread that has it all. Just about anybody who has an opinion has posted.
Threats have been leveled, beers have been offered. Land managers have been thought
about, trails, trash, and environmental impacts have been mulled over. Folks have
proposed chopping the route, climbing the route, making variations to the
route. I think somebody even offered to climb the route with the FA party, and
although nobody has yet talked about free soloing the route, only time will tell.
And, only time will tell who gets the last word. We were surprised when the count hit 200,
a celebration was held at 600. Somebody stayed up all night to be crowned the One Thousandth.
But the real prize, who will be the last to post.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Apr 14, 2008 - 11:47am PT
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I keep going back and forth on this FA. On one hand doing a top down FA deprived Sean (and everyone else) the adventure and challenge of doing the route ground up. On the other hand, I feel that, within reason, it is up to the FA team to decide how they want to 'establish' a route, especially in regards to leaving a route of high quality and reasonable protection for the rating.
Ealier someone posted asking how would you feel if 6-8 more routes went in on rappel on the SFHD. And I guess I feel that there should be some balance between bold X-rated routes (that almost never get climbed), and routes that have reasonable protection for their grade (e.g. R rated runouts on climbing a number grade or two below the crux rating). If every climb went in as an X-rated scarefest, and the whole face was almost never climbed because of it, I don't think that's the optimum situation.
Sean, although I don't think it was 'required', why didn't you climb the route ground up, then install additional bolts later on rappel? With the thought that went into the route, I would guess that option came up.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Apr 14, 2008 - 12:42pm PT
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Wow!!
All I can say is HOLY SH#T!!
I think I'll go climbing now...or is that poor style?
Sean Jones,
I love your routes at Shuteye, and if your in North Fork I'll buy you a beer.
-JR
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Apr 14, 2008 - 02:07pm PT
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Deuce your last post says it best.
Sean, Peace-5.13d
Headwall of Growing Up-5.11d
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 14, 2008 - 04:42pm PT
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I'll just say one last thing (hopefully) on this topic, as really, one has to abide by the old Camp 4 adage, "the only thing that matters is what you've done the day before"; therefore, not having climbed hard stuff in the valley for some time, I really don't have much to say about what people should or shouldn't be doing up there.
But I did want to point out that from my time up there, I saw a very featured face. The wall is glacial polished, but it's also water eroded because of it's low angle, so everywhere there are little nubs and dykes protruding from the face. It's not like the Glacier Point Apron which is merely polished, it's really quite featured, much more so than most of Tuolumne's domes.
Notwithstanding the fact that drilling on lead on small stances is a lost art, I would venture to say that one would be hard pressed to find a 30 foot section of rock up there without any sort of stance at all. The trick, of course, is to link the 30 foot sections. The lower part of the wall is steeper, so there might not be as much potential for new lines there, but above the arch, there's potential for 100's of routes, and despite some of the claims that they would all be Cosgrovesque terrifying and runout routes, I suspect that determined climbers might find otherwise. It would require a combination of skill and luck to find the natural lines with stances (but you wouldn't need the luck if you were willing to preinspect on toprope.)
I just wanted to dispel the notion expressed during this debate that the wall doesn't have any more "reasonable" ground-up potential, for the mighty South Face does, it definitely does.
"On matters of style, swim with the current, on matters of principle, stand like a rock" --Thomas Jefferson
(just can't figure if this is a matter of style or principle...)
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Tired Trad Tales
Trad climber
southern cal
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Apr 14, 2008 - 04:49pm PT
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I think Bachar's list of rules (April 11th post) is a good start. However, like any good contract, it should have a defined period of time. So let us add that the ground-up climbers have their way for 30 years. Then, the sport climbers can take over. The clock started ticking in 1977. Looks like you are in the clear Sean, except that you will need to use a French grade for the upper pitches.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 14, 2008 - 05:24pm PT
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Almost...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 14, 2008 - 05:25pm PT
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... there.
1400!
[We were off the front page for a minute...what next?]
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 14, 2008 - 06:41pm PT
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Old news always gets buried.
It's over...until we get the TR of Sean's dinner with Coz.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 14, 2008 - 06:49pm PT
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OK, just one more thing.
I've been thinking about how featured the wall looked in Deuce's old first-ever-free-climbing photo. And then he brought it up in his thread.
The wall over there looks very different from the wall I saw on Growing Up. More featured. Looks more stance drillable too, tho hard to tell from the apparent steepness.
It makes me wonder. Deuce, you mentioned lots of water roughening, and that's what I seem to see in your photo. We had initially tried to follow a lesser water streak -- the one that blanked out -- then moved over to in or near an even fainter one.
Where we were it's a lot shinier, slipperier wall. Especially the bottom part of the upper wall. Up higher, more featured. I'm curious, what part of the upper wall was that photo?
It's a very interesting wall.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 14, 2008 - 06:52pm PT
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I wonder what they will eat and drink? Will they use forks, chopsticks or their dirty hands? Do they like the same style of food?
AH who cares I bet they will have a blast.
B...
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bler
Boulder climber
Alamo, CA
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Apr 14, 2008 - 07:13pm PT
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ethics have changed and always will continue to do so...
same way they changed from the alpine style in the 40's, 50's and 60's to the sport style of the 80's, and now the super protected super hard sport routes and bouldering.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2008 - 07:29pm PT
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BLD wrote
"I wonder what they will eat and drink? Will they use forks, chopsticks or their dirty hands? Do they like the same style of food? "
Old school would be eating with a piton. Perhaps they could go for "Airplane Rule" : no utensils that you could kill the stewardess with.
;-0
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 14, 2008 - 07:35pm PT
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If they eat ground up, does that mean they can only have hamburger?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 14, 2008 - 08:15pm PT
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DR-
If I recall correctly, that photo was the pitch below the Triclops.
By the way, a belated congratulations to you and Sean and whoever else was involved, for the new route. Wish I were still climbing that hard to fire up it! Autobahn once had that classic status for a time (now people are probably sketched from all those crappy 1/4" bolts). I'm sure Growing Up will be a very popular hardman's route, and maybe that really is what it's all about, sharing the experience rather than seeking maximum voltage, as it was during my time in Yosemite.
Ciao-
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 15, 2008 - 05:26am PT
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I was looking for some higher resolution photos of the South Face of Half Dome on the web, and I found several good ones on summitpost.org, in the gallery for Half Dome (507 photos of Half Dome are there at present, with the full resolution files available).
http://www.summitpost.org/object_list.php?parent_id=150378&object_type=3
Here are three 600 x 800 crops (photobucket's limit) of the upper slab, down to as far as 800 reaches. They may be useful for visualizing what it might be like to be a first ascender (past or future) contemplating a new route there. They might show something about the texture differences described by Doug in his post above. The upper parts of the routes Lost Again, Growing Up, South Face, and Southern Belle are all in these photos.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Apr 15, 2008 - 07:20am PT
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I haven't posted since the early hundreds, wow, I should have taken some bets on numbers way earlier...
Cool shots Clint thanks for sharing.
Its been a long time since I felt that close.
Cheers,
DD
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east side underground
Trad climber
crowley ca
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Apr 15, 2008 - 10:23am PT
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doug what happened? Don't you guys have anything better to do? Can't you guys leave one stone unturned? especially one as special as HALF DOME! Climbers are as bad as 4-wheelers.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 15, 2008 - 10:30am PT
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over 2000 no problem. Assuming the second ascent tr get's posted here.
Peace
Karl
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 15, 2008 - 11:06am PT
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Karl - Second ascent? It never had a first "ASCENT".... like coz said.
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Apr 15, 2008 - 11:57am PT
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This is my first post. I have no opinion because i never have been up there...........
Holy COW!!!! those are some Bitchin photos!!!!!
Hey Deuce, You should get in Shape come back to the valley and Fire what route you want up there.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho
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Apr 15, 2008 - 12:15pm PT
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It never had a FA but it'll prolly have a SA. Which will be the FA. How paradoxical.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 15, 2008 - 12:26pm PT
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Oh come on AID is AID especially (I would think) to a free climber of Sean's caliber. You can do dirty AID or you can do clean Aid or clean, smart, calculated Aid (preinspection/rap bolting). It just seems like the end result is better in how the route was left behind. They did an ascent using aid and free climbing. Maybe the aid method they chose was to avoid a lot of dirty aid on the route (like bolt ladders). I don't think its okay to run around and rap bolt all over the place just stabbing bolts everywhere. Like moss hog said up thread "(e.g. by utilizing acquired knowledge to place fixed protection more efficiently)."
Blair..
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Apr 15, 2008 - 12:47pm PT
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20 to 30 feet between bolts on a hard 5.11 slab is pretty sporty. Falling 40 feet on a slab, could have ugly results. So, is Growing up a pussy route???
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 15, 2008 - 01:22pm PT
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Bachar wrote
"Karl - Second ascent? It never had a first "ASCENT".... like coz said."
Well there are levels of "ascent" aren't there. For example, when Coz climbed the upper section of Southern Belle, he jugged past the crux pitches if I understand correctly. Also not as ascent or just another '*' in the footnotes?
Peace
Karl
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 15, 2008 - 01:55pm PT
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YA! and what is this all about?
Something stinks!
Is there somthing the world of climbing should know here? Or is this just somthing to stir it up.
How PURE is the old school?
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
WTF!
Werner wrote:
"Huh?
This is a mind blower. That Deucey document that Bachar authored. I know way too much, much more than the tip of the iceberg that's been revealed here. Much more than I even want to know.
It's scary, and too bad I can't say.
If you all really knew, what's going on.
Maybe on the guys deathbed it'll be all revealed."
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 15, 2008 - 03:23pm PT
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Karl,
> Well there are levels of "ascent" aren't there. For example, when Coz climbed the upper section of Southern Belle, he jugged past the crux pitches if I understand correctly. Also not as ascent or just another '*' in the footnotes?
If you start at the bottom and end at the top, it's an ascent. If you use fixed lines (established from the bottom) like on the FFA of Southern Belle, the qualifier is "sieged" (vs. "continuous"). So I agree there are different levels of ascent. If you rappel in to put in the pro, clean or preinspect, then you no longer started from the bottom. I would say you could still ascend the route, and would be the first person to do it, but the route was not established on ascent, so it does not fit the classic definition of a "first ascent". Guidebook authors usually do not make a distinction between the two these days (partly due to space constraints?), except maybe at Pinnacles and Tuolumne, but they are all called first ascents, just with qualifiers.
I asked earlier if Sean or Doug could tell me if Growing Up has an ascent from bottom to top yet. They didn't respond yet, but that question may have been buried by other posts. It wasn't clear from the article if the upper slab was redpointed by rapping in from above or approached from the lower pitches. I suppose having such a complete ascent is a technicality that may not be of interest to the FA team at some point. Certainly a lot of routes on my "Long Hard and Free" page have been ascended with different styles and different definitions of free climbing. Big long routes like those are challenging in many ways and people can choose their own type of style which will give them some chance of getting up the route and still be quite challenged along the way. On the web page, there is plenty of space to include those details.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 15, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
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All good points Clint.
We know a lot about the style of Sean's ascent but don't know if it's had a continuous ascent yet. Guess Potter had the first continuous ascent of Southern Belle.
Some of the Southern Belle tactics aren't clear to me either, but I should probably go back and see if they have been covered. I know much of the climb was aided before it was freed. Were those pitches top-roped or pre-protected after being aided. This is probably better style than rap-bolting but there's no need for rap-bolting with the luxury of a crack. I mean, if we're really going to judge, and even some say, "remove" based on style and not stone damage, we should see the strengths and flaws in the routes we're holding up as sacred.
Peace
Karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 15, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
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All my long free routes were totally free and pure.....
except the brief moments where my foot accidentally slipped into a sling or my hand got caught in the biner for a moment when I clipped........
There have been climbs when my foot slipped into a sling a number of times....my buddy calls them portable footholds!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 15, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
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I think almost all of Southern Belle was freed on the FA. The only aid section not originally freed I can find from the magazine articles was the start of the 4th pitch - a short tricky section. Maybe some of p5 was aided originally since it is described as a crack where thin pins. And it looks like there was originally a pendulum on p6.
[Edit: see coz's post below - there was lots of aid on the FA to be freed]
The rest if it is 99% slab/face, and they were into making a very bold route (as they compared it with the Bachar-Yerian in the FFA article), so I doubt any pro was added to those slab pitches above p5. It would be nice to see a more complete story of the FA and FFA of the route (maybe one exists and I have not found it).
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Apr 15, 2008 - 05:52pm PT
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Not to deviate from the recent discussions regarding SB but the earlier posts airing differences of opinion and recounting of history remind me of Bob Dole's quote "You don't want to get in a wrestling match with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it."
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 15, 2008 - 06:16pm PT
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Karl - The team could not "ascend" anymore so they hiked to the top and descended it in order to make the ascent they could not make? hmmmm.... a new style of ascent?
The next advancement in free climbing will be "leading on a top-rope"....
Rope companies will soon make invisible ropes (Emperor's New Ropes) so that they won't show up in the photos of climbers doing bold new first ascents on the lead. The standards will soar even further....
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east side underground
Trad climber
crowley ca
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Apr 15, 2008 - 10:18pm PT
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I think we should matrix bolt( one bolt per every 5 sq ft ?) all the major formations in yosemite. Then we could have routes everywhere and you could have fun either climbing the routes from the bottom up or from the top down. We could even have routes that are top down only! It could be the new craze! Any climber could down lead El Cap routes! Also it would eliminate the need for first ascents and the troubling problems of ethics or style.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 16, 2008 - 01:48am PT
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Bachar is full of it.
He's been using Emperors New Ropes© for years.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 16, 2008 - 02:37am PT
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jghedge, I don't follow your assumptions.
If a route is done ground up and bolted from a ground up approach, even though the quality of the bolts is sh#t, that doesn't mean someone can't later go back and upgrade those bolts. Lots of folks do this style. And it has no impact on the style in which the FA/FFA was established.
I could be mising something on timing of when said bolts went in. That would affect the definition of the style dramatically.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 03:53am PT
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jghedge, 'rap bolting' and 'replacing bad bolts after a ground up ascent' are not the same thing. When you rap bolt you have the opportunity to pre-inspect the rock and can plan the climb you want. Going ground up does not allow you to 'preview the route' and as such may result in a completely different route on the same piece of stone that might have been put up on rappel.
The argument about which style produces the best route is probably at the crux of a lot of the discussion going on in this thread. I am not going to rehash it here.
Bruce
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 16, 2008 - 10:03am PT
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Yeah Coz, I'm throwing a nice fat chunk of limbwood on the fire and handing you a cold one.
The details you've dropped are fascinating. But they're just a tease.
BTW, ran across a tidbit of bolt lore to pass on. No, NOT about whether they go in trembling or dangling. Just about quality. I've always felt sketch sbout you guys pounding in ordinary machine bolts. Dirtbag economics, for sure, I get that part. But leading the big-fall runouts on SB off of those? Huevos, man!
So my climber friend who'se a mechanical engineer (like Walt was) comes over. We're drinking Scotch and talking about this thread. He says his professor once shear tested ordianry 1/4-inch wood screws pounded into holes in concrete. They held ~1800 pounds! About the same as a quarter-inch Rawl.
Of course you guys didn't take the big whipper up there. But now I feel better about your chances of surviving it.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 16, 2008 - 11:51am PT
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Regarding those machine head bolts. Jardine kinda started with that idea.
He used grade 8 machine bolts as anchors. On the Crimson Cringe at the start of the undercling there were 2 of those bolts that Bachar eventually chopped.
Jardine before using these bolts did some crude tests by throwing off a huge weight onto the bolts and shock loading them.
The idea caught on as a cheap alternative to the rawl 1/4 inch bolt.
As far as Coz and Shultz being poor back then is 100% spot on correct. We were all pretty damn poor as far as money goes.
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 16, 2008 - 12:13pm PT
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Joe Hedge said: the fact that Schultzie rapped down SB and replaced the bolts after the FFA, which seems to me is kind of a tacit admission that the level of quality of work that needs to be done to establish a route like that can't really be done as part of a ground-up ascent, and that you can either focus on the ethical side and put in less-than-optimal bolts, or focus on the quality-of-hardware side and rap bolt. The fact that SB eventually was rap-bolted undercuts the argument that ground-up is somehow the style that needs to be adhered to and respected..
So Joe, are you now saying they did NOT get the FFA per Bachar and Scott Cosgroves assertions that rapping down first invalidates the ascent?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 01:21pm PT
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I read Bisharat's piece and have to say that he certainly did not take the time to read and nor try to understand the posts on this topic. Too bad, he missed one of the best climbing threads he has never read.
I took particluar offense to the following statement, "all the gumbies who get to turn themselves into the climbers they've always wanted to be--fearless, hardcore, moralist, old school, new school, whatever."
One of the things I really like about SuperTopo is that people are pretty darn honest about their accomplishments and the opinions of those who have accomplished the most seem to be given more weight in discussions because of their credibility.
Bruce
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bler
Boulder climber
Alamo, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
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Andrew Bisharat's article is retarded.. to write an article on a thread he admittantly never read and then to post his opinion on R&I..
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 01:35pm PT
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I thought Bisharat's piece was a breath of fresh air!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 16, 2008 - 01:56pm PT
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I thought it was foolishness incarnate. Here's the comment I left
"You grow up Andrew. How dare you pose as a journalist when you first admit you didn't even pay attention to the thread. The community discussing those issues included the first ascent party of Growing Up and the many long time members of the Yosemite climb community, including key players on "Southern Belle"
We used to solve those disputes with chopping bolts and fist fights. Now you claim techology is a worse solution for engaging dialog?
50 years from now, if society hasn't collapsed, future generations of climbers will read that thread and have an idea about how and why the ethics of the time developed and evolved.
I support the Growing Up team and I support those offended by it offering their objections.
I also might add that the internet, where your own editorial is posted ironically, is the last bastion of free expression. Image how much more tainted our knowledge of the evils of the Iraq war would be if we had to rely on mainstream media for our information?
Peace
Baba"
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Apr 16, 2008 - 02:04pm PT
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I find it interesting that while blogging about a discussion he has not followed he rags on those who comment on a route they have not done. And then there is this gem:
"Of course, I have an opinion--that it frustrates me when old-school climbers lose their minds any time anyone climbs in a different style than they did a hundred years ago--but I don't think that my opinion is important enough to post anonymously in a forum."
Then don't post anonymously. Duh. And I don't see any "old schoolers" losing their minds over Alex Honnold's recent climbs although they are certainly in a style not done 100 years ago. It is not about the style being different.
And this one:
" ...bash sport climbers, glorify the 5.9s of 20 years ago, and so on."
Who's bashing sport climbers? How about the 5.12s of 20 years ago? (You know - the one's that would be 5.13 if they went up today..)
Obviously the guy has no clue who some of the posters on this thread are...
edit: Well said, Karl.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Apr 16, 2008 - 02:07pm PT
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Posted by phil_broscovak - 12:04:02 pm | Delete post
Here is my post to Andrew B;
I whole heartedly agree with Karl Baba. Andrew you do a disservice by making generalized assumptions about a thread you have not fully read. On going dialogue (or in this case blogalogue) Is a very positive thing. Most posters to the Growing Up thread would agree it has been a lively, spirited and valuable exchange. Preferable in every way to the fisticuffs and bolt wars of the past. For you to represent this dialogue as an excercise of spew by newbie wanna bees and ancient has beens is sad and absurd. Go back and read it all before you opine again. Is it possible that you are worried that more people are turning to the interactive blogosphere for their information rather than paying for the canned opinions of the commercially driven mags? Are you afraid for your own position and thus compelled to spew too?
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 02:11pm PT
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Not a very well written piece of Op-Ed at that.
Bisharat does miss the key to this 1444 post thread - nobody has chopped Growing Up. Yos had its wave of grid bolting in the early 90's. That came and went. Years later this new route shows up. People talk it over on the web - no punch outs, not chopped bolts.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 16, 2008 - 02:21pm PT
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"Yos had its wave of grid bolting in the early 90's."
It did?
One of the things I really like about SuperTopo is that people are pretty darn honest about their accomplishments and the opinions of those who have accomplished the most seem to be given more weight in discussions because of their credibility.
Nice one Bruce.
BTW, I also commented on the R&I editorial, pretty much the same as stated above: How can somebody comment on content they admit to never reading? Silly...
One other point--the one thing this here thread has caused me to do is to want to go and check out that face. I'm going crazy to get up there.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 16, 2008 - 02:31pm PT
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Andrew, your opinion is squat compared to the vast well of experience that has posted on this thread. You're so connected to reality and so unwilling to participate in this "unreal" discussion that you post up on R&I where you get to have your soapbox all to yourself. Wow, so impressive.
You're not qualified to wash the jock straps of many who have posted on this thread. Amen.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 16, 2008 - 03:06pm PT
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I've read here how some folks will not climb Growing Up because they don't
endorse the style in which it was set. Or perhaps they'll do the first
crack pitches, then rap off.
I'm wondering, how many of you have not done a route simply because of the
style in which it was created? I mean, flat-out not even stepped on the
stone. Have you done this once, or is it your personal ethic to never
do routes that weren't put up in an acceptable style?
The only time I might have considered the style when choosing a route is
if somebody rap-bolted an X route, which is just a darn silly thing to do.
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bler
Boulder climber
Alamo, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 03:12pm PT
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discussions and arguments hopefully lead to resolution of an issue. witch is what posts like these are about, expressing your opinion and understanding others then reaching some middle ground.
i unfortunately have no real ground to make statements on this issue, but there are plenty of people here with many many years of experience with this that DO have grounds to discuss their position as well as the people who are immediately involved to state theirs.
it sure is fun reading this thread being interested in climbing ethics. :)
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hemp22
climber
PDX
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Apr 16, 2008 - 04:12pm PT
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k-man wrote: " how many of you have not done a route simply because of the style in which it was created? "
I'll give one data point from the point-of-view of a relatively young/new climber: Personally, I never have, and probably never will, choose whether or not to climb a route based solely on the style that was used to establish it. I could write a much longer dissertation on why I feel that way....but not sure it'd be worth anyone taking the time to read it.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Apr 16, 2008 - 04:48pm PT
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I don't decide whether or not to try a route based simply on how it was first done. But, I do get something extra out of doing routes which have a proud history. I love climbing up to some wicked thin stance and imagining what so and so went through to get a bolt drilled there, or doing a runout (which could have been bolted from above) and getting to re live the first person's experience to some degree because they chose to do it as a lead.
So in an area where the ethics have been traditional for a time, I'll probably choose routes which have that as a background for the most part because of the added depth of experience that comes from seeing that fa unfold as I do the climb.
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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Apr 16, 2008 - 05:04pm PT
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* bump *
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Eddie
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Apr 16, 2008 - 05:23pm PT
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Another data point.
Even if I cared what style the route was done in (in terms of me choosing to climb it or not), that would be secondary in importance to me in terms of whether the route seemed
fun/exciting/adventurous (or whatever you are looking for).
I won't climb a crappy climb just because the first ascent team had an epic on it but continued in good style and managed to finish it. But I WILL climb a fun/adventurous climb that was put up in poor style. Or even poor ethics...
It seems like avoiding a fun climb to make a point about style is only punishing yourself. I don't think the FA people will be offended if you don't climb it.
I recognize that the importance and definition of popularity is another issue, I'm just responding the question laid forth a few posts ago.
cheers.
Pete
PS edit:
Ethics vs style question. If I avoid climbing a route because it was put up in bad style, is that choice made based on my style or ethics? As in, does it inherently transform a style issue into an ethics one (i.e. "I'm not climbing it because I need to uphold my ethics')? Or is that 'principle'...
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 05:32pm PT
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Yos grid bolting - all that "Energizer", "Killer Pillar", Chapel Wall clip-up stuff that went in - wasn't that all early 90's? I assume it was on rap, possibly power drill.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 16, 2008 - 05:52pm PT
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I believe "Punch Line" on Arch was one of the first rap bolted lines in Yosemite (at least, one of the first under the guise of the "new, modern, 'improved' style/ethic" of climbing).
The name reflects an infamous event. I think the route went up in the late 80's actually.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Apr 16, 2008 - 06:49pm PT
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"I'm wondering, how many of you have not done a route simply because of the style in which it was created? I mean, flat-out not even stepped on the stone. Have you done this once, or is it your personal ethic to never do routes that weren't put up in an acceptable style?"
That is the ONLY reason I never went and repeated any Skinner routes. Had nothing to do with the ratings . . .
Seriously, can't say that I have ever parsed my route choices by that criteria. I might get on a route if the route is attractive, and within my abilities, and I have time, and a partner, and enough sun, and etc etc. The style of the FA is not relevant to me, unless the FA was forced (could either be on rap OR on lead/hooks) and the bolt placements do not coincide with natural clipping stances.
And yeah, that R&I guy dissed this thread and missed the point, no doubt. Kids these days don't like stuff that's "thinky" and "wordy," and this thread is both!
edit to add: forget about the R&I article, or risk bloating this thread beyond comprehension. Even at 1,400 it's manageable (!), although it's about due for a summary.
Bill
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:09pm PT
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I didn't do Bachar-Yerian because of the style. If that Bachar guy had rap bolted and put in shorter runouts, I'd have definitely got on it. Looks like the climbing is really good :-)
On a more serious note, the most impressive thing about this whole almost 1500 post thread is how civil it has been, how little trolling there's been, and how good the discussion has been. Even if I haven't agreed with everyone, I think I still respect everyone, and that's sometimes the best outcome you can hope for.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:30pm PT
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Well, in the same article of Rock and Ice that had Doug's article, the R&I gear guru spent several paragraphs ranting about why it's perfectly okay to get lowered through fixed anchors while sport climbing, and that people shouldn't give a sh#t about it and anyone who thinks it's a problem is kind of an idiot and bla bla bla.
It's not the first time someone there's gotten self-righteous or punkassed.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:39pm PT
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"paid some attention to the ongoing thread about the South Face of Half Dome on the Supertopo forum, but not much. Reading 1,400 posts' worth of inflammatory and ungrammatical climbing writing is a lot to ask of any person, even me, who technically has to do just that for a living."
Got balls, Andrew? Jesus Christ.
If you don't know what I'm talking about--and most people never do--
Self-deprecate much?
.... Their opinions were expressed through all of the dialects of the modern, impersonal and misspelled language of today's Internet.
I'm no big deal climber here, but I am a writer and editor, and I really didn't notice a whole lot of misspellings. A few, but no big deal for the forum format. Poor Andrew, though, no patience for a few typos, but plenty of hubris to rub one out over the hot issue du jour.
Normally, I don't think it's worth taking what people write on the Web seriously--
pfffffft.
but the sheer number of people who have weighed in on this issue
Not to mention their caliber? Good God. Hubris, thy name is Bisharat.
makes it a relevant one to discuss in this week's eBlast.
The millions of fans of "eBlast" would expect no less, certainly.
Sorry, but this one is not going to be funny.
On the contrary.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:41pm PT
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The following is a verbatim copy of bluering's link.
"GROW UP
THE TNB EBLAST ROUND 56
04.15.08
I've paid some attention to the ongoing thread about the South Face of Half Dome on the Supertopo forum, but not much. Reading 1,400 posts' worth of inflammatory and ungrammatical climbing writing is a lot to ask of any person, even me, who technically has to do just that for a living.
If you don't know what I'm talking about--and most people never do--here's the basic gist: A long, great-looking route, first featured in an exclusive Rock and Ice article, was established partly on lead with some rap bolting last year. Due to the history of the face, this caused some people to become upset. Their opinions were expressed through all of the dialects of the modern, impersonal and misspelled language of today's Internet.
Normally, I don't think it's worth taking what people write on the Web seriously--but the sheer number of people who have weighed in on this issue makes it a relevant one to discuss in this week's eBlast. Sorry, but this one is not going to be funny.
Of course, I have an opinion--that it frustrates me when old-school climbers lose their minds any time anyone climbs in a different style than they did a hundred years ago--but I don't think that my opinion is important enough to post anonymously in a forum.
What's interesting to me isn't this route or its ethical and stylistic issues. This type of debate has been around since the day man decided to go up something with anything other than his loincloth to cover up the him-hang. What is interesting, however, is how the new medium has become influential to the dialogue.
The Internet has turned climbing into an abstract concept. Any time you remove yourself from the reality of a situation, and then try to explain it using cookie-cutter dogma and principles that were picked up from reading enough forum posts, I believe that the soul becomes denigrated.
How many people on the Internet spray about the importance of one climbing style while putting the other one down, which they refuse to even try because it goes against their "ethics"?
The Internet is a place that climbers use to create a cult of personalities, or something like that. For example, if you like the idea of identifying yourself as "old school" and "traditional," you don't have to actually do any old school, traditional climbing--you just have to post enough good catch phrases: bash sport climbers, glorify the 5.9s of 20 years ago, and so on. You know the drill. The reason the Half Dome South Face forum is over 1,400 posts long has NOTHING to do with South Face and everything to do with self-creating opportunities it presents all the gumbies who get to turn themselves into the climbers they've always wanted to be--fearless, hardcore, moralist, old school, new school, whatever.
The point is, and this is what really bothers me, is how sanitized our lives have become. We are perpetually distancing ourselves from reality through technology. I don't care about the Supertopo thread, but it does make me sad. It's proof of how packaged up, or reduced, our sport becomes when you have 1,400 posts' worth of probably decent climbers who are preoccupied with sitting at home and debating abstract concepts, and pretending that they actually abide by the ethics they espouse, instead discovering and enjoying the experience of climbing with open minds.
This sanitization of reality is all around us, too. "Operation Freedom" somehow makes it sound like something other than mass murder, and throwing around terms like "rap bolting" (or whatever) on Supertopo makes it sound like something akin to mass murder! The Internet allows us to take a step back from what is really going on. Would we still be in Iraq if each one of us had to go shoot bullets at people, and would we still be complaining about this one route on Half Dome if we were putting up our own routes using our own preferred style of climbing? Or, better yet, climbing the route in question and enjoying a over a thousand feet of perfect granite?
Of course, it's easier to put Growing Up down than actually go up the route ... or grow up, in general. "
End of quote
I believe this text was placed on the internet by its author. The author apparently is unaware of the importance of including all opinions in an important discussion such as this. So we have taken the step of including it verbatim.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:45pm PT
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Obvious Pinko.....
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bler
Boulder climber
Alamo, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:51pm PT
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haha my favorite quote :
"Of course, it's easier to put Growing Up down than actually go up the route ... or grow up, in general. "
of cource its easier to sit back and spew out to people who are NOT involved with the conversation rather then growing up and joining the conversation at hand to make your point.
ok, ok.. haha I'll stop now, its just too easy to rip into this article.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:52pm PT
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Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think Bisharat is right on in his opinion of this awesome and clearly very important thread. I'll also go so far as to suggest that some of you aren't really getting what he has to say. I'm going to distill it down to a couple lines I think are the most relevant:
"What's interesting to me isn't this route or its ethical and stylistic issues... What is interesting, however, is how the new medium has become influential to the dialogue.
The Internet has turned climbing into an abstract concept.
We are perpetually distancing ourselves from reality through technology."
He's not even talking about the route. And I think he makes a very legitimate point.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Apr 16, 2008 - 07:58pm PT
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A legitimate point, but hardly an original or even very interesting one. Lame is what it is.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
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Well, for a lame point it sure pricked some egos on here!
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 16, 2008 - 08:06pm PT
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I think thats complete and utter bs. I feal more connected to climbing than ever, because I'm in touch with so many more climbers than I ever was when I started climbing.
If all I did was read this stuff and live vicareously, then it would be bunk, but I'm out climbing a few times a week.
I think the folks that don't get it are just too young to have much of a perspective on life, people, personal interactions, and climbing.
For those of us who have actually thought about this issue vs. just shooting barbs at others, it has been a great thread.
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bler
Boulder climber
Alamo, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 08:08pm PT
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"new medium"
ughh, I've been using the Internet since 90' and its hardly a new medium... or is the point that this 'new medium' has never been applied to discussions in climbing, try reading rec.climbing this medium has been around a looong time and applied to many different sports, hobbies and professions.
there may be a valid point in that it is difficult to have a discussion stay on topic or even remain on point in these forums, but with all the different styles, ethics and beliefs without having a mediator it is just the way it is..
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jstan
climber
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Apr 16, 2008 - 08:20pm PT
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Help me out here. If a person refuses to accept internet technology because it isolates one from reality, would that person not also have similar strong feelings against rap bolting? I can't quite remember but I have the recollection running out a hundred feet can involve quite a close connection with reality. What am I missing?
Perhaps I just don't know the vernacular. "Rap" means the climber is on a top rope or rappel, right? And a bolt is one of those things you modify the rock by drilling a hole into it, right?
Up to now I have not said much one way or the other about "style" issues and I am not saying anything here either. I just can't make any sense out of the behavior behind this contribution.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 16, 2008 - 08:35pm PT
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pfffffft.
Couldn't have said it better. Perfect.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 16, 2008 - 09:31pm PT
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Who cares what some guy said in a magazine.
He said it to make himself look good.
Anybody can do the same.
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Apr 16, 2008 - 09:40pm PT
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Touche' Werner.
I just wish I'd written it.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 16, 2008 - 09:51pm PT
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Yos grid bolting - all that "Energizer", "Killer Pillar", Chapel Wall clip-up stuff that went in - wasn't that all early 90's? I assume it was on rap, possibly power drill.
I wouldn't assume all this went in top down.
There was a brief period when folks (including the authorities) didn't realize
that power-drilling was illegal under the Wilderness Act. During this time,
folks did put in routes ground up, using power drills.
It is startling what can be stanced with a power drill. Golden Years was "set"
with a total of 5 A0 points, including all belays.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 16, 2008 - 10:17pm PT
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Thanks guys. An eastern climbing friend once in awhile would complain that his brain was leaking out of his ears. Over the years i am pretty sure that has happened to me. I just needed to know whether or not I was having another such incident right here.
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abisharat
climber
CO
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Apr 16, 2008 - 10:33pm PT
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Hi
I'm sorry that many of you felt like my eBlast denigrated this website and the type of dialogue that is obviously important to your self-worth, as either climbers or people who invest a lot of time in this website. I'm glad that you have found something to care about--in this case, debating the pros and cons of this route on Half Dome--and I certainly know how important it is to have a raison d'etre and place to get off a few times a week, if not more, in order to feel like you are contributing to something greater than yourself. I do the same thing with my weekly "column" e-mail ... and I certainly don't presume to be above the fray in terms of this type of conversation--you should see how misspelled, and often poorly thought-out my writing is on the regular. In fact, that's exactly what you see ...
Still, I stand by what I wrote, and I don't apologize for it. As someone has already noted above, the eBlast intended to use this forum as an example to tackle a larger issue about how removed we are from reality. It's something I feel strongly about, and I don't take it back--even if everyone here thinks it's "retarded," unoriginal or wrong.
I think climbing is the opposite of all of this stuff here, so why is this such a pre-occupation? Climbing is real, and when you do it and enjoy it, there's no bullsh#t--even if you suck (like me) or rap bolt or climb onsight ground up free solo. The trick is to find your own path and find something you enjoy--there's plenty of rock, plenty to aspire to, and plenty of styles to climb in and have fun with. We all know this, but the divide between what we say through the convenience of the Internet--and the reasons we say those things as well--and the way that we act in real life is large. Like I said in the eBlast, this divide reveals itself in many ways--I used the political rhetoric of the current administration as an example, but I think it's much more vast that that.
Everything seems so sanitized--through legislation, lawyers, fees, packaging (of food), processing, and the Internet, especially climbing forums. My point and opinion is that this packaging up of reality destroys the soul--the personal one and the soul of our sport. Don't agree with me? I respectfully don't care.
In climbing, we talk so frequently about "soul" ... soul climbers, the soul sport, the climbing lifestyle ... but what does that really mean? I would argue that no one here would include "packaging climbing into an abstract concept to debate on the internet" as one of the primary reasons they climb. If they do, then I guess I am more out of touch than I though.
But I don't think I am. I presume to be in sync with the pulse of the sport--just like everyone else here does--because I get out to the crags and try my hardest at every chance I can get. And it's fun.
In any case, I agree that it's good and useful to talk about different styles of climbing--the merits of one style versus the other--and if this medium is the best way to do that, so be it. I love this sport specifically because of how varied it is--how not every route you get on is the same, some are spicy, some are safe, etc. It's awesome. There's a lot of rock out there to climb on, and a lot of opportunities to find happiness by interacting with a very raw reality: vertical rock. My opinion is that if you explore that without preconceptions, judgements and ideas of what's "right" and "wrong," then climbers would be a lot happier ... but they'd also have a lot less to bitch about online. Or, whatever you want to call it: "discuss" deeply by typing keys linked to a vast virtual web of information that is instantaneously updated through no effort of the person whatsoever.
Anyway, that's the only comment I can bring myself to write. I am honestly flattered that you have taken what I wrote seriously. Thanx for reading. Please subscribe to RI, too. There's occasionally cool stuff in there.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 16, 2008 - 10:41pm PT
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I just read your post, and being a soul-less, lifeless internet climber, I feel the need to make a comment about your wrap-up:
"My opinion is that if you explore that without preconceptions, judgements and ideas of what's "right" and "wrong," then climbers would be a lot happier..."
Pretty much everything would be easier for me if I ignored a societal moral compass. While ditching said compass and exploring is an interesting idea (one covered extensively in popular film, writing, etc.), I don't think it's appealing in practice.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 16, 2008 - 10:55pm PT
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So Andrew
You said: "I think climbing is the opposite of all of this stuff here, so why is this such a pre-occupation? Climbing is real,....."
So? You belive what's going on in your mind is unreal?
Because that's what's going on here and it's real too.
Otherwise, when you are physically climbing you use your soul to communicate to your mind which communicates to your brain which communicates to your body which then moves to be able to climb.
So the process here is real too in the thinking and writing.
It's real too.
So what's unreal then ......?
Monkeys don't read or write books. Are you calling you and me a monkey?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 16, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
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Andrew,
You have simply GOT to watch out for those typos!!
Gee, do you want your stuff to be unreadable?
Last time I checked the word "thought" had a T on the back end of it. It's a good thing there's a little edit button you can use to clean up after yourself.
I think almost all of us prefer the reality of climbing to working the web, but nobody climbs 24-7. We have jobs, homes, kids, computers and sometimes it rains, blows, snows and all of the above. So we prefer talking about climbing to cleaning the basement...
And yes, the manner in which climbs on Half Dome and other places are established is a matter of some importance. As a climber you should understand this.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 16, 2008 - 11:48pm PT
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Andy:
In the posts above I hope I explained clearly one of the problems I had with your eblast. I know I try hard when I state what I take to be a guiding principle, to make sure the other things I have said plus even the things I have done – are logically consistent. While I don’t always succeed, I always try. I found the things you were saying to be logically inconsistent. At least this member of your audience has been left entirely adrift and unsure of what you were trying to do. Perhaps you could expand on the point?
Early in your summary above another set of words seized hold of me as soon as I saw them.
“……and the type of dialogue that is obviously important to your self-worth….”
The implication being that the participants on this website intend their self-worth to be bouyed by that participation.
In the Lincoln Douglas debates Lincoln took issue with Douglas’s assertion that “Lincoln intended to destroy slavery.” Lincoln replied by saying, “When someone tells you my intention, they tell you something they cannot know.” So I have to ask, what is it that proved to you the ST participants’s need for self-worth caused them to take part?
If you have in fact object proof of this connection you will have made an advance that will loom large in human history. Can you share this with us?
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Apr 16, 2008 - 11:50pm PT
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Geez, talk about no soul!
No wonder I don't read R&I.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 17, 2008 - 12:21am PT
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Coz:
I get your point. Having said that, I owe it to you to explain why I think this may not be a digression at all.
Discussions in which people sketch out their ideas and opinions very carefully have a much higher chance of success than one gets when care is lacking. When carefully drawn, everyone can look at two expressions and see where two people are in agreement and where they are not. It is the difference between two people talking "at" each other and talking "to" each other. Huge difference.
In this case, for the life of me, I can't figure out what Andy really means to say.
EDIT:
OK. IMO wanking or non-wanking is irrelevant and totally unimportant. What is the larger issue?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 12:30am PT
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I think he's saying that we're wankers. And it's a microcosm of a larger problem.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 17, 2008 - 12:34am PT
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"it's a microcosm of a larger problem"
In a nutshell that would be true.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 17, 2008 - 12:45am PT
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You guys are killing me! That's what I have been saying. But what is the larger problem???????
Within minutes the reply I drew Coz may be proven correct! What an accident.
But what is the larger problem?
Some of you may have wondered why I was happy not to discuss "style" and "ethics" all this while. IMO they are not the problem at all.
Begin Locker space.
End Locker space.
Doubtless there are a lot of sharp cookies out there who have known all along what is happening here. I just figured it out.
Several hundred years before Christ a guy was saying something like...people learn truth through asking questions......
It came to be called "A Socratic Dialog".
Those Greeks were so bloody smart!
I repeat. What is the larger problem?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 12:53am PT
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It is pretty clear to me from reading Andrew Bisharat's recent post here on SuperTopo that he has no clue about SuperTopo. He may be correct about certain climbing-related websites that seem to have lots of talk about climbing, but nobody seems to be climbing anything. However, here on SuperTopo, the majority of the posters are very actively climbing and some at a very high standard.
I think what Andrew Bishart fails to understand that for a lot of people who post on SuperTopo, climbing isn't just "fun", it is a way of life. Many of us here spent years living in Yosemite. We didn't just walk out of a climbing gym, buy a rack of quickdraws and go looking for a bunch of closely-spaced bolts.
Because we see climbing as a lifestyle and at the core of who we are we hold our beliefs quite strongly and when we feel a need to offer an opinion, we do so. I am disappointed that Andrew Bishart appears to have taken very little time, if any, to really understand what SuperTopo is all about. He just lumped SuperTopo in with all the other climbing websites and that was a huge mistake.
Too bad Andrew Bishart probably won't ever take the time to understand SuperTopo.com. A good journalist would do exactly that.
Bruce
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Apr 17, 2008 - 12:54am PT
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abisharat: "Everything seems so sanitized... especially climbing forums.
What planet are you from? You don't read supertopo much do you?
"Please subscribe to RI, too. There's occasionally cool stuff in there."
RI? Long, long ago there used to be good climbing mag with that name.
bhilden: "Too bad Andrew Bishart probably won't ever take the time to understand SuperTopo.com. A good journalist would do exactly that.
I think you are mistaking Andrew for a good journalist. His writing is one of the better examples of why I don't read his mag.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:16am PT
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Dingus:
You very eloquently described why I am here. If you believe my being here is the problem, that's OK. It is not impossible that I am a problem.
Seems to me a place where everyone can stand up and speak their piece on a level playing field - is a solution. Not a problem.
But you raise an interesting concept. Problems and solutions are one and the same. Hmmmm?
Two sides of a coin? Or really the same thing? This is going to give me a headache. How do you determine whether two things are the same?
OUCH! Help us. Please.
Ohmigod! It is getting worse. You don't have two objects sitting in front of you each labelled as to whether it is problem or solution. You have one object in front of you. And you are UNCERTAIN as to whether it is problem or solution!!!!!!!!
Mungeclimber:
I will thank you to keep your fuT^@#$&(^%!@# wiseass*&&^%*%^$comments to yourself.
Edit^2
I'll be honest. I never was very good at C4 etiquette, so I will just guess here.
Kevin:
Bugger off old sod!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:17am PT
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what happened to good old name calling and ethical knock down drag outs in the early posts?
bunch of philosophy professors on this site.
;)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:48am PT
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Dingus said it best, I will just second it in a long winded way...
The SuperTopo Forum is a dialog among climbers. It posses all of the foibles of that community including, as Russ noted, bad spelling and grammar. However, there is real communication going on, and the Forum builds the community and extends it beyond the physical, geographic boundaries of any particular climbing area. This happens in ways that are unimaginable to our old community, which often received news through the print media, a media that does not offer the same ability to dialog.
The "Vedauwoo Boogaloo" of last summer was an example of the power of the Forum. It began as a somewhat distended idea, actually a suggestion, and "self-organized" into a meeting of climbers from all around the west, who converged on Vedauwoo to climb and talk and be together. It was glorious, it was fun, it was real and it was climbing (I still have scars to prove it!). I don't see how that could happen without the SuperTopo Forum...
I have met outstanding climbers who I only read about in the magazines 20 and 30 years ago, full of enthusiasm, encouragement, advice and wisdom about any number of topics... who are people I am glad to know independent of climbing. It's not that I am some socially backwards person who doesn't get out... the Forum is a meeting place unlike anything before.
I have met outstanding climbers who are largely unknown to the magazines, are intentionally out of the "lime light" of climbing celebrity but are doing amazing routes... I knew of Sean Jones and his route production long before I read about it in Rock and Ice,
"hey Eric, who's line is that?"...
"oh, that's a Sean Jones route, he has a good eye for a line, and he seems to know all the obscure cliffs too"
I knew about him by being out there climbing. I don't need Rock and Ice to tell me it's happening, I don't need it to tell me whether or not it's great, I can do it myself... by being out there. And I can run into Sean Jones here probably easier than in the Valley because when we're there, we're climbing.
On a business trip to St. Louis last week I spent a couple of dinners in engaging conversation with a STForum poster, we talked about lots of things, we talked about climbing, and climbing together, in the Valley, in Colorado... months ago I was in Vancouver for business and had a great dinner and discussion with another... it's great to be able to run into people all around the country, around the world, who are here.
To me, climbing is not just what I feel about it, but how that personal experience is part of a larger community, something larger than myself. It matters to me what is happening in that community, it matters to me what happens on the SFHD... it is important. I don't need a magazine to frame the question for me and select the responses and opine on behalf of the community.
Editors, we don't need no stinkin' editors here on STForum... and we do fine by ourselves.
Magazines play an important role, but commercial pressure has corrupted the magazines I recall from my youth. I'm an old fogey, probably, but the original Climbing and certainly Mountain were exciting and fresh and significant publications. Alpinist is the contemporary mag comparable to those... but the new Climbing and that one time "bad boy" Rock and Ice are hardly worth subscribing to anymore. They have become irrelevant as their audience has found a better way to communicate what is happening in climbing.
That's what's happening here...
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Ragz
climber
Tartarus, black hole of the internet
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:48am PT
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I've stayed out of this, but I have read everything. I'm only now weighing in because abisharat decided to poke his head in and draw conclusions for which he has he has no clue.
I'm sorry that many of you felt like my eBlast denigrated this website and the type of dialogue that is obviously important to your self-worth
Sounds a little condescending Andy boy.
This one really gets me-
As someone has already noted above, the eBlast intended to use this forum as an example to tackle a larger issue about how removed we are from reality
Your presumptuous as well. So you have some sense of reality that evades the rest of us? Please do not presume to speak for anybody but yourself. In fact, considering the dialogue of some posts around here, I would suggest that supertopians are more in touch "what's real" than most (we have exceptions). The only abstracts here are your preposterous suggestions. Your attempts at some quasi intellectual analysis of climbing and reality, using ST as your backdrop, is pretty weak.
Carry on,
P.S.
This is as close to a campfire in camp 4 as I'll get for a while. Wow, I sure am removed from reality.
I know, I'll light my laptop on fire!!!!
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:56am PT
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1496
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:56am PT
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1497
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:56am PT
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1498
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:57am PT
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1499
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:57am PT
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bingo!
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:57am PT
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couple extra
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:57am PT
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Sorry bretheren that I haven't been able to keep up with the days slander but it still floors me.
Cosgrove, John Bachar and and a host of others with Cred debate Doug Robinson, Sean Jones and a host of others with Cred over Yosemite Ethics and Rock and Ice chimes in to inform us that its pathetic and ain't news! Way too many people to credit but Andy obviously has no clue who is talking about.
Career theatening Gaff Idiot stick!
If reading and writing about climbing is so off the mark, as Andy implies, maybe he should consider a new line or work?
Peace
karl
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:58am PT
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for good measure
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Apr 17, 2008 - 02:03am PT
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Matt, fake and artificially bloated numbers are just like... fake.... your're stick clipping it dude.
Mildly on topic: R and I its puppets are so Rob Halford. No wonder the mags are wasting away from a steady diet of anemic worker bees, bereft of original ideas and as clueless as a baby still covered in sticky womb sauce.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 17, 2008 - 02:12am PT
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russ-
i prefer to think of it as having pre-inspected it
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 17, 2008 - 02:35am PT
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Somewhere back about post #27, someone repeated the quote from John Salathe: "Vy can't ve chust climb?" [Misspellings intentional.] To some extent, Andrew's blog restates that, at somewhat greater length. Which is fine, as far as it goes. The point of the exercise (if there is any) is to climb.
Still, as we all used to say to our mothers "He started it". Andrew is the Senior Editor of Rock & Ice. I'm not sure how that differs from the Editor-in-Chief, the Editor, or the Exclusive Editor, but R&I has them, too. Andrew, or at least the editors, published an eloquent and well illustrated essay on a new climb on Half Dome, an iconic hill in an iconic ditch, written by someone with a lot of history and influence in our community. (I devoured it.) Having thrown the stone, he (and those who created the route) can't complain if it caused ripples. Whether they were anticipated is another question.
As the article was published in Rock & Ice, there might have been some symmetry had the subsequent debate occurred on its forum. (It might also have generated visits = revenue.) The world doesn't work in such a tidy manner, and it happened on SuperTopo instead. Having read all 1,489 + posts, and contributed a few of them, I'd say that there's been a healthy and for the most part civil discussion. It was almost inevitable that it would happen here, and in retrospect, it's only surprising that it took so long before it happened. The ST discussion may not have come up with any solutions, but it may at least have helped define and analyze the situation, and inform whatever happens next. It also provides some context and perspective about how we got where we are, and where we might go.
I'm not sure how familiar Andrew is with the ST community. Not just who it is that is involved, and their history, but also that we are a community. Bearing in mind that 80% or more (?) of us are "lurkers", or only post intermittently. Many of us have shared pasts and experiences, and then there's all the things we now do together (SushiFests, FaceLift, the recent JTree golden oldies rendezvous...) that build on that. ST reinforces and facilitates the linkages, and builds on them - although many of us were already connected. But there's a lot more than that - there's information and discussion on ST that you can't find anywhere else. Lots of content and entertainment, available virtually free - a publisher's nightmare. Mixed in with lots of dross and noise, of course - no editing, and little censorship. Bad posts will always threaten to drive out the good, a la Crowley.
My guess is that a sociologist would see ST as a real community - shared experiences, ethos, and so on. We're a bunch of happy anarchists, but there's a certain rough justice when things get out of hand. And, most importantly, it is inclusive and egalitarian, and aware of its roots, which is a lot of what climbing is all about. At the same time, open to new contributors - we don't suffer fools gladly, but my guess is that the median age is slowly lowering, to our benefit. It's one way for us all to learn from each other. And, if we want to talk about something, we don't insist that others listen, though we hope they will. (No one said Andrew had to read the thread, although he perhaps should have before he blogged.)
Winston Churchill famously said "Better jaw jaw than war war". He knew what he was talking about. Even if the discussion here had been as Andrew claims, it would still be better than someone simply doing whatever she/he felt was the "right" thing to do. (Although that would probably sell a few magazines...) That could still happen, but I suspect it's less likely than it was. The climbing community, and therefore ST, loves debate and discussion. Style is very important to us, and the debate between means and ends is a fundamental human question. All the more reason to have these discussions - even if they subtract a little from our climbing time. Bearing in mind that there may be larger concerns at stake than the merely stylistic, and that others may be quietly observing this.
The world of publishing is ferociously competitive, and threatened by the "new media". Virtually all major traditional news media are losing circulation, and scrambling to adapt. It's also hard to make money out of a website, even if linked to a newspaper or magazine. Add to that a pending U.S. recession, and competition in the world of climbing periodicals. There are five + in North America - R&I, Climbing, Gripped, Alpinist, and Urban Climber. Will all of them survive? I support most of them, and wish them the best.
The magazines also have the challenges of demographics, a perhaps fragmenting market, and overall declining participation in outdoor activities, especially amongst the young.
Perhaps eventually forums like ST, in context of websites, will come to have an even larger role in generating discussion and even conclusions. I couldn't say. The world is changing quickly, though, and that can be discomfiting for anyone. Also, the news media often like to think of themselves as "opinion leaders", or at least in touch with the zeitgeist. If they're not "in touch", and perceived to be, it can affect their credibility. Readers, not to mention subscribers, can be fickle.
Edit: I see that Ed has said many of the same things, perhaps more eloquently, up thread. Free speech and democracy really are wonderful things.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 02:43am PT
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One more observation that was somehow lost on Andrew Bishart. A lot of the climbing forums have 'moderators' who are basically there to police the content and discussions to keep everything 'civil' and 'nice.' SuperTopo doesn't have 'moderators' and doesn't seem to need them. I think that speaks very highly of the participants and the quality of the discussions we have here on SuperTopo.
Bruce
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 17, 2008 - 02:59am PT
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Something in here smells funny....
Did somebody step in something?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 17, 2008 - 08:40am PT
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This is absolutely the funniest part of "Andyfest" to me.
First, he lurked. He couldn't help it. His mag had covered the climb, and then posted an "Oh my Gawd, look at the numbers" comment. He just had to get an eyeful.
Next, he was put off by all the spelling and grammar errors. This and the fact that all this lively attention was going to a virtual campfire and not his mag was just too much.
Then he placed himself on a wee pedestal above all this "unreal" discussion, and went to write about it at his own little campfire, where HE gets to be the authority. This was the moment where he got some on his shoe....
He dissed us! Instead of jumping in and letting his opinion be known here, where he might have elevated his cred and his mag, he took his ball and went home. Some of our Supertopo brothers called him on it right at his campfire instead of rubbing his back.
Then he continued to lurk....he just couldn't help himself!! He knew the word was out, so he rapped in from the top to take a looksee instead of climbing the damn thing from the bottom like he should have.
Oh my gawd, these irrelevant, irreverant Supertopians were really taking the mickey out of him now....grrrrrr...
So he did exactly what he said was so bogus. He jumped in, spoke up and participated in this unreal, disconnected from reality discussion!! But he got more dog doo on his shoe and made it sound like his opinion was more important. He made it sound like he was giving the last word from the mighty R&I.
And now, here's the best part....drumroll please....
He's stuck in permanent lurker status!! He's too cool to be in this conversation! He already said so! He's a "real" climber!
But now the conversation is about him, so he will continue to lurk! He has too, he just can't help himself.......
BWAHAHA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!
Oh yeah, Half Dome, Growing Up, Half Dome, Growing Up Dome, Half Up Dome, Half Growing Up Dome !!!
By the way Andy, 33 years of climbing experience right here in this individual poster. Thousands of hard pitches of freeclimbing and many many grade V and Grade VI walls. I still climb hard. Not as hard as I used to but I pull reasonably hard for my age. And I'm only one voice in this thing. How old are you?
Ed & Mighty Hiker, sweet posts dudes!! Damn U gies R smaarrt!!
cintune, your post a ways back with all the bold print was feckin' hilarious!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Apr 17, 2008 - 09:22am PT
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Survival, you forgot to mention...(locker style edit)
911-terrorists-911-terrorists-911-terrorists-911-terrorists...
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Apr 17, 2008 - 09:24am PT
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Ed and MH, you both really wrote some sweet
words. I'm glad I'm part of this community,
and being able to rub shoulders with you guys
is a privilege.
Thanks.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 17, 2008 - 09:26am PT
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This is still going strong...Im in Panama and then on to Costa Rica...update me...what up with Rock & Ice
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Apr 17, 2008 - 09:27am PT
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Its ironic that in his denigration of our camp fire Andrew has probably single handedly propelled this irrelevant thread to 1750.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 17, 2008 - 09:39am PT
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Bob,
No....you have to go back and read it all...HAA :)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Apr 17, 2008 - 09:47am PT
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Andrew I am really glad you still think your self so correct and significant. Hubris is a wonderful delusion. It is one of the reasons R&I has lost so many readers. Since we know you think ST is so irrelevant you should just keep on grinding out endless drivel. Perhaps you guys should print up yet another (ad nauseum) crash pad review or a scintillating expose on all the worlds most significant 'sit starts'.
After all isn't that what the market/advertisers believe that climbing is all about.
17 posts on your R&I blog compared to 1500+ on ST. Exactly who is irrelevant?
Open mouth insert foot (even with poo on your shoe).
One of the beautiful things about ST is that even you would still be invited to join our virtual camp fire.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:21am PT
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That's it guys. We all owe Andrew big time. A debt that dwarfs everything else. Read your posts above.
We now realize
there is an
"us".
That was the larger problem.
We didn't know this.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:23am PT
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Doug Robinson
John Bachar
Kevin Worrell (sp?)
Sean Jones
Tom Higgins
Scott Cosgrove
Ken Yager
Bob D'Antonio
Werner Braun
Roy McClenahan
John Long
Peter Mayfield
Kurt Smith
Steve Wunsch?
Hank Caylor
John Middendorf
Russ Walling
These are a few of the unreal people that have participated in this discussion. Very sorry to all of you that I left out. You're important to me too.
Andrew, I'd say we're doing fine. Come, sit with us at the fire and have a beer........
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ct
climber
CO
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:39am PT
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For the purpose of context, some 'gems' from Andrew Bisharat's 'Tuesday Night Bouldering' column in the very same Growing Up issue of R&I. I didn't have the intestinal fortitude to type it out in full.
"Dude, your chest hair looks like the Bat Signal." "What?" I said. "Does not." No! It can't be. I'm not Batman. Theres no way.
"I'd much rather be Batso," I said, beginning to think more clearly. Yes. That's right. you meant to say Batso. Batso man! Warren Harding! First ascent of the Nose, drank a bottle of red wine every day, ran around with hot women and drove fast cars, and didn't give a damn about anything." These were a few details I know about Warren Harding, and to me, the only ones that really mattered.
"Of course a cat needs help getting out of a tree like Dean Potter needs help putting his foot in his mouth..."
Bisharat then launches into an extended rant about gumbys, highlighting his heroic role in a 'resuce' at Rifle. He writes:
"I reached up into my shirt and touched my chest hair - either my mark of Cain or my cross to bear; its nature was still unclear. Batso would never miss a party like this, I realized."
"The realization struck me hard. This was my calling. My heart momentarily jumped into my throat and a shock of electricity ran through my nuts. I am Batso!" "I am Batso!" I screamed, accelerating forward."
"It is an incredible thing to realize your true identity and just how deeply rooted climbing is in the absurd."
What a load of drivel. Obviously, taking anthing he writes seriously is a stretch of credibility. Just because this guy convinced some sap to pay him for the crap he writes doesn't mean that he has anything useful to say.
Most amazing to me is that R&I couldn't include a few more amazing photos of Growing Up, a topo, or more well-crafted words about the beautiful face because they had to dedicate 3 full pages to this guy's steaming pile?? No big surprise R&I continues to stink, despite trying to cop from the Alpinist style.
Conversely, if you thought Bisharat's writing above was brilliant and captivating, the entire article is here:
http://www.rockandice.com/inthemag.php?id=21&type=tnb
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 17, 2008 - 11:17am PT
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Brothers and Sisters of the Typefest,
I have a confession:
It was me.
I didn't mean to.
Honest.
It must have been on the summit,
weighted down by the courage
I was carrying in my rucksack,
That long, long rap rope.
I was too busy looking
for the way down
'cuz even doing it wrong
requires some skill
and placing your anchors
in the right spot.
It's what the Buddhists call
"Right Application of Force."
And I listen as hard to their wisdom
as I do to yours, my brothers.
Anyway, distracted by my "Right Attention"
another pretty good idea --
that kept me
that day
from tumbling down the South Face,
I stepped in it.
Now that we're all here, however,
Crowded like the virtual ghost
of jstan's Gunks Summit
into this, admittedly somewhat airless room
where paradoxically freshets of cool breeze keep erupting --
I motice that many, many of my august compatriots
Have also come forward to, uh, "aire" their soles.
Really, you are too kind
to step forward
"best foot" as it were --
and make a brother feel
a bit less like the Lone Ranger.
Especially since some of those tainted shoes
have been stashed so long in the closet.
In all humility I thank you.
(My arrogance, it hardly needs saying,
still lurks,
biding its time
to pounce again.
It's fair. Damn sure real.)
To echo another of my favorite lines here
you have, my brothers, spoken so many great lines
that I lose count --
Carry On!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 17, 2008 - 11:18am PT
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[Finding it hard to not comment...]
Perhaps Andrew did have an interesting point. And maybe he'd thought about
it and matured his idea after reading different internet forums. However, he
chose the wrong thread to use as a target for his epiphany.
Starting his eBeltch with 1,400 posts' worth of inflammatory and ungrammatical
climbing writing, he essentially dis'ed everybody who posted to *this* topic,
and completely missed the importance of this thread.
Yes, this thread is important, and not just because of the number of posts.
Real ideas and emotions about climbing have been brought to the discussion,
and we've spring-boarded off those ideas into new discussions.
I'm amazed that this thread has had no drift, something that seems to end
other "serious" threads--they drift off with two or three folks duking it out.
Well, no drift here, until Andrew shows up.
Andrew certainly does not understand the hand that feeds him. People who
buy his magazine read the articles printed therein. It sparks them with
ideas, and hopefully motivates them. Reading his mag, they are doing just
what Andrew is throwing stones at. "We are perpetually distancing ourselves
from reality through technology." And that does include reading magazines.
--
PS. Doug, that was awesome.
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nevenneve
Trad climber
St. Paul, MN
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Apr 17, 2008 - 11:31am PT
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Completely OT but is anyone gearing up for another ascent and perhaps another opinion on the subject.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 17, 2008 - 11:39am PT
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Second ascent?
Neve, you're insinuating that CLIMBING will be done! We must not climb, we most post!
I've got my chalkbag, my hands are taped up to my armpits, I have more stickers on my helmet than that beef jerky shop off the 395.
Reality is gone
There is no rabbit hole
I must post
I must find superglue solvent for my ass and this chair.
carry on.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 17, 2008 - 11:44am PT
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"as clueless as a baby covered in womb sauce"
classic FISH!
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Gobi
Trad climber
Orange CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 11:54am PT
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I'm prepared to get the 2000 comment!
I’ve only read a few comments on this thread but I guess I’ll say something on the matter just for the hell of it.
What’s done is done, we should admire the route for what it is. It’s the one route on that face without any crazy death potential. As long as it’s the only route and it remains the only route that’s bin rap bolted on the south face.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 17, 2008 - 12:33pm PT
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Well, I'm going to be away for a few days, and experiencing the real world. My existence may be internet and SuperTopo free for the next six days. I wonder if I can survive? Maybe I can escape into the public library when no one's looking, and check.
Sadly, I won't be climbing, but rather in Toronto, attending to family things. If I'm lucky, I'll go to one of the gyms there. It will be interesting to see what happens next. Will this thread still be going strong?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 17, 2008 - 12:46pm PT
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We need a new farm! A better farm. Posters = bad. Judgements = good.
are we at 2000 yet?
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Apr 17, 2008 - 12:58pm PT
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Base
You really don't want a synopsis. Inform yourself.
Read every word. It's worth the effort.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:03pm PT
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Maybe FISH will do us the honor of another fine summary.
Oh Russ...yoohoo...are you there?...."womb sauce" Gawd.....:)
DR,
that was a really cool post. I'll have to read it a couple more times to see if it actually says what I think it says.
I'm honored to be in the same womb..er...room with all you people.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:04pm PT
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I think Fish's summary is still mostly right
"SFHD rap bolted by a naked talus runner [Robinson] and a pro climber [Jones] who also does construction to feed his kids. Route is probably great, but since style is still important to many, FA guys are getting an earful. Other guys are loving the new way to do giant walls safely, and are coming to the defense of the FA guys. Many old crustys in the fray. Lots of bad spelling. Young guys poking old guys with sharpened stick clips.... old guys peeing on ball-less young guys..... Since opinions are like bungholes, even 5.4 leaders from the Gunks are lipping up along with the hardest of the hard from every era. No end in sight."
I'll add on this:
Big-headed Rock and Ice eNews writer and regular onsighter of Red River Gorge 5.10b sport leads posts offensive (and possibly true) opinion piece about the way the internet works. Supertopians can't figure out what the point is; likely, it was an attempt to break the record for egregious spelling and grammar errors in some sort of post-modern climbing art essay. Tacos have moved from the real topic to attacking said "Big Head" in an off-topic shift style vaguely like that of Lois and Fatty.
...yeah... I can only wish to be Fish.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 17, 2008 - 01:18pm PT
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Coz,
lagging a bit here
--beats slagging, tho, for damn sure --
so I'm just catching up with your post.
Tossed a bottle of single malt in my car;
It's got your name on it.
Hoping for a chance to pour it out between us,
and one into the dirt for Walt.
I'm patient
but excited too.
The moon is getting on toward full.
Ahwahnee Meadow would work.
(Nice view of the Dome.)
Even better would be
Under the big jeffrey pine
at the cool basecamp under the South Face.
We could pour another,
Hatch schemes,
cackle with delight,
No longer half assed
from being super-glued to chairs
(already Fast Laned right by that one,
panting our way up the fo-real dusty trail
to get here)
not half assed but definitely looney
moon-struck
grizazled, sure, but never able to forget
the terror and the grace
of moving, moving,
moving over stone.
Until piercing daylight
and throbbing heads
make us wonder
Was it just a dream?
and
Where did that rabbit hole go?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 03:04pm PT
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pour Walt's on the stone, and in the rapids
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Apr 17, 2008 - 03:48pm PT
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Ok, I'll say it since no one else has....
Damn Sarah's cute. (not to mention climbing hard after only two years of climbing)
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Apr 17, 2008 - 03:50pm PT
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But one thing mentioned about Sarah in one
of the earlier posts, or maybe Doug's story is that
she has hepatitis C or D or something like that.
I hope she does okay.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 17, 2008 - 04:03pm PT
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sarah watson = kelly clarkson?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 04:14pm PT
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> hepatitis C or D ...
Hepatitis C is very serious; maybe you should check your facts first before posting something like that.
Here's the quote from Doug's article:
"Sarah Watson went back to Boulder and came down with an antibiotic-resistant strain of Staph."
Not exactly good news, but not hepatitis C.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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Apr 17, 2008 - 04:17pm PT
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Reel it in, boys.
Kelly Clarkson? You're just feeding fuel to AB's fire.
And Matt, you should pull those.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Apr 17, 2008 - 04:19pm PT
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Sending my best wishes for a speedy and full recovery.
And what about the a-hole who dropped her gear and didn't pony up to help replace. Weak.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 17, 2008 - 04:25pm PT
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Yeah, Sarah...
Strong, smart, a desert rat at heart, drawn to steep splitters
I called her a hottie in the first draft of the story.
Female editor removed the reference.
women...
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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Apr 17, 2008 - 04:25pm PT
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That guy's [mr.cheapskate butterfingers]name is the one that should be plastered all over the interweb.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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Apr 17, 2008 - 04:26pm PT
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The 'hellcat bitch', I believe is the nickname given the editor in question.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 17, 2008 - 04:44pm PT
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My experience is different.
Very good editor, smart and funny.
I'm just amused at a woman quickly downshifting the characterization, by a writer with direct experience, of another woman.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:16pm PT
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Hey Doug or Sean,
Maybe I missed it. Was the final thing done in a single push, bottom to top, or was just the upper half done in a push?
If so when do you intend to go back and do the whole thing in one bite? Maybe someone will beat you to that little plum?....
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:21pm PT
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Sorry Clint, my bad. But I knew it was something
bad, and staph can be--loss of limbs, the flesh eating
bacteria. I in no means meant to misinform. . .
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:24pm PT
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The virtual campfire burns on and it grows late.
The ones who came in the beginning, have been drunk around the fire, eaten, sobered up and then drunk again. Who knows if somebody puked on their way to take a leak.
Some others might have returned from a climb to see the fire still burning and saddle up to get warm and share in the tales.
Later still, some guy calls out from the Rock and Ice tent and says keep it down!
Maybe our words get slurred before dawn breaks.
But we are bonded in our experience and community, working out the rough edges together, and seeing a common thread that's stronger than our differences.
I feel good about it all.
Peace
karl
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Tired Trad Tales
Trad climber
southern cal
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:38pm PT
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a common thread or just another tired trad tale?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 17, 2008 - 05:42pm PT
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I smell a rat....
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scuffy b
climber
up the coast from Woodson
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Apr 17, 2008 - 06:27pm PT
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It's so big of you to dirty yourself enough to provide that
evaluation.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 17, 2008 - 06:40pm PT
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no doubt, need some disrespect in this thread now with the rni thing.
Though admittedly I'd like to take a shot at trying something on that face GU. Probably don't have a prayer, but wth.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Apr 17, 2008 - 06:49pm PT
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yea i win! post # 1553!!!!!!!
send me a prize please...
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scuffy b
climber
up the coast from Woodson
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Apr 17, 2008 - 06:50pm PT
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Did somebody thank you for something?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 17, 2008 - 07:29pm PT
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Hey Surivor,
Every move of the climb was done by Sean Jones on lead. I'm pretty sure Sarah Watson led most of it too, but I'm not certain about that.
It was redpointed in two stages. The bottom half, up to the bolt ladder, all trad, all pro set on lead.
Then came the weeks of uncertainty about how to proceed, the indecision, agonizing and doubt. I know some of you would like to just skip right over that part, because it doesn't fit your model, your hope to nail us with "just" taking the easy way out.
But pause for a moment of uncertainty in those shoes. They are ti-ight!
For us it was a pretty long, hard moment. Like weeks. There was no easy way out.
During that time, Sarah sprained her ankle carrying a huge load down from our camp. It was pretty bad. Balooned up big and black and blue. She spent a lot of time on Sean's couch. Bored and antsy and, in spite of solicitous attention from some of El Portal's finest, all she could think of was getting back up to her route. Some of us had to sit on her -- figuratively, of course -- pretty hard to keep her from hobbling up the Mist Trail. She went sooner than any medical advice would allow. But of course without insurance, there was a convenient lack of that to hold her back.
So Sarah got to basecamp in one push. Pretty amazing. And the next day, with the ankle heavily taped, she redpointed the upper half of the route with Sean, leading several pitches.
Gritty girl. Hats off to you, Sarah, for that. Awesome effort, under duress, and she pulled it off.
Hard face climbing was bad enough; I can't imagine twisting that ankle into foot jams.
The FA team had no ability, at that point, to do the entire climb in one push. We were all so impressed that Sarah could even finish the climb. Not Sean, not me, not Shawn Reeder the photogrpher -- no one involved even thought about pushing at that point for an all-the-way-through ascent from the ground.
We considered the FA complete.
All due respect to John Bachar and others who want to define this differently so they can underscore their -- not our -- view that this was, somehow, not a FA. You, John, brought hook drilling into the Park. Could be considered a taint from the venerable perspective of drilling on stance. I'm fine with it, it's now accepted, and I consider the Bachar-Yerian one of the great leaps forward in Yosemite climbing. A worthy follow on to your first free ascent of Astroman.
Our leap was a bigger one. So I'm not surprised that we are spending all this time hashing it out. I don't think the two-step FA is the central issue here.
I expect that there will very soon be a second ascent of Growing Up. Second because Sean and Sarah DID the first. And rapidly followed by ascents 3 through 8 -- then we will begin to hear confirmation that this superb terrain was indeed treated with decent respect, and that a proud line resulted. By then, I'm pretty sure that the raves about the climbing itself will begin to drown out all this fuss about how it was created.
From what I saw of the rock up there, I expect Growing Up to take its place as one of the great Yosemite climbs.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
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It brings an interesting question/debate which has been going on a LONG time in this thread.
I mean, the route's there, no doubt. So, I guess it had an FA. However, FA aside, if I walked up to an established route with a partner, climbed the first half, then got stormed off and went back and rapped in, a few weeks later, to climb the second half.... I would not have climbed the route. I don't really know that I know anyone who would think I had. I certainly wouldn't feel as if I climbed the route.
Just my own thoughts on it, which are not meant to attempt to discredit anything/anyone. Not that they matter.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 17, 2008 - 07:58pm PT
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Doug,
You wrote...
"I don't think the two-step FA is the central issue here."
I think you're right.
What underlies the ethical debates like these is not setting the clock backwards and undoing what has been done. There are no absolute rules in climbing. It is know for it's maverick ways. Growing Up, is an FA, like Piana and Skinner. They worked pitch by pitch, not a continuous ascent ground up onsight. That style is the goal, not the strict measure of every single climb to be done.
However, what is at issue is the precedent setting nature of a prolific climb on a prolific piece of stone using bolts. Can I now, with Growing Up, as my standard, go into HD and top down bolt a climb so long as I can still redpoint it? If I can't redpoint it, then will people stay off it til I can? I'm figuring I get at least a couple weeks. I'm not trying to be a hard ass at all, I've rap bolted stuff, I've ground up stuff. But I can't help but wonder if one precedent leads to another precedent creating a new force of history over time, such that we end up with something like where the classic cracks in Chamonix get bolted so they are safe. (I'm assuming the bolting done top down is done in a sport fashion, and not deliberately run out. If so, that would be a crime, but that's a side issue and speculative on my part.
Thought experiment- Why not set a series of anchors and top rope from the top downward? Downward bound? Just some thoughts. Thx for listening.
Best,
M
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 17, 2008 - 08:21pm PT
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Doug,
Of course I was totally kidding about the scared part. I wouldn't believe that for a minute. Rap bolting is one part of the question. But hasn't it always been considered good form to go back and do the thing in one piece, regardless of the style it was put together?
Did Pianna and Skinner not go back and do the Salathe in total after they worked the parts? Boy, I really do have some things to get used to in this brave new world...
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 17, 2008 - 08:26pm PT
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Russ,
I haven't had much time to read the posts lately but caught up a bit today. I noticed you compared Rock & Ice to Rob Halford. I think you meant it as a put down.
I just got the latest issue of R&I today and I have to say it looks soooo good. Best I've seen in a long time. Funny thing is, that today before going to the cookie cliff to burn laps, I sat at the tv first and blasted the latest from Halford into my head. Like church. My church. Halford rules. As far as I'm concerned, Rock &Ice has been kicking ass too.
Anyway, Hello everybody !!! You all seem to be having a pretty good time on this site now. Makes me happy. Even if many hate the style of the route, at least now I can think of how it brought everybody together.
God, my head's getting bigger by the second. I see myself hanging in the middle of the south face. Nialed to a cross, bleeding and dying, like Jesus. Sacraficed my pride. But at least everbody's talking and thinking. My hopes all along.
Just kidding about all that.
Sinse I'm here, I saw a question upthread by ...... can't remember asking about a single push.
We redpointed all the lower piches to the end of the arch then fixed to the ground. came in from above and worked and bolted the upper wall, then jugged the fixed lines to the high point and and redpointed the upper wall.
This was a long involved process. More work than most people could imagine. More thought put into it than any route I've ever done. I do plan to do a 1 day push soon.
If somebody decides to run up and try to beat me. I really don't care. I worked longer and harder than ever to put in a route the way I wanted to see it done. By done I mean finished product. If somebody wants to try and one up me, Who the f#ck cares. Then somebody can go one up them. 1st onsight, 1st solo
1st whatever.
If that's all you ever get out of climbing, then you missed the point anyway. Whoever goes up there for any route, just try and remember to have fun. If you're there for any other reason,why even bother going.
One other thing I would like to answer to is I think Bachar saying something about how the the upper wall was done, having something to do with not being able to climb it. At 5.11 d
do you or anyone else really think I don't have the abillity to climb that. On lead?
Maybe you should do your homework a bit better. The chance of going out on lead for hundreds of feet and blanking out, then realizing I should have gone another way. Ultimately making a huge mistake on the most beautiful wall imaginable, Is not something I was going to do. Even if that meant sacraficing my "PROUD" summit.
As I said before, I hate hearing the word proud attatched to climbing. The most important thing to me was getting it done one clean time. Leaving the top to some futere generation is not something I was about to do.
I had a very clear vision from the beginning that I would leave behind the most climbable route o n the south face. Period. The last thing I would want to see is the top being runout. And 2 people climbing it over the next 50 years.
F#ck !!! I got sucked into this f#cker again and have to run to get my kid.........
Peace,
Sean.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 08:41pm PT
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Sean + Doug,
Thanks for the details on the final part of the ascent with Sarah.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 17, 2008 - 08:44pm PT
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Any chance of seeing the topo before the 2000th post?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 17, 2008 - 08:52pm PT
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It won't go to 2000. You guys don't have the stamina nor the stomach to go that far.
Only God can climb The South Face of Half Dome perfectly.
Who here's God?
Not you not me.
Time to to do just your best, good luck.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 17, 2008 - 09:20pm PT
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Thanks, Werner
You blow me away.
Somehow you figured out how to be sarcastic in a kind way(not this post)
Can I have lessons?
And then there's Sean.
Having him post up here after days away is like introducing my new cool friend to my tight circle. Okay, this is a way loose circle -- but don't you love the energy of that guy, just blowing the doors offa things, then blasting out to take 7-year-olds climbing?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 17, 2008 - 09:31pm PT
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All glories to Doug Robinson our kind and gentle teacher.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:22pm PT
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Hi Klaus,
Intentional. I was looking at the history of free climbing on the South Face. Lost Again, as I recall, is mostly aid. Cataclysmic Megashaer (spelling? It was "-eer" on the topo I saw) has four pitches of aid, big ladders of holes.
And I don't believe I ever saw any info on Road Rage. Please tell me about that one -- I'd love to hear.
Some inconsistency in that I wrote about Karma, which has some aid, but I believe much less than any of yours.
I was really tempted, still am, by Cataclysmic because the photos of the free climbing are so mouthwatering, and it goes up an interesting part of the wall. I'd love to hear more about it, too. More photos? Upper pitches? Shoot, we'd even settle for more of "Miss Kalus 2000."
And tell us about Lost Again too. Even though it seems to be the most aided climb of the lot, it takes a part of the wall that you, alone, have ever seen.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:34pm PT
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DR said:
"All due respect to John Bachar and others who want to define this differently so they can underscore their -- not our -- view that this was, somehow, not a FA. You, John, brought hook drilling into the Park. Could be considered a taint from the venerable perspective of drilling on stance. I'm fine with it, it's now accepted, and I consider the Bachar-Yerian one of the great leaps forward in Yosemite climbing. A worthy follow on to your first free ascent of Astroman. "
With all due respect, the BY was still an "ascent" (5.11, A1). I started at the bottom and got to the top. On "Growing Up", the party couldn't make it to the top - i.e. they couldn't ascend it. They went to the top and lowered a ladder down. Then they "ascended" the ladder.
The Emperor's New Top Rope! You can't see it but it's still there....
I'm not saying that's good or bad. It is what it is but the party failed to ascend the face. They did ascend the face with a ladder lowered from above. That's all.
peace, jb
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 17, 2008 - 11:16pm PT
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"Did Pianna (sic) and Skinner not go back and do the Salathe in total after they worked the parts?"
Now there's a question, albeit in a bait and switch format...
BTW, Cheers Scuffy, you took the words ( thst I was trying to form) out of my mouth...
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:51am PT
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BADA BOOM BADA BING!
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 01:45am PT
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Again, Do you really think I wasn't capable of climbing the upper wall ? Shall we go climbing together sometime ? Not to sound like a hotshot becauase I'm not and don't really care to be.
I heard stories of $10,000 being offered in the past if someone could follow you around in the past. Shall we go that route ?
Hey, if I'm sounding pissed, I'm not. I already got pissed before and regret that. I really do respect the the achievements of all the baddasses in the past. And the badasses now for that matter. John, Scott, and everyone else.
The sh#t you guys did is nothing short of amazing. That doesn't mean that everyone has to do things the way you did. That doesn't mean you make all the rules for the rest of the world. Period.
More poeople climb my routes now and more people will always climb my routes. That's what I want to happen on my routes. That's always what I've wanted on all my routes.
I could write on and on....... I'm not going to change anyone and don't want to. Noone's going to change me either. I'm not running around the valley grid bolting and niether is anyone else. Nor will I or anyone else.
Instead of rambling on and on, I guess I'll go make a topo tonight. I can't find the one that I Know I do have. That will probly give people a bunch more to complain about and surely drive this thread up and over 2,000.
CARRY ON !!!!!
Peace,
Sean.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 01:54am PT
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Hey Scott,
I never wrote back and said thanks for the invite on dinner and beer. THANKS !!!
I've thought long and hard about this. I have no intention to go and argue or try to convince you of anything. You are you and I am me. I'm very open to hearing your thoughts about anything.
You've been in this game for a long time and I'm sure I'll learn alot by listening and would love to do just that.
Again, Thanks for the offer !
My schedule is stupidly busy right now but somewhere in the somewhat near future I do need to go to L.A. I'll let you know when that is.
Peace,
Sean.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 02:28am PT
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On the Rockclimbing.com version of this thread, Aaron posted this reply and I thought it was a perspective that weighs in for what it's worth.
"Isn't it ironic that a sport that prides its self as being an outlet of counterculture, should demand such a level of conformity of its players.
I receive a great deal of satisfaction knowing that the routes I've developed, have been and will be enjoyed by many. Going to the crag and seeing people on my routes having a good time is reward enough for me to keep on developing quality routes.
Personally, I don't see the appeal or justification of the old school way of route development. Sure I could have developed more of my routes on lead, and it would have been a great adventure for me, and ONLY me, sadly the finished product would have been crap and the adventure and the quality would have been robbed for any repeat assentionist. For me, this practice is selfish, and the routes would stand as being nothing more then a shrine to my ego.
Perhaps what we're seeing in the development of this route on half-dome is a shift of thinking away from the old school way of thinking. A way of thinking that was fundamentally rooted in naivity of their sports development and future. In the past route developers put up routes with the understanding that they would be the first and last accentionist of their line. Isn't it amazing to think that when asked if the Norse would ever be repeated Warren Harding said that he wouldn't believe that anyone would go through all that effort for the second accent.
Unlike their forefathers, the developers of this route recognized that they are not alone it the climbing world and they put up a route that is a reflection of this.
For that I respect them.
Aaron. "
I have to admit, I respect that attitude. Good routes often get climbed by thousands of people and that counts for something. Their adventure, their experience. It counts. Climbing can be a selfish sport but it doesn't always have to be about Me, Me, Me
Peace
karl
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 18, 2008 - 02:54am PT
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Posting in a thread that is being reported as journalism in a climbing mag.
Also, climbing is not a sport.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 03:32am PT
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"Also, climbing is not a sport."
Golf is a sport, that's why they make the big bucks.
You could lose your mind playing Golf, very dangerous.
Climbing on the other hand, is pathological,
a disease of increasing internal feedback loop addiction, monkeys with monkeys on their backs....
Hmmm. maybe that's going too far..
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 18, 2008 - 04:12am PT
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This risk of losing your mind from golf comes from boredom.
And chemical poisoning.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 18, 2008 - 07:17am PT
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Aaron's perspective is one of someone who only knows doing FA's of bolted routes. He sounds as if he's never looked for a natural crack line in his life. Bolted climbs are the place that can leave a climb of such and such a perfectly crafted "product" for all these climbers coming later who love a well crafted clip up.
Traditional free climbers developed a sense of not pounding the rock into submission because of all the great natural weaknesses there were to follow. Climbers who come later can have as much adventure as they like or they can in many cases pour in as much protection as they like, to the point of flaming out or running out of gear. (I fully understand that the upper half of SFHD is not such a place)It is a natural progression for such free climbers to carry this thinking to the places where cracks ran out, don't pound the stone into submission, keep it brave, test myself, AND those that follow me.
The counterculture aspect of climbing is still quite strong. No one demands "such" a level of conformity, but rather a loose set of guiding principles. It is silly for anyone from this "new wave" to think that there isn't plenty of opportunity for abuse with these tactics, as there have been with other climbing tactics over the years.
I can come to your favorite crag and fix a rope, whack and dangle around on my favorite 10d for a few days, and then rap in from above and place a few more bolts on it. We're in a new age right? There are no rules, and I'm only thinking of craftsmanship and having a better product for all the climbers who come after us. You couldn't tell me not to do that because it wasn't the "first" ascent. Hey, I have a better feel for my caliber and climbers of my caliber in the future will appreciate the added bolts. There are no rules. Your argument that I have to follow what the first ascent guys did would hold no water, because there are NO rules.
It's arrogant to suppose that climbers of the past have no sense of their sports development and future! WTF? Modern gym climbers have a better sense of our sports "development" and future? Also very very few climbers of the past ever thought that theirs would be the only ascent, forever, of their route. That's just not a true statement. So Warren Harding said that, so what? He doesn't speak for all climbers from the past.
In climbing routes put up in traditional style, I never felt that the FA guys had lessened my experience by not placing a bolt where I might have liked one.
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Steve Wolford
Trad climber
White Salmon, WA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 10:35am PT
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Sounds like a awesome route. Climbing is what its all about. Times change. I think these guys made the right call.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 10:39am PT
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Kevin makes some good points. What's the difference between a ladder established from the ground or one lowered from the top? Just that - one goes up and one is lowered down. Visually they are perhaps the same.
I guess I'm just too simplistic in my overall view of "ascensionism" - you either make it to the top or you don't. If you lower down and prepare the route, then you've avoided the challenge and are no longer climbing in the strict definition (the simple definition).
In the end, I think that's what attracted me to the sport (game, activity, etc.). It was the purity of it. You get to the base of the rock and try to climb it. You make it or you don't. Like surfing a big wave, you make it or you don't (no top ropes from helicopters or help from hidden submarines). If you decide to drill a bolt ladder, at least it's honest and makes a statement about your climbing style. Personally I would go down at that point and wait until I got good enough to avoid doing that but each climber must make their own decision. If you go top down, you run away from that crucial decision. Get better or lower the climb to your level? Weird perhaps but that's my warped view.
Sometimes I feel like the kid in the Tale of the Emperor's New Clothes, where everybody sees the clothes except the kid, and the kid is the only one who sees that the Emperor is naked and says so to the rest of the people, "Yo, the Emperor is naked."
Curse or blessing? I don't know, it's just how I am so I apologize to any for my brash commentary. I don't mean any harm - I guess I'm still wrestling with my own demons!
Thanks for bringing this stuff up Coz, and thanks for the discussion everybody!
Cheers, John
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 18, 2008 - 10:48am PT
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I think that Sean would not have anz problem climbing the route ground up...he just chose to do it in a different style...nothing wrong with that.
As to the brotherhood of climbers...I was just in Panama..read a short piece about climbing and took my shoes and chalkbag. When with my wife to bouldered at this one crag and ran into a local who was guiding. Ask me if I would like to climbed and offered a harness and rope. Took up the offer and climbed a few routes...when back a few days later and ran into him again..offered me a rope again and got to climb on some harder routes...quite a surpise for me and a great exerpience for me to meet him and climb...as I was leaving I offered him my chalkbag and he thanked me.
Small world.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 11:11am PT
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Survival nails it: A "counterculture" mindset does not mean that anything and everything goes and that there is no set of guiding principles. So what are the core, guiding principles of Yosemite climbing? How about these:
1. No chipping or gluing
2. Ground up ascents
These basic ethics have largely protected Yosemite climbing from the type of route proliferation that is common at many other crags. Are these ethics reasonable and is it reasonable for the local community to want to maintain them? The answer is yes on both counts. Fact: Yosemite has an airy, larger than life feel, quite a different feel from the opposite extreme of grid bolted cliffs. This feel is to be valued. It should be respected and protected, as it is a unique resource.
From the FA:
“I've done alot of new routes and used alot of different tactics in doing so. ALWAYS putting the finished product in mind above all other things.”
That’s nice, always looking out for others. In their defense, there will be climbers on HD who will have a great experience, climbers who otherwise would have been on something less majestic. But if climbs like GU are the front edge of a wave, let it be known that SU and the like come at a price as they erode the atmosphere that makes Yosemite an amazing, unique place.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 11:27am PT
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SlipK - while I agree that Yosemite is a very special place, it is difficult not to view the issues with GU, as you have framed them, as a part of the larger issue of development in the Valley. While a designated "wilderness area," it has a $500/night hotel, a supermarket, etc, once even a golf course (I believe, if not, it is easy to think it could have been true).
The debate as to how far to go in providing access, whether it be climbing or just visiting, has raged on for decades. A ban on bolting would seriously reduce route production, would increase the number of R/X routes, and increase climber violations. On the other hand, it would restore Yosemite climbing back to more "natural" means, at the expense of access to all climbers. Similarly, a reduction of NPS and vendor infrastructure would provide a more natural experience of the Valley, but severely restrict visitor access.
We won't solve this conundrum here, even in 2000 posts... even though Pratt thought 6 climbers and 6 bears might hold civilization back...
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 18, 2008 - 11:28am PT
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Well said, Kevin. I second that with enthusiasm!
I too always try to climb in the most stark style, ground up, fewest tools. My head goes to pieces on me soloing, so I'm usually stuck with a rope and a rack. And not barefoot, 'cuz John's got me addicted to his shoes. Rarely carry bolts; I like natural lines, follow cracks mostly.
But I also love slabs. The starkness and the purity and the runouts all get to me in the best way. Maybe that's my demon, that leads me to bolts, that...never mind! Back to why we're 1500 posts into this.
Anyway, John, gotta thank you also for dragging your demons out here in public. By putting it that way, I get to bring out my demons too, the ones that led me to this "who'da thunk" big surprise in my life of dangling on a cord whacking on the drill. I'm good with being here, just surprised is all.
And this is even better because by chewing on our demonology we get to descend into the uncertainty of the rabbit hole. That leads us to sketchier terrain than the simplistic place where we're in danger of acting like two old goats bashing each others brains to jelly by the old butt-heads-and-repeat formula.
It's a high step here, but I think we found a better line.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 11:45am PT
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Tow-ins are a pretty good analogy for rap bolting though.
Hahahaha Are you serious? hahaha
Those monster waves they get towed into won't find one person here with the balls to surf one of those 50 to 80 foot beasts.
Better keep surfing outa this.
Who started this law or rule behind no top down anyways?
C'mon who's behind it, c'mon spit it out. Somebody's behind it.
Wasn't the NPS that's for sure, who started the ban on Power Drills? It wasn't the land managers, that's for sure.
Hee hee hee
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:01pm PT
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Werner,
You just love pulling the tail, don't you? No answers, even the questions are slippery. It's all about the well placed needle with you. You should be a frickin' acupuncturist!!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
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Rapier wit, that Werner. Yep, yep.
Like acupuncture, sometimes you don't even know you've been stabbed
...until, curiously, you just feel better
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:21pm PT
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Werner writes:
"Wasn't the NPS that's for sure, who started the ban on Power Drills? It wasn't the land managers, that's for sure."
Ironic, isn't it, that a ground-up trad master complaining to the NPS was the catalyst for the NPS banning power drills.
Ironic, since power drills would have helped advance ground up tactics for one handed drilling on the lead, instead of the cave man technology of hammer and drill, pounding away at iron-hard stone!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:24pm PT
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DMT,
Tow-in is a great anaolgy. In fact, I've been watching surfing carefully for 40 years to see the future of climbing: scarcer resource, crowds, "my beach my wave," territoriality in the lineup, fist fights in parking lots, "valleys go home," sponsorship, the media, dope, heroes, soul surfers, the mystical references to "our mother ocean"... Kinda all there, only bigger.
I like Kevin's gradations, too, like:
leash = hang-dogging
tow-in = rap bolting
Of course while leashes can be just a selfish convenience to avoid extra paddling, they can be seen to have a social function too, like not klonking fellow surfers with your board which can threaten their lives. Hmmm...
Isn't Laird Hamilton against tow-in? Maybe in the same vein as his never entering contests? Is he surfing's JB? And he's married to a supermodel...
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:27pm PT
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Ed,
I concur that the GU issue is piece of a much larger whole. And while the NPS is going about taking out campsites, gas stations, and golf courses, are we as climbers taking it the other direction?
Changing times have noticeably eroded some of the mystic and sense of grandeur of the Valley. In the 60’s, El Cap was to be feared. In the 70’s it was much larger than life. Then it got climbed in 1 (one) frickin day! Its size kept shrinking in the 80’s. By the 90’s someone decided to put up a cell phone tower so that you can talk to your significant at night from your ledge, and call Werner directly if things get sketchy. Now EC is climbed in minutes with live Taco reports if a speed record is being attacked. Much of this change is positive. But the loss of mystic is negative. Yosemite still has a “Wow!” factor that is unmatched in continental U.S. When it’s gone, it’s gone. When a once anathema ethic arises which hastens its (Yosemite's uniqueness) demise, we should all take notice and have something to say.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:27pm PT
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"Sure I could have developed more of my routes on lead, and it would have been a great adventure for me, and ONLY me, sadly the finished product would have been crap and the adventure and the quality would have been robbed for any repeat assentionist."
I don't agree with what Aaron said here, at all. There is a legacy of hundreds of routes, left for all of us in the valley, that strongly disprove this opinion.
Traditionalism is also important. Especially when it came about for the reasons that ground-up climbing came about. But this is true of all kinds of things. All "sports". Tradition makes things what they are, currently. The difference between climbing and other things is that there's no governing body (thank god) and no one setting rules (again). Regardless, taking shortcuts is usually frowned on in any activity.
I think kind of what's happening here, if you look at it, it kind of seems that the people who think of climbing as a sport are on the "for" team (where anything goes), whereas those of us who think more about climbing as a pursuit, a way of life, etc. are in the "against" team. Not saying it's good or bad, it just seems divided that way, for the most part. This also isn't to say that there's not a little of both in each camp.
It's really a difference of opinion and style/ethics. So it really boils down to should SFHD have rap-bolted sport routes on it? Should there be areas of Yosemite, which is steeped in tradition, that are "sacred" so to speak? Or should it really be a free-for-all? Which, in some ways makes one wonder about the inch and the mile... If *they* can suddenly do as they please on HD, then why can't I do this over here? It kind of reminds me of the Jardine Traverse, in some ways. Something frowned on and "futuristic" was done anyway. Will GU also stand as a sore reminder of something sad? A scar on another of Yosemite's majestic walls... Or will it pave the way for the future...?
Things are definitely changing, as is evident in how this has all played out. If you think about reactions back in the day, by the Stonemasters, etc. to things such as this, versus the reactions of my generation. It's hard to not feel as if something has been lost. One generation has gotten a little older and toned down, the new just doesn't have the same kind of heart. That's the way I see it anyhow.
Interesting points/observations are being made by many in this thread.
"(no top ropes from helicopters or help from hidden submarines)"
hahaha Nice, JB.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:46pm PT
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Nef. Some really great observations in your post. A few years ago one of the rags ran an article on old letters-to-the-editor. The point was, I thought, to show how stupid or short-sighted we can be, as in the letter stating that Jardine’s Friends (cams) were a form of cheating that diminished climbing. Ironic that it was also Jardine who chipped out the Jardine Traverse.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Apr 18, 2008 - 12:59pm PT
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Tow-in surfing and sport climbs... some waves could not be surfed with out a tow in (you need the speed to catch the wave), and some climbs could not be established on lead. If a wave can't be surfed without a tow in should it not be surfed? If a climb can't be done with out rap bolting should it not be done? This doesn't apply to Growing up, since growing up is not a sport climb that could have been done without rap bolts.
Of course tow-in's are sometimes used on waves that don't require them and rap bolting is sometimes done on climbs that don't require it (Growing up), that's a different point of controversy.
I think the ground up style is an important 'rule' that preserves challenge and adventure. But does that 'rule' apply to all climbs? Or is that 'rule' best enforced in the mind of the first ascensionist.
Warren and Galen previewed the top of the face when Royal rescued them. Did that negate that FA? Or is it just if pro is placed on rappel that negates an FA?
Sean has said, (and it plays out in the ratings of the ground up vs. rap bolted sections; 13a vs 11d) that he could have done the climb ground up. He didn't 'bring the climb down to his level', he made the choice of style based on what he felt would leave the best route for future climbers. So the funny thing is that if there was no article about the climb, most people would not know if it was done ground up or not, and this thread would not exist. Or if he did the ascent ground up and retrobolted on rap later this thread would not exsist.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 01:09pm PT
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Who is Aaron?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 01:20pm PT
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Seems to me that route proliferation in the Yosemite has been prevented by two other things
1. No Power drilling
2. Granite doesn't lend itself to proliferation like limestone and some other stones
Peace
Karl
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 01:25pm PT
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Karl - can you tell me who Aaron is, or at least link to his post?
I have no idea who you're quoting...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 01:54pm PT
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Aaron wrote
""Sure I could have developed more of my routes on lead, and it would have been a great adventure for me, and ONLY me, sadly the finished product would have been crap and the adventure and the quality would have been robbed for any repeat assentionist."
then Nefarious wrote
"I don't agree with what Aaron said here, at all. There is a legacy of hundreds of routes, left for all of us in the valley, that strongly disprove this opinion. "
Karl sez "Huh? First of all, we're talking about face route cause cracks take care of themselves. Many, many of even the crack routes in the valley have retrobolted anchors by those who later prepared the routes for popular ascents. But it's face routes when the FA party has the option of considering future ascensionists or not and I strongly disagree with your statement that there are hundreds of routes that disprove that opinion. First, the opinion was Aaron's about his route. Second, can you name 20 bolted face routes in the valley that get regular climbing? The Apron of Cathedral, Glacier Point and Royal Arches are littered with face climbs that are rarely done and seldom maintained. Face climbing is the place in the valley where the 1/4 inch nasty bolt with a 30 foot run-out after it still lives.
Nefarius"
"I think kind of what's happening here, if you look at it, it kind of seems that the people who think of climbing as a sport are on the "for" team (where anything goes), whereas those of us who think more about climbing as a pursuit, a way of life, etc. are in the "against" team. Not saying it's good or bad, it just seems divided that way, for the most part. This also isn't to say that there's not a little of both in each camp"
Karl
I think that's your imagination. These ethics debates seems like sexual morality debates. "Just abstain, if you have sex before marraige, pretty soon you'll be screwing the football team and then giving BJs for $20. Anything will go, you'll marry a goat." It ain't that way. People use their judgement.
Nefarious:
"It's really a difference of opinion and style/ethics. So it really boils down to should SFHD have rap-bolted sport routes on it? "
Karl
"Huh? Growing up isn't a sport climb
Nefarious:
"Should there be areas of Yosemite, which is steeped in tradition, that are "sacred" so to speak? Or should it really be a free-for-all?
Karl
again, too much absolutist all or nothing talk. Half dome's first ascent was a giant bolt ladder, Harding drilled the crap out of the South Face on the Fa, Skinner sieged the crap out of the Direct when he freed it, and Arcturus was just rap bolted. Even Southern Belle was seiged and, apparently, neither Souther Belle nor Growing UP have had even one continuous ascent. Not ONE! If you're jugging lines on your ascent, it's just another way of cheating.
Nefarious
"Things are definitely changing, as is evident in how this has all played out. If you think about reactions back in the day, by the Stonemasters, etc. to things such as this, versus the reactions of my generation. It's hard to not feel as if something has been lost. One generation has gotten a little older and toned down, the new just doesn't have the same kind of heart. That's the way I see it anyhow."
Karl
I think you are just making this stuff up out of fantasy land and not really considering history. Fixed lines, bolted cracks, and the whole nine yards. THere was plenty of it back in the day. It's the same as it ever was, only with new issues, same as the old issues, but different.
PS. Not trying to bag on you, just called these statements into Question
peace
Karl
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 01:58pm PT
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Thanks for the link. I haven't visited that site in years.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 02:09pm PT
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Randy says, Huh? Is Karl smoking too much of his hippie lettuce...?
First of all, with your first paragraph about my first paragraph, we're not talking about crack vs. face, at all. You make that separation, no one else. It's about ground-up, vs. not. That was the style that most routes in the valley have gone up. That is the "ethic" that was practiced, for the most part, since it all began.
"Face climbing is the place in the valley where the 1/4 inch nasty bolt with a 30 foot run-out after it still lives."
Seriously, you're just arguing my point for me here, dude.
"I think that's your imagination."
Well, that's just your opinion. I'm pretty happy with the company I am in, however, that shares the same opinion.
"Huh? Growing up isn't a sport climb"
Hmmm... Just out of curiosity, what do you call a rap bolted line? It's certainly not a trad line.
"again, too much absolutist all or nothing talk. Half dome's first ascent was a giant bolt ladder, Harding drilled the crap out of the South Face on the Fa, Skinner sieged the crap out of the Direct when he freed it, and Arcturus was just rap bolted. Even Southern Belle was seiged and, apparently, neither Souther Belle nor Growing UP have had even one continuous ascent. Not ONE! If you're jugging lines on your ascent, it's just another way of cheating. "
Again, you're taking what was said, twisting it to suit your rant and totally (with the exception of Arcturus) bypassing the fact that this is about vs. ground-up or not.
As far as fantasy... Again, I think there are plenty of people here sharing my view. And I'm happy with the company sharing it. Actually, I really don't have to "think" that this view is not just some wild "fantasy", there are 1600 posts in this thread alone, not to mention the countless other threads on similar topics, that *show* people sharing my opinion are at least half of the folks in the discussions.
Seriously, dude. Amusing.
edit: The more I read this, the more I am amused... You've just taken my post, added yours and really condensed this 1600 post thread back to the very beginning. One side against the other. It will never change. hahaha I'm going climbing. No time for this nonsense.
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Tired Trad Tales
Trad climber
southern cal
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Apr 18, 2008 - 02:48pm PT
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re: tow-in surfing
The "leash = sport climbing" and the "tow-in surfing = rap bolting" are interesting thoughts and nice attempts - however incorrect. It is more like "tow-in surfing = sport climbing" because this is a method that raises the top level of the game (i.e. 5.15) for the elite and allows mere mortals to have a more fun and enjoyable experience in otherwise dangerous and unsurfable conditions. There are surfers who believe leashes (i.e. rap bolting) should be outlawed at certain breaks - thus accomplishing crowd control. These breaks include venues like Sunset Beach in Oahu and Windansea Beach in La Jolla (SFHD?). This is an idea that is worth considering at a few select breaks because only the skilled watermen would survive. So Tired Trad Tales would say "leashes are more like rap bolting".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 02:49pm PT
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Hi Randy
Guess we were talking about different things. Aaron's post had been about considering other people in his FA. That's what I was talking about.
You talked about ground-up versus rap bolting but then went on about climbing losing its soul.
Soul is about lots more than rap versus ground up and there are TONS of ways to cheat while going ground up. That's what I'm talking about. It's the same as it ever was around here and the old school likes to pretend they were pure but they were not. Only the identified sins have changed, but the principles go on
The main point I was getting back to, was that it's possible to consider lesser climbers and the longevity of the climb when doing an FA. A lot of the 5.13 capable climbers in the past (even though they hadn't invented the grade yet) gobbled up the 5.9 territory with no-pro routes, cause it was nothing to them and now it's a no man's land. Today. some harder climbers put up moderate routes and equipment them for the grade for the service of others. I respect that.
Having a section put up by rap doesn't mean Gu isn't a trad climb anymore than the Nose isn't a trad climb because it was seiged over weeks or BY isn't a trad climb because it's only bolt protected. Things don't have to be exaggerated. They are what they are. GU is what it is. This whole Trad versus Sport is a few fangled concept with no real definition. (or care to define it?)
peace
Karl
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Apr 18, 2008 - 03:13pm PT
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Growing Up seems really influenced by Trad and Sport, and it's sort of in between those, really. It's like a Sprad climb, really.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 18, 2008 - 03:21pm PT
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Sprad route, I like that.
I was thinking it was traort.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 03:21pm PT
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"Growing Up seems really influenced by Trad and Sport, and it's sort of in between those, really. It's like a Sprad climb, really."
Classic.
Just like ourselves, we're a mix of angel and devil, pragmatist and idealist, traditionalist and innovations.
Peace
Karl
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 03:32pm PT
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New Paradigm
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 03:39pm PT
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LOL!! That's some funny shít...
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 05:44pm PT
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Thread Reflections
The Discussion – Well Meaning But Edgy And Nearing Eternal
Philo hits it, I think: “Most posters to the Growing Up thread would agree it has been a lively, spirited and valuable exchange. Preferable in every way to the fisticuffs and bolt wars of the past.” Indeed, with only a bit of name calling and put downs, the discussion has been civil. That’s important because:
the style debate is very long standing
has been corrosive to camaraderie in the past and is perfectly capable of veering into a nasty tug of war at any time in the future
has clouded how we assign merit to the route creators; how we feel about reading about latest achievements in magazines, journals, guidebooks and web sites; how we hear from and honor the game leaders; in short, how we enjoy the sport in all its dimensions
rarely led to specific resolution or agreements between the factions
So while this particular discussion at this particular time and place may be mostly civil, the larger issue worth pondering is how can differences be resolved or at least diminished area by area. Or, are we resigned to the two style camps picking at one another forever? Is Ed Hardouni right, “Passion is good... but we also aren't going to agree in the end?”
Everything Is Fine - Or Is It?
One reaction to the debate is not to take it seriously. If the debate were nothing more than spirited sparring over the merit of differing styles for ones personal satisfaction, it might be fine to do so. Hunters, fishers, skiers, all have their preferences for competing styles and equipment, why can’t climbers? Tarbuster puts it well, “Essentially, I'm saying there should be no resolution here, because climbing is an art form that is evolving, expanding, diverging, and converging. Different viewpoints upheld with a critical vigilance; that's how stuff of substance is made. It's a healthy conflict.”
Of course debate is fine, as long as it is about what styles are more fun or better for the soul. Then, to each his and her own. But when the sport involves a record of ascents in guidebooks, heroes held up, histories written and achievement awards given, all tied to who did what when, then how things were done matters very much. We can judge sprinters, golfers, tennis players, weight lifters and the rest because at the time they compete, the tracks, courses, courts, weights, rules and judges are the same. One can even compare some across time, though not perfectly, as sport technology changes, though not the size of the golf hole, or weight to be lifted or distance run.
So the crux of the issue is that the wide variation in climbing styles makes it at the least tedious, more often confusing and sometimes impossible to place the achievements. Every major new route or “first free” demands its own discussion (1500 posts in some cases!) and scrutiny. How was the protection placed? Top down or bottom up? How many attempts? Were falls or tension involved? How many? What was done after falls? How much if any previewing? Could it have been done differently? Left alone? How does it compare to the route next to it done in different style? Routes of yesterday? And how does it all stack up compared to the achievements and climbers of the past? As the debate goes on, it wears us down, too easily tempting a relativistic view of climbing wherein all means of achievement are suspect, none can be sorted from another and, by implication, history becomes mud. Karl Baba gives us a peek at how this progression unfolds, “Whatever your form of climbing, aid (most destructive and free standards increase all the time) power drilling, hang-dogging, siege climbing, rap bolting, even using chalk, topos or cams. They've all been dissed in the past. It could be argued that any use of a hammer for anything is beating the rock into submission.”
From Preferences To Consequences
As I’ve argued for some time, the style debate starts to get traction when it turns from arguments about what are better styles on personal, moral or ideological grounds toward consequences of styles choices for the climbing community.
At first blush, it appears style choices are merely personal. Ksolem points out how first ascent style affects his pleasure of a route, “I don't decide whether or not to try a route based simply on how it was first done. But, I do get something extra out of doing routes which have a proud history. I love climbing up to some wicked thin stance and imagining what so and so went through to get a bolt drilled there, or doing a runout (which could have been bolted from above) and getting to re live the first person's experience to some degree because they chose to do it as a lead.” Eddie takes the opposite view, “I won't climb a crappy climb just because the first ascent team had an epic on it but continued in good style and managed to finish it. But I WILL climb a fun/adventurous climb that was put up in poor style. Or even poor ethics...” So, if an area has both sport and trad routes, Ksolem and Eddie and the many others posting feelings like theirs can choose their climbs accordingly and go home happy. Isn’t that the end of it?
Yes and no. Where an area offers plenty of room for both styles, each can find climbs suiting their own preference and consequences for others are less likely. The problem comes when routes grow in an area along with competition for best cliffs. Then, because previewing, top down protection on tension, maybe rehearsed moves and hanging after falls, if they are part of it, all give an advantage for gaining the coveted first compared especially to old trad where previewing was by binoculars, all pro went in on lead without rope tension or hooks, falls resulted in lowering off to stances or the ground for retry, and rapelling to high points or jumaring there for long working sessions and numerous falls was not the custom. That’s why trads squirm, the older trads the most. And that is why the south face of half dome raises the thermometer – it’s a big and beautiful prize and at least one nearby route demonstrates it might have been doable with trad technique. Fears arise too about other big possible prizes. As, Adventurous worries, “… what sort of future impacts are we going to see from writing an article about it in such an influential medium as Rock and Ice. Someday are our revered big walls going to look like a local grid bolted sport crag? I am sure this is not the, well meaning, intention of the fa team. However, for a climbing community this is a well needed thread topic.” Such worry is not misplaced: there is only so much good game in an area to divide up for those with bows and arrows and those with guns.
There is another reason style choices are not just personal. Sport style makes bolting faster and easier and more likely to draw the attention of land managers and regulators. For example, in the Flatirons and Eldorado, (city and state land respectively), officials require permits for new bolted routes. At Joshua Tree, the National Park Service prohibits bolting in wilderness areas and power drilling altogether. Placements in non-wilderness areas require a permit. Devils Tower National Monument bans new fixed anchors. A proposal to ban fixed anchors in wilderness areas of all national forests is under consideration by the US Forest Service. At Hueco Tanks, Texas, new bolting is prohibited and many areas are closed to climbing. Official “tour guides” must accompany limited numbers of climbers to permitted areas. Of course, bolts placed on lead by hand in trad style also can draw attention, e.g. near public trails or on cliffs with wildlife protections; but it is hard to argue rap bolting, especially motorized, is not the far more risky method for drawing the attention of regulators.
A Possible Way Out
Once one realizes the style debate is not just chatter about what’s the better experience, trad or sport; once one sees it has consequences for how we evaluate merit, compose history, hold up or demolish characters on the stage; once we understand it is crucial to how climbers compete for the first ascent prize especially where those prizes grow scarce, once one sees the connection to possible regulation, then one hopes for resolution. Then one hopes Ed Hardouni is wrong about the impossibility of agreements by climbers on how sport and trad styles can co-exist more peacefully.
It’s on the issue of agreement that the Supertopo thread is thin. No wonder. It’s the hard part, given the free spirited nature of climbers. A note posted with the handwritten name “Bachar” appear the only exception, entitled, “Co-existence Rules.” It appears an attempt at gaining signatures on when sport and trad styles can be applied. The proposed rules are less important than the attempt, for it is just such an attempt at voluntary agreements which is the crux of how the style storm can be calmed and managed. I suggest climbers need to organize locally, agree on what is acceptable on particular cliffs and disseminate written resolutions through guidebooks, signs, web sites and regular meetings.
Are there any models for such action? Not many, but some inklings about how it might go. In Pinnacles, NE and Colorado, meetings, forums and committees (voluntary or otherwise) are beginning vehicles for developing and revising bolting agreements, and staving off unreasonable restrictions. In the NE, for example, one respected local, Al Hospers, indicates periodic meetings of climbers are necessary and needed for maintaining consensus (“Valley” has become the traditional area and “Rumney” the sport area). In Britain, informal bolting agreements govern Stanage and Raven Tor. “No fixed anchors on grit. Then a few miles away, there’s a cliff sporting bolts … almost anything goes. Such a balance should be revered,” says Kevin Thaw in Summit #35.
For agreements to stick as new climbers enter the game, there is need to go beyond occasional meetings and forums around flare ups. Worth considering are ongoing local committees formed through nominations and election processes used by the AAC or Access. As Dave Turnbull, British Mountain Council CEO states, “If complacency rules, then climbers will take the path of least resistance or a minority will take matters into their own hands. The results will be random and out of our control” (“Big Issues, The State of British Climbing,” Summit 35). Democracy isn’t easy and free spirited climbers will find many reasons to oppose organization and agreements, but a bit of democracy is better than persistent hullabaloo and ripe for consideration after many, many years of dogged consternation here and abroad.
Once such committees are formed and meeting regularly, they may strive for constructive agreements serving the interests of both traditional and sport climbers. Certainly bolting will figure high on the agenda. Agreements about bolt versus natural anchors, retro-bolting of traditional routes and bolts near cracks may be the easiest places to start. More generally, agreements might center on “trad zones” where the rock will be left completely alone for those preferring to do ground up routes and attempts, with or without bolts. Of course “trad” will have to be defined as operationally as possible. Probably it will include no protection from above or previewing or rehearsing, but what about hooks on lead to get bolts in? As discussion shows on this thread, some old trads and maybe some new feel this is closer to sport than trad. And what about falls, rests on tension or lowering and number of repeat attempts? All the particular styles have to be clearly defined and enumerated and then agreed upon as to if and where they can be employed. Perhaps attention also will focus on walls to be left for the future – no climb zones where environmental or public safety concerns dominate. Each area will decide for itself what style definitions and agreements are workable and acceptable. After agreements are stuck, they need to be added to guidebook introductions, noticed on signs and brochures for an area and posted regularly on web sites.
Depending on local preference, severity of differences and threat of regulation, committees might address a few particular issues, e.g. bolting, or an array of issues comprehensively. Limited agreements might start on protection and anchor bolting. A more comprehensive approach might include setting standards for ascents to be included in area guidebooks and histories. Where cliffs are packed with routes, remaining opportunities scarce, tensions high between sportsters and trads, and land mangers hovering with regulation threats, committees might agree to stringent standards; elsewhere, less stringency might apply.
Agreements centered on style for guidebook credit could effectively curtail squabbling about best first ascents deserving and undeserving of recording; or ambiguous, strained attempts at comparing the achievements of those climbing in different or unknown styles over time. As well, the associated problems of “grid” bolting, trails to everywhere, scrubbing and the like also are diminished with lowered incentives to climb everywhere by any means. However, the point is not whether particular suggestions here are too restrictive, far fetched or unacceptable. Each area can decide all the variables for themselves. The key point is the entire spectrum of style issues - first ascent credit, first ascent opportunities for a range of stylists, clear history, route preservation, environmental impacts and staving off regulation - can be tackled by organization and agreements.
In Sum
In sum, climbers deserve better than they are getting in the clash of styles, both for their own enjoyment and camaraderie and for the long term history and interpretation of the sport. Much needed is attention to stable, standing, area climbing organizations agreeing on bolting, areas open and closed to varying styles and how first ascents in varying styles will or won’t be included in guidebooks and associated histories.
A watershed flare up on differing styles occurred in Tuolumne Meadows, California nearly 30 years ago. Perhaps it will take another thirty years to tell us whether Ed Hardouni is right about climbers never coming to agreement on styles. I hope not, for agreements, not wrangling, are our best hope for easing if not resolving the conflict of styles.
Tom Higgins
LonAgo
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 07:02pm PT
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Tom,
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
I agree the worst conflict occurs when trad vs. rap styles are competing for FAs close to each other. And in particular when somebody wants to rap bolt an existing project that was started ground up. There is no stable answer to this last conflict, although at a minimum the person starting the project should be given time to finish it (but there is no natural answer on how long that time might be - 6 months? 1 year? 5 years? 10 years?; exceptions for time lost due to injuries, etc.).
Yosemite has large amounts of rock for FAs, and a fair amount of turnover in who is doing FAs. So conflicts may not come up too often. Group meetings/agreements seem unlikely to work, given turnover, and also the lack of incentive to attend a meeting for people who don't want to change their style [Edit: unless someone is threatening to remove their route or block access to doing future FAs, say].
Instead of group meetings/agreements, people or groups can simply make statements. For example, say a route was rap bolted from top to bottom of the Apron. A statement could be made: "I don't like that, but I will leave it alone for now. However, if another such route appears, I will chop it."
So it seems the best that can be done is to track the FA styles in guidebooks (including online sites) and have people draw their own conclusion about what route stories are inspirational, which are merely expedient, and which are in between. Similarly, such FA records are helpful for generating feedback - if we did not know who did the FAs, there would be no way for people to tell them whether their routes are good, bad, indifferent, etc.
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bler
Boulder climber
Alamo, CA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 07:17pm PT
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i wanna do 'black karma (direct)'
w00t
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bler
Boulder climber
Alamo, CA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 07:34pm PT
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hey, I just put up a NEW route on halfdome today while I was sitting on my computer here, check it out, i bolted it though, only 10,000 bolts and its the hardest rating ever of a trad bolted climb, weighs in at a hefty .16d
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 18, 2008 - 07:36pm PT
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Clint wrote... A statement could be made: "I don't like that, but I will leave it alone for now. However, if another such route appears, I will chop it."
Spot on Clint. Statements that either deter or promote the precedential value depending on the style preference.
But I can't help feeling that strict statements, rather than threats of action i.e. chop, are not normative statements, which is what potentially hardliners would want.
cheers,
M
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 18, 2008 - 07:51pm PT
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Just out of curiosity, what do you call a rap bolted line? It's certainly not a trad line.
If it's not trad, it doesn't mean it's sport by defaut.
I know lots of "sport" climbs that went up "trad" style.
The terms Trad and Sport are ill-defined terms that convey different types of climbing and mindsets. Growing Up proves that top-down does not equal "sport climbing."
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 07:57pm PT
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I know Eddie (if it is whom I am thinking of)and Kris,
I actually think they would enjoy each other's company on a climb.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 09:06pm PT
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Clint,
Thanks for looking over the tome and giving your thoughts.
I agree when an area is large like Yosemite and still open to many new route possibilities, when there are few regulars (really true?) and no regulators hovering, the incentive to organize and agree is not strong. And, typically, organizing sporadically or via standing groups has occurred in smaller areas such as NE, Pinnacles, Eldorado and only after big flare ups. However, making statements in cyberspace as you suggest seems more often to fan flames than bring any consensus on what to do. And, for better or worse, the examples of climbers organized in certain areas, whether strictly on their own or prodded along by regulators, shows what is possible when the time is ripe. As well, I referenced AAC and Access as two models where climbers have found ways to organize, meet, develop consensus and action plans. So, maybe a stretch, but even the free spirited climbers of big Yosemite might yet consider agreements when things get hot enough.
I also wonder how fast Yosemite will seem much smaller than it is if and when FAs via rap bolting alone or in combination with ground up work gets going. Imagine a few more such routes on some high profile features, say, Quarter Domes, Liberty Cap, Lost Arrow, Apron and, of course, El Cap. Then might organization and agreements along the lines I'm suggesting seem so far fetched? Time will tell.
Thanks for your consideration.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 18, 2008 - 09:13pm PT
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One interesting, unbroached topic is one that considers how the FA team decided
on where to place the bolts. We are all speculating on what is up there, based
upon descriptions. Most of us here are phoning in our reports of the climb,
yet we're all in the lobby unable to see the real show.
I'm not asking for a description, and I don't think the FA team is in any way
responsible for supplying one. No matter the descriptions, the pitches will
tell their own stories. That's the tale I'd like to hear.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 18, 2008 - 09:13pm PT
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I'm off to the Valley to look at new routes... I'll reply at length when I return.
My statement was not only a prediction, but a statement of historic fact, the stylistic differences of the 70's were never really resolved. But an understanding between various proponents was reached, or at least, people realized that nothing was to be gained by exchanging blows, be they fists or hammered hangers.
As for self regulation, we do that in an informal manner now. I would believe that unless the land managers threaten us with regulation from their quarter, that the character of climbing in Yosemite is quite beyond adopting a NE regional "town meeting" style governance model.
But more thoughts later, I need to read Tom's essay a bit more carefully than I've had time to do.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 09:49pm PT
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Coz
That's what the American Indian said to the white settlers when they came.
Can't white man have respect for the great white spirit and his land.
Well they all wanted a piece of it too and drove them out. There were way too many of them white dudes, and they had all that steel and iron to boot. It was to become the end of an era as we see the results today.
This is the age of Kali Yuga, the iron age, the age of hypocrisy and quarrel.
Your style of climbing will become extinct in the future as the powerful influence the illusionary energy takes more and more hold and drags the soul down into gross materialism.
Numbers and grades will be and mean everything and everyone will be so called bad ass climbing impossible moves protected to the hilt because the future has be eradicated.
There is no next life they will preach as the gospel truth.
Huh?
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Apr 18, 2008 - 10:21pm PT
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so called bad ass climbing impossible moves protected to the hilt
Not quite accurate When it gets that hard, you actually can't clip...anybody done Headstone arete...ever?
One generation has gotten a little older and toned down, the new just doesn't have the same kind of heart.
Haven't seen E11 yet? Guys are free soloing 5.13 (and even short 14+) on the regular these days!
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web08s/newswire-alex-honnold-solo-moonlight
That's not only heart, that's sac.
Seems some from every generation are desperate to hang on to something...anything. Start pullin'.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2008 - 10:36pm PT
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426
I said in the future not now. 20,000 years from now they will eat each others flesh over this.
You'll be standing there going, "WTF ????? it's happening!!!!!!"
It really will ......
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 18, 2008 - 10:46pm PT
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tell ya right now, i'm nabbin the 2K post, biatches!
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Apr 18, 2008 - 10:47pm PT
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hehe, I need clarification...about that Headstone, will it even be upright in 20k?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 11:42pm PT
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Here's how things really work.
We're not going to agree.
There is a general feeling of what a true abomination is, they get chopped.
Growing Up falls short of that so the FA folks get a load of grief from the traditionalists instead.
The reception of a load of grief is a deterrent from other's emulating the strategy.
It's either that or "Don't ask, don't tell" like when folks use power drills to fix old anchors. (not that I've seen that for awhile.
It's a social ecosystem of pride and prestige. It takes care of itself except for a few bumps on the road and sometimes tension between styles. We live with it and it beats bureaucracy.
Any time the government gets involved, they'll be regulating physical impacts like bolts or bivies, never style like ground up or rap (although fixed lines for more than 24 hours are technically illegal already)
In the world and in climbing, there's always going to be somebody doing something we don't like
Peace
Karl
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 19, 2008 - 01:29am PT
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I want to address several posts.....
Karl Baba... as I recall your man Aaron has developed a number of routes at that quarry in Auburn and at New Jack City. I apologize if I am mistaken, but he has not done any FA's in Yosemite. There are lots of places across the US where rap bolting is rampant and people are not complaining in 1500+ posts. I think the key to this discussion is that the route in question is in Yosemite and it is also on Half Dome which has a history of bold, ground up ascents.
Since Aaron's statement applies to FA's outside the Valley, for me I don't think it is pertinent to this discussion.
Also, you assert that the "popularity" of a route justifies it's existence. I disagree. I have a lot of sport climbing friends and the routes that they like the most are the ones with bolts that are the most closely spaced. What I mean by that is that the climbing can still be "hard", but the bolts are so closely spaced that they are never scared that they are going to fall. If you go to a sport climbing crag the most popular routes are the moderates with the most closely spaced bolts.
For these reasons, I do not think that you can use popularity as the measure of the "worthiness" of the route. Maybe you can for trad routes where you have to place your own gear, but not for routes where bolts are the major source of protection.
Tom Higgins, well said. The only disagreement I would have is that I am willing to allow rampant rap bolting in insignificant climbing areas like the quarry in Auburn. As my pest control guys says, 'we let the termites attack the fences so that they don't go after the house'.
Bruce
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 19, 2008 - 01:53am PT
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Hey George,
Are you awake ? Still reading all this ? Man, I should have payed more attention in school. Maybe even went to college instead of climbing full time for the last 20 years. I just can't write like these guys. Makes me realiize what a f#cking
hillbilly I am.
Not to far from now we'll be sitting on some porch somewhere.
Rocking in our rocking chairs. In overalls and probly holding shot guns in our laps. I can just see it. I'm glad you're a hillbilly too. At least I'm not all alone.
Big love man !!!
To you and your family.
to everyone !!!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 19, 2008 - 01:58am PT
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We're not going to agree.
Karl, I disagree, I think we do agree.
I think everybody will agree that starting at the bottom and climbing to the top is the best style. I don't think anybody argues against that. Even the FA team of Growing Up knows this--they deliberated the pros and cons carefully before taking action.
The disagreement is over tolerance.
--
For a surfing analogy, I think it's more like the first to surf a previously unsurfed break. Is there a line that can be drawn through the break? Once it's done, others know it can be done. It's the first one who breaks into the unknown. Rap surfing might be like wearing an aqua-lung. You're still out there catching the wave, but you have a safety valve.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 19, 2008 - 02:00am PT
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YEEEEEEEHAAAAAWWW!
Rite bak at ya George.
Dis iz just like old times.
well not reali but ya no.
Ill tri the telee.
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grover
Social climber
Akanada
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Apr 19, 2008 - 02:14am PT
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This kinda thread reminds me of this one time, which in fact reminds me of that other time, which reminds me of that final time, which reminds me of that great time, which reminds me of right now.
Shotguns on the porch talkin bout the good ole days ?
What are you people, a bunch a hicks?
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grover
Social climber
Akanada
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Apr 19, 2008 - 02:20am PT
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You know what you need to do Sean?
Hire a limo, buy a bunch of tickets for your friends and family to a YES show in San Fransisco and forget about all this hogwashin, bachstabbin, shittalkin.....
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 19, 2008 - 02:25am PT
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SPIT------TING!!!!! BOOOOOM!!!
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 19, 2008 - 02:27am PT
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Grover is on the porch.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 19, 2008 - 02:31am PT
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Grover,
How the hell are you man ? Funny you mentioned the Yes show. They haven't played in 5 years but are doing a 40th anniversary tour this summer. 40th!!!!! Now that's proud. Not too long ago I was at Thayne's house and looking at pictures of all of us heading to Yes in a limo. Maybe we can hook up this summer and do it one more time. This could be the last chance to do that. Hope to see you soon man !!!
S Hole.
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grover
Social climber
Akanada
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Apr 19, 2008 - 02:36am PT
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Yep on the porch with only one shell left in me 12 gauge.
After reading a bunch of this thread over a whack o days, all I gots to say is, alot of you need a tissue for this issue.
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grover
Social climber
Akanada
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Apr 19, 2008 - 02:47am PT
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40th?
Fer real?
Whoa!
i'm there...
i could always be confused into a wee little trip like that.
When i saw yer post about the porch thang i just had to respond.
Tooo much.
Mark
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 19, 2008 - 02:52am PT
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True that and don't worry we've got tissues and ammo. I wish this porch was actual reality like the moons before.
The snow is melting and I'm claiming we will see a 2nd Ascent soon enough. That's what this thread needs.
B........
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jstan
climber
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Apr 19, 2008 - 06:22am PT
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Well, we have created something new. A thread that you get a to-do list from. I have to go and excerpt the major posts, and consider them side by side. Got to pull Tom's posts out for sure.
Karl's summary is pretty real world. But this really is not just more of the same, simply because now we have the internet(ST). In the past everyone just went off pissed and there were permanent hard feelings. "Rat's Ass" was a popular phrase. There is a difference now.
The future appearance of HD is a real trip that brings me to mention the NF of the Eiger. Have you looked at all the routes now on that face? Probably everyone here was affected in a seminal way by the story of the White Spider. If I were to encounter first a current map of the face and then the story of the White Spider, I would merely conclude the first guys just screwed up. No biggie. So here is the trade. We lose the story of a really heroic struggle, something close to the guts of climbing that affected us all, so that a hundred guys, most of them dead could, if still alive say, "Yeah. One of those lines on the face is my route." As for anyone needing thirty routes on that face, I ask you, Anyone planning to "do" the NF Eiger thirty times?
I would add to Karl's summary. In life we make trades every day. The trade I sketch above is pretty pathetic. Long ago I stopped looking at a guide when I went to a new area. Once you get past the noobie "tick list" mentality you just go, walk around, be amazed at the neat things, and explore.
Back in the day in the Gunks we had an outlying cliff that suddenly received more attention. A guide would have soon come along but we all thought about it and decided we would rather leave it as "our wilderness". Rather than have ten cliffs all covered up to the wing wang in lines, why not have some variety.
If we decide there is nothing we can or should do we all can see where we are going in this incremental process. Yosemite will have sixty or one hundred areas all grid bolted. I just don't know about you guys. I really don't.
All so a lot of dead people could, if they sudddenly came alive again, might say, "Yeah. that line was mine."
Jeesus.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 19, 2008 - 10:30am PT
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Kman wrote
"We're not going to agree.
Karl, I disagree, I think we do agree.
I think everybody will agree that starting at the bottom and climbing to the top is the best style. I don't think anybody argues against that. Even the FA team of Growing Up knows this--they deliberated the pros and cons carefully before taking action.
The disagreement is over tolerance."
Hey Kman, we're already disagreeing about agreeing! Of course you're right but that wasn't my point. We're not going to agree about what style is acceptable (not to chop) Most folks know what is ideal.
and regarding popularity, can't we communicate without taking things to exaggerated levels? When a 5.13 climber does a 5.9+ face and uses one or no bolts, that route isn't going to get many ascents even if it's a fine line and personally, I think that's selfish to condemn the stone to disuse. If that climber took some money and time to think, "How can I put up this line so that a climber capable of doing it could have a fine, not safe, but not deadly adventure on it? That would be awesome. It doesn't need to be every 3 feet.
But still popularity means something because climbing isn't all about the top 10% of climbers who have plenty to climb and put up many of the new routes. Does everything have to be about them, them, them? Face it, these elite climbers have put up a lot of routes like that in TM and the Valley and guess what, elite climbers don't like to go back and repeat other elite climbers moderate R/X rated routes, they just like putting up up.
The little people may revolt! In Yosemite it's pretty dang common to have a line of three parties starting off some popular route while other moderate routes rot in X rated mode cause some elite guys went up there in a day and did it with no pro.
I posted Aaron's message for only one reason. I don't know him but he spoke to the motivation of putting up routes that others could enjoy.
Let's bring selfishness into this discussion.
People who want to do first ascents get selfish and sometimes don't consider the future of the route.
People who want to do first ascents get selfish and use the tactics they feel are required to do the route even if others object
People who have done first ascents selfishly like the glory of their proud contributions to remain intact and not diluted by the little people climbing next door.
Climbers selfishly want their areas to conform to their aesthetics and taste.
Climbers selfishly want routes to climb that don't involve stabbing their commitments to family in the back.
There has been a lot of concerns that some of these faces will wind up with lots more routes than they have now. Given enough years, that's actually relatively inevitable, not because of rap-bolting but because we're all selfish and climbers want to put up routes. Now, the difference may be that 50 years from now there will be some glue technology that lets us climb till we're gripped and rest on the glue while we drill, or rap bolting will be OKed by the gym climbers of the future, or that the elite hard guys will finally get around to putting more death routes up there. The point in, the routes will go in over time just like El Cap has 50 or so routes.
The GU party put up a route with real, substantial hardware that will last. Try to do that on lead. Southern Belle had Machine Bolts. Shultz rapped in many years later to fix the route for the future hardman. He rapped in. Folks could argue that they did the route ground up in the beginning. Hey that's nice, but that's their business how much adventure they could handle, that part is a game, They sieged it and jugged hard pitches on their summit day. That's still a form of cheating to me if the game is climbing from top to bottom. I could climb well above my grade if I just fixed a line every time I got pumped and jugged back up when rested. It's just that we've accepted one cheating and dissed another.
This discussion, in part, is about how we balance our selfishness with the selfishness of others
Peace
Karl
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pyrosis
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Apr 19, 2008 - 01:16pm PT
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If you printed this whole thread as one continuous line of text in Times New Roman 12 point, it would be way longer than the route in question. Anyone sent the whole thread in one continuous push?
Much respect to everyone for their thoughts.
I hope positive change comes from this rather than negative.
-Tavis
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 19, 2008 - 01:34pm PT
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Anyone sent the whole thread in one continuous push?
Uh, hello?
What do you think?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 19, 2008 - 02:31pm PT
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Karl,
I agree with many of your points, such as
5.12 climbers should be careful when putting up 5.9s; I feel they should be bolted relative to the grade of the people who will be climbing the route.
people doing the FA can choose what level of adventure to have, hopefully conditional on establishing a route that can be enjoyed by others.
Here are 2 where I don't agree:
> The GU party put up a route with real, substantial hardware that will last. Try to do that on lead.
I have done it. So have Kelly and others. I doubt I could do it on that Half Dome slab, but there are definitely people who could. I challenge them to do a ground up FA above Sean's bolt ladder, left of the rap bolted line. Then we can have a basis for comparison. I think Klaus would have been up for it, if he hadn't been hit by that car....
> Southern Belle had Machine Bolts. Shultz rapped in many years later to fix the route for the future hardman.
I am not sure if you forgot, but they used machine bolts because they were short on cash. 1/4" were still popular on slabs at that time, also.
I'm a little surprised that you are with Joe Hedge on this point. It is really a backwards argument that says that bolt replacement is somehow unethical - that all hardware has to be placed on the first ascent and is somehow sacred and should never be touched afterwards. (my words, not yours or Joe's). Really this argument is an attempt to bond ground-up climbing with 1/4" bolts, with the hope that the general dislike of 1/4" bolts will make people dislike the concept of ground-up climbing. But most people who are tolerant of rap bolting will argue that it does not matter how the bolts got there, just where they were placed. This makes two of you like Joe's anti-replacement argument, unless you want to reconsider.
I know the currently used method of placing 1/4" bolts on lead, then immediately replacing them on rappel seems a little strange. But it has lower impact than one of the previously used method - drilling a 1/4" bathole, then hanging on it to place a 3/8" or whatever. Both have the ground-up ascent challenge. Using the bathole is a more obvious use of aid. Rapping down and replacing is also aid. But neither one is being promoted as a way to drill completely free. Just as a way to climb it from the ground up.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 19, 2008 - 03:03pm PT
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Interestingly enough many of the old school thought have accused Gu of being an ego rout yet many of the newer generation feel that it is more of a contribution. Personaly I feel that most X rated routs are the ultimat ego routs. The X rated rout is most often just a statement that My dick is Bigger than your Dick.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 19, 2008 - 03:12pm PT
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"Anyone sent the whole thread in one continuous push? "
The editor of Rock and Ice claims to have sent it in record time.
Clint, I can't speak for Hedge but I'm just saying, it says "something" when the FA guy can't or won't climb the route to replace the bolts, and that was 15 years later.
Sure the guys were short on cash at the time, but everybody's lack of perfection in route-making seems to have an excuse attached to it. "we didn't have cash to make a route with OK bolts, or enough bolts" If there were a con-side, they'd be saying, "fine, then don't put up the route" GU says, "We couldn't stance or hook drill the route we wanted" the con side says "Fine, leave it alone"
Everybody else's excuses are lame and ours are justified. Then later, folks look back at some of these X rated routes and say, "that's the way to do it, show your balls!" When really it was a lazy 5.13 climber putting up a 5.10 route with no money and only spending one day at it. (not saying that was the case in the routes we're talking about.
I'm all for replacing hardware. I just don't think this rap bolting weakness is any different that the other cheats we employ to put up routes, heads, fixed ropes, scopes, rivet ladders, bat hooks and power drills.
Peace
Karl
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 19, 2008 - 03:17pm PT
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tradmanclimbs,
Egos have many effects (not all of them bad). For example, Growing Up could still be considered an ego route as in "my route has bigger bolts and is more popular than yours".
From the article written at the time of the Southern Belle FFA, it seems clear they were pleased to create a runout route in the upper part, comparing it to the Bachar-Yerian. That was a standard of the times, among their peers. I suppose the runouts have stopped some people from attempting it. But I feel it is more the combination of difficulties which has kept people away -long approach, short/hot season, 5.12c crack climbing, 5.12d face, and runout 5.11 face. Growing up has the first 3 difficulties but not the last 2, so it should get more traffic (but not a lot).
The runouts on the Bachar-Yerian have kept the traffic down, but it does get a fair number of ascents. If it had the approach and heat of Half Dome, not many people would do it, even if it had bolts every 10 feet. Add a 5.12c crack start and a 5.12d face to that mix and you would get the traffic of Southern Belle.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 19, 2008 - 03:34pm PT
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Karl,
> GU says, "We couldn't stance or hook drill the route we wanted" the con side says "Fine, leave it alone"
Your point here is pretty good (I think the point is that we choose a style that we think will give us a fair chance of doing the route as well as a good challenge). I believe that Sean could not drill it from hooks. I am not so sure that he couldn't drill it from stance. I feel he just chose not to try it for other reasons. But I could be wrong - I would have to look at it to really understand. I think Sean made his point well when he said that he did not want to end the route below the headwall/bolt ladder, because he was concerned that somebody else would finish it in a way he wouldn't like (implying either in a very runout style, or maybe a style with bathole ladders).
I feel that if it is truly impossible to get the bolts in with a given style (say free-stance or ground-up), then it is OK to lose style points and try the next best style.
An exception (in my view) would be if the route can be easily toproped - then there is not much excuse for the impact of adding bolts. I suppose people will debate the term "easily toproped", but an easy example is a 90' cliff where you can hike to the top (think 90 Foot Wall at Tahoe). Hey, Doug even suggested toproping the upper slab of Growing Up. That would be a more borderline definion of "easily", although access is easier than doing the 5.12a/5.13a arch. The upper slab of Southern Belle could most likely be toproped in the same way - Hank and Alan rapped from 8 pitches up. Don't try it on the full slab of the South Face, though - it goes over that huge roof in the arch!
> I'm all for replacing hardware.
OK, thanks for clarifying!
> I just don't think this rap bolting weakness is any different that the other cheats we employ to put up routes, heads, fixed ropes, scopes, rivet ladders, bat hooks and power drills.
There is actually a big (small?) difference. Rap bolting can be done by someone with less skills, experience and committment than people who can do it ground up. So it can lead to poor bolt locations in some cases. This is not a criticism against Sean - I am sure that Sean did a good job locating the bolts. Power bolting is similar; it just requires some money to buy a power drill. Ground up bolt locations can be poorly chosen as well. But there is a "barrier to entry" which will weed out a few people who do not know what they are doing.
Another difference, which Tom mentioned or implied, is that rap bolting can be done fairly quickly. So if there is a race of rap bolters vs. lead bolters for routes on the same crag, the rap bolters have a big advantage. I don't think there was such a race on the South Face of Half Dome. But Klaus & Minerals may want to comment - I think they were the people most recently active there before Sean et al. Klaus did drill 5.11d ground up on Cataclysmic Megasheer. I don't know if the stances were more numerous or not than on Growing Up.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 19, 2008 - 03:48pm PT
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Thanks for the reply Clint. i would argue that 'All" the cheat techniques allow people to climb over their limit. Rap Bolting is certainly a cheat technique but, among it's many faults, it often results in better bolt placement rather than worse.
It's a little like a gun control argument, bolts don't make bad routes, people make bad routes!
Peace
Karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 19, 2008 - 05:42pm PT
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Only humans would think that bolts on a wall are really that important and how they are placed even more important.
In the big picture it means little to nothing.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 19, 2008 - 09:34pm PT
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Hahahahahahaha, .... too funny Klaus, .... too funny.
You really slipped up there Bob D'
Hahahahaha LOL
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 19, 2008 - 09:41pm PT
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Werner wrote: Hahahahahahaha, .... too funny Klaus, .... too funny.
You really slipped up there Bob D'
Hahahahaha LOL
Werner...no slip at all...why would it be important to remove them...to show what??
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 19, 2008 - 10:39pm PT
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Like you said: "In the big picture it means little to nothing."
To place them or remove them.
I just thought it was funny, maybe you didn't.
To paraphrase in the theme of .....; "In the big picture it means little to nothing."
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Apr 19, 2008 - 11:09pm PT
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I am probably going to catch hell from some people, but...
...let any one poster on this thread step up and claim that they did a FA (even one) in ‘real’ style, whatever that is.
Pots calling kettles black.
There is also something about those who live in glass houses and throwing stones. Who am I to judge?
I cannot judge whether Growing Up was done in a good style or bad style, as I am a piss poor climber.
But jaysus, 1,600 posts plus on this thread, am I missing something or what? What about the starving children in China, or is that Appalachia? Nevermind much of Africa.
I’m going climbing.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 19, 2008 - 11:38pm PT
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Patrick - we are knott here to save the world - this is a climbing forum.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 20, 2008 - 12:30am PT
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FREAKY!?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 20, 2008 - 04:51am PT
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Joe,
> My argument isn't that bolt replacement is unethical - it's that rapping in to replace the bolts, while still maintaining a ground-up ethical stance, is hypocritical and undercuts the whole ground-up argument. I got into this same argument last year with whoever it was who was going to rap bolt Space Babble
It was me. (work still to be done; my partner was not here when the route went into condition, am trying again this spring with fewer distractions....).
> as part of a campaign to uphold old school ground-up tradition and ethics...I was saying that you can't have your cake and eat it too, that you're either for rap bolting or against it, that Bachar's routes in Tuolumne got rebolted ground-up, etc. I personally do not care how any bolt that was ever drilled got where it was; either way the result is the same - a rock with bolts.
OK, I'll try to explain my side of it again:
ground-up style is for first ascent only. Period.
It does not matter how subsequent ascents are done. It does not matter how rebolting is done.
Those are both independent of what was done on the first ascent.
If John Bachar bolts Bachar-Yerian on lead, and later person X (Dave Schultz, I think?) replaces the bolts on rappel, how is that hypocritical for Bachar? Bachar already did his job when the FA was done.
If you are saying Schultz should have replaced on lead if he was a true ground-up climber, that is a statement about a style of a repeat ascent, and about style of rebolting. It is not a statement about the style of the first ascent.
I could elaborate more on ground-up first ascent style, but perhaps you can respond on whether the first ascent style is independent of styles for later ascents. I'm curious about your line of reasoning. Last year I thought you were just trolling.
[Edit for Omega: by "ground-up style is for first ascents only", I meant that style is how the bolt locations are determined - from the perspective of leading the route. It's similar to the perspective of people repeating the route. I didn't mean to imply that people repeating the climb should not onsight it. (not sure if that is what your objection is)]
[Edit for Joe Hedge: I think your objection to rap rebolting may be that the resulting route is a combination of bolt locations chosen on lead with bigger bolts placed on rappel. There is something to that, but it does not equate to bolt locations chosen after previewing the route (on rappel / toprope). The ground-up leader FA team still gets the onsight adventure, if they are placing 1/4" or 3/8". I suppose it could be argued that they would get a better adventure by placing 3/8" or 1/2" or larger from stance. But I think most of the adventure is the onsight component.]
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The Doctor
Social climber
Da Bronx
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Apr 20, 2008 - 09:52am PT
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I was just wondering, out of the last 1665 posters, how many of you have ever put up a multi-pitch FA, any where, in any style. As far as new routes in The Valley it seems like Sean Jones is about the only climber left with the vision, talent and motivation to make it happen. All the photos I have seen of his routes near Ribbon Falls have bolts and they look great. Is there anyone out there that would like to try GU with me this fall and check it out for themselves instead of playing with themselves on the Super tACO, tHE dR.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 20, 2008 - 10:29am PT
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coz wrote
"I really think you are a bunch of white men wanting it all now, spirit out the window.
Go ahead and destroy the last great places, so all can enjoy.
I am out.
Growing up is material bullsh#t, I hope when the Kali Yuga ends, something remains.
No peace, "
Pretty harsh judgment Coz. Since you're such a strict ethicist, can you explain why you didn't return to do a continuous ascent of Southern Belle. Surely it's a convenience and also a "Cheat" if you jug past some of the hardest pitches on the day you FA the upper route. If the route is so fine, why not do it ground up in a push? Or is it really so deadly you couldn't roll the dice on it yourself one more time?
I hope you're not signing out without the Southern Belle trip report. Folks on both side of the debate would enjoy it, and not just to nitpick.
But I'm not sure I got the nitpicking details from what was already posted. After you jugged the fixed lines on the final push, did you drop them and return later to pick them up, or carry them up the route with you?
I'm only bringing this up because of all the judgement heaped on GU. Resting for a week in a cozy bed and jugging the cruxes on the way to finishing the FA of a free climb still seems like an infringement on this proud principle of starting at the bottom of a rock and climbing it. It's another form of engineering.
Peace
Karl
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nevenneve
Trad climber
St. Paul, MN
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Apr 20, 2008 - 10:56am PT
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I might phrase it different, but Coz made some pretty common sense statements. I've never had the chance to try a .13 slab but it surely doesn't hurt me to believe that there is someone out there put together well enough to see their way through. I doubt this thread would be this prominent if others didn't feel that this was setting a precedent and worthy of some reflection. I would hold the route in more respect if it had been ground up. Even in an age of the mechanical advantage, craftmanship is irreplaceable. Oh well, the circus master found a way to warm some seats before the summer crowds get drawn into the big top.
As for the "improvement" Coz brought up, even if a collective movement effectively took enough money out of the pool there still remains some pretty drastic social changes to correct the mindset. I imagine few rapist could blame the lack of something they feel they need for forcefully going after the prize even if it lacks the full reward. The few I met seemed rather meek and quite unprepossessed. Overall, far from having anger drive them on to further deeds.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 20, 2008 - 11:37am PT
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Let coz rant, he likes it.
Why always try and feed him all this bullsh#t.
And Doctor, just for and example to you, I've done 2 multi-pitch FA with Coz, and only placed 1 bolt on lead for those 2 multi-pitch routes, yeah BFD. I made coz place that one bolt, he didn't want to and I could forsee the potential for what was going to happen if he fell.
He fell, and he was glad the sucker was in there after he placed it.
Blah blah blah blah, what else you wanna know?
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Ω
climber
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Apr 20, 2008 - 11:42am PT
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Clint says " ground-up style is for first ascent only. Period. "
Bullsh*it, Who made you God and that is why you will never excel at climbing!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 20, 2008 - 11:49am PT
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Werner wrote
"Let coz rant, he likes it.
Why always try and feed him all this bullsh#t. "
We are all sharing in the great cycle of bullsh#t. We all "like" it
Peace
Karl
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 20, 2008 - 12:21pm PT
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Coz, I am disappointed.
I'm all about spirit. I climb for it. And I like to spread it around. It's one of the big reasons I'm a guide. (Sure isn't the money; hard way to make a meager living.) But the smiles, the excitement, the serenity, a shift in someone's life -- pretty cool.
Snake Dike is the most spirited route on HD. More climbers face more fear at their level, more lives are tempered by rising to that occasion. More joy, more serenity, more transcendence. Gobs of each.
Of course I'm talking democratic here, and of course you're talking elitist. But there's room for both. Spreading the wealth on Snake Dike takes nothing away from how badass Southern Belle was for you and still is. It's gotten more elite Since the FA, your FFA, Caylor's disaster and the second ascent. The legend grows. And its stature is increased again by Growing Up.
Southern Belle is a high water mark in the history of runout free climbing in Yosemite -- and around the world. It stands as a measure of one dimension of spirit, way out at the ragged edge of what's humanly possible. Very cool.
But I like to respect spirit, and encourage it, wherever I find it. For an agoraphobic (literally, fear of the marketplace), opening the front door is already runout and stepping into the street can take years of courage. Not the same world I live in, but I can honor it in its context just as I honor your climb in yours.
It reminds me in a way of John Bachar, standing by a gas pump in Tuolumne, cornered by someon'e rap of "you're crazy to solo," just looking calmly back at the guy and saying: "You're soloing right now."
I'm gonna catch it, again, for getting all public-servicy on you here, but don't forget I'm a guide: I take other people's experience seriously in my professional life. And if it spills over into my personal life, if you catch me by the trailside giving beta to some stranger because it might reduce his danger, encourage her experience, even nourish an opportunity for some spirit to develop -- well, deal with it. No skin off anyone's selfish ass.
I'm excited about Growing Up because it opens up opportunity for spirit to blossom where none existed before. Or we could downshift that to a chance to have fun if this is getting a bit highfalutin'. You framed it as spirit; I'm comfortable running with that.
That chance for fun or opportunity for spirit is a little more democratic than on Southern Belle. And a lot more elite than Snake Dike. It's there for a few of today's climbers, and a lot more of tomorrow's. Like some of the folks whose spirits are raised this summer on Snake Dike will return in 2014 to test their considerably improved mettle on Growing Up, and may yet be back two years after that for a career highlight ascent of Southern Belle.
That's damn sure not me. I'll never lead either of those climbs. Way out of my league. I can aspire to doing some of the upper pitches of GU. And I'll probably lead the first pitch too, since I like Valley cracks.
But I did step up and help with the decisions that went into Growing Up. And once they were made, I put a lot of sweat, and the cost of some stainless bolts, and some blisters on my hammer hand into creating the climb.
Yes, it makes the South Face of Half Dome a less elite place, and a less solitary place. Yes, our community gets to deal with the access problems that go with it. We've already started. We put up ducks to mark what we think is the best trail last summer, for instance, after becoming -- quite incidental fallout from our passion for this route -- the local experts on the terrain below the face.
I'm good with that too. More opportunity for more spirit for more climbers. And I happen to know -- again, incidental to my passion -- that there is a huge wilderness out beyond Half Dome with thousands of routes waiting. Longer approach, but you can handle it. For practical purposes it's several generations worth of opportunity just waiting out there for exploration, adventure, and developing the human spirit.
Have fun.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 20, 2008 - 01:16pm PT
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Long runouts aren't Caylor's only claim to fame I hear...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 20, 2008 - 01:30pm PT
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it is amazing that the FA team was not smart enough to realize that this would be very controversial. to hear DR still trying to pathetically justify the climbs existence when it sounded like he was mostly a porter and a high angle expansion bolt installer. WTF?
btw, for Docter and Patrick, yes i have done FA of multipitch gu routes. tried to do them in the style of clean climbing i am sure that DR remembers that. BFD does that qualify me for this sh#t storm on ST?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 20, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
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Of course we knew it would be controversial.
Predicted what the objections would be too -- not rocket science.
And then with all that in mind, and more, we made our best decision.
Not pathetic to me. I'm proud.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 20, 2008 - 01:53pm PT
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If I were to hold the rope for the Doctor of Chiropractic on one of his multi-pitch GU FA's,
could I per chance raise my status from "hanger on" to belay slave, or Sub-Man Supreme™?
Would that mean I had earned the necessary clout to talk shít on the internets?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 20, 2008 - 02:08pm PT
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Hey Doc,
Yeah, some of Sean's other routes in the Valley (and beyond) are stellar! Too bad the new guide's not out, or more people would realize that. (Though I hear the guide's on its way, two monts or less.) Those Ribbon Falls routes are big Grade Vs partly bolted up steep aretes -- their position is outstanding. And one over by Bridalveil, I think it's called Momma, again takes a line with incredible position. One Reeder shot at a 5.12 crux shows that so well it's been reprinted several places. Including the cover of some catalog (Metolius maybe?).
Not sure why Sean doesn't like to say "proud" (modest maybe?), but whatever, those are fine modern free climbing lines that I think are destined to become classics.
And that's just the ones in the Valley...
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The Doctor
Social climber
Da Bronx
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Apr 20, 2008 - 02:18pm PT
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Hey Knott, sub-man supreme sounds good to me. I didn't know one needed any qualifications to spout on the internet.Carry On, The Dr.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 20, 2008 - 03:09pm PT
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Things you didn't know about Sean Jones:
He sports a YES tat.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 20, 2008 - 07:40pm PT
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Karl,
What's with the harshing on coz for having fixed lines on the FFA? Is that supposed to equate to rap bolting? Those guys were trying to get it done on weekends, during extreme heat.
It seems clear enough to me that Scott and Sean are not used to all the miscommunication that can happen in online forums like this one (OK, to be frank, they are forum noobs - they are reacting to some harsh words like we all did when getting started with this weird online thing). They should meet in the real world and they would probably get a good understanding of each other's perspective. It wouldn't mean they would agree on whether the style of bolting Growing Up was good or bad or whatever. Just to understand each other's point of view.
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marky
climber
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Apr 20, 2008 - 07:57pm PT
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superb post
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 20, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
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Oops, sorry dude!
I dropped your genertor righ over Nevada Falls.
Just trying to help...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 20, 2008 - 08:29pm PT
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Clint wrote
"What's with the harshing on coz for having fixed lines on the FFA? Is that supposed to equate to rap bolting? Those guys were trying to get it done on weekends, during extreme heat. "
I wasn't meaning to be harsh.
I think it's fair that since Coz started this thread and, after hearing all sides of the issue, is still coming down hard on the route, that he justify his own route and tactics in light of this strict ethic of climbing a route without bringing it down to size with various engineering tricks.
It's my contention that fixed lines, like Deucy said, are engineering from the bottom like rap bolting is engineering from the top. If a free climb hasn't been climbed without fixed ropes, that's an important point if we're arguing about bringing the stone down to size.
The other point being, sorry to repeat myself, one person has their excuses for their route while dismissing the other guy's excuse for their route. One person's brand of "cheating" is shared by more people so it's more OK, than some newer brand of cheating.
I'm not saying they are equal, just having the discussion about why, if the ethic is so strict, didn't they just go climb their super classic route in a continous push? Check out the topo posted from another thread. Similar to the fact that GU was done in two sections, imagine the diiference in Jugging most, if not all, of the 5.12 before the leadouts.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 20, 2008 - 08:45pm PT
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"So I am wanting someone to help us haul our generator to Half Dome! Anyone? "
Ethics dictates hauling your own generator (or hire a mule from the concession)
also, don't run the electric cord from the summit or the base, fixed lines are cheating.
The Old Skool is rite, this generation doesn't get it!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 20, 2008 - 10:35pm PT
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Everyone and their mother has an opinion on what you did wrong on a first ascent...and everyone and their mother could have done it better.
Funny how that works.
To answer the Doctor...I put up a new 13a-b slab route with my climbing partner of 20 years...4 pitches...12b...13a-b...12a and 5.9...no matter how we did it...someone would complain...or do better.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 20, 2008 - 11:27pm PT
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Karl writes:
"It's my contention that fixed lines, like Deucy said, are engineering from the bottom like rap bolting is engineering from the top."
Hang on, there might be a logical inconsistency in your quote of my statement. Even if fixed ropes (whether from top or bottom) = sieging, that does not necessarily equate to "engineering from bottom" = "engineering from top". There are obviously other qualifiers at work with the second statement.
DR-reagarding multipitch FAs, probably Autobahn is most relevant to this discussion, though on that one, Cole and Reno had previously climbed the first 10 pitches, then I was recruited by Cole to get through the final bit (I remember Cole shouted out, "Bring on the Ringer!", when I got over the roof on the 5.11+ lead--it was some pretty good psyche at the time).
Other than that, I climbed most of the 5.11c (or easier) Yosemite long routes in Clint's list at http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/longhf.htm
(umm, methinks this thread might be heading into an extreme chest-beating testorestone fest--sorry to add to that...)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 20, 2008 - 11:35pm PT
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Deucy wrote
"There are obviously other qualifiers at work with the second statement. "
Sure, agreed. Sieging is different than Rap Bolting. The question is how different and it's open for debate here.
Folks shouldn't have knee jerk reaction and just say "It's always been the case with big walls and so it's Ok" We're talking about a free route here and it could be argued that in the free-climbing game, doing a continuous ascent is the gold standard of actually climbing it in the good style exemplified by the high-minded statements people have made on this thread.
Once we get into various forms of cheating, we enter a big grey area and GU is part of that grey area. If Sean goes back and does his continuous ascent, it will mean something.
Peace
Karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 20, 2008 - 11:56pm PT
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The Doctor asks: I was just wondering, out of the last 1665 posters, how many of you have ever put up a multi-pitch FA, any where, in any style. As far as new routes in The Valley it seems like Sean Jones is about the only climber left with the vision, talent and motivation to make it happen.
I just got back from the Valley after helping ablegabel put up a route, with alternative finishes... these are crack lines with a 20 minute approach which will probably not be done again, but they are great pitches, 5.10... and were put up in great style (we just climbed them). Not even that mungie, but fresh with crumblies as a lot of routes are. They'd clean up real nice with a few more climbers.
Perhaps the only violation of the "best style" was that we brushed the best line a bit after climbing it (I did when I was being lowered, as Eric had requested it and sent me up with the brush on my follow).
There are a lot of routes put up in the Valley, not just by Sean Jones. I haven't actually climbed any Sean Jones routes because I don't have an information about them, and from what I've heard, they are probably more difficult than I would venture out on. What little I've heard, people like them.
We ran into Jay Wood on Saturday morning as we were scouting locations to shoot pictures of cliffs... we asked him what he was thinking of doing and he said Dream Easy. Eric put that route up earlier this year, I think I wrote about how we did it earlier in this thread... a nice 5.8 which seems to have become a little bit popular. Who knew...
It is one of dozens of climbs I've done with Eric, you can search the STForum to see other trip reports from these outings.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 21, 2008 - 12:21am PT
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"I was just wondering, out of the last 1665 posters, how many of you have ever put up a multi-pitch FA, any where, in any style."
Um, I have. I don't think any of them are in areas your guidebooks cover, as far as I can remember, though.
I don't think there was anything lacking in the style of the 'The Passionate Life' .11 wide @ Balch Camp flake; Onsight, free, no drilling... though we used existing bolts to rap...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:05am PT
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I done dun a cuple/three of them multi-pitch new route thingies,
--and I definitely beat my chest when I topped out.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:13am PT
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By Jupiter, There are Rings Around Uranus
Courtright Reservoir with Herb Laeger.
6 pitches. 5.11d. Stanced, on sight.
Luck of the draw I led the hard pitches.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:24am PT
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Good evening Tacos,
I thought I would let you all know some bad news. This afternoon while bouldering along the Merced River Sean was bitten by a rattle snake. From what I understand his hand and the snake were in the same crack at the same time. He was air lifted to Sonora. That is all I know right now.
Blair...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:24am PT
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Well, I hate to make a bad situation worse, but since this thread started, I hiked up to the top and rapped down the top several pitches of the route.
There is evidence of chipping. It looks like DR or Sean was beating all over with a hammer to hide the evidence, but the chipping remains for all to see.
Considering the other bogus tactics DR and Sean resorted to in order to establish the route, it's obvious that they chipped holds as well. And nobody else has been on the route between when they were chipping and when I saw it! Seems like they employed every tactic necessary to bring the route down to their level, and then invented this "being considerate" story later to obscure the fact that they simply couldn't rise to the level that the sacred rock entreated of them!
While it SEEMS that they have been forthright in this thread, in fact, they have simply been hiding the most horrible facts! The chipping makes it clear that no matter their past reputations, they guys are just butchers!
Getting older, looking for a glory route, even trying to make a movie of it, it turns out that there is no depth too dank and murky for them to plumb in their quest for recognition at any cost to the sacred rock. Butchers, I tell you, BUTCHERS! My grandma could have done the route better, and from the ground up too!
DR and Sean, I defy you to deny it! It is obvious to anybody with half a brain what really happened up there! For SHAME! You will never live down this legacy of infamy!
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:27am PT
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Madbolter,
What kind of hangers did they use?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:28am PT
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Another one, even better due to it's real back country nature.
Depairadoes.
Gorge of Depair (Kings Canyon in case you don't know)
9 Pitches. Two are .11+, one is .12a.
This was a ground up ascent which took a few tries due to injuries and such (Keesee was seriously wounded and we were out there.) On the FA Chelsea Griffie and I did a no falls ascent. I am proud of it. Go do it.
edit: i see i am intermixed with another conversation. hope the bad news is not true.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:30am PT
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Blair,
Ouch, sorry to hear that about Sean. And airlifted? That sounds bad, like he took a bad fall from the boulder after being bitten.
Please keep us posted when you hear more.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:31am PT
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I'd hate to not be a part of this legendary thread in some form.
+ post count.
Ed
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:34am PT
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madbolter1 ( = Richard Jensen ? )
Bring on the photos of the chipping, or I'm calling your post a big fat troll....
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:34am PT
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Cool! I got #1700!!
Carry on...
Ed
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:34am PT
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sorry to hear about Sean's misfortune...
as for madbolter's post, it is a reference to Wings of Steel aka WOS which may be searched on the STForum in its rather lengthy incarnations.
I don't think he actually did what he said, but who knows... there are a lot of differences in the stories of these two routes and the people who put the routes up (this last point is about to become evident).
madbolter1 posted:
Well, I hate to make a bad situation worse, but since this thread started, I hiked up to the top and rapped down the top several pitches of the route.
There is evidence of chipping. It looks like DR or Sean was beating all over with a hammer to hide the evidence, but the chipping remains for all to see.
Considering the other bogus tactics DR and Sean resorted to in order to establish the route, it's obvious that they chipped holds as well. And nobody else has been on the route between when they were chipping and when I saw it! Seems like they employed every tactic necessary to bring the route down to their level, and then invented this "being considerate" story later to obscure the fact that they simply couldn't rise to the level that the sacred rock entreated of them!
While it SEEMS that they have been forthright in this thread, in fact, they have simply been hiding the most horrible facts! The chipping makes it clear that no matter their past reputations, they guys are just butchers!
Getting older, looking for a glory route, even trying to make a movie of it, it turns out that there is no depth too dank and murky for them to plumb in their quest for recognition at any cost to the sacred rock. Butchers, I tell you, BUTCHERS! My grandma could have done the route better, and from the ground up too!
DR and Sean, I defy you to deny it! It is obvious to anybody with half a brain what really happened up there! For SHAME! You will never live down this legacy of infamy!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:36am PT
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BLD, you know, I didn't pay any attention. I guess I should have, but my attention was focused on the widespread and appalling damage to the sacred rock! I can't bring a single hanger image to mind, but I have many images seared into my mind of the rape done to the rock.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:41am PT
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MadB,
I havent been on the route but Im sure you are wrong.
Do you have a real name?
Thanks Blair............
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:45am PT
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Ed, don't you mean to say "differences in the people that put the routes DOWN?"
If they were willing to rap-bolt, then they are capable of ANYTHING! They are probably child-molesters too.
Or do you really imagine that you "know" them? If you are that naive, then all I can say is that I bet you didn't imagine in advance that they would "do" this route on rappel!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:48am PT
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Blair, my name is Richard Jensen. I'm not at all clear on how you can be so sure I'm wrong if you haven't been on the route! Isn't that the issue here? Thousands of posts in a pure speculative vacuum. They admit to rap-bolting! Who knows what new horrors they will admit to when really pressed!
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:49am PT
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Clint C. wrote:
"Blair,
Ouch, sorry to hear that about Sean. And airlifted? That sounds bad, like he took a bad fall from the boulder after being bitten.
Please keep us posted when you hear more."
Clint,
I don't think Sean was up very high. I heard he was showing one of the kids how to do a move on the crack which was probably a very small child size boulder prob. I'm sure he was glad to take the hit instead of one of the kids. I think the air lift was due to serious swelling and or protocal.
Blair
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:49am PT
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I was up there and I call BS
Doug
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:51am PT
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I also saw evidence of drilled and patched holes. Let's hear the real story about that!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:52am PT
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Ahhh... DR speaks. But your bald denial doesn't hold up because YOU are a rap-bolter! Tell the truth about ALL your tactics!!! We want to hear about EVERY time the drill touched the sacred rock and about ALL you did with the hammer!
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:53am PT
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MadB,
Its simple.
I know Sean.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:56am PT
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Blair, so did you know in advance that Sean would rap-bolt the SFHD? If so, WHY didn't you stop him? If not, then you really don't know him as well as you think you do!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:57am PT
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Richard writes: "They are probably child-molesters too.", no, they are not... why don't you just get to your point Richard, shittalking is different from real slander...
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:59am PT
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MadB wrote:
"Blair, so did you know in advance that Sean would rap-bolt the SFHD? If so, WHY didn't you stop him? If not, then you really don't know him as well as you think you do!"
Go back and read the thread.
The whole thread and then ask me your questions.
B...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:00am PT
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Ed, you say, "shittalking is different from real slander...," so perhaps you can explain that clear, bright line to me. And while you're at it, please let me know how your observation is relevant. These guys RAP-BOLTED the SOUTH FACE OF HALF DOME! OMG, what credibility can be left after that???
Oh, the horror!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:01am PT
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Actually, Blair, I HAVE read every post. I didn't see the part where you knew about the rap-bolting in advance and tried to stop it. Was that posted and then withdrawn later? Or are you admitting that you don't know they guys as well as you assert?
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:02am PT
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Did anyone sh#t on their ropes?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:03am PT
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for a guy who bitched endlessly about the unfair treatment he recieved, he sure seems willing to jump right on the next guy.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:04am PT
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MadB
I AGREE with how GROWING UP was put up.
I dont need to explain any more than that to you.
Carry on!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:07am PT
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Sad to hear about Sean. I had a friend bitten by a rattlesnake last year, in his garage. Not good. The recovery takes quite a while. Hopefully Sean had medical insurance too. While my friend did, he managed to see that his bill totalled over $100K.
Ironically, his name was also Sean.
Good luck and speedy recovery, Sean!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:08am PT
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If I would have had the chance, I WOULD have sh|t on their ropes, and I would have dropped sh|t bombs all over them too! Wrong is wrong! Plain and simple! And people who can see the wrong have to DO something about it! Come ON herd!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:10am PT
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Blair, you mean you agree with how Growing Up was put DOWN! It should be called Growing Down!
Guys like this will stoop to anything! Anything, I tell you! Come ON herd!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:18am PT
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Better would have been for us to shower those guys with rattlesnakes to STOP the rape! Or high-powered rifles from across the valley! Protect the sacred rock!
Oh, the horror! Come ON herd!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:22am PT
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Lots of people on this forum have done FA's ground up and in Yosemite no less(Clint, k-man, etc.). Same goes for me. I once took a 25-footer when I fell in the middle of drilling a bolt from a very poor stance. I stormed back up to the stance and got the bolt in the second time.
Putting up FA's while exploring unknown ground and drilling on lead is one of the greatest experiences in climbing. I think some of those people in this discussion who think GU was put up in acceptable style have never had the opportunity to experience the total thrill and commitment required to do a bolt-protected route ground up. These people do not realize the incredible experience they have taken away from others.
Bruce
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:22am PT
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Oh, and by the way, even if credible, unbiased people get on the route and proclaim that there is NO chipping, that doesn't mean squat! It is THERE! Just look hard enough and you will SEE it! We shouldn't pay ANY attention to the claims of the FA team, nor to ANYBODY else that would even SUGGEST that the FA team didn't engage in even more atrocious tactics....
These guys RAP-BOLTED THE SOUTH FACE OF HALF DOME! They are capable of ANYTHING!
Ohhhhhh, the horror.....
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:24am PT
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You don't have to be doing a ground up FA to take a 25 footer.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:25am PT
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AMEN, Bruce! You are soooo right. These bozos STOLE that potential experience from ALL of us (especially from anybody that was actually contemplating doing that part of the SFHD at SOME point in his/her climbing career)! And what a botch job they produced in the process!
Next we're gonna hear pleas to pony up some money to help Sean with his snake-bitten hand. But before you get suckered into such a scheme, just remember that THAT was one of the hands that RAP-BOLTED THE SOUTH FACE OF HALF DOME!!!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:27am PT
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Richard (madbolter1),
> Well, I hate to make a bad situation worse, but since this thread started, I hiked up to the top and rapped down the top several pitches of the route.
> There is evidence of chipping. It looks like DR or Sean was beating all over with a hammer to hide the evidence, but the chipping remains for all to see.
OK, after Ed Hartouni's explanation, I see this is a very obscure reference to Steve Grossman's post months ago, on one of the Wings of Steel threads, where he said he rapped down from Horse Chute over p9 of Wings of Steel and said it looked like some of the hooking placements were chipped/enhanced. Your (? or somebody's) response was that somebody must have done that damage after the FA of Wings of Steel because those placements were not chipped on the FA.
Very few people are going to recognize this reference, so they will not have a perspective for your sarcasm here.
So I guess your current point is that you feel that the supertopo forum can be used to stir up some group effort to chop the bolts on Growing Up, similar to how those guys chopped the bolts on the first 2 pitches of Wings of Steel? I agree it seems ironic that you would appear to be stirring up such an effort.
If you can only reference your own tragedies from 25 years back, that is sad. You could do better, I think.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:27am PT
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Its sad that one would need to use put downs and negative should have, would have, and could have type of sh#t to TRY to make a point.
Oh and thanks for keeping this long running debate (that has 2 or 3 sides that make great points) so civil and productive.
B...
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:30am PT
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caughtinside wrote:
"You don't have to be doing a ground up FA to take a 25 footer."
And the point of your very obvious remark is......
Bruce (who has taken a 60-footer while not doing a FA)
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:34am PT
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Hey Richard - your shtick was moderately entertaining for the first few posts, but that was many, many posts ago...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:37am PT
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Clint, my sarcasm is not about 25 years back. It is about right now and about this thread. Same basic crap, different decade.
The "Valley Christians" will apparently always be with us, and it is THEY that should be taking the heat for their nit-picky criticisms and slanders! How much worse would this thread have gone for Doug and Sean had they lacked a Valley reputation at the time of GU? They got a lot of heat here as it is!
I guess the climbing community really learns NOTHING from the likes of Warren Harding. His points were general, not merely to be applied to him alone.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:40am PT
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Sorry you did Knott enjoy it all, Hardman. Actually I had some fun with it. You know, you can please some of the people some of the time and all of the people some of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can Knott please all of the people all of the time.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:45am PT
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I want some of what yer drinkin'...
-or perhaps knott.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:47am PT
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Bruce,
I guess I missed the significance of the 19th iteration of the same post you've been posting ad nauseum.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:48am PT
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Secret recipe that renders even well-known quotes incoherent. lol
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:49am PT
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Not very cute, in light of someone with kids being bitten by a rattlesnake. For someone with a 25 yr old hard-on to jump in and start trolling with some flat out lies, is no better than rap bolting. I wasn't around for the WOS debates, but it looks as though you have as much "lame" potential as you were accused of.......
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:53am PT
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Sean,
I hope your pain pills are strong.
B.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:54am PT
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caughtinside,
I was responding to the posters who inquired about who in this thread had put up FA's ground up. Please enlighten me as to the other posts in this thread where I answered that question.
Bruce
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:02am PT
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Wow, survival, could you possibly have more completely missed the point? Trolls and flat-out lies ARE the point.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:05am PT
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You seem to have caught on quite well. Did you notice that the guy was bitten by a REAL snake?
I didn't miss your point, that doesn't make it special.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:09am PT
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Joe (jghedge),
> Well we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
That works for me if that's how it turns out. I know you have done lots of FAs and I'm sure you've thought about this stuff, so I'm not really expecting you to change your mind. It's more like I wanted to understand the reasons that are important to you. At least you are friendly about disagreeing!
> To me rap bolting is rap bolting, and to say it's ok if you do it because of some specious line of reasoning, but not ok for anyone else (based on a slightly different but equally specious line of reasoning), just doesn't cut it.
Well, to convince me, you will have to explain what is specious about my line(s) of reasoning.
> Your line of reasoning strikes me as an inadvertent tacit admission that the ground-up FA was botched if it has to be fixed with rap bolting.
I prefer to use the word "botched" for when the bolts are in the wrong places (although "wrong places" can be a judgement call, of course). I agree the guys who place 1/4" from stance and then go down immediately and replace with 3/8" on rappel are admitting their 1/4" were not good enough to leave for later parties. But the 1/4" were good enough to protect the lead on the FA. They drilled 1/4" on lead because it was easier, or maybe they were convinced they could not stick on the stance long enough to get the 3/8" started. This technique allows them to get their ground-up / onsight FA adventure, and the immediate rebolting part makes the route more acceptable for later ascents.
> I tend to think that someone who truly believed in ground-up ethics and actually had the courage of their convictions would never think of rap bolting a route that supposedly represents a high water mark in ground-up ethics.
If the rebolters do their work well after the FA, sure, they could rebolt it on lead if they want to. The rebolting does not delete the adventure that was had on the FA. It also does not change the bolt locations (if done correctly). So the rebolting is really just preserving the bolt locations from the FA while upgrading the hardware. This is different from rap bolting the FA, where the locations are determined after inspection and/or toproping, and the adventure of onsighting and bolting on lead is missing. (This does not imply there is no adventure to be had in the FA redpoint; it can be like redpointing an existing route, though).
> Obviously rap bolting is easier and more convenient than drilling on the lead, and is the logical way to replace old bolts.
Agreed on both counts there. (Unless there are people who want that adventure of on lead rebolting, then it would not be logical for them).
> But you guys want to pretend and convince others that that same logic doesn't apply to new bolts (routes) too - sorry but it does.
Rap bolting new bolts on the FA is logical if you are not interested in the aspects that make the ground-up FA different from the FA redpoint. If you get no charge from the adventure of bolting on lead, then rap bolting is more logical. If you don't trust choosing bolt locations on lead from an onsight perspective, then rap bolting is more logical. But if these 2 things are of interest, then you have to make a judgement about whether they are worth the (usually) extra effort.
> You can have your cake, or you can eat it - not both.
Well, apparently I can have both, as I have placed bolts on lead and also replaced on rappel. I have also placed FA bolts on rappel. I'm sure you have done all these things as well. I prefer to place FA bolts on lead, unless I don't think I can get them in, or if it doesn't look like much of an adventure, relative to time spent. It is pretty much essential to have a parnter who is psyched for the ground-up style as well, or have the route easy enough to belay with a Silent Partner. Sometimes I leave the potential new route alone, if it looks too hard for me to get the bolts in on lead. I do try to limit the number of bolts I place, although I don't have any special formula for that.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:14am PT
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Uhhh... he WAS? A REAL snake? Oh, crap, I'm an idiot! THAT fact changes everything about what I was sarcastically saying to make a completely unrelated and much more generally applicable and sweeping point! A REAL snake, you say?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:22am PT
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Richard,
> How much worse would this thread have gone for Doug and Sean had they lacked a Valley reputation at the time of GU? They got a lot of heat here as it is!
Good point. I was thinking of posting the same thing myself, some days ago, but I wasn't sure if enough people knew the Wings of Steel story to understand the reference.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:27am PT
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Are you kidding? The WoS threads were "the shit" BITD™...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:27am PT
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MadB,
You have so elevated your status and shown us the light....
Has anyone ever called you an A**hole?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:39am PT
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Yeah, Clint. Same old crap, different decade.
So, Sean and Doug didn't have the maximum possible "adventure" on GU... so what? Their call. Who are we to say they did something "wrong" or even "not stylish" by not having the maximum possible adventure?
The maximum climbing adventure is nude, barefoot (if that doesn't go without saying) free-soloing of a route you will ALMOST certainly die on. Anything other than this is just various tactics on a grand continuum of "adventure." Only egotistical elitists attempt to impose their particular preferred point of the continuum as THE requisite minimum level of "adventure" below which people must be chastised, slandered, or punished.
It's pathetic, really.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:40am PT
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Get in line, survival. It's old news in some circles. lol
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:30pm PT
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Hope you have a quick and easy recovery Sean!
-Snakes in a crack brrrrrr- not a pleasant thought, I once pulled up over an edge on lead to get rattled at- right in the face. Almost 30 years later (that was spring 1977) it still makes me go brrrrr. I happened about 20 min. before a rope broke on a kid while rapplling in a fairly remote area and he augered in (I think they were from Walla Walla too Madbolter). We splinted and carried the unconscious and bloody kid out in a rope stretcher we made for the occasion and got him to the hospital stat, thank the lord for cell phones now.
__
Richard Jensen, I didn't get your references at all, thought those first posts you did were in poor form, you can always reread what you wrote and remove them if you re-evaluate and decide how stupid and off topic you sound. The later ones stand on their own and are a nice contribution.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:48pm PT
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Aghhhh....that bite story makes my toes curl!! Don't know much about these things but I would think that the hand is a very bad place to get bit due to the blood supply there. I know that if I accidently stick a needle with a virus in myself it shouldn't be in the hand (that's what they tell me at least.) Last year I shared a crack in Yosemite with a king snake...luck of the draw I guess.
-JR
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 01:51pm PT
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Good morning Tacos,
I talked to Sean this morning and he is good spirits.
His bite was a best case scenario in that only
(1) fang penetrated his right hand index finger.
Sean said the doctors don't seem very concerned
and wasn't sure if that was a good thing or not.
He is taking this very serious of course and
is waiting to see the doctor again this morning.
The boulder he was on was about 12' or so tall. He said he
was showing Guy Yager where the jugs were for the top out moves on the problem (pre inspection). When reaching over the top to find and chalk up (tick) a big positive hueco he felt the bite. At first he thought it was a bee sting or something. Then he pulled over the top and went face to face with the little bugger. After realizing it was a rattler Sean blindly jumped off landing on bouldering pads and luckily missing the kids at the base. Following his crash landing he said regretfully, "there was a whole lot of cursing in front of the kids" which he described in detail. Next Sean requested his knife from his pack and sliced his finger open and let it bleed and then soaked it in the Merced. Once they were all back in town friends convinced Sean to call 911 and get medical attention. From what I understand any snake bite in Yosemite qualifies you for a helicopter ride. So Sean was now in the air and (go figure) he scoped out some nice crags he hadn't seen before.
Sean has great insurance so no problem there.
He is in room 217 in Sornora hospital with Maggie by his side.
Get well soon bro!
Blair.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:16pm PT
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i think it's kind of ironic that madbolter1 wants to compare this route to WoS.
what if these guys had drilled up the upper wall on lead, but to do so they had chipped (even slightly) some percentage of their hook placememnts, and the route they left didn't see another ascent. wouldn't we then have a more analagous situation?
alternatively, was it 'worth it' for these guys to 'sacrafice their adventure' in order to leave a route that someone might actually want to go climb?
geuss what, you don't see a lot of scary hooking aid routes ([edit]broken up only by drilled placements) up the SFoHD, wanna know why?
who says there is limited route potential up there?
what a farce, the precident has been set!
i say let's get a couple of guys w/out a single yosemite big wall under their belt to go up there and seige an unclimbed blank-ish section of this thing, following a line entirely absent in natural features, have them leave the deck with exactly the same hardware the WoS team had, and let's have them camp on the wall for a month, then we'll see how everyone (climbers, NPS, tourists, rope shitters, etc) reacts, then perhaps we can actually make some valid comparisons!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 02:55pm PT
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Matt, if you think I'm comparing routes, you have, in your typical anti-WoS-at-any-cost fashion, missed yet another point. This thread has nothing to do with WoS, nor was my comparison between WoS and GU (although I did know that certain herd members, such as you, would blindly rise to the bait). There's a lot of irony to go around, none of it where you put it. Why don't you get over WoS as a route (a route comparison YOU have mentioned several times on this thread so far) and expand your mind to contemplate a bigger picture?
Same old crap. Different decade. (Many of the same old herd members mooing the same old refrain.)
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:15pm PT
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Sean, sorry to hear about the snake bite, that sucks. Those bolders along the merced always felt pretty snaky to me when Jamie took me on his little tour. My friend Jon got bit on the hand too, hope you get off cheaper than he did.
Also, bad form knott using the kids to break your fall. That's why you bring em along, don't you know. :)
Anyway, use that 800# I gave you and call me, you should have plenty of time sitting in the hospy.
L8,
Pasha
P.S. FWIW, Sean Jones loves him some Rob Halford and will blast that sh#t at ear shattering levels at 1am while barrelling thru Death Valley at 80 mph in Kauk's old POS van.
True story.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:23pm PT
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"Same old crap. Different decade."
no sh#t rich.
and while i might be trying to see whatever self exonerating point you think you are making in the dozen posts you have made in this thread, all of them unrelated to the climb itself, as always, that huge chip on your shoulder is again blocking my view.
btw- if these guys could have just borrowed your trusty chisel, perhaps the slab would have seemed more reasonable on lead, and growing up coulda gone up ground up, and we'd all be 1700+posts poorer for it!
(now back OT, would chipping to hook to drill on lead on a free route be a question of style, or a question of ethics? i find it all very confusing! =)
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:25pm PT
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Also, I just wanted to say how glad I am that I live, climb, and develop routes in bumf*#k Idaho, where nobody gives a sh#t what, where, or how I put something up.
Hi Mojede!!!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:27pm PT
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Blair,
Thanks for the update. Definitely scary to have the face-to-face staredown and realize you were bitten, then jump blindly off! Glad to hear it's not worse. Hopefully problems with swelling, infection and necrosis will be avoided.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:29pm PT
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Hey cuz, it goin' well? Good comment about the kids taking the boulder fall-walking crash pads, I tell ya.
Matt, Ethic-deciding TO bring tools (hammer,chisel, drill) for the climb, Style-deciding on how and what to DO with said tools.
.....or not. :)
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 21, 2008 - 03:33pm PT
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Yeah cuz, all good here. The winter that won't end could fricken end already, been good sliding conditions for sure.
Built a woodie upstairs of the shop, been training like mad for the last 6 weeks, amazing how much you can change in that amount of time.
I think I can (maybe) send those V2's I flailed on last summer now.
OT, saw that the Paradise Valley was featured in the last Outside Magazine. Let me tell you how how well that worked out for North Idaho. Enjoy it while it lasted.
When's that batholith gig going down?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 04:23pm PT
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Blocking your view? What view would that be, Matt? I haven't seen any evidence over the years that you have a view. You, like many others on this thread, seem compelled to disparage yet another route you haven't done, offering critiques about "style" that reveal only your own narrow-mindedness.
One irony is that while you laud Harding, you utterly fail to apply his wisdom to any situation, but instead find yourself, yet again, on the wrong side. What do you think? Would Harding jump aboard your elitist critique of GU?
Every climber you would say "does it right" has employed "tactics" to get up. Every one of them. You have no basis to single any route out for special condemnation, nor criticize any FA teams.
My "chip" will shrink in proportion to the emerging silence of the Valley Christians. What will it take to shrink your chip?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 21, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
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Did not know about OM--always the last, right?
"Age of the Batholith" bash--June 13th (fri) to June 22nd (sun). Spend a day, or a week. If you bring the fam, I can hook you up with more comfy crashins than dirt.
Paradise Valley was a lost cause in terms of land prostitution a while ago. East-Bozeman (Livingston) can over-run those crags ad infinitum, that's why I moved to Butte and the Batholith.
Publish the only guide to an area then move away--hehe, I'm laughing to the bank on that one, since I don't have to answer to anyone at the crags.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 05:12pm PT
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The kids are going to learn the swear words sometime anyway. It's good he also taught them about getting the poison out of a bad snake bite as soon as you can. Hopefully there's no permanent damage done to the finger.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Apr 21, 2008 - 05:13pm PT
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Karl,
Way back several posts, you said:
Here's how things really work.
We're not going to agree.
There is a general feeling of what a true abomination is, they get chopped.
Growing Up falls short of that so the FA folks get a load of grief from the traditionalists instead.
The reception of a load of grief is a deterrent from other's emulating the strategy.
It's either that or "Don't ask, don't tell" like when folks use power drills to fix old anchors. (not that I've seen that for awhile.
It's a social ecosystem of pride and prestige. It takes care of itself except for a few bumps on the road and sometimes tension between styles. We live with it and it beats bureaucracy.
No question there is a certain social pressure exerted by threads such as this one and the occasional bolt chopping which influences at least some climbers toward and away from certain style choices. However, there's also evidence from history suggesting bolt chopping can backfire and embolden certain types onto more of the same. I certainly can speak from personal experience on that one from ye old Tuolumne days. Likewise, the suasion power of thread posting, campfire discussion, even the example and history (such as it is) of the admired and "greats," if I dare use that term, only goes so far. Nearly thirty years of style "debate" would seem to suggest same. So, my point is, if and when things get hot enough between the style camps, voluntary agreements and organizing is an option worth considering, even if all it renders is "OK, that's a sport cliff and that's a trad cliff(sport and trad defined as specifically as possible, maybe 'ground up' is the better divider given the discussion so far). See ya next year for revisions and updates." Call it the agree to disagree approach, operationalized by zone.
Yes, I realize what I'm suggesting has a bit of an unreal aspect, as perhaps you are implying by saying "here's how things really work." But reconsider what "work" means. If you mean, this is how it goes, I couldn't agree more - so far in Yosemite, it's example, past and living, fireside and web networking steering the ship. But if "work" means how things only can happen, then I'll reiterate there are some scattered and partial models around of local forums and committees which are worth consideration for a possible better way. The one at Pinnacles, for instance, was pretty informal but got agreement on ground up from now on (seems to be holding). Granted officials were hovering with proposal for no more bolts at all. And, it's a small area with lots of cliffs near trails and sensitive bird habitats, so conditions are different from Yosemite, but maybe not for long if major rap bolting gets going. Then there is the Eldorado model which I gather is a committee which must approve new bolted routes (not sure what style is allowed for bolt placement), but it has the dreaded official basis and climbers are not the only ones on the bolt approving board, gulp. But my point is what I'm suggesting "really works" in some places, meaning it's there and operative and better than what they had before or what was emerging, namely bolt fests, pretty brutal and divisive tensions between climbers and regulators threatening bolt bans.
As for "it's better than bureaucracy," depends on what you mean. I'm with you on most anything climbers can do voluntarily is better than government intervention. However, if you mean the organizing and agreements I'm suggesting between climbers is bureaucracy, then I'd suggest occasional pow wows between climbers may not be so burdensome. And even full blown voluntary organizations with some funding base and staff and place of business, like Access or the Alpine Club are hardly frightful bureaucracies.
Any time the government gets involved, they'll be regulating physical impacts like bolts or bivies, never style like ground up or rap (although fixed lines for more than 24 hours are technically illegal already)
Agreed. Far easier for them to simply ban bolting as they threatened at Pinnacles than worry about how the bolts are placed. However, my point is to consider agreements not only to tame the style warring but hold off regulators from their blunt force trauma approach.
In the world and in climbing, there's always going to be somebody doing something we don't like
Absolutely. There are many first "free" ascents on El Cap, for instance, without any bolting issue but so much previewing, falling, tension rests, and repeat attempts - call it bouldering in the sky - as to turn my stomach. But then I'm way old trad school where after a few falls and couple of revisits, it was someone else’s turn. However, my likes and dislikes in styles is not the point. In fact, the exact style preferences of all posters here is not the point. The point is when any conflict gets divisive enough - and this one on styles has been in that realm for some time - there may be better options to eternal wrangles and reliance on persuasion or looking the other way.
Thanks for the thoughts and good climbing.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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James
climber
in between climbs
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Apr 21, 2008 - 05:18pm PT
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There's some A0 on the route right? If Sean rap bolted the rig why wasn't he able to free the whole thing? Is it one stopper move or a short tension traverse that will go free? Seems like if you're gonna rap the route, you should figure out a way to make sure it goes free.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 21, 2008 - 05:26pm PT
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I heard that madbolt pooped on thier bolts. I can't divulge my sources, but this witness, Knows!
Seriouslly though, what a bummer for Sean! That's got to be a bad place for a climber to get buzz-wormed, yikes. Heres vibes for a successful recovery!
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 21, 2008 - 05:36pm PT
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Blocking your view? What view would that be, Matt?
well for starters, it would be my view that this thread is not about you
I haven't seen any evidence over the years that you have a view.
at least not one that you liked to hear about
You, like many others on this thread, seem compelled to disparage yet another route you haven't done, offering critiques about "style" that reveal only your own narrow-mindedness.
i know it's a long thread now, but that's not what i wrote in it, i said i'd probably rather see it rapped than chipped and drilled all the way up, even if that meant doing it on lead (maybe that's where you got so upset?)
One irony is that while you laud Harding, you utterly fail to apply his wisdom to any situation, but instead find yourself, yet again, on the wrong side. What do you think? Would Harding jump aboard your elitist critique of GU?
uhhhh-
you'll have to post a link to my 'laud[ing of] harding' and my 'elitist critique of GU' for me to know what you are babbling about there.
Every climber you would say "does it right" has employed "tactics" to get up. Every one of them. You have no basis to single any route out for special condemnation, nor criticize any FA teams.
how about if i just applaud these guys for not having a chisel in the quiver?
My "chip" will shrink in proportion to the emerging silence of the Valley Christians.
uhhhh-
what?
(are you watching that hub-ub in texas on CNN? stay OT here pal)
What will it take to shrink your chip?
how about if you post about WoS in the WoS threads?
last i checked, there was no shortage of those.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 05:43pm PT
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James,
There is a steep/smooth 60' headwall that Sean couldn't find a way to free. Hey you can only do so much when it's steep and there are no holds! So there is a 60' bolt ladder there. A0 or A1 depending on whether you use aiders, I guess?
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jenren
Trad climber
Sac, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 05:54pm PT
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RONNNNNN YOU should do the cable route!!!!! Make it a whole summer project!!!! IT IS SO AWESOME to catch an afternoon or two watching you doing things!!! : )
New to your world..but..I've had to catch my husband taking whippers while drilling (by hand) on lead the old fashion way..
Big Walls though..different story, TOTALLY OUT OF MY LEAGUE..
Peace to the climbing world and Tibet : )
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Apr 21, 2008 - 06:05pm PT
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I thought this thread had hit rock bottom around 1600 posts, when it turned into the testoterone laced FA lists from BITD.
Clearly, with the addition of Madbolter's drivel, it still has a way to go.
Post up everyone!! Tell us how GU is the "better way" and what great GU ascents you did bitd!!! I'll get the lotion...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 21, 2008 - 06:20pm PT
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The meat is off bone on this thread...slim pickins from now on.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 06:25pm PT
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"I'll get the lotion..."
"The meat is off bone..."
You guys are killin' me over here. This thread has most definitely taken a turn for the worst, at this point. hahaha
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 21, 2008 - 06:48pm PT
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just a few more slights, and a few more slighted, and we'll crest 2K posts, how can you guyz quit now?
=)
maybe when the topo is posted?
or if the 2nd ascent TR gets posted in this thread?
so close...
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 21, 2008 - 06:55pm PT
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"The meat is off bone"
Not entirely so, Bob. Amidst the chaff, chest-beating, and demented topic hijacks, there's some very astute comments being made by Tom Higgins.
Doesn't seem like people are taking the time to comprehend his points, however.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 06:58pm PT
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I understand that bit about the lotion.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 21, 2008 - 07:23pm PT
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Coz did a good troll.
madbolter1? WTF is he talking about? hahahaha
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 21, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
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madbolter is clearly mad at the style of ascent.
when someone rapp bolts there is no choice but to catapult the sh#t bags up at them as you caint drop em. reminds me of that monty python movie but that was with cows.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Apr 21, 2008 - 08:14pm PT
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At first, I was like WTF?! about madbolter's posts, but then I thought his troll was kind of funny.
Oh well.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 08:40pm PT
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Ok, Matt, since you're claiming that I have tried to make this thread 'about me,' and that you have contributed nothing but joy and light to this thread, let's examine the facts. I quote from some of your almost countless posts on this thread.
Conveniently, you attempt to pretend to be neutral, to "rise above" the debate: "not taking one side or the other, just being a devil's advocate."
But your veiled criticisms of numerous routes, including endless "rhetorical questions," make it clear where your sentiments really lie. I am not the only one noticing this fact. An exchange between you and Bob is revealing:
Bob wrote, "Matt...that would be the FA party. [Who decides what is "reasonable" and so forth]." You respond: "that you don't forsee a problem, is itself the problem."
Bob then responded, echoing my take on your contributions to this thread to date: "No Matt...people like you who ask nothing but questions and only criticize and offer no solutions are problem."
Finally, you offer a rare moment of clarity when you summarize your thinking at one point in time: "i am particularly offended by 'needless' or unwarranted damage or impact upon the rock itself, and i see an unrepeated route, or an unrepeatable route, or a route nobody has any interest in repeating, as a whole lot of impact upon the rock for very little benefit overall, where as impacts like drilling huge anchor bolts or installing rappel routes in certain locations can be seen as impact which is spread out across all the use they get from the many climbers who will benefit from them over time." But this moment of "clarity" just is the basis of the Valley elitism that spawns all this BS.
Now let's examine the validity of your assertion that I tried to make this into a WoS thread. I'll begin with one of your passages that should be a rule you actually follow instead of merely pandering when it suits you: "i was saying that you cannot at this point make the argument that the slab pitchs are 'over-bolted', and that you would at least have to hear it from someone who'd been there, if not see it for yourself, in order to make that claim." Ok, let's keep that principle in mind as we proceed. To make claims about over-bolting, you have to have been there yourself or at least listen to those that have. Ok, we've got that principle well in hand... right? Ok, let's proceed with that principle.
Now, over the course of weeks, in this thread, you took pot shots at WoS and the "WoS crew" that I just let slide BECAUSE I didn't want this to turn into yet another WoS debate. But, YOU, Matt, are just unable to let that dog rest. Here is a sampling of SOME of the MANY shots:
"WoS PoS Jr." Hmmm... this one in context was pretty amazing, actually.
"f*#king thing hasn't seen sh#t for traffic in 20+ what years? i'd say let's find a way to get some use out of the fact that all those holes were drilled there. the aid climbers have voted w/ their feet on that one."
Well, if the "aid climbers have voted with their feet on that one," then I would have to call WoS a truly GREAT route, because literally dozens of teams (including some very well-known ones) have taken their shot at the route. The fact that they can't GET UP it isn't for lack of trying! Furthermore, the "all those holes" you refer to amount to less holes per foot of climbing than there was on the Sea of Dreams when it was put up. I guess by your logic the Sea was a POS because it had MUCH more impact on the sacred rock than WoS did, and that with MUCH less total traffic. And let's remember your own passage about having an opinion about overbolting when you haven't been on the route. Hard to actually ABIDE by your own principle, isn't it Matt? Oh, and you might try paying attention to those that HAVE been on the route, ALL of which (without exception) have stated that the route is not overbolted. So, just keep living in your own version of reality, but don't try to foist it off on the climbing community at this point, because the REAL reality (the one that almost all of the rest of us live in) is now known.
"(note: we are not talking about linking features w/ aid, but continuously chipping your way up a slab, just as the WoS crew were accused of doing. in such a case, how is patching the batholes anything but obscuring your dirty laundry?)" Interesting how you say HERE that we were merely "accused" of "chipping our way up," so you can claim that you aren't really saying that we did... it's just an accusation. But, in fact you just can't help yourself, so you have to make your point a bit clearer: "how about if i just applaud these guys for not having a chisel in the quiver?" Funny thing, though, we didn't have a "chisel in our quiver." So, if that's your base line for applause, then we should be getting our share from you. As we have stated, and as observation parties have found, we did not "chip our way up" the slab, and at NO point did we employ a chisel. In point of fact, the first ascent of the Sea did far more rock damage in one ten-foot section I can mention than there is on the entire WoS route. So, if rock damage is your great Satan, as you have stated repeatedly on this thread, then bash on the Sea and the "FA crew" of that route, and treat WoS with the respect it deserves for being an amazingly low-impact ascent.
"i say let's get a couple of guys w/out a single yosemite big wall under their belt to go up there and seige an unclimbed blank-ish section of this thing, following a line entirely absent in natural features, have them leave the deck with exactly the same hardware the WoS team had, and let's have them camp on the wall for a month, then we'll see how everyone (climbers, NPS, tourists, rope shitters, etc) reacts, then perhaps we can actually make some valid comparisons!" Ah, yes, here's the sh|t. Well, for one thing, we didn't "seige" the route. We committed to it, for however long it took. And, the line is not "entirely absent in natural features." In point of fact, the route follows a pretty apparent line of features. Perhaps because YOU can only follow a line that is "paint by the numbers," you know, the brown #3 goes in this little area, and the red #2 goes in this little areas, and be sure to not paint outside the lines... perhaps that makes it difficult for you to get it. But, perhaps this is a good time to remind you AGAIN of your overarching principle of not talking smack about a route until you have climbed it, or least of paying attention to those that have been there. But, again, it seems that you only give lip service to your loftiest principles as long as they suit your purposes, and abandon them immediately when that suits you better.
None of this sh|t I responded to. But, your approach in many threads has been to marginalize anything Mark and I have to say. Meanwhile you lose no chance to keep the "debacle" of WoS in people's faces, as you repeatedly did in this thread. You can't try to turn this into a WoS thread YOURSELF and then blame ME for it! lol... that dog won't hunt! My responses to you now are your own doing.
And, you can't even begin to hide your sorry elitist attitude when you talk sh|t about Pete.
"what kind of a shitty world is it when we cannot completely disagree with both dadisbad and PtHP at the same time?... it just feels dirty being near either one of you in any way."
You rip on Pete several times in this thread, although his account of HIS views was clear and reasonable (although, for the record, I don't share his opinion in this case). So, let me ask you, what have YOU done in and for climbing that can BEGIN to compare with Pete's record? He's far from perfect, but at least people KNOW where he stands, and at least he CLIMBS according to the principles he holds. I'm with Bob regarding your "contributions" to this thread: lots of questions and vague criticisms, and not a speck of actual insight to be found.
Finally, showing your true elitist colors, you put pedro in his place: "btw bouldering the shist around ontario counts for jack squat, nobody cares." Good job, Matt! Now pedro knows where he stands in the almighty climbing hierarchy. His opinions count for squat because he doesn't even climb worthwhile rock!.... What ridiculous elitist BS! It's that sort of comment that has rightly earned the Valley a reputation as a place with fabulous rock and sh|tty people! I could write multiple books of stories of the elitist crap I have seen against others, not counting what I have experienced myself. For all your supposed sensitivity toward the ROCK, you exhibit precious little toward other human beings.... wellll... at least the ones that disagree with you.
And THAT was my overarching point, that you mistook as an attempt to hijack this thread. We've devoted almost 2000 posts to discussing a route and its impact on the rock and on the sport, but in many posts the people engaged in the discussion seem to care very little for the people affected by this discussion. I could quote it, but people will remember the post from Doug where he expressed his deep and profound trauma at the criticism he was getting. Oh well, people will heal, right? Well, the fact is that it is far easier to patch a small hole in the rock and render it unseen forever after than it is to patch a hole you've ripped in someone's psyche and reputation.
Somehow, after all the years, the climbing "community" cannot figure out how to discuss "style" in an objective fashion without the herd syndrome causing people to rip and tear at the people doing the climbs worth talking about.
So far from lofting above the debate in non-commital and "objective" fashion, Matt, you are one of the worst elitists on the Taco. Show more respect for PEOPLE, even the ones you think have done "wrong" (what a ridiculous term in this context!). That is something anybody can applaud.
Now, finally, back to our regularly scheduled programming....
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 21, 2008 - 09:04pm PT
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wow-
uhhhh...
get a life pal.
where to begin:
1) my reading of the attempts for repeats on your route have been that pedro says it's too scary and the others seem say it's really not worthwhile (what did AM say? something more polite like "it's just not the type of climbing that interests me").
2) if you are using a drill bit as a chisel, that's a chisel. maybe it's the lack of a chisel that keeps turning back the 2nd ascents? either way, it's done, and if you want to think of your route as being a sought after 2nd ascent, you go right ahead and see it that way pal.
3) plenty of people are far more offended by this route than i am or ever was. i think the route sounds kinda cool, except that i'd hafta aid the 5.13 corner (at least).
4) i will say whatever the hell i want about your route. get over yourself already. why do you even care? am i the ONE who will judge you? ('i think knott', to respond in the ST vernacular)
5) yes, i think the example of your route is a GREAT argument in favor of the style in which this route was established, and yes, i think these gys showed more respect for the rock itself than you did (and obviously they have much more collective experience than you did).
6) as far as my discussion w/ bob, he seemed to think anyone at all ought to be free to place what ever bolts where ever they like, so long as they get there 1st, and guess i disagree, i think they ought to be used as a last resort. if that's elitist, so be it.
7) you got me on one thing richard- not much about pedro impresses me, climbing or otherwise
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 09:09pm PT
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lol... what a punt
[edit an hour later] Hilarious back edit, there, Matt. Typical tactics to add five discussion points long AFTER your original punt post and my post calling it a punt. Oh well, even with the five new points, nothing there of substance anyway.
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Apr 21, 2008 - 09:13pm PT
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It seems to me in all these bolting debates there are two sides:
1. We want to preserve the adventure aspect of the sport, as well as the rock itself and respect the true nature of these routes by not altering them.
Or
2. Everyone should have a right to experience these routes without having to put their ass on the line.
As I see it there's an easy solution. Or at least, a viable solution. Leave the route itself unaltered. If you want the experience of the route without the danger. Drop 600 feet of static line down and toprope the damn thing. There. You have got what you wanted; you got to do the route, and the hardmen who want to do it ground up can do it ground up. Afterwards the hardmen and the topropers congregate at the campfire, drink beer, and exhange stories, and eveyone is friends forever.
Next week I will dispense of the Arab-Israeli conflict with a similar brilliant solution. Thank you.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 09:24pm PT
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Matt, since you are the one having the most to say about the route in this thread, I would point you to your own advice. And, btw, you are the one not affecting perceptions about the route. That has already been done by those who have been on it. We're content about the outcome. Apparently you are not. Just follow your own advice about smack-talking routes you have not been on, and we will all find your ongoing silence to be golden.
Thank you in advance.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 21, 2008 - 09:53pm PT
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After three weeks, this thread is still goin' strong. Although there's now more chaff...
Long Ago, very thoughtful posts. Although it will be a sad day when Yosemite
climbing is degraded into something that councils needed to vote upon.
I also think it would be shameful if lesser climbers than the Growing Up
team used Growing Up as an excuse to support their shady FA tactics.
{Yes, I'm aware of the subjective points of view this entails.}
From my armchair, Growing Up appears to be one route in a thousand.
Still, I do not see it as an endorsement for rap bolting. I just
hope that others who view this route see the same.
Things are not always Black or White.
~~~
Sean, BIG energy goin' your way. Get better soon Bro.
:- Kelly
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 21, 2008 - 11:37pm PT
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Since we're on the way to post 2000, a few short remarks.
1. A lot of people are thread drunk and post-holing so, if you want folks to read and comprehend your posts at this point, it's a good strategy to keep em short, concise or at least put a lot of paragraph spaces in.
2. While the WOS debacle may be worth talking about in light of these issues, I encourage you guys to keep it simple and on the topic and don't Lois it up by making it about personalities.
3. When you start making a list, why stop when you've run out of things to say.
I respect all the folks posting here. If we dig deep enough, each individual here disagrees with every other individual here about some point of climbing ethics, style, religion or politics. We seem to have discovered this doesn't prevent us from otherwise liking or at least tolerating each other and that's progress.
Peace
Karl
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 22, 2008 - 12:43am PT
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Edit - Oops! I called out the wrong Aaron (see jghedge's post below). I apologize to the real Aaron for doing so. My bad.
Bruce
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Apr 22, 2008 - 01:43am PT
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I'm trying to figure out how big powerful binoculars from a helicopter or glacier point would be any different than rapping down and checking out the best line to finish the route from. Or binoculars from the base of the Dome.
I am glad that there weren't dead-end bolt ladder 'fingers' placed on lead as they figured out the best line to the top.
Even if they finished the line at the top of their ground-up lead, someone eventually would have connected it to the top, right?
If the top gets chopped, can someone (maybe the chopper) re-lead from the remaining 'top of the climb', using possibly more bolts and finish the route in fine style using the path they found when it was chopped, from the topo, or ultimately, from the original rap? Or is that line ethically out of bounds for any future ascent. And if it isn't, why doesn't Sean just go up there, add a few bolts on lead to his original bolt line he dropped in there for the top.
I guess I'm trying to figure out if the line is considered ruined now that they looked at it from above on a rope instead of from another vantage point with binoculars. JB doesn't give them FA credit, but from my understanding of his reasoning, no one will ever get that credit for that line now.
I think it would have made everyone happier if they had used the rap line to scope out the line, then approached from the bottom and done it all on lead, right? Or is rapping to scope out the route so much different than using binoculars and should be shunned?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 22, 2008 - 08:36am PT
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if someone told you that they drilled a bolt ladder on rappel just how f***in lame would you think that was anyway?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 22, 2008 - 11:52am PT
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"don't Lois it up "
LOL! Nice!
Do you think she does forum searches for her name when she logs in? Something like this might draw her out. I'd rather fight a Yetti, personally.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 22, 2008 - 01:27pm PT
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A lot of the difficulties labored over here appear the moment one decides to change the rock. Suppose you do not decide to do this. Then the rock either provides you the weaknesses you need to climb it or it does not. If it does not then by definition the problem is that you are not good enough. Finding one's limit is after all why we climb. In either case the resource is left unchanged for others, still with only its natural weaknesses formed more than 100,000 years ago.
On the other hand if one wishes to change the experience available to others you might do it this way. Get a 2000' static line and top rope the whole face. With a top rope you can explore the whole area and piece together just the line you are seeking. Keep in mind you will still be criticized, and very rightly so, by the people who would have preferred a 5.13 climb instead of the 5.12 you created. But that is not a problem. Those other people can just go ahead and change the rock to suit themselves, just as you did.
No problem.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 22, 2008 - 02:31pm PT
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Just curious: how much does 2000' of 9mm static line weigh?
Humping that up to the summit would probably be harder than climbing the route!
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 22, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
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9 mm sounds pretty thick for a static line that is only supposed to handle about 200 pounds. I am thnking 2mm kevlar could probably do quite handily.
Handling it might want a winch though! :-)
Then there is that little problem...
How do they get the rope down there?!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 22, 2008 - 02:41pm PT
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How would you solo-TR (knott to mention rapping) on anything much smaller than 9mm?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 22, 2008 - 02:41pm PT
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1800!
(sorry, couldn't resist)
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jstan
climber
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Apr 22, 2008 - 03:04pm PT
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"Down there."
TIG, you are a smartass. Damn funny.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 22, 2008 - 03:45pm PT
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That was, a good one.
no prob, HK I've carried a 400' static rope, don't know the exact weight;PITA but manageable.
So you get five submen each with a coil of that size. These could be five different ropes, but more amusingly would be to use one rope ( a bit longer than 2k' , just to be safe) and put 400' coils on each buttbo- er partner, with rope between them. Details can be be gleaned from 'Mtneering, Freedom of the Hills' They can hike up the trail as if it were a giant glacier. The fun part would be going up the cables, 4th of july weekend would be the optimal date for this adventure. Then leave it up there for further shenanigans.
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James
climber
in between climbs
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Apr 22, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
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I ran into Frank last weekend in the Valley. He's solid-fired Autobahn and Dreamscape last week. Likes his slabs cold I guess. He's looking for partners for this thing. He's hanging around Camp 4.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 22, 2008 - 03:59pm PT
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Jaybro - too funny!
I also have a 400' static (great for siege solo TR-ing the East Wall at Lover's Leap,
bootying "stuck" gear mid-route, ect). While I like your idea for carrying the rope,
couldn't we just bribe one of the YOSAR guys to drop it off during a helo-exercise?
I mean, as long as they happen to be going up there anyway...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 22, 2008 - 04:01pm PT
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Well, in that case, it would be hard to call it Trad-top rope rehersal, pre-inspection.
BTW, that must have been pretty wild having one rope down the whole Leap, good times!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 22, 2008 - 04:13pm PT
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Preplaced trad toprope preinspection
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 22, 2008 - 05:48pm PT
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Good times indeed. Drop the line down The Line, rap down, climb up. Move the anchor
over to Psychedelic Tree or whatever, rap down, climb up, Repeat till yer pooped.
I never did get around to ever leading the Royal Robbins classic Fastasia. However, I
would never even think of dropping a TR onto the whole show, although I've seen it done.
That's knott how I roll. If and when I ever get the sack, it will be a proud ground up ascent!
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 22, 2008 - 07:49pm PT
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Thanks, Richard. You have a style with words that trumps sixty year old mantras and ancient debates no longer relevant.
Arguing for people and events as individual and unique is a sign of modernism.
Matt... what's wrong with Pete? Its ok. I can't climb A5 too.
:D
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 22, 2008 - 07:54pm PT
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I wanna shut this thread down...
LEB, can you post up a thought or two? thx
heh
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jsb
Trad climber
Bay area
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Apr 22, 2008 - 11:53pm PT
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bump!
just saw this thread... must have missed it the first 1809 times around. ;)
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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Apr 23, 2008 - 12:57am PT
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I must have missed a similar sentiment back there somewhere (who could read it all with vigor?) BUT, does anyone ever talk about the audacity of rockclimbers thinking that THEIR 'ethics' and opinions are SO godawaful important to a discussion about wilderness, or national parks or anything related to a large granitic mountain of such beauty? What about all the other users of this resource?
Or, in other words, who cares about some line up the side of Half Dome. It's not yours, it's not mine, it's a rock inside a national park and climbers aren't the definitive source of all morality around that. This issue is not so damned important. There are important ones around there, near there, and more on the horizon. This ain't one, though.
Put a potato in your own exhaust pipe. ha.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 23, 2008 - 12:59am PT
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Hey, what's going on here? Did I miss something?
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 23, 2008 - 03:52am PT
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O.K. I just finished drawing up the new topo. I never could find the original. I know I will, It's just buried in a room full of climbing gear. Really buried !!!
Anyway this one came out pretty good looking considering I'm up at midnight using my snake bit finger as an excuse to be loaded on vicodin.
Don't be scared of me being crosseye drawing a topo of a 2,000 ft. route though. Remember, there's so many bolts up there and even bomber anchors to get down on if needed. You can't go wrong.
I can't be sure because I haven't done the whole original south face route, but it seems like if you were on the upper wall trying to descend. When you get to the huge roof (that would be the anchor above the "escape hatch" ) if you were rapping on 2 60m. ropes, you would be able to get onto Growng Up and then to the ground.
Holy sh#t !!! maybe we should go and demolish the lower part of GU as well. By doing it, It possibly made the descent from SF safer and more efficient. Yep, we'de better go and chop all the anchors on the lower wall even though they were put in in "good" style.
I talked to Ken Yeager today and he said he'd help me get the topo scanned when I was finished since I can't do that here. I'll get it on there asap. Sorry for the delay.
Sean.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 23, 2008 - 03:55am PT
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Blowboarder,
Sorry I haven't called you yet. Not trying to be rude, I've just been maxed out.
Peace,
Sean.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 23, 2008 - 07:17am PT
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Hardman, obviously I was not thinking anybody would want to rap 2mm line - note the comment about the winch and getting the rope "down there".
Small line hauled to top by belayer. The only problem is getting one end down to the climber. As you know, one can and usually does walk off Half Dome - no rappel needed.
The winch allows enough friction to handle the line - which any normal belay device would not have.
:-)
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Apr 23, 2008 - 12:06pm PT
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Not you, not you, man. Hell, you'll set a bad example. Pretty soon we'll have guys bolting up blank walls all over the valley.
-TM Herbert to Royal Robbins in 1964 after RR used 38 bolts on the Prow.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 23, 2008 - 02:57pm PT
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The Fet wrote: Not you, not you, man. Hell, you'll set a bad example. Pretty soon we'll have guys bolting up blank walls all over the valley.
-TM Herbert to Royal Robbins in 1964 after RR used 38 bolts on the Prow.
Those who preach are speaking to loud to hear what they saying.
Hypocrites!!
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 23, 2008 - 04:42pm PT
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Then why are you preaching ......
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ec
climber
ca
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Apr 23, 2008 - 05:23pm PT
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from: Harding's "Downward Bound" I like the caption...
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 23, 2008 - 05:25pm PT
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" Blowboarder,
Sorry I haven't called you yet. Not trying to be rude, I've just been maxed out."
Right. I'm sure whatever you've been up to is SO important.
j/k, glad your out of the hospital.
Check your email and try not to snort out (now snort up might be fun...) your pain pills when you read the bit about the invalidity of old school ethics because they were put up by d00ds wearing spandex tights.
For shame, trad-dads.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 23, 2008 - 05:27pm PT
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You can do better than that Werner...
Tell me how there is a higher force looking over Half Dome and that he will have the final say...
Royal, you, Scott and the likes are doing the preaching..not me.
I can easily accept other styles in climbing...unlike others here.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 23, 2008 - 06:47pm PT
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Ok, so I've read like 90% of the posts here, and I really don't see what the big deal is. I, for one, will not be able to climb any part of that route in my wildest dreams. I might like to try one day...or not. But there's like a million other routes that I will never be able to touch. So what? Someone will be able to climb it. Good for them.
People get so hung up on ethics. Let it go. I don't see this route as a "sacralidge" at all. Spray painted graffiti, yes, but a climbing route? no. I read Doug's post. I don't think they did anything wrong at all. In fact, it sounds like they worked really hard on that route, so good job guys. Way to go.
Well, I'll admit that my mind is pretty warped, but that is my perspective from where I'm sitting. I just don't think it's that big of a deal. =I
[Local Beta Edit]: You know what is a big deal though? Man, they got this burger over at the Grand Sierra Resort (Old Hilton) that is like a pound and a half of beef, or something obnoxious like that, for $7.77! And, it even comes with a big 'ol pile of french fries. I mean Jeezus man, now that's a BIG FRIGGIN' DEAL! =)
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 23, 2008 - 07:19pm PT
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"Royal, you, Scott and the likes are doing the preaching..not me.
I can easily accept other styles in climbing...unlike others here."
Atheists and agnostics preach too.
Telling us to accept, telling us why we should accept, telling us what we should accept: it's all preaching.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Apr 23, 2008 - 07:25pm PT
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the problem is rap bolting promotes more routes w/many bolts.
yosemite climbers have a "leave no trace" climbing style.
and a huge respect for all "GU" F.A's...
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Apr 23, 2008 - 07:31pm PT
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just to weigh in my thoughts here, when i first read the article and understood that they had rap bolted the upper half of the south face, i was not really bothered by it and didn't really give it a second thought. i've done a couple of ground up routes that petered out, at least for me, and they are bolts to nowhere. i can see the temptation to avoid that syndrome on such a big face by rappeling from above, and after it has been preinspected in this manner, well, the ground up adventure is lost forever, ya might as well rap bolt it.
after reading many, but not all of the post here, i still feel they didn't really do anything wrong. i was surprised by all the backlash that sean and doug have recieved. god, protesting over rap bolting is like, so nineteen-eighties. this war was lost a long time ago in tuolume when locals(tommy herbert, ron kauk) and visitors(craig reason, dan michaels) begun rap bolting some of the most difficult routes in tuolumne. i thought it would get out of hand, with rap bolters competing against ground up people, but in reality, there was room for both styles. kauk only did two rap routes on medlicott, and there is still room up there for the future badasses to employ either style. i don't think one rap route on half dome is going to change things.
werner talks about respecting the rock in a way that makes doug and sean look like they don't respect the rock, when in fact, i have to defend these guys and say hey, i think they respected the route and made their decisions out of not wanting to do a ground up botch job. although all my first ascents in Yosemite were done ground up, ground up slab bolting is a long last art, and i really would not ask to impose that style on anybody.
coz, werner, bachar, klaus, the kid, and others, i'm sorry you consider GROWING UP to be evilution, and you might be surprised by my opinion, but i just guess it is a sign of the times that i consider rap bolting to be acceptable in yosemite, and that once it is acepted, there really is no difference between rappeling the 600' medlicott dome, and the 2000' south face of half dome. curiously enough, i relayed this issue to my wife, heather, who was in the "shame on you" category about doug and sean. now i wonder in our divided household, how did she come about to have such a strong opinion on the matter?
Steve Schneider
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 23, 2008 - 08:21pm PT
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Steve
Thanks for the post. Tell your wife no more Rap Dancing for Bandaloop. Only ground up art from now on!
Peace
karl
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 23, 2008 - 09:42pm PT
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Steve, please tell me Heather didn't think all those spr0t climbs in Thailand were ground up.
the problem is rap bolting promotes more routes w/many bolts.
yosemite climbers have a "leave no trace" climbing style.
haha, that is hilarious. Ever go aid climbing? Nothing like a bolt ladder or a string of heads to scream out "NO TRACE".
It's purely a matter of personal belief. To believe it's more than that is ridiculous.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 23, 2008 - 09:52pm PT
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"leave no trace"
Definately a funny there.
What has prevented the valley from being grid bolted isn't so much the ground up ethic, as the ban on power drills. Nothing like hand drilling 3/8" holes in hard granite to stymie all but the most truly motivated.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 23, 2008 - 11:12pm PT
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Steve
Evilution, hahaha
You sure have me pegged wrong.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 24, 2008 - 12:15am PT
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shipoopoi, looks like you are trying to have it both ways:
”i don't think one rap route on half dome is going to change things”
Ah, but when Kauk does a rap route in Yosemite, that, you assert, is a precedence showing that things are changing and should be accepted as such.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Apr 24, 2008 - 12:50am PT
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[strike]The proliferation of all the rabbits shows the lack of predators in their habitat. This shift will continue until an outside force, such as disease, curbs the current trend. The influence of predators culling back the rabbits won't happen until the humans relax the pressure applied to them.[/strike]
Oh....never mind....I thought this was the rabbit thread.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Apr 24, 2008 - 01:05am PT
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you know whats funny, this thread is going to make rap bolting anything a big reward in the forum world, so now it gets even worse!
i mean rock climbers are ego junkies, they live only for themselves...
they forgo f = ma for a shot at missed motherly love, but the big time never comes,,,
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 24, 2008 - 01:26am PT
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Why is a set of bolts on perfectly good rock that leads to nowhere, or rather more specifically, no particular place, always seen as a botch job? Every half pitch route that goes up to a set of anchors would be a botch job on that standard. We enjoy those just the same.
If a line can't go GU in a GU area, it's ok to not have the route go to the summit, or rather not come from the summit.
Again, it's not that rap bolting in general is bad, but it seems if there is to be 'space' enough for 'both' types, then we need to reserve that space for GU hand bolting on slabs by not setting precedents that condone a rap style.
But hey, I didn't see anyone else with motivation getting up doing routes on that face (not that I even have enough energy to hike up to Liberty Cap)
Maybe it's time to try and do another line up there in a GU effort all the way this time. It will be hard, and it will take many people's efforts. Send up a stuntman with helmut, come back down, send up the next stuntman. Loads of fun!
Best all,
M
ps- I'm just pushing to 2k posts.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 24, 2008 - 09:26am PT
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I'm truly hoping that those with less skill and experience than DR and SJ, don't start to think it's open season. It doesn't seem to be the case though.
I'm also starting to think that unless a really serious trad team strikes the next blow with something ground up and high quality, we'd better just leave these guys some peace.....
and keep our pie holes shut.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 24, 2008 - 10:23am PT
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Thanks, Steve, for chiming in with support. Of course I like it, because you're huge experience and seasoned viewpoint comes down on our side.
And it also helps me see that I've been a little unbalanced in my response here, rising up to defend against detractors but more silent when someone agrees with us.
So thanks for the support. Thanks to Steve and to everyone else who'se spoken up here. And to the silent majority choosing only to lurk who also agree. Thanks all! I liked this line:
...god, protesting over rap bolting is like, so nineteen-eighties. this war was lost a long time ago in tuolumne...
Decades later, and the sky hasn't fallen. No grid-jobs, even in the Valley. Plenty of blank rock left -- here, Tuolumne, on Half Dome -- to be climbed in either style.
Peace.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 24, 2008 - 11:12am PT
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I gave a few examples of routes done in GU style in RMNP and 10-15 years later...much to the disdain of the critics...the sky hasn't fallen there and there has not been a rash of rapped-placed bolts ladders/routes.
Doing these types routes is just way too much work that a large percentage of climbers won't/don't do.
Nice post Steve.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 24, 2008 - 11:48am PT
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(survival wrote)
"I'm truly hoping that those with less skill and experience than DR and SJ, don't start to think it's open season. It doesn't seem to be the case though.
I'm also starting to think that unless a really serious trad team strikes the next blow with something ground up and high quality, we'd better just leave these guys some peace.....
and keep our pie holes shut."
I also, don't think we are going to see a bunch of sprout routes pop up everywhere because of GU. As I'm sure you all know how much time and effort it takes to put up even a small route and not botch the roots out of it. I think most climbers are repeaters rather than installers. The hay-day is over for the masses. Highly motivated climbers may run out and put up a new route here and there but they have to find it first. Especially if the route is going to be close enough to ding your car door on. There is plenty of rock 1 or so miles from the road that route farmers could plow. But they won't.
As far as a (TRAD) FA team striking the next blows. I have a sneaking suspicion that S.J. may be ready to strike. Be ready to soak up some venom and ready your pie hole.
hahahahaha
Blair.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Gunks, NY
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Apr 24, 2008 - 02:08pm PT
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I'm quite new to climbing and I'm somewhat bashful about posting to this thread seeing as how I have read books or magazine articles with many of you featured in them...and I have never done any first ascents of anything...yet-- but I wanted to weigh in just so far as to say that reading the amount of passion and well thought out logical concern that has gone into both sides of this debate really inspires me (hopefully others also)to not be flippant about issues of respect and ethics- something I feel is happening with a majority of "noob" climbers.
I feel that the consideration of ethics in the decision making process is ultimately more important than the final decision itself. If that consideration is maintained, then there will always be room for a variety of styles, and all will be applied responsibly albeit not universally.
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Brian Kimball
Sport climber
Westminster, CO.
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Apr 24, 2008 - 02:55pm PT
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I would like to chop all of the (unnecessary free climbing bolts) on Dihedral Wall!!!
Do you guys prefer GROUND UP or RAP CHOPPING?
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Leavittator
climber
san diego, ca.
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Apr 24, 2008 - 04:21pm PT
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good one Brian. Someone who would like to chop it (Dihedral Wall) should climb it free and report to Tommy Caldwell which ones were superfluous. For me, I plan to (hopefully) climb Growing Up because I suspect it is a fantastic route.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 24, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
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Besides being too often stated, my opinion does not count. This is an interesting question however.
Whatever decision we make on bolts, I do think we might consider taking the hangers off say 10% of the most obviously self-serving placements, have them gold plated and reinstalled so that we may be reminded.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 24, 2008 - 05:03pm PT
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i'm with you, John, you have a wry wit!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 24, 2008 - 05:20pm PT
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DR: Decades later, and the sky hasn't fallen. No grid-jobs, even in the Valley.
not sure about that... reports filter in about "Nuts Only Cliff" which are not too good. And there are more and more lines with more and more bolts... I've been on some of those route FAs.
Fortunately, there are still pure crack lines out there... unclimbed or climbed and forgotten... which make excellent adventures.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 24, 2008 - 05:27pm PT
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There you go Ed, stick to the crack routes, and it will all be fine.
Mind over matter=If you don't mind, it doesn't matter.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 24, 2008 - 05:29pm PT
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Hi Randy,
Glad you're interested in Growing Up. I know you'll like it.
Before he got sidetracked by snakebite, Sean was working your new route, that leaning corner .13d -- name's skipping me right now -- and he was raving about it.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 24, 2008 - 05:34pm PT
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And there are more and more lines with more and more bolts... I've been on some of those route FAs.
Ed, are you saying that routes are growing new bolts? And bolts growing on Nuts Only??
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 24, 2008 - 05:35pm PT
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Hi Ed,
I figured someone would bring that up. Glad it was you, with your balanced view old/new, trad/sport, crack/face.
Can't wait to do your new line at Reeds. I've been looking up there for years, wondering why no one...
Maybe see you at the Ahab session tonite?
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 24, 2008 - 07:38pm PT
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Ed
I read something about reports from Nuts Only Cliff being bad. I must say, I'm amazed that somebody actually made it up there. Figures it had to be some crack climbers that love to hate bolted lines. They just went to the wrong cliff. If you love climbing cracks, go climb cracks. You can tell from way down on the road below that Nuts Only is a bad cliff for a crack lover anyway. I did every one of the new lines up there about a decade ago. For any climber that wants to go to a place with a killer view of the valley below, nice crispy edges instead of a bunch of slime and grease(better known as glacier polish)and hundreds upon hundreds of feet of all out amazing climbing. Go to Nuts Only by all means.
There's a 5.12c arete up there called "close to the edge" You can't miss it. Hands down one of the best for the grade in the valley. No second ascent to my knowledge. Oh yeah, I rap bolted it. I guess it never had an ascent to begin with. Can't remember,I may have even pink pointed it. Better hurry, you can get up there, on sight it and place the draws while you do. Then you can one up my ascent 2 times over in one shot.
Oh f#ck, did I say that ascent word again. Sorry John. Someday I'll get the picture. Hey Ed, this is not directed at you, I just started it with your name because I read it from your post. I don't know you and I'm sure you're a great person.
Bottom line everyone, Bolted routes are nothing new to Yosemite. There is so many of them. In the valley, in the high country, and all in between. The climbing is so good on so many of these faces. It' amazing to me how much resistance people have to this way of climbing. Just like snowboarding. But look where snowboarding is now. Climbing already is where snowboarding is. Everywhere else in the world. But not Yosemite.
I've lived in this canyon for 20 years now. And grew up not too far down the road from here for many years on top of that. More than ever lately, I've been watching people sit around and complain about EVERYTHING ! Sitting in absolute HEAVEN and bitch to no end.
Big valley trad climbers bitch like nothing I've seen in my life. Yet the same mother f%ucker walks over to the gas station, pumps his big high impact car full of gas ( gas that our PROUD country is blowing the F$CK out of a bucnh of people and even worse, people's children for ) then drives down the road blowing pollution all over and pulls over to ..........
Go Trad climb. Big clean mother f$cker. Pulls out out his nice rack of gear with nylon slings( some wonderful company's surely killing the f#cking planet to make for us all ) and goes off for a big day of "clean climbing" Sorry but there's no such thing as a clean human doing anything.
Thousands. I mean thousands of trucks FULL of concrete have been pouring into Yosemite over the last few years espessially. Sewage backs up in the pipes every summer and dumps into the Merced. World hunger rages out of control. The ice caps are falling apart. The polar bears and many others are clinging on for dear life.
We're all spoiled rotten to be able to take the time to climb anything. Any day. If you want to sit around and bitch, bitch about something bigger. Better yet, Get off your ass and do something about it.
I could go on forever. I need a break from this computer.
Im not pissed off either !!!
This is just the way I feel and I'm not afraid to say so.
You know I love crack climbing by the way. Do tons of it. Even on FA's. Always looking for the path of least resistance or the most natural lines first. Why do you think Growing Up takes 1,000 ft. of cracks getting to the headwall ? That's the longest stretch of continuous cracks on the whole wall.
Another thing I really want to add here is how much respect I have for all the badass climbers of all walks. I always have.
John Bachar, Scott Cosgrove, sorry we've exchanged some tough words on this thread. You have your ways and I have mine. But by no means am I saying my way is THE way. You guys kick serious ass. Always have. At one point I was screaming about bringing up the $10,000 deal of the past. Stupid. John, it would scare the sh#t out of me to try and follow you around even now.
And Scott, it would scare the sh#t out of me to go send SB. Why do you think I haven't done that route. Same reason as everyone else. They're f#ucking scared and they should be. But there's alot more going on in climbing than just that. Your ways aren't the only ways just as my ways aren't the only ways.
There's alot of ways things go down these days. To me, They're all good. Something for everyone.
More than once this past winter I witnessed valley locals say
F$ck those climbers from the bay area. Who cares if our fixed lines hanging all over and bug them. This is our home. For real.
"f$ck them"
I'm personally sick of people with shitty attitudes in climbing or anywhere else. It's a beautiful world out there. One of the coolest things to me about this world is how different so many things are. And how there's room for all that to exsist under one big roof.
Better get off this brain sucking computer.
Peace !
Sean.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Apr 24, 2008 - 08:05pm PT
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Okay, so I am finally going to post on this. Higgins just asked me to put this up; I had it on Jstan's tangent thread where it was basically being unread. So here:
Why is there a question whether Kamps would have left that Fairview route for a future generation? He did in fact leave that route for a future generation; he made it clear. Tommie and he did not go up there and aidbolt the sucker. They left the big question unanswered. They faced similar situations in other years too, of course. And handled them in this same way.
Most of us have done FA and FFAs here. And probably all of those of us who have, have also left uncompleted perhaps quite a few more project routes, often finished by others, later. Often because the rock would not yield so easily. I can think of nearly ten routes myself.
The biggest problem in first ascents is often not just the silly moves; it’s finding your way through in regards to both path AND peril---kind of the “general meaning” of the route you are creating. Moving your rook on the chessboard is easy; the challenge is to where and what will happen? Otherwise 12 year old girls would be doing it in pedal-pushers, as Bridwell used to say.
To come up with a ground-up first ascent can be easy of course, and it also could be unbelievably toilsome and dangerous. Like Worrill’s route on Basket Dome. Just amazing amount of diligence, tenacity and I guess real power, in the end. Such stories are common in the history of rockclimbing. So Growing Up: SFHD obviously had already been a tremendous amount of work and hard as hell by the time they got to the top of the arch. And by the way it does not seem that the whole effort was a cynical cinematic undertaking, just a bit helped by the moviemaking of DR and crew who ran out of money anyway. I am sure Sean was plenty into climbing the gorgeous thing however he could. And most of us know that any route back there is going to be a very technical, difficult and huge-assed project involving a base camp, extra people, hiking your butt off and so forth. That is why there really are so few routes of any size back there. In short, a fabulous adventure in retrospect . And a huge gift to subsequent parties, maybe.
From that point upwards the route was deceptive and unclear, but the house party was only beginning I gather. One can’t honestly be surprised that at this point they came from above to try to find a way through the chaos and blanks up there. Almost everyone in the group was having personal crises and the project was costing a hell of a lot of money too, which very few climbers actually have much of. Time was flying by too. And they felt they had earned the right to use the modern stylistics of previewing and staging....after such a noble effort in the first 1000 feet. Going back down without a summitting would have been a very embittering experience. Others have pointed out a summit was not necessary to have claimed a fabulous route, but this idea is theoretical, not a human one.
At this point, all climbers up until and thru the 1970’s would have either just started bolting (as Warren had) or come back down, pissed off, and go work on something else, pretty sure no one else in the style of the day would have much better ideas.
But in the present day, we have these new, other tools and a couple emerging styles. So Sean and company knew that if they had gotten this far, having completed the most difficult part of the route by far as it turns out, others would use previewing and others would stage it and finish it. The Hubers have shown us how, all over El Cap.
So, doing this, what did the party miss out on and what is now precluded from the future for all of us? Does the route now take on the qualities of an engineering project in its second half supported by insanely novel 5.13 ground-up climbing underneath it? Will the wonder of that never-to-be first onsighting leader figuring his way through that last 1000 ft of heavenly craziness above the arch be now lost to us all forever, a wonder that undoubtedly we would have shared in ways by the anecdotes, perhaps articles etc that came from it and also became our lore? As we have for over a hundred years of climbing writing? Is the second half of the route now a large gym route? And might we find some day that there actually is another way to do the second half that then becomes the best way since there is no story to this second half; it is not a leader’s solution to this immense natural entity but a solution established by mechanical methods? Rapbolted routes often turn out to be sort of off the mark when you climb them....Or are we now simply at the point where none of this matters, the route is established, let’s just go do all those cool moves up there? Is their route an armature for great things to happen up there still? I guess we will see. All of us stand before these queries; I don’t know the answer but see these questions when I try to figure out what to say.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 24, 2008 - 08:15pm PT
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this is not a comment about Nuts Only Cliff, or about good/bad...
but, there are lines that were put up in minimalist manner with R/X ratings and the intention to go back and fix, that have been bolted over by people who got to the cliff and figured they were the first, and pushed the line in a different way.
A lot of the problem is that we only report new climbs through guidebooks these days, and the guidebook business is just doesn't keep up with the route production. And the fact that there is not a coherent Valley community.
As it was for as long as I've been climbing (nearly 40 years now), people looking for new areas and new climbs are secretive about their projects. One of the consequences of that is the possibility that the climbs are repeated, and equipped differently. This does happen, it has been happening, and it is indicative of the ever decreasing amount of cliff out there.
I'm not preaching, I hope I don't sound preachy, the only thing I think is a problem is that there is not a lot of communication about what is going on in the Valley, where I have been most active in the last 10 years (or so). Waiting for the next Valley guide isn't going to cut it with the current route production rates.
And by-the-way, being categorized as a "crack climber" is sweet, thanks you guys! I really like to be thought of as just a climber though...
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 24, 2008 - 08:16pm PT
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Your trapped inside my cyber world
Consumed up as my web unfurls
No secrets left for your mankind
My virus lurks throughout your viens
I'm spreading there inside your brain
A trojan horse that eats your mind
At speed of lies I will connect
I search and surf as I connect
Computerized catastrophe
Your information's what I steal
I scan you till you are unreal
Transmit your power into me
You're lying in my cyber world
You're dying in my cyber world
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Apr 24, 2008 - 08:19pm PT
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One guy can't do much about Polar Ice Caps, Polar Bears, World Hunger and the rest of the planets problems.... but..... one guy can make an impact when it comes to bolts. Some "Big Clean Motherf*#k" just might. Grouping all that other worldly problem crap in with your routes significance is just BS. Rant on, but it is getting kookier by the minute. Stick to doing routes, in whatever style you like, and leave the ranting to the kooks.
Side note: Fuk man! Snake! Finger! YOWZA!!!!! Hope it is on the mend.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 24, 2008 - 09:45pm PT
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The Ripper
You're in for surprise
You're in for a shock
In Yosemite town streets
When there's darkness and fog
When you least expect me
And you turn your back
I'll attack
I smile when I'm sneaking
Through shadows by the wall
I laugh when I'm creeping
But you won't hear me at all
All hear my warning
Never turn your back
On the ripper
You'll soon shake with fear
Never knowing if I'm near
I'm sly and I'm shameless
Nocturnal and nameless
Except for "The Ripper"
Or if you like "Jack The Knife"
Any back country peak
Is where we'll probably meet
Underneath a dull moon
Where the air's cold and damp
I'm a nasty surprise
I'm a devil in disguise
I'm a footstep at night
I'm a scream of the fright
All hear my warning
Never turn your back
On the ripper...the ripper....the ripper
B
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 24, 2008 - 11:02pm PT
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Sh#t, we are all so lazy!
I'd be sorely tempted to go up there, bring a ledge and a some beers, and just aid the cracks, A1 the bolt ladders, send the slab and have the second (or first, nor non Ascent) It's some kinda perverse glory ain't it? and fun too!
It' just that it's a long hike and that 11d slab might not be stick clippable!
I can't believe we have this many posts and nobody has bothered to go up there and play rock!
peace
karl
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Apr 24, 2008 - 11:09pm PT
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2000!!!!!!!!1
Wait...what?
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Apr 24, 2008 - 11:10pm PT
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I think it's a f#cking travesty that this thread seems to have overshadowed Supertopo's All-Time Greatest Thread. Hell it's not even on the front page anymore. Rubbish!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 24, 2008 - 11:28pm PT
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Gee Sean,
for being so down on all the "bitching",
that sure was a lot of bitching up there.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 25, 2008 - 01:18am PT
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Sean,
[Nuts Only Cliff]
> There's a 5.12c arete up there called "close to the edge" You can't miss it. Hands down one of the best for the grade in the valley.
I've seen the shots by Shawn Reeder of you on it, and I figured it had to be up in that vicinity (higher above the road than Little Wing).
Looking at a list of 12c climbs that I know of, you could be right, given that there are not a lot of *** routes in that grade (or maybe not a lot of 12c routes in the Valley overall):
46. 666 5.12c *
55. Punchline 5.12c **
59. The Principle 5.12c **
149. Satanic Mechanic 5.12c R?
188. Zipperhead 5.12c
207. Meltdown 5.12c ** TR
306. Psychological Warfare 5.12c **
368. Highlander 5.12c
423. Owl Roof 5.12c
611. Close to the Edge 5.12c
641. Gates of Delirium 5.12c ***
1019. Follywood 5.12c **
1431. The Shining 5.12c R **
1446. Hang Dog Flyer 5.12c **
1570. Escape From Freedom 5.12c **
1768. Hall of Mirrors 5.12c R ***
1842. Psychedelic Wall 5.12c
1983. Lost and Found 5.12c *
2189. Mama 5.12c
2307. Croft Arete 5.12c
2344. Take Da Plunge 5.12c TR *
2350. Wicked Gravity 5.12c ***
The list is from my current project of an online guidebook update. Some routes may be out of order at present, and I haven't assigned stars to most of the new routes (Gates of Delirium is an exception because someone I know well said he thought was ***).
In Tuolumne, I bet the competition would be tougher for the top 5.12c climbs, given that there is a lot more sustained face climbing up there.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 25, 2008 - 02:02am PT
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More than once this past winter I witnessed valley locals say
F$ck those climbers from the bay area. Who cares if our fixed lines hanging all over and bug them. This is our home. For real.
"f$ck them"
I hope that wasn't me... I did note ropes in a TR thread... Werner pointed out that it shouldn't really be there as it might attract the wrong attention and I edited the reference out of the post. Didn't bug me a bit, sorry if it came off that way.
But it does raise an issue of reading into what's posted here, an imperfect form of communication. It is all so tiring. You all do live there, and that's wonderful. I suspect we envy that a bit...
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 25, 2008 - 02:32am PT
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that fixed line gig is getting to be a pretty tired act.
word on the street is that after this winter season, it's not likely to be tolerated again.
abandoned property?
wilderness?
what?
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jstan
climber
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Apr 25, 2008 - 11:12am PT
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DR:
Actually I think what with Facelift and ST a whole lot is happening as regards Yosemite's community. This thread itself speaks volumes. (There was always community in C4.)
By the by no community is always in total agreement so I believe that is not a realistic condition for admitting the existence of community.
EDIT:
A huge number of local non-climbers are supporting Facelift. On the way in to Facelift3 by train I ran into people in Merced who were excited about what is happening. Another couple of days during that trip I got to work on route 120 with people from Fresno and other towns.
Yosemite has a huge community of supporters all through California. Yosemite is our crown jewel. Yosemite is not simply a place to go climbing.
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bwancy1
Trad climber
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Apr 25, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
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From Porkchop Express:
"...the amount of passion and well thought out logical concern that has gone into both sides of this debate really inspires me (hopefully others also)to not be flippant about issues of respect and ethics- something I feel is happening with a majority of "noob" climbers."
To me, this is perhaps the most poignant post in 1800. Ten years from now, climbing style/ethics will be totally different. Just like the eventual acceptance of sticky rubber, chalk, friends, and every other travesty of style and ethic that is now the norm. Like the price of gasoline, it never goes back my friends.
GU is just a tiny chink in the armor. The "flippant attitude about respect and ethics" by many newer climbers is the Rough Beast that slouches towards the Valley to be born.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 25, 2008 - 12:25pm PT
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In another thread Roger wrote that he heard there was a party on the South Face.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=583197&tn=0
Coz responded with
"Can they be reached on their cell to swing over and chop growing up, I'll pay ten bucks a bolt."
While folks on all sides have had moments of being upset in this discussion, coz has called for chopping twice now and it seems like an elephant in the room. I got a sick feeling last night that a few 'less talk, more walk" types might be tempted to make the statement of removing the route.
For me, that would inspire deep negative emotions (read way into the lines here) and feel like a big setback to all that we've tried to accomplish in discussing it on this thread.
What you do think? How much negative consensus is needed before chopping is public service and not an assault on the climbing community? If someone can decide, "Screw you, It's a free country and I"m chopping growing up!" is it equally fair to say "Screw you back, Southern Belle is an elitist death trap and I'm chopping it too!"
Want war?
How do we not go there? Is everyone prepared for where that might lead us?
At least Robbins actually climbed the Dawn Wall. Calling for a route chop without climbing it or seeing a topo goes too far when the characters involved are as credible as Sean and Doug.
I wouldn't be bringing this up but Coz has spoken twice now and I know some of the Yosemite Bolt police enjoy getting everybody's panties in a bunch and the attention this has created may be a catalyst. Can our community decide what's "Too far" versus what's "Not great style but tolerate" without getting into violent chop fests?
PEace
Karl
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Apr 25, 2008 - 12:32pm PT
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hi, a few responses here
werner, sorry if i have you pegged wrong.
slipnot, kauk bolting in tuolumne was a huge deal because it was among the first rap bolting in yosemite. at the same time, routes like punchline in the valley were causing fisticuffs. but now, almost 20 years later, rap bolting has been around for so long, and fully become a recognized style here, so i don't really see what the big deal is. i sure ain't gonna write no freaking poem here.
mungeclimber i don't necessarily agree that bolts to nowhere are botch jobs. if they become huge aid drilled bolt ladders, well, that might not be the prettiest thing. i think its one of sj and dr's argument to go topside, they respected the rock enough to not place unnessary bolts indiscrimantely on the face. i kinda buy it.
doug, thanks for the thanks
poopoi out
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 25, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
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“At least Robbins actually climbed the Dawn Wall. Calling for a route chop without climbing it or seeing a topo goes too far when the characters involved are as credible as Sean and Doug.”
Fact check: Robbins began chopping the route before he had climbed it.
The topo will have little if any bearing on whether rap bolting is inherently bad (which is the point of this thread, I think).
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 25, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
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shipoopoi
I offer no argument against the significance of Kauk’s rap bolting. But that doesn’t address my point which is that you argue conflicting views: 1) Kauk’s opening up drilling in Tuolumne should be taken as precedence setting, 2) Chill out, GU is no big deal as it doesn’t have a larger impact
“rap bolting has . . . fully become a recognized style here, so i don't really see what the big deal is”
Wow, that’s quite an assertion. Rap bolting has become “fully recognized” in the Valley??? If that is the case, I could only concur with your conclusion ‘I don’t see what the big deal is’. Previously you called the ground-up ethic so “1980’s”. Yeah, and it is also so 1970’s, 1960’s, 1950’s . . . . Don’t take one decade of an era and then dismiss the entire ethic from that decade as simply a bygone fad. What has happened is basically this: The sport climbing trend swept the nation back in the 90’s. Because that trend is less appropriate for Yosemite granite and because there is/was a strong and traditional local culture, the trend has been stunted in Yosemite. It seems that this thread boils down to this:
SHOULD RAP BOLTING IN YOSEMITE BE A FULLY RECOGNIZED STYLE?
If the answer is “yes”, then why are reading this thread? After a topo and TR are available, then we can debate whether or not it was a good route.
If the answer is “no”, then what is the proper response?
Other thoughts:
I accept Sean’s sincerity for intending to create a route with other’s in mind. Sean, while I don’t endorse GU, I apologize for being sarcastic in a previous post in which I questioned your intentions. That was wrong on my part.
While I don’t think HD should support rap bolted routes, chopping the route would be a mistake. If the answer to the above question is “no”, an appropriate response is to reaffirm that rap bolted routes in Yosemite Valley are not welcome and will not be celebrated.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 25, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
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"Previously you called the ground-up ethic so “1980’s”. Yeah, and it is also so 1970’s, 1960’s, 1950’s . . "
I thought it would be cute to mention the first ascent of Lost Arrow starting from it's top but heck, that was controversial at the time too
Peace
karl
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 25, 2008 - 03:17pm PT
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Lost Arrow Spire FA was in the 40's, I believe.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Apr 25, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
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DMT wrote:
"Pretty simple... no one owns that rock, so called locals, so called Bay Area faggots, uber doobers from Austria, NO ONE."
But left out: way homo sperm burpers from Fresno. They should be included.
-JR
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 25, 2008 - 05:02pm PT
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yo,
i think "Bay Area faggots" and "Uber Doobers from Austria" would be cool route names, fwiw.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 25, 2008 - 06:05pm PT
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"mungeclimber i don't necessarily agree that bolts to nowhere are botch jobs. if they become huge aid drilled bolt ladders, well, that might not be the prettiest thing. i think its one of sj and dr's argument to go topside, they respected the rock enough to not place unnessary bolts indiscrimantely on the face. i kinda buy it."
aye, fair enough, I've not been up there, nor could I climb at that level for that sustained amount of slabbage. Feel the calf burn.
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climbactic
climber
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Apr 26, 2008 - 08:12am PT
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Whew! Talk about the Gates of Delirium! I just waded through the ENTIRE thing in two days. Full disclosure: I'm not a climber though I've been dragged up a few easy classics, Snakedike, Royal Arches, Cathedral Peak and even Overhang Bypass... After living around climbers for almost 30 years I would normally never deign to comment on a forum that includes contributions by significant climbing royalty (especially after Russ Walling's brutally hilarious synopsis) but after literally reading the whole thing out of fascination I feel I've paid my dues plus I'm posting for the good of everyone (!)
This has been a great thread, Cosgrove shouting "Thief!", Bachar's naked emperor analogies, Doug R.'s full soul-searching disclosure, Sean's signature stream-of-consciousness, and where would this rant be without Karl Babaji's "enlightening" and measured philosophical musings, sounds like he and a lot of others had much fun. Even Steve Schneider made a late appearance and broke ranks with the "old school". I think my favorite comment was by Kevin Worrall, "Some people inherently cling to the past and tradition and are threatened by change and new ideas. Others see new things with an open mind and welcome a fresh perspective. The latter rarely impose their morals on the former. That's human nature."
I caught on to madbolter1's extreme sarcasm pretty quick "Come on herd!" it was damned funny, that! I forgot to mention Werner's often cryptic posts, the one about the Bachar document for establishing "ground-up" rules was particularly mysterious...
Was Bill Russell in there? Ken Yager? Great posts by Blair D. and Ben Montoya.
It's been groovy. Thanks so much!
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 27, 2008 - 12:09am PT
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Alright, enough talking. Let’s get off the computers and into the wilderness to do to some serious camping.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 27, 2008 - 12:26am PT
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Sean and Coz last posts seem to have canclled each other out.
Looks like you all will have to start all over again from the begining .......
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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Apr 27, 2008 - 01:23am PT
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GU, has nothing in common, it is a low angle slab that can be stance drilled. THE SOUTHERN BELLE WAS ALL DRILLED ON STANCE, ALL EXCEPT ONE BOLT ON THE SECOND PITCH.
No, actually, it has one thing in common at the very least - it was rap bolted just like your JTree routes. IMHO grade has little rational in this arguement but that point is probably moot to you. It's all relative to your own *personal* perspective.
1. When you drill on stance the bolt is always in the right place, it's harder to stop and drill then to just clip.
I agree here. But it would be ignorant to assume that their bolts are "misplaced". With due consideration it's rather easy to also place bolts on rap in the "right" (clipping) place. In fact, it's rather easy to "assume" that bolts are in the right place and in fact in more "right" places for clipping (though reducing the sack-up-I-gonna-die-if-I-fall value).
2. All other ascents use binos and studied the face to find the right way, and never got lost.
Simply, Doug and Sean rap-bolted a climb that could have been done, stance drilling, all their arguments are not logical in the face of the facts. I am greatly shocked that anyone would buy their arguments, all of them have been proven wrong.
No, this is a blanket statement. To say it "could have been done" that way, well, I call BS. You don't know. You were not there. You didn't attempt. Your statement is essentially nothing more than an opinion without factual knowledge and is as meaningful as all of my rant here (READ: worthless on the grand scheme of things).
They took a big step backwards, and their rational, money and time; they lack any kind of real respect for the future and their act was far from self-less.
I'm sure you noticed that some agree and others do not. Why? 99% of the climbing population would never sack-up and go do SB. Sissies. Oh well. Concensus says that most of us are happy to take a risk but not a death-risk. Such is life (which, I really sort of like).
I feel the bolts should be removed by the first descent party, and the mighty face be climb on it's own terms. The South Face is one of the last great places to climb, in free-stance style.
We all gather that. I hope they are not removed. I hope to read of reports of the second, third, 27th ascent and have people rave about the route. One thing I do know is there is a riduculous amout of rock out there. That Doug and Sean ethically did something "wrong" (to some) means little to me. Adventure at the cutting edge of death is missing from this route.
I find it very sad that no one seems to respect anything anymore, maybe it's the times or lack of education. Maybe the mindless media has turn us into spirt-less drones.
Respect? Do you mean like respect as in the rules in Yosemite that there will be no motorized drilling? Our arguement as to rap VS. ground-up affects very little. Your bust on EC could have had major implications with respect to our collective access to climbing in Yosemite. Where was the respect there?!?!? (different because you felt the Park rules unfair? [VS well founded {laugh} eithical rules]) I call hypocrasy plain and simple. Your actions with a motorized drill on EC risks way more to our sport than Doug and Sean's can even touch. The opioniated stance you take bothers me.
Just my thoughts, DR and Sean if you did the climb on stances and protected it well, you wouldn't have to tell the world what great climbers you are - they would know, be humble and do the right thing.
Scott, I've watched you from afar - 20+ years climbing - and have to draw difference with you in this case. Times change. People change. Sh#t happens. I'd love to make you sushi one day and discuss. My opinion is nothing personal on anybody ever. But I'm sure my comments didn't make a friend. My commments stink just like everyone else. Oh well... I'm sticking to them.
Peace, Nature
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Brian Kimball
Sport climber
Westminster, CO.
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Apr 27, 2008 - 02:22am PT
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Of topic: Does anyone know if the threads are hangin' on E.L.D?
Back to Dihedral Wall: Does anyone know if Todd added those free climbing bolts on lead or on rap?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 27, 2008 - 10:51am PT
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You're right, Werner, he does like it. Hi coz!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 27, 2008 - 11:00am PT
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Coz, you should go out there and repete Southern bell and then climb GU. Then you can tell us which one is more fun;)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 27, 2008 - 01:20pm PT
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That was kind of my point. Does the world really need more routs that even the FA won't repete?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 27, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
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tradman, you can still toprope it. hike to the top. no one has to lead everything. cheers.
coz, I wouldn't say this... "the ends justify the means, and all morals and values are out the window." even in jest. people will think you have changed your mind and accepted it for the area. you personally don't have to accept. Others may. We all might accept it, but you definitely don't have to.
edit - reread, for sarcasm. check
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 27, 2008 - 01:39pm PT
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one more post for pushing to 2k
it's the principle, you see.
quantity has a quality all its own.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Apr 27, 2008 - 01:56pm PT
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I have read every post, some more than once.
A highlight for me was Tom Higgins sharing with us some wonderful remembrances of time spent with Bob Kamps. I have about .01 cents worth to add to his words. I bouldered regularly with Bob at Stoney point for about ten years. I was fortunate to rope up with him a few times in Josh, Tahquitz Rock, and even once in The Meadows. Bob set such a high bar regarding matters of style. It meant nothing to Bob Kamps if you, or he, could get up a hard set of moves. It only counted if you made it look easy!
What is the relevance of such a sense of style? It sharpens the game.
Much has been said here to the point that the next generation should and will do things in a different style than their predecessors. Few are willing to take the stand however that certain “new” styles are changes for the better, while others are regressive. Take the clean climbing revolution, certainly an example of a progression in style. How about Alex Honnold’s recent accomplishments both on sight leading and free soloing! Pushing standards in style beyond a doubt.
In the past few years there have been so many amazing developments. El Cap, recently the domain of the aid climber now has numerous free routes being done in a day. People are climbing without bolts, and sometimes without any protection at all on harder climbs than ever before. Name who you will. Pick what examples suit you. We all know what is going on. Free climbing is being revolutionized. Just as it has been in the past and will be in the future. The best climbers are refining and sharpening the game every day. And those whom I admire the most are capable of discerning what style of ascent is the best path towards their goal. And they understand that a goal has no meaning without context.
This is the arena which two climbers, neither one of them exactly a representative of the next generation, stepped into when they decided to do a top down ascent on the great South Face of Half Dome. Sean Jones and DR have argued, with passion and eloquence, the reasons for their choice. Yet their actions leave climbers wrestling with many questions.
Is it true, as Nature says, that Coz’ rap bolting a one pitch 5.14 sport climb in Joshua Tree is no different than establishing a climb like GU from the top down?
Is there something about certain walls, such as SFHD, which set them apart from other climbing venues? How one feels about this will lead one to or away from the conclusion that this new route somehow takes something away from the entire face.
Does every rock wall need to be climbed regardless of the tactics required to create a route which is acceptable to a majority of climbers?
(Of course my phrasing of these questions betrays my feelings… )
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 27, 2008 - 04:20pm PT
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coz, I've ready both Collapse and Guns Germs and Steele. Where is the connection here?
The only real climbing is ground-up, onsight, free soloing, using only your hands and feet for upward progress. Everything else is a concession of some sort, and a shade of gray. So why are any of us arguing about this?
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Apr 27, 2008 - 04:26pm PT
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Sean asked me to post his topo for him. This should be good for another round.
Have at it.
Ken
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 27, 2008 - 05:15pm PT
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sweet,
i was worried this thread would be just a line of bolts to nowhere-
but now i can easily see the path to the summit (2K posts, that is), and the weather looks good...
(note to self: return in about 103 posts)
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 27, 2008 - 05:57pm PT
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Got the map, now if ever I learn to face climb...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Apr 27, 2008 - 06:58pm PT
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I just want to be sure I am reading the topo correctly.
Every pitch on the route has a bolted belay / rap station.
From the belay at pitch 13, at the end of the traverse, five additional bolted rap stations allow for a direct descent from there instead of reversing the traverse and rapping the route.
The route has somewhere around 180 bolts not counting the escape rappel (I really tried counting but the ADD kicked in and I lost it.)
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 27, 2008 - 07:38pm PT
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K-bone, count'em again and tell us what you get, we're closing in on 2,000, and I need to see something noteworthy accomplished today. =)
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 27, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
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Is the bolt count correct? Are you sure its not just a bunch of X's to fill in spots? Sometimes I see topos where just a line of X's means a line of bolts, i.e. not the actual count. Just curious, I don't really care either way.
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ec
climber
ca
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Apr 27, 2008 - 08:56pm PT
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nothin' else to say...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 27, 2008 - 09:00pm PT
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All speculation and hear say so far except from the party who climbed the route. Looking for a report from someone when they do climb the route.
Scott...the face has been there for 22 years since you did SB...you snooze you lose.
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Apr 27, 2008 - 09:14pm PT
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Dang it, Bob! You stole my line to coz by mere minutes.
But in the interest of getting a real climbing thread to 2k posts, I'll post anyway.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Apr 27, 2008 - 09:51pm PT
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" ...Are you sure its not just a bunch of X's to fill in spots? "
Ummm. He says 18 draws plus lockers for the belays. I see 18 bolts on several of the pitches.
How about the escape route? Like I said about 1K posts ago. Convenience is the order of the new day.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 27, 2008 - 11:03pm PT
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183 bolts on the route... sorry to ask but, what kind of bolts did you use? in particular, how are they going to be maintained...
and looks like crack climbing low, but beyond where I am climbing (not only am I a crack climber, I would venture to guess that I'm just a weekender duffer).
Thanks for the topo.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:19am PT
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Sean, just out of curiosity, how long have you been climbing? Just curious as to your climbing influences. Do you think those informed your decision to go the way you did, or were they not really part of the equation? No ill will intended. Truly just looking to understand the process. I'll try and email you later, rather than clap trap the taco stand. Going to sleep now.
one more post to 2k, tho! :)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:21am PT
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1907 posts divided by 183 bolts = 10.42 posts/bolt.
Brought to you by the SuperTopo Department of Meaningless Statistics and Associated Thread Bumping.
Jaybro edit: 183 bolts/21 pitches = 8.7 bolts/pitch. There seems some doubt as to the exact number, and perhaps ten of the 183 may only be part of the 'direct' rappel route, so the ratio may be lower.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:27am PT
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How many other routes of that length have 10.42 bolts per pitch?
Dept adjunct to Ander's chair.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:33am PT
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haha, bluryr eye'd
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:47am PT
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Every belay has 10mm stainless Raumer bolts. These are the same quallity as Fixe stainless. Lets just say they will be in really good shape in a very long time. Many of the bolts on pitches are the same but not all. The rest are a bit lower of a grade of stainless redheads. I've used these in many places and am still clipping some that were put in almost 20 years ago. They're in great shape still and have a long way to go.
No bolt on the route should be needing replacement for 30 if not 40 years and the Raumers even more. I'll either be dead or at least 80 years old by then. I'll make a promise right here and right now to deal with this myself when needed. Either do it myself or pay someone to do it. Unless I'm living in a van at old age and living on dehidrated potatoes and way broke.
I don't really see that happening though. I'd like to think I could get my sh$t together by then. I'd like to think that replacing bolts by then was a bit easier and a bit less barbaric than now.
Then again maybe some super motivated f#ck will just go out and chop them before all that and save us all.
Went climbing today for the first time since the snake bite. The finger isn't perfect but is getting better really fast. Still feel really sick though. I feel very lucky to be back out at all. Can't wait to be full force again. Big plans for this year.
Hey, here's something I've been thinking about.
If someone climbed the bottom 1/2 of GU to the top of the 14th pitch,and headed left a bit then straight up, they could add an all new finish somewhere near the big black streak,on lead of course. You would have passed beneath all of the top down upper wall by staying off of the 15th pitch.
No problem going far enough to the left to not squeeze GU. Do check into where I think it's Lost in space that cuts through the upper wall to not f#ck that up. I think there's plenty of room for all that though and not even be close to a squeeze job.
An all out amazing opportunity to go up there, do the most beautiful line on Earth and show everone how it's done. And not have to deal with any of the labor that went into the lower wall.
Speaking of not squeezing, in one of the photos of the so. face,
it looks as if GU is not so far left of SB on the upper headwall. That's just the way one of the photos looked to me. Fear not though, GU is hundreds of feet left as it cuts through the upper wall. It's very spacious up there by saying hundreds of feet left, I mean 400 or so. No logical line will ever exist between GU and SB. Not without making a mess and doing 16 pitches of GU then going right and up. That would pretty much suck.
The line I mentioned going left of GU and up would not suck. But you really want to pay attention to where Lost tops out or it could suck. Just thought I'd mention that because my sights are set on other things and I'm not one of those people who want to try and hoard all the good lines nor am I worried about there not being enough rock left out there.
I know first hand and probly more than many just how much rock is really out there. In the sierras alone. It's absolutely mind bogelling. Really.
Peace, get off the computer,go climb, and try to remember to have fun out there.
Sean.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:41am PT
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Something else to think about, All of the pitches on the upper wall are very long. One has 15 bolts, 2 have 14 bolts, and one has I think 19. These are 200 ft pitches and very sustained. Even the 19 bolt pitch gives you an average of 10 ft between them. That's 20 plus ft. falls on steep slab and 30 plus ft. falls on the others. As the climbing gets easier up high, there's probly a few spots to take 4o plus ft. falls. With all the hard climbing below, the concept of falling up there is quite possible.
As much as some may want to think of this as the light wieght route on the s.face or the route for the masses, you may want to take the time and REALLY think about where this climb is.
And just how sustained the entire route is. Not for a second should anyone think that the S. face is a safe place to be. EVER.
Even with the options to get off of the route, epic weather and
injury could take you down fast. I can't say this more clearly, there's NOTHING safe about being on that wall or any wall for that matter. Don't take it for granted.
Another thought or two. This project took 41/2 months of my life over. Probly ran in and out of there around 40 times dealing with family stuff, getting the bills paid,grocery runs,birthday parties for the kids,t-ball and tons of logistics for the wall itself.
You can bet your ass everything was VERY thought out the way the route came together and would be left behind. One thing I really thought of was the way climbing in Yosemite is. And how this wall may be most commonly done in the future.
Most hard core aid climbers don't really tend to be super hard free climbers so the upper wall is a bit of a problem. And there's only so many people that just run around blasting up 2,000 5.13's in the back country.
No question in my mind that the most common use of this route in the years to come will be the high speed, french free the bottom and be forced to free the top approach. The same as the NW face is now. This route is laid out so well for that type of climbing as well as the bad ass all free attempts.
The bolt ladder is laid out to not need aiders and just pull through. Light wieght and fast ascents of this route will almost surely be the norm. Yet only by climbers of a certain level.
Lots of thought was put into this as well. Hell just run up, do the first 10 on GU, then 5 classic free piches on S. face route,
The first 3 pitches of SB (killer crack climbing) and 8 piches on Laid to rest out right. That's 26 epic piches of crack climbing and a few more killer ones at the base.
It's all good !
GO !
Sean.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 28, 2008 - 03:10am PT
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So, the FA party was talking about rapping in from the top to save damaging the rock with more holes than necessary on dead ends if they were to do the route ground up. Now, Sean admits that they placed the bolts in the A0 bolt ladder close enough so that you could do the moves without having to resort to using aiders. That seems like a contradiction from the rationale stated above.
If the FA team really wanted to save on bolt holes they should have spaced out the bolts on the ladder as far as possible. This may seem like nit-picking, but if saving holes was really one of the reasons they rap bolted then every unnecessary hole contradicts that goal.
This seems like another "convenience" move just like the escape rappel route and further erodes the goal of trying to minimize damage to the rock.
Bruce
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 28, 2008 - 03:15am PT
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Sean + Ken,
Thanks for drawing the topo and sharing it. Much easier to visualize the climbing now. Thanks for including the freed pitches on the original South Face as well. I will try to make a better photo overlay, using the topo and a photo taken from a better position.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Apr 28, 2008 - 05:37am PT
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Wow, hard to believe this is still going and even harder to believe no one has gone up there to climb it or parts of it...
My contribution to the 2000th post...
This comment;
"You can bet your ass everything was VERY thought out the way the route came together and would be left behind. One thing I really thought of was the way climbing in Yosemite is."
...brought to mind the following poem and it made me reflect a bit on the two.
From Thomas Merton's interpretation of Chuang Tzu, The Way of Chuang Tzu.
THE NEED TO WIN
When an archer is shooting for nothing
He has all his skill.
If he shoots for a brass buckle
He is already nervous.
If he shoots for a prize of gold
He goes blind
Or sees two targets-
He is out of his mind.
His skill has not changed.
But the prize
Divides him. He cares.
He thinks more of winning
Than of shooting-
And the need to win
Drains him of power.
This is not ment as a judgment but simply as a refelction.
Cheers,
DD
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 07:58am PT
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Coz wrote
"They took a big step backwards, and their rational, money and time; they lack any kind of real respect for the future and their act was far from self-less.
I feel the bolts should be removed by the first descent party, and the mighty face be climb on it's own terms. The South Face is one of the last great places to climb, in free-stance style.
I find it very sad that no one seems to respect anything anymore, maybe it's the times or lack of education. Maybe the mindless media has turn us into spirt-less drones.
Just my thoughts, DR and Sean if you did the climb on stances and protected it well, you wouldn't have to tell the world what great climbers you are - they would know, be humble and do the right thing."
I think it would be just as rational, although perhaps not as popular in our hero worshipping culture for me write:
"Dave and Coz took a big step backwards in their ascent of Southern Belle, and in their rational of saving money and time; they lacked any kind of real respect for future climbers and their lives and well being. Their act was far from self-less, it was ego aggrandizement with lack of regard for their own welfare and for those who would follow. The nature of hard slab climbing is insecure enough that virtually no one can count on not falling so X-rated hard slab climbing is asking each climber to play a game of Russian Roulette with each ascent.
I feel that bolts should be added to Southern Belle by the next ascent party, and the climb opened up to party with more than a dysfunctional respect for their own lives. The South Face is one of the last great places to climb and classic lines shouldn't lay as rusting testimonies to the 2 days in 20 years when a couple climbers gambled their health and future on some holds that make dimes look like jugs.
I find it very sad that some of the Elite don't respect others, maybe it's the need to be "Special." If you claim 2000 feet of rock for your route, create it so it can be climbed by those not open to suicide. Maybe the mindless media has turn us into spirt-less drones, who glory in the acts of 'supermen' trying to show us how superior they are. The only guy to do a second ascent has free soloed 5.13 and even he was scared. Is this really a good use our a limited resource?
Just my thoughts, Dave and Coz, if you did Southern Belle and protected it well, you wouldn't have to tell the world what great climbers you are - they would climb your route and be grateful for it, be humble and let others make a generous choice for the future instead of a selfish one. Folks play Russian Roulette rarely enough that they don't need 8 guns to play with on the SFHD."
food for thought and more posts
Peace
Karl
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Apr 28, 2008 - 08:57am PT
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Where's Nuts Only Cliff? I've googled it but can't find a reference. Just curious.
EDIT
To Peter's post below this one, thanks Peter, sound like a cool cliff.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Apr 28, 2008 - 09:07am PT
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Patrick,
Nuts Only is reached along with Audobon Buttress by hiking up the partly avalanched-out Old Big Oak Flat Rd about 1/4 mile west of El Cap Meadow. You reach the Little Wing Area this way also. Some great short free climbs amongst these features.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 28, 2008 - 09:18am PT
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I don't think having SB climbed by lots of climbers to admire their greatness was ever the goal.
Climbing has always had a lot of routes that stand there aloof and say "This is badass, don't even bother to think about this climb unless you are ready to be badass."
SB is certainly in that class. I think climbs that demand respect and put all us mortals in our place are a good thing. I like knowing that I'm a good climber and yet that there are places I have no business going. Where are the badasses of today, the Sharma's and whoever the flavor of the magazine is?
Does this mean they're not great climbers? No. Does this mean they're not skilled enough, brave enough, ballsy enough to stand next to Walt, Dave and Scott? Probably.....What's wrong with them knowing that there's a place they probably don't belong also? Nothing.
This is not a condemnation of GU, but a defense of Southern Belle. That said, I remind you again that someone can feel the door open to creating the easiest aid bolt ladder on Half Dome back there because all these pro-GU arguments can be used just as well for them.
We can't have a whole face monopolized by these death routes, can be read as we can't have a whole face monopolized by these 5.11-5.12 free climbs. We only want to leave a climb with great bolts that will last forever, that will be climbed by lots of people that will agree what a great location our bolt ladder goes up.
This, in turn, is not a condemnation of Sean and Doug and their co-climbers. I am only interested in the larger question of our future direction.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:07am PT
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Survival wrote
"SB is certainly in that class. I think climbs that demand respect and put all us mortals in our place are a good thing. I like knowing that I'm a good climber and yet that there are places I have no business going. Where are the badasses of today, the Sharma's and whoever the flavor of the magazine is? "
There are just as many badasses today. Moonlight Buttress was just free-soloed and recently Astroman and the Rostrum were soloed in the same day. Why do folks in this thread keep asking what happened to the good ol, bold ol days when it's clearly not true.
You say you're not condemning Doug and Sean but this thread exists because some are doing exactly that. Coz has clearly done it, in as respectful a way as somebody is likely to condemn somebody.
It's likely to be either "live and let live" or drill a bolt in the one or two stances available per pitch. Somebody go climb the dang thing and tell us whether drilling on stance/hook every 10-20 feet is possible or not. If it's not possible, we really are debating whether we want all the routes up there to be museum pieces for those without family or care for life to do.
What percentage of routes on a face or area do we really want to reserve for the death-defliers? (who don't seem to care to defy death very often if you think about it)
Your post asks who the badasses are today?. I'd ask "who the bad asses were back in Coz's day" when this supposedly fine route went up? If folks were so bold and proud back then, why didn't they climb the damn route back in the good old days? Coz and Dave weren't the only ones on the top of their game back then.
There are folks posting on this thread who could have done Southern Belle back then and some arguably even better and bolder than they were. Why didn't they do the route?
I'll tell you why, defying death might seem worthwhile for the glory of a first ascent, but not for the guys who come after
... except if you're Dean Potter. (some might argue he has to please his sponsors, or himself, with boldness because so many other climbers crank at a much harder grade)
This argument., to paraphrase: "I like knowing there are better climbers than me and thinking in my mind that their badass route exists somewhere." If that's so important, let the badass free solo routes and we can look up to that. Then the glory story will exist forever and the rock will still exist for those who perhaps have a wife, or a kid, or aren't angsty enough to trust their life to a 5.12 smear.
Peace
Karl
Edit: I think that Coz is just hurt because Southern Belle is his greatest testament to himself and now there's a route next to it that's just as pretty and not so stuck up.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:22am PT
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Sean and Doug.
Thanks for the inspiration; awesome adventure.
Thanks for the time involve to put up this wild new route.
Thanks for the money spent out of your own pocket;...it aint' cheap.
Thanks for the cool pics to thrill us.
Thanks for stimulating our climbing world to have conversations that are sometimes soul searching.
Thanks for being away from your loved ones during your adventures;....lots to sacrafice....those of us with children know it's hard to be away from our little ones.
Thanks for creating a route in the style YOU have chosen to climb; afterall, it's your F A.
Thanks for trying to have civil conversations with others who find your climb controversal;.....everyone does lots of things in their life (both on and off the rocks) that is considered controversal.
Thanks for, once again, showing us that to think "big" and you get a "big" adventure.
Thanks for using stainless steel bolts.
I just wanted to say thanks for the good stuff that this climb represents;....as for the negetive stuff generated from this climb.....look and you will find them easily. The Southern Belle is an awesome climb and has it's place;....but I believe there is room for others. Diversity can be embraced.....as a kindergarten teacher, I see all sorts of forms of life;....I try to love them all.....no matter how strange, different, or even "creepy" some seem. I'm not saying I agree with every aspect of your ascent personally,...but I do find much of it very facinating, interesting, wild, and awesome.....and to that I say Bravo! Having 3 infants at home has helped me to appreciate adventures I had in the past, and adventures I look forward to in the future.....both on and off the crags. If you find this climb and it's style of FA to your liking (And you are experienced, motivated, and talented enought to climb such a route), Go do it; I'm sure you will have a grand time. If you don't find this climb and it's FA style to your liking, then don't do the route and go climb something else somewhere else. I do alot of FA's myself, and I've pissed off enough people to know that I'm just doing my thing, and when you create, you piss people off;......I don't get too bent about it....now a days I'm just way happy to have a day or two at the crags every now and again.....Climbing is still a blast for me......Climb on.....
Todd Gordon
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:31am PT
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To even begin to think that someone is climbing to defy death is 1000 light years away from the mark.
A statement such as that is pure speculation and shows poor fund of knowledge.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:33am PT
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Thank you Werner.
Karl,
Soloing Moonlight Buttress or Astro/Rostrum in a day isn't "death defying"?
You don't have a problem with one form of "death defying", but you do with another.(SB) Because there's a few bolts on it? Nobody said that todays hotties can't solo there either.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:39am PT
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Werner wrote
"To even begin to think that someone is climbing to defy death is 1000 light years away from the mark.
A statement such as that is pure speculation and shows poor fund of knowledge."
Your claim to know what other climbers are climbing for is just as speculative and so is your claim to know about my fund of knowlege.
In addition, you take a figurative statement and try to make it literal. You know what I meant by "death defying" so why twist it and turn it into a "wise retort?"
Peace
Karl
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:46am PT
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If you feel the need for some soul searching or to prove what a bad ass you are just go solo something. Put up sketchy routs on gear or whatever but once you put drill to stone you should make darn shure that you put up a quality rout and not a piece of crap sketch fest. Few things more selfish in the rock climbing world than drilling a bunch of holes and laying claim to a rout that no one will ever climb because its x rated. There is nothing wrong with a spicy rout but if your intention is to put up a death rout then fer christs sake don't bother drilling holes in the rock.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 11:39am PT
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People keep thinking guys who climb at a high level and run it out are doing it maybe on purpose to create a so called death route, stupid ass speculation.
They are just seeing that idea from their safe distance sitting in a chair at home with their minds running loose and uncontrolled.
Example:
I asked Kauk years ago why they didn't place a bolt on that scary face on Geek Towers. He said he was just climbing along and felt fine. Suddenly the next party comes along and sh'its in their pants and thinks he's some badass climber and didn't care for the rest of the world.
There were many such instances in the past with many differnt people on various routes.
Defy Death, means to challenge death directly. Evil knievel death defier?
If that held true he would have just jumped straight into a brick wall with his motorcycle and claimed before hand that he was above the stringed laws of material nature, death itself.
And stop assuming everything you read here is some so called wise explanation or argument. More speculation.
Opinions are just that, opinions, I could be just totaly full of sh'it for all I or you know.
We have to gauge everything to the Absolute standard to come to the complete conclusion.
Do you all want to go there .......?
That's the real summit and goal in the climb.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:00pm PT
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Having read each and every post in this thread (yes, every post - knott just skimming through),
I feel that I am thusly qualified to make the following statement...
As we approach the 2000th post, a lot of folks are going to be jockeying for the coveted
number 2000. However, I feel that this milestone should be reached in good style.
Posting a bunch of consecutive Bullshít Filler Posts™ is a far worse violation (rape?)
of this thread than posting something substantive that happens to land at the lucky
spot at precisely the right time, IMKSHO (In My Knott So Humble Opinion)...
Please carry on in good style - the world is watching!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:03pm PT
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I loaded this whole thread into one browser window and tried to copy and paste it into Microcrap Word so see what a printed page count and word count would be, but it crashed my laptop every time.
Somebody with better technology report back so we can know if this is a grade V or Grade VI thread.
At least, it's the MOAT!
(Mother Of All Threads)
and yeah, Matt, there's no actual glory in capturing 2000 by force!
PEace
Karl
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:08pm PT
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WB your right it is all just speculation but that is the taco for you. Seriously I do know what its like to just climb allong and have fun and end up scareing the piss out of other folks who don't have the same concept of fun. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about those times when you know damn well that you are pushing limits and that your rout is going to be a statement/ challenge to your peers and you can't tell me that never happens without being full of poo yourself. Put up one of those challange/ ego routs and INMOP you need to ask yourself if that is really the legacy you want to leave behind or would you rather be the guy who is known for putting up great routs?
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:13pm PT
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Thanks Todd Gordon for having some perspective and balance in your life. Others would do well to take notice !
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:18pm PT
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Werner wrote: We have to gauge everything to the Absolute standard to come to the complete conclusion.
Do you all want to go there .......?
That's the real summit and goal in the climb.
No we don't want to go there...we are struggling here enough. :)
Crack wrote: Thanks Todd Gordon for having some perspective and balance in your life. Others would do well to take notice !
Having a wife and children can do that.
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morphus
Mountain climber
Angleland
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:21pm PT
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i'd just like to contribute to this historic thread
is this the biggest supertopo thread ever?
has LEB contributed yet? i think we should know what she thinks about this issue
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:26pm PT
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"Do you all want to go there .......?"
No thanks Werner! Been trying to steer clear of those damn absolute standards my whole life !!
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:32pm PT
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yap
yap
yap
wankwankwank
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
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Yo wrote
"yap
yap
yap
wankwankwank"
Yeah, why do people post on the internet anyway? This would be a lot better forum if people would quit their damn typing eh?
which of your 1872 supertopo postings do you consider most worthy?
Peace
Karl
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:04pm PT
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I'd have to say #785 was a real highpoint.
(wank)
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:16pm PT
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"As we approach the 2000th post, a lot of folks are going to be jockeying for the coveted
number 2000. However, I feel that this milestone should be reached in good style.
Posting a bunch of consecutive Bullshít Filler Posts™ is a far worse violation (rape?)
of this thread than posting something substantive that happens to land at the lucky
spot at precisely the right time, IMKSHO (In My Knott So Humble Opinion)..."
that right there is a total bullshit filler post!
=)
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:17pm PT
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I feel so darned ignorant on the subject at hand. If I'm climbing a route and come across a bolt, what do I do to identify it as a bolt that was placed from a stance, a bol that was placed while hanging on aid gear, or a bolt placed from a top rope?
Also, when I'm climbing a long runout section of a climb, what do I do to determine if the FA was a serious and talented climber who didn't notice the runout, if the FA was a cheap bastard and just didn't want to spend the money or had run out of money and was saving the next bolt for later, or if the FA was an arrogant jerk who wanted to create a death-route and only placed one or two bolts to keep anyone else from ever adding any more (since doing it free-solo would mean that there would be no proof of the FA and anyone else could bolt how they pleased)?
Maybe I should take up a different sport like football or even golf where there are less rules.
Dave
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:20pm PT
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People keep thinking guys who climb at a high level and run it out are doing it maybe on purpose to create a so called death route, stupid ass speculation.
Bachar, climbing with a hook, decided to run it out big time on the BY. I am sure I could go up there and find hook placements that, if used to drill from, would reduce the large run-outs.
I'm sure Bachar was feeling great when he put up the BY. But the fact is, he contrived the run outs. Surely not a "death" route, folks have taken the whipper without tragedy, but what we hold near and dear as a bad-ass standard is actually a contrived "test piece." I say he ran it out on purpose to create the so-called death route.
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:27pm PT
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k-man: I disagree, Bachar has put up some great routes, knott™ all of them " Death routes "
Go to Czech republic, where they have had laws governing how a route is established
sice the late 30's.
Some of those make the BY look tame.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:32pm PT
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Loomis, I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with. Bachar has put up some classics (I only wish I had the shoes to climb them!), and certainly the BY is one of them. I was just countering Werner's point--sometimes folks do purposely put up dangerous routes.
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nutjob
Stoked OW climber
San Jose, CA
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:48pm PT
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Haven't carved out the discretionary time to be fully informed on this thread, but feeling left out anyways so had to add some drivel.
There must be a spectrum of reasons for long run-outs on climbs:
1) Climber in the zone, not paying attention to pro
2) Climber in desperation, doesn't dare stop for fear of falling
3) Insecure: "look at how cool I am"
4) Vindictive and righteous: "my way is the right way, try to violate my ethics on this!"
this could probably be it's own thread, but I won't start it
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:48pm PT
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K-man. I think a lot of people in this thread (and in this forum in general) talk about absolutes and that hampers having a decent discussion.
I remember when Verne Clevenger put up Hoppy's Favorite on GPA. He intentionally did not put any bolts on the first pitch (5.8) just to keep the 'riff raff' off. So, yes, there are times when people create 'articificial' runouts.
Last year Clint and I replaced the bolts on a route I put up in Tuolumne Meadows(Myopia AKA UFR on Pennyroyal Arches). It is 5.10 and has three protection bolts per pitch. The reason it is so runout is because there were very few places for us to stop and drill. In fact, my partner took a pretty big whipper trying to put in the bolt which would ultimately protect the crux and the long runout above.
I don't think you can make a blanket statement about runout routes. It would be nice to hear from Bachar about his motives on BY.
Bruce
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
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kman
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:57pm PT
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that
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:57pm PT
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is a
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:57pm PT
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waste of
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:58pm PT
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bandwidth!
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 02:59pm PT
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BASE jumping to 2000 feet, anyone?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 03:21pm PT
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Karl - I loaded this whole thread and copied to the clipboard (2 Ghz iMac G5 w/ 2 GB RAM,
and it tool just over 5 minutes. Also loaded in to MacBook with 3 GB RAM, just over 4 minutes.
However, when I pasted into MS Word 2008, the beach-ball spun, and is in fact still spinning on
both machines over an hour later. I'm gonna look for another app to try this with...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 28, 2008 - 03:25pm PT
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I don't think you can make a blanket statement about runout routes.
Bruce, I totally agree with you here, and nutjob did a good quick run-down of some of the reasons we see runs.
It is interesting to ponder how routes that we consider to be done in the best style (bottom-up) can still have holes in them (no pun intended). I mentioned the BY specifically because it's a route that's held in high esteem. How dare I call it contrived! Yet, look at the fact.
Perhaps Bachar or Yerian will say "We did the route with the fewest possible holes, yet left a route that can be safely climbed."
It's a game we play, and we all bend the rules so that what we do fits into our own idea of what is acceptable. I know staunch stylists who will stand on a bolt to drill rather go back down. The rules bend just enough to allow your version of vision.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
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Update: (actually, a Bullshít Filler Post™ disguised as an update)...
Just pasted all posts up to 1958 into Apple's Pages app, and it took a mere 55 sec on the iMac.
Hang on to yer seats - well over a quarter of a million words!!
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Apr 28, 2008 - 03:29pm PT
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Wow, this is better than a movie
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 03:32pm PT
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you gotta start seeing some better movies pal
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 03:36pm PT
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LOL!! Good one!
BTW, TiG - I actually wanted the images and formatting to appear in the document.
This is yet another example of why MS sucks and Apple rules...
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 28, 2008 - 03:48pm PT
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If you say so...
But seriously, with the amount of html, scripting, and style stuff in the taco, I wouldn't use the ability to convert this page into a particular word processor format and render it as a measurement of computer worthiness.
:-)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 28, 2008 - 03:52pm PT
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It seems Pretty obvious by the number of repete ascents that the BY is a great Classic. Do any of you think that we would even remember the name of the BY if it was so absurdly sketch that no one bothered to repete it? Would Southern Bell be remembered if Hank didn't get hurt on it?? Southern Bell has certainly gained a large part of its name recognition just from this thread. There Certainly are pleanty of death routs out there that just fade into oblivion.. Just a few more rusty 1/4 inchers stakeing claim to what could have been a great rout......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 03:57pm PT
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I think Knott!!
2000 posts would not take up over 1000 printed pages. Try again.
If I've read 1000 pages here, I'm ashamed at my use of time.
Of course I'm already a bit ashamed but over 1000 pages, no way
Peace
karl
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Apr 28, 2008 - 04:09pm PT
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Hey, you guys better be careful.
P2K is powerful and potentially dangerous stuff. Aside from all the broken Window panes and traffic lights that signal green in all directions, bolts are likely to start popping out without provocation.
Posts will start disapearing and there is even talk of time reversing. Loose talk probably, but are you willing to take the chance?
Buzz
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 04:14pm PT
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Roger that
I predict P2K will cause a computer abnormality where the thread will actually go back in time, back and forth, until someone with claims to bandwidth waste and idiocy occupies the post 2000 slot. Until that time, we face 20 to 40 posts of potential nonsense (like this one)
Only you can stop retro-posting!
Peace
karl
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 28, 2008 - 04:17pm PT
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Hey! some of us are still argueing here so you wankers with the the fluff posts need STFU so we can ARGUE GOD DAMN IT!!!!
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 28, 2008 - 04:21pm PT
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postcount ++
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 04:29pm PT
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I will say, although when I started reading this, I felt and said that Yos has been and should continue to be a bastion of stylistic purity, ie bottom up climbing. However: I have to say, my thinking is changing as I read. Maybe it's the Karl™ influence.
Thinking of the difference between Southern Belle and GU, I don't know why you dudes feel so proud of Southern Belle. Ya got up it once Coz, and as you say now you're too scared to try it again. No one else even wants to try. So what? This young man Sean showed some heavy consideration of those who will follow him, and it took a lot of moxie hard work, time, skill and money to have done so. He could have banged in some cheap steel 1/4" bolts and been in and out quickly. Your calls for chopping seem to show a selfish self-absorbsion, your way only or the highway.
Did you do likewise on SB and consider others? No you just tried to get up it the easiest way possible and felt lucky to have done so once, you thought of yourself and f* everyone else eh? As Karl points out, what they generally call that is "selfish™ ", not proud.
Somehow you think GU as a ground up poundfest aid route which in turn would later be attempted free would be better. I think not, and accept Doug Robinson's explanation as not just viable but truthful and honest. This ain't the end of the world. You copping the route would be selfish beyond belief.
_
BTW: I have not seen this addressed in the other few thousand posts yet: Is it ethical to read this from the top down or do you have to read only bottom up?
Post #1979 or so depending on how many get deleted.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Apr 28, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
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ive been outta the loop for many many posts.
i thought some guy was promising to chop this route? did it happen. i recal a date in april when he was scheduled in the valley? hadn't he the balls?
this obsession with post count is very... critisizable. a minor celebration of man's folly.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 04:37pm PT
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'member when walter payton was the 1st back to gain 10k yards?
he got the record-
then he got tackled for a loss-
then he got the record again, pretty funny.
so, how many of us will get the 2000th post?
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Apr 28, 2008 - 04:55pm PT
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Who cares who makes the 2,000th post or the 10,000th post? The proudest post, the one that drew the line in the sand, has already been made.
It was the first post.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 28, 2008 - 04:55pm PT
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Prediction: Matt will now post 30 - 40 junk posts in a row, to ensure he's bracketed P2K. No matter if a few get added or deleted, he's on the money.
And we haven't even yet really examined the style in which Karma was established. I mean, just because Ken had a bunged up leg is no excuse for an impure ascent involving jumaring and other awful sins. :-)
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 28, 2008 - 04:56pm PT
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couchmaster (and others),
> Thinking of the difference between Southern Belle and GU, I don't know why you dudes feel so proud of Southern Belle. Ya got up it once Coz, and now you're too scared to try it again. No one else even wants to try. So what? This young man Sean showed some heavy consideration of those who follow him, and it took a lot of moxie hard work, time, skill and money to have done so.
> Did you do likewise on SB? No you just tried to get up it the easiest way possible and felt lucky to have done so once, you thought of yourself and f* eveyone else eh? What they call that "selfish™ ", not proud.
Sorry, but Coz can't be blamed for the runout nature of Southern Belle. Remember, Coz just did the FFA with Schultz. The FA (above p3) was done by Schultz and Shipley - they established its runout nature. Please look at the FA/FFA info. Shipley is no longer of this earth, and Schultz is probably too busy making $$ to post here....
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Apr 28, 2008 - 05:02pm PT
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"The proudest post, the one that drew the line in the sand, has already been made "
The winds of time will fill that line and and the rest of the routes on SFHD, by hook or crook...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 05:07pm PT
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Clint wrote
"Sorry, but Coz can't be blamed for the runout nature of Southern Belle. Remember, Coz just did the FFA with Schultz. The FA (above p3) was done by Schultz and Shipley - they established its runout nature. Please look at the FA/FFA info. Shipley is no longer of this earth, and Schultz is probably too busy making $$ to post here...."
So now you're calling Coz a sideman in this drama? Who led which scary pitches? If we're going to get to post 3000 before the 4th ascent, we need to hook Shultz into the time-waste-vortex of internet climbing.
I will give Shultz credit for climbing the thing twice, but will also call him a selfish wiener so he can join the sausage-fest and flame be back.
Peace
Karl
Edit: TIG how do we know those aren't retro-boobs?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 28, 2008 - 05:11pm PT
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They may be rap-down boobs. I mean, look at those braids!
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Apr 28, 2008 - 05:13pm PT
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I'll take the Euro girl over ethics any day, but of course I will drink the beers first.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 28, 2008 - 05:15pm PT
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Good point - there's two of them, and they ascend parallel to each other. I wonder how you can tell if they're 'up' or not?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 05:25pm PT
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The 1000th post is somewhat meaningless - if you were to remove all the Bullshít Filler Posts™,
we would still probably be under 1900 posts at this point. FWIW, Spencer rightfully got # 2000,
before Matt deleted the proper number of his BSFPs. Knott the best style, to say the least.
Congrats to Spencer for getting # 2000 - his legacy shall knott be forgotten!
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Apr 28, 2008 - 05:33pm PT
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bump
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 28, 2008 - 05:36pm PT
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Hey thanks dude, it's a dubious honor. I'm sure I did less to deserve it than others here, but whatever.
I just want to say that I spent the first part of today observing and helping teach a first grade class up in Incline Village today, and being around kids and seeing what some of them are going through (six years old, dad in jail, mom no-speak engleis) does wonders for putting the whole kit and kaboodle in perspective. This dialouge is not meaningless, but but there are definitely more important things to consider in life. Having said that, I really, really enjoy watching the wheels go 'round. Have a great day everybody. =)
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Apr 28, 2008 - 05:41pm PT
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Darn! I missed it, I wanted to be # 2000!
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Apr 28, 2008 - 05:54pm PT
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When will it hit 3000?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:14pm PT
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So when is R&I gonna do a breathless write-up on the epic SuperTopo Battle for Post 2000?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:20pm PT
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"So when is R&I gonna do a breathless write-up of the epic SuperTopo battle for post 2000?"
The style and ethics of this battle are too low for even R&I. The question is, when is it safe to post on topic again?
Ok, I'll try. I had never met Sean before this weekend when El Portal had it's Spring Music gig. We got to BS a little and he went way out of his way to give me a place to crash. It's obvious from his interactions with his local community that he cares about his family and community; all the people around him.
I think it's reflected in his climbing and the rest of his human relations.
That's just a data point because who we are is bigger than what we climb.
peace
karl
Edit: My the time I press Post, this will be post 2000. (my third one) Ironically, I called the 2000th poster a moron in advance so I'm thrice blessed.
At least this one is on topic.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:20pm PT
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What is the debate?
Top down is really a fine style.
Have a beer and consider it!
Chopped.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:24pm PT
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Matt, I'll let the dust settle for a bit. Good luck with that.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:26pm PT
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Looks like Matt did not even get 1000.
Must be a politician.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:34pm PT
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actually i had 1000 at 1st-
Probably dodging sniper fire the whole time...
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:35pm PT
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at what point should clinton drop out of the race?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:35pm PT
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does obama have to "win"?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:36pm PT
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or does it just need to become clear that there is no other possible outcome?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:36pm PT
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it's no fault of HIS that he ran the better campaign-
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:37pm PT
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and employed ther better strategy overall
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:38pm PT
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am i right?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:45pm PT
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If this post 2027 when I clicked on it and already 2024, ever makes it down to 2000, I get a hat trick and Matt and others should be ashamed!
But i did it anyway, just in case ya'll suck
Peace
karl
+++++
Ok I lied in a previous 2000 winning post, now deleted but copied below
++++++
At least this game is resulting in the deletion of dozens of formerly useless posts.
Like this one. I get to be 2000 again don't I?!
Peace
karl
Edit. as a public service I'm deleting my former prize winning post 2000 and reposting it here. All the crap goes in one shitter
+++++++
Screw you 2000 ho-ing whores?
Does that mean I get to be 2000 for a microsecond?
Orgasm!
Edit: I'm 1988 now.
Will Matt have to delete posts from way back to make 2000, and sacrifice his other landmark round-number posts to do it?
+++++=
Second edit
Now I'm at 2000 again! I'm quitin' while I'm ahead since there are 27 posts ahead of this, it's not worth going for the hat trick.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 28, 2008 - 06:57pm PT
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Matt, get help.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 28, 2008 - 07:02pm PT
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Matt wrote:
" blowguy-
you want my address now?
=)"
Thanks, but you're not really my type.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 28, 2008 - 07:05pm PT
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Beside Karl, & and that pitbull Coz, does this thread have anything to do with Half Dome, anymore?
Spencer, were you doing some sort of student teaching? If so, or similar, or whatever, welcome to our world! I really appreciated your perspective. I try to keep it real (more or less) from 7:30 to 2:30.
"who we are is bigger than what we climb."-brilliant!
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 07:30pm PT
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btw- the whole thread is ridiculous-
were you thinking i ought to show some respect to a 2000 post bitch-and-wank-fest?
everyone bitching about it online is a numbskull-
and that's the motha-funkin point pal!
it's a sideshow, get over it.
(how many posts is it now... ?)
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 28, 2008 - 07:47pm PT
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The internet is an amazing place.
Where else can you get, in one place, every generation of Climbing, from the Big guys that show us that nothing is impossible to the gumby lurker who is stopping on the way home from Apple Valley (lol locker) to say a few words.
and then there's Matt. Not sure what to think of that. Hopefully this thread isn't dead yet.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Apr 28, 2008 - 08:17pm PT
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"This thread is not a wank-fest."
hahaha... seriously?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 28, 2008 - 08:21pm PT
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tonight we're gonna party like it's 1999
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jstan
climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 08:22pm PT
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In order that we might get back on topic..........
One observer on the Long Ago thread complained that a bolt was chopped "without getting a consensus in the community." The asymmetry here is quite striking. Those opposed to this particularly artificial form of resource development have not pointedly called for a consensus as regards any specific bolt. Generally we have said as a policy we should find an alternative to complete freedom in the placing of these. This asymmetry is not suggestive of movement. So where do we find ourselves?
Well, on the flatirons there was a rapid and strong action by the municipality when a tax paying citizen complained about the whine of power equipment and disfigurement due to chalk in a taxpayer funded city park. On ST there was a complaint that this was an over reaction by the citizenry. I have to presume that comment came from someone whose quarterly real estate taxes for Boulder CO were not onerous. Perhaps that person does not realize we are now paying as much each month in taxes as we used to pay for an apartment? There has been an expression that we should just keep going as we are until municipalities are forced to take action. But consider. What is a municipality going to conclude when the citizens not involved in climbing are complaining, and half the people who are involved in climbing are also complaining? I would suggest they will decide the problem is due entirely to a small group of people unwilling to respect rules of any kind in the use of publicly funded parks.
Then the problem comes down to enforcement, which costs more than the municipality can afford to pay. Well, they will find some form of enforcement that is broader, deeper, and less costly.
A question. Is this really where we all want to go? I really don't think so.
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 08:36pm PT
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Jody,
Scott has a strong opinion which is different from yours. That doesn't make him an egomaniac.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 28, 2008 - 09:37pm PT
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Jody, 'Cozgrovel' is the real deal. I first made his acquaintance decades ago, now. He is passionate about his beliefs and his climbs, and he speaks his mind, even if it's not always to his own benefit. He does not speak up out of self-agrandizement. He speaks up because he feels a certain need, and he can't 'not' do so. If he feels it needs to be said, he will say it.
I don't think it bothers him that much that you or someone else doesn't agree. And I bet he really will have a beer with those guys if the chance offers itself. They may never agree, but they won't come to blows.
On a personal note, I think much of this dialog has been a good discussion of various points of view.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:43pm PT
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So to test the therory I picked up a rock and put it in my pocket.
I took it home.
The rock ran away when I wasn't looking .......
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 28, 2008 - 10:53pm PT
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Interesting insight, Coz.
Although, I would be reticent to live life by Mayvilles philosophy, lol!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 28, 2008 - 11:01pm PT
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Coz, Nice Post!
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 28, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
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Coz,
Just got in from a long day and thought I'd check the site just for the hell of it. Don't have too much time right now as the kids need story time and bed. I did read your last post though and it's very nice.
Sorry to you or anyone for the times I got pissy. I very much love life too and really try not to be an as#@&%e. Sometimes I blow it though just like anyone.
So many people say to me, don't look at super topo. It's just a bunch of pissy old f$cks that don't climb anyway. They're wrong though. I've learned alot from all this and made many new friends from it.
Sooooo many interesting people with so much to say. So many people Soooooo involved in climbing with very important things to say.
Wherever, whenever,.......beers on me. look forward to it.
I'll read more later tonight.
3,000 ? !!!!!!!!
Sean.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
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Apr 29, 2008 - 12:33am PT
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Well, if it took 2000+ posts to get to this, it was worth it.
an old f*ck
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 29, 2008 - 12:43am PT
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Well said, Scott;......I have have the greatest respect for you as a climber and as a friend, and as we get older and hopefully wiser, we can realize that climbing is many things for many people......We climb because we dig it, and we love it.......When we were younger, we took it all so serious;..it was sort of like our religion.....and we were able to accomplish some amazing things;......It's taken many years and lots of climbs and friends to help me get it all into a "healthy" perspective in my life.......you too Coz;....and you are a greater person because of it. Being talented and motivated is awesome.....at the end of the day, we are all just people, having fun, doing our climbs, and trying to figure it all out and keep the ball rolling. You know alot about climbing and people, Scott;......and you have alot to say;....and you didn't get to know so much about climbing from a magazine, a website, a gym, or a book;.......but time on stone..........your last post , I thought , was full of insight , wisdom, and good vibes............(About time you grew up and figured it out......) Good for you! Maybe as we get older, we suck more at climbing, but every now and again, we get some insight....some hint as to what is going on as we stumble through life in our blissful sunset years.......(See ya at next local AARP gathering.....we can talk about social security, medical, and geritol..and those Mo fos who hang dog, rap bolt, put in convience anchors and ..............)....it never ends,...does it?....we are doomed...........
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Apr 29, 2008 - 12:46am PT
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Wow, I will finally get a good nights sleep tonight.
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DixieGal
Trad climber
NC
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Apr 29, 2008 - 12:52am PT
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In this context it's worth drawing attention to Tony Yaniro's
route called Scirocco, on the East Face of the Sorcerer, in the
Needles, CA. This route (III, 5.12a, see "Fifty Favorite Climbs"
by Mark Kroese for details) was controversial when it was first
put up, because the bolts were drilled from hooks rather than
stances.
"We got a lot of flak", Tony said. "Everyone accused us of
overbolting the route, even though some of them are 20 feet
apart".
The interesting thing is that Tony gave future climbers license
to chop all bolts that they were willing to skip when they
climbed the route. (Twenty years later all bolts were still
there). I've always felt that this offer by the first ascent team
is a fair and sporting offer - climb it, and if you don't use
the bolts, feel free to chop.
In spite of the large mass of threads supporting GU, I tend to
share the same sentiments as Coz - be extremely sparing with
the bolt. Furthermore, I think that an act of desecration like
placing a bolt always needs to be qualified by a statement like
Tony Yaniro's: if you can climb the route without the bolt, feel
free to chop it.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 29, 2008 - 12:53am PT
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Jaybro,
I am in the process of earning my teaching credential, and working on a Master of Arts in Teaching through Sierra Nevada College. I've been fulfilling observation hours, but I'm pretty hands-on in the classroom, so I end up team teaching. I love it, but I have to admit that first graders are not my first choice. I'm one of those 5th-8th grade types of guys. I'm awkward and slightly psychotic, so the students and I understand each other, and get along real well.
I can't wait for this semester to be over. One and a half weeks!!! My wife is defending her Masters Thesis in Climatology Wednesday morning. After that, I guess there is nothing left to do, but go send that sick new route we've been hearing so much about up on the South Face of Half Dome.
What grade/subject do you teach?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 29, 2008 - 01:36am PT
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Spencer, I am a middle school Special Ed (SMH) teacher. As you mentioned you found, I (in my case a 51yr old climber (generalist minoring in OW)) also have a lot in common with my students. It's good to be with my people! In all seriousness, they really do help me see things in myself I hadn't fully realized till now, assuming I really 'get it' at this time...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 29, 2008 - 01:42am PT
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Nice post Coz.
Funny how the dialog goes from inflammatory (and then inflamed reactions) to conciliatory. We must have had pre-2000 stress.
Coz wrote
"I climbed the Southern Belle, because I liked the looks of the South Face of Half Dome. Dave and I, drunk and broken hearted(over the loss of current girlfriends to ex boyfriends), in Boulder Colorado, sat facing each other in a bar. I look down at my glass and Dave said, "cheer up Coz we can go to the valley and free the Southern Belle." I said," why'd you call it - Southern Belle." Dave answered," because some pera broke Walt's heart and she was from the south."
Too funny. How many bold routes have resulted from the right guys being dumped by the wrong women?
Peace
karl
Edit
Coz wrote
" I was solid, Karl, and an elite athlete who dream of climbing at the outer limits of the possible (spirt, mind and body). What's wrong with that? "
Nothing brother, as long as you're ready to allow others to have their dreams too.
Other climbers have allowed your team to take a beautiful piece of stone on Half Dome and make it into the shape of your dreams even though that put it off limits to them. I think we should give Sean and Doug that same benefit of the doubt.
"you can not perceive what you can not understand, so before you judge try to understand. "
Great advice for everybody. I'm cool with agreeing to strongly disagree, but as soon as the chop talk starts, before the route sees enough traffic to judge it's reality, I start calling foul.
I have this "wizard of Coz" song going through my head today after the "Almighty Coz" post. It's too funny
Peace edited
Karl
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Apr 29, 2008 - 01:45am PT
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i just rap bolted p diddy's ass.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 29, 2008 - 01:53am PT
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bhilden,
In reading backwards I noticed that right after I posted last with some explanations on how things were done and some of the thinking involved, that you had to find something wrong with that. The bolts on the bolt ladder are too close.
You know, even if I had gone up there and gone anchor to anchor. Proud as hell, someone then would have been bashing me for that. When you're in my possition, you just can't win.
They're not 2 ft apart. more like 4 to 5 ft. Not much different than any other ladder in the valley. Before I ever left the valley floor, and long before the decision to rap the top of the route, I knew I was on a mission to create the MOST climbable route on the s. face.
It's a no brainer that there would probly be alot of bolts. If I was on a mission to leave behind the least amount of holes, I would have simply made things way more run out. That was never my goal to begin with.
As for complaining about the escape route or raps to the ground. Surely soooooo many people will be glad to know that that is an option. That doesn't make them pussies. It makes them smart
One day while on the upper wall, a storm came in quickly from the east side. The way they do so commonly there. Thunder and lightning started driving bolts into the Clark range as I carried on. It seemed to be sweeping abit to the north but had us way on edge.
The sky cacked and a blot drove straight into the ground behind us in LYV. My partner said f$ck you man and started to descend as I carried on. Soon after the storm had buried the top of the dome and rain started to pour. The most epic lightning storm I have ever witnessed in my life came with the rain. Bolts were driving into the dome as I descended and waterfalls poured off of the wall.
Soaked and quickly freezing and scared for my life like never before, I carried on. Even running for the camp was scary as the blots carried on. Sitting in the tent was scary as the bolts carried on. ANYONE with any degree of hopes of living a long and happy life WILL be glad knowing that the rap route is there.
Not to mention all the other reasons people need to bail off of walls. The abillity to do a self rescue and not have to have YOSAR pluck you off the wall seems like a good thing to me as well. The more YOSAR has to keep pulling idiots off of walls is bad for all of us the way I see it.
Like I said, I was never worried about the # of bolts on the route as opposed to how and where they were placed. And seeing the line through the way I wanted it done. This line is as state of the art as it gets. Trust this and watch as history unfolds. People will climb this line and many will rave about it. Lines just don't get any better than this.
The one thing I will always take the most pride in is how my lines are left behind. Far beyond how bold I am as a climber. I don't need to prove anything to anyone about how bad ass I am. I'm not bad ass. I've been humbled time and time again and shown just how breakable I am. Espessially when it comes to women. I've seen myself down on the ground crying like a little baby. That's what I was doing up there the whole time, crying like a little baby. So sorry to all of you that had to endure being around me for that. You know who you are and all I can say is thanks for being there for me.
Sean.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 29, 2008 - 01:58am PT
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Todd Gordon,
Thank you !!!!!
For the post, the support, and the open invetation to your home all those years in Joshua Tree. I never stayed there bacause I didn't want to invade your space any more than it already was.
But I always knew the door was open. As my door is open to you and your family right now. My door is open to anyone on this post any time you're in Yosemite and just need to come down the hill and get away from the chaos in the valley. I'm very serious about that.
Sean.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 29, 2008 - 12:10pm PT
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Page 2?
I don't think so.
HI SEAN!!!!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 29, 2008 - 12:22pm PT
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Being an old bastard sucks! My walker gets in the way. Every time I think I found a nice little stance to drill from, that sucker's swinging around tangling my hammer cord.
One thing I do get better at is listening. I'll be there Wizard! Pass me another beer...
And I'm bringing my copy of Collapse -- great book -- so you can 'splain me where it says rap bolting is the tipping point for the crash of Western Civilization.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 29, 2008 - 01:23pm PT
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Note to self: Do not check supertopo while eating breakfast...
just kidding. you are handsum.
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SMQ
climber
Grand Rapids, MI
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Apr 29, 2008 - 01:50pm PT
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Contrary to what that little box on the left says, I'm not a climber at all -- doubt I've ever been over grade 3 -- but I stumbled across this thread following a chain of "hmm, that looks interesting" links and found myself enthralled. Not so much by the ethics discussion itself (as I obviously don't have any perspective from which to have an opinion), but by the very real sense of history, and, more importantly, *community* displayed, even among those of you who have never met outside of this forum.
So I just thought I'd pop in and say, if I ever *do* find the time to get off my mushy computer programmer a$$ and go learn to climb something, it will, in no small part, be because of this thread, because you all seem like an incredible bunch of people to hang out with.
Even Matt. ;-)
--SMQ
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Apr 29, 2008 - 02:55pm PT
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"So I just thought I'd pop in and say, if I ever *do* find the time to get off my mushy computer programmer a$$ and go learn to climb something, it will, in no small part, be because of this thread, because you all seem like an incredible bunch of people to hang out with."
About the only thing you will get out of the climbing community is lousy hygene, poor eating habits, how to consume large quantities of lighter fluid while convincing yourself it's beer, and an amazing series of adventures that will last you many lifetimes.
On the other hand, you could just sit in traffic and breathe smog the whole time hoping you don't get shot.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 29, 2008 - 03:01pm PT
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"Even Matt. ;-) "
hahahaha
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Apr 29, 2008 - 03:27pm PT
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Sean's post made me realize: God has been driving bolts into Half Dome from the top down for millions of years. How come he gets a pass?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 29, 2008 - 04:04pm PT
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I just loaded the whole thread at once, which took 319 seconds (5:31).
I followed TIG's advice and pasted into Word using the Paste Special command and
pasting as unformatted text. Here is what I got:
Anyone know how to remove all the space between the paragraphs? That would knock
the page-count down considerably...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 29, 2008 - 05:09pm PT
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A Legend of Half Dome
Many, many generations ago, long before the gods had completed the fashioning of the magnificent cliffs in the Valley of Ahwahnee, there dwelt far off in arid plains an Indian woman by the name of Tis-sa-ack and her husband Nangas. Learning from other Indians of the beautiful and fertile Valley of Ahwahnee, they decided to go there and make it their dwelling place. Their journey led them over rugged terrain, steep canyons and through dense forests. Tis-sa-ack carried on her back a heavy burden basket containing acorns and other articles, as well as a papoose carrier, or hickey. Nangas followed at a short distance carrying his bow, arrow and a rude staff.
After days and days of weary traveling, they at last entered the beautiful Valley of Ahwahnee. Nangas being tired, hungry and very thirsty, lost his temper, and without good reason he struck Tis-sa-ack a sharp blow across the shoulders with his staff. Since it was contrary to custom for an Indian to mistreat his wife, Tis-sa-ack became terrified and ran eastward from her husband.
As she went, the gods looking down, caused the path she took to become the course of a stream, and the acorns that dropped from her burden basket to spring up into stalwart oaks. At length Tis-sa-ack reached Mirror Lake, and so great was her thirst that she drank every drop of the cool, quiet water.
When Nangas caught up with Tis-sa-ack, and saw that there was no water left to quench his thirst, his anger knew no bounds, and again he struck her with his staff. Tis-sa-ack again ran from him, but he pursued her and continued to beat her. Looking down on them, the gods were sorely displeased.
“Tis-sa-ack and Nangas have broken the spell of peace,” they said. “Let us transform them into cliffs of granite that face each other, so that they will be forever parted.”
Tis-sa-ack as she fled tossed aside the heavy burden basket to enable her to run faster, and landing upside down it immediately became Basket Dome; next she threw the papoose carrier, or hickey, to the north wall of the canyon, and it became Royal Arches. Nangas was then changed into Washington Column, and Tis-sa-ack into Half Dome. The dark streaks that still mar the face of this stupendous cliff represent the tears that Tis-sa-ack shed as she ran from her angry husband.
From: http://www.yosemite.ca.us/library/yosemite_indians/legends.html
Perhaps there's something we could learn from the legend, or it has metaphorical applications to Growing Up.
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Apr 29, 2008 - 11:35pm PT
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Second page? OH NO!!!
Bump
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Apr 29, 2008 - 11:40pm PT
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grover
Social climber
Akanada
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:36am PT
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Thy beating is over
Horse tacos anyone?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:52am PT
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Save the babble Cozzie.... the horse is dead, and I assure you, there might only be 15 guys on this thread that understand, and I'll count myself in with those.
The South Face is DEAD! Long live the South Face!
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grover
Social climber
Akanada
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:05am PT
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In the big picture we are all right, yet all wrong.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:16am PT
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note to Coz: less posting while on wine.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:21am PT
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coz wrote: Collapse, yes, rap bolting Half Dome, I think is the beginning of the end; hope I am wrong.
You are!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:39am PT
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Cheers! you guys on both (various?) sides!
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grover
Social climber
Akanada
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:51am PT
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"but I know that like a protester in communist China, I stood in front of a tank."
People have died doing exactly that.
Is this really a comparative issue?
Where are we going with all this?
Will this ever go beyond the comfort of our homes, cafes and vans?
Would any of you say these words up-front, face to face with ?????????
HMmmmmmmmmm.??????????????
So many ?'s, so little beer.
What say you ?
mark
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 30, 2008 - 02:00am PT
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Hi coz, hows it going?
It's a matter of perspective and ideals. There is more than one way to skin a cat (what a stupid saying, I mean, who actually skins cats?). You are not wrong in so far as from your perspective you are holding true to the experiences and ideals that have shaped your life and constitute your perception of reality and your place in it. Moreover, there are plenty of others who agree with you.
You are only wrong by the standards of those other people whose ideals, life experiences, and perception of reality differ, if ever so slightly from your own. And there are plenty of people who disagree with your perspective.
If you percieve rap bolted routes on Half Dome as the beginning of the end (collapse), then you will invariably encorporate an endless list of examples from your personal experience to reaffirm your position, and further entrench your belief that you are right.
It is an odd thing, because admitting that you are wrong (and I'm not saying that you are) would require a restructuring of your constructed reality, and possibly create contradictions within yourself and your life experiences. That is why we are well over 2000 posts deep into this sucker, and acheiving very little in the way of ideological persuasion. People contilually look for opportunities to reaffirm their construction of reality, rather than to find ways to reshape it.
My words, not Bob's.
Ok, no more wine for me~~~~~~~Your turn Bob. nighty-night. SA
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 30, 2008 - 02:26am PT
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Another overlay photo guess (photo does not show certain key dike features on Growing Up and features on Southern Belle p4-6).
[Edit #1 - noon: overlay revised - thanks for Jim for posting the photo overlay from the 1993 Reid Yosemite Big Walls guide. I made the Lost Again line follow that, and I also changed the line for Southern Belle P4-6. But I'm not confident of that line because the 1993 line shows Southern Belle exiting the corner at a spot that I think is too high.]
[Edit #2 - 1am 5/1: After checking several photos, including especially Ben's, the exit point for Southern Belle in the 1993 overlay is correct, so I have modified the color overlay to change that.]
Cleaned up single page topo for Growing Up:
[Edit: changed p7 text to:
10" wide, sloping lb ]
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/growingup.pdf
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 02:36am PT
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Russ wrote
"note to Coz: less posting while on wine."
Funny, there's been a few posts from different folks on this thread that might have been affected by posting on wine.
But a lot more that were posting on Whine.
I have a couple of partners that whine and dine with me, where the original whine is drown in wine.
But I swear I'm straight right now and going to bed.
The fact is, with the way the world is going, we'll be lucky if we get around to having a problem with too many routes or too many climbers on Half Dome.
More likely $15 a gallon gas and economic rap-bolting will keep the riff-raff away and more.
Peace
karl
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 09:27am PT
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"It is an odd thing, because admitting that you are wrong (and I'm not saying that you are) would require a restructuring of your constructed reality, and possibly create contradictions within yourself and your life experiences."
Spencer, that would seem to be a two way street, would it not? If you are not insinuating that Coz is the one who's screwed up, why did you direct your thoughts toward him?
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 30, 2008 - 09:57am PT
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Good morning Slipknot,
Yeah, two way street indeed. We are all screwed up. It's all relative. There are no absolutes. I just directed my thoughts toward Coz because he asked. Not to me, but it sounded like he wanted to know. That's ok isn't it? He prolly already knows that chit anyway. Just thinking out loud. I was feeling sort of Baba-esque(tm). Also, I thought I made it pretty clear, especially in the quote that you re-posted, that I'm not suggesting that he is wrong...but then again, he might be. It depends on one's _ and their _. Just substitute the word "One" or "Ones" for the word "Your". Does that change things for the bettter?
Have a great day. I know I will, my wife is defending her Master's thesis later this morning. YEAH BABY! GIT-R-DUN!
*answers: evitcepsrep, slaedi
Nice image Clint. Looks SWEEEEET!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:09am PT
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Coz...the so called "beginning of the end" happened a long time ago as Steve stated...that so 1980's.
I gave a few examples of a routes in RMNP that created the same type of discussion and passion that GU has.
They might have been the start of something but for sure haven't been the end of the end of trad-climbing in the Park.
I saw were you stated you wanted a family...I hope that happens for you...somehow having a family (wife and children) put this rock climbing bullshit into prespective and shows what really is important.
I been married for 33 years of of the 37 years I been climbing...I also raised with my wife three children during that time. Looking back at some of the routes (r/x) I did during that time I was really irresponsible to my family and their welfare.
As to SB...you did a great job and stuck to your guns....quite impressive and hats of to you. Sean took a different path, worked hard for months to climb a really good route...hats off to him.
Let history be the judge of Sean route just as it has been the judge of SB.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:26am PT
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Spencer, Fair enough.
Edit
I still pondering the assertion that everything is or should be relative. Here's a potential new thread:
Thread title: Coz is a GW Bush Christian
Post: It's obvious, but let me connect the dots in case you missed it. He (alone) believes: that society should have a basic set of guiding values, his world view is tunnel-vision built on his own experiences, entrenched in his own beliefs, unable to admit he was wrong, unwilling to consider he was wrong, internal self-condtradictions, believes Yosemite (his environment) is "hallowed granite". Hmmm, does that mean Bachar is a Bible-thumper too!!!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:54am PT
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"...admitting that you are wrong (not saying that you are)"
and
feeling with a calm certainty that you are right.
Speaking for myself, I go back and forth between, within, those poles like some quantum entity that is, yes, a particle and, certainly also, a wave.
As good an experiential repudiation as I can find, in my gut, of trying to reach an absolute conclusion about matters of ethics and style. It ain't happening. And it's no accident that the nature of bolting on rock has spawned this question, which is starting to seem damn near eternal. 2000 posts...
I am a trad. Always started with my feet on the ground. With skill and luck sometimes reached the summit. So far, always made it back down.
This time, while listening to the stone, I got a different answer. The possibilities offered by subtle combinations of holds -- pretty darn small holds -- on the South Face, couldn't even be seen from below as they wove through the, equally prominent, patches of blankness. The opportunities to protect such a tenuous line of holds in any traditional manner also seemed remote and strung out -- beyond our personal sense of acceptable danger, and beyond our sense of how dangerous a climb we would feel comfortable leaving for the future.
So this one time, responding to the stone as I found it, I went beyond my trad self. Likely I never will again.
It was not arrogance to listen to the stone and get a different answer. Listening instead of blabbing is an act of humility.
I helped to fashion a climb I'm proud of. You're welcome. Soon it will be climbed, again and again, and we will see how others find it.
I contributed to leaving behind a legacy that is less clear cut than my trad roots. This makes me nervous. Because if you want black and white answers about how to climb a rock, they damn sure aren't here in the route we made. The guidelines from this are more "maybe," more dependent on how you see the stone above you. More your responsibility to preserve the adventure that is climbing by using your head and your heart about whatever you do on whatever stone you find.
It certainly is not a license to drill blindly from the top to the bottom of any wall you meet, hoping you can climb it. That is artificial, theoretical, and arrogant. It's not listening to the stone.
Good Luck.
Be Careful.
And Peace.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Gunks, NY
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:57am PT
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Tradition is a means to an end, that end being consideration and care for the abstract ideal embodied in the tradition itself that can subsequently be passed on. It is possible for an ideal to outlive a tradition that once was its very safeguard. When people become so attached to tradition itself that they begin to see it as an end in and of itself, all their good intentions and crusading only serves to turn off would-be supporters, because they refuse to adapt—sacrificing the ability to insure that the intrinsic ideal will continue beyond their time.
Cherish tradition by sharing it and passing it along, not by keeping others out to preserve your own achievements. As a new climber myself, who really cares A LOT about preserving ethics and standards even though the many others my own age (25) could give a damn about them, it seems counter productive that many of the older “guardians” of the ethical high ground seem to sit atop their ethically correct achievements to the exclusion of many.
GU was put up with a great deal of care and consideration to the end that more people would be able to respect and appreciate the beauty and majesty of this awesome megalith. What do you pass along to coming generations if you give nothing to the future that anyone can actually connect with? I am not suggesting that this climb or any climb should be “brought down” in terms of ease to be more palatable to the average person. I am simply pointing out that safety and skill are not the same, nor should they be treated as such.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
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Slippidy-doo-dah,
There is one absolute. There absolutely are bolts placed in the rock. That is a fact. Questions about right or wrong, good or bad don't have absolutes (in my flea-bitten opinion).
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Eddie
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:19pm PT
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After all this...
Has anyone changed there mind?
Let's hear from those who have slid one way or the other on the spectrum of "chop those evil things" to "that's the coolest route ever"
pete
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:22pm PT
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Spencer wrote
"It is an odd thing, because admitting that you are wrong (and I'm not saying that you are) would require a restructuring of your constructed reality, and possibly create contradictions within yourself and your life experiences."
then slipknot wrote
"Spencer, that would seem to be a two way street, would it not? If you are not insinuating that Coz is the one who's screwed up, why did you direct your thoughts toward him?"
It's worth noting that, in this discussion, there are those who claim their way is the only way, and those who admit that both ways have a place.
There is a difference in anal-reality-retention between these standpoints that's worth noting.
Peace
karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:44pm PT
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"After all of this...
Has anyone changed there mind?"
All this discussion has certainly made me look at my views of FAs.
I've been solidly in the camp that you start at the bottom and climb up. But with this route, I see there can be good reasons to look at other approaches.
Nature, way back up thread, gave a good example of why rap bolting can be a good thing. Slowly, I've seen that there are indeed places where climbing from the ground just doesn't work so well.
Of course, Growing Up is different in that it could have been done without uncoiling the ropes on top. The amount of time it took the FA team to make that decision doesn't escape me. The footsteps of Doug also carry weight for me.
I honestly think that if Sean and team were allowed to power drill, things might have been different. But, given the available tools, they did what they thought was best.
I am still anti-rap bolting. The thought of it makes my skin crawl. Yet I can see this route as being one where a different viewpoint can be valid.
PS. Clint, Thank You! for that topo.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:03pm PT
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KB
I like to hunt bald eagles by helicopter in Alaska. What do you think of that?
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
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Karl,
Awaiting your response. What will it be? Phone a friend, Poll the Taco audience, Switch question, or take your earnings and withdraw from the thread?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:35pm PT
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Good work on the topo.
Why does this route (which has KNOTT had a FA) get a name, number grading, and a star-quality rating?
Curious, but having put up a few FA's of my own, I am not surprised--the 3P's.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:46pm PT
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Slipknot wrote to Karl
"I like to hunt bald eagles by helicopter in Alaska. What do you think of that?"
as a balding guy myself, I think you're satan!
but heh, eagles are predators too, so what goes around comes around.
yet I feel it would be more trad if you climbed, ground up, into their nests and shot them with a bow and arrow....
And one more thing, there is a difference between the taste of reality between false hypothetical examples and real world examples. The world has has many facets and shades of grey, and made up reality fails the sniff test.
But to help you out.
Whether it's moral to live "in sin" without being married is a personal choice, a style issue between you, your partner and God.
If you want to marry an 11 year old, I think society needs to say 'No, that's a collective moral issue because the life of one too young to consent is involved." Yet, I believe someone accused of something like that should get due process of law, even though I don't agree with their alleged action.
There's a difference between those statements and "people who have sex outside marriage are sinners and will burn in hell" and "People who marry 11 year olds are pedophiles and should be shot first and questioned later"
Peace
Karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:47pm PT
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Huh? I always thought the "3 Ps" were Procreation, Passion, or Pleasure.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:51pm PT
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"Good work on the topo.
Why does this route (which has KNOTT had a FA) get a name, number grading, and a star-quality rating?
Curious, but having put up a few FA's of my own, I am not surprised--the 3P's."
Saying it hasn't had an FA is just a "panties in the bunch" way of speaking. You can then say it will "never have an ascent" due to it's tainted character.
If you feel that way, don't consider it a climbing star rating, imagine them as imaginary starry-eyed stars for climbers doing imaginary non-routes.
The climbing rating and star rating come from extremely experienced climbers who have shown us pictures of their route and until their opinion is proven otherwise, it's reasonable to go with it.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:56pm PT
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I'm surprised, looking at the topo that nobody's complaining about the apparantly bolted wide physical 12a crack on pitch 7. '
How wide is that thing? I thought it was only Harding and Bridwell that bolted cracks in Yosemite. Just bringing it up since it was bound to be discussed.
That's another aspect of equiping the climb for future do-the-route-fast-and-light climbers that should be good for a few more dozen (or hundred) posts.
good job on the topo clint
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/growingup.pdf
Peace
Karl
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:57pm PT
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I don't think the question should be asked "did anyone change their mind?" I think a more appropriate question to ask is "does anyone now have a deeper understanding of the feelings and issues on both sides of the discussion?"
While I don't agree with the style of the GU ascent, I now have a deeper understanding of why some people feel that the style is acceptable and also, more importantly, what they want to experience while rock climbing.
Bruce
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jstan
climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 02:00pm PT
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Hey!
Looks like a smiley face.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 30, 2008 - 02:26pm PT
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Karl asks "I'm surprised, looking at the topo that nobody's complaining about the apparantly bolted wide physical 12a crack on pitch 7."
I was getting there, but I can only do so much.
Bruce
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 03:08pm PT
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Karl, Your “help” didn’t help me.
>There's a difference between those statements and "people who have sex outside marriage are sinners and will burn in hell" and "People who marry 11 year olds are pedophiles and should be shot first and questioned later"
Maybe I’m a little slow here, but what is that “difference” you allude to? The only clear difference that comes from your post is that one act is currently legal and the other act is currently illegal and therefore “should get due process of law”.
PS Ground up into the eerie with bow and arrow . . . nice. Maybe limiting myself to just a crag hammer would be even better.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 30, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
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Funny the comment about being married and having children changing ones perspective. I started climbing before being married, don't know if that matters, have three children, and am really enjoying getting them into climbing.
This thread has for me more entrenched that ideal that ground up is where it's at, and what it's about. I have rap bolted routes in the past.
To me the process and the adventure is important. To an extent ou could say it's like a product, let's say a guitar. One can get a guitar put together on an assebly line, or one that is built by hand, with blood sweat and tears. To me the blood sweat and tears put life, character, a uniqueness into the end product.
Rap bolting is like the factory assembly line. No blood sweat and fear on the part of the bolter. Ok, hand drilling adds the sweat for sure, but it is a totally different experience than on lead, groaning on a stance, or freaking that your hooks will fail and you'll take the whipper.
Climbing is about overcoming your fears, not removing all trace of them. Well, at least that's what climbing means to me.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 30, 2008 - 03:55pm PT
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> I'm surprised, looking at the topo that nobody's complaining about the apparantly bolted wide physical 12a crack on pitch 7. '
> How wide is that thing? I thought it was only Harding and Bridwell that bolted cracks in Yosemite. Just bringing it up since it was bound to be discussed.
Steppin' Out (5.10d ow near Reed's) has 2 protection bolts.
JayBro's "JCA's Wide World of Sports" route on Balch Camp Flake has pro bolts.
http://www.widefetish.com/features/jays_wws/jays_wws.html
There's also Perry's Lieback on the Grand Wall at Squamish - bolted lieback/undercling. Could be protected with several huge cams, but it's many pitches up and few people want to carry those up there....
Of course, there are also many ows without bolts, including hard ones like those on Excalibur. So it's one of those judgement calls, up to the people doing the FA. (For the Excalibur ows, it was an FFA, so adding bolts was probably not an acceptable option).
As usual, people could probably bring big cams and ignore the bolts on any of these climbs.
[Edit: my assumption in the above was that the "wide" was an ow or something similar. But I was wrong. In Sean's post below, he explains that p7 is a 10" wide, sloping lieback. So I have added this text to the topo to make this clear.]
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:08pm PT
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Slipknot wrote
"Maybe I’m a little slow here, but what is that “difference” you allude to"
I'm not up to explaining it. Supertopo addiction is killing me!
If you reread my post and still don't get it, we can agree to disagree
Which is of course, another alternative to absolutist thinking
Peace
Karl
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:15pm PT
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aka punt
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:15pm PT
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"The other essential idea of Buddhism (more accurately called a science of mind than a religion) is that we can change our world by changing how we choose to look at the world. 'There is nothing either good or bad," as Hamlet said, "but thinking makes it so.'"
From an article on the Dali Lama
I don't know, I just thought it relevant.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:17pm PT
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SlipKnot, if you see that marrying an 11-year old is only wrong because it's illegal, then of course you will not understand what Karl is saying.
BTW Karl, I've really enjoyed many of your posts in this thread. Very thoughtful.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:23pm PT
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My concern, based solely on KB's recent posts is that HE sees marrying an 11-year old is only wrong because it's illegal. I doubt, however, that such is his view, which begins to expose contradtion in his statments.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:43pm PT
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KB wrote: If you want to marry an 11 year old, I think society needs to say 'No, that's a collective moral issue because the life of one too young to consent is involved."
SlipKnot, I think you're reading with blinders on.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:56pm PT
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I guess that's mutual. If KB wants to engage with my last question, fine. If he wants to ignore potential problems that might be probed and continue on in his effort to push this thread to 3000, that's fine too.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 05:05pm PT
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Dood, I don't want to get in the middle of you and Karl. But, is this your question: "I like to hunt bald eagles by helicopter in Alaska. What do you think of that?"
For one, I don't see any connection with this to the SFoHD.
Second, can you really hunt Bald Eagles by helicopter?
Last, I think Karl did address your question, try rereading his posts (without the blinders).
Cheers...
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 30, 2008 - 05:16pm PT
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It is illegal to use helicopters to transport hunters in Alaska. It is illegal to hunt from a vehicle in motion, except for some limited preditor control programs. It is illegal to kill bald eagles anywhere in the US, it's even illegal to have a feather from a bald eagle, unless you are a native american with special paperwork for ceremonial purposes.
It is the attempt of a dumbazz trying to be a smartazz to suggest hunting bald eagles in Alaska from a helicopter while discussing the issue of placing fixed protection via rappel in a National Park, especially the park that is the premier and historic focus of rock climbing in the US.
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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Apr 30, 2008 - 05:29pm PT
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Looks like Matt lost his 2000th seat and jstan wins the shirt. Somehow I'm just thinking he ain't gonna wear it. He should offer it to Matt for a valiant yet somewhat lame effort :-)
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 06:31pm PT
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That was me...
I had to sacrifice several of my VIPs (Very Important Posts™), but I did it for ya'll...
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 07:04pm PT
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k-man
What spun me off was Karl’s statement:
“It's worth noting that, in this discussion, there are those who claim their way is the only way, and those who admit that both ways have a place. There is a difference in anal-reality-retention between these standpoints that's worth noting.”
That statement attempts to co-opt the high moral ground by stating that he (Karl) and those sharing his view are open, flexible, peace-loving types while I (he named me specifically in his post) and those sharing my view are the intolerant, inflexible, anal-retentive ones. The logical end to his view is that any climb which employs any tactic should be fully accepted (with his later qualification ‘so long as it is legal’, and perhaps we should add ‘so long as it directly hurts no one else’) and that anyone who objects to any such climb is the fool.
My point is that the position “rap bolting SFHD is good” is a position just as narrow, inflexible, and of no higher moral ground than the position “rap bolting on SFHD” is bad. Having the view that “every view is valid” is a view of its own and carries all the baggage that goes with holding a view.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 07:05pm PT
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DR
I just got around to a careful reading of your post from early this morning:
“I contributed to leaving behind a legacy that is less clear cut than my trad roots. This makes me nervous. Because if you want black and white answers about how to climb a rock, they damn sure aren't here in the route we made.”
Your post helps me come closer to accepting GU. While you are proud of the route and would do it again, you are obviously thinking, trying to make good routes, and not frozen into a belief system. While I’m not yet happy with or accepting of GU, you get a lot of credit for openness and reasonableness. Perhaps I have something to learn from you about how I process conflicting ideas.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 07:16pm PT
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Having the view that “every view is valid” is a view of its own and carries all the baggage that goes with holding a view.
In another time's forgotten space
Your eyes looked from your Mother's face
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 07:29pm PT
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Thanks SlipKnot,
It was your dialog with Spencer that got me thinking about your "two way street." I realized that while I've been defending GU, I also admire Coz for his style, so it's really important to stand up and say that I'm still basically a trad climbing and always will be.
Ain't no dark side, but:
Oh well, a touch of grey
Kinda suits you anyway.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
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Slipknot wrote
"My point is that the position “rap bolting SFHD is good” is a position just as narrow, inflexible, and of no higher moral ground than the position “rap bolting on SFHD” is bad. Having the view that “every view is valid” is a view of its own and carries all the baggage that goes with holding a view."
I'm not placing a moral ground on it here. I think putting up X rated routes and rap bolted routes both have their admirable and negative qualities. Seeing all sides and having a tolerance is different that holding a Taliban attitude on one end of the equation.
Peace
karl
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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Apr 30, 2008 - 07:44pm PT
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HK - work well done. I did the same.
PAWNED!
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jstan
climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 08:14pm PT
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I am reminded of a W.C Field's story. A fellow addressed the crowd waiting to see him be hung saying,"I can't tell you how much I enjoy the attention you are giving me, but right now I would rather be in Philly."
I don't know why there would be a connection, but after telling this story I have read Field's never again got an invitation to perform in that city.
I doubt the battle for 2000 is over but, whatever.
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Sanjan
Boulder climber
CA
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Apr 30, 2008 - 08:42pm PT
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to put up a route like that on a wall with so much history of epics and tradition is silly .
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 30, 2008 - 09:03pm PT
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to expound on K-man's point, Everybody on this thread needs to remember;
"if you plant ice,
you're gonna harvest wind,"
Jay-morethanjustatouchofgray-bro
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 30, 2008 - 10:10pm PT
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Midnight, on a carousel ride, reaching for the gold ring
down inside....
Never could reach it, just slipped away,
but I tried.....
Gone are the days, we stopped to decide,
where we should go, we just ride...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 10:50pm PT
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"I am reminded of a W.C Field's story. A fellow addressed the crowd waiting to see him be hung saying,"I can't tell you how much I enjoy the attention you are giving me, but right now I would rather be in Philly." "
Now there an example of the danger of using the rope top down!
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:06pm PT
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Those are not bolted cracks. Those are bolts where the crack pinches down to knife blade size. Except one 50 ft. section on pitch 7. A perfect finger crack ( unbolted ) turns to a 10 in. slopey, way physical lie back. The back of the crack is rotten and wouldn't take gear anyway. And not deep enough to get into and off width. Really bad feet too.
You just have to grab slopey lie backs and go for it. Even with the 5.13 pitch higher, this pitch will shut down many. 5.12 A
wide physical, and way insecure.
I'm trying not to sound threatening here to Zack or anyone else.
But I'm a bit sick of hearing about the whole chopping thing. Be it on GU or anything else.
If you don't like the bolts on this route or any other, either climb something else or skip them. Then you can come back down to the valley and spray about how bad ass you are. Sad to see how much of OUR sport is full of spray. Espessially here in the valley.
Again, don't mean to sound threatening here, but I guess I am.
Before you start hacking away at the next bolt, think hard, and DO NOT let me find out about it. I'm really sick of it and many many many people that I know are too.
PEACE !
Sean.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:17pm PT
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If no one ever chopped a bolt, there would be no reason to think twice before drilling one.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:30pm PT
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I'm kinda sick of the asss kicking spray. You really going to kick some ones ass Sean? Are you issuing a Valley wide (it was world wide last time) Fatwa on chopping? Just saying... it sure is hard to feed your kids when you are in jail and/or paying restitution and legal fees to some toothless sap you lit up because he chopped some bolts. Get real and reel in *your* spray. If people are going to chop your route, or any route, so be it. You own the rock, and bolts, just as much as the guy who takes them out. You've done your part. Think of it as a catch and release project.
Drift: I'm all for the chopping of the Serenity Crack bolt..... as a side note. If it gets chopped, can the chopper count on a can of whoop-ass from you Sean? Not mamby pamby shiit either, but some solid blows to the control tower. Is this what it is coming to? Do you really have the stomach for it?
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:31pm PT
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Clint,
Nice job on the photo of all the routes. Can't speak for the rest of them but as for ours, the lines are drawn very well.
Nice job upgrading the topo. It looks really good. The only thing off on it is the escape hatch on the s.face route. That actually hangs right above the 5.13 pitch on GU.
That was my fault on the original topo though. The s. face pitches need to be stretched out a bit to make the escape hatch end up just over the top of GU pitch 10.
Nice job and thanks !
Sean.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:32pm PT
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Cheese and rice! If you don't recognize that there is beaucoup plenty of thought been given to this route (on both sides of the question)that was not engendered by Royal or Ken Nichols or any other instance of bolt chopping then you are not paying attention.
G'night, johnboy.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:47pm PT
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I'm a homo
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:50pm PT
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Cheese and rice! If you don't recognize that there is beaucoup plenty of thought been given to this route (on both sides of the question)that was not engendered by Royal or Ken Nichols or any other instance of bolt chopping then you are not paying attention.
Sean pointed out that no bolt should be chopped. I was pointing out the idiocy of that statement. Its sooooo one sided, and I believe he's the one crying closed mindedness. Sh#t happens in both directions, get over it.
Your turn to pay attention.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Russ,
I never said a word about punching anyone out. I've never started a fight in my life and don't plan on ever starting one.
Don't really know what to do about all this. Maybe just find the person and give them my oppinoin. Face to face.
If they want to start throwing blows, that's their deal.
Am I going to go around punching people's teeth out and face charges or maybe even get my ass kicked and face charges.
The answer is no. I'm not stupid and not an as#@&%e either.
Am I ready to go face to face with anyone about anything and deal with the consequenses.
The answer is yes. Many people right here in town and even talked heavily about today are also sick of bolt chopping. These are very adament climbers and long time Yosemite locals
Do they have the balls to tell some f%ucker to his face that they're sick of this sh#it ? I don't know. But I do. Do I think I'm some big ass kicking bad ass ? No.
I do understand about things like Serenity and other routes where the original route was disrespected. If someone wanted to change my route, I would much rather they talked to me and explained why first.
So I do understand. But The whole bolt chopping thing needs to be done in super clean style or the end result is even worse.
And I've seen plenty of that around here in 20 years. A bunch of dudes running around policing the rocks, making an even bigger mess, yet were in diapers when the route went in in the first place.
As for Serenity crack and so many others ( guess you can call them cracks now that the seams have been beaten to submission )
The bolt is the least of my worries. Less damage would have been done there and in soooooo many other situations if bolts were placed to begin with.
I really don't know what to say about it all. What to do ? What not to do. Does anybody really know ? Best we can do is keep communicating and try to get to some place that makes sense to everybody. God help us!
Sorry if my attitude sounded sh#tty upthread. Just annoyed a bit and confused like everyone else.
PEACE !
Sean.
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WBraun
climber
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My opinion, not that anyone even gives a sh#t.
Leave the route, (GU), the fuk alone. It's up, and a done deal.
Go home and piss in your pants if you can't handle that.
I'm so glad I'm not a rock climber ....
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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So, your "threats" are the threat of a chat? Seems a wee bit tamer than the previous texts imply.
Sean, I'm not really trying to bust your balls or anything, but guys getting KO'ed is pretty real stuff. It sounded to me like this was going to be the line in the sand.... chop it (or any bolt) and get knocked out. Threats like that would for sure diminish the chopping pool. Or worse, the real possibility of a picket fence smile would drive the choppers underground and then they would become "chickenshit choppers" which IMO is worse than rap bolting. Not that I'm really against rap bolting... per say..... but I do frown on pussy choppers who do the terrible deed at night and then hide in the cloak of anonymity.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Hey Werner... this is a "climbers" forum. Maybe you should grab some Basmati and STFU.... M'kay?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jody = clueless and at best a T1
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WBraun
climber
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They're out of Basmati, ship me some .....
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Check your mail box next week..... nobody does the Basmati down here... only Captain Crunch.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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With 2,110 posts, that must be more or less one post for every vertical foot the climb ascends.
The SuperTopo department of useless statistics strikes again. :-)
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Hummm....Somethings fishy here.
Are some posters not really reading the posts that they are responding to?
Or are they reading into these posts and.......projecting?
GROW UP!
EDIT: POST 2112 RUSH RULES!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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What do that many quality bolts cost anyway. I'd be pissed too if I invested that much time and energy in something and somebody came and screwed it up.
And so I can imagine how Sean feels, wanting and feeling to kick some ass if somebody chopped but also realizing that it's just not where we want to go.
Peace
karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Karl wrote:And so I can imagine how Sean feels, wanting and feeling to kick some ass if somebody chopped but also realizing that it's just not where we want to go.
Choppers for the most part are sneaking little slimes who have the backbone of a jellyfish.
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Kinda like rap bolters?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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LOL! Way to keep the party going...
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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All bolts will be chopped in the end.
Anyone recall the controversy on the Dru: in 1975 Thomas Gross soloed a new route (with his guitar!) and placed an unprecedented 68 bolts. People were livid. Then in 1997, a massive 300' high chuck of rock fell off above the mid-way point and erased the route.
It make take a few millenia for Half Dome, but give it time, the human monuments will be someday be gone.
In the meantime, you might as well enjoy the climbs.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
all bivied up on the ledge
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I've resisted the urge to post up on this til now.
I read the original write up when out and didn't have a problem with the style even though it was not my style (which is not relevant to this discussion). It wasn't my ascent.
I find all this talk about bolt chopping disturbing. I've done FAs without bolts and had others place bolts on subsequent ascents. I haven't run out to chop the "offending" bolt nor have I advocated someone else doing so. Their actions had no affect on my ascent.
I will never climb Growing Up. I'm too old and have too many other things going in my life to make it a priority. Sean and Doug's actions have no real affect on my life.
If you aren't going to climb the route, the same is likely true. Their actions have had no real affect on your life, either.
If you are going to climb the route, and the number of bolts offends you, don't clip them. Climb it your way and make it your own ascent.
Or climb something else in your own seemingly superior style.
All this talk of bolt chopping is simply ego on overdrive. Get over it. The horse is dead.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Can I just ask one innocent, honest and serious question?
The last time I was in the Valley (last Sept.) my buddy and I were talking about climbing the Prow with a Czech guy we met. The topic of fixed gear (copperheads and such) came up, and it was explained to me that the Prow is rated 5.6 C2 only if the fixed heads are still in place. So if somebody took a fall, and blew-out the fixed heads, the rating goes way up until somebody with heads fixes them again (could be the faller, could be somebody else).
I have been wondering, since I stumbled into this discussion, If this is fixed gear that we are talking about, and it periodically has to be pounded back into functionality, isn't that more damaging in the long run than placing a bolt right next to where the fixed gear was, and making it (mostly) permanent?
I honestly don't get why we keep dicking around with this type of thing. The Prow is just one example, but the concept I am talking about is fixed gear that periodically blows and gets replaced. How many times do you think that can happen? Which is less intrusive, fixed gear mank, or camoflauged long-life bolts? I'm just wondering when we shift tactics to address the reality of fixed gear longevity?
I'll take my answer off the air, thank you.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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So did your worries of the fixed mank keep you off the Prow? Would you have gone up there if there were "longlife" bolts at the crux, instead of possibly scary placements?
mank = adventure and risk, and some people like the uncertainty of it all.
I suppose at some point, when there is no more placements at all, something will probably be done. Exactly what, is unknown, and in the end may be nothing.... the route may no longer exist. Or you can dumb down and bolt the fuk out of the thing with colored holds and turn the C2 into 5.8. But then, what about the 5.6 guys?
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Hi Russ, good question.
The answer is no. We ran short on time and water bottles, and chose to do the Lost Arrow Spire instead.
I think I catch your drift though. I'm just thinking out-loud. Showing my ignorance; that's what I do.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Spencer: yeah... tough questions on stuff like fixed mank getting replaced with good stuff.
Earlier Sean said something about Serenity Crack being better off if it was bolted long ago instead of pinned out to oblivion. (paraphrase) So who with such a vision is ready to bolt up (or down) a crack in the name of preservation so that crack will look just the same in 50 years?
Currently, bolted cracks are generally frowned upon, even in the name of vision. So do we just destroy all the rock until there are no more placements and then turn the crag into an outdoor gym? Hard to say. Somewhere in the middle is what will probably happen, through regulation, be it official or community driven. At some point we will settle on a standard. I think that point is many many years in the future, unless forced onto us by some evil governing body.
On something like the Prow.... if I had to guess, those heads will need to blow and blow and blow until there really is no way to make them stick. Then someone will place a rivet, which will work for a few years and then blow, and then someone will place a bolt, and then when that rusts out, someone will place a giant bolt. And so it goes. The visionary would argue to just place the big asss bolt now, since we can all see what will happen if we don't. But in the end does it really matter? Probably not. But, to some the experience is richer standing on some mank, or perhaps perching on a rivet rather than on a bolt. The blood pumps a little faster, fear has a chance at getting to the small hairs on the back of your neck, and the feeling of accomplishment is a bit more intoxicating than if you were standing on a bolt that could not fail. Getting by with some uncertainty is what makes the game fun. You never hear anyone say with any enthusiasm, "man... you should have seen how cool it was standing on that big new bolt!". But, you will hear time and again guys talking with wild eyes about how, "it was so Jingus!!!....I'm like 20ft out and have to clip this shoelace dangling from a rusted RURP.... FUK MAN!!! It was HAIRY!" I know which story I'd rather be telling.....
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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I hear you, me too! I'm just looking down the road and wondering. Plus, I'm pretty much all trad all the time, so I'm pretty ignorant in the ways of the big wall mank-mongers, and why continue to do the mank dance. Thanks for explaining it to me without belittling. I really do appreciate it.~~~~~SA
Edit: Klaus, that looks an awful lot like a "Him Hang" but I guess you already knew that. Doesn't look very "hard". Someone should do a traverse variation and call it "Sack-Up". Did you hear the one about the two kiwis?...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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One place we might agree regarding the sort-of mank on trade routes is...Don't clean the heads. Banging more heads in on each trade route ascent just beats the rock to death and pretty soon you have to trench em.
Don't place heads where clean gear can go either (like lost arrow placements that could take bomber cam hooks)
There have been discussions in the context of Middle Cathedral regarding whether routes that relied on fixed pins for free-climbing should have those pins replaced by more pins, or bolts, or just let the climbs get scarier, or use Steve Grossman's pin-bolt idea. I don't have a link cause i'm crashin
Peace
Karl
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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> And so I can imagine how Sean feels, wanting and feeling to kick some ass if somebody chopped but also realizing that it's just not where we want to go.
But that is not how Sean feels. I think he explained it pretty clearly; certainly Russ understands it.
What he feels is that he is tired of hearing the spray (aka B.S.) about chopping. And he expects if it was actually chopped that he would feel upset/angry. Well, I think that is how most of us would feel if somebody felt so negatively about one of our FAs. This does not translate to a desire to hurt somebody. It might translate to some angry words with that person. And Sean said he would not be afraid of confronting someone who did something that bothered him. Not for the purpose of picking a fight, but to show that people who take actions should be accountable, and be ready to explain what they did.
I find the preemptory statements by Jody rather premature; I don't think that is the right approach, because some people will be tempted to do it, partly just to see if you follow up. This is not about testing Jody's integrity (I'm sure he has it). It is about tolerance, as Kelly explained many posts ago. Some people don't like the fact that the upper part was rap bolted, but can tolerate it. Some will spray about chopping, which is ignorable to some and disturbing to others. *If* a route is junk and not worth the bolts or methods used to do the FA, often it is best to just leave as an example and let people see it for themselves. It seems clear that the climbing on Growing Up is not junk. Maybe it looks like a "lot" of bolts, but there are a lot on other routes in the vicinity (except Southern Belle) - as with Wings of Steel, when there are few cracks, it is going to take bolts if you want pro.
The ground up alternative on the upper slab is there waiting (go left at the top of the 60' bolt ladder), if somebody wants to go up there and take on that challenge.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hi Clint
I thought I was saying pretty much that same thing in different words ( you're interpretation of Sean's anger)
Both Sean and Coz have gone through a few cycles of posting upset and posting cool. It's like the cycle of emotions between two guys who were dating the same gal. Sometimes it's helpful to look at the time of night posted for insight about states of mind.
Coz, if you read back to Sean's angry post (which wasn't directed at you) and his follow-up posts, it'll give you a better perspective. It wasn't about you. Kudos to you for suggesting that they remove their own bolts rather than call for chopping despite being upset.
Since the guys said they hand drilled the route, you've come out and stated it was power-drilled. Are you claiming to know something we don't, or do you just figure that would have been too much work to do by hand, or just mad last night?
I have faith that you guys will work out this latest twist in the road.
peace
Karl
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Russ Walling: ...But then, what about the 5.6 guys?
Now, there's no need to drag us "5.6 guys" into this muck, but since you asked...
For the most part (can't speak for everybody), we'll look up at stuff like that and mutter under our breaths, "Holy Mackerel, Andy." And then move on.
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jstan
climber
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Sounds to me like the "5.6 guys" have really got it together.
Good people with whom to travel!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Maybe the "5.6 guys" could organize a Canned Sardines Fest.
Or Pb&J.
As a guide, however, I happen to know that 5.6 guys drink some of the tastiest Scotch...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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White pants are hard to keep white. Even if you like the pureness of
white, it's really hard to keep 'em that way. But white pants are cool,
especially so because everybody knows what it takes to keep 'em white.
But once they get stained, you gotta get a new pair of pants if you really
want white. Some pants, though, well there ain't no replacing them.
You can carry on the analogy by adding color. Some colors pollute the
absolute white, while others can actually add a bit of funk to the suit.
The fact is, there's really no replacing anything that you hold near and
dear. You can look for a substitute, but it's never the same. This can
be good, or bad. As stated above, it's your frame of mind that makes it so.
If you think GU soils Half Dome, then it's done. Chop the route, it
doesn't matter, the route is still there but with trash instead of
useable bolts. The fact is, chopping just soils the face that much more.
This debate is about keeping the SFoHD white. Some think it's our
last/best pair of white pants. "We need a place where only the boldest
can go. A place where we know you are God if you go there." A place
where us dirty climbers kept a drawer sanitized to hold those white
pants, for the future climber who's gonna step up and make us all proud.
Little piles of rock in JTree don't matter. Little rocks lower in the
Valley don't matter. We're talking about the pinnacle of pureness getting
stained. Somebody poured black paint down the face of the ivroy tower.
Go climbing for crying out loud. And if you want some white pants, you
might have to look farther than Half Dome, the rock with cables going up
the back side.
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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hey coz and sean, you guys are very passionate about your climbs, and it shows. i just want to let both you guys know that i think physical fighting never solves anything, and it would be really sad to me if GU cause any fisticuffs. this, after getting thrown to the ground last year in patagonia over...bolts getting chopped!...but that's another thread.
everybody should try to just settle down a little bit, and breathe. coz, i've known you a long,long time, and i really feel for you bro. i had to accept rap bolting on my beloved medlicott 15 years ago, and it was tough, but i could see i didn't have a choice, the sport wave was coming, and i had to much respect for the rock to encourage a bolting war...besides the fact that i'm a lover, not a fighter.
i guess what i'm trying to say to people is
DON'T CHOP GROWING UP, PLEASE.
shipoopoi
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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K-Man wrote
"Little piles of rock in JTree don't matter. Little rocks lower in the
Valley don't matter. We're talking about the pinnacle of pureness getting
stained. Somebody poured black paint down the face of the ivroy tower. "
Pinnacle of pureness? I thought we covered the history of Half Dome already. This is far from the first bolt controversy there, not to mention a lot of other stuff.
Heros are like tele-evangelists, the more you know, the more the human side is revealed.
Peace
karl
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jstan
climber
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Quality is our global added value!
I must be getting old.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Egos have been really flaring up the past few days, egads.
Chill out, no one is fighting anyone, or even threatened to for that matter. This isn't recess, the big bad bully coz isn't going to make fun of you and throw dirt in your eyes, and meanie sean isn't punching anyone (although I would love to see a good fight, just saying :D)
On a seperate note... no one is going to chop the route... its a long ass hike and a pain in the a$$. Its one thing on serenity or the cookie, but add a 3 hour approach, the chopping ego-heads are only bleeding hearts so long as its convenient.
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laazrockit1
Social climber
mariposa, ca
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hey humans,
i've climbed with sean for years. we put up "sky people 11c" in the ribbon falls amphitheater. just wanted to say, the next time you find yourself vexing out over style, and all that other shi#, get up off your ass in front of your computer, and GO CLIMB A ROCK!!!
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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even though i am with you Coz, fighting is not the answer....
But we all need to consider the facts, and the question now stands, does this act open the last bastion of tradition and adventure to the gym climber mentality?
why can't we keep a few of our most respected and awed places more adventurous?
I would rather see a few more small holes in the rock ground up, than to take the rap bolt approach to half dome. holes can be filled and any ground up route can be done in good clean style and be safe or not. that is the choice before us..
ks
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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a paraphrased distillation of some of Coz's remarks
"when you come to town......dinner and beers are on me and we can agree to disagree"
and then presumably after dinner
"let's beat the crap out of each other"
now that's chivalry.... and I like it
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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has this pile seen a second ascent yet?
:)
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Sean Jones
climber
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Hey All,
Looks like we were getting somewhere awhile ago, then all went to hell again. Sorry for that. My attitude didn't help any.
Coz,
I never said my way is the only way. Ever. I also never addressed you personally about the chopping thing, and never mentioned anything about fist fighting.
Just stated my opinion to everyone and now we're heading for a fist fight again.
Steve,
Thanks for the words of wisdom above. Much needed.
If I dropped down SB and added a bunch of bolts because I thought that was the right thing to do. I would very much understand people's frustration and even bolts being removed.
That's not the case nor will it ever be. Just as I don't appriciate a bunch of people screaming about thrashing my work
and ripping it apart.
There's some pretty down right rude things on this thread and directed at me. I think I've kept my spirits up for the most part about it all. Some of it hasn't been easy though.
Now I have Cos spraying about power drilling. I can hand drill at least 20 bolts a day and I wasn't alone up there. It took 4 1/2 months to complete this project. You do the math. Not to mention, they're not that big. The 10 mm are 2 1/4 in. long and the 3/8 are 1 3/4 in. long.
You know, for many years now, I've put so much of my time into climbing in so many ways. And more importantly, I ve had to fight and fight and fight some more to make a living at it. That's a very hard thing to do as many of you may know. Scott should really know.
The more you push and push to bring me down. Espessially spaying all over the net about power drilling. Who was that guy that got busted on EC ? The more I realize how this could effect my entire family. The loss of everything I've fought to build for them. Food being taken from the mouths of my children.
I'm not trying to sound threatening. But I urge you to lay the f$ck off of me. Far beyond wars over ethics and bolts. I'm really starting to boil when it comes to peolpe destroying my life and f$cking with my family. At this point, that really is where this is now.
I would NEVER do to ANYONE for any reason some of the things that have been done to me on this thread. We don't have to agree, but we should try hard to get along and process this thing like Steve said. My vote is for PEACE because that's who I really am. My guns are down. Please don't push me into the corner because I will fight my way out of it.
Again, sorry for any sh#t attitude I've thrown out there. Even to the ones hammering me. I know me getting pissed doesn't help anything. Much thanks to all that have had a possitive attitude. Not for being on my side, but just for staying possitive. The world NEEDS that energy bad. Sorry for slipping on my part.
Sean.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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In the spirit of ST social gatherings such as Sushifest, Shootfest, and Crimpie's Welcome to Boulderfest, I propose a Slugfest. Just put on some big marshmellow gloves and have at it.
Of course the main event would be coz vs. Sean, but other possible match-ups could be:
Matt vs. whoever tries to make the 3,000th post
Russ vs. anyone who thinks they're funny (would go 1 round)
Jstan vs. anyone who thinks they're smart (no contest)
Fatty vs. any democrat
Lois vs. Happie
Any others?
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
|
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Klaus vs. 12 miniature Mike Ditkas
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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FIGHT ??
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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divad, you forgot ron vs. oli
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Back to the route--is it a FREE climbable route, or is that A0 section un-freeable?
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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A BOLT WAR STORY
As Steve said "It's so nineteen-eighties!".
The following is a true story, altough the names have been changed to protect the perpetrators. On my first FA ever, we were scared, and my partner Dan rap bolted in one of the bolts on a route at Jtree (circa 1980). We were proud of our route, which had all 3/8 inch bolts to ensure years of safe climbing on our little classic.
The rock police summarily chopped the route, and Dan called up the guys (Matt and Sam), who fessed up to the fact that they indeed did the chopping.
Dan told me,"If you see Matt or Sam, tell them I'm gonna kick their ass!"
I ran into Sam, in the Mountain Room bar, and I told him "Dan told me to tell you he's gonna beat you up the next time he sees you." My partner Dan was a formidable fellow, and Sam pleaded with me: "Tell Dan we'll put the bolts back in, with Leeper Hangers!" (which were the bomb at the time, but now are all time-bombs, having all been recalled). "I don't know if that's gonna change his mind," is what I told him.
A month later, at Stoney Point, Dan in fact did run in to Sam, and witnesses told me that Dan had Sam down on the ground, flat on his back, Dan's hand on his throat, punching his face for about 5 minutes.
The bolt police never chopped any more of Dan's routes.
A talented local climber replaced all the chopped bolts on the lead, with 1/4 inchers.
Ten years later, the same guy returned, rapped down and replaced all his 1/4 inch bolts with 3/8 inchers.
Go figure.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Sean- I know it must be hard not to respond to the Lowest Common Denominator around here (the threat of violence) but I would try to just ignore it. There is a lot of power in being passive, and letting someone's unanswered (or even better, unacknowledged) aggression and antagonism fall by the wayside. You are way strong enough not to dignify that sh#t with a response. And when you do (not respond) it shows who the adult in the room is.
You and I know the truth about how the bolts went in. I hammered so goddamned much that my forearm and hand would "go to sleep" for almost half the day. Pins and needles. At some points, I could barely hold the hammer, and I only drilled anchors and some of the bolts on the first half of the route, and anchors on "Laid To Rest"...(if you get some time, could you do a topo for THAT route and post it up?)
Before that last bit of caveman BS, I was really back to respecting the hell out of Scott again for being a grown up- Oh well.
Ben
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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BG,
I know bolts are a controversial issue, but beating the sh#t out of people over it is absolutely f*#king ridiculous. People like your partner Dan should not be allowed to show their faces at climbing areas. Any issue that one climber has with another can and should be settled over a beer and a blunt.
I f#king hate violence.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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settle down "Francis"
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dirtbag
climber
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"There are other, longer lasting ways to make your point without resorting to violence. I'll leave it up to your imagination. :)"
Like this...?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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FAists and Rock Police rumble at Stoney Point:
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nevenneve
Trad climber
St. Paul, MN
|
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About damn time this thread took a turn toward death. It's own, not loss of life.
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Sanjan
Boulder climber
CA
|
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this is the digital age .. you can test flight a whole route on google-earth for crying out loud . the magazine even stoops to featuring that former gymnast or whatever for more sex appeal . naw .
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Since i got left out of the poetry jam a few hundred posts back
My recap
Doug and Jones rapped down the dome
and drilled a pile of bolts
Coz found out and broke his crown
and posts came tumbling after
Peace
Karl
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scuffy b
climber
watching the flytrap
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Who has the comic strip with Main Dude firing Midnight Lightning
and making Coz blow his top?
(I am not implying any correlation between that "episode" and the
current situation)
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jstan
climber
|
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Karl does this just to get his citation index up.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
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What if a stud glues in a 6-piece?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
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IF I find out who chopped the bolts I had to replace on Double Cross last month I will beat the living sh#t out of them and then toss them in the Barker Dam.
Juan
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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JDF
Keep your focus man, this thread is about SFHD/Growing up.
None other allowed!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
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Actually, a glue-in bolt would be a good bit easier to chop than a stud of the same diameter,
since there is a larger surface area (and hence more leverage becuase of the higher profile).
In cases where a crowbar or similar prying device could fit in the hole of the glue in,
chopping it would be easier (on an order of magnitude) than a stud, especially studs that are 1/2"...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
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Bump to keep this thread on on the front page where it belongs, and most importantly,
to a position above the totally unnecessary, redundant, and distracting "recap" thread...
(and I'll repeat as often as necessary)
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
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Juan, I chopped your freaking bolt and I'm ready to throw down anytime, anyplace. How about the Tam O'Shanter parking lot Thursday as soon as I finish my shift in the kitchen?
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Peter Puget
Trad climber
Washington
|
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Couldn't let this thread die w/o posting!
Tradition is the handing on of fire and not the worship of ashes - Gustav Mahler
Tradition is not wearing your grandfather’s hat; tradition is having a baby - Pablo Picasso
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DixieGal
Trad climber
NC
|
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I think it is fair to say that Growing Up has irrevocably
tarnished the reputations of the principal two people that
performed this construction job.
The construction crew (Sean, Doug et al) will say that they
didn't climb this route to enhance their reputations, but I
have a tough time stomaching such a statement.
Although the route does not affect me directly (I am not good
enough to climb such a gymnastically difficult route), I have
formed some negative impressions about the construction crew.
In my mind, there are basically two types of climbers.
TYPE A, THE GOOD ONES: Many well known climbers are
unquestionably in this category (certainly the Alex Lowe and
John Bachar types). Coz falls
into this category, even though I don't know him.
But there are also a large number of
less well-known climbers, and partners of mine who are not
famous, not pulling big numbers, who simply climb for recreation
and challenge themselves in the process. Paramount to this
category are high ethical, aesthetic and stylistic standards
(based on my own judgement and my own preferences). Some hard
core A**holes also fall in this category, because inspite of
their abrasive demeanors, they consistently stick to the
ethical and stylistic standards that I approve of.
TYPE B: Mark Twight would probably call these "posers". The
Growing Up construction crew falls into TYPE B in my mind.
Clearly, nobody should care what I think. After all, I am a
nobody in the climbing world. But since this is the internet
and everyone is posting their opinion, that is my opinion.
I have heroes, and the Growing Up construction crew are
certainly not my heroes.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
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Dixegal wrote: Clearly, nobody should care what I think. After all, I am a nobody in the climbing world. But since this is the internet
and everyone is posting their opinion, that is my opinion.
Smartest thing you said in your post.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
|
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There are two types of people in this world: those who divide everything into two groups, and those who...
Interesting division Dixiegal.
It's the 21st century, the posers rule, they have for a long time. Just look who we got for prez.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
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dixiegal, before you go off half-cocked and shoot yourself in the foot (or worse), the late Alex Lowe (RIP) committed some acts with a Hilti power drill that were not only unethical (by your standards), but illegal as well (by FSLEO's standards).
Not to flame on Alex, but remind you that climbers are far more complex and unpredictable than you imagine, especially the ones that you READ about.
Carry on, oh SFHD thread.
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Buggs
Trad climber
Eagle River, Alaska
|
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I love this thread...I am addicted to this thread. Keeps drawing me back, day after day, night after night. I've lost my job, my kids are sick and unfed, my dog is...wait, where is my dog?
I know it can reach 3000, I know it can...
The coolest thing is, all of you are addicted too. Even those that keep posting for the rest of us junkies to quit posting...
I'll never stop reading you OH GRACIOUS SFHD THREAD...
And if the rest of you stop posting I will post, post, post, post...
Forever.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
|
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Dixie Gal wrote: "I think it is fair to say that Growing Up has irrevocably tarnished the reputations of the principal two people that performed this construction job."
Dixie-G, I don't think that's a fair statement at all. Noteriety, yes, but irrevocibaly tarnished? Not so much. Perceptions change. Time heals all wounds. Cultural norms change. How you interpret it is up to you, but that still doesn't make it so.
Clearly, you have staked-out a piece of real estate on one side of an ideological line. If it helps for you think of yourself as as a reporter or spokesperson for a benevolent majority, that's your perrogative, but that still doesn't mean that it's the way it really is.
This thread has gone on way too long without a link.
This one goes out to all the playahz, you know who you are!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdGyR9bXsGE
You're welcome Buggs ;-)
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grover
Social climber
Akanada
|
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Type A and Type B ?!?!
Is that what we have become?
Sheeit.
Can we really cut us clamberers into 2 groups?
I don't think there are enough letters in the english alphabet to do such a thing.
mark
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
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Hey suze christo...
I go away for a while and this thread takes a drastic turn towards pansy hell. What started as a civil discussion has now morphed into a chest thumbing, bile spewing rag off. All this talk of chopping and beating makes me sick. Get over yourselves. All of you wanna be ethical purists who extoll the virtues of your heros have no idea how tainted virtually all of them are. GU is a climb that's all. It does nothing to diminish Half Dome or any other route anywhere. You can't see the bolts from the ground so why should you be so insensed that you think threatening each other is worthy? If you don't like it don't climb it. Simple.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
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STFU-SFHD thread!
Just kidding, I'm flaming way worse the the political thread. This has brought my on-topic posting ratio back.
The Chopping and Beating remarks were so dozens of posts ago. Then came the sane explanations and now we're shuffling around waiting for a second ascent (not that there wouldn't be something wrong with that)
Or somebody new logs in that somebody respects and we get a new take, same as the old take, or better.
nothing more to say, really just trying to snag the covert 2182 post, a year in which humanity will be lucky if civilization still exists and even luckier if the old bolts on growing-up and Southern Belle have been removed and climbers just wear anti-gravity decelerometers on their backs.
The debate will be over the old decelerometers, which sometimes failed or gave you a hard landing, versus the new kind, which always set you down soft and fluffy.
Peace
karl
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
|
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Oh come on Karl, everyone already knows the old decelerometers will be better, due to the element of uncertainty and risk.
|
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
|
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Karl, I have seen the future, and the future is "The Doob-a-lopter"!
It is powered by charged electron particles coming from the solar wind. You navigate simply by thinking about climbing, while wiggling your fingers, hips, and toes.
With this necissary rock craft tool, the A0 section just might be freeable.
*copyright 2008 ~SA~designs All rights reserved. Infringment punishable by by hobbling.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
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Looks trad! Bet it gets sketchy when the Doob wears off and the solar particles get obscured by those high country storms
Peace
karl
|
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
|
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Yeah, the real difficulty, and source for Doob-a-lopter raing system is in keeping your concentration.
You gotta be a Jedi!
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
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Spencer, I'm just a doob. . . I'm not sure where my lopter went. . .
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
|
|
Here's a PDF of the last 2187 posts, 346 pages, 8mb file:
http://www.deuce4.net/web/HalfDomeRapBolted.pdf
Note that there are other threads (not in the pdf), which include recaps, such as my distilled version:
"Yosemite, the world's premier big wall climbing area, gets its first "rap-bolted" big wall by a Sean Jones and a team of others, a 2000 foot new route on the back side of the famous Half Dome.
Although the new route is established using extensive "aid", including the installation of safety bolts from ropes anchored to the summit of Half Dome, approximately 95% of the climb is eventually climbed "free" by Sean.
The "top-down" climbing style is defended and promoted by Sean's team member Doug Robinson, a veritable icon of American rock climbing and early advocate of the clean climbing revolution of the 70's.
Led by Scott Cosgrove, a leading climber of the 1980s (the 'Golden Age' of bold climbing), arguments against the "top-down" style of establishing climbs, having all but disappeared from public discourse, are revived in favor of re-establishing "ground-up" rules for climbing in Yosemite.
The Yosemite climbing sage, Werner Braun, reminds us that such quarrel and strife are inevitable in the age of the Kali Yuga, and therefore resistance is futile. "
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
|
|
Deuce,
Can any of this stuff be used against me in a court of law?
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
|
|
Actually John, I'm not so sure Growing Up was the first rap bolted wall in Yosemite. In that same issue of Schlock and Vice, wasn't there an article of two dudes RETRO BOLTING CRACKS on Arcturus, a long-established Royal Robbins big wall....on rap? Correct me if I'm wrong.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
|
|
Arcturus wasn't rap bolted when it was established; thus, it doesn't qualify as Yosemite's first rap-bolted big wall.
Sorry.
|
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
My own version of the Doob a lopter more closely conforms to the classic pregnant guppy, form.
|
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
The top half of the 39 pitch route on Glacier Point, Galactic Hitchhiker (11b) was equiped by rapping in from the top. I don't know if they actually placed bolts on rappel, or led the pitches first.
The crux pitch is tightly bolted and one bolt seems to be in the wrong place (I can't clip it when freeing it) so I'm sure it was either bolted using aid or on rap.
I don't care though. Done the route a bunch of times and enjoy it a lot.
Peace
Karl
|
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Shingle
climber
|
|
Can't let this die.
Anyone seen this? Seems we have spent 2000+ posts to reinvent the wheel.
Does LEB = Sylvia Fuller? I think she's from Jersey, right?
Creating and Contesting Boundaries: Exploring the Dynamics of Conflict and Classification
Sylvia Fuller
Sociological Forum, Vol. 18, No. 1 (Mar., 2003), pp. 3-30
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3648877
Abstract: "While it is clear that cultural boundaries shape the ways we think and act, the processes by which some emerge as dominant while others languish is less well understood. Drawing on a case study of a conflict among climbers, I show how an innovation's evolution from heresy to orthodoxy was shaped by the relationship between borders enacted by players on different sides of the issue. I argue that because boundaries emerge in an interactional nexus, the nature of the boundaries that prevail can only be understood in the context of prior boundaries through and against which they are created."
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
Thanks Shingle now my head hurts.
|
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
|
|
It matters not what we write now.... this thread has a life of its own and must break the 3000 level..... 3000 or bust!!
|
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Shingle
climber
|
|
"boundaries emerge in an interactional nexus"
Got to save that one for later.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
Where did the WOS guy and the lame writer from Rock & Ice go?
|
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Completely lame and useless post inserted here to bust this thread out of its 2100's doldrums.
Not that it should be bumped, but I logged in to read the past few posts and haven't wasted enough precious time yet so I pressed "reply"
and now I'm ashamed.
But I'm wishing you all a great season anyway
PEace
karl
|
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
I might as well snag 2200 while I'm at it.
I'M KING FOR A MOMENT!
Turn the page, nothing more to see here
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LongAgo
Trad climber
|
|
And now for a diversion on bolt placement from far away and long ago, specifically “Dresden” by Steve Roper, in Best of Ascent and originally from Ascent, 1974:
“ Dresden climbing often consists of short but desperate class 4 pitches. Class 4 as in 5.7 through 5.11… the only form of protection (outside of infrequent horns and holes) is the bolt. Each ring (bolts over half inch in diameter and placed about five inches into the rock with huge rings attached) is a belay station, often a hanging station, for the rings are installed not so much near ledges as just before hard moves. Therefore, it can be seen that the hard moves are reasonably well protected. Sometimes the pitches are less than thirty feet in length and rarely are they more than fifty feet.
I recall once approaching a ring, relaxing as it got closer. I became horrified to find that I couldn’t let go to clip in. I really couldn’t let go. Briefly I thought of continuing, but the moves above definitely appeared to justify the ring. Finally I balanced and leaned and cavorted about and lunged for the mother. As I sat in my belay seat it came to me that it would have been impossible for anyone to have placed the thing while leading. Fritz (Wiessner) was watching from a nearby parapet, so I asked him about this seeming paradox. In fact, I opened my mouth too quickly, as usual, and stated in unequivocal terms that it was pretty low-class to place bolts on rappel. ‘No, no, no!’ he shouted instantly, ‘We don’t do that, it was placed on the lead.’ ‘But, Fritz, I couldn’t let go to clip in. No one could let go with both hands, for Christ’s sake, it’s vertical.’
The shouting match didn’t resolve itself at the time, but later in the beer parlor it turned out that these amazing chaps really had put them in on the lead, drilling the holes by hand – no hammers were used. The rock is fairly soft and a strong person can cling onto pinch holds while the drill is turned with the other hand. Upon getting tired, the driller will climb down to a resting stance. Sometimes the work is so strenuous that he must come back day after day to work on the hole. When the drill gets far enough into the rock he will rest in a seat sling from the drill itself. But after such a rest, which one gathers is not terribly long, it’s off the seat, back to pinch holds and more grinding away.”
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Midnite is approaching....
Rosemarys coffee is still kicking hard....
Home safe with kids in bed....
Sean sorry I had to bail....
Climbed some rock yesterday.....
Climbing is fun....
I remember....
F#ck here I am reading and then posting WTF....
Guess this is fun too...
F-ing SuperTopo....
B................................................
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ec
climber
ca
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Thx for posting that Tom. I remember reading the original story as a fledgling climber. Those guys were the epitome of Trad. It was an inspiration for me to not 'puss-out' at a crappy drill stance. Equally amazing was that difficult cracks were virtually done protection-less. Now, that's a desire to climb!
ec
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Fat wrote: Somehow, I think LongAgo has once again supported the no rap bolt position.
By using a country that suppressed any type of human independence...funny!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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In the Elbsandsteingebirge (aka Dresden), they also allowed shoulder stands. So maybe that is how that ringbolt was placed.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Fatty wrote
"Bad form to hog positive round number posting karma. "
Since I have a girlfriend, you can hog the positive round numbers from now on fatty!
Post on...
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jstan
climber
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The climbers of Dresden can indeed be held personally responsible for the actions of their government by those Americans who also hold themselves personally responsible for the actions of our government.
I suspect that is a fairly small group.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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John...you missed my point.
Also a little bio about the man who started the "rules" in Dresden.
Dr. Rudolf Fehrmann was an attorney. Unfortunately, he fell under the spell of the National Socialist Party and became an early member of that organization. He did manage, in the 1930s, to use his Party influence to remove unnecessary restrictions to climbing in the Elbsandstein area. He served as a military judge during World War II, and was captured and sent to an internment camp in East Germany (Camp Five-Oaks near Brandenburg), where he died of "natural causes" - awaiting trial as a suspected war criminal - in March of 1948, at the age of 63.
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Kimmage
Boulder climber
Mammoth Lakes
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To anyone who has been ok with Sean and Doug putting up this route, i commend you because you obviously have not forgotten what climbing was all about.
However, to those who are so furious with him rap bolting a big wall...what the hell is the matter with you? Are you going to be against Ron Kauk as well?! for those who know Sean, they know that he loves to climb and thats all. why the hell does it even matter which bolts go into which rocks? Back in the day, no one would have really given a sh#t because everyone was a care free hippie. I've noticed the people who are knocking him are all from areas like San Fran and So Cal. My advise to you is to stay where you are. In the city. You are all Yuppies who only care about legal crap. If you;re climbing, you're climbing and that's that. Sean has done more in his life than half of you in here so if yu want something done your way, go do it yourself and stop doggin on people who bust their asses to make a great route. And by the way, Sean is a very respected climber around Yosemite and El Portal and has always out up glorious routes that no one ever thought could be done. Maybe you should accomplish something great before you talk sh#t on the internet about MY UNCLE!
Peace and Love,
Kimmage
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Kimmage
Boulder climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Hey BLD!!!! Hi uncle Blair! Can you believe what some of these people are saying?
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Kimmage,
There are some heavy hittin dudes who fall on the other side of the argument. Just an observation to be aware of. Instead of personal insults maybe you should try to figure out where they are coming from in their opinion.
Peace
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Broken
climber
Texas
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Kimmage wrote: "To anyone who has been ok with Sean and Doug putting up this route, i commend you because you obviously have not forgotten what climbing was all about."
So Kimmage...what is climbing "all about"?
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ec
climber
ca
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Kimmage,
Careful, 'cause you have no idea 'where we all come from' so, stay in whatever place your at!
ec
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Bob D writes:
"Dr. Rudolf Fehrmann was an attorney. Unfortunately, he fell under the spell of the National Socialist Party and became an early member of that organization. He did manage, in the 1930s, to use his Party influence to remove unnecessary restrictions to climbing in the Elbsandstein area. He served as a military judge during World War II, and was captured and sent to an internment camp in East Germany (Camp Five-Oaks near Brandenburg), where he died of "natural causes" - awaiting trial as a suspected war criminal - in March of 1948, at the age of 63."
Fehrmann was a Nazi, and indeed, the German-Austrian Alpine Club became semi-officially anti-Semitic in the early 1920s and many of its members were Nazi sympathizers, Nazis, or worse. But you can't map politics quite that easily onto attitudes toward technology and rock climbing.
The Mauerhakenstreit of 1911 was the first round of the bolt wars. It featured vicious battles in the mags and crags between purists who denounced the use of "artificial aids" (i.e., pitons and bolts) and those who favored them. Virtually all of the arguments and attitudes we've seen in this thread reprise stuff said in the debate back then. And Nazis and Fascists showed up on both sides of the debate.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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The biography of Oliver Perry-Smith in the 1964 AAJ has a short explanation of Fehrmann's thoughts about rules and avoiding the use of aid, plus a cool list of routes Fehrmann did with Perry-Smith in 1905-09:
"As technique advanced, Rudolf Fehrmann advocated undertaking
climbs by “Great Lines” (routes laid out in the most direct way, tackling
great difficulties; hence, the ideal, most beautiful line), which present
the uppermost total performance in route finding, agility, technique,
strength, endurance and, particularly, daring. He defined the ultimate
objective of friction climbing as the art of overcoming steeply inclined
steps and holds which are not sharply edged (i.e. rounded downwards)
and this also at great height, with poor or limited possibility of belaying.
Fehrmann was a wonderful climber and much of Perry-Smith’s success
was due to his inspiration and guidance, Fehrmann realized early that, in
order to preserve climbing in Saxon Switzerland unspoiled, the use of
artificial aid had to be prevented. He was the brain and leader of the
early climbers and was able to convince them by lectures and writing that
once strict rules were broken there would be no end to it, and the beautiful
towers and pinnacles would lose much of their natural charm and
challenge, Many young experts have come out of the area and, with little
other training, tackled important problems of the Dolomites and northern
Kalkalpen in the most astonishing way. After a season or two of Alpine
rock climbing they have done well in the snow and ice of the Western
Alps and Himalayas (Nanga Parbat, 1961). One can say that much of
what they accomplished was based on the tradition of Fehrmann and
Perry-Smith."
http://www.americanalpineclub.org/AAJO/pdfs/1964/99_Thorington_PerrySmith_aaj1964.pdf
(be sure to check out the photos on p.24-29 of climbing radical runout towers and cracks, back as early as 1906)
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Yeah, Fehrmann and the school who opposed pitons dominated the scene in Elbsandstein and did important climbs in the Dolomites and elsewhere. But those climbs grew dramatically fewer after the War.
Most of the most important climbs in the western and central Alps in the '20s and '30s occurred specifically because of technical advances in pitoncraft. The Bavarian and Tirolians were the most active: The tension traverse, aid climbing with stirrups, the Tirolian traverse, and pitons for protection all took off in those years despite the opposition of folks like Fehrmann. Emilio Comici's ascent on Cima Grande, most of Pierre Allain's great triumphs in the French Alps, and notoriously the 1938 ascent of the Eigerwand, all were seen as evidence that the "moderns" had won the debate.
Places like Elbsandstein and Great Britain, that refused to adopt pitons and/or bolts for protection as well as aid, languished in the interwar years. And many of the best climbers to come out of the Dresden area, like Wiessner, did eventually adopt the use of pitons if sparingly.
That doesn't meant that the "moderns" were right, and "purists" like Paul Preuss (who opposed even rappelling as artificial aid)were wrong, but if we are going to measure success by most difficult climbs, then Elbsandstein lost out to the Munich School.
I don't think we can draw an easy moral from this for the SFHD. Except that we are repeating many of the original arguments in a new context.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Hi Kim!
Great to see you here on SuperTopo. There definitely has been some s#it talking here and some posters have drifted off topic into the personal crap. A number of times I have wished I could reach through my computer and just punch some a$$hole in the throat. I'm glad it doesnt work that way. Just remember a good argument can be healthy and productive. I have read every single word on this thread and thrown in my 2 cents here and there. There has been a wide range of people that have posted here. From the non-climber to the 5.easy weekender and all the way to the worlds greatest climbers. Hopefully some good will come from all this. Its been great to sit back and watch or read as this roller-coaster goes through the motions. Sean is a great climber and a great person; nobody can change that with written words.
Miss you Kim!
Uncle Blair.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Klk wrote: I don't think we can draw an easy moral from this for the SFHD. Except that we are repeating many of the original arguments in a new context.
I agree.
Another weird take on this. Fehrmann had a strong personal climbing style and is admired for it..even through he was a terrible human being...Sean and Doug are kind human beings, have contributed greatly to climbing, their friends and families and are being judge by a supposed taint of a climbing style...WTF!
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Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?
climber
Calyfucinphornya
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I just posted the latest message on the longest thread in the history of Supertopo, maybe the world!
Is this my 15 minutes of fame? Bitchin!
A
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Hey,
If Kimmage is for real, and Sean is his uncle, go easy on the kid for Crying Out Loud !! Can we put aside our petty little ethics ramblings for an opporutnity to mentor a young adult ???
Have we lost our perspective here ????
Cracko
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Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?
climber
Calyfucinphornya
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This is the latest post on the longest thread in the history of Supertaco, perhaps the world?
I think this must be my 15 minutes of fame?
A
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Tradcragrat- there's been some heavy hittin dudes on the other side too. Who is in support of a particular side of the argument, as a criterion on which side to put in with, belongs in high school. Focus on the logic and the argument, forget who says what. That's what I think, anyway.
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WBraun
climber
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That's it heavy hitting dudes.
When's the baseball game start?
Trad vs. rap
And you're batting average is?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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great moments in (rap/trad) baseball! Who's making the T-shirts.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I climbed the Fehrmann/Perry-Smith route on Torre Stabler in the Vajolet Towers in the Dolomites put up by the pair in 1908. Pretty cool climb with a great dihedral pitch that went at about 5.6/5.7
done ground up.
Bruce
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Shingle
climber
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Excerpt from Fuller 2003:
"In what follows I use the case of climbing to illustrate the importance of contextualizing cognitive and social borders not only materially or culturally, but also relationally. The analysis tracks changes in boundaries and boundary work through a number of stages, showing how climbers selectively engaged the boundaries created against them along with the boundary properties they preferred. In the first stage, differentiation, climbers opposed to the innovations created boundaries that marked the practices as different from standard ascents. They did so in two separate ways. by using a hierarchical spectrum of "ethics" to downgrade ascents, and by segregating them as a different kind of climbing. Those using the new practices initially accepted the hierarchical logic of these distinctions but attempted to downplay their relevance. Rejecting segregation, they blurred the boundaries differentiating the new practices from the old. This was met in turn with attempts to make the boundary more rigid, and differentiation was replaced by exclusion and polarization, a stage I compare to the division between heresy and orthodoxy. While climbers on the other side did try to challenge this border as well by denying the logic of distinctions, ultimately they opted for a reciprocal segregation, agreeing with the bases of distinction enacted by their opponents, but reversing the boundary's hierarchical structure. Although this stage represents the height of the conflict, it also set the stage for the final period of normalization, in which the boundary between the two entities remained cognitively, but not politically, salient, its rigid hierarchical axis of differentiation transformed into a permeable horizontal divide. In no stage were the boundaries independent-they were always constructed against and through less successful alternatives."
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Shingle
climber
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"People tend to oppose innovation when it is perceived as a threat not simply to the cognitive order, but also to the political order more broadly (Bourdieu, 1984; Kurtz, 1983; Lessel 1988). Although the climbing world offers little in the way of material resources or political power, it can provide status and honor (at least among climbers) by the accomplishment of difficult, dangerous and/or first ascents. Accumulating such climbing capital depends, in turn, upon the acquisition of embodied dispositions, both physical (the ability to perform strenuous athletic moves) and mental (the ability to read a route and choose the right moves and to perform under the threat of injury and death).
On the surface, the innovations that created such conflict seem both attractive and relatively innocuous. "Hangdogging" and "rap-bolting" made the pursuit of difficult routes and first ascents easier and safer. Instead of lowering to the ground immediately after a fall, the hangdogger hung from the rope, finding and practicing the best movement sequences so as to be better prepared for subsequent attempts. Rather than place all protective gear during the climb, the rap-bolter preplaced gear on rappel. Sections of rock that had previously been too overhanging andlor blank of features to allow safe gear placements could now be easily protected, minimizing the
risk of a long and dangerous fall.
By making climbs easier and safer, hangdogging and rap-bolting conferred a definite advantage in the race for first ascents, and it was this competitive threat that initially caused concern. So long as the practices were confined to a maverick few they attracted little sustained attention. It was only when Climbing began publishing articles that tied them with whole
climbing areas in the late 1970s and early 1980s that rapbolting and hangdogging became true public issues. Elite climbers in particular protested that those using the practices were "stealing" first ascents, and they worried that past accomplishments would be devalued as the meanings of the standardized grades by which climbing difficulty was judged were undermined.
Issues of competition and comparison would be moot if all climbers adopted the new practices, but because hangdogging and rap-bolting made climbs safer they altered the mix of dispositions necessary for the acquisition of climbing capital. Experience and bravery became relatively less important, pure physical talent more so. Not surprisingly, well-known climbers
who had made their reputations on the basis of boldness as well as physical skill were among the most vociferous opponents of the practices. "
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"That's it heavy hitting dudes.
When's the baseball game start?
Trad vs. rap
And you're batting average is?"
before or after steroids? Only the rap brothers get to dose....
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Shingle
climber
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"The boundaries first constructed around the new practices reflected elite climbers' concerns and were designed in large part to negate the threat they posed to the competitive status quo. Two different: kinds of boundaries were created: the first downgraded ascents using the new practices by ranking
them along a hierarchical continuum of style, and the second disqualified them by segregating them as a different "kind" of climb. Climbers had long used the term "ethics" more or less interchangeably with "style," ranking the value of an ascent partly in terms of how it was accomplished. While some techniques were beyond the pale, most existed along a spectrum of better and worse? not good or bad per se, and a number of different factors could be used to evaluate an ascent's purity. In labeling climbs in which these practices were used as "unethical," those disturbed by such ascents drew upon this tradition. While this downgraded the ascents, the fact that ethics was generally viewed in terms of a spectrum meant that it did not necessarily disqualify them altogether. Indeed, the diversity of stylistic flaws recognized by climbers helped preclude the construction of a clear and rigid divide between the acceptable and unacceptable. Climbers agreed that the more flaws, the worse the ascent, but they bickered about the relative seriousness of different violations; thus, any line between "bad style" and "cheating" was necessarily fuzzy and somewhat idiosyncratic. Those who discussed the new practices in the context of a purity scale disapproved of the apparent sacrifice of style for glory. They did not, however, generally call for a total eradication of the practices.
The second boundary strategy, calling the practices "aid," was more overtly exclusive. Conventionally, the distinction between aid and free climbing is important... Those calling the new practices "aid" argued that because hangdogging and rap-bolting involved hanging on the rope, the free-climbing maxim that gear be used only for protection was violated. In other ways, the techniques were closer to free climbing. Despite prior practice, climbers did not credit the ascent until it was accomplished without falls and without using the gear for anything but protection. But the division between aid and free operated according to a kind of "one-drop rule." Just as Americans have traditionally considered any African ancestry to be sufficient cause to classify a person as black (Davis, 1991), so too does any use of aid render the climb aid. Nonetheless, because aid climbing remained a legitimate specialty, calling the practices "aid" did not mark them as heretical per se. They remained within the fold of climbing proper, albeit relegated to a less prestigious stratum.
Both classifying the practices as "aid" and ranking them lower on a hierarchical scale removed the competitive advantage they conferred. A necessary corollary was that one know which ascents involved hangdogging and/or rap-bolting, and which did not. Accordingly, calls for greater openness and detail about the style of an ascent were common. Such openness was asymmetrical: more detail about climbs accomplished in "acceptable" style was unnecessary. These were the generic norm against which the deviations were "marked" (see Brekhus, 1996, for a sociological discussion of marking). This mark was clearly negative: it was assumed that few would respect ascents accomplished in "bad" style. This was not an unreasonable assumption."
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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When I played centerfield for the Yosemite Lions, the spray from the Falls would soak me.
BITD and sh#t....
Yet another useless post in an increasingly useless thread.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Oh yeah? Well, I played left field, and left out for Clark's Nutcrackers for the last two years so there!
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Bob,
You wrote, "Fat wrote: Somehow, I think LongAgo has once again supported the no rap bolt position.
By using a country that suppressed any type of human independence...funny!"
And Bob found another irony in "Fehrmann had a strong personal climbing style and is admired for it . .even through he was a terrible human being...Sean and Doug are kind human beings, have contributed greatly to climbing, their friends and families and are being judge by a supposed taint of a climbing style...WTF!"
I actually intended the post as a diversion from the debate itself, as I said in the lead off to my post. I thought it was rather amazing and humorous how the bolts were placed in light of the entire discussion. Here we are pounding around ground up versus top down means of placing bolts with hammers a given when, way back when, there were some folks not using hammers at all! Wow. Kinda a nice swat in the head no matter what camp we stand in, no?
klk,
Thanks for your knowledgeable discussion of the historical context. It's always sobering and humbling to be reminded our style debate, seemingly so hot and current, is ancient, never mind common to struggles between factions in any human endeavors and organizations, if we can believe (and understand) the sociological paradigm Shingle brings to our attention.
Of course what's telling, again, in the recent posts is how difficult it is to get away from a value laden approach to the style debate. Adherents to one style are held up, others torn down, one experience held superior to another, one associated with good human beings, others bad or politically suspect or whatever. I've repeatedly tried to move the debate from that square to another, as per my tome way back when on the thread: forget the inherent merits or demerits of the styles in question and ask, "How can their adherents agree to practice their preferred styles in the same area at the same time without tearing at one another's throats? What agreements between the two camps would get us there? How might those agreements come to fruition?"
I've see few glimmers on the thread in that direction. Well, maybe next time.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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"Clark's Nutcrackers"
Is that that weird old guy at the bottom of the hill in old el portal that always wanted to show me his "basement" when I was 10?
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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I have a great idea. Why don't you all shut the f*#k up. Enough already. This thread crossed the boarder of pathetic along time ago.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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No, seriously, why don't you tell us how you really feel?
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Well, to tell the truth, I'm very shy. That comment must have come from my alter ego.
Bad monkey....
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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3000 we have to get there... after that .... who knows.. this may go on forever...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tom...I love your writing and the way you express yourself. Times changes and so do people...hope you are doing well and life is good.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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May 10, 2008 - 10:16pm PT
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Bob,
Thanks for the note. I've enjoyed your probing posts, causing head scratching on this end. Nothing like a good trad/sport debate to keep the neurons flying.
I see another one brewing on another thread, maybe a bit more than this one on the subject of agreements, coexistence, even the dreaded committee or organization of climbers to find some practical compromises, area by area. That's the most productive direction for the debate, me thinks, as you know. I'll stay tuned.
Thanks for the well wishes. Life's pretty good here at the moment with bod holding up, good fam, OK work, fun cycling and some crags in the picture. No big regrets, at least so far.
Cheers,
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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DixieGal
Trad climber
NC
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May 10, 2008 - 11:12pm PT
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Upon further reflection about the SFHD and Growing Up, I realize
that I am full of s**t, and am unqualified to comment or criticize.
Let me try to explain one aspect of my feelings.
I would feel qualified if I climb hard, climb a lot, have never
sport climbed and never clipped a bolt. The truth is, I have
clipped other people's bolts, I have even clipped other people's
bolt ladders and rivet ladders. On a wall, it is so reassuring to
reach a nice, bomber bolted belay (instead of having to equalize
trad gear and then hang the ledge and bags off it). For me, it is
more fulfilling to climb a route without bolts, especially at
belays, where the possibility of bailing via rappel is harder.
But the truth is, I have clipped bolts, so can I criticize?
Perhaps others on this forum are more qualified, with years of
hard and honest climbing under their belts. But I wonder how
many high profile, traditional climbers exist, who have made a
lot of first ascents and never placed a bolt. I seriously doubt
that there are too many.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 02:54am PT
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Tom...glad to hear you are doing better.
I'm not going to lose an old friend over some bolts or the chance to gain a new one...life is way too short.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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May 11, 2008 - 03:01am PT
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DixieGal, I think you are mistaking what exactly Trad is to most. Many trad routes have bolts. A gear only route is often easier to pro than a trad slab route where the legitimate places to get protection are slim and none and the only way to avoid death is to place a bolt. So, having climbed for a long time, generally speaking most of the hardest climbs I have done, both physically and mentally, had bolts on them. Just not very damn many.
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Kid Cossack
climber
Jopshua Tree, CA
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May 11, 2008 - 03:08am PT
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Along with my other half the late Bruce Hawkins, We never believed in absolutes on how a route should be accomplished. We didn't care whether it was rap bolted or ground up as long as it was done in good style.
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Andrew Barnes
Ice climber
Albany, NY
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May 11, 2008 - 01:29pm PT
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G_Gnome,
"Many trad routes have bolts. A gear only route is often easier to
pro than a trad slab route where the legitimate places to get
protection are slim and none and the only way to avoid death is to
place a bolt."
I agree that many trad routes have bolts. I also agree that a
gear only route is typically easier to protect than a trad slab
route, which can be terrifying.
My first exposure to slab climbing was at Stone Mountain in NC:
I thought the runouts were long. Almost all routes are R rated.
Some X rated routes, 5.10 slab routes with no pro except the
belay bolts. Scary stuff, "cheese grater" falls. All but one or
two routes are ground up, bolted from stances. Without the bolts,
most routes with be impossible, except for soloists. However,
once the (sparsely placed) bolts are there, maybe one or two
bolts per pitch + belay bolts, the game is different. Totally
different game with bolts (albeit very sparsely placed).
A bolt is a bolt, an rp is an rp, and no pro is no pro.
(John B's post: "Up is up, down is down")
Maybe my stance is too extreme, but if I reduce the rock to my
level by taking out the drill, it is a different game.
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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May 11, 2008 - 07:01pm PT
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Wildone wrote:
"Tradcragrat- there's been some heavy hittin dudes on the other side too. Who is in support of a particular side of the argument, as a criterion on which side to put in with, belongs in high school. Focus on the logic and the argument, forget who says what. That's what I think, anyway."
I agree; I was just responding to this from Kimmage:
"I've noticed the people who are knocking him are all from areas like San Fran and So Cal. My advise to you is to stay where you are. In the city. You are all Yuppies who only care about legal crap. If you;re climbing, you're climbing and that's that. Sean has done more in his life than half of you in here so if yu want something done your way, go do it yourself and stop doggin on people who bust their asses to make a great route. And by the way, Sean is a very respected climber around Yosemite and El Portal and has always out up glorious routes that no one ever thought could be done. Maybe you should accomplish something great before you talk sh#t on the internet about MY UNCLE!"
Carry on.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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May 12, 2008 - 02:05am PT
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Fair enough man. There's no way you could know this, but Kim will be intensely loyal to Sean all of her life for reasons beyond family. She knows who he is inside, as does anyone who spends a little time with him, and knows that he is true quality.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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May 12, 2008 - 10:11am PT
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first one to 3000 posts wins a new hilti!!!!
in reality i think most people are upset about the "style and location" more than the bolts.
Bolts are a part of climbing and will always be so. But style and respect for style and the respect for wild places is what is making the waves here....
Half Dome is not Smith Rocks, Red River Gorge or Las Vegas...
Half Dome is steeped in history and adventure, and rap bolting it takes that flavor away from a magical place.
I would rather see them do the route ground up, place a few more holes (can be patched later, and you would never know they were there) and climb it in the style that has dominated FA's for decades, than to open up Hd for sport bolting. Once Pandora's box is opened, you can't close it....
ks
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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May 12, 2008 - 05:20pm PT
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Wildone,
I respect the fact that Kim stood up for one of her own, and I'm sure you're right about Sean, though I don't know him. But just tossing personal attacks at the other side, saying they're a bunch of yuppies, is a bit uncalled for IMHO. Just like you said, this is a legitimate debate about how to use a resource we all love, not a contest to see who packs the most meat.
Peace.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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May 12, 2008 - 06:09pm PT
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So what was the story with Crest Jewel? I heard a vague reference to some banter about that around fifteen hundred posts ago.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 12, 2008 - 08:57pm PT
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"But I wonder how many high profile, traditional climbers exist, who have made a lot of first ascents and never placed a bolt. I seriously doubt that there are too many."
Um, hi. I'm one of them [except for the high profile part]
Isn't Reinhold Messner among them?
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Andrew Barnes
Ice climber
Albany, NY
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May 13, 2008 - 01:11am PT
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Pete,
Glad to hear that you have never placed a bolt.
I was also wondering about Reinhold Messner - after his essay on
the murder of the impossible, it seems unlikely that he would
place bolts.
I was also wondering, if there are more "boltless" climbers in
the category of "alpinists": Mark Twight, in his book on alpine
climbing has this to say about bolts: "Not in my book".
Recently I heard Doug Scott give a slide show at the Adirondack
Ice Fest, and he openly lamented the proliferation of bolt tactics. He had deep misgivings about one of his (American) partners taking out the drill for a short section of drilled
hook placements close to the summit of some Himalayan wall. I
doubt that he has placed bolts on any of his routes.
Among all the hardcore British climbers, as well as the eastern
European ones, there must be several who have stuck to the
boltless ethic and still managed to climb hard, make lots of
first ascents. Was Derek Hersey a "boltless" climber?
Among American climbers, and "rock" climbers in particular,
there have got to be several "boltless" figures who still
cranked at the cutting edge of their times. Just wondering
who some of these guys are/were.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 13, 2008 - 09:54am PT
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" He had deep misgivings about one of his (American) partners taking out the drill for a short section of drilled
hook placements close to the summit of some Himalayan wall."
Since when is Greg Child a Merrican?
Yes, I read of that. Fortunately they had Greg along with his El Cap experience, and he had to drill a rivet ladder for I believe only the last ten metres or so to reach a totally blank summit. Was this ascent legit? I'm not sure. But summits do matter.
You can climb without bolts if you have big balls, which might mean having bigger balls than your ego, and choosing to leave something you can't climb by legit [no bolt] means, which I sometimes did, and saving it for a time when you are stronger or bolder, or even ballsier - saving it for someone else who is stronger or bolder than you. However this being said, most of the routes I did this for have since been rap-bolted and "climbed". {sigh}
I have placed one lead rivet on El Cap, when I soloed Native Son and pulled off a hooking flake. In the past, I sometimes added rivets to sketchy El Cap belays, until it was pointed out to me that this was not legit, and so now at poor belays I take out the old bolts with my tuning forks, drill out the hole, and replace it with a new belay bolt.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 10:04am PT
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AB wrote:Among American climbers, and "rock" climbers in particular,
there have got to be several "boltless" figures who still
cranked at the cutting edge of their times. Just wondering
who some of these guys are/were.
Wow...they don't placed them but they sure do clip them. F*#king hilarious.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 13, 2008 - 10:11am PT
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Well, um, yes.
Just like the man who is opposed to capital punishment yet stands in the village square to watch the hanging, I have clipped a few bolts on sport routes in the past. [I no longer sport climb]
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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May 13, 2008 - 02:22pm PT
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....and pulled on numerous bolt ladders on the big stone, no?
But we shant be PLACING any of those! Oh no!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 13, 2008 - 03:25pm PT
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Yep, plenty of bolt ladders I've clipped, too. Believe me, I am not missing the irony and hypocrisy.
Is a bolt ladder connecting blank features on a big wall justified? I suppose, but does that make it right? Or should more first ascensionists use their Lovetrons and Tequila Straws, like on Scorched Earth and on Disorderly Conduct?
But at least the bolt ladders were placed climbing UP, not from the top down.
I still like Royal Robbins' response to his bolt ladder on Tis-sa-ack:
"Why, it's probably the most craftsmanlike ladder of that many bolts in the world!"
See you in the Village Square, or more likely on the El Cap bridge next week.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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May 13, 2008 - 03:27pm PT
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Ummm, no you won't.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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May 16, 2008 - 03:38pm PT
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So that's it?
Have we reached some sort of resolution?
Or have we finally figured out that in incindiary issues such as this, opinions are never changed?
Did we all get sick of people just waiting till the other side stopped talking so they could say their piece, again, with slightly different verbage ad nauseum?
Do we agree to disagree?
Could we get a final quarter summary from the living legend Fish?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 16, 2008 - 04:03pm PT
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A bit upthread, FatTrad suggested we have a baseball game at the FaceLift. (Softball, I hope.) That sounds like a fine idea that we can all agree on. Or a game of soccer. Followed by a swim off El Cap bridge, and a BBQ.
I suggest, though, that the teams be chosen by lot.
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sawin
climber
So., CA.
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May 16, 2008 - 06:32pm PT
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Andrew can these R/X routes you mention be re-hearsed
and or accomplished by TR?
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Andrew Barnes
Ice climber
Albany, NY
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May 16, 2008 - 07:06pm PT
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Sawin,
For slab routes at Stone Mountain in NC: it is a 500 foot cliff,
so in theory, it is possible to rap down and top-rope rehearse
most pitches. It wouldn't necessarily be pleasant or straightforward, but it is possible. Just as it's possible to
hike to the top of El Cap and rap down/rehearse certain pitches.
Not necessarily straightforward, but possible.
At Stone Mountain in North Carolina, all but one or two of these routes were established ground up. Typically nowadays, people lead the routes from the
ground up, or they don't get on the route at all. Sometimes this
means taking long and unpleasant falls. I've had a friend who
took a 60 foot cheese grater and narrowly escaped hitting the
deck. I've seen another case where a duy decked from 30 feet,
before clipping the first bolt. He had a bouldering pad on the
ground, and this helped alleviate his fall.
I've had friends
protect 5.11 climbing by using duct-taped skyhooks. For the
most serious X-rated routes, there are probably fewer takers,
and the local climbers seem to like it that way. I've also seen
some people get really comfortable on friction slabs and start
free-soloing a lot there. We won't hear from these people (they
don't talk about their solos), but they do climb - just regular
folks who won't make it into the magazines.
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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May 17, 2008 - 01:43am PT
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Kid,
I'm starting to think that way.
Just having trouble letting go.
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sawin
climber
So., CA.
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May 20, 2008 - 10:08pm PT
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just regular folks who won't make it into the magazines.
Some of us refer'd to climbing competition as a rodeo circuit.
I had a world champion on my crew however he was not qualified
to do the work I did nor did he. I tried to always avoid the
news, however the times they caught my later crew they always
gave us a positive write up. I never competed in those climbing
circuits I just did the work.
Away from work those slab climbs are fun and that's were I
started easy to moderate 5'th class free soloing with no news
write ups and it's the self satisfaction and peace of mind that
I enjoy with rock climbing.
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denzuki
Trad climber
Plymouth, England
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May 21, 2008 - 05:41am PT
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'I wonder how many high profile, trad climber who made first ascents exist, who never placed a bolt.'? Walter Bonatti. Some of his trad routes since, have been over-bolted. Sad, very sad in deed.
Can't climb? Bolt!
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Denzuki and medusa-You're both idiots.
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poop
Boulder climber
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remember everbody!!!!!
your all a bunch of climbing geeks!!!!!!
nobody really gives a sh#t.
if doug rap bolted, so what!!!!!!!!!, tuff sh#t, nobody gives a sh#t that your a climber with or without ethics. your a retarded ego monkey liveing in your world only
your geek friends think has a godlike history.
unless you can free ball it and climb naked with chalk ball tied to your dick
please
take more mushrooms,,,,and boulder naked with toilet paper hanging from your ass around camp 4.
i will join you
and then peton rap bolt midnightlightning ground up
cheers
poop
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Buggs
Trad climber
Eagle River, Alaska
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It's still alive! Yes!! I will bring my ball glove and maybe a soccer cleat for my wooden leg. Will we have enough players?
Is it bolters versus trads or what? Spurts vs dirtbags?
Either way or whatever, I'm in!!
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poop
Boulder climber
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and hay wildone.
your and idiot for saying the word idiot
its GEEK!
cheers
ill be bouldering at high tied down at mickeys beach this evening if you wanna rape later.
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poop
Boulder climber
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sorry Buggs
its GEEKS vs GEEKS
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denzuki
Trad climber
Plymouth, England
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Jun 25, 2008 - 02:50am PT
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The first time I visited Yosemite I was captured by its overwhelming atmosphere. Approaching the foot of El Cap I walked for ages along the foot of the monolith just brushing my hand along the mirror smooth (in places)granite. Awesome. But on looking up there they were - someone had deliberately damaged a million years of gentle polishing, by drilling and placing expansion bolts. Why?
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denzuki
Trad climber
Plymouth, England
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Jun 25, 2008 - 02:55am PT
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The first time I visited Yosemite I was captured by its overwhelming atmosphere. Approaching the foot of El Cap I walked for ages along the foot of the monolith just brushing my hand along the mirror smooth (in places)granite. Awesome. But on looking up there they were - someone had deliberately damaged a million years of gentle polishing, by drilling and placing expansion bolts. Why?
'Denzuki and medusa are Idiots.' Really! Wildone - an obvious expert in more than one field.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 25, 2008 - 04:20am PT
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It's near the end of June and nobody's noticed if there has been a second ascent (you know what I mean)
I'm wondering if anybody's gone up and sent the thing and just kept quiet about it so they didn't have to deal with the controversy around the route? or WTF?
Seems like a Potter or a Caldwell could just make a happy day out of the thing.
Peace
Karl
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couchmaster
climber
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Jun 25, 2008 - 10:59am PT
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Kurt nailed one of my thoughts when he said: first one to 3000 posts wins a new hilti!!!!
in reality i think most people are upset about the "style and location" more than the bolts.
Bolts are a part of climbing and will always be so. But style and respect for style and the respect for wild places is what is making the waves here....
Half Dome is not Smith Rocks, Red River Gorge or Las Vegas...
Half Dome is steeped in history and adventure, and rap bolting it takes that flavor away from a magical place.
I would rather see them do the route ground up, place a few more holes (can be patched later, and you would never know they were there) and climb it in the style that has dominated FA's for decades, than to open up Hd for sport bolting. Once Pandora's box is opened, you can't close it....
ks
However, if you then wind up with a piss poor route that a dude like Scott there, advocating for chopping this route, can't or won't climb ever again because of extreme fear, what is the point of that? The route gets 3 or 4 ascents and then falls into obscurity.
Pointless and selfish for those who would have liked to have followed.
Which is why different areas have different standards and issues and styles.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 25, 2008 - 11:51am PT
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Coz wrote
"Karl, your words are of a happy white man thinking the ends justify the means. Shultz and I will be at the reservation, crying in our hippie tea."
I beg to differ. Southern Belle has bolts too and has made few happy (except for a few who like the "Idea" that it exists. They'll never do it.)
Muir encouraged folks to come to the mountains and get their glad tidings. If some elite climber wants to come dance with death, they have your route to vision quest on, if some semi-elite climber wants to move over beautiful stone and feel happy in mountains, they can do growing up. Seems like a win win to me.
Quit your crying. It's just an idea to you. You'll never see those bolts nor climb either of these routes. Getting worked up over it is just another form of fundamentalism. Future climbers aren't being cheated out of their adventure since the history of second ascents in that area proves that future climbers are either scared or not interested.
It's becoming obvious that nothing has really changed. 95% of actual climbing in the valley consists of weekend warriors and serious climbers doing often repeated routes that get their blood running but only "might" kill them. The other 5% consists of the Elite thinking their routes matter when it's really more like celebrity dramas, everybody pays attention but it doesn't actually affect the rest of us.
Peace
Karl
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sawin
climber
So., CA.
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Jun 25, 2008 - 12:13pm PT
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Coz, Karl
this has been addressed previous within this thread.
Somehow does there need to be a vote or just sovereign
rule? With the later how is it to be enforced without
national forest, park etc. printouts/handouts?
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jun 25, 2008 - 01:09pm PT
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What a bunch of elitist bullshit that is.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 25, 2008 - 01:22pm PT
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I didn't bump this thread back to live but I fed it. Personally, I think it would be better to let it sink back into oblivion until somebody climbs it
Peace
Karl
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jun 25, 2008 - 02:16pm PT
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what is the 'time to live' period for the 'try' by the tradsters?
or if as soon as someone expresses an interest in trying are we to preserve it indefinitely?
sounds good to me.
heh, sorry Karl, just stirring the internet pot.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 25, 2008 - 03:22pm PT
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Seems like after darn near 3,000 posts someone would at least go up there and have a look at it?? Be a shame to go to all that work and still have no one climb the damn thing.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Yonder
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Jun 25, 2008 - 03:25pm PT
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Maybe it got re-bolted in all that time....or there's another one!(gulp)
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Jun 25, 2008 - 03:29pm PT
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" The west is owned by the doers. Always have been too."
-Almost Stegnerein
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Jim E
climber
Mountain Road
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Sep 16, 2008 - 04:11pm PT
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bump
heeheeheeheeheehee
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 16, 2008 - 04:15pm PT
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Wouldn't be surprised of somebody went and climbed it and just didn't want to jump into the fray so they kept it to themselves.
No info on that, just spraying
Peace
Karl
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Sep 16, 2008 - 04:27pm PT
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karl, do you want to tell us you sent the rig?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 16, 2008 - 04:53pm PT
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No secret story, just can't believe somebody with the skills hasn't just hiked up and sent it. Why not? Come on, How many times do people have the opportunity to do a second ascent of a route like that?
I'd love to say I sent it but instead I'll say i'm not buff enough for it
peace
Karl
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Sep 16, 2008 - 05:02pm PT
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Interesting--wasn't this route "put up for the people", as in rap-bolted en masse to provide accessible (free)climbing on the South Face ?
All good plans...
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Flashlight
climber
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Sep 16, 2008 - 05:11pm PT
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Doug and Sean are more man then any of you whiners could ever dream of being.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Sep 16, 2008 - 05:23pm PT
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"Doug and Sean are more man then any of you whiners could ever dream of being."
it will probably be a woman that will climb it next anyways.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Sep 16, 2008 - 05:54pm PT
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Or, a wife and husband team...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 16, 2008 - 06:11pm PT
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Fatty wrote
"Karl,
I've got three tuning forks and two crowbars, think that will do? "
Sorry fatty, you know how I feel, you just have to fork yourself!
;-)
Karl
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Flashlight
climber
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Sep 16, 2008 - 06:34pm PT
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Fatty, don't bruise your chest with all that pounding...
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Sep 16, 2008 - 06:45pm PT
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jim e, get a life you practical joker!
or dredge up a thread from 1999, i dare ya...
wait, do we party like it's 1999?
of course we do, and we shoot mean hoops, and then eat hot cakes.
Prince vs Rick James, one on one hoops, who wins?
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Sep 16, 2008 - 06:50pm PT
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"Doug and Sean are more man then any of you whiners could ever dream of."
elitist climbers only climb rocks well.
it takes more than being a good climber to be a man.
take care
dave
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 16, 2008 - 07:19pm PT
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Really Jody, WTF do you know about this?
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Flashlight
climber
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Sep 16, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
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"Really Jody, WTF do you know about this?"
Quite a bit actually.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Sep 16, 2008 - 08:24pm PT
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compared to what?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 16, 2008 - 10:37pm PT
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Apparently not scared.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Sep 16, 2008 - 10:37pm PT
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DaftRat posted...
"I've got three tuning forks and two crowbars, think that will do"?
Answer...
Make a far greater mess than the route ever could.
I'd rather see the Compressor Route chopped. Now that is a blight!
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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Sep 16, 2008 - 11:11pm PT
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"I rope soloed the first seven or eight pitches free over a couple of lazy days. ..At least one protection bolt was a foot from a bomber cam and several others are not necessary to prevent dangerous falls. ...It did feel wierd to be climbing a sport climb on such a big and ominous slabby face with so few routes, though. The route is an anomaly but the quality of the climbing is superb."
What route were you on? If you only climbed the first seven or eight pitches, you were nowhere near where the bolted face climbing began. And the part about a bolt being a foot from a bomber cam? The only time a bolt was placed near a "crack" (other than anchors) was when the "crack" was a sloping lieback that wouldn't accept a 6 inch cam. Looks like OW from below, then you get there, and it's not. Also, in order to get to the face climbing, you should be comfortable at .13-.
Curious.
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MisterE
Social climber
My Inner Nut
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Sep 16, 2008 - 11:27pm PT
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Holy huge bump, Batman!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 17, 2008 - 12:29am PT
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At least the discussion is taking place on an elevated level.
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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Sep 17, 2008 - 07:04am PT
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...for the most part...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Is 2315 the record?
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MisterE
Trad climber
Raising Arizona
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This is like a 5.11+ R onsight read if you're new to it.
Cripes.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I thought you bumped it to make sure that it would stay ahead of the Gaza-related threads.
John
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
X
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once I finish this beer,I'm gonna head up ta the dome, and put this flag on top, it will be a glorious day for turtles everywhere...
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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You know what they say to the University of Maryland
opponents (UofM mascot is the Terrapin). . .
"Fear the Turtle"!!!!!!
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ec
climber
ca
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I was wondering when someone was going to bump this...
'dead and stinkin'
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I guess in the winter, things get slow in climbing world and we can take horses from the grave for another beating...
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GDavis
Trad climber
|
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Its like walking by the bathroom right after a forty five minute bout with diarrhea. It smells horrible, but when you look you don't see anything.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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GDavis,
A full mouthful of chicken and rice just exploded on my computer screen after reading that. Absolutely classic !!
Cracko
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
O a k t o w n
|
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I think it's stupid they took it up the arch with like 2 other routes . They should have stuck it in-between Karma and So.B.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
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Piton Ron, I also wonder if this thread is a record number of posts (though I am not 'helping', am I).
Karl, this horse seems to be flailed where it is nothing but bones... no flesh or even skin.
What was your motivation Walleye?
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Michelle
Trad climber
El Frickin' Paso
|
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I haven't posted on this thread, so here it is.
(haven't even read it!)
ha!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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I've heard some of the bolts got chopped.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 19, 2009 - 09:09pm PT
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Climbing threads are good.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 25, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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Wooo HOoo
I got the coveted 2333 post!
How come this thread got bumped back to life without anything to say about it?
Somebody go climb it for god's sake
PEace
Karl
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Redwreck
Social climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Mar 25, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
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I'd totally climb it but it looks kinda hard.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Mar 25, 2009 - 05:20pm PT
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real question is, who will get the 2345th post?
About Karma, how much of a pain in the cankles would it be to upgrade the bolts on that, as Chicken Skinner mentioned in the other thread? He added that some should be moved to protect the follower as well, etc. With a route that traversing on a wall that steep, I can't imagine the construction job that would take... not to mention every bolt on that thing is coming on 25 years old.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 25, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
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Who wants to climb a rap job in Yosemite anyway?
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Mar 25, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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Not to mention a sport job you have to hike to get to.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mar 25, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
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A sign that the apocalypse is upon us- 2300+ posts on a single route on Half Dome.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Mar 25, 2009 - 09:43pm PT
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Jim... no kidding.... and just wait until the chopping begins or is confirmed. 3000 posts here we come!
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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Mar 25, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
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Can't believe I'm going to post to the biggest dead horse that the trail crew needs to blow up with dynamite...
The route is a work of art. Had some hardmen who just got off of El Nino go up there and set up camp only to get snowed on on send day. They were bummed. Had to leave the valley to go back to work. I was bummed because the route needs a second ascent.
You wanna chop it? Climb it. Then chop it. I guarantee you'll break your own heart halfway through the first pitch, just like Robbins did, and live to regret it, just like Robbins did.
Like, 40 years ago? Figure it the f*#k out. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. I can't believe I fed the troll.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 11, 2010 - 12:20am PT
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any news on a second ascent?
it's been a couple of years now...
...and all in all, I'd rather be arguing over climbing then about politics, conspiracies and avatar impersonation
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 11, 2010 - 12:49am PT
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Ed,
Chad climbed the first 13 pitches (big arch to left traverse) in March 2009:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=838578&msg=839981#msg839981
[non-bump edit:] Chad's was not the 2nd descent - they repeated the arch and traverse part which was established from the ground up. Upper rap bolted slab not repeated.
The 2nd ascent of the ground up part, unless somebody else did it earlier.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
. . . not !
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Mar 11, 2010 - 02:37am PT
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a 2nd descent ?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Mar 11, 2010 - 02:55am PT
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still has snow doesn't it?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Mar 11, 2010 - 04:28am PT
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Rap from the top,
Then you can do the second ascent......
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Mar 11, 2010 - 10:18am PT
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Sheesh, Mungie,
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Mar 11, 2010 - 10:23am PT
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I just hope whoever does the second, and other ascents doesn't leave a pile of garbage at the base.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Mar 11, 2010 - 10:50am PT
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Sorry, just wanted
2345
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Mar 11, 2010 - 11:01am PT
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Tell us how you really feel Jefe!
Seriously...tick...tick...tick...tick....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 21, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
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still a favorite, believe it or not...
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 21, 2010 - 10:29pm PT
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Yeah, at least it's about climbing! I'm going to start going to political forums and trying to get some folks riled up about retrochiseling and see how that goes.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 21, 2010 - 11:14pm PT
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Ya know, I heard it did have a second ascent...
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 22, 2010 - 01:21am PT
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Hey, Steve Grossman:
You have not made a single post here. What's your take on Growing Up?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Apr 22, 2010 - 03:37am PT
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Plenty of capable teams around the last few seasons, this season should prove the same.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Apr 22, 2010 - 08:28am PT
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are no walls sacred any more? no areas worth keeping some juice in the game?
no face worthy of adventure, or are we in too much of a hurry and too many video and writing deals in the way?
in the late 80's, the argument that JB, myself and just a few others were making was: do you rap bolting at your rap bolting areas, leave a few places still intact for the adventure seeker..
smith/cosgrove 2012
ground up , step up
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Apr 22, 2010 - 09:17am PT
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Bruce Springsteen - Glory Days
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 22, 2010 - 10:48am PT
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"The Clean Climber stands humbly before the untouched stone. Otherwise one could become guilty of destroying a line for the capable climbers of the future to satisfy his impatient ego in the present. Every climb has it's [sic] time, which need not be today."
I nearly choked on my coffee when I read that. Shameful.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Apr 22, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
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Couldn't agree more Pete.....Chief, you nailed it.....one of the best posts in the entire thread.
The hypocrisy of this whole thing is a pathetic joke.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 22, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
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the new definition of "clean climbing".....have the NPS clean up your mess after spewing about a rapp bolted climb.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 22, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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Anyone with an open mind at all could see Sean was fully capable of doing the climb ground up. He chose to rap bolt to create the best climb for future climbers and not put a bunch of extra holes in Half Dome.
Rap bolting half dome was wrong in a lot of our opinions but creating the best route is a far different motivation than money (haha, like climbing ever made an American much money) or noteriety (how many FAs does he have already?)
I'm pretty disgusted by a lot of people I used to have respect for. I think it's great to preserve respect and admiration for the traditional ground up style, but the personal attacks and claiming you know someone elses motivation are LAME and detract from what should be a thoughtful presentation of your opinions, which could actually influence people rather than just turn them off.
Sean was more than forthcoming on the other thread about the gear left up there that he paid to have removed and was screwed over on. What about the other stuff he cleaned up that was already there? I guess that doesn't matter when you are just looking for reasons to attack.
When you are on your death bed are you going to be more proud of the fact that you were an as#@&%e and protected an unclimbed line for some possible future ascent that conforms to your prefered style or that you had positive, productive relationships with your fellow brothers?
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Apr 22, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
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Pretty cool to know that all the rad sh#t was done 20+ years ago...sure takes the pressure off of us young folks...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 22, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
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atch.
clean climbing old guy leaves trashed out camp in Yosemite wilderness....thats what this is about.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Apr 22, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
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I posted some of this on the other back of Half Dome thread, but it bears repeating...
This same issue of leaving crap on routes/at the base happened not long ago on Mt. Watkins. I went up there only to discover piles of fixed, rotting ropes, haul bags that had turned to dust in the sun and piles of animal-scavenged food. All clearly (in my opinion so don't rag) the leftovers from people trying to free stuff.
What is more important:
A name in the magazines that will help keep your sponsorship?
Preserving our planet for our children's children?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
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Hawkeye, are there photos/link to a new story? I haven't heard or read about the trash issue.
This is precisely why the trash debacle deserves its own thread.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Apr 22, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
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In the age of YouTube and FaceSpray (whoops, I mean FaceBook) this point of view may seem dated, but I find all of the explaining about the trash left at the base of the south face to be insufficient rationalizing. Talk of sponsors, paying others to clean up trash, half-million dollar homes, 1300 ft. of fixed line abandoned at the base, are all so far out of my realm of climbing experience that I just cannot empathize.
Maybe it's just because I'm average . . .
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 22, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
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One of Werner's first posts on this thread, still gets me busting every time I read it!
OMFG ..... I think Walt's coming out of the ground.
The fuking end is here for sure, eeeeeaaahhhhhh eeerrrggghhh!
Huh?
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 22, 2010 - 03:01pm PT
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Why do I get the feeling that half of what went on up there with the trash isn't even what's being discussed. It sure seems to me a number of people are assuming what went on, offering their opinion about it, and then proliferating the untruths.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
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Nobody reads the last post on a page
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
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It's important to note that climbing ranger Jesse M posted info on the trash in another thread
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=838578&tn=100
it's worth knowing that two folks were cited and received their punishment humbly.
It's something that they paid somebody to do what they couldn't at the time. It's something that they got friends to do part of it. They could have been better about how the trash went down, but as long as people are doing big projects with fixed lines a long hike from the trailhead, they will sometimes get forced to leave by weather and circumstances before removing them. Perhaps that means they shouldn't do that? You decide. I don't do it. That said, the sacred Southern Belle had lines fixed on it for some time as well if I remember correctly.
Peace
Karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 22, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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I do Karl.
.......I read the last post on a page.......
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 22, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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i think that the damning thing is an article in the rags, from the clean climbing old guy with no mention of the crap left behind. nore was there any mention in this thread earlier...of course that would have incited the troops to really froth a tthe mouth. rapp-bolting and trashing the place all in one thread.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 22, 2010 - 04:59pm PT
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as cool as karl wants to be, he has a hardon for bolted lines..
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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Personally, I've placed about two bolts in Yosemite. I've done a lot more R rated climbs than sport climbs. I just don't have a problem with this one and have stated why on this thread.
Wasn't saying Coz left a mess up there, just that if you leave fixed lines up and the weather goes to hell or mom gets sick, you could be stuck with a mess that you might try to hire someobody else to clean up
Peace
Karl
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 22, 2010 - 06:35pm PT
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Just noticed this but have barely skimmed.
Yes, we left some trash.
There was miscommunication between us about who was packing out what.
I am quite humiliated.
Yes, we acknowledged it to Jesse and his crew.
Tried to go up and pack it out myself, but they already had.
Yes, we were fined and we paid.
I'm off to pick up my daughter at school and am busy after.
I'll be back tomorrow to consider your comments and respond.
Doug
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
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I already spoke about the trash issue.
As for the route, I'm tolerant of a bunch of different styles. I personally appreciate when people put up routes with a view toward stoking out other people instead of saving time and money or having their own personal adventure at the expense of those in the future.
As it stands, it seems to hardly matter except in our minds. Southern Belle has had about 3 or 4 ascents in 20 years and nobody is going to do Growing Up even though supposedly safer and stellar. Is it the Hiking? That's what a hardman who I tried to talk into going up there (not with me) said.
We just like to be dyed-in-the-world traditionalists. Guess what, the next generation will decide, so it's good folks have stated their case here for future reference
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
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I know it's a long thread Chief but DR has written extensively about many of these issues in this thread when it was still news. How many times does a guy have to explain himself?
Peace
karl
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 22, 2010 - 07:38pm PT
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karl,
do you condone leaving shet in the yose backcountry?
this is truly a sordid tale. this makes wings of steel look absolutely puritan and see how much angst there was with those threads...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 22, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
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Leaving garbage in the backcountry = BAD
Having the ballz to come on here and face his embarrassment = GOOD
A lot of internetters would just be defensive and pose and shout about all the things they did right, and how they were misunderstood and such.
DR coming to the table basically with his hat in his hand is more than many here could muster. And we see people here all the time who just can't admit they were wrong.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 22, 2010 - 09:34pm PT
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I personally appreciate when people put up routes with a view toward stoking out other people instead of saving time and money or having their own personal adventure at the expense of those in the future.
Their own personal adventure at the expense of those in the future...
This idea saddens me. The personal adventures of great climbers do not rob from the future, they define it by raising the bar.
So what if Southern Belle has only a handfull of ascents. I still say that route is a gift to the future, a great challenge rarely met. This as yet unclimbed (bottom to top) Growing Up (can anyone suggest a more arrogant name?) is another story...
A lot of internetters would just be defensive and pose and shout about all the things they did right, and how they were misunderstood and such.
DR coming to the table basically with his hat in his hand is more than many here could muster. And we see people here all the time who just can't admit they were wrong.
DR is not your typical internetter. He is a well known, well published figure in climbing. He has no choice but to respond, what else could he do?
DR’s books and writings were a big influence on my climbing style and the choices I made along the way. I am confused by this route and the choices he made. If I could snap my fingers and have him over for dinner at my home to try to get to the nut of it I would… Most cordially I will add.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 22, 2010 - 09:44pm PT
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Gotta agree there, Karl--your opinion about leaving routes to "stoke" future parties is sadly misguided.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 22, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
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DR’s books and writings were a big influence on my climbing style and the choices I made along the way. I am confused by this route and the choices he made. If I could snap my fingers and have him over for dinner at my home to try to get to the nut of it I would… Most cordially I will add.
Me too Kris....me too.
I know that he explained, or tried to explain his turnaround, but I still don't get it. JB stuck by his guns, that DR helped design and define.
How he was convinced that this was somehow better.
I respect he and Sean as people and climbers, but this route just rubs me wrong somehow. I guess I can't put my finger on it either. This route by itself will not destroy Half Dome, I just can't get over the idea that so disagrees with everything I was taught by so many of you....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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One of you guys should at least climb up and try the route if it's so unadventurous and see wassup.
How long you want to kick the guy?
Totally reminds me of Robbins wailing about the Dawn Wall, chopping it, and then saying it was a mistake. None of ya'll diss the Dawn Wall these days.
Maybe he's just ahead of his time and yall don't like it just like they didn't like hangdogging or using ANY bolts for pro.
I don't really have a dog in the game cause I just climb what I like. It's when you hang your ego validity on your climbing ethos that you crap bricks when somebody doesn't dance to your tune
Choose your hero, if you know the whole scoop, they usually did something you don't approve of at sometime. Even Jb.
Peace
karl
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Apr 22, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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Wow, you guys gotta get over yourselves. It ain't the 70's anymore in case you haven't noticed, rapbolting has been in the Valley for awhile now, get used to it.
There's lots of routes on EL Cap that go free but most people choose to do them as aid lines, doesn't this get your panty's in a bunch? I mean free is free right? why continue to aid whats been done in the purest style?
As far as garbage in the backcountry? what about those cables on Half Dome? thats as trashie as it gets. The Park Sevice needs to get a big fine and take that crap down. . .
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 22, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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Rick,
> DR and his past decades of ranting the "CLEAN" deal.
>
> He knows/knew better and was the leader of this group.
DR was not the leader of the GU group, Sean was.
Or do you mean DR was the leader of the "CLEAN" group?
As in using nuts vs. pins? That would be a bit of a random association.
Would it mean DR is in trouble for anything "nonclean" that he does,
like maybe not taking a shower every day in the backcountry? :-)
DR explained it was a miscommunication about who was going to carry what.
Sean's responsibility, since Sean was the one going back to do the last climbing on the route.
He and Sarah used the fixed lines to jug up and then led the rap bolted upper third.
I suppose ideally, DR would have checked with Sean about whether all was cleaned up after the last of the climbing. But Sean may have been hard to find - I recall he went back to Vermont to look for work, then eventually ended up in Boulder. The delayed cleanup is not good, but it's (say, 90%) on Sean. He tried to get help to finish it after he left, but wasn't able.
Are you saying it's 50% DR's fault? 100%? 25%?
Just because DR helped promote climbing with nuts, and helped stop the pin scarring on free climbs?
It seems a bit ironic to expect him to solve all of climbing's problems....
I agree the mess kinda sucked, but it's cleaned up thanks to Roger, Jesse, etc., so time to move on, I think.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 22, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
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Some of you are complete asshats!!!
I don't understand the dilemma.....
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 22, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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It ain't the 70's anymore in case you haven't noticed, rapbolting has been in the Valley for awhile now, get used to it.
That's right, how could we have possibly missed that?
BullW, you were around for all that old school ethic back in the day.
Do you really think it's righteous to just abandon it all in favor of the next high grade number, the next mag article, the next youtube video, the next sponsor?
Our old ideals have no merit. The young guys have shown us the light. There is no place for tradition or those that came before. Cast them off to hail the new god moloch.
We should just call open season and have a free for all rap-bolt-fest.
No rules about rap bolting, or any other kind of protection principles, just go for it boys!!
Is that what you're saying?
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 22, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
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Why not just have giant, long caving ropes, and we can all just top rope everything? Don't have to fuss with all those bolts, drills and all the rest of that expensive stuff. Keeps the rock pristine too.
If you make it up without using tension or falling, you've done a good job. If not, go back up and try it again sometime.
The sense of adventure is a subjective thing. A person without much experience could have more of an adventure top roping than someone else leading in traditional style. It all depends on the experiencer.
Renouncing everyone else's concepts of style is exhilarating.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 22, 2010 - 11:33pm PT
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Since this is all about opinions really I guess I'll give mine too. I personally don't have a problem with rap-bolting in and of itself (I do live in the Red after all), but it was the egregious spray that accompanied this particular route (a big flashy magazine article, a high-profile video) and the fact it was on Half Dome that really put GU over the top.
Plenty of us rap-bolt, as well as do ground up routes, we just tend to keep the sport routes in the Valley a bit more quiet and just kind of hope people enjoy them and that's that. And I don't think I could ever bring myself to rap bolt something as iconic as Half Dome... when the crack ran out, I would just think, well that's that--an absolutely amazing 8-pitch 12a crack climb! Why continue desperately to hack a way to the top? And this is no "route for the masses" or for future enjoyment either--there is a 13a slab traverse guarding the hundred or so bolts that hold your hand all the way to the top on 5.10 terrain!
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 22, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
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Bullwinkle, are you kicking sand in the face of Anderson's ghost?
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:03am PT
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survival... i think you're being a little extreme in your a*#essment of deans post.
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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Dean enjoys being contrary. Never been formally introduced to the man.
You have to agree with his second point but only if the aiding is done clean and not on soft rock. Clean aid (hammerless except for anchors) on solid granite should be acceptable. Just saying.
The first point is plain silly.
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pimp daddy wayne
Gym climber
Manchester, VT
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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give it up
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:14am PT
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Wow, you guys gotta get over yourselves.
I don't think so. If Dean wanted to stand with the old school ethic, he would.
Just for the record, jumping on the "new-school-wagon" doesn't make you younger or hipper, you're still from a different era.
What's up with this "you can't aid a free line" thinking? You can take that a step further and say "You can't free that line, it's been aided."
Unrestrained "change" doesn't make you hip or cool, it just makes you look current.
You might be current, but not necessarily relevant.
What is the true RIGHT here?
There is none, do as you please. If I drive four foot spikes all the way up a wall, it's not wrong, just new, right?
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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Yeah, but it all comes down to protecting the rock. Hence, clean aid on a freed line concept.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:21am PT
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Has anyone done a second ascent of this route? Kind of like Wings of Steel...maybe somewhat questionable tactics used and everybody bitching about it but nobody getting off the couch and going for it. Its not that far of a hike...
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:24am PT
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Studly, "but nobody going up it." = wrong for WOS. Plenty of people have been up it.
Not really a fair comparison of these two routes.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:27am PT
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Yeah, but it all comes down to protecting the rock. Hence, clean aid on a freed line concept.
Southern Belle is truly more "protected" rock than Growing Up....PERIOD!
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:33am PT
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Yes, technically, that is a true statement.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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survival- "What's up with this 'You can't aid a free line' thinking?"
Perhaps Dean was being facetious when he implied that!?
As in, hey, you guys are such purist yada yada yada! Why aren't you making a huff about continuing to aid free lines?
But then again, no one continued to do the the East Face of the Column(Astro Man)as an aid route, or the Rostrum after they were successfully freed!
Not certain, but just looking at it from a couple of dif perspectives.
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Brian More
climber
Rancho Palos Verdes, CA
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:45am PT
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"I love him who does not hold back one drop of spirit for himself, but wants to be entirely the spirit of his virtue: thus he strides over the bridge as spirit. " I love him who makes his virtue his addiction and his catastrophe: for his virtue's sake he wants to live on and to live no longer."
One will do what one does... nothing else
I love Sean and Doug
HATRED AND NEGATIVITY= POISON
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 23, 2010 - 01:04am PT
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Chief, DR was long gone while Sean and others were still working the route. Sort of seems like a breech of trust to tell them to all break down their stuff because he was leaving dodge doesn't it? You gotta trust your partners or you shouldn't be climbing with em.
Sh#t happens... some of it is our fault, some others, some fate, some a difference of opinion.
If you insist that everyone act perfectly and not make mistakes, the universe has a way of circling that back in your face in unpleasant ways.
I know I'm a fool! I'd be scared not to be. (and still get spanked by my stuff)
Peace
Karl
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 23, 2010 - 05:42am PT
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You wankers still crying about a rout that none of you have even looked at? Go up there and climb the effin thing and then you can piss and moan about it if you still feel so inclined...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 23, 2010 - 09:46am PT
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Coz wrote
I replaced anchors on El Cap, got popped using a power drill. It is my fault, not Kurt's or the Park Service. I tucked up, only by getting caught.
DR and Sean, can you two stop blaming others? Just be men and take fault.
So the power drill was your fault only but DR needs to take the blame for Sean's routes on Half Dome. Seems like you guys were way more equal partners on the Muir/Shaft than Dr and Sean were on HD. It was way more Sean's gig in both time and climbing chops eh? It only appears to be more of a joint effort on this thread because DR showed up and didn't minimalize his responsibility
Peace
Karl
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 23, 2010 - 11:58am PT
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karl your argument is akin to fighting over what caliber bullet just killed all your family. it doesnt matter.
DR wrote the article, defended the style here and unfortunately added to the degradation of style by leaving trash lying around.
.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Sez so on the tee shirt.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
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ROTFLMAO
Petty comes to mind.
Not Tom though.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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you are right....very petty to spray about a rapp bolted route in the mags and leave a bunch of trash in the backcountry...no arguments there.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 23, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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Stating these guys just left their trash for the man to clean up and they didn't care is inaccurate.
I have no problem taking people to task for their transgressions, but to misrepresent what they did is dishonest.
Sean and Doug have been forthcoming about the trash and accepted responsibility.
//Sean Jones
Apr 20, 2009 - 01:16am PT
All the while me and my fam were packing everything we had and moving to Vermont. Talk about being spread thin. Anyway a couple of friends at the very end absolutely promised me that I could get in the truck and head east in peace with the fam and they would get the rest.
I paid them over a thousand dollars in gear and money to do this and told them they could keep everything they took out as well. At least a thousand or more worth of perfectly good gear.
I checked in with them constantly after leaving and am fully aware that they never did the job. One excuse after the other.
I'm coming to Yosemite for 3 weeks and will be there in less than a week now....had they have done their promised part.....well I wouldn't be going up to So. Face at all.
The first thing I have to do and will be doing now is hiking back up to the pig and dragging all this down. I'm pisse about this as I paid out the ass to have this done and will now be dealing myself.//
//Buju
Big Wall climber
the range of light Apr 21, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
It has been cleaned up //
//JesseM Apr 22, 2010
Let me clarify one other thing. I issued citations for this incident (I can't divulge who received them). The two individuals felt horrible about this incident, and accepted there fines humbly without protest. I can't say I've ever had such gracious offenders. These guys, like all of us at some point, had a string of unfortunate events, and they didn't prioritize this clean-up. They tried to get others in the community to help out, and eventually that happened...only the community members happened to be wearing a uniform.//
//DR
Yes, we left some trash.
There was miscommunication between us about who was packing out what.
I am quite humiliated.
Yes, we acknowledged it to Jesse and his crew.
Tried to go up and pack it out myself, but they already had.
Yes, we were fined and we paid.//
Sean stated the first thing he was going to do when he got back was clean it up, but it had already been done.
Fire away with critisism but base it on what actually happened, don't spin it into something it's not.
On another note:
//The Chief Apr 22, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
I am still waiting for the day that he or anyone else on this project, comes clean on the true manner in which some of these bolts were drilled.//
That sounds to me like an accusation of power drilling. If so why not come right out and say it? And also say what leads you to believe this? That's a serious charge to be thrown out in such a superficial manner. Either talk to them in person if you want to keep it quiet, or state the facts as you know them so it's not vague libel.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Apr 23, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
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Ohhhhh, jaysus, did I step on somebody's toes? Is that a bolt you just clipped into? That's like, so unnatural, dude. Wahhhhh, somebody call the wahmbulance.
Far be it from me to judge others, but...
...lighten up (is that a verb or adjective, it couldn't be a noun, perhaps an adverb... hmmm, food for thought).
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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Apr 23, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
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What in the hell are you talking about chief?
I got tendonitis in my elbow from hand drilling bolts. You ever drill that half dome granodiorite?
You know how many times we'd come back from being in El Portal for the weekend and find our haulbag, (which we'd fixed 15 or so feet off the ground on the first pitch), completely unpacked and spread out at the base with nothing missing?
We were being observed all the time by some anonymous ranger(s)-(I can guess who), and when we left, they went through our sh#t almost every time looking for power that didn't exist.
You wanna talk about a waste of taxpayer dollars? Those guys make 60k to 80k a year. How many days were they sitting on they shoulder of liberty cap watching us through glass and hiking in to poke through our sh#t?
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 23, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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Patrick, the term I like is "Polighten up," good advice for anyone who wants to actually have a dialogue online.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Apr 23, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
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now that's a horse of a differing shade.
re; Wildone
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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Apr 23, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
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I call it like I see it Wade. I even hiked in to the office in the valley once and asked who was doing it. Of course, no-one knew anything about it.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 23, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
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I insist that everyone that treks into the wilderness act...
I do not expect most of you to even begin to understand...
Does anyone else find the tone of these remarks offensive?
Commanding people to follow your orders and telling them they're too stupid to understand anything is an odd way to enlist their support.
I know that "I'm right and you're wrong, so shut up and do what I say" is the internet way, but still...
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Gene
Social climber
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Apr 23, 2010 - 03:36pm PT
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Ghost,
No problem here.
g
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Apr 23, 2010 - 03:36pm PT
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The Fet
Thanks for the factual clarification-no friggin way am I going to wade through this again.
Time to move on?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 23, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
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We have a problem here with trash talk. The Chief says:
I insist...
It is true that the wilderness law requires packing it out.
We failed to do that, and again I apologize.
We have paid our fines and offered direct apologies to Jesse and to the crew who actually carried down our trash.
We have long since owned our behavior on this very forum.
Again I offer humble apologies to my fellow wilderness lovers everywhere.
But, you sir have no right to insist anything of me.
This place is not -- not yet, anyway -- a totalitarian state run by landlocked ex-Navy.
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Gene
Social climber
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Apr 23, 2010 - 04:24pm PT
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I insist that everyone that treks into the wilderness act accordingly and responsibly each and every time. Regardless who you they may be.
The full quote is posted for context.
Thank God it's Friday. i hope all have a great weekend in the hills.
I hate family fights. Everyone have a good one and bring back the joys of the hills with you.
g
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 23, 2010 - 08:34pm PT
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Trash talk did me a favor. By bringing up the rap bolting issue again, it reminded me that I had written a response to all the debate about it in this thread, but never shared it here.
After digesting the best of our dialog during the six weeks this thread was hot and daily -- and thanks to, well...most of you (Coz and Bachar were especially worthy opponents), for colorful opinions pro and con -- I spent a month writing a second piece incorporating new thoughts brought up by it. It was published in the American Alpine Journal in 2008. I figured everybody would see it there, but no. So here it is.
By the way, I didn't make a dime on this; I did it because I care.
Growing Up
On the South Face of Half Dome
By Doug Robinson
Scaling an icon is tricky. You have to climb through legend to grasp the stone itself. It took me years to see beyond the in-your-face northwest wall of Yosemite’s greatest icon, Half Dome. Sean Jones, though, is so over it he calls the northwest face the dark side.
This is really Sean’s story, his stellar new route. But I got deeply involved, maybe over my head. I certainly don’t climb that hard. We had both noticed the potential, and been drawn to a new free climb. I set out to film Sean on it, and even before my film ran out of support I had come under the spell of this bright wall and couldn’t walk away. A lot of ink has been spilled over this already, if you count more words than War and Peace on the internet (www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=566859). The controversy hinged on our decision to rap in from the summit to find a climbable line on the upper wall, and then put in protection bolts from our rap line. Some climbers got very offended, since Yosemite has always had a staunchly ground-up tradition.
Here in the American Alpine Journal climbers usually write their own spray. Even though Sean led the climbing, I’ll lay down a few words. For one thing, it gives me a chance to brag about my friend, since Sean flies under the radar in this Valley. Yet he has a remarkable eye for a good line, and more first ascents here (91) than anyone, ever. And I’d like to explain why we bent the Valley’s traditional rules along our way up Half Dome’s south face.
Over on the dark side, the Regular Northwest Face route, even though streaked with black, still shines. In 1957 it became the first Grade VI in America. “Never had the slightest doubt we’d make it,” Jerry Gallwas said last summer to mark the fiftieth anniversary of that ascent. He and Mike Sherrick stood shoulder to shoulder with Royal Robbins at the Yosemite Lodge celebration. Jerry showed off part of their secret, a rack of hand made hard steel pins. Fun-loving guys and robust, they had all moved on to big lives beyond climbing.
How many of us have romped up the Northwest Face in their footsteps? Maybe ten thousand -- we’re the lucky ones. Along the way came all the big-wall firsts. In-a-day, 1966. Solo, same year. All free in ’76. And Dean Potter dropped our jaws by soloing with the rope coiled on his back in 2003 (hope I have the date right.). I got to join that parade in 1973, for the first hammerless ascent. At the time it was shocking to climb with just Stoppers and Hexes, but it’s boringly normal now (with cams); our first clean ascent slam-dunked a revolution. Environmental action has often been sparked by climbers. John Muir’s impetus to make Yosemite a park is an outstanding example. The movement to preserve the rock by climbing clean was interesting because it appealed to climbers not so much as a moral imperative but as an intriguing challenge. It was just plain fun.
Like most of us, it was my first Grade VI. Always more of a free climber than a wall guy, I felt most proud of leading the Robbins Chimney, flaring and runout and scary. Climbing itself is always more core than whatever gets done about protecting it. And free climbing already loomed as the future of our stony practice.
Come around into the light; the backside glows. A very different wall, the South Face is a mile wide, smooth and blank. A few dikes crawl down but don’t reach the ground. Two arches crack the mirror front and center, hook left and vanish into glass.
Warren Harding attacked the main arch in 1966, but the eventual FA took five tries over half a decade, a trial for the tenacity of even Harding and the sorcerer’s most eager apprentice, Galen Rowell. (Galen loved being “a former second of Warren Harding and Fred Beckey.”) Rowell’s beginner’s camera caught Harding struggling to escape the arch out a double-overhanging corner. He called it, “my most strenuous lead.” Faced with undulating blankness above, Harding came up with the innovation of bat-hooking, balancing on a hook in a shallow drilled hole. On one of their attempts the October surprise of a fierce snowstorm led to the first-ever big wall rescue, when Royal Robbins spun down out of the clouds with a hot thermos and a rope off the iced-up face.
In the end their climb left a trail of drilled holes to the summit. Was big-wall climbing growing up or losing its innocence? The drill has, for half a century and more, been the hinge of doubt in climbing. Certainly there would be more drilling, and more ropes from above.
The bright wall’s big promise was free climbing, as one generation’s blank face became a playground for the next. It was well into the 1980s before free climbing made serious inroads on the main south face. Still, it was way into the eighties before free climbing made serious inroads onto the main South Face. Autobahn (5.11+R, Charles Cole and John Middendorf, 1985) was the opening move. Like the half dozen climbs that soon followed, it was a bold statement on exceptional stone.
“Playground,” however, turned out to be way too optimistic. Every one of the new free routes was hard, sketchy, and serious – R-rated at least. And even now, they are rarely repeated.
Crowning the development, Karma, and the queen of the South Face lines Southern Belle, both crossed the final frontier of boldness to become X-rated. Karma (Jim Campbell, Dave Schultz, and Ken Yager, 1986) has not attracted a second attempt, and the trickle of interest in Southern Belle (established in 1986 by Dave Schultz and Walt Shipley, freed by Schultz and Scott Cosgrove in 1988) has only built its fearsome reputation.
By the time Sean stepped up to the South Face last year, a deathly calm had settled over the wall; free climbing on it had essentially stopped in 1994. Here was one of the biggest and most beautiful stretches of stone in all of the Valley, and it was wasting away ignored. Sure it was a long walk, and half hidden. But “out of sight, out of mind” was not the main reason for the quiet. Blame it on the runouts.
You could say that the story of free climbing on the backside of Half Dome hinged not on the boldness of its FAs, but on a July day in 1994. The day Hank Caylor took his sick fall. He dropped 70-80 feet off Southern Belle’s eighth pitch. Such a long fall might be OK on steeper rock. Chris Sharma, for instance, has taken many plummets that long on his limestone cave project out in the Mojave. But he falls into space. Even El Cap is steep enough for clean drops. But this face is only 75 degrees. That’s pretty stout for smearing, but hideously slabby to fall on. Somewhere on his descent Hank’s foot caught on the wall and stopped. When his leg kept going, something had to give. Other foot, other leg too. Imagine rapping out of there on your knees, dangling ankles that crackled. He touched the ground gingerly and started to crawl.
Had boldness on the south face crossed a line and become plain stupid? The guys who put up Karma say there is no way they would ever go back. Dave Schultz, forging the FA of Southern Belle with Walt Shipley, led that infamous runout 8th pitch. Returning to free it with Scott Cosgrove, he didn’t want that lead again. Cosgrove stepped up to his proudest lead, but says he’ll never go back. John Bachar and Peter Croft both turned around below there. The Belle waited 18 years for a second ascent by Leo Houlding and Dean Potter. Potter later told me he had been scared. Certainly no offense to any of them, then, if I find it kind of a waste of a big swath of lovely stone. Maybe there’s another way…
Boldness is something I’ve always admired and often pushed. Just the other day in Bishop I heard that someone had backing off my runout lead on a 1970 line, the Smokestack on the Wheeler Crest. Sean too, had put up a 5.11 slab with a scrape-off-all-your-skin, 100-foot runout -- on a slab across the San Joaquin from Balloon Dome. But then he thought better of it and went back to retro-drill a few more bolts onto it for the benefit of future climbers.
But we’re getting ahead of the story here, talking about the golden headwall. Go back to the ground, back to early spring, back to crunching over a ribbon of snow along the base of the wall. Back to Sean’s vision of an all-new, all-free line up the south face. Back to searching for a first step up onto the Dome. It wasn’t obvious where to start. First try, he got sixty feet up slabs and then shut down. Sean’s second try freed five beautiful pitches up Harding and Rowell’s classic aid line before hitting a pitch that was grainy and way harder -- if it could be freed at all.
Pause to glance at the guidebook. A route line on a photo turns out to be misplaced. Walk in under that main arch. It’s huge in there, and complex with three major crack systems. Southern Belle starts up the right one. The central cracks are the original South Face. The left system, in spite of being fingered by the misplaced ink, was unclimbed. What a gift. Sean headed up that line of stark and wonderful cracks, where the giant arch meets the main wall of the Dome.
The climbing is as clean as it gets. No munge, no grass, no grit. Just polished, flinty, square-cut corners that gradually leaned left, pressing harder on his right shoulder the higher he went. This was the business; the climbing seemed to run about 5.12 on every pitch. Finally, with the crack closing down to tips lieback, the corner leaning terminally outward at it’s arched top, and the slab dropping oddly away underfoot, it cruxed on the tenth pitch at 5.13a.
With the arch now a looming overhang and the crack pinched out, serendipity struck. A few feet down an easy ramp led to a dike. The dike was burly at 5.11+, but kept going for two pitches (and a spot of A0), clear out past the end of the arch. Three months into the South Face, Sean was finally poised on the brink of the upper wall. It was both a celebration and a problem.
Spending so long up there, Sean ran through many loyal partners. Robbie Borchard, Jake Jones and Ben Montoya all worked hard on the wall before being recalled to their lives below. I had my own problems. By the time summer rolled around my movie project had fizzled and tendonitis in an elbow reduced my wall time to drill-monkey status. Now we were squarely confronted, not only by the golden wall itself, its stone more scalloped into dishes than sporting discrete edges, but by the beyond-bold standard that had a stranglehold on the whole South Face.
Our next move has been debated hotly and endlessly. Partly because Half Dome is an icon; it’s history matters. Partly because we were up-front about it. Ropes have been dropping in from above on Valley walls for decades, especially on El Cap since the free-climbing gold rush began there in the 1990s. A handy tactic, after all, for spying on the free climbing potential and maybe slipping in some pro that would be useful later. Something you might find darn useful, sketching your way up from the ground on desperate moves. In many ways, Growing Up just became a lightning rod for a lot of half-hidden behavior that had actually been skulking around our beloved gulch for decades.
We poked at the campfire, squirmed in our beach chairs, popped another beer and dove back into our thorny predicament. First of all, we didn’t have a clue which way to head. Crack systems lead you boldly, but on hard slabs sometimes you can’t see the next move in front of your face. We had already been confronted by the potential of this wall for blanking out – right from Sean’s first foray off the ground. Seen it so often we were starting to call it “the fortress effect.” So we hesitated to simply forge out onto the upper slabs, which risked putting up a route that blanked out in a sea of porcelain, bolts to nowhere.
If you could even get in a bolt. As slab climbing goes, this wall is way steep and way slippery. It’s hard to find a stance to drill from, and even hook placements to aid the drilling (which were considered acceptable style ever since the Bachar-Yerian) were rare on this scalloped terrain lacking edges. All that was highlighted by the existing routes – and by how few routes actually existed. : R-rated every one, except the last two, the best and the boldest, which had crossed the line into X-rated.
We flatly rejecting putting up another near-death runout, like every other route on the wall to date. That’s a dead end. With no one willing to accept such a mortal gauntlet, climbing on the wall would continue to wither away to nothing. Sean Jones had a better idea, one that has opened up the beauty of the South Face to be climbed a little more often, as it deserves. But it would require a change in ethos, an evolution in style, which is a bitter pill in a Valley steeped in tradition. Including a thousand feet of it, freshly climbed beneath our heels.
Finally we sighed and loaded our packs with fixed rope, hiked to the top, dropped in to find the line, and then to drill the bolts. And what a sweet line we found! At times there were barely a scattering of holds weaving through the porcelain. Especially traversing right, above the lip of the arch, where sometimes a divot broken out of mirrored polish formed the tenuous line onward. That stretch came in at 5.11c. Even so, it demanded another 60 feet of A0. We were thankful that we explored because it saved us from bolting our original vision of where the route would go, one that fizzled out after two pitches. That would have left the pollution of a line of bolts to nowhere.
On a wall loaded with dikes, we found only one on this upper slab, but it’s such a beauty we started calling that pitch the ”Mini-Snake Dike.” It was surprisingly moderate at 5.10c. The climbing stayed consistently good, and consistently hard at 5.10 and 5.11, leading to a 5.11d move that turned out to be the crux of the upper slabs. There’s more noticeable texture up high, but it’s hard to grasp, and would have been daunting to try to drill from stances.
Sarah Watson became Sean’s final partner on the route. Sarah had only been climbing two years, but the former gymnast went hard-core desert rat and hung out for weeks at a time in Indian Creek, honing her jamming skills. Her first day on Half Dome, Sarah led hard 5.11 pitches down under the arch. Then a sprained ankle confined her to couch surfing while Sean and I hand drilled on the upper wall. But with the ankle fully taped, she joined Sean for the final send on July 28.
This Valley has a staunch trad history. I like that, have loudly upheld it, and contributed my share. But it’s also a tradition that has been breached many times over recent decades, first by sport climbs on short cliffs, and lately on nearly every newly freed line on El Cap. Done, but not much talked about. Somehow, by just plainly saying what we were up to, we became the whipping boys for shadowy behavior by most of the leading activists. Suddenly I went from the father of clean climbing to an evil rap bolter. I don’t mind drawing the heat, but a lot of folks see only black and white. Growing Up is not an ideological repudiation of ground-up style, not open season to grid-bolt the Valley. Rather, it came from listening to the stone itself, and taking a cue from the can’t-stance, can’t-even-hook nature of this particular piece of terrain.
Did I mention that it’s drop-dead gorgeous up there? Even hanging out in the ponderosa forest at the base. A mile east, hundreds of people a day went up to the cables. Half a mile west they were cueing up for the Snake Dike. Here, not one visitor in four months. Except for cougar eyes glinting in the firelight. Up on the wall is better, with a spreadeagle view of the high country. The rock is oh so clean. Squeaky clean. Slippery polished crystalline. A brilliant surface to be poised upon, and it had been locked away from the common enjoyment for too long.
I’m sorry to take up so much of this good community’s time and attention talking about ropes from above and how bolts get placed. It distracts our attention from the climb itself, which in the end is what really matters. This whole dispute over how bolts are placed is badly skewed, as if the experience of the FA party matters more than how it feels for the thousands who come along after. But Sean and I would rather focus on them. Take the proud and wonderful Snake Dike around the corner. No counting how many have romped up its unlikely dike, generously littered with holds and cutting upward through seriously harder rock. Come to think of it, it’s the only popularly accessible climbing on the whole monolith of Half Dome. Surely hundreds of thousands have climbed it by now. My life is richer for it, and I spew about how cool the moves are to hundreds more. Does it really matter much any more how it was for those guys who put it up back in the Iron Age? Growing Up opens up a similar experience to a lot of climbers. Sure, it’s way harder, but times change. Evolution happens.
I get increasingly anti-elitist about climbing. It is such profound experience – changing my life over and over -- that more climbers climbing more will help tilt our troubled planet in a better direction. In that context, a bit of crowding is hardly worth whining about. We’re not going to have a planet to quibble about saving unless a few more people start having the experiences that motivate us to love this fragile skim of life clinging to our stony sphere, and to help preserve it. Maybe this is a way for climbing to actually become less of a selfish, elitist pastime. Not that selfish is bad. It’s actually essential. The pursuit of such intense personal experience is at the heart of our solitary transformations. And only by such growing up as individuals can we come together into more of a real environmental force.
Growing Up. The line speaks for itself. Go climb it. And then, if you feel slighted, tell us it’s not worth it. Out of 91 FAs in the Valley, more than anyone ever, Sean calls Growing Up the finest climb he’s ever established. I think even among the modern standards being forged on El Cap, that this is Yosemite’s climb of the year. It’s your turn. Climb it if you can, or even rap in from above to sample some of the final slabs. The climbing up there is not like anything else in the Valley or in Tuolumne. It’s hard, beautiful stone, And it’s accessible; runout beyond sport climbing, but definitely not a death route.
In the end, bucking tradition seemed worth it to us. But the resulting line is what matters. The route belongs to you now. You decide. As Dylan Thomas said, “The function of posterity is to look after itself.” The matter is out of our hands.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Apr 23, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Apr 23, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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Doug- Will never forget skeezin up rock creek with you and others under a full moon. Truly one of my best memories.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 23, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
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The common good?
What is the/your definition of this so called common good?
What does this "common good" stand for?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 23, 2010 - 11:15pm PT
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DR -- "Here was one of the biggest and most beautiful stretches of stone in all of the Valley, and it was wasting away ignored."
"and it was wasting away"?
That is a human mistake thinking like that.
The rock does not "wasting away" ever.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 23, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
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or even rap in from above to sample some of the final slabs. Sure, why not? It's definitely fair now. You can go top-rope the last pitch until you get it, and just slowly work your way down, over a period of months.
I really want to know Doug, what you would think, now that Pandora's Box is open, if over the next 15-20 years, a lot of similar work was done up there, but not with as much care to the final product. Botch jobs, dead ends, poor route selection, unfinished projects, trash camps at the base, you know, just visualize the possibilities.
Did you really usher in a greater era?
You wouldn't be able to call foul in any way would you?
"Yeah, we rap bolted......but we did it right!"
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 23, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
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It was not wasting away in any sense of the word.
Werner's right.
It just stood there in it's beautiful glory as it had for many millenia.
It doesn't need climbers to make it complete.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Apr 24, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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Well I think Werner and Survival just summed it all up. 2400 posts simplified to a concept.
What's really amazing to me is that LEB did not post a single interruption, unless I missed it under an alias.
Arne
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 24, 2010 - 12:37am PT
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I'm not so sure I thought through the consequences of bumping this thread...
It is easy to take what happened regarding the clean-up out of context; let me attempt to provide some, quoting from the Meyer's "Yellow Guide", Yosemite Climbs:
"From the standpoint of fighting litter, it is IMPERATIVE to carry down what is carried up. Old slings, wads of tape, and assorted wall trash found at the base of obscure and remote cliffs discredit the notion that climbers are respectful of the natural environment. Few issues threaten the climbers' freedom as seriously as littering." page 3.
This was written in 1982, which to remind you was roughly 28 years ago... describing a situation that was not new at the time.
Growing Up is not the only route which entailed illegal bivies (I'm assuming they were), and cached (interpreted as abandoned) gear for lengths of time, ultimately having to be cleaned up by the NPS. It is one of a long line of routes that were created so...
...regrettable, in this case, that the planned cleanup by agents of the FA didn't not happen.
I find the reaction to this incident to be somewhat over the top, however, given the history of Yosemite Valley. In that sweep of time since Meyers, the climbing community has managed not to provoke the NPS by the "littering issue" so severely that they have revoked our privileges. We should continue to clean up after ourselves, and try to not be overwhelmed by the logistics of completing the climb, which in this case (and others) includes recovering the detritus of our adventures.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 24, 2010 - 12:58am PT
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I get increasingly anti-elitist about climbing. It is such profound experience – changing my life over and over -- that more climbers climbing more will help tilt our troubled planet in a better direction. In that context, a bit of crowding is hardly worth whining about. We’re not going to have a planet to quibble about saving unless a few more people start having the experiences that motivate us to love this fragile skim of life clinging to our stony sphere, and to help preserve it. Maybe this is a way for climbing to actually become less of a selfish, elitist pastime. Not that selfish is bad. It’s actually essential. The pursuit of such intense personal experience is at the heart of our solitary transformations. And only by such growing up as individuals can we come together into more of a real environmental force.
So, it's actually an environmental step forward?
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 24, 2010 - 02:14am PT
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Ed, I think the histrionics over the garbage clean up are really just sublimated opinions about the rap bolting. If the authorities and the perps are fine with the resolution, everything else is just posture. Really, I think it's just a bunch of gray men complaining that their talisman isn't as pure as the pedestal they put him on.
Completely off topic, I never got a chance to tell you how much I enjoyed your slander show at the Woodson Shindig. As my good friend John Wason once said, "Be there or be slandered."
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 24, 2010 - 04:46am PT
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ummm-
just double checkin:
anyone else ever climb this rig yet?
thanks in advance.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Apr 24, 2010 - 06:04am PT
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Apologies Off White, I did not mean to offend your senses. I just find this issue sort of 'funny', so to speak. As somebody mentioned earlier about throwing stones and glass houses, that is so true. I hardly know Doug but I always found him a decent chap.
Which one of us climbers can say that we are the 'perfect' thing when it comes to the outdoors. I am not going to judge these people for the route they put up, if it could have been done in better ‘style’, whatever that is, so be it. But some of the posters on this thread are so judgmental. Personally I think some of them are just mental for being obsessed with the route.
Is there a lesson to be learned? I do not know Off White. Do you have an answer?
If not then perhaps STFU might be appropriate. Goodbye mate. Ooops, I'm not your mate. Whew!
My advice (for what it is worth, probably not much)? Chill dude.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 24, 2010 - 07:17am PT
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Hi Off White-
How is that John Wason doing? I haven't heard news for a while.
cheers
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pa
climber
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Apr 24, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
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" We poked at the campfire, squirmed in our beach chairs, popped another beer and dove back into our horny predicament".
Well, at least they squirmed a bit...
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 24, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
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Yeah, actually we agonized over the decision for weeks. Lots of evenings at the campfire and down in El Portal, even hours of talking hiking back and forth.
It wasn't an easy decision.
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pa
climber
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Apr 24, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
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" It wasn't an easy decision".
Why not, exactly?
And, who/what was "squirming"?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 24, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
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I'm gonna give some much deserved props to the GU crew for cleaning up a bunch of trash that was left over the years by previous groups of South Face climbers. Seems this is being overlooked.
And thanks for providing the details of how the mess got left behind, and what your intentions were for making it right when it became apparent your clean-up plans didn't pan out as intended. And yeah, you took full responsibility (here and with the NPS) and didn't whine about how it wasn't your fault.
Polighten up, that is classic.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 24, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
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Two or maybe three years since the FA...no repeat..no heavy traffic/no traffic at all and some trash that they clean up in maybe no so of a timely matter...WTF is the big deal??
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 24, 2010 - 07:00pm PT
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Hey there Patrick, I wasn't making some pointed remark at you, more making a play on words and trotting a phrase I've used with my kids. I guess I needed to stick a smiley face in there, darned internet communication.
Deucey, John's doing great in Flagstaff, I just talked to him yesterday. We're planning an old fart's assault on the Valley the end of May, climbing whatever we can scrabble up.
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gumbyclimber
climber
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Apr 24, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
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I like how this thread reminded me that we're not that many generations down the road from burning witches at the stake.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 24, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
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That was funny.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 01:12am PT
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Bob D'A, let's keep this clear. There has not been a first ascent yet. This amazing route has only been done in two completely separate segments and understandably. What a huge climb it is. So a First Ascent is awaited.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Apr 25, 2010 - 01:23am PT
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Chop it or STFU. Love you guys.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 25, 2010 - 08:53am PT
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peter wrote: So a First Ascent is awaited.
I think you mean a first continuous ascent. Sean and Doug put all the bolts in, did all the work and I believe Sean climbed all the pitches free.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 25, 2010 - 09:46am PT
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Bruce Kay wrote:
Apr 24, 2010 - 10:26am PT
i ask again, can different values coexist on the same crag?
Half Dome is not a "crag" any more than Cerro Torre is a crag! A crag is a relatively "insignificant" cliff NOT in a wilderness alpine setting, something developed with convenience in mind, something you can even walk around to the top of sometimes to set up topropes if so inclined. These guys had to use the NPS cables when they did that on GU, not to mention flaunt a lot of wilderness regulations in the process of development.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 25, 2010 - 09:59am PT
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Bruce...yes they can and do in a number of climbing areas in the US and around the world, including Yosemite.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:00am PT
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Yes, in terms of crags absolutely different values can exist. In tems of alpine formations like Half Dome, I think most of us would prefer not. Save the rap bolting for the "crags" as we call them down here!
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:27am PT
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Because wilderness is one of the last places where there can still be any true adventure or sense of the unknown preserved. Maybe there would have been a ground-up stance and hook drilling renaissance in twenty years, who knows? It isn't unreasonable that some very strong and bold young climbers (Honnold-Houlding types come to mind) could have climbed this route ground-up. But now one of the plumb lines has fallen to the demands of convenience and ease... in a sense stolen from future climbers and replaced with ego and magazine-friendly braggadocio because a few people were impatient to make a route go all the way to the top.
It would be nice to leave a little bit of the traditional mystery, excitement and risk of climbing on at least a few pieces of stone in the world. And alpine granite formations like Half Dome, with no real sub-5th-class "natural route" to the summit (except of course, the NPS cables), are obvious candidates for the traditional ground-up ethic. Call it community consensus, or whatever you want. But for some very tangible reasons this route rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Is it fair to ignore all of these people's feelings just because a couple of guys felt like they needed to force a sport route with up to 18 bolts per pitch to the top of what is for many a very sacred formation? Is this "community"? I'm not advocating removal of the route by any stretch, I am just saying it shouldn't have been celebrated in quite such a self-congratulatory fashion in the various media.
I count Sean as a friend and he has put up hundreds of amazing routes in Yosemite, many of which are among my favorites anywhere. I know he and Doug had mixed feelings about this route, and I'm sure they can appreciate that the climbing community does too. I have no doubt that Growing Up, like all of Sean's routes, is a really "fun" line with many classic pitches (especially the first 8), but there is a sort of philosophical flaw to it, a whiff of hubris, and it rings false from an artistic standpoint--because new-routing is an art after all, not a science. In the end this route should stand as a warning for future route developers of what not to do, and god forbid not a model for emulation in future new routes on alpine granite in wilderness areas.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:37am PT
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I found a topo of the route so long ago I don't remember where I got it. Anyways, it shows two sections of A0. One is a pendulum and the other is a bolt ladder. As a result, I don't think that Bob D's claim is accurate that Sean has freed the whole line. Who else would have written the topo?
Josh
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:57am PT
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Just to clarify a minor point dustonian. We free soloed the slabs about twenty feet left of the cables and didn't touch them. Even Doug. I had a 200 meter rope in my backpack. It was not easy.
People were absolutely freaking out.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:59am PT
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Wow, burly!! Because it was crowded or because it was more fun that way?
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:04am PT
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Maybe just to make it fun. Sean had never been on the summit before, as he was always saving it for a major new route. So it was an effort to make it more worthwhile.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:06am PT
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That is a fascinating twist to the tale! It was as if he wanted to go ground-up, but knew his time was running out in the Valley. I know the feeling and succumbed to the same pressure on a beautiful couple of short routes I developed last year. If I ever have time someday I'm tempted to go take the bolts out or at least aid up the route for the hell of it--or like you said, because maybe it's more fun that way. Bottom line is, it's tough to have a real life and climb everything ground-up. It's painstakingly slow, sketchy, and can sometimes be frustrating as all hell. But in the end you're usually glad you did it that way.
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:09am PT
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If you sh#t on a sacred spot, does it really matter how you did it?
If you sh#t in the temple one time or ten times, you still sh#t in the temple.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:17am PT
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That's right Josh. Seanster has not climbed---no one has climbed---the line entirely free. Nor has the route been climbed as a whole.
Chickenskinner posted (on Sean's behalf) the topo upthread. That post is about 1/4 of the way up from this post. And yes there is A0 on it---on pitch #13 and #15.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:28am PT
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Because wilderness is one of the last places where there can still be any true adventure or sense of the unknown preserved.
Well, as long as we have women, I don't think we have to worry about losing any sense of the unknown. [ducking shoe ...]
But seriously, excellent post dustonian. That really sums up the conundrum, without over-the-top glove throwing.
I don't see GU as opening a Pandora's Box, giving a green light to anybody who wants to rap bolt in an alpine setting. Heck, the hike alone is keeping able folks from checking this route out, and they don't have to do any heavy lifting. Folks who FA routes of this magnitude aren't just fresh gym graduates or folks without a vision of what they are doing.
Certainly, the route has an asterisk next to it. Only time will tell if the asterisk shines, or if it is made of soot.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:54am PT
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Scott wrote: BDA, In all respect, what have you ever climbed in the Valley? Have you ever done a FA ground up of a bigwall. Sorry in advance if you have, but I think you really need,"to walk the walk, before you talk the talk."
I have led ground up 5.12's drilling on lead on walls about 700-800 feet. I have climbed in the Valley and in the Meadows and have done a number of ground up shorter routes to 12+ in Colorado, New Mexico, AZ and other areas.
Like other I have a right to my opinions. I never thought climbing was worth dying over (I have great kids and wonderful wife) and I don't continue to live in the 70's when it comes to how climbers should climb or act.
Maybe your life is some what incomplete as to dictate how others should climb and live...mine isn't...in all due respect.
As to "walk the walk"...I raised a wonderful family, been married for 35 years, consider myself a great father and husband and loyal to my friends. Providing for my family was way more important than climbing vacations or placing some self indulgent sport above them. I somehow still managed to climb 1600 new routes, repeat a bunch of hard and run-out routes, write some guidebooks and donate my time to working on trails, clean-up's and hardware replacement.
So in real life I have walk the walk...what about you?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 25, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
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Coz wrote: Their are some that train their whole life to do routes like GU in good style, to them it´s a problem.
Maybe they should have got their first.
Coz wrote: Sean and Doug decided how it should be climbed not me.
That's obvious and they have taken more than their fair share of PERSONAL attacks for it.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
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Heck, the hike alone is keeping able folks from checking this route out
That's a sad statement. I have a hard time imagining being able to climb it but not able to walk to it.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Apr 25, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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Ooo ooo ooo!!!!
When's it gonna hit 5000?????
Need more popcorn & beer!!!
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
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Coz, you are beating a dead horse. Hike up, go do the route in style, and let everyone know what you think. Thats what its time for. You do that, everyone will respect your opinion and the whole thing can be put to rest, one way or another.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 25, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
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Agree to disagree.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 25, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
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To Coz (and others who advocate that the route should be chopped):
We have heard how the FA team deliberated much on the impacts of going top down on their route. We've heard their pros and cons, and how they came about their decision. They didn't take the decision lightly, but they did make the decision.
And then we've heard the nay-sayers: Chop it!
Chopping someone's route is a serious action. A just person carefully deliberates such a decision, instead of following a knee-jerk reaction.
I know you don't owe it to me (us), but I'd like to hear the thought process that says that chopping the route is better than leaving it as-is.
Certainly, chopping the rap-bolted section would signal a dislike for the style, and it might stand as a deterrent for others thinking of the same type of action. However, have you thought through what you'd be leaving behind? I've put some thought on it, and because of that I'd like to hear why you think that chopping it is better than leaving the route alone.
If you can't stack up the pros and cons, then advocating that the route should be chopped is akin to a stubborn kid saying "my way or the high way." And that attitude rarely provides for good leadership.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 25, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
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Honnold, Hayden and Cosgrove ......
:-)
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pa
climber
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Apr 25, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
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Mmmm...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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the argument doesn't end here, it never ends... it's not a debate but a statement of positions, both well articulated if you boiling them down to the essentials.
On the one hand, the "adventure" of the ground up style of establishing routes; on the other hand the "designing" of a route, careful consideration of all aspects, which includes previewing, rehearsing and top down bolting (when necessary).
They are different aspects of putting up routes.
We argue over where different styles can be applied, obviously people who have been active in developing an area have a lot to say about it... and people putting up new routes do think about the style of the climbs in that area when creating new routes. It's great to hear these debates, the discussions are important for the future of climbing.
But there is no resolution of the debate because the nature of climbing is to take risks and own the consequences...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 25, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
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No one has the right to chop a rout unless they first climb it. The only other valid excuse is if a rout squeeze jobs on a previous route that you have climbed. If a new rout is so close to an existing rout that you can clip the bolts from the older climb then yes you could reasonably chop the ofending new rout without actually climbing it. In most other cases if you have not climbed it you are not justified in any way shape or form to chop the thing.
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gumbyclimber
climber
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Apr 25, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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I never thought I would say something like this, but can somebody PLEASE send LEB in here to ruin this thread? Please, help us all.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 25, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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"We are the ones that OWN the Park."
Wow, what sauce have you been drinking?
I own my home. And you know what's nice about that? I don't have to pay to go inside and I can stay for as long as I like. I can walk around with a beer in my hand, and I can play my stereo at 2am.
Try to tell the folks at the gate that you're not going to pay because you own the place. Then try to tell the nice rangers at C4 that you didn't bother to check in, you know, because you OWN the place. What a joke...
Chief, wouldn't it be more appropriate to take your anger about the taxes you pay to the folks that are really squandering large sums of taxpayer dollars? I mean, come on--you're barking at folks that had good intentions to clean up their mess, but their plans went bad, so some guys with federal jobs got paid a few hundred bucks.
Compare that to folks who knowingly steal million$ from the federal gov't, and don't say Thank You Taxpayers. Those are the folks to whom you should aim your anger, not some climbers who have themselves done a bunch of community service.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 25, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
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maybe you should stop barking and offer to help out the climbing community when these sorts of projects need help.
many people on this thread offered to help carry out left overs from the project, which was more extensive then a couple of guys jaunting out to do a long route.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:28pm PT
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Come on Chief
Spitting in peoples faces (virtually) while demanding they apologize to you is no way to get a dialog or an apology. It's obvious you wouldn't accept it anyway but just use the admission to further beat the guy down. You're just indulging your righteous anger.
Plus, I've seem more "Mia Culpa" on this thread than about any thread in supertopo ever. DR has taken heat for plenty he really either didn't do or didn't have control over even.
Enough is enough, it's years later.
Peace
karl
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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^^^ Damn straight Chief. Not to mention the route would have been there for all of a few days.
This just seems very irresponsible on behalf of all parties involved.
I wonder where all of those peeps talkin smack on those Watkins litter bugs are. All I remember is "It's a travesty, all of those rotting ropes, gear etc..."
Wonder who picked up that shitshow?
No excuse for leaving mass amounts of trash in the backcountry. Pawning the cleanup off to others, paid or not is bad style.
A low down dirty shame it is.
Mucci
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hossjulia
Social climber
Eastside
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Apr 25, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
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have any of you bitching about this route climbed it?
Thought not. STFU
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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Apr 25, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
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Neither have Sean nor Doug or anyone else on this "Project" climbed the route, start to finish in one shot. That is what really gets me about this whole deal.
Well if this was in Squamish the first ascent would still be up for grabs.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:06am PT
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Doug for the record your apology to all wilderness lovers (that the chief posted above but edited out, gee why) is enough for me I don't need another one as a taxpayer lol.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:12am PT
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We're on the brink of getting rid of T*R* and you guys are arguing about this? Someone should be offering to pack her sh#t. I'll chip in for gas.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:44am PT
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Chief - I happen to agree with at least your general points...but holy crap you can be a blowhard!
I might have a problem with the route...but I'd rather share a campfire with your "enemies" in this one sided "debate" of yours. Maybe even crack a beer with them while we hashed out opinions on style and back-country ethics. Civilly.
I've heard you're a good guy in person...but your internet persona ain't winning anyone over to your cause. Not in my opinion anyway. If you actually want to win this "battle" of yours...that might be worth considering.
DR manned up and apologized for the trash. Man up and realize you've passed the stage of getting your point across and have crossed into chest-beating, self-righteous spray.
But then...you've heard all this before. Never seems to make an impression...
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:51am PT
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Man, this climbing seems like serious stuff!!!!
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Apr 26, 2010 - 01:00am PT
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Thank you, Karl.
Dogtown.
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Apr 26, 2010 - 01:37am PT
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Look Man ,
If you don’t dig the style that Sean and Doug did it in, then do it better. And it will be your route.
AND THAT GOES FOR ALL YOU MOTHER F*#KERS!
Piss off!!!
Dogtown.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 26, 2010 - 01:41am PT
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Cheif wrote
Neither have Sean nor Doug or anyone else on this "Project" climbed the route, start to finish in one shot.
That is what really gets me about this whole deal.
My understanding is that the sacred "Southern Belle" route wasn't climbed in a shot by the FA either. They climbed fixed ropes to their high point and blasted. When was the real first ascent of "Southern Belle" and you want it in the books like that?
It's unfortunate when we invent standards to validate things and don't even apply them evenly
Peace
Karl
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Apr 26, 2010 - 01:51am PT
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Sorry, If I was just being me Karl.But, someone should go climb it. Has anyone?
DT.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Apr 26, 2010 - 03:14am PT
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Hmmmm, some really testy people on this thread. Amazing, though if I really cared I'd be interested in how some of these people were really like in real life. Maybe some of them are Catholic priests. "Forgive me Father, for I have sinned..."
Off White, I do hear where you are coming from, if I myself was a bit testy, I sincerely apologize. And yes, 'Polighten up' is a good phrase. Cheers dude.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 26, 2010 - 03:21am PT
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Hi Chief
Sounds like you are willing to give the Walt and Dave the FA credit even though they didn't do a continuous ascent but you won't give it to Sean.
you wrote
If I am not mistaken, at least Coz and Shultz returned and blasted the route from bottom to top on one continuous push to achieve the FFA, AFTER Walt and Shultz did the FA the year prior. Big difference when it comes to the progression of a route from FA to FFA.
You are mistaken. Coz and Shultz used fixed lines on the FFA and never did a continuous ascent from the bottom. By the standards of bottom to top continuous climbing you apply to Sean, they didn't get it either. Wanna change your standard to give the old skool a break?
I think we figured out that even Southern Belle has not had even ONE continuous ascent ever. At least Coz said he heard Dean and Leo used fixed ropes too.
The "continuous" thing was discussed during the thread. I know it's a long one
peace
Karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 26, 2010 - 10:15am PT
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Chief, if you believe that the LNT ethic is lost on this group of climbers, then it seems to me that you've missed out on a lot of what happened.
There are many cases where climbers, for whatever reason, cannot pack out what they brought in when they first leave a base camp. It is a huge problem on mountain routes. We should honor the teams that make arrangements for their trash to be cleaned up, either by doing it themselves or entrusting it to friends.
In life, when things go as planned, consider it good fortune. Here, things didn't go as planned, and the team did everything within their power to make it right.
So, chill out, Pops. You're starting to sound like your mother didn't ween you long enough.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 26, 2010 - 10:56am PT
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So, if a party comes along and frees GU in one continuous push, do THEY get published credit for the FFA?
...jus' wonderin'
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 26, 2010 - 10:56am PT
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Coz, jugging is aid, right? Certainly it's not free climbing.
I don't think anybody is saying you didn't free the route. Just not in one continuous ascent. That's what is being debated--a continuous ascent, as in one push. Jugging to a high point leaves the door open for someone to do the route in better style.
I know of several routes that await the first continuous free ascent. I'm sure several free routes on El Cap fall into this category. Falling, pulling the rope, and freeing a pitch also puts an asterisk on an ascent. We all know, in free climbing, the trick is to not weight anything but the rock.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 26, 2010 - 11:05am PT
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chief, no. but apparently still good enough these days for a magazine article....
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 26, 2010 - 11:19am PT
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It ain't semantics, bro. You weight anything but the rock, and it's not free. Period.
We all know, there are many shades of "free." Onsight. Flash. Onsight flash.
Myself, I prefer the brown-point.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 26, 2010 - 11:20am PT
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I credited Coz and Schultz big time, in print, for their FFA of Southern Belle. Also Dean and Leo for making the second free all those years later. Still the two most bad ass ascents of the south face of Half Dome, ever.
Compared to doing every move of that climb, a fixed line to a bivy on the ground is relatively trivial.
Growing Up has not had a free ascent because it is not all free. There is the short A0 on the traverse under the arch, and another 60' of A0 leading to the upper slab. Sean clearly marked them on his topo.
Sean did all the rest of the moves on GU free. Compared to that, having freed it in two pushes, lower and upper, also seems relatively trivial.
Sean and I will be the first to congratulate the first party to send it in one push. Just like we'll fully honor the first climbers who do SB without a fixed rope.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 26, 2010 - 11:42am PT
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Hey DR, didn't you guys place the A0/bolt ladder sections on rappel? That is just too freakin weird man!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 11:45am PT
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Scott wrote: For the record, I´d rather have a beer with the Navy man any day of the week, then with a terrorist lover, and a big wall rap bolter. The man speaks the truth.
Are you really serious? Sean is a great guy as is Doug, Sean has a family and seems to be a great human being with his head screw on right. Doug has made many contributions to the climbing world and both are not criminals by any stretch of the imagination.
So you changed the rules when you "free" climbed SB? I started climbing in 1971 and learned very quickly if you weighted the rope or hung on gear...it was aid...plain and simple.
Funny that those who ride the high horse have a longer way to the ground.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 26, 2010 - 11:53am PT
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Saying that they “aid climbed to their high point” does have a different ring to it than saying they jugged their fixed lines to the high point established free climbing the day before.
Would a bivy instead of sleeping on the dirt have gained them style points?
Southern Belle went free, bottom to top.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Springdale UT
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Apr 26, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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People who are watching are probably less impressed with the fact that there is so much energy being put into ripping on two decent guys who established one route outside the bounds of ultimate ethical rigidity, when it isnt attracting traffic, or creating higher impact.
If this route had caused accidents, major environmental impact or a real eyesore, then the bitching would be warranted. The only injury here seems to be one of pride and the desire of a few to impose their standards on the many.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
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Whoever said that place would get climbed out in one season just because these guys did a bit of rap bolting is so full of sh#t its absured. has GU even been repeted once? You guys sound like a bunch of paranoide scizzos...
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
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I feel the SFHD, could be climbed out in one season if people decide rap bolting is cool. I believe this face is clearly a limited area and needs to be protected and secured.
This is another case where 2500 posts are summed up in one line. This is really the crux.
If this route gets to stay then I get to come down and rap my own line on the face. Who's to tell me Sean's route can stay but mine can't?
Arne
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
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I feel the SFHD, could be climbed out in one season if people decide rap bolting is cool. I believe this face is clearly a limited area and needs to be protected and secured .
As long as you have to hand drill in flint hard granite, this will not be the case. Long hike, much work, pound, pound.
Peace
Karl
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
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This just get funnier...Peter Haan wrote: Bob D'A, let's keep this clear. There has not been a first ascent yet. This amazing route has only been done in two completely separate segments and understandably. What a huge climb it is. So a First Ascent is awaited.
Peter wrote: That's right Josh. Seanster has not climbed---no one has climbed---the line entirely free. Nor has the route been climbed as a whole.
So every big wall (20 in the Black, 15 on the Diamond and others in RMNP) I ever done I did from the ground up with no fixed ropes or aid and I get lectured by Scott on how I should train/climb and get told that I don't "walk the walk". Funny shit!
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
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No, but since I can't really free climb much over 5.10 this appeals to me. I'm in fantastic shape and I'm stoked for a project. In fact I relish the hard work, since I can't really climb it anyway.
Arne
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
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If you are going to elliminate GU for infractions of style and ethics then by extension there will be an awful lot of other routes around the country to eliminate as well include some classic Bridwell routes.
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Llewelyn Moss
Big Wall climber
Ken Kesey's place at La Honda
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
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maybe there are none of us left, the last of a dying breed
Coz, my suggestion: prunes... electric scooters... Depends... books printed in extra large print... then a good deal on a shaded plot and modest granite headstone overlooking the Sierra foothills. Dead! Its all over, buddy. Beautiful sunset
Everyone: there is proud GU sending going on by people who don't give a sh!t about the "old school" and "the dying breed"...
ti-i-i-ime is on my side, yes it is!
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
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Can we confirm, with rigorous honesty and put on the record, that every bolt on GU was in fact "Hand Drilled" and that absolutely no power drill was ever applied to this route?
Reminds me of some Fox News BS...
Can we see Obama's birth certificate too?
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
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ding ding ding ding
TKingsbury wins "post of the thread" award
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
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"Everyone: there is proud GU sending going on by people who don't give a sh!t about the "old school" and "the dying breed"..."
Whoa llewellen way to lay a big steaming coil of harshness.
Last time I checked Coz was still alive and still kickin' it. Same with Bob D, Donnini and a large number of other geezers. And, though I have been told to donate my body to medical science so someone could get some use out of it, I am also still kickin'. Where will you and the "stud patrol" be after more than four decades of ascending?
"ti-i-i-ime is on my side, yes it is!"
No it isn't. The only time you have is this fleeting moment.
In time you may be the next of the "old school dying breed".
And you will come to respect the proud heritage you benefit from.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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Wait...my birth certificate reads District of Columbia.
Does that make me not a citizen of the United STATES?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Apr 26, 2010 - 12:57pm PT
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Yes Doug, that would be the case. But no one will believe you without seeing the birth certificate. How do we know you were not born in Toledo. You could be a secret Mud Shark.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 26, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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Come to think of it, I haven't even seen my birth certificate.
For all I know my American citizenship is nothing but an elaborate family conspiracy.
Maybe I was really born in Pakistan, then snuck into the country kind of like the way those oil Sheiks were supposedly whisked out of it in the no-fly days right after 9-11?
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Apr 26, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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You do have a beard.
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Llewelyn Moss
Big Wall climber
Ken Kesey's place at La Honda
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Apr 26, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
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"The dying breed" (not my words) had its time. It planted the seeds for "Growing Up"... and shuns its warped progeny.
In an old nebulous mind, events and histories float, mix, and vanish altogether. The bitterness of "the dying breed" bubbles to the surface. Where does it come from? How unfortunate the "old school" doesn't have the time to change paths!
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Apr 26, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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LMoss wrote: The bitterness of "the dying breed" bubbles to the surface. Where does it come from? How unfortunate the "old school" doesn't have the time to change paths!
That is a pretty generalized statement and pretty far from the what is true.
I was at the Gunks reunion last year and someone asked Jim McCarty what he thought of the "new breed"...nothing but compliments came out of his mouth...he is not the only "old school" climber that feels that way.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
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Scott...I don't make rules and f*#k off with condescending backhand remarks following with I'll have a beer with you.
I don't need your approval on any type of climbing I do and we can debate who has actually done more for the climbing community.
Redpoint is not a traditional term...plain and simple. It implies previewing, falling, hanging and aiding before a clean ascent (not weighting the rope).
So are there different "rules" for big walls then shorter routes when talking about traditional climbing and who made them??
Scott wrote: You my friend are not a Valley big-wall climber.
Your arrogance is beyond belief.
I free climbed a number of big walls...ground up, no fixed ropes, no jugging.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 26, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
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How about some guys rap down from top of Mt Everest and put up a sport route, LOL.
Hahaha, wouldn't that start up a huge strange sh'it storm? :-)
Anyways ... the new talent I see now is unfuking believably good now.
It's all theirs now, and they are going to do it their way ......
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
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Scott wrote: What are you talking about. You´re claiming I did not free SB, because we freed to the high point, jugged lines and freed to the top.
No I didn't, you seem to have a reading problem. Peter Haan wrote that, not me. I could care less how
Do different rules apply for big walls when traditional climbing. It's a pretty simple question.
Can I rap from just below the crux of Cringe and then jug back up and climb the crux and call it a free ascent??
Also...feel free to tell me to f*#k off...I'm a big boy.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 26, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
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Chief,
The topo is on this thread, posted years back, discussed, revised, carefully redrawn by our archivist Clint. Then he sketched it onto a color photo alongside the lines of SB, the original South Face, and -- especially interesting to me -- Klaus' route out left. Then discussed some more, and revised again for accuracy.
It's a chore wading thru there -- careful not to get singed -- but you'll find it.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 26, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
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No, I'd have to dig for it too.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Apr 26, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
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Read the thread The Chief...
edit: you have? Weird...why did I have to post the topos again?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 02:45pm PT
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Chief wrote: So, what is roughly the time frame that these 100 or so rap-bolted bolts were hand drilled in?
If you want to be the hanging judge maybe do the footwork yourself.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 26, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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Geez chief, give it a rest already. They've posted topos and answered your leg humper questions.
You keep going on about how they profit from this... aren't you a guide? Aren't you out using public resources to profit? How much does it cost the taxpayers to haul a body out?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 26, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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Geez chief, give it a rest already.
I second that.
But would add a request that you use the name "The Chief" when referring to the guy who is ranting on this thread, not just "Chief." There is another poster who goes by the name Chief (without the "The") and he is a decent man who can express disagreement without coming across as an obnoxious tyrant.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
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Chief wrote: The avg hand drilled 2 3/4 X 3/8th 5pc req hole in the typical Sierra Pink and Gold Granite takes an avg of 30-40 minutes per hole.
So what is your point?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
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The Chief wrote: I don't get to choose the clients I am given. I gladly work with people that I am assigned by the Service that employs me.
Profit, as a Guide?
You still didn't anwser his question...do you use public lands to make money or is all your guiding for free?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 26, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
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Check the list of strong guys who worked on GU. Often several of us at once. Sure glad I didn't have to drill all that by myself.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Apr 26, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 26, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
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I won't speak for the Mini-Snake Dike pitch, Coz, even though it's the one pitch on the upper wall I would like most to lead myself. It's one of the few I probably could. I just rapped on by and worked on drilling lower pitches. It was a team effort.
I will say again that I saw acres of real estate where it would be impossible to stance drill and impossible to find a hook placement.
I'm sure you would agree from your experience over on SB.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 26, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
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how much did the body removal cost the taxpayers, The Chief? Did the removal utilize any mechanization in the backcountry?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 26, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
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Your high horse bullshit is uh, bullsh#t.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 26, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
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when hanging on a rap line i can usually hand drill a 2.25" x3/8th" hole in granit @ 20 min. usualy takes me 30 to 40+ min from a stance or sketchy hook.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 26, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
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BTW the Chief, Professional guideing is a much greater burden on public lands than any back country rout that rarely gets climbed.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 26, 2010 - 05:01pm PT
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Aside from the Chief's OCD, I still find the bolt ladder installed on rappel to be the strangest thing about this whole melodrama. A first in Yosemite? Anywhere for that matter??
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Nate Ricklin
climber
San Diego
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Apr 26, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
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"His latest Mescalito Free Project without adding/changing/altering any bolts or original pro placements and totally adapting to what was in place, an example I can accept and many here should follow."
... says the guy who likes to install bolted rap routes in the backcountry.
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Llewelyn Moss
Big Wall climber
Ken Kesey's place at La Honda
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Apr 26, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
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the ideological waters are a bit off color today...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 26, 2010 - 06:07pm PT
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The ONLY thing in contention here is should the FA team have done the route ground up aiding up the bolt ladder and doing the upper pitches from stances/hooks creating another R/X rated route that almost no one would ever do, OR should they have done that but returned later and retro-bolted their own route so other people could enjoy the route with reasonable protection OR should they have done it like they did?
The only thing that really matters is that some potential party lost the capability to do the route ground up, wether it be Sean's party or another party. Should the FA party have the freedom to establish how they want? Or should they be constrained by other people's "rules"?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 26, 2010 - 06:12pm PT
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The Chief, it's interesting you are so opposed to route closures to help non-enangered wildlife, but so forceful about keeping people of routes to protect them for people who may be able to do the FA in a better style.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 26, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
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You may be right in a theoretical sense Cos, but the idea of removing a 100+ bolts up there & patching the holes seems like a ludicrous and fanatical act. It would create a complete shitshow and end up making more of a mess than there is now. Besides, that kind of extremism just begets more extremism... no one is going to "learn" anything from that kind of example except anger. Just go up there and put up a new route, or a new finish at least, in better style and call it good at that. No reason to be a dick about it by pulling out the bolts. Sounds like a real pain in the ass anyway!!
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Apr 26, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
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"Maybe, toughs like BDA will never understand simple things like ethics, but allowing a limited wall to have a tradition of ground up seems like a very small thing to ask."
I reckon that wall still has such a tradition, but one route on that wall broke with the tradition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw
I prefer GU climbing, but I'm not keen to embrace tradition as law.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Apr 26, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
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NATE RICKLIN!!! WHAT's UP? I hope you're out cranking still! I was out at an excellently repel bolted cliff last weekend. Hopefully I'll catch you up in the Valley some time this summer. - Tony from the SD days.
I wandered over to this never ending thread to see what could possibly consumer more pages than the Bible itself. Having not read the first 2600 posts, I have no idea what's going on, but it's fun to see old faces.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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Coz wrote: Maybe, toughs like BDA will never understand simple things like ethics, but allowing a limited wall to have a tradition of ground up seems like a very small thing to ask.
Ethics are not simple and have little or nothing to do with the sport of climbing.
Style Coz, style. You just didn't like the style they did the route. So what.
No one stopped you, the Chief or any other ground up climber from doing that route..you stopped yourselves.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
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I haven't posted here, because I don't see it as my job to give my position/opinion about the ethics of a first ascent. Of course I have my opinions about good style like all of you, but I haven't virtually arrived on this scene late in the game to throw down my version of the right way to put up a route.
I always talk about climbing routes ground up whenever possible, not using fixed ropes whenever possible, and not having gear caches at the base or the top of any walls...whenever possible. This happens all the Valley, and throughout the Sierra. Since I've been in this job the NPS unofficial standard has been--climbers can leave equipment or fixed lines (not food) as long as they are actively working a route (be it a first ascent, or a project). When we do have to leave anything minimize the time it's left and the amount of equipment we cache. Of course sometimes the idea of "working a route actively" is taken a bit far and too long. The official word is no more than 24 hours unattended, but as we say, it's the spirit of the law instead of the letter that matters most.
I realize I am in the tiny minority of climbers around here that don't like the "historic" fixed lines up to Heart Ledges, East Ledges, and The Death Slabs. Out of respect for my self instituted policy of, "pick your battles--let the climbing community self police", I remove these ropes only periodically and don't spend my time climbing Free Blast everyweek.
I've called out a lot of my friends on this issue and others, and we've always had good natured discussions about the merits. The point is, the climbing community largely polices itself (I'm part of this community as well). We can have these debates without insulting each other, listening to different points of view, and respect. RESPECT, To me that's the most important part of all of this. We first have to respect the rock, the plants and animals that call it home, and the entire ecosystem. Then we also have to respect each other.
2 cents,
Jesse McGahey
Yos. Climbing Ranger
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
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I almost forgot to mention. No one can chop bolts, or climb GU until the peregrine nesting closure for the South Face of Half Dome is lifted. Sorry folks.
The Cheif, the cables are outside of the closure zone. "Closure includes all routes from “Autobahn” east to and including “South Face Route”.
Thanks,
Jesse
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
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Bummer. I was totally gonna do it next weekend. :-p
Since we've got a few more months for everyone to explain their extremely ambiguous POVs to us, anyone wanna make bets on whose aneurism ruptures first?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:18pm PT
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To be clear, GU means Ground Up in my abbreviation lexicon. Not sure if the "you" in your post was supposed to be me.
Because the rock in Yosemite is so generous with opportunities to apply the style, I like climbing ground up where the rock lets me, leaving the rest for my betters, perhaps in a future time.
I've broken my own rules in small ways (additional cleaning on the way down, replacing an FA pin w/ a bolt, etc.) I've gotten in arguments when I was offended by the choices or agitations of others (see numerous arguments retrobolting the face climbs on Middle). But as we near the zillionth post, the argument gets silly even if the topic is not.
And, probably like lots of climbers, I don't want anyone to tell me what I can and can't do, even if I would have done what you wanted w/o the telling.
(EDIT) "When me and Kurt almost freed El Cap, almost nobody thought it was very possible, now it´s common place."
The tradition of freeing El Cap was ushered into our consciousness of the possible w/ a lot of fixed lines and top down practice using retrobolts for the anchors and more than a few for pro. I'm still pretty sure that the only style that is "common place" for freeing El Cap includes either or both of the aformentioned strategies. And I bet at least half if not more (90% if you discount Freerider) result in calls to mags and/or sponsors. Maybe Tom can tell us what % of free ascents are followed by photographer ascents (or descents as the case often is)?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
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The Chief wrote: Maybe that is the difference in some of us BDA....
Yes...some of us do have have lives out of climbing, work full time, raise families, are married and realize that climbing adds something special to our lives but is not an end all.
Chief wrote: I knew it would the center focus of my life.
My wife and kids have been the center focus of mine and I still managed to fit in some good climbing.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
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Coz wrote: Do you suggest that all climbs be done on a first come first serve basis
Hasn't that been the always been the case or do parties need approval?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
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Scott...I think they might be OK...it they can live here, Half Dome is paradise.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/nyregion/13falcon.html
Scott wrote: Peregrines, are beautiful up there, we climbed next to them.
If they were hatching you may have done more damaged than the trash.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Apr 26, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
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Renaming the route may not be a bad idea.
I vote for
"Growing Wings"
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 26, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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I kind of like your name.
I was just watching the scene in Avatar where the flying dragons shoot straight down a cliff face and then pop out into the valley. Which they totally stole from the swifts dive bombing Valley walls.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 26, 2010 - 11:04pm PT
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Very insightful and poignant post by Jesse the climbing ranger. Thank you Jesse for a voice of reason, and for being such an asset to the climbing community. It is greatly appreciated, even by those that don't voice it.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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Just for clarity - the coz guy who was climbing with a Kurt? Was he climbing with the Kurt Smith who got popped by the NPS (while trying to free some El Cap route) for using an effing power drill?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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So he he used a power drill, big fuking deal dude.
There's no fuking difference between the final product in the end.
It's a bolt any way you fill that hole.
Next complaint please, take a number while you're at it since there's about 2 million ahead of you .....
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:54am PT
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Outdated and mostly irrelevant there, Mr_T--find a back issue of a climbing mag or two, and then research more; enlightenment on an topic is most fulfilling...
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:56am PT
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Pot calling the pan black.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Apr 27, 2010 - 01:38am PT
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Much harder ground up pitches were established decades prior to this debacle. The scenes have been played out on stages of much lower profile than this...time and time again. Kudos to Sean for his hard work on an eight pitch masterpiece but I believe he should have left it at that. I think he believe's the same deep down. If climbers are succeeding on moves of a similar style ten letter grades harder (only three years later) than GU it seems a no brainer that the route goes (ground up). Maybe one day with a partner who climbs at least at his level, he will go and climb the upper pitches ignoring the gear installed from above, gearing only where the stone, and ability, permits. Nobody knows the route better than he does.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:42am PT
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Werner said: So he he used a power drill, big fuking deal dude.
There's no fuking difference between the final product in the end.
It's a bolt any way you fill that hole.
By extension, it would seem that it's a bolt no matter how you made the hole too, right? The end result is the same.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 27, 2010 - 10:12am PT
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...it's a bolt no matter how you made the hole too, right? The end result is the same.
That is a lot like saying if I were to ride a bike from LA to Bishop or drive there in a car the end result would be the same...
Hey as long as we're tossing around new names for the route I suggest "Too Big to Fail."
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 27, 2010 - 10:45am PT
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Kris wrote: That is a lot like saying if I were to ride a bike from LA to Bishop or drive there in a car the end result would be the same...
It would...you would still end up in Bishop. The experience of driving or biking would be different but you would still end up in Bishop.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 10:47am PT
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No Kris, that analogy doesn't hold, because the impact in your bike/drive scenario doesn't compare to a rap/ground up comparison. Oh, there's an impact in the sense you might wind up with a route where one might not otherwise be, but I'm just addressing Werner's logic regarding bolts.
If it doesn't matter how you physically make a hole (hand or cordless drill) because a bolt is a bolt, then it doesn't matter how you go about making the hole (rap or ground up) because in the end, a bolt is a bolt. I'm not necessarily advocating for that position, I'm just following the proposition. I don't see how one can be true if the other isn't.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:02am PT
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Okay Bob and Off, you guys seem to take the position that the process of getting something done is irrelevant from the final result. I do not see it that way.
I spent my professional career working in recording studios with musicians. I worked with players who could read a chart on sight beautifully, and I spent many hours editing together multiple takes from players who couldn't do that. End result in either case was a finished piece of music. Equating the two processes is the same as saying that since a route is "done" it no longer matters how it got there.
If I got on a bike right now and rode to Bishop my life would be different than if I were to drive. I barely remember the details of my last drive to Bishop but I recall vividly bicycle trips from decades ago.
Just my point of view. Cheers.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:12am PT
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Style and process are everything in climbing.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:16am PT
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please, PLEASE, don't remove the route before I have a chance to do it this summer.
thanks,
Doug
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:19am PT
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Kris wrote: Okay Bob and Off, you guys seem to take the position that the process of getting something done is irrelevant from the final result.
No I don't...I'm just pointing out that Sean and Doug chose a different way. It was a personal choice and that is the great thing about doing FA's.
I still do ground up and top down FA's...it is my personal choice.
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krahmes
Social climber
LP
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:19am PT
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Point to Ksolem.
If you drive to LA to Bishop you probably used 15 gallons of gas, released that carbon in the gas into atmospheric CO2, killed a fair amount of insects on the way up and given the speed and cluster grouping the weekend warriors tend to move up 395 probably contributed to the death of a rabbit, pack rat or snake or two; particularly in spring, which in turn feeds the ravens and not coincidently drives their population up. Finally when you drive to Bishop you end up, all grown up in Bishop, with a car. When you ride a bike from LA to Bishop none of this happens and you end up, probably broke with a bike in Bishop.
The process does matter in the outcome of the end result. And yes the analogy holds for drilling holes. Think about and break it down.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:25am PT
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Jeez, you guys have been busy (while I was out climbing in Yosemite for the last 4 days, hint, hint). It's going to take me forever to catch up on all of this.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:34am PT
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DMT if you ride the bus you are lesbian, as in "she rides the bus". and therefore you are confused about sexuality and will arrive in bishop and hook up with another lesbian climbing chick who is a quite the dyke and she will kick your a$$ for being so soft but you will both have fun doing it and then the consideration of who drilled who from the top wont matter cuz you will both be smiling.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Apr 27, 2010 - 11:59am PT
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Mark, did you climb GU?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
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Rap bolted aside, on my best day, I could probably not climb GU. I did have loads of fun on the Nabisco Wall, the start of the Nose and the start of Freeblast though!
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
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But, but, you're Mark Hudon and you're a badass! :)
Just teasing man, glad you had a productive Valley trip!
EDIT; Pictures Mark!
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
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A quick question - has "growing up" been ascended by any party from the ground to the top, with fixing or a bivy or in one shot ??? Rapping in and doing the upper section on its own doesn't count
Yes or no.
If yes then who ?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
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What a bunch of wankers. 3 years of bitching and no one has even repeted the damn thing..
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
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Someone would have eventually done SB without fixed ropes. Of course rap bolting is more of a stylistic transgression than fixed ropes but someone could always do the FA in better style unless you do a barefoot free solo.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
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The Chief:
Integrity of Style & Principal.
When it suits you, The Chief?
The Chief: Right or wrong don't mean shit!
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
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And maybe someday figure out a way to actually free the rappel-installed (!!) 60' A0 bolt ladder and pendulum too!
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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you guys seem to take the position that the process of getting something done is irrelevant from the final result.
No, it seems to me the question for this particular route is what it more important the final result or how it got done? i.e. should the route have been done ground up in a better style, but the route would have had holes leading to nowhere, and sparse protection (like all the other free routes on the face), or should it have been done like it was sacrificing style on the first ascent to create a route that followed the best line up and allowing enough protection that more than one party a decade will climb it.
Edit: it seems the FA party deliberated long and hard on this question and chose the latter.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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Chief...you are wanker..lead by example and go do a better job on a route of same difficulty. It a big wide open face.
Bachar had the right to his opinion...just like the rest of us.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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Somebody got Reinhold's number? I think we need his opinion.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 27, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
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Let's run with Messner for a minute.
I was greatly influenced by his idea of "not carrying your courage in your rucksack." So I climbed exactly that way over on the other side of the Dome, not carrying a hammer as a commitment to the first clean ascent of the Regular Northwest Face.
But it turns out that he was talking about not carrying bolts on a FA. That worked fine for him in the Alps. He proudly sprayed that he never placed a bolt there.
But for Yosemite, that would mean no Apron, no El Cap, no Tuolumne.
What works great and is noble for one terrain feels ludicrous and silly on another.
It's situational.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Apr 27, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
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Chief...
...had this route been done by some visiting "Euro's" in the same fashion, the route would have been chopped in a week if not sooner and their presence never again welcomed into the Valley. That is a fact
I absolutely agree with this! Nice point!
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Apr 27, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
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Message sent to Mr. Messner.
Best,
Brandon-
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 27, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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Siegfried Lives!
There is plenty of Impossible on that wall. Poking along the base of the face, it's everywhere.
Have at it.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 27, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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I don't think anyone would object to rap in route inspection.
Actually upthread there was a post about previewing taking away the potential for someone to do the route onsight.
I wouldn't have a problem with a rap to inspect and find the best line. But you often need to climb to really determine if a line will go. You couldn't do a 1000 foot top rope. So the next step is putting only anchors in on rappel and TRing each pitch. Which I think is doing the route from the top down.
Perhaps the only way to make everyone happy would have been to do the climb ground up with sparse pro, then the FA party returns later to add more pro bolts on rappel. So the end result is a route with reasonable pro, but someone had that ground up adventure. But then why are we so concerned with the FA party's experience if the end result is the same?
Edit: to answer my own question since this climb was publicized I guess the FA experience is important due to it's influence.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 27, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
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I probably will rap down and try the last few pitches the next time I do Snake Dike.
Pure? NO!!
Fun? Probably YES!!
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
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Okay, Kris, I see what you're talking about: the nature of the experience. I'd assumed you were making a carbon footprint kind of statement. I agree that the onsite ground up first ascent provides a very different sort of experience than rappel cleaning/scrubbing/top roping/bolting type route development, and your analogy works just fine within your personal context. I do know folks who derive a great deal of pleasure from the latter form of doing new routes. Its like there are different fundamental approaches yielding different sorts of satisfaction. One is more the artistic inspiration driven concept, and the other is the work of a craftsman seeking to move closer to perfection. Craft by nature is more repetitive, Art tends to be more unique. One does not invalidate the other. Seeing as how I'm married to a woman who straddles that Art/Craft divide in her work, its not surprising I'd bring that interpretation to the party.
That's all about the experience of the first ascent party, after that singular event though, its a done deal, and the specifics of how the bolt went in don't really matter. Climbing tradition dictates that future parties play the hand the first ascenionists dealt them. Its not okay to add fixed protection to routes, it shouldn't be okay to remove it either.
All this sound and fury is over the experience of a very few number of people, folks who are putting up new routes. Most of us in the unwashed masses just repeat the routes that suit us at any given time. It's in our interests to have a range of routes to choose from, a smorgasbord of challenge to fit wherever we happen to be in our personal arc as a climber, but its really inappropriate for anyone to dictate that only one flavor defines all that climbing can be, that we all must eat nothing but brussel sprouts. Now, I happen to like brussel sprouts, but I do enjoy a wider variety. We don't all have to like the same thing, isn't it a beautiful world?
I have a family, live within a varied community, and run a business. Having employees is like having dependents, people who rely on me for a living. I even have other hobbies. I'm 51, time feels precious. I live on the west side of the Cascades in Washington, where the moss and brush work diligently every year to take it all back, and I'm grateful to all the folks with the time to do new routes of all types, write guidebooks, share information, build trails, clear brush, all so that I can go out on a weekend and do a dozen routes. My thanks to Matt Christensen, Paul Boving, Andy Fitz, Jim Yoder, Marlene Ford and Curtis Gibson, I rode on the shoulders of your hard work the last couple days and had a wonderful time out climbing with friends.
For this peasant, Growing Up takes nothing away from Southern Belle. They're both routes I'll never do, but I've enjoyed the stories associated with them, and I'm glad the folks who put them up found them personally rewarding. Now, please go put up something a little easier for me, okay?
:-} <-- little smiley thing to let everyone know that I'm just having fun and not all worked up at anyone.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
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OK, maybe dumb but sincere question. If you rap down to try to the last few pitches, what do you do if you can't make it back up? Do you leave a fixed line in case of emergency? I assume the bolts are far enough apart so to that need to do mandatory free climbing between them.
[Not that anyone would or should care what I think, but in Colo, it seems to work pretty well to have different sport and trad areas, and use the appropriate ethics for each area. I don't think the proponents of old school ethics are being unreasonable in trying to keep a few areas old school and preserve some rock for future generations who may want to do ground up. In case you Cal. climbers don't know, Bob D is not universally loved and admired in Colo for his prolific (to say the least) bolting. (But at least he does have a good eye for routes!)]
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
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Ok Dave, I promise to wear real rock climbing shoes if you go up there w/ me and
check out what all the hub-hubb is about. This thread is good comedy at this point, but
until someone checks it out and gives us a real 2nd opinion on what they see, it's
allot of arrogance, speculation, and a measure of BS. It might actually be a great route.
Yes it differs in style than the other 1st on the wall, but I'm not sure what is really the
difference here and uncountable rap-drilled sport routes throughout the Valley, Josh,
Red Rock, etc. And I'm curious what DR has done here as he is a fellow guide I admire,
and genuinely a nice guy.
Dave, if we can get up the thing, maybe we'll be "world class" poseurs.
Doug
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
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Now, please go put up something a little easier for me, okay?
No sh*t brother, my feelings exactly.....
That cracked me up!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
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Perhaps the only way to make everyone happy would have been to do the climb ground up with sparse pro, then the FA party returns later to add more pro bolts on rappel. So the end result is a route with reasonable pro, but someone had that ground up adventure. But then why are we so concerned with the FA party's experience if the end result is the same?
Edit: to answer my own question since this climb was publicized I guess the FA experience is important due to it's influence.
the crux analysis IMO and best answer, spot on.
To put it another way, precedent value in an age of access issues has importance that might yet be usefully determined by questions of style.
Like Off White says, there is room for both in a country as large as ours, and not everyone thinks of 'maturing' in the same way.
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:39pm PT
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I have dispatched advisement to Team Canada, last night, whom is presently in the Valley, of the first ascent plum available for the picking on SFHD. This team is young, rad and trad with single push ascents of Golden Gate and a Grade VI FA in Patagonia, Howser Towers etc ... within the past two years under their belts.
In spite of the advertising, this route has not seen a legitimate first ascent yet
Doug Robinson, would you care to add some notes on the gear list for the arch so I can forward that info as well ?
GO Team Canada !!!!
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:43pm PT
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Finish the complete quote GARY....
I did, CHIEF.
Kris Solem says you're a great guy in person. That's good enough for me.
But when you brag about installing backcountry convenience anchors online, don't bag on others about placing bolts on rappel. Consistency is a virtue, too.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 27, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
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Glad to hear the Canadians are fired up to do it. We'll all be really interested in their impression of the climbing.
In my opinion the FA has already been done. Personal opinion, though, and I'm not interested in debating the point.
Sean's hardware list on the topo is very specific. I have nothing to add.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
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Kris says Chief is alright? Oh holy conflicting loyalties Batman! I got to hang around Doug Robinson during the Grossman/Mimi wedding extravaganza and thought he was a great guy, but Kris is the brother of a friend of mine and an old friend of my wife. How the hell am I supposed to know what to think if my various personal allegiances are at odds with each other? Now I need a whirly eyed emoticon!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 27, 2010 - 03:29pm PT
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Oh holy conflicting loyalties Batman!
Doug and Sean had to know they would catch a ration. They did it anyway. No hate from me, just confusion and dissappointment. I would never call for the route to be removed, it's not my place to. Coz on the other hand has some big shoes to fill on that wall and I really understand his position.
Personally I don't think Yosemite's big walls are an appropriate venue for rap bolting, and I hope this route does not open a trend. Only time will tell.
Anyway I agree to disagree with my friends all the time, otherwise I wouldn't have many left by now. Heck, Shortimer wants to rap bolt a line on a new crag I found. I told him "over my dead body," but that's hyperbole too...
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Apr 27, 2010 - 03:51pm PT
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Wow-now this is getting really exciting!
A hockey match in Little Yosemite. After the crushing blow in the Olympics, perhaps team Camp 4 can redeem itself......................
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Apr 27, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
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Could it be that I get the 2700th post?
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Apr 27, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
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The race is on!
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Apr 27, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
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Holy crap there it is!!!
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Apr 27, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
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I WIN!!!!!! WOO HOO!!!
Go SUCK it!
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Apr 27, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
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NOOOOOOOOOO!
Oh i totally did not get 2700. This is terrible. Get me some epoxy and a power drill quick!
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Two Pack Jack
climber
The hills
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Apr 27, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
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Climb it an chop it or shut up. I'm so tired of so many people who just love to hear themselves talk on this forum.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 27, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
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2pj, Climb it an chop it or shut up. I'm so tired of so many people who just love to hear themselves talk on this forum.
thanks for that very valuable opinion...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 27, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
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You have to wonder how many bolts on free variations on El Cap have been placed hanging on the rope from the next anchor.
Don't know the answer myself
Peace
Karl
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 27, 2010 - 05:28pm PT
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I am willing to bet a coke Gary, that if the situ dictates, you most assuredly will utilize those recently replaced anchors to get your ass off that mountain. But then again, I may be wrong.
I owe you a Coke. Hell, yeah, I'd use them. There's a cheater bolt on a route I climb frequently that I use. I wouldn't place it, though.
The point is, Chief, you need to reflect on the motives of others, too. Just as you can justify rapping in to place convenience anchors, perhaps the motives of others are not as black and white as you make it out to be.
Your online persona of self-righteous indignation reflects poorly on you. Sure, it makes great trolling, but we are a small community. Why have people think you're a jerk, when you are not?
And how in the hell did I get sucked into this thread? Crap!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 27, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
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Climb it an chop it or shut up. I'm so tired of so many people who just love to hear themselves talk on this forum.
says the pot or the kettle?
heh
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Apr 27, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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this is just a ploy to distract me from the NBA PLAYOFFS!!!!!!!1
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
GO CAVS..
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 27, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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Remember as far as ascents go (Team Canada etc.), the south face of HD is currently closed for peregrine nesting.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 27, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
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The next ascent of the South face of Half Dome .....
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 27, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
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Makes for a great motivator when I am out climbing, a big ass group of folks come out of now where, invade the quiet sereneness of our climb and someone in the crowds recognizes me from online. They instantly gather all their gear and high tail it outta there as fast as they can.
Thus, I return to having the place all to myself. Works pretty well actually.
Got it! :-)
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 27, 2010 - 06:12pm PT
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 27, 2010 - 07:23pm PT
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only 18,000 more posts to go and then this too can rival the "whats wrong with repugs thread..."
guess coz should have named this one, "Whats wrong with rapp bolters on SFHD"
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Apr 27, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
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How many of you are lining up to have at a bottom up hand drilled new route there?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2010 - 01:13am PT
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^^^^ It's already been done ^^^^^^
Why the need to reinvent the wheel.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 28, 2010 - 02:01am PT
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How many of you are lining up to have at a bottom up hand drilled new route there?
fuk it, I'll cough up with the notion that I'm looking at getting in there.
whatever I put up will be piss easy compared to the bad asses that have gone before. I'll hang off hooks to place my pro, if it even goes. I don't know that it will. But that's ok. if it was a known quantity, it's just not as fun.
I personally think lots of folks should be getting further away from the Valley floor. And why not try and preserve ground up approaches in Yosemite? Doesn't mean we got to do it everywhere.
Has the snow melted out up there yet? How bad are the bugs?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Apr 28, 2010 - 08:47am PT
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Holy Toledo, Doug is a Mud Shark?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Apr 28, 2010 - 10:41am PT
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A secret Mud Shark at that. From a Toledo sleeper cell.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 28, 2010 - 11:06am PT
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fuk it, I'll cough up with the notion that I'm looking at getting in there.
whatever I put up will be piss easy compared to the bad asses that have gone before. I'll hang off hooks to place my pro, if it even goes. I don't know that it will. But that's ok. if it was a known quantity, it's just not as fun.
I personally think lots of folks should be getting further away from the Valley floor. And why not try and preserve ground up approaches in Yosemite? Doesn't mean we got to do it everywhere.
Has the snow melted out up there yet? How bad are the bugs?
The South Face is closed for peregrines right now.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 28, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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talk is cheap
yup
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
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Talk is not/never cheap when it's the Absolute Truth .....
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Apr 28, 2010 - 03:29pm PT
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Werner
There is no absolut truth.
There is only Absolut.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 28, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
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KB: You have to wonder how many bolts on free variations on El Cap have been placed hanging on the rope from the next anchor. What?! You mean someone has freed El Cap? On sight, no falls, rests, pre-inspection, or other trickery? Wow - amazing. Who did it? There hasn't been any spray about it at all, although some attempts seem to have come close.
ps Not counting the west face, though maybe it should be.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 28, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
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What, Anders have you never heard of the East Buttress of El Cap? That counts as a free route, doesn't it?
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Apr 28, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
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On my first trip up the nose, some jackass had the week before fixed lines all the way up to El Cap Towers. He even had the gall to leave a note saying not to touch his ropes and "burn his chances". Really took things down a peg when there's a fixed line right in your face. This is how nose freeing was done by one party (NOT LYNN HILL btw). The jackass then got a write up in Rock and Ice and claimed a second free ascent or some bull crap - all this going Harding 1950's style on it.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 28, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
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we can only guess at who that was.......
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Timmy
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Apr 29, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
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I have read the entire thread from the ground-up (to here). Many brilliant posts from every point on the spectrum. Karl Baba is the clear winner with his pragmatic, well thought out posts. Werner also killed it with his super guru style...and Russ Walling OMG, funny sht!
Anyway, I was wondering when the perigrine closure ends and if it will be too hot to climb Sean's route then, or if it will have to wait till fall?..
Also, I could really use some sponsorship for my attempt as I am fairly broke but really need do something awesome like this route (since none of you slabby Californians are going to put up) ...Eh?
Tim
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 29, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
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Is this a new thread?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2010 - 01:47am PT
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Karl Baba is the clear winner with his pragmatic, well thought out posts. Werner also killed it with his super guru style...and Russ Walling OMG, funny sht!
Don't say that! The surest way to be set up as a loser is to be declared winner. I wanna lay low in the ego wars as the kings of the hills take the biggest shots
Wishing everybody in this thread on all sides well. We're all bozos on this stone.
Special kudos to a couple folks I argue with that emailed me. Agree to disagree is the way of peace
Peace
Karl
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Apr 30, 2010 - 04:43am PT
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HEY WHO YOU CALLING BOZO?
Them's is fight'en words babba!
peace my $ss...sheesh...
'0'
Oink
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Timmy
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Apr 30, 2010 - 11:16am PT
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Karl, I'm just saying that your view is the one that most closely matches my own. Pragmatic=less ego and a willingness to consider all sides.
The whole thread reads like a movie script with a large cast of my favorite actors.
I,m really inspired (by y'all) to get out there and try the route. IMO, subsequent ascents, especially a continuous ascent are important. After all the work is done, the true flow of a route can be experienced, much like a redpoint ascent of a single pitch.
cool,
Tim
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
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Just curious ...
Has chopping a route ever made an area/route better? Has it ever changed the style in which routes are done in the area?
I can't think of a situation where chopping has resulted in something good, although I admit, I haven't been back East to see what Ken Nichol's work produced.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 30, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
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K-man wrote: I can't think of a situation where chopping has resulted in something good, although I admit, I haven't been back East to see what Ken Nichol's work produced.
Jail time.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 30, 2010 - 01:09pm PT
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Ken Finally got legle court orders against him to keep him away from most of his destruction. Finally they were able to get back to climbing instead of patching holes and fixing vandalized anchors.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 30, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
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Coz, I'm of the mind that the thing shouldn't have been done that way to begin with, if you've read my posts you know that, but it was.
Maybe you better get up there and see if you can clip those bolts before you start pullin' 'em. I mean after doing the bottom, that is.
You might change your mind about all that extra defacing work.
You'll never make it gramps......
WOOHOOO!!!
Gawd, sometimes I crack me up.
Seriously, you think you can give the thing a serious go, ground up, as is?
Just as a "See, I told you so", you could go up there, climb it as is, skip as many bolts as you think you can get away with, then come back and chew their ass some more, or sing a different tune.
Something to think about.
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Larry
Trad climber
Bisbee
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Apr 30, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
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There is a special place in hell for guys like Karl, he never really says how he feels he just plays both sides.
Damn Buddhists and their Middle Way.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 30, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
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coz, most do care about ethics, they just see it differently than you.
What is more ethical doing a climb ground up and having the best FA experience for yourself, but leaving a climb that almost no one else would ever do? Or sacrificing your FA experience to leave a climb that others will enjoy? There is no correct answer to that question.
On the flip side of this situation are the lines in Toulumne that had a free solo FA. So you have moderate lines that almost no one will ever climb because a high level climber free soloed FAed a 5.9 climb. Was it selfish? Perhaps. But it was the decision of the FA party how they wanted to do the climb. First come, first served is an ethic that transcends climbing.
And I'm with Karl sitting on the fence. Not because I don't have the courage to make a decision, but because I'm not really sure how I feel about this situation. I see both sides. I know I would at least have to climb the line to have an educated opinion one way or the other if they climb should have been done the way it was. It's not so simple as saying no climb should ever be rap bolted. What about 5.15 sport routes that simply could not be done ground up? Should they not exist? I think they should, it's another style of climbing, the important experience for those types of climbs is the redpoint, not the FA experience.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 30, 2010 - 04:47pm PT
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Have to go with you and Coz on this one. The next generation never ceases to surprise, let's leave them a clean canvas for their art.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 30, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
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It's not so simple as saying no climb should ever be rap bolted.
Coz did not say that no route should ever be rap bolted. He has unrepeated (not for lack of people trying) routes in Josh with bolts placed on rappel.
What he is saying is that this magnificent and iconic face, one of the world's great opportunities for standard setting adventure climbs, should not have been brought down like this.
Earlier DR used the word situational. In reference to many aspects of climbing this can be a very useful word. My objection to this route is situational also. Location. History. Future adventures.
Jim, unfortunately I don't think that even if chopped a route can ever be considered a clean canvass.
Sad but true. And a good reason to look at this and say it should not have been done.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
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I'm not comparing anybody to Ken. And, if I remember, Nichols got in trouble with the law for assault, not for chopping bolts.
I'm just wondering if anything positive has ever resulted from somebody chopping somebody else's route.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
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Right you are Pate, but if the Compressor Route had never been done the most beautiful mountain in the world would also be one of the best tics in the world.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:28pm PT
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I'm just wondering if anything positive has ever resulted from somebody chopping somebody else's route.
I can come up with some examples, but not on the scale of SFHD.
A few years ago a well known accomplished local put some bolted routes on a rock in a parking area at Josh. One day I was hanging in this lot and watched as some tourists inspected the bolts from the ground and expressed amazement that climbers were allowed to do this. I removed the bolts and gave them back to their owner who agreed that it was better they were not there.
I removed the bolts from a route in the Southern Sierra which featured manufactured holds in an area where this doen't fly. I'm still on friendly terms with the climber who did that too.
edit: Another one:
There is a great hard route on Future Games Rock called Games Without Frontiers, 5.13a/b. Years before this route was established (ground up) by Paul Borne I was out there and saw some Euros rap bolting that line. They were putting in a lot of bolts. I went back to HVCC and informed one of the leading climbers in the area about this. The bolts were quickly chopped and that section of the face sat blank until Paul came along and protected perfectly on lead with three bolts. It's a great climb now.
There is a crack climb at Courtright called Cradle Will Rock which was climbed by many over the years before it sprouted bolts. They will be going away when I am up there with the right technology for removing Petzl bolts without making a mess. The world will be a better place for it too...
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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Maybe this one is worth it and maybe not. As others have mentioned, Robbins thought WEML was a travesty and should be removed until he got on it.
I'd argue that there is little evidence this one climb has changed general ethics on the SFHD or in Yos in general. I haven't heard of any big increase in rap-bolting.
As for the SFHD, while I admire the routes there, I'm not sure that I agree that an entire giant wall should be only the province of those who can climb runout 5.11-12. There's options for early repeats on a couple of those, and it sounds like room for more of those. I'm not sure that haven't one different type of route diminishes that experience.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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Coz said
" I do rap bolt but not on big walls and only a few times in JT, on climbs with extremely fragile holds.
I did climb The Rastafarian in JT ground up, it´s been repeated and is now rated 14b. So, I can and do both.
So, my point is, that a big wall like the SFHD should in my way of thinking, be preserved. It´s a gaint wall not a little sport cliff, why rap bolt it? "
Who's to say Rastafarian shouldn't have remained a top rope?
And does size really matter? Lil kwiffs desove wespekt too.
"Now the die has shaken,
now the die must fall.
There ain't no winner in the game,
we don't go home with all,
not with all."
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
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Kris wrote: There is a crack climb at Courtright called Cradle Will Rock which was climbed by many over the years before it sprouted bolts. They will be going away when I am up there with the right technology for removing Petzl bolts without making a mess. The world will be a better place for it too...
You are talking apples and oranges. The routes already were established and bolts were added later.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
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Bob, only in that last case. The others were new bolted routes, the first case was a bad choice of location, being in your face about it on a rock which is a bit of a landmark. The second was manufactured so the issue was one of "ethics."
edit: Actually the Games Without Fronteirs case is the most relevant if you read what I said.
Cheers,
K
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
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coz wrote, The problem with this forum is so few people have climbed on the SFHD, or really care about ethics.
right on the first one, wrong on the second. i agree that the route GU should never have been done. i also agree that rapp bolting should be situational and not on hte great cliffs of the world...
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
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Kris...maybe I don't understand what you are getting at???
If you want the bolts removed then you do it. :-)
The really weird part is that after two full years no one has climbed, rapped or hiked up to the wall to check the climb out. Not one pitch has been repeated even the upper ones that access from Cables. This talk is just fodder for the internet.
Coz or anyone else could have gone up and climbed the route and assess the situation first hand and reported on the bolting and climbing.
Looks like the nay sayers really just don't give a f*#k. :-)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
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Bob I said upthread that I don't think it is my place to recommend chopping, or to chop that route. I don't have those kind of footprints in The Valley, it would be a rediculous act.
I do know Coz, and I understand how and why he feels as he does. And as one who grew up on DR's writings I have said here that I am confused and dissapointed by his choices. That's all.
My talk about chopping was a direct answer to a direct question which I quoted. Nothing more.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 30, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
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Kris...I understand...but if really meant that much you think someone...anyone would have made the effort to at least check it out.
I also "grew up" reading Doug's writing...that was the 1970's and things change, and thankfully so.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 30, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
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Bobby D, I've got to disagree- makes no difference how good the climb is. Rap bolting, acceptable as it may be in the sport climbing arena, has no place either in the mountains or the iconic big walls of the world- especially where many climbs have been done without resorting to rap bolting.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 30, 2010 - 07:22pm PT
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WEML was established ground up, and is likely to be considered an inapposite example, as phrased. The chopping effort, though ultimately a reflection of understanding and a meeting of the minds, also reflects the position and precedent that excessive bolting in principle, which is often in the form of top down efforts (not in WEML case), is not acceptable even in the climbing community itself, much less to land managers.
The bare principle that there can be such a thing as too much bolting is a truism. We should guard against that. For example, no bolting next to protectable cracks by way of example.
If I were to speculate/paraphrase what Cos is saying; is that this method of approach sets a new precedent in a direction that every single one of us should think about before we set drill to stone.
IMO, we do these things not because they are easy, but precisely because they are hard and unknowns.
"climbing should be like shitting an anvil" -DMT
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chez
Social climber
chicago ill
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Apr 30, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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I'm with coz on this one. Being a climbing photographer not so back in the day, i can see that the lure of the "mag" played a huge part in the decision of finishing this route.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 30, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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Jim wrote: Bobby D, I've got to disagree- makes no difference how good the climb is. Rap bolting, acceptable as it may be in the sport climbing arena, has no place either in the mountains or the iconic big walls of the world- especially where many climbs have been done without resorting to rap bolting.
Jim..rap bolting started before "sport climbing" as did chipping, aiding off hooks, pre-placing protection and other so called sins.
Coz and others just don't like the way the climb was done. I can respect that...I don't have to agree.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 30, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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What about a variant to what was done? That is, once the climbers "dead-ended", what if they had then inspected possible lines en rappel, perhaps even trying the moves to ensure everything linked up? Then led the selected line, placing anchors as they went? It would certainly have been pre-inspected, and much of the uncertainty of route-finding would be gone, but it would otherwise be closer to the on-sight ideal, without the possibility of leaving dead-end lines all over.
Although leaving something for a better climber has always been my philosophy.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
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Since this ugly chop talk is going around, I'd like to suggest it would be pretty light to chop the route without climbing it.
Coz wrote
There is a place in hell for guys like Karl, he never really says how he feels he just plays both sides.
yeah, personally I'm straight. Romantically, it's all women for me. Does that mean we can get rid of the gay people? People used to get lynched for what's perfectly acceptable these days, like marrying a different race.
live and let live. I think that folks like Robbins in his time would have found some of Coz's tactics on crags or even El Cap deplorable. Times change.
Fine to register your offense at Sean's ethics. The older generation always does. Time decides
PEace
karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 30, 2010 - 10:40pm PT
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The really weird part is that after two full years no one has climbed, rapped or hiked up to the wall to check the climb out. Not one pitch has been repeated even the upper ones that access from Cables. This talk is just fodder for the internet.
Bob, that's not accurate. Salamanizer did the bottom pitches, all the way to the AO I think. He said it was good, but ran out of time and guns.
He sounded honest about it.
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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You know,
This is thing that pissies me off about some ST fags.
Not only do you not know Sean or Doug or their history. You don’t know the route. Now a few do. Coz and the old school Valley boys know. The rest of you don’t know shit! The part that’s rapped is some dice sh#t. Should it have been done that way? It is not for me to say. But it is done. I have said it before,
Go up do it yourself do it in better style if can. But don’t sit your ass in front of a computer and talk sh#t about things you don’t know sh#t about. The people, stone, history or the route.
Dog.
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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To put Doug and Sean in the same class as chop, cut, drill and hammer. I have to draw the line. Now I know a bit more about Lions feeding on their own.
Dog.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Aug 23, 2010 - 07:26pm PT
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Amateurs use a Chisel, Fats.
Bring your fork, some varied pins, & a wrench.
Some instacrete for filler & some rock dust.
Or not. I ain't goin' up there, myself.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 23, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
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It wasn't clear to me from "wildone's" post whether they merely scoped out the route on rapell or whether all the bolts were placed on rapell. Which is it? Not that scoping out a route on rap is the best traditional style, but it's not the same as bolting the whole thing.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Aug 23, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
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Bottom half trad, top half rap bolted...or thereabouts.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 23, 2010 - 10:21pm PT
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bottom is trad because it uses nuts and cams, top half is sport because it has bolts and u use quikdraws etc
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dolomite_said
Gym climber
) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) . . . Buffering
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Sep 12, 2010 - 04:08am PT
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bottom is trad because it uses nuts and cams, top half is sport because it has bolts and u use quikdraws etc No dis GDavis - it still doesn't wash.
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wildone
climber
Troy, MT
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Sep 12, 2010 - 04:48am PT
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"I know what Whillans would have done in that pub.......... hit him.
Awwwwwwww, this thread is alive, now I have to do my FaceLift project with the chisel and tuning fork.
The evil one"
You sure love stirring sh#t, don't ya fat?
Jeff, I think being able to at least climb 5.9 should be a prerequisite to even mentioning a tuning fork or chisel on the internet. I can guarantee you Jeff, that if you were face to face with me in the real world, you'd be keeping your mouth shut. Jus' sayin'.
Truth is, some bad mother f*#kers are going up there this fall. A couple of other dudes who don't give a sh#t about the internet have been on it too. I was just talking with one tonight here in Anchorage, a climber of the best stock, both as a human and an athlete, whom I didn't know had even been up there. Nothing but compliments. In the end, it will get climbed. And then you'll know. But like dogtown said, it's so much easier to just sit there in your easy chair, rocking back and forth, talking sh#t about something you literally know less about than probably anything else in your day to day life. And maybe that's why you like it. Because it's easy. Easier than hiking in and seeing for yourself, that is.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 12, 2010 - 07:18am PT
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You can all STFU cause I have already done the second ascent clean
I had trouble finding the base but the route is totally over-rated. It starts out with some pitches that take a tiny amount of gear, 5.7 tops, and upper slab bolted pitches aren't overbolted at all, maybe just one or two per pitch. What's all the fuss about? Just go do it!
We were followed up the route by the third, fourth, fifth and sixth ascent party!
:-)
Karl
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wildone
climber
Troy, MT
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Sep 12, 2010 - 08:02am PT
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Thanks for putting the controversy to bed Karl. I really appreciate it.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Sep 12, 2010 - 09:35am PT
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2 years and 2700 posts later someone finally peels their ass out of their computer chair to actually go climb the thing.
You guys crack me up.
While Karl has the ball rolling.... Wings of Steel anyone??
Quote Karl Baba (for those too lazy to scroll back):You can all STFU cause I have already done the second ascent clean
I had trouble finding the base but the route is totally over-rated. It starts out with some pitches that take a tiny amount of gear, 5.7 tops, and upper slab bolted pitches aren't overbolted at all, maybe just one or two per pitch. What's all the fuss about? Just go do it!
We were followed up the route by the third, fourth, fifth and sixth ascent party!
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Sep 12, 2010 - 10:34am PT
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Sounds like they were on another route, eh? ;-)
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 12, 2010 - 11:54am PT
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I think it would be interesting to see Fattrad haul up to the top of Half Dome the 1,000 feet of rope and other gear it would take to chop the route.
Hey buddy, don't blow a valve on your effort going up! That's only a fraction of the work it will take to properly dispose of the route.
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nature
climber
Whereverland....
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Sep 12, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
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fatty... I'm with wildone on this. you and your tuning fork troll can end at any time. it serves nothing except to make people foam at the mouth.
it's really rather pathetic.
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nature
climber
Whereverland....
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Sep 12, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
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fatty, i know you didn't resurrect the thread. and I normally like your trolls. sure... it took me years to warm to them. but this particular troll isn't particularly endearing....
jus' sayin', bro...
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Sep 12, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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geez, Karl just demonstrated (with his description of Snake Dike) that we have a few folks here who should be saving up to buy farmland in the desert.
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nature
climber
Whereverland....
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Sep 12, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
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i've got 10 grand already set aside to start a tomato farm in the mohave.
should I grow cucumbers instead?
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Sep 12, 2010 - 02:45pm PT
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you want to be thinking rice: good desert crop.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 12, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
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Nature, Santa Cruz is famous for it's Maleno Creek Dry Farmed Tomatoes.
Now the Mojave... That would be some serious dry farming!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 13, 2010 - 06:19pm PT
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Geez, did I actually catch anyone with that? I wasn't even trying to disguise the farce of it!
Honored some of you think I could dream of climbing that thing. I'd have to do a rap/jumar ascent for sure!
;-)
Karl
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Sep 13, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
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Karl- it's so rare you troll and the STFU was priceless. I just couldn't resist ... LOL.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Sep 13, 2010 - 10:36pm PT
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Priceless!
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Feb 18, 2011 - 06:58pm PT
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I have no idea how I found this thread- 2 whole years later- but after reading the whole damn thing all I can say is wow.
This thing validates the st forum in ways that utterly mitigate all the other non-climbing detritus that dominates here.
Sorry to bump this back up after all this time, but I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who poured out their hearts here.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Feb 18, 2011 - 08:33pm PT
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+150 GNAR points.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Feb 19, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
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What a bunch of bull s h i t. Rap bolting half dome. I dont care who you are thats as lame as lame gets. F you and your route. Pretentious asses.
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Pass the Chongo, Chongo
Social climber
T*R
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F U C K ya gonamok.... doug robinson and sean jones are a bunch of pretentious as#@&%es
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Style police.....less talking more climbing. If you can put up 13 slab on lead go do it and then call everyone who can't an as#@&%e
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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It's 5.11 slab, the undercling pitch under the arch is 5.13 and I'd say a bit soft for that IMO.
The first half of the route is absolutely amazing climbing. Exposed, sustained, clean, varied climbing all around. It's like if someone stacked Astroman on top of the Rostrum and beefed up all the cruxes of each pitch a notch. Classic!!!
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wildone
climber
Troy, MT
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How'd you like the sloper lieback by the little sapling?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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God damn Salamanizer! Incredible. Please set up a new thread on your climb. It would be hugely interesting!! We are only b-e-g-g-i-n-g here!!
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hossjulia
Social climber
Eastside
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Ditto what Peter said, TR, please?
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Wtf? Salamanizer, you repeated this thing? Gotta show pics to prove it!
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Yeah; this has been known for awhile--- did the arch and that was the climb. Hearing about the party's impressions would/will be very very interesting. An Astroman with a Rostrum ontop of it. That is just huge news, folks!
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Awww, well I'll have to personally apologize for my hiatus in posting a TR. You see, there was only one camera on the ride and it was my partner Mikes. We had a bit of an unfortunate falling out and I haven't spoken with him in almost two years. Anyway, I never got any of the pictures and a TR without pictures is scarcely worth the pixels it's typed on.
If you really want to see the pictures, try emailing him. He posts on here once in a blue moon as Oh Yeah! He might throw down a TR for ya'll.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Thanks, Salamanizer, for filling in the details that kept you from posting a TR. Dreary stuff those broken relationships, and sadly familiar. I would have video of the FA to show too, but the dream of that film crashed and burned -- broken relationships -- even as the climb was becoming a brilliant reality. The gritty details are just not that interesting.
But please write more for us of your impression of the climbing. We have been so mired in this to-rap-bolt-or-not-to-be controversy, that the quality of the climbing itself has gotten a little lost. Already, in just a few lines, you've given us so much perspective:
It's like if someone stacked Astroman on top of the Rostrum and beefed up all the cruxes of each pitch a notch. Classic!!!
Like two of the most iconic long crack climbs in the Valley, only harder? Please, tell us more! Photos we've already got.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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WOW!!!!!!
Heck, even if you don't have photos, tell us about it, PLEASE!!!!!!!
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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Ditto what's been said.
A TR (even of a partial ascent) without photos would still be a welcome read.
Thanks!
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Roxy
Trad climber
CA Central Coast
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bump for a TR...
with sugar on top
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ec
climber
ca
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Oct 10, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
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Page 54, Climbing Magazine, October 2011
I'm curious how the bolts were placed on the 'crucial' pitch 2 of Tehipite Sanction...
They were out front mentioning that they rappelled in, but come on now...Rap bolted or not?
'Appears to me that a route 'had' to go with all the trouble to do a photo shoot and not to mention being sponsored.
'just an observation...
ec
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 22, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
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Has Growing Up yet seen a complete second ascent?
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Mar 22, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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Tarbuster, ec bump . . . couple rad dudz.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Mar 22, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
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Isn't there video of this route in the last masters of stone?
Edit- thanks Peter I was mis taken.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Mar 22, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
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Salamanizer's account, however offhanded, would be EVER SO interesting for us all. His ascent up to the arch must have been well worth a few comments, dontcha thunk? Puleeze grunt out something!?!
No Ryan, not that I know of. This route hasn't had a second ascent, only a second half-ascent, and the original ascent is not available so far. It was actually to be a movie but hasn't made it past raw footage, partly for lack of money and partly for lack of conviction.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Mar 22, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
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would love to hear about the 2nd ascent if it went. Seems like an amazing climb.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Mar 22, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
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Vitaliy, Salamanizer's is NOT a second ascent. We understand it is the crack climb up to the arch's end or thereabouts and then retreat begins the slab climbing begins. Over a thousand feet of (rapbolted) rock still remained above this party as they exited.
Furthermore, it is not really the case in the strict sense, that there has been a first ascent yet either, after all there has not been a continuous ascent of the route.
So much would change if we had a few ascents of the thing and people came back and shared their opinions with us.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Happy Boulders
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Mar 23, 2013 - 10:49am PT
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Shawn's pics are fantastic
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Mar 23, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
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This is one of my favorite threads on supertopo
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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So six years now and the thing still hasn't had a real ascent?
I thought the justification for the rap bolting was to have a route that people would do, as opposed to S Belle?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I thought the justification for the rap bolting was to have a route that people would do, as opposed to S Belle?
Yeah, but now there's such a stigma attached to it that people capable of doing it are afraid of being labeled sport weenies, or rap bolt lovers, or something; while all the sport weenies who wouldn't care about the label, can't do it.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Would somebody mind summarizing this thread, or summarizing the history of the route? Has the route been done? Seems like people would be all over it, falling and trying.......
Now that the Dawn Wall is finished......
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Bottom half done, ground up. Tons of hard climbing.
Top half done, top down.
It has all been free climbed, but not in a single ascent.
Big stink up about ethics. Reason was to have a safer route, compared to Southern Belle.
I think that's about the short of it.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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I thought the justification for the rap bolting was to have a route that people would do, as opposed to S Belle?
It is not a fact that it hasn't seen a second or third ascent. People might have gone to the top but not posted about it anywhere, especially not on this forum. I do not see many climbers who currently climb 5.13 or 5.12 here, even though there are a few...
Basically it is not known if it had a second ascent.
Continuous, partial or wall style, I would love to see some photos of it! If I had the skill to repeat it I would go this weekend. Hell, I would skip work and go tomorrow! Without giving a sh#t about being labeled as a "sport climber," "rap bolt lover," or any other ridiculous put down that some loser on a forum can come up with.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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^^^ I thought I had heard it getting repeated?
No matter, as the giant monoliths of Half Dizzle and El Capone have seen the majority of drama from cali climbers anyway. Who needs TLC?!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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V, the word would have gotten out if it had been successfully done. People just can't keep their custard holes shut about something like that.
It took about 5 minutes for us to hear about Honnold and Stanhope doing S Belle.
Heck we hear about every ten minutes taken off the Nose, the first female ascent of this, the fastest ascent of XYZ.
The first continuous ascent of this thing is news, no matter what we might think of the FA style.
I seriously doubt it has been done.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nobody would climb if they couldn't talk about it.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Not true. Maybe not risk their lives, but they would climb.....because it's there......because it's awe inspiring and it's beautiful.
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cultureshock
Trad climber
Mountain View
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This thread needs more photos.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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This thread needs more photos.
Yeah, even if we have to rap down to get them!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Heck we hear about every ten minutes taken off the Nose, the first female ascent of this, the fastest ascent of XYZ.
What if Salamizer did not say anything about his attempt when he climbed half of it? No one would know. He climbs more than 99% of people here, is a member here, but posts TRs only once in a blue moon. Most likely because he is not a pro athlete and does not need to be a "first gemale to do X" or "first male with asthma to do X" to keep his sponsors happy. The only reason I post about some of the things I do here is because I started doing that since I started climbing. Reports of other people inspired me to get out and do some of the things that seem interesting, so I wanted to do my share of 'giving back' in a way. But many people don't post. But I guess I do agree with you survival, if this thing had a complete second ascent it would probably be known.
Cultureshock!!! Get stronger! I will go belay you!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Yeah, even if we have to rap down to get them!
For the win!
V, get stronger! I will belay and jug!
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MisterE
climber
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Yeah, even if we have to rap down to get them!
You just know Clint has tons of 'em, but all we get to see are new anchors, NTTAWWT...
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Rudbud
Gym climber
Grover Beach, CA
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Where's the topo for this thing? any body got one?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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There's a topo on this thread somewhere.
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bob
climber
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Who needs a topo? It's a line!!!! At least until it turns into a face climb, but it sounds like follow the bolts once that happens.
Bob J.
EDIT: ^^^^ Wow this came from me. Its sad to me when someone asks a serious question and that's what I come up with. Sad. Im better than that.
So, with all due respect, I give you my apologies Redbud. No excuse.
Bob Jensen
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Rudbud
Gym climber
Grover Beach, CA
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just want to know where the 5.13 climbing is at, is it slab or cracks? topo would help with that right?
unknown
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Survival, Not quite true, your post January 9 just above. The route is not entirely free. Up in the arch and just afterward, it really blanks out and goes A0 in spots on two pitches there.
See topo detail here, from Ken Y's post
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 10, 2014 - 12:58am PT
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Rudbud and others, If you go upthread, you will find a full topo.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 10, 2014 - 01:27am PT
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klaus, who cares if you chip holds or not? When you nail the f*#k out of a seam or some expanding flake that is likely to fall off with more nailing, you also are breaking rock. Cheeer up! Nail cracks, chip holds, have a blast out there!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 10, 2014 - 01:59am PT
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Chipping and saying it was like that all along to say you free climbed it is a lie.
Agreed. Do you think he chipped something up there? It wasn't me who was climbing it, so I have no idea what was done, but it seems like majority of the route is a pretty cool free climb with a bolt short bolt ladder. And yes, not a full free climb if bolt ladder was not freed.
Why so grumpy? You have a baby coming! Cheer up! Do some chiseling, do some chipping. Take a belay test, join a climbing gym! :)
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jan 10, 2014 - 03:03am PT
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Vitaliy,
I think Klaus is trying to draw a line in the sand that says don't let hype about your route be published as if it were a free climb, because putting drill to stone has the same kind of impact as a sculpted hold. It has precedent setting value. Compound this with the idea that maybe Half Dome was the last formation to establish long hard routes ground up. Well it's like giving up the ghost.
So if the spirit of style is dead, why not change all styles at all grades.
Would Yosemite be the same?
Just some thoughts.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 10, 2014 - 06:01am PT
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Klaus seems a bit uptight and yes nailing is chipping and the Nose as well as a whole bucket full of other classics have their share of bolt ladders. Who is to say that this can not be free climbed as is without chipping? Has anyone even tried to climb it or do you guys just whine and cry about a rt you will never even get on?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 10, 2014 - 11:26am PT
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Better yet, go get on one of his "lines" next time you're in the Ditch and then come back here and post up. BADASS BOLD MOFO
When I get a little suicidal, maybe. But then I think I will be into putting up own dangerous routes, not repeating other people's.
I think there is a difference between badass and lucky that some giant flake he decided to nail didn't blow and cut his rope. I do not see it as badass, the chief.
I think Klaus is trying to draw a line in the sand that says don't let hype about your route be published as if it were a free climb, because putting drill to stone has the same kind of impact as a sculpted hold.
Klaus never put a bolt in? What about all the bolt ladders on all the aid climbs in Yosemite? Putting drill and hammer to the stone and f*#king up stone is what aid climbers been doing for years, and do so now. Ground up or not, you are still f*#king up stone by bashing the sh#t out of it. I do understand the difference between Southern Belle and this route though. Difference in the style of ascent is obvious. But I will abstain from talking sh#t about this route because First Ascentionist chose the style of his choice, and I personally have not put up ANY routes in the valley to critique his choice. Klaus and Coz are of course qualified to do so and have their own opinion...
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 10, 2014 - 11:39am PT
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this is not a free climb.
Yes, it's a 60 foot aid route with 2,500 feet of annoying free climbing on it. Sounds pretty damn much like a free route to me. Sheesh....
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Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
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Jan 10, 2014 - 11:56am PT
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Still waiting for my transfer flight.
What up Rick!
"bolts murdered the impossible" or people just became scared.
I get scared...
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Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
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Jan 10, 2014 - 12:44pm PT
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I gotta go they're boarding zones 2 and three. Heehehehe
Thanks Rick.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 10, 2014 - 01:59pm PT
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Personally, I'll stay on Klaus's side of the line.
Sorry, I don't usually form opinions so fast. Especially because I was not on the Growing Up ascent, I did not walk a mile in their shoes, and you did not neither. I am sure there were reasons to do what they did. Not everyone has to live by same rules as Klaus lives, or have the same values as coz, you, or me. Climbing is a very personal activities and people have reasons. Personally, I have A LOT of respect four Doug Robinson and know Sean Jones put up a lot of good routes out there. If those two think it is justified to put up the route in the style that they did, I do not see why there would be such a big stink. Anyway, hope everyone does something really fun this weekend...if I personally had the skills to repeat this route I would in a heartbeat.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Jan 10, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
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Sounds like there's some fancy footwork to be had in an amazing place up there.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jan 10, 2014 - 10:45pm PT
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Before I first tried climbing Growing Up, I thought the top down thing was kind of a lame copout. While I was on the route I quickly ceased to give a sh#t.
And for the life of me, I still can't bring myself to actually give a rats ass.
Thing is, its a great route and no one was ever going to put it in ground up. It doesn't go ground up, it's too blank. That's not to say it could never be freed. Who knows, some people are bad ass, but it's not going to go in some monumental ground up effort. It's not Sothern Belle. Same game, but not the same field, na' mean? The ground up game looses it's appeal when you run into a long section of AO. Who was really going to go up there, find that, and still press on risking their ass for a route that doesn't go? No one, that's who. So who honestly could find the energy in themselves to actually care how someone put a route up on a piece of stone that was destined to remain blank for all eternity?
Whatever, the climbing bad ass. But it's not a route for mortals. You'd need to be far above par to fire that thing off in a day. We made it to pitch 13, and that took us two days. I know of a very capable team that went up on it about a month ago. They made it to pitch 6. The bottom half is a worthy goal in of it's self.
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Einstein
climber
|
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Jan 10, 2014 - 10:50pm PT
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So six years now and the thing still hasn't had a real ascent?
I thought the justification for the rap bolting was to have a route that people would do, as opposed to S Belle?
What a fecking idiot! You think you are somehow a big man for dredging this thread up? Doug Robinson and Sean Jones are better human beings than your sorry ass will ever be.
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WBraun
climber
|
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Jan 10, 2014 - 11:18pm PT
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The South face of Half Dome is one of the most beautiful rock faces on the planet.
It deserves the best .....
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 11, 2014 - 12:26am PT
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Thanks tons on that Salamanizer! Very important hearing your impressions, experiences and opinions on this. I really agree with you too. For others, Pitch #13 is at the end of the arch and the end of the trad section of climbing. Above is the massive section of top-down bolted free-climbing.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jan 11, 2014 - 12:31am PT
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Not everyone has to live by same rules as Klaus lives, or have the same values as coz, you, or me. Climbing is a very personal activities and people have reasons.
Quite right that there is no enforcement that prevents particular climbing choices of behavior. As food for thought, however, is it workable to universalize the notion that all of climbing's impactful activities (f*#king up the rock in whatever way we select) can be merely personal activities with personal reasons? IMHO, the answer is no. Would I retrobolt the BY? Would I replace all copperheads with bolts? Why not, if we have already damaged the rock, do it up fully, right? There are self regulating ideas, but there is no bible to hand them down from gen to gen. It's not absolute. It's just a handful of goofballs, curmudgeons and back water doofusas saying "Hey, maybe out of all the top down routes across the entire U.S. we don't top down this one iconic symbol of rock climbing.
The Chief is probably right, the line may not exist in any tangible sense anymore. Unfortunate in many cases. But great fun in other areas. The point in raising it in forums and threads like this is only to say 'there is another way' and serious thought should be put into places like Yosemite and Pinnacles.
Salamanizer is right too. When climbing it, and maxing out on the difficulty, who cares about how it went it. That's our own personal style in the moment. Just send!
The call out for me, regardless of the difficulty of any route, is setting out some rules for ourselves that dictate 'how' we will have an impact. In hard, aid maybe it's total hole counts, or total head placements, no ehooks, etc. In free climbing it's not resorting to aid. In bolting, maybe it's preserving adventure and going ground up. Or maybe at loose rock areas, it's about cleaning the loose up as best you can, and making sure each clip is perfect. And yes, forests get trashed out, and ATVs may wreck the desert, etc. But within the game of climbing "how" things get down matters because it does have an impact.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 11, 2014 - 01:59am PT
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Jim, the topo shows 15 points of A0 (bolts all). This is not a new piece of info at all, though.
Yeah it is ironic for sure and part of the whole foggy situation.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jan 11, 2014 - 02:36am PT
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There's a 60 foot rap bolted aid ladder in the middle of it and no one here sees the irony
I get what you're saying, but I find it hard to agree with all of it. Every route is different and acceptable ethics can change dramatically in just a matter of feet in some areas. Nobody can sensibly argue that top down isn't somewhat acceptable in certain situations and places.
Yes, the South Face is sacred ground, but it's mostly impenetrable. Anyone who's ever touched it quickly realizes that. There's miles of blank ground that will never see chalk marks even by the most burly of monkeys. Not because they couldn't cheat their way to it, just because they couldn't make a move even if they did.
What Growing Up is, is a good effort that abruptly ended at an impossible impasse. What should they have done? Stopped there and left the upper half to fester in the minds of those who dream it might be possible, only to have someone finally drill a bolt ladder to nowhere in a noble effort? Or perhaps drill the same bolt ladder to finally free the upper section in a balls out mirror image of Southern Belle resulting in a route that sees few to no accents and goes at exactly the same grade it does now?
Where I differ in opinion is this route would never go ground up. And in my mind that justifies exploration. Just as a chossy face is going to attract few ground up bids from those who are capable of climbing it. Look at Owens. Imagine if only ground up were acceptable there. What a shitty little locals only, lonely sh#t pile that place would be today. Top down made it into a destination. But only because ground up was impossible on most of it's routes.
The South Face of Half Dome is like this. I agree, it should be held to the highest standard, as most areas should be as well. However, this route was never going to go ground up... Never! So what harm is there in exploring top down on something that would otherwise never be? Nothing else will ever pass by within eyeshot of those bolts. It took nothing from anyone. No ones experience will be diminished or taken away by the line of bolts up there. It's not as if someone, somehow someday would have a chance in hell of climbing that upper section ground up. Not unless they were willing to commit to leaving behind the same AO bolt ladder the top down crew left.
And all this coming from one of the biggest ethics Nazis around... Who'd of thunk it?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 11, 2014 - 04:18am PT
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Hey Einstooge, I never said they weren't good men. You think I'm the only one who has questioned the style here?
Much better men than you have questioned this route in one way or another.
So eat a bag of dicks.
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clinker
Trad climber
California
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Jan 11, 2014 - 08:37am PT
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Get Kennedy to chop all routes that weren't put up onsight-freesolo. That is the true pure standard.
Oh I forgot the coveted first butt naked winter ascent.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2014 - 10:57am PT
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Salamanizer -- "Where I differ in opinion is this route would never go ground up."
They said that about "Bachar Yerian" originally before anyone ever tried it.
A few were eyeballing it besides John.
They were ready to rap bolt it.
lol
And then history came.
Just like on the second ascent of "Crimson Cringe".
Jardine said you'll never be able to do it without "friends".
So Ray offered his only rack of friends in existence.
Kauk said no way Jose and we'll prove you wrong ......
Never say never.
Just do what you have to ......
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jan 11, 2014 - 11:41am PT
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I wanna be able to shoot bolts in from my motel rooms private veranda!
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overwatch
climber
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Jan 11, 2014 - 11:47am PT
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Clever and hilarious!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 11, 2014 - 11:50am PT
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Has anyone actually gone up and repeated this thing? Wonder what the verdict is per those having the actual experience of being up there and sending as opposed to the rest of us down here milling around the base.
JL
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 11, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
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Largo, you are not reading the thread. Check out Salamanizer's posts just above. He has been to the top of Pitch #13, the end of the arch and the trad climbing, where the top-down bolting begins and the tiny bit of A0 is located.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jan 11, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
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They said that about "Bachar Yerian" originally before anyone ever tried it.
I know Werner, and I'm on board with that perspective. The difference is, that's the Bachar Yerian and this routes section in question is an overhanging, impenetrable swath of smooth glacial polish, which was tried. It's the end of the road up there, no "maybe" about it. I mean, they rap bolted it. If there was a way, they'd have found it. I think what they were trying to do was avoid the bolt ladder at all costs. It didn't pan out, so they finished the rest of the route in a more convenient style since they were already down there.
Copout, yes! Modern atrocity, no! Likely style to be repeated on the South Face, I doubt it.
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katiebird
climber
yosemite
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Jan 11, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
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Being curious about this route myself, Ben Ditto and I climbed our way up to the 15th pitch in a day. We freed all of the dihedral, which is some of the best climbing in the Valley, managed to just about free the 14th pitch and were faced with a very blank 15th pitch. Both pitches are for sure freeable but will go most likely at hard 5.13 possibly even 5.14. A lot of time and an open mind are required to do so however.
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tbailey
Trad climber
canoga park
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Jan 11, 2014 - 03:43pm PT
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Everybody needs to " Shut up and climb "
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 11, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
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Good post Katie.
What kind of an "open mind" are you speaking of?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
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What kind of an "open mind" are you speaking of?
She's saying just climb the route and don't let all the bolting controversy get in the way.
It' an awesome location and once you're there all this bullsh!t here starts to fall away.
It's how most people actually climb these days.
Except you supertopo type people ?????
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jan 11, 2014 - 05:24pm PT
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I just want to thank everyone for sharing their very important opinions.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Jan 13, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
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Wow,
Thanks for the report, Katie.
What a day!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 13, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
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Food for thought....
Every free route on El Cap has had bolts added, and most of them were placed on rap either from the top or from a belay anchor.
Nobody bitches about the bolts on El Cap.
Basically all stance drilled routes are slab routes. You take the stances that mother nature gives you. We were all into death routes in the 80's. Nobody is into death routes now.
There are probably a good dozen or so free routes on HD that could be discovered on that wall. The only way to stitch the line together is on rap, top down.
I talked to Doug and he told me that he never saw a power drill while he was helping out, so stop the slander on that.
We have a crag in Oklahoma that is pretty much a gigantic slab. The routes were all put in ground up, and many of them have jingus runouts. Almost nobody climbs them. The guy who did most of the FA's consented to retro-bolting a few routes, and now those are the only routes people do. Climbing has just changed. Few people look at it as worth their life to try something. It isn't that the new climbers aren't capable; they are better than we were. They just don't understand why on Earth there are fifty foot runouts on 5.10 moves. These people can climb circles around my best moment ever, but I was brought up on those runouts and didn't know any better.
I've changed my opinion of this route. After the initial argument, we have been reading all about Tommy Caldwell's free routes on El Cap, and those of the Huber Brothers. The way Tommy figured out where the free line is on the Dawn Wall was by swinging all over the place and finding holds where the route could go. Then he put in bolts for pro (although he firmly did NOT put bolts on aid routes other than putting a fatty in a rivet hole).
It is really the only way to go about it now. We have been waiting 20 years or more for the next Southern Belle, and nobody has found one. There is a shitload of rock back there, and routes WILL be put in from the top down. Trying them ground up will lead to dead ends, etc. The only practical way is to scout the line on rappel, swinging around and scouting out a line that will go. No way could you do this ground up.
Geez, I remember doing the Nose the year after the FFA, and the Changing Corners pitch sprouted shiny new 3/8" bolts. Even the last pitch had every single one of Harding's bolts replaced. Yep, there were 3/8" bolts every 4 or 5 feet.
Coz and Kurt Smith did the Muir ground up, Skinner and Piana did the Salathe ground up. As far as I know, all of the others were scouted top down. If Growing Up were on El Cap, nobody would care.
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Jan 13, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
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Some good input, imo. Base. Good to hear different opinions/ perspectives on the subject.
Pretty "sweeping" comments though.
Climbing has just changed. Few people look at it as worth their life to try something. It isn't that the new climbers aren't capable; they are better than we were. They just don't understand why on Earth there are fifty foot runouts on 5.10 moves. These people can climb circles around my best moment ever, but I was brought up on those runouts and didn't know any better.
I don't agree. Alot of climbers out there (here) still willing to risk for reward. Respecting the line. Keeping it real yo.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jan 13, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
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Trying them ground up will lead to dead ends, etc
This presupposes an outcome. Part of the GU tradition is that the outcome is not predetermined, FWIW.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 13, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
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Quite right that there is no enforcement that prevents particular climbing choices of behavior. As food for thought, however, is it workable to universalize the notion that all of climbing's impactful activities (f*#king up the rock in whatever way we select) can be merely personal activities with personal reasons? IMHO, the answer is no. Would I retrobolt the BY? Would I replace all copperheads with bolts? Why not, if we have already damaged the rock, do it up fully, right? There are self regulating ideas, but there is no bible to hand them down from gen to gen. It's not absolute.
Munge, I agree with you entirely. BUT I disagree with the level of criticism the FA party got. For one, Doug Robinson made the FIRST CLEAN ascent of Half Dome. He was one of the fathers of the Clean Revolution. His actions have saved rock. Saving rock is a big part of who he is. I believe IF there was a way to avoid rap bolting the short bolt ladder, they would do it. In my opinion, they took the top down approach for the upper section of the climb primarily to save rock. If they completed the first half of the wall, as they did, and let it stand, there might me another party who would decide to continue over the blank bulge via a much longer bolt ladder into nowhere. By completing the upper portion from the top they might have eliminated over bolting, and maximized possible free climbing (big part of who is Sean Jones as I understand). Not sure if that was their primary reason or not. In any case, if their goal was to put up an amazing climb that has decent protection and very hard free climbing, they have done it. If a figure like DR, considering things he HAS accomplished in his life, thought it was ok to do, it is fine with me.
I love the OP for being opinionated and expressing his views, but I think if he had something negative to say it would be wiser to talk about it with the FA team in person. This subject is way more complex than top down vs ground up and people like DR don’t deserve such criticism from a bunch of nobodies who have not done a fraction of things that he has done for the community.
In addition, people who have done a part of this climb stated it is incredible and had nothing negative to say about the way it was put up. Hmmmmm.
We were all into death routes in the 80's. Nobody is into death routes now.
After they watched that Hank Caylor video! LOL It is fantastic. Can't get enough.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Part of the GU tradition is that the outcome is not predetermined, FWIW.
COMPLETE BULLSH#T! On walls if you have enough food/gear the outcome is always a 'success' unless you are a complete noob or the weather comes in. Blank section? Bolt/rivet ladder! Throw in a few hook moves in between, wooooo we have a A3! Crack system peters out? We do a pendulum into another one! No problem. Nailing on walls is hard work, but success is almost always guaranteed. Unless you do something A4-5 where if you blow it, you die. But when was the last time you heard someone getting killed while putting up a A4-5 pitch? People that do, usually know exactly how much they can get away with, and make their own rules. So I think putting up a FA is much easier than repeating someone's climb of high danger/difficulty where you have to work with what you have (not drill more holes etc).
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TMayse
climber
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Jan 13, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
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We have a crag in Oklahoma that is pretty much a gigantic slab. The routes were all put in ground up, and many of them have jingus runouts. Almost nobody climbs them. The guy who did most of the FA's consented to retro-bolting a few routes, and now those are the only routes people do. Climbing has just changed. Few people look at it as worth their life to try something. It isn't that the new climbers aren't capable; they are better than we were. They just don't understand why on Earth there are fifty foot runouts on 5.10 moves. These people can climb circles around my best moment ever, but I was brought up on those runouts and didn't know any better. Shhhhh.... Don't talk about this place Base... I enjoy having the place to myself...
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 13, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
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We are talking about a 2000 foot slab. There are no more crack climbs on HD.
SAC, yes, there are some climbers who aren't intimidated by dangerous routes, but from my experience, not many. I know people who can do 5.12 in their sleep who won't do some of the 1981 runout slab routes here. They just won't do it.
That doesn't mean that they aren't good climbers, it is just that slabs aren't exactly in style, and by their nature, stance drilled routes are almost always on a slab. You have to drop both hands to drill. Stance drilling with a power drill takes no time, in comparison.
Anyway, I see very few people doing routes that all of the mere mortals used to run laps on BITD. I couldn't sniff 5.13 in my dreams, but I've done routes that 5.13 climbers aren't interested in.
It is all about caves now. Super overhanging is the style. The type of climbing that Caldwell and Jorgensen are doing on the Dawn wall is downright freaky. If you have ever done an aid route through that area, they are freeing stuff that was impossible to even nail. Since even vertical rock is now called a slab, not many people know how to climb on those micro edges. I've read that they wear out a pair of shoes in a day, and the weather has to be pretty cold to even attempt it.
What they are doing is proud and amazing. The old runout routes were also proud and amazing. I'm just saying that if people don't get their panties in a bunch, there will be new routes up the south face of HD. I hate to say it, but it is far better to scout it top down in order to find where a route will go. Old farts might not like it, but nobody has retro-bolted Southern Belle and likely never will. It is a proud route. They know that.
It is inconsistent to give the OK for bolts placed top down on El Cap and then throw a fit about it on HD. The times have changed.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 13, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
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Whoa, never saw the Hankster highlight reel!! Good Find!
I've done MUCH crazy STUPID sh#t too, but certainly didn't have to pay the same body bills that Hank has.
Some of those may feel EXTRA good when you hit 60 or so, eh Hank? Keep on poppin' bro.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Jan 13, 2014 - 03:08pm PT
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It is inconsistent to give the OK for bolts placed top down on El Cap and then throw a fit about it on HD.
This argument seems to presuppose that rap-bolting on El Cap is okay. For many, and I'm that group, it's not okay. But it's happened nonetheless. Not much point in arguing it as the genie can't go back in the bottle. But that doesn't mean that every other cliff should welcome rap-bolts or that I'm inconsistent to speak against it when it comes to HD.
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Ham and Eggs
Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt Cook Village
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Jan 13, 2014 - 03:14pm PT
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Could only imagine if this were done by a duo of hotshot Superhuman Brothers
Thought they were firm voices against big lines of bolts at a particular Mexican destination some years back. Emailed around for a bunch of support, offering to go down there and chop them at 'own expense'.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 13, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
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It is inconsistent to give the OK for bolts placed top down on El Cap and then throw a fit about it on HD.
I'm not saying it hasn't been done, but exactly where has rap bolting been done on El Cap?
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jan 13, 2014 - 03:41pm PT
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IMHO: There's plenty of room for rap-down bolting shenanigans on the huge unclimbed East Face of Mt. Watkins, rather than on Half Dome. Some drop of water bolt ladder sieges would yield more interesting results straight up from the huge eyes that Scott Burke went out to explore in the 80s. What's more there are also some traditional ground up stanced bolted lines out there too and nobody seems to be doing them. What's the matter rap-bolters? Two new routes out there in 35 years and no one taking up the gauntlet for some 5.13/14 drop of water lines? Lots of work no doubt, but rap bolters and siege climbers love to work and work and work. Spending a whole summer out there on rappel would be good for the soul (i.e. sole) me thinks.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 13, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
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Let me ask the panel what would have happened had that been two unknowns, not local to the valley who rapped that in?
Interesting. When people apply for a job, what does an employer do first? They look at your resume. What have you done? Are you qualified for the project this company is working on? Makes sense, no?
People that put up many lines in a place like Yosemite gain credibility. And this should be considered. Take Coz as an example, the only reason people tolerated some of the remarks from him is because he has accomplished a lot in the past. And exactly why Wings of Steel team was harassed – they did not have the resume (credibility) to drill on a sacred rock like El Cap.
So you people are saying we shouldn’t assess if people qualify for something by looking at what they have done in the past? Funny. Well common sense says past should be looked at before making an informed opinion.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jan 13, 2014 - 05:52pm PT
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didn't robinson and the pullharder guys power drill the strassman memorial route?
What, and you think Mike Strassman, who once wrote a guidebook naming, rating, and claiming routes that no one had ever climbed, wouldn't approve of that sort of thing? Methinks a true Strassman memorial would be a bit of a dodgy, shadowed, slander strewn affair.
It's a damned shame that man is dead and gone though, we're all a wee bit poorer for his loss.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jan 14, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
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There is footage of this route in the last masters of stone video that was made.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 14, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
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Coz and Kurt Smith did the Muir ground up, Skinner and Piana did the Salathe ground up. As far as I know, all of the others were scouted top down. Ever heard of The Prophet?
How about The Secret Passage?
I didn't think so. :-)
Read about them here if you'd like:
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Eclint/yos/longhf.htm#theprophet
And in general, you are comparing a few free variations on existing El Cap routes with a 1000' rap bolted slab. They are not very similar in my view.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 14, 2014 - 02:16pm PT
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It is inconsistent to give the OK for bolts placed top down on El Cap and then throw a fit about it on HD.
Base104, I'm still waiting to hear which routes on El Cap were drilled Top Down?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 14, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
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Luke,
So you guys freed the tension traverse at the end of the arch? Looks like P13 on the pitch above. Nice work!!
I'm pretty sure she meant p13 was the one which was "just about free".
p14 already went free at 5.10c.
P.S. Thanks for the report, Katie.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jan 14, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
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Just wondering if it would be fun/worthwhile to give the route a go at 5.12a A0
Yes you could, and it would be highly worthwhile to do so. In fact, you could do it at like 5.9 AO if you really wanted to.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 21, 2014 - 07:38pm PT
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Base104, I'm still waiting to hear which routes on El Cap were drilled Top Down?
I assume that the free variation to the last pitch of the Nose was drilled top down. There certainly isn't an aid pitch there. There are no stances, either.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 21, 2014 - 10:04pm PT
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OMGHAHAHAHHHHHAHAHAHAHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAA THAT CAYLOR VIDEO IS WORTH THE PRICE OF ADMISSION X10 LOLOLOLOL!!!!!
THANKS FOR THAT VITALY! WHOMEVER PUT THAT TOGETHER, YOU RULE!!!! OH MY LORD!!!
HAHAHAHAHA
Please don't ever let my children watch that. They'll get "ideas"....haha!
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Jan 21, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
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In fact, you could do it at like 5.9 AO if you really wanted to.
I saw that - I'm game. Is there a sign at the top of the rap route?
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Jan 21, 2014 - 11:02pm PT
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The other crack on the same arch was successfully linked with a face climb above, and to the summit (Southern Belle).
That crack was FAed separately by someone else, then came the FA of the whole route, and finaly the FFA.
It was bad judgement on the part of the GU team to think that lightning would strike twice - and the westerly crack would just magically transition to face moves, and summit glory.
The simple fact that DR stepped back from his association with the route, his footage and or writing(?) of it speaks volumes.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Jan 22, 2014 - 12:27am PT
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The Hank Caylor video on the previous page is the absolute best thing in this thread!
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