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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Apr 20, 2006 - 11:26am PT
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Wow, that's scary. I knew not to clip two pockets side by side. That's rather obvious. But I always assumed (with out thinking it through evidently) that as long as I could see my biner cleanly in the end pocket it didn't matter what I did with short clipping into other pockets too. I was wrong. Maybe time to get one of the metolius thingies that have the chain style stitching.
Glad you put the video up and glad BD made it.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Apr 20, 2006 - 11:55am PT
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The Metolius thing (PAS) is wildly overpriced... but I bought one anyway. Turns out it's great and I use it all the time. Sometimes I can almost trick myself into believing it's worth what they charge for it, usually at a sketchy hanging belay or at my computer after watching little videos like that one.
--->bob
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lazide
Big Wall climber
Bay Area, CA
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Apr 20, 2006 - 12:41pm PT
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ditto on the PAS. At first I figured it was just a gimmick, but once I tried it I was sold. Awesome on walls, moving around on fixed lines, rapping with heavy pigs - any situation where you need a 'bomber' connection point you can move around without becoming totally disconnected and adjustability is key.
I used to used to use two full strength 'leashes', but the PAS with two (keylock) lockers has them beat hands down. (less CF'y, lighter, and just as versatile).
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Gramicci
Social climber
Ventura
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Apr 20, 2006 - 01:12pm PT
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Good Video, Thanks.
IMO, just use a full runner or quick draw you would have probably had with you anyway. Kind of redundant having all this extra gear with you, clutters up the what should be a simple rack for free climbing. If you can stayed tied in (always the best) use a clove hitch for adjustability. Eh?
These things are great for aid though or at the bivy.
my 2 cents since I just saw guys doing a face climb with a full rack of friends and hexes. oh ya, with a top rope too.
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kimgraves
Trad climber
Brooklyn, NY
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Apr 20, 2006 - 02:03pm PT
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My 5 year old grandson is going to love this "magic" trick! Scary! I too use a PAS.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 20, 2006 - 02:19pm PT
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I do two things to prevent this:
1) I always use two biners, a main locker that's always at the end (see below) and a second normal biner (it's the one I keep my shoes on, so I always have it on my harness when I'm climbing) for height adjustment.
2) my main locking biner is always girth-hitched to the last loop. so even if that biner did get clipped to a second loop, I'd be safe.
The PAS seems like too much of a mess for me. plus all those single points of failure wig me out...
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ADK
Trad climber
Reno, Nevada
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Apr 20, 2006 - 02:22pm PT
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Ive felt daisy chains were dangerous for years. On top of their inherent danger is the fact that theyre preferred gear for sport climbers. They should force consumers to watch this video.
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JR@METOLIUS
Big Wall climber
BEND, OR
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Apr 20, 2006 - 05:39pm PT
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We were happy to see the BD daisy chain video clip which so succinctly illustrates the daisy chain misuse issue. Metolius developed the PAS (Personal Anchor System) about three years ago for exactly this reason. For years we had seen this and other misuse problems associated with daisy chains and decided to develop a product which would alleviate potential disasters. Although the PAS is a simple looking product, we spent about two years designing and testing various webbing combinations, lengths, and strengths.
With regard to the pricing response about the PAS, one must ask the obvious question. “Is my life worth $29.95?” We feel at least some of you out there think so! Sure there are cheaper alternatives that work, however knowing the exact strength of all items in your climbing gear chain is of paramount importance. In other words, there should be no unknowns in the safety chain as the consequences are far too serious.
Why does the PAS cost what it does? Yes, we too feel it is quite a lot and we were initially concerned about the price. However at the end of the day we decided to do it anyway and provide the service to people who want to eliminate unknowns in their equipment chain. We are very pleased with the results and have received a ton of positive feedback from climbers who have switched over to the PAS.
Standard webbing isn't strong enough to achieve the strengths needed. Therefore we had to design a custom webbing and order 5000 yds (per color) of it just to start the project (that’s a fair amount of PASs). It requires an extra heavy duty nylon/dyneema blend (16mm) as the loops are in contact with one another throughout the chain. This system creates a lot of friction (when under load) and needs a very robust webbing to achieve the strength number. 4050 lbf. is the PAS's rated strength, stronger than the stringent UIAA harness standard of 3600 lbf. There are 6 hot cut parts that are combined with a total of 62 bar tacks and a box of straight stitching. Plus one small label. Then it gets inspected and every tack and stitch is recounted. Once it passes inspection it goes onto a well thought out piece of packaging which is die-cut and specifically shows how the PAS is used. Without the packaging we felt like people wouldn't understand the reasons why daisy chains were being misused. The packaging also shows how the PAS is to be used correctly. At the end of the day our margin is quite low, but we feel like it is an important enough item that we needed to do it regardless of how much we actually made. We hope this answers a few of the questions you all have had.
Cheers,
Metolius Climbing
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Apr 20, 2006 - 06:07pm PT
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Metolius Speaks! I was just thinking the other day about how you guys were the only major company I never saw have any kind of presence on the boards.
Thanks for the explanation. I've used the PAS and liked it, just not enough to pony up the dough, as I don't carry a daisy for free climbing anyway. My main objection was that the pockets are too far apart to use as an aid daisy. I know that's not what it's for, but it would solve some of the problems with regular daisies. I guess more and smaller pockets would make it cost even more, but I dunno, I'd buy it. We pay twice as much for good aiders as cheap ones, no reason why daisies shouldn't be about the same.
I suppose that a lot of the aid community has gone over to adjustables, but dang it I like my daisies and my fifi.
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Sir Run-it-out
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Apr 20, 2006 - 06:13pm PT
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Sometimes I wonder whether we take these things to the extreme.
Does anyone know of any real world failures by this mechanism? If so, how many loops were blown? All runners are held together with bar tacks, albeit some have more than others, so blaming a weakness on the presence of bar tacks is a bit deceptive.
One could also show a video of the sling itself separating, and then say, "this is why you should always use TWO slings!"
It is possible to over-engineer a product. It doesn't have to be perfect, merely good enough. Of course, the real question is what is "good enough." Hence the question, what does it take to blow out the stitching between the loops on a daisy, and has this ever happened in real life?
Also, asking the question "Is my life worth $29.95?" is so jejune. If that's how the price point is set, it should be marketed at a significantly higher level.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Apr 20, 2006 - 09:33pm PT
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I think the idea is that you double clip as shown in the video. You then only have yourself on belay with one daisy. You partner then runs it 10 feet up w/ no pro and whips directly onto you - fall factor 2. That might blow the bar tacks.
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lazide
Big Wall climber
Bay Area, CA
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Apr 20, 2006 - 09:47pm PT
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It really isn't THAT hard to blow a bartack out of a daisy - the pockets are rated at what, 4-5kn? Would you belay off a single #3 stopper? (they have about the same rating!)
Chris Harmston ran some tests on daisies awhile back, and he found that sometimes when the tacking for the pocket ripped, it took out some of the nylon too, and weakened the entire thing. (oops, there goes that whole 16kn thing).
Daisy chains are body weight only!
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rocketsocks
climber
Bellevue, WA
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Apr 20, 2006 - 10:13pm PT
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Seems to me that a daisy chain is a piece of equipment which can be very dangerous if used in the wrong way. And using it wrongly can be very easy to do without noticing. How exactly does this distinguish it from any other piece of climbing equipment?
If you back-clip a draw it could unclip in a fall and kill you. If you don't tie your knot exactly, precisely right on a two rope rappel it could roll off one of the tails and kill you. If you don't set your pro well it could pull out and kill you. If you don't set your anchor right during a rappel it could fail and kill you.
Just as with anything, if you can't trust yourself using equipment safely then don't use that equipment. Though I'd say that the overall move away from gear that is easier to screw up is a good one, but it's easy to go overboard.
For myself, I think the lesson is to never, ever, ever rely on any anchor that does not have dynamic rope in the system except for the rare, and temporary, situations where you are only applying your own body weight and the only possible falls would be extremely low factor. In other words: never climb on or belay off a static anchor.
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Apr 20, 2006 - 10:44pm PT
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(i'll preface this post with the fact that i've been drinking, but allas i still have a view on the topic and will try to think through my bourbon fog to iterate it)
the only time i use daisy's is when leading aid or jugging. obviously this doesn't apply to leading aid, but it does to jugging. i've been awaiting this video after seeing it mentioned in the bd catalog, and now after seeing it i understand the risk that i didn't see before. of course when i setup my jugs i shorten them up on the same lockers that anchor the ends, the exact way the video says i shouldn't.
so my first thought is "godamn, i can't believe i have to buy another set of lockers.....". my second thought is that i really don't, i think if you shockloaded your jugs enough to blow a bartack on a daisy you just might have some bigger problems to deal with.
so really this only applies to the above mentioned anchor situation; where a free climber anchors with his daisy and then procedes to belay a punter taking his last factor 2 fall.
but really, what kind of nucklehead anchors to the belay with a daisy when the rope is already there and easier to begin with? we spend bucks on superlight biners, count grams on cams and ditch every unecessary piece before leaving the ground and then bring along a massive chunk of nylon that we don't need in the first place??
i just don't get the need for daisy or the PAS. except maybe the PAS as a bigwall bivy 'ultrasafe convience piece' as mentioned above. but even then, if you were ever to utalize it high strength rating you'd shockload the hell out of your anchor and precous vital organs. i suppose its good for those sport climbin fellas cleaning bolted anchors, but thats not my cup to tea.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
Near a mountain, CA
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Apr 20, 2006 - 10:57pm PT
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I know someone that zipped through all the bar tacks during a big wall. Luckily he was clipped in correctly. I really like the video and I do use the two biner system. (I also like the PAS, it is just not part of my budget this spring.)
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et
climber
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Apr 21, 2006 - 12:03am PT
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Did a course with Rigging for Rescue and they sold me on the Purcell Prusik. Just takes a bit of 6mm cord and you have an adjustible leash. The best part: it is actually dynamic because the prusik takes time to grip the cord. There are many more uses as well. Here is a link that describes it pretty well. http://www.pbase.com/phil_box/purcell_tie_in
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pyro
Trad climber
stoney point,ca
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Apr 21, 2006 - 12:11am PT
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Most new wave aid climbers don't even go with daisy. Yates has the "quiker picker-uper".
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Mike Libecki
climber
the moment of now
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Apr 21, 2006 - 12:19am PT
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Anastasia,
Not questioning the validity of someone zipping through ALL of the bar tacks on a daisy, but curious to know how exactly this happened. I have maybe broke a couple on different daisies after bounce testing them senseless on thousands of bounce tests. Just curious how this happened?
Thanks.
Mike
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