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Mimi
climber
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Nov 22, 2006 - 09:42pm PT
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He apologized. Move on. Everyone knows it was a horrible tragedy.
Or better yet, delete this thread.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2006 - 11:13pm PT
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Huh? Only an honorable mention, is that all? I'm disappointed in you.
On a serious note you have no f'cking clue what transpired that day and how many people including aircraft were called out in weather that was very dangerous to all. Two rescuers actually ran up the death slabs in the rain to half dome for this. The cables were down and the girls were up there without proper safety equipment.
Andanother, get a life fool .....
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 22, 2006 - 11:26pm PT
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And graniteclimber is stupid fool also.
He's berating Ron on the very same thread that he claims should be inappropriate for that kind of dialog.
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andanother
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2006 - 10:40am PT
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sorry. Maybe you should post that over on the other thread. You know, the one where the family members and friends are viewing.
And while you're at it, could you do a little research on how much it costs to do a heli-rescue? I'm sure the family would like to discuss this, you know, on an "accounting scale" as you put it.
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darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
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Nov 23, 2006 - 10:50am PT
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Second Mimi, move on you wanker....
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 23, 2006 - 10:54am PT
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If you look at the body of andanother's posts, he's always bitching about something.
Ronbo is a decent guy, while andanother is just doing his best to make things worse.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Nov 23, 2006 - 12:37pm PT
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Wow, if I die I hope people don't just get all sad about it and not even think how to prevent others from making the same mistake. Just look at El Cap, how many of us take it that serious? People getting all mad at Ron is just as stupid as people who think reading the AA North American Accidents book is bad karma. Where in reality it is a good thing to read, learn from others mistakes so you don't get all f*#ked up. IF others hadn't rappeled off their ropes I doubt that I ever would have started tying knots in the ends. Now lets all just cry everytime one of us dies... f*#k thinking.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Nov 23, 2006 - 01:04pm PT
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In the "Half Dome Accident" thread, Piton Ron posted:
I have gotten a raft of sh#t for my first post, not only on this thread but in emails from graniteclimber as well.
Let me clarify that my first post was not intended to suggest that cost considerations should supercede consideration of the tragic nature of this incident.
Rather I was suggesting that we ALL might act more carefully if we look in depth at the potential comsequences of our actions.
For graniteclimber to write me (and I quote):
"As for the chopper crew, no one is holding a gun to their heads. If they don't want to take the risk, they should work in another profession. Besides longlining out a body is not urgent and should not involve particularly risky flying."
I think that strikes me as an attitude both cavalier and callous.
As if to underscore this yesterday here in Utah a SAR chopper searching for a missing woman crashed in the Green River with two on board. Both were critically injured. The pilot,(incorrect name deleted), from Reno has died.
Ron was dredging up a quote of mine from a private email exchange a week ago. Foolishly I rose to the bait and posted a response there in the thread, which as has been correctly pointed out, furthered the turn for the worse the thread had taken.
My response to Piton Ron's post above:
=
First, the friends and family of (incorrect name deleted) have my sincere condolences. SAR personnel are the real heroes of the climbing community.
Second, let me address Piton Ron's comments above which quote a private email from me out of context. As did others, I found Ron Olevsky's comments incredibly callous and inappropriate. However, I was pleased to see Ron's 11/14/06 4:43 post, in which he voiced regret for his posts but said he didn't believe in deleting posts.
Silly me, I took Ron's purported regret at face-value. I sent Ron what I believe was low-key, nonconfrontational encouragement to make an exception in this case and consier deleting his posts.
I was taken aback by Ron's response. Apparently his 11/14/06 4:43 post was dishonest and insincere and Ron was, in actuality, completely unrepentant.
Ironically, I don't disagree with Ron's basic point, but I am not willing to spit on someone's grave to make it.
I stand by my comments within the context written. It is not generally my practice to post someone else's private emails without their permission. However, Piton Ron apparently has no such compunctions and a full airing is necessary to set the record straight.
Full email exchange with Piton Ron (Ron Olevky) follows:
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 23:06:55 -0800 (PST)
From: "graniteclimber"
Subject: half dome accident
To: rolevs@earthlink.net
" I think deleting posts is usually bogus.
I said it. I regret it . Get over it."
Normally I'd agree if it was just us supertopo regulars.
But friends and family are going to google the thread up and there is no need for them to see this kind of discussion. Just my opinion.
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:38:39 -0700
Subject: Re: half dome accident
From: "Olevsky"
To: "graniteclimber"
Actually I soft peddled it.
More cautious behavior could have saved the chopper crew substantial
risk.
Everybody always has an excuse and is never personally responsible, and
everybody else has to foot the bill.
I'm sure this is not black and white, but inevitably people can not
always cop out.
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 23:46:03 -0800 (PST)
From: "graniteclimber" A
Subject: Re: half dome accident
To: "Olevsky"
Who said she's not responsible? She made a mistake and paid for it with her life. What more a price would you have her pay?
As for the chopper crew, no one is holding a gun to their heads. If they don't want to take the risk, they should work in another profession. Besides longlining out a body is not urgent and should not involve particularly risky flying.
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 01:29:53 -0700
Subject: Re: half dome accident
From: "Olevsky"
To: "graniteclimber"
Want to tell THEM that?
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:38:38 -0800 (PST)
From: "graniteclimber"
Subject: Re: half dome accident
To: "Olevsky"
The chopper crew? Absolutely. They would agree. I know chopper rescue pilots. They like what they do. They are proud of what they do. They don't need you to look out for them. Nor would I expect them to begrudge the victim the final flight out, as you evidently do.
Edit: Ron emailed me that he incorrectly named the deceased in his post. I have deleted the incorrect name from both his quoted post and my response.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 23, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
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Graniteclimber
You're an even a bigger fool than I thought, with your last post above.
Do you really think about what you're saying? Not very clearly as I can see.
Both you and that andanother guy need to sit in the corner and really really think about wtf you guys are really doing and saying.
Spend a few years in that corner .......
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andanother
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2006 - 12:23am PT
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Thanks for all those great responses. But most of you typed way too much. All you needed to type was:
"I missed the point, but I really want to respond anyway".
And an honest thanks to graniteclimber for his response. It's good to see that SOMEONE gets it.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 24, 2006 - 11:28am PT
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A tragedy is something from which we all lose something dear, that becomes forever lost. What happened is a very great tragedy. These threads are also a tragedy. There is no recovery from either.
We do try to learn so as to avoid repetition. When each of us has suggestions as to how to avoid future pain, it is always a good rule to make our suggestions to someone who can do something about it. This is what we should have done in this case.
The way forward lies in accepting that, whatever our disagreements, everyone is feeling the same pain. That pain does not separate us; it unites us.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2006 - 01:14pm PT
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Sorry, but this directed to the 2 clowns mentioned below.
I was truly pissed about these two clowns "granitecimber" and "andanother" for the very reason that they deliberately instigated and escalated something that didn't need to.
Andanother starts his own thread to escalate. Andanother is just the mini fool who echoes his bigger fool GC. Austin power movie comes to mind.
Graniteclimber escalates in the very thread he deemed was not fit for that kind of discussion (airing out his dirty laundry) and then after seeing that I pointed this out, moved it to the other thread here ("congrats") and continued with what was actually meant to be kept off the forum. Why do you think people go to the PM route? He also blames it on the "idea" that PitonRon" baited him. Obviously trying to keep the true aim of his escalation and put the blame on others.
Andanother tries to instigate I post on the thread where the family is mourning. FOOL!
Yet both of these clowns remain anonymous in their exchanges both here and elsewhere, never revealing their true identities.
Deception and non credibility to the max.
This whole matter has nothing to do with Emily's tragic fate on Half Dome, but all to do with two very immature and foolish people stirring up unnecessary sh'it.
End of rant. I'm done with these 2 ass'holes.
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andanother
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2006 - 02:12pm PT
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again, WAY too much typing. Just copy and paste this into any further responses:
"I missed the point, but I really want to respond anyway".
or this:
"I don't know what is going on here, but I need to have the last word"
These say the exact same thing as the rest of your posts, but will save you a bunch of time. you're clueless, and I think it's funny! Keep babbling....
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Nov 24, 2006 - 03:42pm PT
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Young giving lady tragically falls to her death; the rest is just water under the bridge.rg
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Nov 24, 2006 - 03:46pm PT
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Maybe your mistake was attributing "hero" status in the first place? People are people - if you give someone that status, you'll only be disappointed when the cape comes off.
This is really not that big of a deal. Ron's post was nothing many weren't already thinking. They just didn't say it. Some of the response posts continued to follow suit. None of you are playing by the Bambi "if you can't say something nice" rule. What's the Bible adage? Don't point out someone's sliver when you have a stake in your own eye? Something like that.
I once saw a tv show about a kid who went to college and resolved not to speak the first year to see what he could learn. He learned that we only speak to make an impression of ourselves on others. What impression is your intent when posting?
What is mine? I'm just bored.
I can't believe anyone is shocked that there'd be a death on the cables. Like eKat said - man, that place is gnarly. I cannot believe normal people go up and down that every day.
An interesting discourse could be why, exactly, the cables are even there, when the gov't is out to protect us from ourselves in every other situation. I've topped out on Snake Dike and had tourists begging to buy my water off me. That's a little odd. As Ron said, I'd think Angel's Landing is of the same genre. My second trip up that saw snow along the way, and rain. I skipped on past a woman nearly crying and gripping onto the guide chains. "How do you do that?" she plaintively asked. "Well, it's been an acclimitization process - it's not as scary and uncertain to me." But she's right there doing it, too. What is she doing there? What am I doing there?
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Nov 24, 2006 - 04:06pm PT
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"An interesting discourse could be why, exactly, the cables are even there, when the gov't is out to protect us from ourselves in every other situation."
I've been wondering that for a long time too. Why not make it a real via ferrata instead of a "maybe it'll help, maybe it won't" system? I'm all for personal accountability, but it just strains credulity that a half-assed rig like this would be permitted on NPS territory, especially considering the traffic it sees.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 24, 2006 - 06:41pm PT
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Werner can express himself as he pleases on any such topic as far as I'm concerned. If anything, I'd like to hear far more in-depth and brutally honest discourse from him relative to the insights and opinions he must have after so much experience with all the ways we can fail on stone.
Ron too has also been around long enough and seen enough to warrant his opinions. And he's earned that right climbing in places where a rescue isn't necessarily a few minutes away...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 24, 2006 - 06:46pm PT
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"An interesting discourse could be why, exactly, the cables are even there, when the gov't is out to protect us from ourselves in every other situation."
I've been wondering that for a long time too. Why not make it a real via ferrata instead of a "maybe it'll help, maybe it won't" system? I'm all for personal accountability, but it just strains credulity that a half-assed rig like this would be permitted on NPS territory, especially considering the traffic it sees.
I'd agree, it seems a mircale accidents like this aren't a weekly occurance on the current setup. If there were going to be a major via ferrata in the U.S. than this would seem to be THE poster child begging for such a treatment. The issue there is it would require a concession for training and rentals. But it would seem they need to either do that or just chisel steps up the thing. What are the traffic and accident stats on the existing rig?
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