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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 23, 2006 - 10:28pm PT
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Yesterday evening, the ever affable Hans Stentheimer fell to the deck when a yellow alien ripped out of a textbook perfect placement low on the Star Walls Crack (13a) Hans was lucky, landed in the perfect spot and only hairline cracked his heel, though now he is in a cast, it could have been so much worse. I was belaying. The second sickest feeling is to be providing a good belay, then in an instant realizing that the belay is useless and a spot 10 feet away is what is needed.
Our crew consisted of some very experienced trad climbers and none of us could come up with a plausible reason that this cam pulled. Did the rope catch the trigger? The rope came taught in the biner, taking some weight before blowing so it seems unlikely. Certainly it was a hard force fall, a small section of rope out, and Hans is not a small man, fit as he is right now. Any ideas? anyone experienced perfect alien placements failing? My confidence in these cams is very much diminished.
Peter
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2006 - 10:39pm PT
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Yes you are right, apples and oranges, it did not break, but it blew in a freakish way.
Peter
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Aug 23, 2006 - 10:40pm PT
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Did the cam break or rip out of that shallow, questionable rock? We frequently do it as a clean practice aid climb and most of those shallow placements make you think....I'm glad your friend didn't get more seriously injured.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 23, 2006 - 10:41pm PT
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Peter
You know as well as the rest of us cams blow all the time. It's not just aliens. Some guy blew two friends on Hardd at the cookie years ago at the top of that pillar 20 feet off the ground. He landed on his head broke his neck and died. His partners carried him to the road instead of stabilizing him at the base, so we don't know if that contributed towards his injuries or his death.
Small cams are always a suspect though. Their range is so limited. Go back and replace the yellow alien exactly where Hans fell and duplicate the failure. (from the ground of course)
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2006 - 10:43pm PT
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No, this was not a shallow placement, it was in a perfectly deep, slightly constricting spot. Visually bomber.
Peter
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Aug 23, 2006 - 10:54pm PT
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I had a partner rip an alien on a fall early this season(Hang Ten at the Nears, placed in the horizontal just befor you are going to pull the roof move).
The most likely reason it ripped was because he torqued it sideways as he fell(stepped down from the move, had the rope around left leg and the right foot dangling in air instead of on rock as he thought....Went to reach down to swipe the rope away and....having only one hand for support instead of what he thought... he fell, of course). Getting hung up in the rope system, he twisted the cam and it pulled, and also pulled a micronut that had been set in opposition lower down the line. Luckily a tricam between the alien and the nut stopped him from decking.
Is it possible that your fall yarded the alien in a direction that wasn't anticipated?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 23, 2006 - 10:59pm PT
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I don't see how you can call this a gear failure if the cam is still good and undamaged.
Unless, as is posible with aliens, it umbrellaed.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2006 - 11:05pm PT
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If there was any rotation it was slight, he climbed up, placed it well, down climbed, went back up, fell and pop, out it came.
Werner, (Greetings!!) I know cams can fail, but I always figure there is a good reason, too tight, rock giving way, walking into a bad spot, etc. This was spooky, because it looked perfect. I will try to arrange the incident re-creation as you suggest.
Dirt, the piece did not break, it was a failure of function within what should be normally functional parameters. I wish I could edit the title of this thread to avoid another endless semantic go-round.
Peter
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Aug 23, 2006 - 11:08pm PT
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There are places on that climb( even 40' up) that almost seem like the rock has been subjected to a fire or something. I don't even like the way the bolts look and feel on the top. Weird rock, maybe I'll drag the Geologist up there for a more detailed explanation..
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2006 - 11:14pm PT
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Mark, you are getting me thinking perhaps the outer most micro surface within the crack powdered off under stress. I will go back and look closely to see if there are any tiny grooves in the stone that would indicate micro surface failure. Thanks.
Peter
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 23, 2006 - 11:20pm PT
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Yes Juan, you will get the award. Don't worry.
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lazide
Big Wall climber
Bay Area, CA
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Aug 23, 2006 - 11:21pm PT
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Not a stupid post!
One thing to check as well - does the yellow have the right range? I.E. if you measure the lobes, are the identical to your other yellows? Is the axle hole in the same place as for your other yellows?
There was an incident with misdrilled axle holes awhile ago, maybe this could be related?
A too shallow cam angle could lead to it popping out of a 'good' placement.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 23, 2006 - 11:30pm PT
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Juan
You've said enough! Some poor guy just almost got killed or seriously injured and you have the gall to come in here and make your dumb ass remark.
Start your daily evening thread now and leave Peter alone.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2006 - 11:35pm PT
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Yep, I should have the named the thread differently, the incident really shook us though, and there are many here who spend more time thinking about gear than I do. The rock was seemingly solid, the right size in the best spot, etc.
I guess it is high time I received the insults that this forum is famous for.
Thanks lazide, that I will check.
Peter
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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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Aug 23, 2006 - 11:41pm PT
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Peter, glad to hear that Hans is okay.
I would also check the location of the axles as lazide mentioned. Just a few degrees off from the typical angles that cams operate at, 13 to 15, and the forces change significantly. You could also try doing some controlled tests by bounce testing this piece versus another piece that you know is good.
As you mentioned, Hans is no small fella. From the description, it sounds like he fell at the low crux. Right off the deck, you have a short hand crack to work with that gets smaller and eventually disappears. I'm assuming he had the yellow alien near the top of this crack? At this point, you have some bouldery moves where you first move out left to a sloper than back right and up. Pretty desperate moves if I remember correctly and is this where he fell? At this point he's a few feet above that piece, but still not really that far off the deck so my point is that it could've been a high fall factor, which is the variable of interest and not the actual distance he fell. Anyway, this is a lot of speculation on my part but I'm trying to get an idea of the fall factor involved.
Don't worry about Juan, he needs to get a life.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Aug 23, 2006 - 11:50pm PT
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Maybe we should define an ANSI standard crack, and then if the piece pulls we can immediatly claim gear failure.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2006 - 11:58pm PT
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Trad,
Righto on the cam location. He made the move back right into the crack, then the next one, going for the lock from which he would have placed the next cam, so yes, a high load factor fall, cam at his knee level short amount of rope out.
Thanks for your suggestion.
Peter
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Aug 23, 2006 - 11:59pm PT
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Maysho,
Sorry for the Flame, I can be a real as#@&%e at times.
Good Luck with your failure analysis.
Juan
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2006 - 12:03am PT
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Apology accepted. If you know how to edit or re-title a thread I will, I agree it is misleading.
Peter
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Aug 24, 2006 - 12:21am PT
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The title is fine. I sometimes forget that the internet involves real people with real feelings. I really do not know what got into me.
Glad to hear no one got hurt. I had a coworker that got killed on Beverly's tower when his single cam pulled in the first twenty feet and he decked on his head.
He did Astroman a few days before and was solid on 5.11 but a 5.9 move got him.
Juan
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