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dodangler
Trad climber
truckee
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 19, 2005 - 09:24pm PT
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Went out to Hair Raiser Buttress this weekend bummed to find the bolts chopped. The buttress looks like a beautiful climb. I walked up and saw the distance between the first and the second bolt, realized that major ground fall potential existed. It was in a matter of minutes that we found the copy of the letter written by the bolt remover, informing us that the route has been "restored" to its original X potential and crediting the Old School Runnout Blah Blah Blah Club for removing the unwanted bolts. "Enjoy the rest of your day" was kindly written at the end of the letter. At least they are a friendly bunch. I just today saw a blurb by Can't Say informing us on ST of the removal of the bolts on the very day that they were removed.
I'm wondering if Clevenger gave the OK for the additional bolts, and ifso what jack ass remved them. Is there any difference between adding without permission and removing without permission. I don't get it.
I'm also wondering if I should have just said screw it and gone for it. Some other party went for it and I'm cracking a a beer now in their honor, but a ground fall potential like that just does not appeal to me.
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426
Sport climber
Obed
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Sep 19, 2005 - 10:12pm PT
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'Tis a pity, I've been out there a couple of times and never got my hair raised, either. I've climbed a few garbage routes in the vicinity.
Funny to think how the average sport climb has more bolts than that 3 pitch route...
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mark_s
climber
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Sep 19, 2005 - 10:30pm PT
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Vern did give permission to add the new bolts. Tough question about removing them. It doesn't really make it "hair raising" with the added bolts. But you will DIE if you botch the first pitch. Better to crack a beer than to crack your head wide open in the end. But a local mammoth climber is going to replace them soon. I won't give his name, but he wrote something at mammoth mountaineering.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 19, 2005 - 11:27pm PT
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Right on! chop, chop
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426
Sport climber
Obed
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Sep 19, 2005 - 11:51pm PT
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What I really don't understand is why it's usually the case that a 5.11 or harder climber puts up a 5.8 and turns it into a death route.
I go to Tuolumne and the harder I climb, the safer I am (a generalization, certainly).
I've cut my teeth on plenty of old school routes like Sweet Jesus...but let's face it, it's a lot safer to get on a 10+ like Shadow of Doubt.
I realize that a lot of climbers (i.e. me) are narcissitic *es but I don't understand that whole mentality of "I want people to die on my route" or "I'm climbing so below my level I can run it out 60-80 feet".
I applaud guys like Greg Barnes-his "Excellent Smithers" is one of the best routes I've done in the Meadows for the grade...as well as best protected.
And, in this case, if Vern Clevenger says it's okay to add some bolts, then who's say "I'm choppin' it"...isn't it the preference of the FA party that should count most?
*Bolts were added on Dike Route as well, with Gerughty's approval. Does anyone sack up and not clip those? Not that I've seen....
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 19, 2005 - 11:51pm PT
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Well I just realized that I have 5 bolts on each wheel on my car. I will chop 2 bolts on each wheel and then I will be rad and trad.
What’s with those commie pinko car manufacturers taking the adventure out of diving.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Sep 19, 2005 - 11:58pm PT
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I once had a car that chopped its own bolts. Plenty of adventure there!
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Sep 20, 2005 - 12:01am PT
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"Well I just realized that I have 5 bolts on each wheel on my car. I will chop 2 bolts on each wheel and then I will be rad and trad."
Then you will be like Coiler.
Take a look at the Fun Mobile.
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dodangler
Trad climber
truckee
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2005 - 01:05am PT
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Even when climbing way below my ability I still put gear in to prevent cratering. Are there other climbs that have been lowered to mere mortal status that I'm not aware of that are worthy of mention, and are these likely to be brought back to their previous "rad"ness. I was surprised that the namesake climb of an area gets chopped, somebody is pissed apparently.
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James
Social climber
The Climber's Subconcious
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Sep 20, 2005 - 01:18am PT
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Werner,
Classic
426,
The standards for climbing have changed. Crags, once the frontier for the intrepid, are now playgrounds.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 20, 2005 - 03:41am PT
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The other half of the FA party apparently was definitely against the retro bolting according to posts on RC...
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Sep 20, 2005 - 04:35am PT
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What happens if a potentially cool 5.8-5.10 climb is first visited by a 5.13 climbing @sshole who places 2 bolts for 100 feet? Is every 5.8-5.10 climber cursed for eternity to sh#t their pants or just plan not do it?
I think the gnarly-factor of the route (and validity/respect for FA style) should be considered in context of the first ascentionist's climbing ability. But then again, that's just for people who like to talk smack about how run out they were. I know I've felt 100x more hair-balled and focused when I'm 30 feet out "5.9" with an inadequate topo (when I'm not sure if I'm physically able to make the next moves and can't see where to go while I die a slow death starting to get sewing machine leg) than when soloing Royal Arches after 2 roped trips. And there's my smack!
So these other details matter in terms of trying to objectively qualify the experience.
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Lee NH
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Sep 20, 2005 - 05:50am PT
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I read in a magazine that climbing is supposed to be a fun and safe activity for the whole family. Me and Granny are going to go do that Bitcher-Yossarian thingy tomorrow.
Hugo Bosch
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 20, 2005 - 06:19am PT
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As I posted over on RC once:
Put the bolts too far apart and you're posing; too close and you're pandering - such is the sporting man or women's dilemma. Finding that elusive Goldilockian "just right" that brings out the best in a line while leaving some shred of "sport" in a sport route would seem to be the challenge. In general it's a losing proposition - you can't please everyone short of bolting a line for the lowest common denominator.
Folks can go to Six Flags if they want "safe" entertainment with a low gnarly factor...
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mark_s
climber
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Sep 20, 2005 - 09:15am PT
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its a sorry state that climbing has come to. What ever happened to just climb the route. For someone to even ask to add bolts is a joke.
I blame it all on the frick'n gym climbers mentality. I mean really retro bolt....wtf is that. 10 years ago you didn't retro bolt someone elses route. Its you gym climbers who can't even belay with a stitch plate.....need your precious gri-gri. Bolts too far apart...i want to add some to make it safe....well sorry to add some rain to your outdoor rock climbing experience...you will fuk'n DIE climbing. There's no pads, and techno playing while you pull on your red holds. I've seen people outside climbing, asking their partner if a certain hold or crack is "off route" What a joke.
Take all that energy about cry'n about who chopped what, added what and that a routes too dangerous. Take all that energy and climb with it. Climb to Climb, don't climb to clip bolts.
Burn the gyms, chop the bolts.
....my coffee is abit too strong this morning...but really, what ever happened to climbing to climb. Im really sick of this gym climber sh#t....and it only gets worse. The sport has been ruined for along time.
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426
Sport climber
Obed
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Sep 20, 2005 - 10:36am PT
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James writes:The standards for climbing have changed.
So....did we end up going with Harding's "do what you will"
...or Robbin's "do what I will"
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Sep 20, 2005 - 10:46am PT
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Could someone post up a quick synopsis of what led to the retro-bolts being added in the first place?
Whose idea was it––and why? On a formation named Hair Raiser Buttress...
Uhh, hello?
I propose changing the name to Knott So Hair Raising Buttress until we get this all sorted out.
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dodangler
Trad climber
truckee
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2005 - 11:01am PT
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Mark S - Whoa there big boy get down off your horse my friend, have you ever been out to Hair Raiser? I've done plenty of run out climbs, it seemed a bit more than your average R rating, steeper terrain with certain crater potential if you fell. My point is not that there should be no run out climbs, my point is that the bolts were there why f$#% with it? The rock out there is beautiful why do more damage to the face? If you are such a purist don't clip the second and foourth bolts on the climb, but to rip out bolts from the stone defaces the route once again.
I wasted a bunch of fuel driving out there not to mention the time, so now I'm not sure if I can afford my gym membership and my Saturday belay lesson was missed. I think I might have left my gri gri at the base of the climb, oops. Dude, that red route is definetly 5.9. Stay bitchin, James.
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dodangler
Trad climber
truckee
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2005 - 11:14am PT
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Hardman K- quote from the Mammoth Area Rock Climbs-Lewis and Moynier. "If Hair Raiser were in TM it would be the best slab climb of its grade. As was the style of the day this was a very bold, runout route. A few more bolts were added on the second ascent. Then in the late 1990's a controversial move, many more bolts were added. The route is still a little sporty, but is far from hair raising{except for the exposed start.} FA Vern Clevenger Tom Higgins, 1975. Retrobolts: Alan Hirahara." Thats all I know.
James
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Sep 20, 2005 - 11:21am PT
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dodangler, I'm sure the 63 year old creaker who climbed it without so much as a moan, appreciates yours props (the party you mentioned). As do a few of my friends who climbed it w/o the added first pitch bolts. They didn't seem to think it was all that outrageous.
But maybe it's just they're kind of old school climbers. I mean the youngest person out of all 8 of these folks was 47 or 48.
Maybe it's just a matter of sack. If you're not up to the route, don't bring it down to your level, simply because you want to do it. It's a character malady that exists in so many of today's climbers. It's the "all about me" type of relativism.
Respect for the FA needs to be upheld and community enforement is the only recourse available to those who actually care about the soul of climbing.
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