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dustonian
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 2, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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They must be titanium since they seem to last forever. I can't seem to find these damn things anywhere though and I am NOT paying $30+/bolt from Liberty Mtn... f*#k those guys. Anybody know a good supplier these days?
On another note, whoever replaced the bolts on "Nancy" at Mickey's Beach did a great public service but unfortunately didn't allow the glue to set 100% in the hole... a couple of the new Tortugas are moving. I don't care what anyone says, if you've ever placed (or even used) a glue-in, then you know it shouldn't be able to rotate in the hole...
Anyway, titanium hardware tips of any kind greatly appreciated.... especially the U-bolt staples. Thanks!!
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Actually, some glue-ins are designed to rotate in the hole. I know this might be disconcerting, but it's fine. There's been some discussion on here in the past about this. Maybe Doug Robinson or Greg Barnes can chime in, lemme see if I can find the threads...
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couchmaster
climber
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I have 300-500 or so in my basement. 3 different sizes. How many you want?
Edited to add: sorry, I just realized you are talking beach side installation, mine are only stainless steel.
Billy goat is right on that. (BG, are you Phil? )
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Couchmaster--no, I'm not Phil, who's Phil?
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dustonian
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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Cool, thanks for the link. That is reassuring but I still find it incredibly hard to believe. It must be something about titanium vs. stainless steel... not to mention you can't
"notch" the base of the eye into the rock very easily with the Tortugas The SS glue-in bolts I have placed are completely immobile and feel super-bomber. Now if I could just say the same thing about the hints of oxidation you see after only a year....
Anyway... Ti staples anyone? Any affordable alternative to those insanely overpriced Tortugas??
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Glue-ins use an epoxy which bonds incredibly well to the rock, but actually doesn't bond to metal. If you glue-in a perfect cylinder it will slide right out. So the notches in the glue-in bolts (or the threads for threaded rods) are what keeps the bolts in place.
The proper way to place glue-ins is to always set the head into a notch in the rock so the head can't rotate. This is a bit of a pain since the hole size for the glue-in is a lot larger diameter than the bolt, so a perfect placement would use a small drill bit to cut a notch for the bolt head. Obviously a bit of an art, and extra tricky if hand-drilling like we did at Pinnacles. We didn't know to notch the rock and inset the head of the bolt while placing the early-version tortugas at Pinnacles and Mickey's Beach. However, pull tests on rotating glue-ins show that there is no loss of strength - the epoxy is insanely strong.
Obviously not a problem with staple style U-bolts.
Mike Richardson of Climb Aloha in Hawaii has had titanium U-bolts made for Hawaii, and may have extra for sale (Hawaii also sees SCC, but nowhere near as badly as Thailand).
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dustonian
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
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Thanks, Greg. Glad to hear there is no compromise in strength, but I still get wigged clipping those rotating Tortugas on Nancy. The "notching" seems to be the critical part of the operation in preventing movement in any case...
I will check in with Climb Aloha.... the U-bolts at Mickey's seem to be absolutely bomber after all these years, kind of odd since I think they are only SS?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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dustonian, we saw no indication of SCC at Mickey's Beach. Thailand sees it in only a few years. Hawaii sees it over a longer time period (10-15 years? I forget). But the Brits have done extensive investigations of seaside bolts in the UK and they've never seen any problems. I can't find the reference in a quick search of the BMC site but I think it was from around 5-10 years ago.
Temperature, humidity, etc have some clear effects (especially high temps are needed), but no one really knows all the details. The basics are that any seaside bolting in hot areas has to be with titanium. Mickey's can get warm, but I think that it tends to be fairly low humidity when it's really warm, and it's cool at night (and cold & foggy all summer?).
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Splater, the Petzl hanger that I broke in Thailand, just by clipping it and twisting the biner with my hand, was type 316L - but it was 10 years old in a place where 4 year old stainless bolts break.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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The issue of titanium bolts, and anything similar is a difficult one. I have been asked by a number of people to produce them, and also by the BMC to make suitable bolts for sea cliffs. The end result is a reluctance of customers willing to pay the price, as we can see from the OP!
Titanium bolts have a very poor reputation in Europe, tests showing that the ones imported via the USA fail at alarmingly low loads and also suffer from quality control issues. This would make introducing any titanium bolt to the market an extremely difficult proposition.
To make a titanium bolt to achieve our own internal standards as well as those of EN959 would be incredibly expensive, a new workshop to avoid cross contamination from stainless products, glove box welding, x-ray or ultrasonic weld testing, new ventilation system and so on, apart from the cost of a suitable titanium alloy such as Type 27. At the end of the day the market is too small to justify this sort of investment, the activists in Thailand are talking about 500 units over 10 years whereas for normal SS bolts 500 per day would be a good production target!
The use of welded bolts of any material in a marine environment is, in my opinion, a mistake. I have over 20 years experience in marine engineering and know exactly how reliable welds can be.
There are a number of stainless alloys which perform well, 1,4462 was chosen for the BMC as suitable for areas with temperatures up to around 50°C with a manufacturers guarantee of 100 years in a marine environment. While there are higher performing alloys a compromise has to be made, the higher nickel alloys being more expensive and some having insufficient ductility to be effectively worked.
The biggest problem is stock availabilty, not all alloys being made in rod form but rather sheet, and generally the specialist alloys need to be ordered a year in advance, even 1.4462 which is the most widely used duplex alloy in Europe is in short supply. The only rod material available last year was 8mm, normally I would have offered 6mm as well but that had a waiting time of 1 year, as it is I had to wait 6 weeks for delivery and pay the transport surcharge from the mill in the U.K.
The 8mm rod bolts are a bit overkill anyway, bolt eye failure on a straight out (axial) pull glued into granite-102kN!!!
As ever, a lot of people want better bolts but when they see the cost of the material (1.4462 is ca $42,000 per ton + transport + mill certificate) they soon decide to buy something else!
Jim Titt
Bolt Products
Germany
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dustonian
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2009 - 05:09am PT
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Hey all,
Thanks for the info... especially the MSDS from Splater. Sh#t I can't believe that alloy is better than 316!! What the hell is Fixe doing selling that stock as their "marine grade" glue-in when there is a better alloy available?? Annoying... especially since the first two bolts are Fixe 316 and I still have 8 or 9 more waiting to go in... Grrrr!!
Oh well, those will be the first to get replaced I guess.... so irritating. Any tips for getting them out and using the same hole for titanium?? Pretty much impossible I'm guessing...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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JimT- Thanks for the wealth of solid technical information on the topic. Glad you took the time to share it with us.
Pricepoint definitely governs this market! LOL
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