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Messages 1 - 19 of total 19 in this topic |
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 25, 2018 - 07:07pm PT
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hey there, say... once winter, sadly, my mom called-- which she was
not in the habit to do-- as, she is not a talker, really...
it turned out-- her dear sister had died and they were all in shock...
(saw it, later, in the ohio papers) ... she was at first, a nameless,
statitic-- and i cried, more) ...
she had her own pond, and for all her life, worked on ponds, even
in winter...
this was one of the first warmer winters, years ago-- and-- something
went wrong... we will never know for sure...
THUS-- I SAW this recently on someone's facebook page...
however-- THIS GUY is prepared...
thus-- the SHOCK AFFECT, well, he was ready for it...
i read a LOT of info on this, after she died, and the
SHOCK is what usually kills, within seconds...
folks unintentionally, GASP FROM THE COLD, you just really can't control
that-- by doing so the body swallows water and drowns...
if one is lucky enough to to somehow fall with arms out, or spread,
you may have a chance...
here are some 'hopefully self rescue' ideas...
PLEASE folks, take care, around thin ice...
or-- ANY ice, come winter, fishing, or hiking, etc...
sadly, one is 'caught off-guard' , though... :(
[Click to View YouTube Video]
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2018 - 07:12pm PT
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hey there say...
there are articles...
will add more, later...
feel free to share, whatever applies, or,
any of your experiences...
http://www.fortunebay.org/the-myth-of-falling-through-the-ice/
You simply cannot die of hypothermia in 32ºF (0ºC) water in 5 – 10 minutes. However, you can rapidly meet your demise if you fall through the ice or fall into the icy waters. Here is what can really happen:
1. Cold Shock Response – You have just broken through the ice and are now gasping for air, you panic and suck in water. It is an automatic reflex – your body tries to take in air before you go underwater – but you take in water instead. This is a very serious issue for expeditions. It is especially serious for kayakers, divers, boaters or anyone near cold, icy water. In fact, it is the leading cause of death from immersion in very cold water.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Dec 26, 2018 - 11:55am PT
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Up here they say:
4” for a person, 5-6” for a snowmachine, 8” for a car
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plund
Social climber
OD, MN
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Dec 26, 2018 - 02:38pm PT
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You're further 'up', John, but up here we say 4" walking, 6-8" ATV or snowmobile, 10-12" car, 12+" for pickup / big truck.
I enjoy ice fishing, but have never felt the need to compete in the 'first out on the ice' contest.
Several years ago, a friend's son went in while trying a long waterskip on his snowmobile. He was rescued, responsive & moving, but died in the ambulance of a massive heart attack. It's thought that when the frigid blood from the extremities, 'blocked' from the core by the hypothermic vasoconstriction response, is released back into circulation it can shock the heart. Don't have references or citations, but have heard of several similar cases -- person survives immersion but NOT the rewarming.
Be careful out there -- no ice is ever TRULY SAFE.
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Dec 26, 2018 - 05:18pm PT
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neebee, first video looks too easy.
1st attempt of a second video also looks too easy.
Probably these guys rehearsed it quite a few times.
Having ice-picks (2nd part of a 2nd video) is very important when walking on ice.
It significantly increases your chances of getting out of water on your own.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 26, 2018 - 05:34pm PT
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hey there say, YES yury... yes, it is FAR too easy... :(
that scenary, sadly, i do not think could happen... :(
my dear auntie, a very 'strong wilderness' gal in her 80's,
who would have known better-- but, somehow, 'missed the mark'
that year... :(
well-- if it was that easy, she'd have done it... :(
i will find the article that shows what really happens...
the body sinks immediatly, gasp, as the shock hits and
swallows the water, and that's it, :(
it broke our hearts...
everytime i go by ponds, i think of her...
and this year, after seeing this video on someones page,
well-- i just wanted to let folks be aware...
thank you so very much, Yury! for chipping in...
and a happy supertopo eve, to you...
(and for the new year, best wishes for a good solid and prosperous
one, at that) ...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 26, 2018 - 05:36pm PT
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hey there say, plund...
as to this quote of yours:
It's thought that when the frigid blood from the extremities, 'blocked' from the core by the hypothermic vasoconstriction response, is released back into circulation it can shock the heart. Don't have references or citations, but have heard of several similar cases -- person survives immersion but NOT the rewarming.
yes, i too, had heard that... (don't know what others have to say on it, but it sounds to make sense) ... thanks so much for caring to share here...
happy good eve, and best wishes for new year-- good, solid and prosperous, :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_shock_response
Cold shock response is the physiological response of organisms to sudden cold, especially cold water.
In humans, cold shock response is perhaps the most common cause of death from immersion in very cold water,[1] such as by falling through thin ice. The immediate shock of the cold causes involuntary inhalation, which if underwater can result in drowning. The cold water can also cause heart attack due to vasoconstriction;[2] the heart has to work harder to pump the same volume of blood throughout the body. For people with existing cardiovascular disease, the additional workload can result in cardiac arrest. Inhalation of water (and thus drowning) may result from hyperventilation. Some people are much better able to survive swimming in very cold water due to body or mental conditioning.[1]
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 26, 2018 - 05:44pm PT
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hey there say... if you WITNESS someone...
this may have good info...
on what to do ...
https://www.verywellhealth.com/steps-for-rescuing-an-ice-victim-preach-1298758
(there may be better sites, for this, not sure-- but this one,
does show a rescue station... would be nice if other lakes,
DID have these, huh... :( had not known of this... )
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 26, 2018 - 05:44pm PT
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My brother and his friend died after falling through while ice fishing. It was horrible.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 26, 2018 - 05:54pm PT
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hey there say, ... one more for now...
this has a LOT of info...
http://www.shipwrite.bc.ca/Chilling_truth.htm
THERE IS A VERY GOOD chart here...
however-- that does not help one survive... it is teaching
info... this is from SHIPWRITE PRODUCTION... BY KEVIN MONAHAN...
Kevin Monahan is a retired Canadian Coast Guard officer with more than 20 years experience navigating the British Columbia coast as a small vessel captain.
By the 1990’s the statistics collected by the US Coast Guard and the Canadian Red Cross, amongst others, were telling a story that was no longer possible to ignore. It turned out that in spite of the attention paid to hypothermia over past decades, drowning continued to be a major cause of death.
We had been more correct than we realized, several decades ago. Most victims of cold water immersion actually die of drowning, not hypothermia—and many drowning victims were very close to safety when they died. For instance, the Canadian Safe Boating Council / SmartRisk Study showed that between 1991 and 2000, 41% of those who drowned while boating were within 10 meters of shore at the time. An additional 22% were within 10 to 15 meters of shore. A British study from 1977 showed that 55% of open water drownings occurred within 3 meters of safety!!! And two thirds of drowning victims were strong swimmers.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 26, 2018 - 05:59pm PT
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That’s how my Swedish friends who skated the Baltic rolled, so to speak. They all practised it
and knew it worked. They skated on sea ice so thin they could feel it flexing beneath them!
Sometimes it got so thin they knew that if they stopped they would go in! 😳
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 26, 2018 - 06:15pm PT
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hey there say, reilly... oh myyyyyyyyyy.... :O
thanks for s sharing... :O :)
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Dec 26, 2018 - 10:43pm PT
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Neebee gosh that is awful.
I have no advice other than experience. I lived in New Hampshire in the lakes region. Ice fishing is big time there.
It was a warm winter and at the derby they had 2x12 planks getting to the edge. We had our black lab T.J. with us and she was a little sketched out. We learned a few folks fell through the ice.
On the way back T.J. was not so keen on the wood ramps. She fell through. It was 4 degrees F. I splayed out trying to reach her and I fell through! Fortunately I was wearing a Gore Tex puffy and was able to float swim to the plank. Given that I was a climber and in serious adrenaline intoxication I managed the best V6 mantle and grabbed my 80 lb dog by the scruff with one hand and yanked her 4 ft up and onto shore. She would have drowned. In 3 minutes I would have. She looked like a snowballl I did too.
Needless to say we took a long hot shower together.
So sorry.
S...
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plund
Social climber
OD, MN
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Dec 27, 2018 - 07:34am PT
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Happie, that's awful...SO sorry for you & yours....
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 27, 2018 - 10:53am PT
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It was, truly. They did not go quickly. People heard them screaming from the bar near the lake's edge. It took time, of course, to get a rescue and get them out. It was said there was screaming for 40 minutes; that perhaps one went in and the other tried to help before succumbing.
He and I were driving about 2 weeks before he died, on our way up to Marquette, MI, to visit our dying father(my brother died 13 days after my dad). On the way, we passed ice fishermen who seemed to b standing on the water. He said "You only need one inch of ice."
I begged him to never go out on that kind of ice and he said "I can't promise you I won't. I love the sport."
The ice he fell through was a little more than 1 inch - not much more, and also on a lake fed by underground springs. The ice thicknesses fluctuated because of that.
But mostly I don't say my brother died because he drowned from falling through the ice. I say he fell through the ice and drowned because he was drunk, which of course he was. It's "the sport."
Anyway - stay away from think ice, people, even if you think it is thick enough.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 27, 2018 - 10:58am PT
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They skated on sea ice so thin they could feel it flexing beneath them!
No.... just no. That's nuts.
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plund
Social climber
OD, MN
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Dec 27, 2018 - 11:40am PT
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The hell of it is that hard-core fisherman LOVE 1st ice; the fish are still active & typically still in the same areas as in the fall. As I said, I've absolutely NO interest in the 'first guy out there' contest.
Seems every year there's a story about Lake Superior fishermen getting stuck on a slab that detaches from shore...good training for the firemen I guess...
I live close to the St Croix; my policy is to wait until I see the Bayport boys (and girls) out there with their Suburbans & Ice Castles before I even think about it. Too lazy to walk pulling all my crap; don't own an ATV or snowmobile, so I wait until it's drivable.
That said, it can be fun...especially on the Croix, where you never know what you're gonna get. A few years back I caught a 30" sturgeon (tiny hook, fishing for bluegills on top of a rock hump, 10 feet of water)that I fought for almost 30 minutes. Crappies, sunnies, walleyes, sauger, perch, northerns, smallmouth, sheephead, mud puppies all caught from the same hole / house in a season...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 27, 2018 - 12:20pm PT
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hey there say, skywalker1... oh my... we are not really sure, but:
the thought was-- she was out either rescuing her NEW dog (which would not have been used to the ice) ... or, she was working on it for the geese...
it seems a lot more seriuos than folks really THINK about, :(
as, each year, somewhere, children, or young adults, just have not
been taught...
a local gal, here, a teacher, just drowned from falling through the
ice: trying to rescue her dog... :(
her son saw the dog come home, wet-- and alone...
the firemen found her, a ways under the ice... :(
it was a huge, loss, of course to her family,
and the whole town area, that knew her...
and, to her-- to be gone too soon...
thank you to all that shared here...
every bit, may help...
(when my aunt first died this way-- i posted here and
was very upset... )
this year, after that mother died, i just though
it would be good to have a thread here,
and THEN-- i saw that another friend's
DAUGHTER HAD POSTED-- the self rescue...
which, hardly seems it could work, :(
as-- situation would have to 'exactly' perfect for it, to...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 27, 2018 - 12:32pm PT
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hey there say, happigrrrl...
oh my! i am so sorry, i did not reply...
we must have POSTED at the same time...
i just READ the follow up, of the story...
as to the first part:
My brother and his friend died after falling through while ice fishing. It was horrible.
i've been to marquette, by the way... i did not know
you were from?? there...
my very very late, condolences, and wishes of some
kind of comfort to you...
it's been a few years, since my auntie dies, and each time i pass
the pond here, i STILL think of her...
she was a really neat lady, and wonderful auntie,
and special sister to my mom...
again, thanks for sharing...
yes--
WARN folks, even if they do not like...
(MY dad, who did not open up, much, shared a childhood story,
where he fell through the ice, skating... i wish he would
have shared more detail, but, he did not-- he got
home safe, was all he said... knowing my dad, it must
have been an awful truama though... yet-- all his life
he took 'pains' and care, that we may not have seen, as kid,
to make sure we were as SAFE as he could do, for us... a good man
that i loved) ...
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