:: SuperTopo Rock Climbing Discussion Topic

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List

This thread has been locked

Messages 1 - 20 of total 22 in this topic

<< First | < Previous | Show All | Next > | Last >>

Lorenzo

Trad climber

Oregon

Jan 21, 2015 - 12:57pm PT

You have a lot of time on your hands, don't you?

Under Achiever

Trad climber

Los Angeles

Jan 21, 2015 - 01:04pm PT

@lorenzo -- There are few people better qualified to post something like this, than Mr.Herson.

bhilden

Trad climber

Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO

Jan 21, 2015 - 01:11pm PT

As a bit of perspective, in the 70's when the Valley aid routes were being free-climbed there never was much of an ethic. Some people free climbed the route and others nailed it. About the only complaint I heard from free climbers was that aid climbers sometimes removed the pins that the free climbers had placed as fixed protection. This mostly happened when they were working a route.

NutAgain!

Trad climber

South Pasadena, CA

Jan 21, 2015 - 01:13pm PT

d) Do aid climbers now climb clean what free climbers nailed?

Should the pre-placed beaks from the free effort be fixed gear?
Who polices which fixed gear is ok to remain? (This would affect the feasibility of aid climbers doing it without nailing)

bvandewa

climber

Jan 21, 2015 - 01:14pm PT

The whole "style" of the Dawn wall can be debated in my opinion.

At the end of the day, they had teams to resupply them, setup their camp, remove their camp, etc.

Basically, I could take a "hard cliff" and decide that I want to send the whole cliff from left to right exactly in that order and I can try each pitch as many times as I want.

Still a wonderful achievement but I don't really see the "Big wall" component.

Don Paul

Big Wall climber

Denver, Colorado

Jan 21, 2015 - 01:14pm PT

I thought there already was a rule that once a route was being climbed clean, no more nailing is allowed. This is why I will probably never climb the Shield. I think about 2-lobe cam placements in square pin scars, up there on that headwall .... geez. Isn't Zodiac supposed to be a clean climb now? I remember being gripped on the second half of the nipple pitch, and I was nailing to my heart's content.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Jan 21, 2015 - 01:31pm PT

Pretty funny stuff Mr Herson! Oh the tangled web we weave.

@Don Just cause some idiot C4s an A2 doesn't mean I have to. If it goes c2+ though.... best pony up.

Last person who gave me sh#t for nailing on el cap took a 50 foot zipper with crater finish on the pitch I just nailed. My exact comment while leading the pitch above, and maybe two seconds after he decked was.. "so much for clean aid."

Then I offered to help rescue.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Jan 21, 2015 - 01:49pm PT

b) Do aid climbers now return that respect for free climbers by not nailing those shared pitches? Nailing on those pitches will down grade what arguably will go down as one of the most historical and significant free climbs ever.

I am all for nailing. Can't wait till that think is an 11c, so I could start projecting it. Guys! Get on it!

:)

couchmaster

climber

Jan 21, 2015 - 02:20pm PT

You see what's going on here? Herson, who climbs more than he talks, will be bagging the 2nd ascent next good weather day with his kids while we argue this over in our dank cubicles the next 2 years.

Savy move there. Savy. Respect.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Jan 21, 2015 - 04:01pm PT

Not fair, his kids are too strong and those "razor sharp crimps" will be like big jugs for them. Won't count!

Waiting til people put a lot of pitons and enhance the hooks, than it is all mine!

Texplorer

Trad climber

Sacramento

Jan 21, 2015 - 04:18pm PT

Pssst.. . .Tom is gone. . . .you can hammer whatever you want.

MH2

Boulder climber

Andy Cairns

Jan 21, 2015 - 06:00pm PT

Savy move there.

Agreed.

Any post which hinges on the word 'presumably' and which contains the phrase, "what free climbers nailed," is not to be taken seriously.

Mike Bolte

Trad climber

Planet Earth

Jan 21, 2015 - 06:26pm PT

good questions Jim. I particularly wonder about b). For sure that free climbing would get easier with more nailing and Tommy and Kevin's route would never be repeated as they did it.

For a shorter route closer to the ground, the standard that was more-or-less adhered to was once it was free-climbed, it was bad form to get on the route with a hammer.

cragnshag

Social climber

san joser

Jan 21, 2015 - 06:33pm PT

Aid climbers don't need to nail on Mescalito. It can be climbed clean with modern gear/tricks by mere mortals.

shipoopoi

Big Wall climber

oakland

Jan 21, 2015 - 11:42pm PT

the hardest pitches are on the traverse that tommy pioneered. doesn't matter if a few more pins are pounded on mescalito, those aren't the crux pitches, and significantly change anything...plus mescalito gets done cleaner and cleaner by modern day parties now with their advanced gear and stuff. that's part of the beauty of the climb, it should retain its difficulty and rating throughout its history.

ss

James

climber

My twin brother's laundry room

Jan 22, 2015 - 12:03am PT

An aid climber hooked and ripped a hold off on the bottom section of the free Dawn Wall.

Delhi Dog

climber

Good Question...

Jan 22, 2015 - 12:47am PT

Who polices which fixed gear is ok to remain?

Just a guess...

Hudon...?

kidding:-)

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Jan 22, 2015 - 08:24am PT

It's a good question.

I'm firmly in the camp that once it goes free, nailing should cease. But I'm probably on the far end of the opinion curve, I don't even think people should be clean aiding popular hard free routes (Moonlight Buttress most common example).

The obvious question to me if I follow my own position to it's logical end is, "well what happens when the wall routes have almost all gone free, and the entirety El Cap is essentially off limits to aid climbers?"

I don't know about the other routes that it veers onto, but when we did Mescalito the hammer got used maybe 3 times, and that was 12? years ago ('02 or '03, have to get out the journal, and IIRC that was only replacing heads that pulled one of the last couple pitches. No need to drive iron on Mescalito, IME.