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| Messages 1 - 9 of total 9 in this topic |
mcKbill
Boulder climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 15, 2006 - 08:57pm PT
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"U.S. officials say suspects also discussed bombing subways and setting a wildfire in California."
LA Times story
So, how easy would this be to do and not get caught? I suppose it would be easy to distinguish fires set on purpose from natural ones, and perhaps even the careless starts from cigs, and fireworks.
How could it be defended?
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Anastasia
Trad climber
Near a mountain, CA
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Jul 15, 2006 - 09:37pm PT
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You can't defend terrorism, that's the beauty of it. You can only control your reaction. If you are terrorized, they've accomplished their intent. If you look at them unfazed and strike them back harder; they might decide that you are not worth the trouble.
It's like dealing with bullies... They won't stop picking on you until you whip them in front of everyone so they lose respect.
The international playing field is not much different then an elementary playground.
The world's maturity as a group is still in fourth grade, just sit in during one senator session and you'll get the drift. It's pretty funny if you look at it the right way.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jul 15, 2006 - 11:36pm PT
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I was thinking about this same subject the other day while hiking in the hills above Burbank with my son. A small plane flew over us and along the crest of the Verdugo Mts. What would prevent a sicko from flying a small plane and dropping road flares out the window as they fly? I'm not a pilot and dont know FAA regs but I would doubt anyone is checking every small plane that takes off and I would doubt a flare dropped out of a plane would be very visible.
I work for the Los Angeles Fire Dept and I know that on days when we get just a couple of good going brush fires it sends the city into a spin, it sucks up resources real fast. A scenario like the one mentioned above would quickly tax the emergency resources of the city.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Jul 15, 2006 - 11:39pm PT
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wouldn't be that hard.
especially for a domestic "terrorist".
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jul 15, 2006 - 11:45pm PT
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Batrock,
I have posted that exact idea on this site a few times. A small aircraft flying over the San Gabriels on a Santa Ana day with a few hundred road flares.
I usualy delete the post as I do not want a terrorist to google the idea.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
Near a mountain, CA
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Jul 16, 2006 - 12:28am PT
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Yup, thought of it too. Seeing many local firefighters from Ventura in San Bernardino reminds me that they are NOT in Ventura... Since they are having problems containing this fire despite the help, imagine if we all were burning at once...
Looks like we need a National plan of defense for such a large calamity.
I also know that if the government responded in the similar manner as the New Orleans disaster... We are sitting ducks.
What we should do is shape it like Greece. Everyone on my home island that can lift a shovel fights the fire. We have been taught this since grade school. The reason for this is that the island is too small for any other effective response towards fire. In California's case, we are too big for any other response...
Too bad we make it too complicated for local citizen assistance. Too bad we are spoiled and are taught that safety is someone else's job instead of a shared responsibility.
Maybe when the world shrinks from the loss of oil sources we might wake up.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jul 16, 2006 - 01:33am PT
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The fires we get here in CA and the west are more than any fire agency is able to handle. The fires basicly will run there course despite the efforts of those fighting them. The fire in Yucca Valley is only now starting to slow because of humidity increasing and calm winds, which slows the rate of burn. When we go out to these large campaign fires we dont try to put the fire out, we set up structure protection on houses we think we can defend, let the fire blow through, then extinguish the house or structure if it caught on fire. Last year in Bell Cyn we got overun, ducked inside a house let it blow over then ran out and put the house out. Hose lines and shovels are like pissing in the wind on a large fire.
If a terrorist decided to set several simultaneous fires during a critical time we would be screwed no matter how many people we threw at it. It probably won't be a act of terror but some dude getting his rocks off.
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mcKbill
Boulder climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2006 - 07:57am PT
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I had never considered the possibility of flares dropped from a small airplane. I would like to have read that, but I can understand Juan's reason for deleting the thread. I also did not think about how several fires could weaken the emergency response systems. Such attacks could have deep implications, and would be relatively cheap, and 'safe' for the fire starters.
I like the one-for-all/all-for-one approach of solving the problem. At least it sounds great, but having every able-bodied person go out to fight a fire in our society is not practical or safe without specialized training. Looking-out for the problem is different, and perhaps by discussing it we risk informing would-be terrorists of a vulnerability that affects our forrests and valuable property. What if we applied the model Anastasia discussed to the problem of detecting such attacks?
Would it be practical to inform the public of ways to identify potential fire-setters? If so, what else would we look for?
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jul 16, 2006 - 11:23am PT
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Unless you have stood in the path of one of these infernos you cant appreciate the power they have and how a "all for one and one for all" tactic wont work, and in fact would probably kill thousands.
Have you ever noticed over the last several decades how the fires in the Santa Monica Mtns. never go out during a Santa Anna wind event? The fire will eventually go out when it hits the Great Pacific Ocean Firebreak. Think back to all the fires in the past decades. Where does the fire stop? Either at the 101 Fwy or the ocean, usualy the ocean. Fewer homes are destroyed because of tighter building codes like no wood shingles, no wood siding, brush clearance around the property. These things don't make for the most attractive homes but they will help make your home more defensible.
We, as in the fire service and forest service have also made the fire danger worse and only in the last 10 years have we realized it. Traditionally when a fire starts we jump right on it and put it out. What this does is cause unnaturally large amounts of growth (fuel) to grow unchecked. Now when we do get a big fire it burns into an area that has not seen fire in over 50-100 years and the fuel load is massive. Fire is or was a natural part of the eco system until man jumped in and started putting it out. If fires burn every few years in the same place then the fire will burn in much lighter fuels and burn slower. People who decide to live in the mountains need to realize that fire is and will be a constant threat.
One last thing, take a look at pictures of the Sierra's, (look at Fire in Sierra Nevada Forests by Gruell) lets even say Yosemite taken 100 years ago compare that with a a picture taken in the same place today. Now do that all over California and you would be shocked at the massive amount of overgrowth that has been allowed to happen because of aggressive fire attack. We have built our own furnace and decided to live in it.
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