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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 7, 2012 - 01:08am PT
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Over a month ago, I posted the following two photos in this thread…
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1705787/Hand-drill-RAWL-vs-DAKOTA
…and the photos of Aric’s new drill design seemed to get the attention of a few people.
Hand Drill Testing
A couple of weeks ago, I finally managed to get out to do some testing with the new drill and also did a comparison between one of my old McDevitt hammers and a new A5/D5 hammer.
I was psyched to give Aric’s drill a try but was a little worried about a few things. I didn’t know how the upper knurled aluminum piece would hold up to missed hammer blows and I wondered how well the removable striking piece could sustain repeated hammering without ill effects. (In conjunction with a wrench on the collet nut, the knurled aluminum piece is used to tighten the collet.)
After drilling a few test holes (both 17/64” and 25/64” diameter HSS, as well as 3/8" SDS), it was clear that some changes to the design would be necessary. For starters, what seemed like a really cool idea of limiting drilling shock by having the rubber grip mounted to a spring-loaded aluminum sleeve turned out to not be of any use. When drilling, the spring-loaded mechanism never activated because the drill is pushed towards the rock with the hand that is holding the drill, as opposed to the mechanism sliding on the holder during each hammer strike if the drill were pulled away from the rock. The drill holder still retained a solid, static feel, just like a Hurricane or Rawl holder, etc.
While drilling, the rubber grip kept sliding down the aluminum sleeve because it isn’t glued in place, so it continually needed to be pushed back to its regular position on the drill. It was not glued because to tighten the striking piece to the shaft of the drill holder, the grip must be removed in order to access the wrench flats on the shaft. The idea behind the removable striking piece is that it can be replaced after excessive wear and mushrooming. However, the threaded striking piece loosened repeatedly with hammer strikes, although loc-tite might have helped with this problem. I am still skeptical of a striking piece that has a threaded attachment to the holder because of all of the abuse that it takes from hammering. And I definitely let the hammer “talk” to the drill while testing, as I also do with my Hurricanes when drilling while climbing. After drilling a fifth hole (I didn’t drill any of the holes to full depth during the testing…) it became apparent that the striking piece had heard enough from my hammer. I removed it to find that the threads were damaged, with cracks on two sides of the piece. The threads on the end of the drill holder were also damaged. So, that was the end of abusing the boulder of granodiorite that I chose for testing.
The nylon wrist loop seemed to work fine although I worry about durability of the metal tag washer and the nylon attachment with regard to missed hammer blows. (See wrist-loop/leash comments/questions below.)
The ER-16 collet did seem to work much better than the DA-series collet in the Hurricane, and provided greater clamping force on the bit. It seems like the ER-16 collet will be an improvement for use in a hand drill and will make it less likely for the bit to loosen while drilling, given the same torque on the collet nut (as the Hurricane). I did notice some issues with uneven collet compression, but Aric has already solved this simple problem. The grip on the drill feels great and is MUCH more comfortable than the shorter grip on the Hurricane. Hopefully this longer grip length can be retained in a future drill design.
In conclusion, the new drill did have a few problems, but that’s what testing is for in the first place – to prove what works and what doesn’t work. Aric and I have discussed these problems over the phone and he said to go ahead and post a report on the testing. He has some new ideas for another drill design and I think that a little more prototype work and more testing will result in a highly functional product that will be an improvement on existing hand drills. Stay tuned.
A few photos of the testing:
Without any glue to secure it in place, the rubber grip continually crept down the aluminum sleeve on the drill,
leaving the knurled aluminum piece loose and free to spin
The disassembled parts after testing the drill – notice the small cracks in the removable striking piece on the left
Notice the uneven collet compression when the collet nut is tightened – a minor issue that has been solved
The test boulder, with Aric’s drill, two hammers, and bolting gear; D5 hammer on the left, McDevitt hammer on the right
Comparing the two different drills and the two different hammers
As far as a wrist-loop goes, I like the cable wrist-loop on my Hurricane drills and replace the cable from time to time as needed, due to wear during use (sloppy hammering). Some climbers don’t like using a wrist-loop on a drill and prefer a leash that is attached to either a shoulder sling or their harness. The idea behind the leash, it seems, is so that if you fall while drilling and the bit stays in the hole, your hand is not caught in the wrist-loop and susceptible to injury. My personal feeling is that if I am drilling on lead from a stance that is at all dicey, I am drilling with a 17/64” HSS bit (for 1/4” buttonheads) and if I fall while drilling, the bit will most likely snap without too much force. If I am drilling a 25/64” hole (for 3/8” bolts), I most likely have a pretty good stance and am not too worried about falling and having my hand caught in the wrist-loop while hanging from the drill bit. Once a hole is deep enough, I might weight the drill bit slightly (both sizes) in order to rest if need be, but wouldn’t want to put any sudden force on the bit in the event of a slip or fall.
What do all of you think? Do you prefer a wrist-loop or a leash on a hand drill and why? If using a wrist-loop, do you ever worry about what would happen if you fell while drilling? Aric designed the attachment of the nylon wrist-loop to the tag washer such that it is not full-strength and would break in the event of a fall, to prevent injury to your drill hand. Thoughts?
We are very interested to hear any comments and/or suggestions that any of you may have regarding the design of this new hand drill, and hand drills in general. Let’s hear it!
Special thanks go out to Aric for his ideas, motivation, and time spent devising and producing a new hand drill prototype. Keep up the great work, Aric!!! :)
Hammer Testing
This outing also seemed like a good opportunity to compare hammer performance. I swapped back and forth between my well-used McDevitt hammer and a new D5, while drilling with both Aric’s drill and a Hurricane drill. To me, there is an obvious difference between the two hammers. The McD hammer is a little heavier than the D5, which provides a little more “ooompf” when drilling (as well as placing or removing pitons). This heavier weight speeds up drilling time, as long as you don’t get carried away and snap drill bits.
The McD hammer has a noticeably smoother rebound than the D5 when drilling. In addition to a harsher feel, the D5 has a sharper rebound (more snappy) and the hammer bounces off of the drill holder more than a McD hammer. I’m not sure if this has to do with a forged versus milled head, or the head/handle attachment design, or what exactly it may be due to.
With the weight-forward balance of the head on the McD hammer, it is much easier to control while drilling – this weight-forward balance helps to prevent the head from twisting out of the swinging plane during rebound. I found that the D5 head tends to twist during rebound, making the hammer more difficult to control during fast drilling, and requiring a firmer grip. When drilling fast with the McD hammer, I can let it float more, which requires less hammering effort/control. The tag washer that connects the wrist loop on Aric’s drill took a beating from a missed blow with the D5 hammer due to this control issue, although inaccurate hammer blows are certainly not uncommon, as a quick look at my Hurricane drills will confirm.
In my opinion, the A5/D5 is a good, solid hammer that is durable and will last a long time, but I still prefer the McDevitt hammer and think that it is the best climbing hammer that I have ever used. It would be great to do another production run of this fine hammer and see it available to climbers again.
-Bryan
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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omg, fricking grid bolter!!!
;)
thx for the write up B!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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I always girth hitch a runner to the drill loop, mostly for ease of wrist cranking.
I prefer the cable loop, more durable, and you can use your hurricane as a chock/nut and clip in to the full strength wrist loop. Just sayin:0
I think you are spot on with the comments regarding the head of the D5 "Pinging" off, and hard to control. It was very hard to get a rythm due to lack of control. Probably cuz I have used a BD tenpenny...I drilled about a half dozen 3/8's with the D5, and then retired it to aid climbing to save my elbow.
The D5 absolutely rules for nailing and general destruction you might find on a wall. Heavy, and with that long handle.....Nothing but dust.
Thanks for the write up B. I will be interested in that E16 finding a permanant home soon.
Great start Aric! I dig the design, and know you will pull something killer out soon.
BRING BACK THE MCDIZZLE!!!!
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2012 - 02:41am PT
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Nice cable work, Mucci! The yellow heat-shrink looks slick!
Just a quick note… Stick with the 7x7 (galvy or stainless). 7x19 is more flexible and so it won’t hold a “flare” or bend at the sleeve where the two ends of the cable extend from the sleeve. If the cable loop doesn’t flare (7x19), the cable pinches the groove in the Hurricane and creates more friction. This means that the wrist-loop does not spin as freely on the drill, making for more wrist-loop hang-ups while drilling. Once the drill holder loop is swaged, I grab the crimped sleeve with a pair of pliers, place the opposite side of the drill/cable loop against something solid (workbench, etc.) and then push the sleeve towards the drill holder such that it flares out the two sides of the cable loop. This creates more of a circular loop instead of a teardrop loop, which makes for easier drilling with less cable friction on the drill.
Another advantage of the 7x7 is that you can put a bend in the cable such that the wrist-loop is oriented properly and fits your wrist comfortably – this can also have an effect on how well the cable spins on the drill and cable/drill friction. 7x19 is less cooperative and tends to keep its original shape after swaging.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Interesting you see such a difference between the 2 hammers for drilling. Wondering what a Forrest wall hammer or a BD would do next to those 2.
It makes me wonder what John Middendorfs time of 47 seconds to handdrill and place a 1/4" bolt on El Cap would be if John had used the McDevitt hammer.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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One addendum, Bryan- Thanks to Luke for allowing us to tinker with this design in his Hurricane thread! :-)
Couple comments while I'm taking a much needed break:
 Seems I guessed wrong about how people hold the drill... I figured they'd keep the tip slightly off the bottom of the hole, in which case the spring/sleeve would have room to work and the grip wouldn't need glue. Oh well, solution looking for a problem and frankly I'm happy to see it dropped from the next revision as it was a PITA to make.
The uneven clamping of the collet was due to a manufacturing error that lead to the taper in the nut not being concentric with the threads/taper in the holder. I have a new process worked out to solve this.
I read "One Move Too Many" a while back, and all the photos of degloved hands and fingers left quite the impression on me (as did getting my hand caught in a funkness cable once), hence the thin cord for the wrist loop.
I totally screwed the pooch on the material for the striking piece. I thought case hardened 1144 would work, but it's apparently nowhere near tough enough. Next version will likely be 4140 or S7 taken to ~HRC35.
There's actually supposed to be an aluminum ring on the collet nut as well, which would make the drill tool-less. I hadn't found time to make the ring when Bryan pinged me to see if I had ever finished getting a proto built, so sent him the not-quite-finished model I had on hand.
Ok, break's over. Thanks so much for the feedback, Bryan!
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Grampa
Trad climber
OC in So Cal
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I've been away for a long time. Is the McD hammer still being made?
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
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“Wondering what a Forrest wall hammer or a BD would do next to those 2.”
Not sure on the Forrest hammer, as I have never used one. Looks like the handle would be uncomfortable, though, considering that I hold the handle at about mid-length or less for drilling. Wood seems to be the best material for a handle. The fiberglass handle might need a little (mummy) tape! :)
The Chouinard/BD hammer is waaay too light for drilling (or nailing, etc.) and the striking surface is too small which means that you have to be extra precise when swinging to be accurate. It’s an expensive tack hammer that is better suited for hanging pictures on the walls of one's house.
“It makes me wonder what John Middendorfs time of 47 seconds to handdrill and place a 1/4" bolt on El Cap would be if John had used the McDevitt hammer.”
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1350513&msg=1350950#msg1350950
Wasn’t he using a much heavier hammer, like a mini-sledge, or something of the sort? Maybe John will chime in to let us know.
Yeah, Aric… I should have posted a link to the older thread where we were discussing the drill design.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1350513&msg=1362224#msg1362224
Thanks, Luke! :)
“Is the McD hammer still being made?”
No, a machinist by the name of Bill Forshee did a small run of them in the 90’s, but that was it. Dan McDevitt and I worked on the design. Theron has been sitting on a brand new one for quite a while now, so maybe one of these days we can look into reviving production of the hammer. I wouldn’t mind having another one, Mucci seems quite interested, and Couchmaster could surely use one in his impressive collection. Anyone else interested in obtaining a McDevitt hammer?
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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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I would buy a McD hammer.
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Grampa
Trad climber
OC in So Cal
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I would also buy one.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Can't....Resist....Tractor....Pull......I'm in too. Although I "need" another hammer like I need hemorrhoids...
In In In.
Thanks for the link. The link has John getting the 47 seconds at Cochise.
(47 seconds for a 1/4" bolt, drilled and placed in coarse granite--during a timed contest at Cochise's Stronghold),
Bryan, what are you doing for drill bits?
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mctwisted
Social climber
paradise
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good work Bryan, here's a shot you might like, wish i had a shot of Werner with his old pontiac lemans, hooking up to bolts to be tested with about 30'-50' of slack rope and gassing it till it came tight and broke something, one time the broken bolt/hanger rebounded and came back to go right through the license plate of that old rig. the good old days in camp 4!
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mctwisted
Social climber
paradise
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couchmaster
you can get Milwaukee 25/64th high speed drill bits on amazon (6 for $12) or you can get them at home depot. just grind a chisel edge on the end in a few minutes and your good to go, much, much faster than sds. but sds are much better for enlarging holes from 1/4 or 5/16 if replacing old bolts. the homemade chisel bits tend to bind if used for this purpose. pretty sure Bryan is using the same bits from milwaukee unless he's found something better since last year
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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FYI, Bryan and I have been kicking some drill bit designs around (tool steel, not carbide) and I'll likely be sending him some to test along with the new version of the drill. I had been hoping to have them made, but from my discussion with a tech at B&A Manufacturing (drill bit manufacturer) pricing wouldn't make sense for the small quantity I'm looking at for testing purposes and I'd be better off making them myself.
On a side note, he (the tech) is of the opinion that carbide is a really poor choice for hand drilling and the forged tool steel bits they used to make are much, much better (and worlds faster) in that application. Unfortunately they haven't made them in 20 years, so I'd have to get them as a special at $waytoomuch.
:-(
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Bryan,
I have one of Dan's hammers I bought from him in the early 90's. Never used it much though, too heavy for me. I have always used the Chouinard/BD, but moved up to the D5 last season. I really like the D5 and now that I am used to the weight, I plan on trying the McDevitt hammer this year. You are right, a heavier hammer makes the drilling go way faster. I counted around 30% less hits per bolt with the D5. The rebound is not an issue for me. I guess I just got used to it along with the weight. I tend to drill to the beat of the music in the headset. If the right song comes on it is easy to destroy the drill bit with the heavier hammer:-)
Roger
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CF
climber
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poor rock
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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I am gonna have to disagree with the need for a massive heavy hammer for nailing. I have personally over driven my share of pins with a BD hammer and little effort. The Forest Hammer is my favorite because it is lighter and avoids destroying so much rock. Plus I like to whack things more than once and with a lighter hammer I can do this and not destroy everything.
Drilling bolts is one thing, but with all the modern gear I don't really see the need for such a heavy hammer on most wall routes.
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