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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 26, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
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Was looking forward to more salacious slander.
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Gym Birdwall
Gym climber
The
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Jan 27, 2011 - 06:55pm PT
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Vultures!
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jan 28, 2011 - 12:26pm PT
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Did lightning dream go in ground up?
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jan 28, 2011 - 02:51pm PT
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Me thinks you guys have way too much time on your hands.
"The approach and relatively low angle will keep Woodfords from ever being a sport haven."
What, you didn't hear about the chair lifts going in? My astrologer assures
me the Chinese will be building them in Woodfords Canyon in just a decade or two.
(The Chinese are keen on climbing now.)
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Texplorer
Trad climber
Reno
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Jan 30, 2011 - 12:32am PT
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I was involved with the FAs of the routes marked on the pic above on the now controversial Deadwood Wall. I believe the two bolted routes involved are between the red and pink lines shown on the picture.
The rock on this wall varies from very good to some sections of gritty kitty litter but is overall pretty nice. The routes shown above were done a few months ago, ground up, with no bolts. The offwidth required little to no cleaning, the chimney had some large blocks that were trundled, and the corner still has some possibly dangerous sections that need to be cleaned up before I would turn it loose to the masses.
I am not exactly sure where the bolts or the actual bolted lines go but thought I would just add this pic to the forum. There appears to be some features where natural protection could be used for these routes however there are sections where it appears bolts would be necessary too.
As for the ethical nature of these lines I am unsure of the specific ethical standards employed at Woodfords. I am generally a proponent of the fewest bolts possible and have put up many pitches and never placed a protection bolt. Whether lines are bolted on lead or rap bolted they still result in bolts going into the rock. The end result is the same except that ground up ascents seem to get more respect.
I have seen climbs in the Woodfords area with protection bolts as well as many bolted anchors so the use of bolts here is not really a question. I know both the FAists mentioned (Laine and Alex). Both are nice people and reasonable climbers. If they have committed a slight on the area I am sure that it pales in comparison to the shenanigans that have historically taken place in this canyon. At worst I put them in the same category as Dan Osman and Ron Anderson. I seriously doubt that these lines have been climbed before and if they have the onerous is on the FAists to tell others if they want to get the credit. (If a route is climbed in the forest and no one is around, is it an FA or spray?)
The bottom line is that there appeared to be a good deal of criticism of these climbers simply because they rap bolted. Why didn't the offended parties speak with the FAists? If the ethic is to not allow rap bolting perhaps a simple discussion would deter these climbers from repeating such an offense and would avoid airing our dirty laundry so to speak in public forums. Woodfords has already endured far worse breaches of currently accepted standards and these two routes do not really change the nature of the area. As for those who say that routes are inappropriately bolted next to cracks or otherwise should probably climb the routes before passing judgment (I cannot really comment on the routes for the same reason).
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jan 30, 2011 - 02:08am PT
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You mean there's two lines between there?
Ok, one of them is a squeeze job for sure. I never understood why someone would want to put all their bolts in one basket anyway.
I couldn't give a sh#t what style these routes went in as. If they want to rap bolt, that's their loss. If they bolted the cracks, that's bad ethics and is not to be tolerated... at all. I can't tell from the photo either way. What is apparent from the photo is that two routes is kinda a squeeze, and grid bolting, or "developing" as some like to call it is a grey area between bad ethics and poor style. These dudes should probably show some more restraint in that regard.
But if you're all so sure that this is a clear case of a violation of ethics for the area, this is what you need to do.
1) Contact the bolters (or try to) and set up a date to meet up at the base.
2) Climb the route and determine if usable cracks are indeed bolted. Do this by carrying a rack a wrench and a hammer. If when climbing the route you get a good piece of pro and there's a bolt nearby, unscrew and remove the hanger then chop the bolt.
3) Upon returning to the ground, explain to the bolting party why you chopped their bolts. Actually, no explanation needed, you just showed them by example.
From what I've heard about the route. The cracks aren't bolted... It's a mixed route.
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Texplorer
Trad climber
Reno
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Jan 30, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
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I enjoyed the "hired gun" comment.
Coming into this discussion a bit later I did not see the previous photos but thought I would contribute one of my pics for the discussion. I am not trying to defend anyone per se but am just putting it all in perspective with the facts I know about.
I have admiration for Dano and vision of climbing that he created. Though I have not met or know as much about Ron, I respect his concern for preserving the ethics of the area and the contributions he has made. I agree with promotion of a ground up ethic and agree that when placing bolts, extreme thought and care should be taken before the bit hits the rock. Even a ground up squeeze job could be unwarranted.
I am sure that these two climbers will be more thoughtful about placing bolts here and other places as well.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jan 30, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
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I know Bill Griffin lurks. From time to time.
I wish he'd post up.
Bill, put down that slide rule of yours
and post up, you ol coot!
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Texplorer
Trad climber
Reno
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Jan 30, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
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Maybe he has a Moratorium on internet posting. ;)
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Aerili
climber
Reno, NV
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Jan 31, 2011 - 12:04am PT
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I really like this shenanigans that allow all other shenanigans argument people keep coming up with though, it's like the childhood "but Johnny got to" defense.
That's why precedents (even one or two) hold so much weight in courts of law, right? Cause they're so meaningless?
More like saying the statement that Epoxy Wall and "those 60 other contrived, crappy routes we omitted from the guide" are somehow "just different and not held to the same standard" as this one single line is a complete logical fallacy.
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BurnRockBurn
climber
South of Black Rock City (CC,NV)
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Jan 31, 2011 - 11:54am PT
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As someone who has been part of putting up dozens of routes there (mostly as belay bitch) I can "testify" that ground up is the norm there. My first two routes I had to rap in the clean out the cracks to even get gear in. You may condem me for doing this but this was the first routes I ever put up. I did lead them after the cleaning, on gear.
After meeting chim chim and working with him over the years there I can tell you it's ground up, on gear. If we found that the route needed a bolt due no gear placement and safety of future partys then we would go back and put a bolt in. Woodfords is a huge place and many styles have gone into puttin up routes.
I know of a perfectly good bolted 5.7 crack that is bolted up there at "bandit buttress". This was done in 91 and Ron I'm sure this area is one of the 60 routes that didn't make your guide. Don't agree with the bolting of his crack but have taken people there to learn to trad lead on it. If they get sketched with the gear placement, clip a bolt and move on. It's been there for 20 years so leave it be.
Shawn
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jstan
climber
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Jan 31, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
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Cave Rock?
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Aerili
climber
Reno, NV
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I don't have to be around or present for a precedent to be established, Ron. And I didn't miss any points. Routes with bolts or not, what is the difference if they are contrived and crappy? I still think your defense is a logical fallacy and I could even name which ones, but whatever. Doesn't really change anything and I'm not trying to pick a giant fight, just making a point that things don't fall into different categories just because different people did them (whether you agree with it or not doesn't mean it isn't true or valid). Other than that, we probably agree on more things than we disagree.
On another note, there are signs of other people out there in Woodfords doing new stuff too....people probably none of us know and with an apparent style difference as well. Hmmm.
See you out there.
P.S. Oh and Zach, how would you know if any route developing newcomers are listening to their community or not? You might be surprised, but since you really don't know these people, you are only making assumptions....which is a very erroneous interpretation.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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What's up with CR these days? Two years ago I was working at a gear shop in KB and kept hearing stories of people climbing there, with nobody caring.
Heck, I lived 200 yards from the parking lot and used to see people climbing that route between the tunnels pretty regularly. That was summer/fall of '08.
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Aerili
climber
Reno, NV
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Ron, certainly I did not say that everything should be treated like Epoxy Wall (AND I have never thought that). What I was saying was along the lines of the posts by that guy wes -- that it appears that your and your friends' routes (be they "outdoor gym routes" or the other numerous "contrived, crappy routes" you mentioned were put up) are somehow in a different category and less criticizable (if that is a word) than this one single route....which you called out as contrived, among other things, from a few low resolution photos, despite not having climbed it.
I don't know if this route is contrived or not (I haven't climbed it). What I think is that this single route should not be held up as a pariah or ridiculous scandal, considering what other things you and your friends (and perhaps other people you don't know) have already done in that area. And I believe (through first hand knowledge) the people who put that route up are listening to and considering the community feedback and certainly desire to create good quality routes (of whatever kind, but probably mostly trad) that others will enjoy in a style that is appropriate.
Anyway, that is all I have to say about this as I hope I've made myself more clear (and my life is unfortunately busy, too busy to really hash things out on the Interweb a lot these days).... not to mention Zach has pulled out all his zingers for me, so clearly I've been told.
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jstan
climber
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Interesting that even within the group itself the ewall was treated as a "secret."
Hunkered down awaiting the wrath of god?
SDTTACrab'sA?
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BurnRockBurn
climber
South of Black Rock City (CC,NV)
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Those lines at High Energy are amazing....the ones I can climb. Chim put up a nice little area to the right of high energy called bedrock. One 10c bolted route then you can TR 3-4 flared cracks. The cracks kind of remind me of the Aprons flared cracks.
Shawn
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| Messages 1 - 19 of total 19 in this topic |
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