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crøtch
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 29, 2010 - 04:12am PT
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I'm in the market for a used 4x4 van for road trips but I'm not a car guy and don't really know which engines to seek out or avoid. Any input on the various E-350 engine options would be appreciated. How is the 6.0 Diesel?
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snaps10
Mountain climber
Visalia, CA
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Apr 29, 2010 - 04:42am PT
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I'm more fond of the 7.3L
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 29, 2010 - 05:41am PT
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Hey Crotch, how are ya?
What model year(s) are you considering?
Some of the Ford diesel engines are great. Others have had their share of problems. Do some careful research before you buy. If you plan to drive a lot of miles, then diesel may be the way to go. A 4x4 van is heavy and not aerodynamic, consequently thirsty. The diesel engine will give you 50% to 100% better mileage than my 1997 E-350 Triton V-10 gas guzzler.
See this link and my discussion with "F10" (James):
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1115348&tn=20#msg1116352
Ford diesel engines:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Power_Stroke_engine#6.0
You might want to include the E-250 (3/4 ton) in your search for 4x4 vans. That should double the number of 4x4 vans on the used market which meet your criteria. The E-250 is plenty strong.
One of the other significant considerations is that it is a reputable/quality 4 wheel drive conversion. There are only about 4 companies, that I know of, doing conversions in the past decade. Quigley in PA has probably done the most conversions. They use front coil springs. Advanced Four Wheel Drive in Utah is probably the second biggest conversion company. Their conversions utilized front leaf springs (don't know about current production). http://www.advanced4x4vans.com/
You probably know about Sportsmobile camper conversions and have seen their list of used vans (at outrageous prices):
http://sportsmobile.com/z-PO_calif.html
Send me an e-mail if I can be of help with other questions.
-John S.
Baja, last weekend.
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mastadon
Trad climber
quaking has-been
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Apr 29, 2010 - 07:07am PT
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I have both the 6.0 and 7.3 in a fleet that I manage. The 6.0 has whupass power but the 7.3 is more dependable.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Apr 29, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
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You want a tiny saab 2 banger for it.
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crøtch
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
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Hi Juan,
Thanks for the input. I'm doing well and looking forward to the day (14 months out) when my gal has time to climb again. Right now we're looking at a 2005 and a 2008 E350, both with Quigley 4x4 conversion and 6.0L Diesel. We've got a year to work on the rig so I hope to do some of the interior myself, and maybe have a pop top put on by Sportsmobile at a later time.
I read the thread you linked, but my knowledge of engines and 4x4s is as deep as you would expect for someone who's car knowledge comes from listening to Car Talk a dozen times. I'd appreciate the fuel economy of a diesel, but what am I giving up? Why did you go with the Triton? The 4x4 with locking differentials on my Tacoma has always gotten me out of trouble. I wonder how the Quigley setup would compare. Not sure what leaf vs coil 4x4 is all about. I'll shoot you an email this weekend.
How did those dirt roads hold up to the El Nino rains? Is the Throne still there after the earthquake? :-)
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BBWolf
climber
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Apr 29, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
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I'm not in Juan's league on this but after my research I decided on a v10 triton (in an Excursion - 3/4 ton chassis). I looked at the diesels and found folks waxing about the 7.3 reliability but lack of MPGs and the 6.0 being unreliable for the first 2 yrs but later much better. I really wanted to convince myself to buy a diesel - even going as far as saying I would convert to bio-diesel etc.
I did the math and found the extra cost associated with diesel (purchase premium, high mileage on used rigs vs low mileage gas rigs at same price, oil changes, etc...only penciled out if I hauled a lot of weight a long ways.
Not being the case (I only drive the excursion for family vacations hauling a light trailer) I decided on the uber bombproof triton v10.
BTW I did not mods and just got 14.8mpg on a long highway run. 10+ hauling a trailer.
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exposeur
Trad climber
california?
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Apr 29, 2010 - 05:33pm PT
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i converted an 84 6.9L diesel e350 to run on veg oil with a 55 gallon drum as a fuel tank. that gets me about 850 miles at a time for free. it's not a 4x4, unfortunately, but they're around. i would look near canada, where they actually have diesels.
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snaps10
Mountain climber
Visalia, CA
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Apr 29, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
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I guess I could expand a little on my answer. I like the reliability of the 7.3. Our current rig is a 2002 F250 4x4 with 216,000 and it pulls like the day it rolled off the line. Only thing we've ever done was new brake rotors and steering joints. Everything else is routine maintenance.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 30, 2010 - 06:51am PT
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Hi Juan,
Thanks for the input. I'm doing well and looking forward to the day (14 months out) when my gal has time to climb again. Right now we're looking at a 2005 and a 2008 E350, both with Quigley 4x4 conversion and 6.0L Diesel. We've got a year to work on the rig so I hope to do some of the interior myself, and maybe have a pop top put on by Sportsmobile at a later time.
I read the thread you linked, but my knowledge of engines and 4x4s is as deep as you would expect for someone who's car knowledge comes from listening to Car Talk a dozen times. I'd appreciate the fuel economy of a diesel, but what am I giving up? Why did you go with the Triton? The 4x4 with locking differentials on my Tacoma has always gotten me out of trouble. I wonder how the Quigley setup would compare. Not sure what leaf vs coil 4x4 is all about. I'll shoot you an email this weekend.
How did those dirt roads hold up to the El Nino rains? Is the Throne still there after the earthquake? :-) Crotch,
The disadvantages of the diesel include: increased noise, higher maintenance cost, initial cost of the engine option, more weight over the front axle. You might do some reading on line for more info.
The advantages are primarily: better fuel mileage, lots of torque for towing, longevity of the engine block.
I went with the Triton V10 simply because I stumbled upon an incredible deal on the E-350, $20K when it was only 3 or 4 years old and never off-roaded. Gas was $1.40 then. The hideous gas mileage of my rig is balanced by the low miles I put on it, all recreation. Trips are usually 200 to 300 miles, 2x per month. Zero city/commuting miles. Only about 5K to 6K miles per year.
You might pencil out the diesel vs. gasoline engine issue in cost-benefit terms:
How many miles do you expect to drive per year? How fat is your recreation budget? Driving 10k miles with a 5.4L gas engine @ 12 mpg = 833 gal. X $3.10 = $2583
Driving 10k miles with a diesel @ 16 mpg = 625 gal. X $3.10 = $1938
That saves $645 per year. Increased maintenance costs will chew up some of that savings.
Every person will come up with their own conclusion. I'd say the diesel doesn't pencil out unless driving exceeds 15k miles per year. If purchased new, that number goes up due to the higher intial cost of a diesel engine.
Keep in mind that there are a number of things affecting fuel mileage: the lack of aerodynamics of a 4x4 undercarriage, suspension lift, big tires, roof racks, added weight of gear, etc.
With all that dirty air, keeping the cruising speed down a few mph will help a lot.
The 5.4L V8 gas engine has enough power (unless towing heavy trailers): 255 hp and massive 350 lb. ft. of torque.
The 6.8L V10 has more power, but is thirsty due to the larger displacement.
Axle gear ratios play a big part in fuel efficiency. That determines the engine rpm at a given speed. Higher revs use more gas. 3.73 gears are a good compromise of economy vs. pulling power with 32" or 33" tall tires.
I wouldn't want to compare a Tacoma to an E-350 for off road capability.
A Tacoma is relatively nimble. The E-350 is a couple thousand pounds heavier, with a really long wheelbase. The suspension is stiff and doesn't articulate well. The approach angle is not so bad, but the departure angle is terrible, particularly if it is a Super Van model (extended rear). It is definitely not a rock crawler. Will hold it's own in more open terrain.
Adding at least one locking differential (to the rear) will improve traction considerably. Front and rear lockers will make it true four wheel drive.
The roads in the Sierra de Juarez have alternated between a snowy mess and a muddy mess, of fun! One of the biggest aftershocks had an epicenter nearly under the Throne. There may be some new splitter cracks down there...
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Apr 30, 2010 - 07:20am PT
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Could not wait to get rid of my 7.3L Turbo F-250.Extra 4000 $ brand new.
Sixteen quart oil changes,pain in the ass,also gotta find a big pan,and get rid of it.More expensive oil filter too.
Only truck I ever had that stranded me,but the rest are all Toyotas.Cam sensors croak repeatedly any time they want.
" Starts without assistance to -10* " ummm,up to about 90K,then you gotta plug it in,and those heaters can chow some juice too.Cold start in winter,I was a firefighter then,it might start,but not go for a minute.
Wait until heating oil goes up in winter and the fuel savings dissapear.
My 250 sucked,repeated ball joints,power window motor died after a few months,cam sensors,broken leaf springs with loads I carried in a Tacoma before.POS.
Get a V-8,that's my advice.
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