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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 10, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
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Dude's not an American anymore.
He renounced his citizenship by waging war on America from foreign soil.
Read your passport. It tells you what not to do if you want to keep your American citizenship.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 10, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
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If you aren't an American you don't actually count as a person. I thought the Constitution made that clear.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 10, 2010 - 06:24pm PT
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Chaz,
Yes, you mean these laws:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html
Many within the Bush Administration commited treason, yet they are still citizens of the US (sadly).
So, you are ok with the immorality of the act of Assassination?
When did the Rule of Law end? When did we slide into the immorality and unethicalness of a Lawless Society?
"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
THEN THEY CAME for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant.
THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...
Assassination is immoral, unethical, and by most definitions illegal both domestically and internationally:
http://law.jrank.org/pages/541/Assassination-Assassination-law.html
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Apr 10, 2010 - 06:56pm PT
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if this is true.....
There may be hope for America after all.....
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Apr 10, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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You guys ever heard of "treason"?
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:58am PT
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Shoot him dead...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 11, 2010 - 01:04am PT
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To a few of the posts above...
Threats made to politicians have tripled in the past year or so. Would you object if we just assassinated that guy who was stalking Pelosi or phoning threats in to Democrats?
Isn't there room for abuse here? Didn't we have "proof" Iraq had WMDs and was hostile to us?
There's some cleric who makes speeches against the US but isn't prepared to do anything personally to kill anybody here. We say it's ok to kill him right? How is that any different than Obama threatening to use military force against some African or Mid-East country? Making speeches against Iran?
The policy of assassinating US Citizens make a mockery of the constitution the same way an LEO claiming "I smelled weed" falsely makes a mockery of probable cause in vehicle searches. When you have a plausible out for any crime of authority, then the intent of the law is fully defeated.
Obama is just as bad as Bush here and it's up to Democrats to call him on it
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/04/09-4
Peace
Karl
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 11, 2010 - 01:09am PT
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Does our law allow for any kind of law enforcement that involves the use of lethal force if the suspect does not surrender peacefully?
During war time or not?
(not that I know the answer off the top.)
There may be common law/case law to support that notion though. Common law is valid law if it hasn't been overturned.
Interesting turn of a question.
The obvious 'answer' is that if a LEO uses lethal force outside the scope of his or her job, then that's murder. The facts would determine the outcome.
Is assassination different from murder? I think so, but maybe not in the ways folks are thinking are important.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 11, 2010 - 01:15am PT
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There will always be assassinations in this age of hypocrisy and quarrel.
Always.
Only a naive person will think they can control the world independently.
There's no escape ....
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:00am PT
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Go ahead and stand on your principles...they'll be standing on the graves of your wives and children.
PS: Just out of curiosity how many of you "constitutional scholars" have engaged in armed combat ,aka CQC/CQB for a living?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 11, 2010 - 10:08am PT
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Coz wrote
Just wondering Karl, Klimmer, are you defending a cleric that is targeting and killing Americans?
Do you believe he is correct in doing so?
Coz, read Rockjox post. I agree with him.
It's not about this cleric. Have you studied this enough to know if this cleric has killed ANY americans or even targeted ANY Americans, or is he just like a thousand Christain preachers across the USA, only they get to the pulpit and advocate bombing Iran, or Iraq, in the name of their religious views?
I believe if we trash the constitution, eventually Democrats will use assassination to knock off Republicans for political power with thinly veiled excuses and visa-versa
One "enemy" doesn't matter. Did the government go through ANY due process in proving their case or justifying trying to kill this guy? How would anyone know how guilty he is nor not?
See rox post on the last page.
Funny, supertopo posters have been preaching hate and murder toward the people of Iraq (who never attacked us) and yet we see nothing in common with that murder speech and the speech of clerics in Africa
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 11, 2010 - 10:11am PT
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Watch the Oberman video at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDdWu6SmN3Y
From the Salon article someone linked above
"Just consider how the NYT reports on Obama's assassination order and how it is justified:
The Obama administration has taken the extraordinary step of authorizing the targeted killing of an American citizen, the radical Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, who is believed to have shifted from encouraging attacks on the United States to directly participating in them, intelligence and counterterrorism officials said Tuesday. . . .
American counterterrorism officials say Mr. Awlaki is an operative of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, the affiliate of the terror network in Yemen and Saudi Arabia. They say they believe that he has become a recruiter for the terrorist network, feeding prospects into plots aimed at the United States and at Americans abroad, the officials said.
It is extremely rare, if not unprecedented, for an American to be approved for targeted killing, officials said. A former senior legal official in the administration of George W. Bush said he did not know of any American who was approved for targeted killing under the former president. . . .
"The danger Awlaki poses to this country is no longer confined to words," said an American official, who like other current and former officials interviewed for this article spoke of the classified counterterrorism measures on the condition of anonymity. "He’s gotten involved in plots."
No due process is accorded. No charges or trials are necessary. No evidence is offered, nor any opportunity for him to deny these accusations (which he has done vehemently through his family). None of that.
Instead, in Barack Obama's America, the way guilt is determined for American citizens -- and a death penalty imposed -- is that the President, like the King he thinks he is, secretly decrees someone's guilt as a Terrorist. He then dispatches his aides to run to America's newspapers -- cowardly hiding behind the shield of anonymity which they're granted -- to proclaim that the Guilty One shall be killed on sight because the Leader has decreed him to be a Terrorist. It is simply asserted that Awlaki has converted from a cleric who expresses anti-American views and advocates attacks on American military targets (advocacy which happens to be Constitutionally protected) to Actual Terrorist "involved in plots." These newspapers then print this Executive Verdict with no questioning, no opposition, no investigation, no refutation as to its truth. And the punishment is thus decreed: this American citizen will now be murdered by the CIA because Barack Obama has ordered that it be done. What kind of person could possibly justify this or think that this is a legitimate government power?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 11, 2010 - 10:43am PT
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What Rokjox and Karl said above I agree with.
If he is guilty of these crimes. We are not really sure. They think he is doing these treasonious attrocities. If he truly is targeting Americans and having them killed, them capture him, and bring him to justice.
But to go out and with the wave of our hand and claim and announce his guilt and put a price on his head and assassinate him is no justice. It's abuse.
They could make anything up about him and then kill him.
You could be next. Let's just make something up about you. It could be anything. Let's call you a domestic terrorist and insurgent. Or how about an American with a "bad attitude" always questioning the abuses of your government, calling your government on the carpet, and participating in civil disobedience and practicing your freedom of speech right. Always speaking your mind. Always spouting "Dissent is Patriotic" etc. You are labelled a dissadent.
So, now the guv decides to "off" you. No trial by your peers, you are just announced guilty and then shot. Do you see the danger and the abuse of justice that is possible with this unethical and immoral choice of action?
First they came for the Cleric, and then they came for you . . .
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 11, 2010 - 11:02am PT
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I thought the whole idea of a War is to kill the enemy.
I don't see much difference between going after one specific guy or going after generic anonymous enemy combatants.
We've targeted specific individuals before.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Apr 11, 2010 - 11:15am PT
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Roxjox, that was one of your best posts ever. Although I am in sympathy with your views, I think I'm with Chief on this one anyway.
Phrased this way: If we had had the balls to assassinate Hitler when war was declared (if not sooner), how many innocent lives would have been spared?
Furthermore, in war, which is what exists here, to kill your enemy is not called an assassination, or even murder.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 11, 2010 - 11:22am PT
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Geez Chaz, what does "American Citizen living in Yemen" mean to you.
Did we declare war on Yemen? Did we even declare war? (although the constitution demands it)
You're not a Democrat...why do you hate America? Wouldn't things go better for Obama if he targeted you?
Here's the family denying the charges
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/01/10/yemen.al.awlaki.father/index.html
American Citizens have rights. Is it really so hard to see how the power to kill anybody without proof of guilt could easily be abused!!!!???
Sort of like those new homeland security laws that they started using against common drug dealers and finally used to track down democratic congressmen from Texas trying to avoid voting on redistricting.
It's a slipperly slope dude. Don't be a scared pussy throwing your rights away cause you're afraid of the terrorist bogeymen. How many people have died from terrorism in the US in the whole history of the country? Less than die of the flu in one year by FAR
Peace
Karl
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 11, 2010 - 11:38am PT
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Dude's not an American Citizen anymore.
He renounced his citizenship by waging war against America from foreign soil.
Read your passport, it'll tell you what not to do overseas if you want to keep your American Citizenship.
If Obama wants to kill this guy, I'll back him up on it.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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Coz,
We have good intelligence on you. You are a rap bolter. Having declared war on rap bolters, it is within my power to have YOU executed.
so be it..
Save the rock. Shoot a rap bolter..
WHAT??? You say you aren't a rap bolter???? You say you deserve a trial???
Too bad, we have good intelligence and you are been declared an enemy of the rock. You must die to save the rock.
By order of the supreme leader.
WHO is the supreme leader you say and where is the order????
Too bad.. for reasons of national security, you don't have the right to face your accuser.. This order is under protection and will not be disclosed for 60 years for national rock security reasons.
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