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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 22, 2005 - 12:23am PT
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Games Climbers Play
Lito Tejada-Flores
Reality is the apparent absence of contradiction
Louis Arragon, Le Paysan de Paris
Ascent 1967
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James
Social climber
My Subconcious
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Oct 22, 2005 - 07:06pm PT
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One of the better climbing articles written.
I would like to see it re-written.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Oct 22, 2005 - 07:50pm PT
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A terrific piece, but almost forty years later, it needs some rewriting. Lito didn't anticipate the social evolution of bouldering nor the growth in appeal of the sport. He also didn't anticipate sport-climbing (how could he have?), which seems not to fit into the telescoping hierarchy of restictions he uses to define games. The idea that the rules have to become ever more restrictive in order to preserve challenges in the face of improving technology simply doesn't apply, since sport climbers have embraced technology and abandoned the traditional rules for crag climbing in order to seek new challenges, ones that were never on the traditional climber's radar and which exceed what is possible in the games Lito describes.
Lito saw the spectrum of games as a linearly ordered set (note his definition of ethics in terms of it) but climbing has evolved into a partially ordered set, with all the "ethical" ambiguity that attends structures in which not all components are comparable.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2005 - 02:50am PT
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Somewhat dated, but it is a wonderful formulation of the problem, and the arguement forwarded contains the best description of ethics and style.
The evolution of climbing could not be entirely anticipated at the time, but there are still echos of Lito's vision reverberating off the cliffs.
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Hootervillian
climber
A bit north of Boring, OR
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Oct 23, 2005 - 01:24pm PT
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Vision? I'm having a hard time with his premise;
intricate, verbose, to be sure.
Hey, 'follow me', the original game: 10 yr. old, butt-naked on 'Bucket Roof' maybe even 'Sea of Holes'. Don't know for sure but just guessing none of that included "a series of don'ts'".
Only someone 'trying' to lay out the 'rules' of climbing could lay out the 'rules' of climbing.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Oct 28, 2005 - 08:06pm PT
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LongAgo comments on Lito's posted "Games Climbers Play"
 do styles forever advance as per Lito, leapfrog from one set game level to another, such as bouldering applied to crag climbing and alpine to expedition styles? Or has the history of rock climbing in last 20 years shown a fragmenting and blurring of styles, especially free climbing on "crags" and "big walls?"
if the latter is more the case, has one of the results been to cloud the assignment of merit (part of the climbing game - any game - like it or not), except in climbing competitions where rules are clear and fixed? If so, does that situation lead to constant tension between climbers competing for their place on the pages of magazines, in pictures and guidebooks? If so, how will histories yet to be written sort out who should be featured most and least prominently, what were the true turning points especially in free climbing, never mind who did what, when and how?
are style changes made mostly by Lito's "elite" encouraging others to apply improved styles from one game level to another? Or are style changes made by others of any era, not so much applying rules from one game to another, but changing rules altogether?
will some games "disappear" completely, such as the expedition game in favor of the super-alpine game, or are there other directions afoot, as in the big mountain game where Everest guides, fixed ropes (soon, huts?) make the game something else entirely?
outside of Lito's notion of "impressing" others by example to adopt or stay with certain styles, is there anything else climbers can or should do to guide the direction of styles?
For those interested in rock climbing styles, there is a dated work with a different take on directions. It is "Tricksters and Traditionalists: A Look At Conflicting Climbing Styles," Ascent, 1984, by another long ago type.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2005 - 08:36pm PT
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Tom,
that article is on the list to be added to the considerations of this meta-thread, but I don't have a copy readily available...
...perhaps steelmnkey does and could post it .. it was reprinted in Climbing 86 (page 18)
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Oct 28, 2005 - 11:48pm PT
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"Sometimes..." copying and pasting can be a good thing. Most times, it gives me a headache as well.
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